Episode 341: Killing Them With Kindness with Kasley Killam

Summary

Podcast Summary: Forever35 Episode 341 – "Killing Them With Kindness" with Kasley Killam

Release Date: February 24, 2025

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Kasley Killam, Harvard-trained social scientist and author of The Art and Science of Why Social Health is the Missing Key to Living Longer, Healthier, and Happier

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Introduction to Social Health

In this episode, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu welcome Kasley Killam, a leading expert in social health, to discuss the often-overlooked aspect of well-being: our social connections. Kasley emphasizes that while physical and mental health are commonly addressed, social health is equally crucial for a fulfilling and long life.

Notable Quote:
Kasley Killam ([22:16]) – “Our social ties are actually determining our risk for things like heart disease, stroke, dementia, diabetes, and they even play into our lifespans and how long we end up living.”

Understanding Social Health

Kasley elucidates that social health involves the quality and depth of our relationships. It’s not merely about having numerous connections but fostering meaningful and supportive interactions that contribute to our overall well-being. She introduces the concept of social health as a distinct pillar alongside mental and physical health.

Notable Quote:
Kasley Killam ([22:16]) – “Social health is as important as our physical and mental health. Yet it's very underappreciated. This is the next wave that's coming in our evolution of understanding what it means to be healthy.”

Social Health Styles: Embracing Individual Differences

Recognizing that people have varying social needs, Kasley outlines four social health archetypes:

1. Butterfly: Thrives in casual, frequent interactions.
2. Wallflower: Prefers fewer, deeper connections.
3. Firefly: Enjoys infrequent but profound interactions.
4. Evergreen: Maintains constant, deep connections.

This framework helps individuals understand their unique social needs and how to cultivate relationships that align with their personal comfort zones.

Notable Quote:
Kasley Killam ([24:50]) – “There are four different kinds of social health styles: the butterfly, the wallflower, the firefly, and the evergreen. Understanding our styles and how we relate to one another can help us think about what we need at any given time in our life.”

Strategies for Improving Social Health

Kasley provides actionable advice for enhancing social health, particularly for adults seeking to build new friendships or strengthen existing ones. She emphasizes the importance of engaging in activities that align with one’s interests as a natural way to meet like-minded individuals.

Key Recommendations:

• Join Clubs or Groups: Participate in activities you love, such as running clubs, hiking groups, or book clubs.
• Consistent Interaction: Regularly interacting with the same group fosters stronger connections.
• Diverse Relationships: Engaging with a variety of people enriches social support systems.

Notable Quote:
Kasley Killam ([31:47]) – “One of the most common questions I get is, if you feel like there just aren't enough people in your life, how do you make friends as an adult? The answer is to do what you love with others.”

The 5:3:1 Guideline for Social Health

Introducing her 5:3:1 recommendation, Kasley outlines a structured approach to maintaining social health:

• Interact with Five People Weekly: Engage with different individuals to diversify your social circle.
• Strengthen Three Close Relationships: Deepen connections with your closest friends or family members.
• Spend One Hour Daily in Quality Connection: Dedicate time each day to meaningful interactions, whether in person or virtually.

Notable Quote:
Kasley Killam ([35:02]) – “The 5:3:1 guideline is aiming to interact with five different people each week, strengthen at least three close relationships, and spend one hour a day in quality connection.”

Impact of COVID-19 on Social Health

The discussion shifts to the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic on societal social health. Kasley shares insights from research indicating an initial increase in loneliness and social anxiety. However, she notes a surprising resilience as people adapted by finding creative ways to stay connected, though some residual effects linger.

Notable Quote:
Kasley Killam ([42:00]) – “While there was an initial dip in social connections during the pandemic, many people bounced back more quickly than expected. However, some still feel their social muscles are a bit rusty and are working to rebuild them.”

Navigating Different Social Health Styles in Relationships

Kasley addresses challenges that arise when partners have differing social health styles. She advises understanding and respecting each other’s needs, recognizing that social health evolves over time, and providing mutual support during transitions.

