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- [00:00]
Advertiser
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- [01:21]
Elise Hu
Foreign.
- [01:32]
Dory Shafrier
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.
- [01:39]
Elise Hu
And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. And we are in the thick of midlife and menopause month here at Forever 35.
- [01:49]
Dory Shafrier
Oh, it's been a journey.
- [01:52]
Elise Hu
A very life affirming one.
- [01:54]
Dory Shafrier
A very life affirming journey. Our last guest in the series is going to be on the show next week to wrap up our series. And yeah, it's just, it's been really great. I've loved all the people we've gotten to talk to and everyone has brought just like different cool things to the.
- [02:17]
Elise Hu
Conversation if you haven't heard them all. We opened with Lynn Slater, the accidental fashion icon Lynn Slater, who is in her 70s. And then the adventurer slash former firefighter Caroline Paul, who is in her 60s. We've also had the Girls who Code founder Reshma Sajani. And today we have a really incredible guest too.
- [02:41]
Dory Shafrier
Really incredible guest. And also taking a little a little break from midlife and menopause. This Wednesday we have our annual gift guide episode.
- [02:53]
Elise Hu
It's kind of on theme because we should be treating ourselves this is true.
- [02:57]
Dory Shafrier
I will be treating myself. Yeah. So Elise and I put together a gift guide for this year with, you know, our typical wide range of Forever 35 approved gifts. So make sure to check that out on Wednesday. And for those of you who are Patreon subscribers, there will not be a casual chat this week. We are off for Thanksgiving. But we will be back casually chatting next week.
- [03:27]
Elise Hu
Yes, we'll be back next Friday.
- [03:29]
Dory Shafrier
Well, Elise, how's it going?
- [03:31]
Elise Hu
I'm looking forward to having a little time off. And I'm doing that thing that we recommended in one of the recent Mini Epps in which I am not preparing a turkey. I ordered one, so I'm feeling really good about that.
- [03:46]
Dory Shafrier
That is. That is truly the way to go if you are hosting. Honestly, it's like, it's too much work.
- [03:55]
Elise Hu
It can be. I mean, sometimes I really enjoy it because it's bonding to spend time with your family members in the kitchen. But I don't have family coming in this year because we're traveling to them for the next holiday, for the Christmas winter break. So it's going to be kind of a quiet one, and I need it. I need the rest.
- [04:13]
Dory Shafrier
I just always find that, like, you have to plan it out so carefully because so many things are being cooked at the same time.
- [04:22]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [04:23]
Dory Shafrier
That, like, if I'm cooking a turkey in my oven, I don't have room to cook anything else. So, like.
- [04:29]
Emily Nagoski
Right.
- [04:29]
Dory Shafrier
When are you cooking the Brussels sprouts? When are you cooking the stuff? Like, all those things you just. I mean, I see people with, like, spreadsheets, sheets, and, like. I mean, it's just.
- [04:39]
Elise Hu
It's a whole timing. It's a math problem.
- [04:41]
Dory Shafrier
Yeah, it is. And I will say Thanksgiving is one of those meals that Matt usually, like, takes the lead on. He usually cooks the turkey and kind of handles a lot of it. But I think we also are going to just get Thanksgiving from somewhere nearby. Maybe Whole Foods or Bristol Farms or something.
- [05:07]
Elise Hu
It is forever 35 approved. There's no shame in it. There's no shame.
- [05:12]
Dory Shafrier
There's no shame. Yeah. I just. I keep thinking about our listener who was asking about how to have, like, traditions, holiday traditions, when it's just you and your, like, small family. So I don't know. I've been thinking about that a lot.
- [05:29]
Elise Hu
Yeah. Well, it only takes, what, one extra time beyond the first time to make it a tradition, so you can just be making.
- [05:38]
Dory Shafrier
That is so true.
- [05:39]
Elise Hu
Exactly. It's never. It's never too late.
- [05:42]
Dory Shafrier
That is so true. I love I love thinking about it like that. Well, Elise, I feel like we should just get to our guest because we had such an amazing conversation with her.
- [05:52]
Elise Hu
She's full of knowledge and hilarious as well. And also going through perimenopause. Our guest today and She's a previous Forever 35 guest. She is.
- [06:05]
Dory Shafrier
She's a repeat guest.
- [06:07]
Elise Hu
That's right. Her name is Emily Nagaski. She is the well known sex educator who began her career in 1995 when she became a peer health educator at the University of Delaware. She is trained to teach all about stress, nutrition, physical activity and above all, sex. She went to Indiana University for her Master's and continued on to earn her PhD in health behavior with a concentration in human sexuality. For eight years she worked as a lecturer and director of wellness education at Smith College before transitioning to full time writing and speaking. You might know her from her book Burnout, which she wrote with her sister, the secret to unlocking the stress cycle. She's also written a book called Come as you are and most recently the book come together the science and art art of creating lasting sexual connections. She's also become somewhat of an expert on the menopausal transition. So we were delighted to talk to her and just get a wealth of her knowledge.
