For Heaven's Sake – "Who's Afraid of a Palestinian State?"

Podcast: Shalom Hartman Institute x Ark Media
Date: November 19, 2025
Hosts: Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi

Episode Overview

This episode examines the deep-seated anxieties and complex hopes within Israeli society regarding the prospect of a Palestinian state. Against the backdrop of a dramatic UN Security Council vote backing the new Trump Gaza peace plan—specifically, its “credible pathway to Palestinian self-determination”—Donniel and Yossi reflect on what Israeli fears reveal about the nation’s political and moral crossroads. The conversation delves into the security, political, and emotional dimensions of Israeli attitudes, the role of the international community and regional powers, and the profound ambivalence that now shapes the Israeli approach to the two-state question.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Security Council Vote and Israel’s International Position

(02:18–07:09)

• Donniel opens by highlighting how most Israeli Jews are deeply afraid of the idea of a Palestinian state, yet the notion has all but vanished from domestic discourse.
• The UN Security Council vote, driven by the Trump administration, is deemed a seismic event, especially since “the man whom the Israeli right has embraced as the most pro Israel president in American history” (06:31) has now put a pathway to Palestinian self-determination on the table.
• Yossi describes a collective Israeli “shrug,” underscoring how detached and unprepared the public is: “We’re not even in the discussion. None of Israeli political parties talk about it.” (03:44)
• Both note the strangeness of Israel now being misaligned not just with Europe, but with the U.S. and the international community at large.

2. The Evolving Role of the U.S., Arab States, and Israeli Sovereignty

(05:45–10:46)

• Yossi reflects on the unprecedented nature of U.S. involvement (“America has established for all practical purposes a base inside Israel… we are guests”), triggering age-old fears about loss of sovereignty (08:22).
• There’s a parallel drawn between ancient Jewish history (Rome’s intervention in Judean affairs) and today’s perceived imposition by external powers—“historical trauma… triggered by the creation of this space and then reinforced by this vote” (07:15).
• Despite the loss of sovereignty anxieties, Yossi also sees the possibility of entering a regional framework via expanded Abraham Accords as “the most hopeful spin on this”—moving away from the “momentum toward a binational state, toward annexation.” (09:44)

3. The Two-State Solution: Religion, Zionism, and Moral Imperative

(10:46–14:00)

• Donniel reiterates his religious and Zionist commitment to a two-state solution, grounded in the Jewish principle of reciprocity and the right to national self-determination:

  “A Jewish faith which teaches me that what’s hateful unto you don’t do unto others. And a Zionism which claims the right of the Jewish people to sovereignty… I yearn religiously as a Jew and as a Zionist for a Palestinian state side by side.” (10:46)

• He laments that most Israelis have simply “stopped thinking about it. And I think one of the jobs of an international community, one of the jobs of press, one of the jobs of friends, is to expand the horizons of what an individual sees.” (12:44)

4. Israeli Security Fears Post–October 7th

(17:10–22:40)

• Yossi encapsulates widespread Israeli ambivalence:

  “I have two deep fears about a Palestinian state. The first is that there will be a Palestinian state, and the second is that there won’t be. The first opens up the possibility of insoluble security dilemmas… and I know that the absence of a Palestinian state will be disastrous in other ways. But what October 7th has done for me is intensify this ambivalence.” (17:22, 20:52)

• He details concrete, geography-driven concerns—rockets launched from the hills of the West Bank could paralyze Israel’s economic and cultural heartland.
• Both agree that “the factual debate is gone”—not even the Israeli left disputes these security concerns, setting a sharp contrast with the more distant, often idealistic perspectives of American or international actors (21:44).

5. The Blockage: Fear of Hope and Confusing Hope with Wishful Thinking

(28:45–32:10)

• Donniel suggests Israelis have not only lost faith in the feasibility of a Palestinian state, but even their capacity to hope:

  “I think we’re afraid to hope anymore. We lost the ability to live in reality and have hope at the same time.” (28:50)

• Yossi frames it as an aversion to wishful thinking and being “fooled again” after the collapse of the Oslo process and the trauma of October 7th:

  “There is this song by the 1960s band the Who, ‘we won’t get fooled again.’ … That really struck me as in some ways the motto of our generation of Israelis who invested great hope in the Oslo process. And it literally blew up in our faces.” (29:51)

• Both emphasize the conflation in Israel “between hope and wishful thinking,” which paralyzes conversation and initiative.