Notable Quote:
Kasley Killam ([38:13]) – “It's okay to have different styles. Understanding that our social health evolves over time allows us to support each other through more connected or solitary phases as needed.”

Final Thoughts: Valuing Friendship

As the episode concludes, Kasley underscores the profound impact of friendships on our health and longevity. She encourages listeners to invest in their friendships, emphasizing that these chosen relationships are vital for both happiness and physical well-being.

Notable Quote:
Kasley Killam ([45:52]) – “Friendship is such a beautiful gift. It’s one of the more unique relationships that make up our social health because it's the one that we choose. Invest in them as much as you can.”

Closing Remarks

Doree and Elise express their gratitude to Kasley for sharing her expertise and remind listeners to prioritize their social health. They also share personal anecdotes about making an effort to foster deeper connections, reflecting the episode's themes in their own lives.

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Where to Follow Kasley Killam:

• Newsletter: kaslikillam.com
• LinkedIn: Kasley Killam
• Instagram: @kaslikillam

Connect with Forever35:

• Website: forever35podcast.com
• Instagram: @forever35podcast
• Patreon: patreon.com/Forever35
• Newsletter: Available on the website
• Contact: Call or text 781-591-0390 or email [e-mail]

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Important Note: This episode encourages listeners to assess their social health and take proactive steps to enhance their relationships. Whether you're an introvert or extrovert, understanding your social health style can lead to a happier, healthier life.

Transcript

[Raj Panjabi]

Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost. And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost. And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong?

[Noah Michaelson]

A new podcast that explores the all.

[Raj Panjabi]

Too human anxieties we have about trying.

[Dory Shafrier]

To get our lives right.

[Raj Panjabi]

Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right. And we're talking like legit credible experts, doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong?

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Raj Panjabi]

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[Raj Panjabi]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Raj Panjabi]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about Serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

How's it going, Elise?

[Raj Panjabi]

We are back. I am back in the country. I spent President's Day weekend in Ciudad de Mexico, in the capital of Mexico, and it was delightful. I had several friends join from different parts of my life, and their only connection was me. But now they're all friends with each other. There's a very boisterous group chat, and some of the group. Some of the group actually stayed longer, stayed until Thursday. And so they're hanging out with my friends who live in Mexico City to do a little bit more stuff. But, yeah, we ate so many delicious tacos, we. We hit the Al pastor. That's so good there, and the fish tacos and the chili relleno tacos, and it was just. It was a really good time. We took a salsa making class a friend of mine arranged. She took charge of Saturday night, and she was like, I found this salsa making experience with a local chef where you go to his house and he teaches. He'll teach all eight of us. And he did that. We made, like, six different salsas. Two of them were fresh, two of them were cooked, and then two of them were half cooked, half fresh. Because you can have salsas that you kind of, like, roast the tomatoes and you roast the chilies, but then there's other ingredients like the cilantro and the onions. They're fresh, and so you just, like, blend them all together. So I learned a lot about that. We made our own corn tortillas.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

Took in all the history of it. Mexico City is very European in a lot of ways. It's, like, very lush, and it's Parisian in that it has, like, the art deco architecture, and it has a lot of the roundabouts and then the parks that you have to walk through to get anywhere. So a lot of folks say that it reminds them of Paris. I will say what was really unique about it was all of the pda. That is a city of love.

[Noah Michaelson]

Interesting.

[Raj Panjabi]

That is a city of love. Granted, I landed there on the evening of Valentine's Day. And so everybody was out and about anyway. And there's a lot of, like, sidewalk dining and cafes, and it's so great. It's so vibrant and alive. But then there were, like, people just mowing down, just making out everywhere and, like, pushed into wall, like, they were backed into walls making out. And, man, it was. I was like, dang. But it made me feel great because I. It. You know, I just feel like shows of love and eroticism. There's, like, a sense of just being alive to It. You know, and so I really liked that this was a place that culturally, clearly, culturally, the PDA is. People are just down, you know?

[Dory Shafrier]

That is so interesting.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. Yeah. That was fun, huh? And then my only, like, complaint really was the guy who sat behind me on the plane on the way back who could not stop sniffling. So I've discovered a new plane pet peeve, which is, like, the ongoing.