- [07:12]
Dory Shafrier
She was so great. Before we get to her, I just want to remind everyone that you can find everything we mentioned on the show at our website forever35podcast.com we're also on Instagram @forever35podcast. We post clips of our guest interviews every week. Our patreon is at patreon.com forever35. We also have our favorite products at shopmy us/forever35. And you can sign up for our newsletter forever35 podcast.com newsletter and just a reminder that we do take listener questions, comments, feedback, concerns, all the things. You can call or text us at 781-591-0390 or you can email us at forever35podcastmail.com and here is Emily. Emily, welcome back to Forever35. I we had you and your sister on, gosh, I don't know, five years ago. It was a while ago.
- [08:11]
Emily Nagoski
Was it pre pandemic?
- [08:13]
Dory Shafrier
I think, I think it was. I think it was pre pandemic.
- [08:16]
Emily Nagoski
It's amazing how much has changed and yet how little has changed, right?
- [08:21]
Dory Shafrier
Yes, indeed. As you know, we like to start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that that they have. So we're wondering, is there anything right now, especially given the events of the last couple of weeks that you are doing that you would consider self care.
- [08:40]
Emily Nagoski
Let me set a frame around this. Assuming Project 2025 is the agenda, which just looking very much like it is pornography, is going to be defined as anything that includes LGBTQIA two plus people, which is literally all of my work. And Project 2025 on page, I believe three calls for the banning of all what they call pornography, which is to say just like LGBTQIA two plus people and all of the media that includes and welcomes them, that's all pornography. The people who make it should be imprisoned and the librarians and booksellers who shelve it should be registered sex offenders. And so should people who make it. So what I'm looking at a world where within a year I could be going door to door to my neighbors and introducing myself. Hello, I'm a registered sex offender. So that's, that's, that's my world right now. Yeah, there are a lot of people in my life whose livelihoods and lives are under pretty much immediate threat. That is not a level of safety that is tolerable by human nervous system.
- [10:01]
Dory Shafrier
Yeah.
- [10:02]
Emily Nagoski
And I want to like level set for people. Like if you're feeling that level of like this is not okay. That is an accurate assessment of how not okay this is. So my self care is breathing in and breathing out, noticing the state of my system. There's a model of our nervous system's response to the external world. It's called the polyvagal theory by Stephen Borges. You've probably heard of it. It proposes that there are basically three states that our nervous system can be in. There's the ventral state, which is when you've got activation of the ventral vagus, the, the facial social connected branch of your vagus, where your tenth cranial nerve, where you feel connected and safe enough and loving and peaceful. And Jo, there is the sympathetic vagus, the second branch of the 10th cranial nerve, where your fight or flight stress response lives. This is when you don't feel safe. Your heart rate increases, your blood pressure increases, your immune system is suppressed, your digestive system is suppressed. One of the difficult things about being in a long term stress state is that your health erodes gradually because you're not supposed to stay in that state for a long time. Your body's not designed for it. And then there's the third vagal branch, which is the dorsal branch, which is shut down, which is where flop happens, where you like can't get out of bed. You just shut down. I don't know if this might sound familiar to you, but I've had moments where, you know, I get into a sympathetic activated state and I write 2,000 words in one sitting. And then I'm like, I need to eat something. I wander into the kitchen and I just stand there like with like just staring at a wall. And that's. I'm like, oh, that's very. That is fascina. Let me notice how my body has transitioned out of sympathetic and into dorsal. It needs rest. When your body does that, your body is calling for rest. There's a book that was just released, this beautiful, gorgeous, inspiring book by Tricia Hersey called We Will Rest the Art of Escape. She's a trickster and she wrote a much more comprehensive book called Rest is Resistance. But this smaller book, I think I'm going to read it every day for the foreseeable future.
- [12:34]
Elise Hu
Thank you, Emily. It's just so well timed that you're with us and we are spending the entire month of November talking about midlife and menopause and just aging and all the questions that come with it. You are.
- [12:47]
Emily Nagoski
It will be such a relief to talk about menopause.
- [12:49]
Elise Hu
Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. That's where we're at. That's where we're at. You're the perfect guest because you are both a well known and trusted sex therapist and researcher. But you've also mentioned to me that you are in perimenopause yourself.
- [13:09]
Emily Nagoski
Oh yeah.
- [13:10]
Elise Hu
So can we start with just definitions? I have questions like is menopause a process or is it a single event? And how do we know if we're in perimenopause? And I guess menopause previously was just defined as the cessation of your period. But just kind of give us some definitions, some baseline to begin with.