6. The Regional Dimension and the Abraham Accords

(16:32–17:10, 32:28–33:42, 38:13–40:13)

• The only plausible scenario for progress, both argue, is via the Abraham Accords and “a regional peace agreement with Israel”—with Saudi Arabia’s involvement pivotal:

  “…if the Saudis are speaking about a new Middle East, we have an obligation to take that seriously.” (33:30)

• Yossi underscores that the “possibility of a regional solution” is the new variable in the equation—if the Sunni Arab states join, the “possibility of trying to figure out how to contain the threat of a radical Palestinian state together with our Arab allies opens up all kinds of possibilities in terms of our security that were inconceivable.” (39:20)

7. Religious Zionist and Messianic Objections

(34:10–36:20)

• Donniel introduces a crucial additional axis of opposition:

  “That group which sees the land of Israel... their fear is that a Palestinian state will undermine the redemption of Israel. Redemption is connected to the land… They have an inordinate amount of power… touching the land has become taboo.” (34:10)

• Even though this group is maybe only “5% of society,” their influence pervades right-wing politics and helps create a cultural, almost religious, prohibition on compromise.

8. Is the Status Quo Sustainable?

(36:25–38:13)

• Donniel pushes back on the assumption that the current situation is safe or stable:

  “The assumption is that the status quo is safer and we’re all experts in knowing what could go wrong, as if what’s happening now is sustainable… Israel becoming pariah state is a security issue. Israel ignoring Palestinian national aspirations is not tenable now anywhere else in the world.” (36:25)

• He argues for “delicate balance”—recognizing multiple security threats, including those posed by inaction, not just by prospective change.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Yossi Klein Halevi:

  “I have two deep fears about a Palestinian state. The first is that there will be a Palestinian state, and the second is that there won’t be. The first opens up the possibility of insoluble security dilemmas. And I know that the absence of a Palestinian state will be disastrous in other ways.” (00:17; 17:22)

• Donniel Hartman:

  “I think we're afraid to hope anymore. We lost the ability to live in reality and have hope at the same time.” (28:50)

• On Israeli left’s security realism:

  “There’s no difference in Israeli left or in the peace camp... in our security analysis and our security concerns… That factual debate is gone.” (21:13)

• Yossi (on generational disillusionment):

  “There is this song by the 1960s band the Who, ‘we won’t get fooled again.’ … That really struck me as in some ways the motto of our generation of Israelis who invested great hope in the Oslo process. And it literally blew up in our faces.” (29:51)

• Donniel (on religious-Zionist fears):

  “Their fear is that a Palestinian state will undermine the redemption of Israel. Redemption is connected to the land of Israel.” (34:10)

• Yossi (on regional change):

  “If the Saudis come into the Abraham Accords, we are seeing the effective end of an 80 year Sunni war against Israel. Now that changes the security balance.” (38:13)

Important Timestamps

• 00:17 — Yossi on the dual fears regarding a Palestinian state
• 03:44 — Donniel: Israelis are “not in the discussion” on statehood
• 07:15 — Yossi: UN vote triggers “historical trauma” on sovereignty
• 10:46 — Donniel’s religious and Zionist case for statehood
• 17:22-20:52 — Yossi’s ambivalence post-October 7th (“two fears”)
• 21:13–21:44 — Both hosts: Israeli left’s realism on security concerns
• 28:50 — Donniel: “We’re afraid to hope”
• 29:51 — Yossi: “We won’t get fooled again” and post-Oslo skepticism
• 34:10–36:20 — The taboo of touching the land—religious-Zionist objections
• 38:13–40:13 — Yossi: The regional dimension is transformative

Tone & Style

The tone is candid, searching, at times deeply personal, and never far from dark humor (“I don’t know what to do with it, but I recognize it”). Donniel and Yossi speak as insiders grappling with existential questions, often voicing their own doubts, fears, and aspirations, while gently disagreeing for the sake of heaven.

Summary Takeaway

In this episode, Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi probe the tangled anxieties that grip Israelis when it comes to Palestinian statehood—fears sharpened by the trauma of October 7th, disillusionment with Oslo, and a surging influence of religious-messianic worldviews. Against this, they weigh the sliver of hope offered by a revived regional approach—with Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states as potential partners—that could offer not only security, but the possibility to dream anew. Yet, both agree: moving past paralysis will require reclaiming the capacity to hope—distinct from wishful thinking—and courage to keep trying, even without guarantees.