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

And then I just. I either wanted to hand him a tissue or, I mean, or he was a cocaine addict. Who knows? Like, and a tissue wouldn't have helped, but that went on for four hours.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my God. That would have driven me insane. Did you have noise canceling headphones?

[Raj Panjabi]

I did not. I did not. Yeah, I. I guess that could have helped. Could have dealt with it, but, you know, like, I don't. I didn't expect that particular pet peeve. People have had all sorts of crazy things happen to them on planes regarding other passengers. Like, my friend Esther just shared warning listeners, this might gross you out.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, no, where's my warning?

[Raj Panjabi]

Sorry, Door. My friend Esther was on a plane this week, and she was just starting to fall asleep, and the guy, like, behind her or next to her, I don't know, was clipping his fingernails. And. No, a fingernail bit went flying and some of it, like, landed on her mouth.

[Dory Shafrier]

No, she went.

[Raj Panjabi]

And she went and plucked it off her lip and she realized it was a fingernail clipping. One of the responses to this was just like, did you just jump off the plane? Did you just jump off the plane right there?

[Dory Shafrier]

No.

[Raj Panjabi]

Can you imagine if a fingernail clipping landed in your mouth?

[Dory Shafrier]

That is really vile. I. In my first Slate column, my workplace advice column that I've been writing for the last few weeks, I did mention my former boss, who would clip his nails in his cubicle, which was next to me, and it was just like, who told you this was okay? Like, what are you doing? It's so gross. It's so gross. Or like, people on the New York subway who'd clip their nails.

[Raj Panjabi]

Did you say anything to your boss?

[Dory Shafrier]

No, I couldn't say anything. Like, I just felt like he also. He had, like, so many other issues. That was like, the tip of the iceberg, but it was just so, so gross. So gross.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, boy. Yeah. So, you know, these. These airplanes require being in close proximity with a lot other humans.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. And so these kinds of things and annoyances will happen. It's just. Wow. It surprises me. Like, the. The stories surprise me. Like, what people are willing to Do. It always bothers me when somebody in the bulkhead seat like takes off their shoes and then sometimes their socks or they're not wearing any socks and they put their feet up like on the wall in front of them in the bulkhead seat. I see that. And I'm just like. And then one time I was sitting next to a mom and her college aged son and when mealtime happened, she cut his meat for him.

[Dory Shafrier]

What?

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. Like I've seen so many things.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh my God.

[Raj Panjabi]

Okay, okay. I don't want to be doing that. It actually led to a complex for me so that when my kids were young, I was just sort of even younger than they are now. I was like, you better know how to cut your meat. You must know how to cut your. I'm not going to cut your meat for you on a plane when you're 25.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh my God. Hard pass. Yikes. Oh, wow. Well, Elise, thank you for sharing your plain horror stories.

[Raj Panjabi]

You're welcome. Everybody else, you're welcome.

[Dory Shafrier]

Before we introduce our guest, I just want to remind everyone on our website, forever35podcast.com we've links to everything we mentioned here on the show. We are on Instagram @February35 podcast. You can join our [e-mail] Forever35. We do our weekly casual chats. We do our Forever35 questionnaires. We do our monthly pop culture roundups recommendations. I have a bunch for March.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, I cannot wait for March. Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

Just telling you. Okay, so yeah, so check that out. We also have our newsletter at forever35podcast.com newsletter and call or text us at 781-591-0390 or email us at forever35podcastmail.com. Elise, do you want to introduce everyone to our guest?

[Raj Panjabi]

Yes. Today I am delighted to introduce Kasli Killam who is a leading expert in social health and author of the Art and Science of why Social Health is the Missing Key to Living Longer, Healthier and Happier. She's a Harvard trained social scientist, a two time TED speaker, she's a sought after advisor and award winning founder. Killam has been dedicated to improving well being through human connection for nearly 15 years and her collaborations with top organizations like Google, the US Department of Health and Human Services and the World Economic Forum contribute to building more socially healthy products, workplaces and communities. We love her. She's not only full of insight, she's also just like a warm and gentle soul. She's a self described introvert and has really dedicated her life to friend. Not just friendship, but just connection overall. So we thought that she would be a perfect guest for this series.