- [13:27]
Emily Nagoski
So the technical definition of menopause is when you have gone 12 months in a row without any menstruation. Okay. Jen Gunter, in her book about menopause, tells the story of going 11 months. Like she gets to 11 months and then she's traveling internationally and she gets her period and she's like abroad and has to go like to like a pharmacy in Italy and get pads. So yeah, suddenly she does a start her 12 month counter all over again. It's a delight. That's technically, technically you've gotten to menopause when you've gone 12 full months without a period. Perimenopause is this extended period, length of time, anywhere from a couple of years to a dozen years where you have an increasing irregularity of your menstrual cycle for most people. So I have an identical twin and I am on the pill, so I. I get zero period at all.
- [14:33]
Elise Hu
Same.
- [14:33]
Emily Nagoski
So I will not know technically when I am fully perimenopausal. And the medical advice is just stay on the pill until you're 55.
- [14:45]
Elise Hu
Oh, I didn't know that. All right.
- [14:47]
Emily Nagoski
That is the standard that I have read and that my medical provider has talked to me about. But I'm also watching Amelia's period tracking. Amelia's is off the cloud. So I'm watching. And there has not been one period skipped yet. And we're 47. So when perimenopause.
- [15:08]
Elise Hu
Yeah, I was going to say, how has it been for you in retrospect?
- [15:13]
Emily Nagoski
I could see perimenopause begin around 41. I didn't recognize it until I had my first hot flash, which happened at the Orlando airport in the TSA line in February of 2020. I was on my way home from the last gig, it would turn out traveling for the year. And I was standing in the line and I was suddenly like, is it really hot in this airport? Like, they usually like, it's kind of like chilly in, like the way they can like the Florida, like, very highly air conditioned, usually. I was so sweaty, I went into the bathroom, I took off my shirt, I pulled off my bra and I threw it out. Because not only was it wet, it stank in a way that was deeply unfamiliar. And it does turn out that our body odor changes with perimenopause. That's something I learned.
- [16:10]
Elise Hu
Oh, wow. Exciting. It's a delight.
- [16:14]
Dory Shafrier
Wow.
- [16:17]
Emily Nagoski
Look, it's not fun, but it is hilarious.
- [16:20]
Elise Hu
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're hilarious about it.
- [16:22]
Emily Nagoski
I intimate in the Orlando airport, stripping off your bra, being like, what happened to you?
- [16:31]
Dory Shafrier
So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back.
- [16:35]
Elise Hu
Foreign.
- [16:40]
Dory Shafrier
Let'S make a resolution to save more money in 2025. I gotta say, every year we make resolutions. Some we stick to, some we don't. I've tried to keep my desk clean and yeah, never quite make it through the year, never quite make it through the month. But when you can make things automatic, that's how you make resolutions stick. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids and your retirement. With just five minutes, you can set up a healthy money habit that takes others years to learn. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now. You can start with $5 or even just your spare change. You don't need to feel like financial wellness is impossible. Acorns gives you small, simple steps to get you and your money on track. Head to acorns.comforever35 or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid client Endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier one compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View Important disclosures@acorns.com Forever35 this episode is.
- [17:58]
Elise Hu
Brought to you by Better Help December is all about getting cozy. I already feel cozy, whether it means warm beverages, soft blankets, or time with your loved ones. And I think you should consider adding therapy to your list too, if you're not already seeing a therapist. Knowing I can talk to somebody about anything has always been a comfort to me. When I'm in therapy, learning coping skills, boundary setting, or even just a little bit more about myself brings me comfort. It's also helped me grow over the years to better know myself. It's strengthened my relationships. It is comfort that never goes away, even when the season changes. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, you can give better help a try. It's entirely online. It's designed to be convenient and flexible. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Find comfort this December with better help. Visit betterhelp.com forever35 today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com forever35.
- [19:05]
Advertiser
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- [20:20]
Dory Shafrier
Why do you think it's important for people to be aware that they're in perimenopause?
- [20:27]
Emily Nagoski
Oh, recognizing that things that are happening to your body and your mind are normal. Because it, it can feel like you're going crazy.
- [20:40]
Dory Shafrier
Right?
- [20:41]
Emily Nagoski
You are not going crazy. This is just like a really bonkers banana pants phase of life for anybody who's got a uterus.
- [20:51]
Elise Hu
Yeah, I feel like it's still pretty new. Or within the past maybe five years where people have talked about perimenopause at all or that this transition is something that can be happening over the course of five to 10 to 12 years.
- [21:06]
Emily Nagoski
Yeah. We now live in a world where a lot of young people get sat down by a parent and say, you know, puberty is coming. You can expect these changes, but how many of us have a parent set us down and say, you know, perimenopause is coming. Here are the changes you can expect. I didn't get that. And what I can say is that Gen X is doing a bang up job of making sure that the generations that follow us do not have to go through the same kind of bullshit that our boomer parents went through. Like what my mother went through with hormone treatment and stuff. Like, I'm not gonna have to do all that st because the science is getting better, the education is getting better, and the gender inclusivity is getting vastly better. The single best. But I have read, I think, all the books on perimenopause and the best one is Heather Corinna's what Fresh Hell Is this?
- [22:07]
Dory Shafrier
What an amazing title, right Title, Great title. How do you. How should. How should people with uteruses approach the conversation about perimenopause or menopause with their medical providers? Like, what are the questions that they should be asking?
- [22:26]
Emily Nagoski
If you're having symptoms, ask if they are typical. If you are having, for example, hot flashes, ask like, what is the typical frequency of hot flashes? How long can I expect this to last? What are interventions that have a low risk of unwanted consequences or side effects that are likely actually to be effective? There are not a lot for hot flashes. Sleep is one of the in burnout. Amelia and I wrote about sleep and we Included a little bit about how that changes in perimenopause and menopause. And then I got there, and I was like, oh, fuck this. I went multiple years without sleeping through the night.
- [23:10]
Dory Shafrier
Wow.
- [23:11]
Emily Nagoski
Yeah, wow.
- [23:13]
Elise Hu
Now you recognize that it was a perimenopausal symptom.
- [23:16]
Emily Nagoski
At first, I didn't realize that. I thought, well, it happened at the same time as the pandemic. So the two things were really tangled up with each other. And I was like, I'm just stressed out because it's 2020, and which is probably part of it was that. And then it just kept going for years. And I kept talking to my therapist and my psychiatrist and my medical providers. I got Covid, and then I got long Covid. So I talked to my long Covid provider, and I finally found a medication that has helped me to sleep through the night sometimes. And that's great. And it turns out also my long Covid provider suggested that progesterone, low progesterone is one hormonal potential cause for the changes in sleep. So talk to a medical provider about things like sleep, which is so fundamentally important to our overall health if you are having those difficulties. Talk to a medical provider if you are having genital urinary symptoms. So I experienced both pain with vaginal intercourse and delightful urinary incontinence, where I would feel like I had finished peeing. But then as I sat up, as I stood up from the toilet, little extra splurp enough to make my panties, like, unpleasantly wet. Then I went to my ob GYN for my standard checkup. And because I am the person that I am, my nurse practitioner talks to me in ways, maybe she doesn't talk to other patients. And she said, wow, Emily, vaginal rugi are really flat for you, being 45, I'm going to prescribe. So your vagina is actually like, not a flat surface on either side either.
- [25:03]
Elise Hu
On the walls of the vagina.
- [25:04]
Emily Nagoski
It's really, like, folded and wrinkly and, like, juicy and lush, Right? And as you like, part of what happens with the reduction in estrogen is that those ridges flatten out and, oh, no.
- [25:20]
Elise Hu
The topography changes.
- [25:21]
Emily Nagoski
The topography changes.
- [25:24]
Elise Hu
Oh, but I love my vagina as it is.
- [25:28]
Emily Nagoski
And you can learn to love it as a menopausal vagina also.
- [25:32]
Elise Hu
Okay.
- [25:32]
Emily Nagoski
And it can be really helpful. People's mileage may vary, but adding estrogen in some form can be really helpful for all of the genital urinary symptoms that people can experience. So, for example, I got a prescription for vaginal estradiol. So I, like, squirt a tube of white cream into my veju every few days, and the urinary incontinence went away. And after a couple of weeks, the pain with intercourse went away. Because the other piece of it is that the tissue that lines the vagina becomes really fragile and can tear, which is what causes the pain. And although there is no specific hormonal cause cause for, like, a decrease in sexual desire or arousal, you can imagine that if you experience pain with intercourse, that's going to reduce your interest, because it makes sense not to want sex that hurts. If you're experiencing unwanted pain, talk to a medical provider about a medical intervention.
- [26:39]
Elise Hu
Well, this is perfect because I wanted to talk about the sex of it all, and I'd love to know what this particular transition, these changes due to our experiences of sexual arousal and pleasure and all the things that you're an expert in.
- [26:57]
Emily Nagoski
So context, right, Is the. Is the big thing. Whether or not our brain interprets any sensation as pleasurable depends on the context in which we're experiencing it. The. My usual example is tickling. Right. Not everybody loves tickling is some people's favorite thing, but it's not everybody's favorite thing. Some people, there's no context where they, like, like it. But for a lot of people, if you're already feeling, like, flirty, playful, sexy, connected, aroused, trusting, loving with a certain special someone, and they tickle you, that could feel fun and pleasurable and, you know, like, you want to lead to other things. But if that same certain special someone tickles you when you're in the middle of an argument.
- [27:40]
Elise Hu
Yeah. Then it's like, don't touch.
- [27:41]
Emily Nagoski
It's the same sensation, right. It's the same certain special someone. Because your mental state is different, the way your brain interprets that sensation is completely opposite.
- [27:52]
Elise Hu
Right?
- [27:53]
Dory Shafrier
Yeah.
- [27:54]
Emily Nagoski
So what's important to recognize is that menopause is a massive change in context. Your body is changing. And like a lot of millennials, y'all are coming up behind me. I'm the tail end of Gen X. Born in 1977, have done a lot of really intensive, profound work on loving their bodies, on being able to look in the mirror at the parts of themselves that they were taught for so many years they're supposed to feel ashamed of, but they can look at those parts and be like, no, I love me. I'm so grateful for the fricking fracking miracle that is my body. The one and only thing I will have with me on the day I die that I had with me on the day I was born. And then five years from now, it's all going to be different. And you got to start from scratch. You got to do the same process. Because if. If you feel, like, great about a partner and their touch and they touch your belly and you feel great about your belly, that sensation, your brain's going to interpret it as pleasurable. But if you feel great about your partner and great about their touch and they touch your belly and you don't feel great about this very different belly, that's gonna hit your sexual brakes. And there's nothing. There's no, like, hormonal change that happened. What happened is your body changed. And you live in a culture that told you your body's not supposed to ever fucking change. It's definitely not supposed to age. And so you, each of us as individuals and all of us as a collective have to battle against that and make the ch that our bodies are excellent precisely as they are today. I don't want to make it sound like people need to be frickin superheroes and, like, love every change of their bodies. Like, you love your vagina the way it is. You don't want it to change. I felt that way about my boobs. And, like, gravity wins. That's just real. And instead of, like, going through, like, all the deep emotional work of, like, learning to love my boobs as they are now, I just put on a bra. I put them up where they used to be. Yeah, I just. And. And then I don't have to have to worry about it. Then I feel good about my boobs because they're where I'm used to them being. And that feels awesome. Like, don't be a hero. You. You can also use the tools at your disposal to just make it a little easier.
- [30:29]
Elise Hu
Yeah. Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.
- [30:38]
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- [31:19]
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- [32:05]
Elise Hu
In your latest book, Come Together, you write about how we shouldn't even be pursuing passion or that idea of trying to keep the spark alive as we are aging or we're in a relationship for a longer period of time. So that is kind of the sex advice that comes from a lot of books, right? Like, like, reignite your passion, but instead you argue that we should pursue pleasure. Yeah, I'd love for you to clarify the difference between pleasure and then the spark. Right.
- [32:38]
Emily Nagoski
So tell me if this sounds like a familiar narrative to you. I call it the. The desire imperative. Early on in a relationship, you're supposed to have this, like, super hot and heavy, can't wait to get my hands on you, can't wait to put my tongue in your mouth feeling. Yeah. And then like, like that's a reason why you stay together. And gradually, over time, life gets complicated and maybe you, like, buy a fixer upper house or you have kids or jobs get complicated or whatever happens. And sex sort of like, drops down on the priority list. And then you get to a time like menopause, and apparently all of your sexuality just drifts away on the sea of your hormones, leaving you to, like, hold hands with your partner at sunset on a beach or whatever the fuck or supposed to do.
- [33:27]
Elise Hu
And just be clear, this is the cultural narrative.
- [33:29]
Emily Nagoski
This is the cultural bullshit narrative that we have been sold, and I do mean sold, because our options, if this is the real narrative, our options are either just like, give up on sexuality. And let me be clear, there are absolutely some people who get to menopause and are like, don't have to worry about that anymore. Don't have to worry about being sexual anymore. It's off the table. And then there are other people who are like, I want sexuality still to be a part of my life. And we're told that we should invest our time and energy and money in trying to keep that spark alive. To, like, light that spark, to make it like it was early on in the Relationship. And what I want to say is when you look at the actual research on people who sustain a strong sexual connection over the long term, they do not talk about spark. They don't talk about feeling horny. Sexual desire barely scrapes into the top 10 characteristics of extraordinary magnificent sex. The people who have extraordinary sex talk about authenticity, vulnerability, empathy. Empathy, empathy, connection, pleasure. And it makes sense even at the really surface level that, like, oh, yeah, it's a lot easier to be interested in having sex that you like, and it's not a dysfunction not to want sex you don't like.
- [35:04]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [35:04]
Emily Nagoski
So when we center pleasure instead of desire, all of the other puzzle pieces fall into place. I'm not saying this is an easy transition to make. And in particular, for people who were raised their entire lives to believe that their pleasure doesn't matter, that their body is there to be of service to their partner. And. And after all this time, maybe they've been having sex and they're not 100% sure they could recognize pleasure in their body if it happened. Those are folks who are going to have to be starting from basic questions like, what does pleasure feel like for me?
- [35:44]
Elise Hu
Okay.
- [35:44]
Emily Nagoski
And then there's other people who are going to be like, I know what pleasure feels like. And, yeah, I had friends. This is a real thing that really happened to me about 10 years ago at had was visiting some friends. They had seven academic degrees between them and two children under five. And they were like, out of curiosity, Emily, how do couples sustain a strong sexual connection over the long term? And I told them the advice that I have income as you are, which is, forget about spontaneous desire. Let it be responsive. You know, you put your body in the bed, you let your skin touch your partner's skin, and a lot of the time, your body's gonna go, oh, right, I really like this. I really like this person. And it turns out people who sustain a strong sexual connection, this is what a lot of their sex life looks like. They show up in a good enough state, they let their skin touch, and they go like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, this is really good. And so as I'm saying this, I'm like, I do my. Like, you let your skin touch your partner's skin. The wife in this hetero relationship pushes away from the T table with a disgusted face, like, at the idea of letting her skin touch her husband's skin. And I was like, okay, so there's your problem. The problem is not that you don't desire sex. The problem is you don't like the sex that's available in this relationship, and that is a deeper conversation.
- [37:17]
Elise Hu
Yeah, that's a whole different conversation.
- [37:18]
Emily Nagoski
That's a whole other sitch. And I wrote the book because writing come as you are. My first book was so stressful that even though I was thinking about sex and writing about sex and learning about sex all day, every day, I was so stressed that I lost all interest in actually having any sex.
- [37:39]
Elise Hu
Right.
- [37:39]
Emily Nagoski
In my case, like, I really wanted to want sex in a way that.
- [37:45]
Elise Hu
You gave yourself a hard time about it, if I recall from the book.
- [37:48]
Emily Nagoski
Because you were sort of like, out of my expert. I'm expert here. This is supposed to be easy. I'm supposed to know how to do this. And I tried to follow my own advice. I put my body in the bed. I let my skin touch my partner's skin, and I burst into tears and then fell asleep. But I knew that if I could just get there, wherever there was, I was gonna like it. One of the benefits of being a sex educator is that I do actually really like the sex available to me in my relationship. Like, I would not stay in a relationship where I wasn't able to create joyous, connected, playful, wonderful sex. So the solution for me is different from the solution for someone who doesn't like the sex.
- [38:33]
Elise Hu
So we're having you on for midlife and menopause month. But as I'm hearing you talk, do you give different advice as a sex educator to young people versus older people?
- [38:43]
Emily Nagoski
My. For older people, I mostly talk about, like, hey, bodies change. That's reality. It is. The ones who get old are the lucky ones, as an anthropologist friend of mine says, because she died at 55, because the ones who get old are the lucky ones. And to frame watching their partner's body change and allowing their partner to watch their body change, frame that as a privilege and a delight and a pleasure. Occasionally I get asked but, like, what if I'm not attracted to my partner anymore? I have been to a lot of, like, maternal health conferences, for example, and there's generally, like, a partner panel. It's a lot of dads.
- [39:34]
Elise Hu
No. Okay.
- [39:35]
Emily Nagoski
There's also a lot of, like, parents, co parents of other genders, but a lot of dads. And almost always all of those dads say, either I didn't even notice the changes that she's worried about, or they say, I love it. I love everything about what changed. I so hot is so hot. She's so hot. My wife is so hot. So I believe that almost all the time when you look at your partner's body, you're looking through lenses that are. That are tinted by the quality of your relationship. So if you really like your partner, if you really enjoy them as a person, you trust and admire them. If you are grateful to be their partner, when you look at them, you're gonna see all those feelings, and you're gonna like what you see.
- [40:26]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [40:27]
Emily Nagoski
But if you are frustrated and annoyed and you feel like they're not there for you, so it's hard to trust them, then what you see, you're not gonna like, no matter what it is.
- [40:41]
Dory Shafrier
Emily, before we let you go, we would love to know what you have kind of learned so far in your own aging journey and how are you kind of thinking about it as you get older? And I should also say, I think we're exactly the same age. I was also born in 1977, so everything you're saying, I, I feel like I especially relate to.
- [41:05]
Elise Hu
That's Dory's solidarity.
- [41:07]
Dory Shafrier
That's my solidarity.
- [41:10]
Elise Hu
No, but, yeah, we just love.
- [41:11]
Emily Nagoski
We're.
- [41:11]
Dory Shafrier
We're.
- [41:12]
Emily Nagoski
So you too were in the sixth grade when Kokomo was a big deal.
- [41:15]
Dory Shafrier
Yes.
- [41:16]
Elise Hu
What's Kokomo?
- [41:18]
Dory Shafrier
And I also. I mean, you probably dance to the Humpty Dance on your, your eighth grade dance.
- [41:23]
Emily Nagoski
Absolutely. Cool kids. All right, back up. Cool kids.
- [41:27]
Elise Hu
I know the Macarena. I had Macarena.
- [41:31]
Emily Nagoski
I'm pretty sure I was in college when the Macarena happened.
- [41:35]
Elise Hu
Yeah, I'm only like five years younger than y'all, but yeah, I guess it is kind of a different, different 8th grade experience. For sure.
- [41:43]
Dory Shafrier
You're elder millennial. You're an elder millennial. And we are like tail end of Gen X. So it is, it's a different. It's a different situation.
- [41:52]
Elise Hu
We have different cultural touchstones.
- [41:54]
Emily Nagoski
People 10 years ahead of us. The 57 year olds now.
- [41:58]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [41:58]
Emily Nagoski
Are like, they're doing the work for us. They have really made big, positive changes so that we are menopause into a world that is more accepting of our aging bodies. Omishade, Bernie Scott and the Black Girl's Guide to Surviving Menopause is a spectacular resource course in every social media platform. I've been waiting for a book. I don't know if there's going to be a book, but I would love for there to be a book that and what fresh hell is this? Are my two favorite menopause resources. And it's not a coincidence that one is a black woman and one is a non binary person. Like these resources being led by people who are like no, no, no. We're cracking open space for like more than just like the cis, what white middle class women.
- [42:50]
Elise Hu
Yeah, we will be sure to link to those. But yeah, reflect for us a little bit. Emily.
- [42:54]
Emily Nagoski
It's so complicated because there's this overlap with COVID and because I have long Covid, it's overlapping with being disabled, physically disabled for the first time in my life. And so I have just sort of been awash in confrontation with the expectations I had for my body that it no longer meets like the physical strength that it had that Covid took, the pliability of my vaginal tissues, that perimenopause has taken my sleep. Oh my God. Oh my God, the sleep. And so, so like I have Talked over the 30 years of my career a big game about turning with kindness and compassion toward the difficult parts of yourself and practicing self compassion. And I have been called on to be compassionate and patient with my own body in brand new and profound ways. Like, like, like being, accept accepting toward my body when I go to do something that was easy 10 years ago and my body just doesn't do it anymore, either because of menopause or because of the physical disability of long Covid. And like I have, there's this like big combination of anger at what I lost and grief at what I lost and hope that maybe some of it can be restored, but also despair. Like what if, what if it never comes back? And can I love the body that I have now? And so you're talking to me at a inflection point in my relationship with my own body in a lot of big ways. And boy am I glad I have the background that I have because I'm not sure how I would do it it if I didn't already have like a long established practice of noticing my state and being non judgmental about it. Being like being like, yeah, I have a, I have a feeling about this change that's happening and I'm allowed to have that feeling and that feeling is not permanent. And what if I tried to lean a little bit in the direction of feeling affectionate toward this change? I'm just going to do it really gently. I'm not going to try to like force myself to put on a happy face and say this is all great, what a treat, what a delight. How much I love this. No, I'm going to, I'm going to be really gentle and patient and kind with myself the way I would be. You know, our dog is 15 years old and you know, she gets up Slow. And she goes up and down the stairs slow. And. And I could get impatient with her and be like, come on, thunder. Come up the stairs. Or I could be like, it is a treasure and a gift. Every single day, I get to watch this dog trundle slowly up and down the stairs, and I'm gonna love every little step that she takes. And, like, the way she tilts her head. Cause she couldn't quite hear me, but she thinks I said carrot. Like, what a gift I'm gonna be as I'm gonna try to treasure myself as much as I treasure my dog.
- [46:27]
Elise Hu
Well, Emily, thank you for being so open and vulnerable with us during this inflection time. And hopefully it was, in some way, you know, nourishing for you too.
- [46:36]
Emily Nagoski
I feel like it's the only way that I can turn because I do feel so privileged to bring to my own experience my background as a sex educator and as a women's health advocate. And if it's this hard for me, and it is hard for me, but, like, what would it be like if I didn't have these resources? So I'm. I feel like it is absolutely a gift to me for me to be able to talk about this in hopes that it might help somebody else be like, oh, that's normal. And I should go to the doctor and get some vagina cream. Yes, indeed. Get you some estradiol.
- [47:19]
Elise Hu
Let's end on that note. Where do folks find you? Where do folks find you? Emily Nagoski.
- [47:24]
Emily Nagoski
Emily Nagoski.com. you can sign up for my substack. Sometimes I'm on Instagram, but social media is hard.
- [47:33]
Dory Shafrier
Don't I know it. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was great, as always, to get to talk to you.
- [47:41]
Emily Nagoski
It's truly, genuinely my pleasure.
- [47:47]
Dory Shafrier
Well, she was great. And as someone who was Also born in 1977, I feel like we have that.
- [47:55]
Elise Hu
You share the same Chinese zodiac sign.
- [47:58]
Dory Shafrier
Yeah, we have that unique perspective. 1977 was one of the, like, baby bust years. So there's actually, like, not that many of us.
- [48:07]
Elise Hu
Oh, cool. Solidarity.
- [48:10]
Dory Shafrier
Solidarity from 1977. 70s, mid to late 70s babies. You know, there just been, like, the oil crisis. Like, it was a weird time. It was a weird time.
- [48:24]
Emily Nagoski
Car.
- [48:25]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [48:25]
Dory Shafrier
Yeah.
- [48:27]
Elise Hu
Inflation was through the roof.
- [48:29]
Dory Shafrier
Yeah. Everyone's like, I'm not gonna have a kid. I mean, it's kind of reminiscent of, like, the state of the world. Although I would argue right now it's probably worse anyway. Maybe we're. Well, I mean, the birth rate has Been going down, so.
- [48:40]
Elise Hu
That's, that's true.
- [48:43]
Dory Shafrier
Anyway, enough about that. Intentions.
- [48:46]
Elise Hu
Yes. How did you do with your intention last week?
- [48:50]
Dory Shafrier
Week, you know, I did. Okay. I, I will say, like, I'm still, I. I am still having those, like, moments of gratitude. Like, every time I play tennis, it's like, very interesting, especially if I play during the day. Like, just like looking up at the Southern California, like, very blue sky. And I played a match on Sunday in the San Gabriel Valley, and it was these courts that were kind of just like plopped down in the middle. Like, I could like, see a mountain range. Like, it was just very, like very, very peaceful, except for the plinking sound of pickleball coming from neighboring courts because they converted half the courts into pickleball court. So other than that, it was very peaceful and lovely. But, yeah, I have been, I've been having that. That feeling a lot lately, which, you know, know just trying to take it day by day. And then this week, I mean, this week is like one of those weeks where I'm like, okay, family in town, Thanksgiving, kid is off school. Like, there's just going to be a lot to kind of get through. And similar to last week, I don't, like, I simultaneously want to be like, okay, I just have to get through this. But I also want to appreciate. I mean, it is Thanksgiving, you know, I want to like, appreciate that I have family coming into town and. Right. You know, so it's, it's like a, It's a balancing act, I would say.
- [50:25]
Elise Hu
Yeah. I feel like I should try and put up holiday direct decorations early. This is not my intention, but because we have all this time off from school, maybe that's an activity I can do.
- [50:37]
Dory Shafrier
Oh, yeah.
- [50:37]
Elise Hu
I'm very stressed about what I'm supposed to do with my kids without travel or school. This is really occupying my brain space. But last week, just to check in on intentions. Yeah, I'm trying to stay on assignment here. Last week, my intention was to journal every day and I made it. Even though some of the days that I was journaling it was like three or four sentences, like, perform my. Performed the wedding, did it.
- [51:05]
Dory Shafrier
That's okay.
- [51:06]
Elise Hu
You know, I just. But I feel like I was kind of doing it in a perfunctory way to make sure that I did it. So maybe I need to put a little bit more heart into it.
- [51:15]
Dory Shafrier
But you know what, I will say, though, along those lines, because as you know, I do a one line a day journal, which is.
- [51:20]
Elise Hu
Yes, yes.
- [51:21]
Dory Shafrier
Very short and perfunctory. But there's, like. There's a lot that you will remember just by jotting a few things down. Like, I don't actually think you need to go into, like, great and gory detail about every single thing that happens. And, in fact, I think that creates a lot of pressure.
- [51:38]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [51:39]
Dory Shafrier
You know, for journaling. Because I look back on these, like, one lines. You know what I mean? It's not a lot. And I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, I remember that trip to Huntington Gardens and, like, the things that we did. And it's just, like, these little things that sort of jog my memory. So I don't know. I would be kind to yourself. I don't think it's, like. I don't think it's just perfunctory.
- [51:59]
Elise Hu
Okay. Yeah. That's a good framing for it. And then this week, obviously, in the spirit of the holiday, I intend to give thanks. Thanks. Really lean into the gratitude and saying that out loud and modeling it for everybody else, for my family. So. And I will start by giving thanks to all the listeners and the community for really. And you specifically, Dori, for welcoming me here into this community. And it's just really been. The pleasure has been mine. It has been really fortifying, even, and especially as we go through this really turbulent time in the country and in the world. So thank you all for being there. Thank you all for being such an awesome and supportive community.
- [52:41]
Dory Shafrier
Well, I am very grateful to you. And, yeah, I'm just so. Yeah. Our team, Sammy and Sammy. Sammy and Sammy. We only have people named Sam or Sammy on our. On our team.
- [52:56]
Elise Hu
If your name isn't Sam, need not apply.
- [53:03]
Dory Shafrier
Yeah. And just so grateful that we get to keep this show going. So that is because of you. So thank you.
- [53:09]
Elise Hu
Yes.
- [53:10]
Dory Shafrier
All right, everybody. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks, everyone.
- [53:23]
Elise Hu
Welcome to acast, too.
- [53:24]
Advertiser
Oh, yes.
- [53:25]
Dory Shafrier
Thanks, acast. Bye.