[Dory Shafrier]

She was so, so great to talk to. And you know, I've said this before, but I do love how all of our friendship conversations have focused on like different angles of friendship. It's been really cool. All right, we are going to be right back with Kasly.

[Raj Panjabi]

Life is worth a little luxury now and then. And the best kind of luxury is the one you can afford. Quince offers a range of high quality items at prices within reach. Like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50. Washable silk tops and dresses, organic cotton sweaters, 14 karat jewelry. That's 50 to 80% less than a similar brands. And denim. Right door.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh yeah, they have amazing denim. I just got my first pair of jeans from Quint. I got the comfort stretch high rise relax straight jeans. I know that's a lot of adjectives. They're like a, like a, like a semi wide leg with a high rise with a little bit of stretch and they are just, they're just perfect. I'm wearing, literally wearing them right now. I've worn them almost like almost every day since I got them. They're the jeans I was looking for and they're $50. You would think these are like designer jeans. I'm fully obsessed.

[Raj Panjabi]

Amazing. Well, Quince also cuts out the cost of the middleman, which is probably why they're $50. And passes those savings on. And only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics that you can tell are in Dory's jeans. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes.

[Dory Shafrier]

Peace of mind while you give yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quince.com forever35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com forever35.

[Elise Hu]

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[Noah Michaelson]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Noah Michaelson]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Kasli Killam]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Raj Panjabi]

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[Kasli Killam]

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[Kasli Killam]

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[Dory Shafrier]

Kasly welcome to Forever 35. We are so excited to have you on the show today.

[Noah Michaelson]

Thanks for having me. Excited to chat with you both.

[Dory Shafrier]

So we like to start off by asking our guests if they have a self care practice that they would like to share. So is there something that you do regularly that you would consider self care?

[Noah Michaelson]

Well it's a very timely question because I've been trying to sort out some health issues and basically have doctor's orders to not allow stress in my life right now. And so my current self care routine and goal is really around fun and maximizing opportunities for fun in my life. So my husband and I have started doing these bachata dance classes. We went to a comedy show on the weekend. I signed up for a painting class which starts tonight. Oh my gosh. So I'm just going all out trying to create more joy and creativity and laughter in my day to day. How cool.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know we've had a couple guests on the show who mentioned dance as a self care practice and I do think there is something just so, I don't know, so invigorating about dance and it really just sort of takes you out of yourself and yes it really.

[Noah Michaelson]

Does and it's very playful. It's very like I, I, I can't believe how much I laugh and smile when we're in those classes. Like, it's just really genuinely fun and we're terrible.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Noah Michaelson]

It's not about being good, but.

[Dory Shafrier]

Exactly, exactly. That's the thing, too. It's like that doesn't matter.

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah, not at all. Not at all.

[Raj Panjabi]

And then, Kathleen, I love that you mentioned comedy, because when I came on as a guest to Forever35, they asked me the same question at the beginning of last year. And my self care really for all of 2024 was to try and go to more live comedy shows. And so, yeah, and it's so easy to do too, because we happen to be in a big city and there's comedians that, you know are working out material here.

[Noah Michaelson]

I don't care who it is. If they're up there, I'm rooting for them. And it's gonna be interesting and entertaining no matter what. I think it's actually a good lesson of just the audience wants you to succeed. You know, it's kind of, it's kind of relevant for us all. Like, people want you to do well if you're out giving it your all and sharing a message or whatever it is that you're doing. So, yeah, I'm, I'm just happy to watch anyone who's got the guts to do it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Casli, you write and talk a lot about social health, and I was reading some interviews with you, and you mentioned kind of your origin story of how you got interested in this subject, that as an undergrad you did an experiment doing an act of kindness every day for 108 days. And I would love to hear a little bit more about that and how it led to your current area of research.

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah, sure. So this is a throwback, but it's an experience that has never left me. So like you said, I was in my final semester of undergrad. I was studying psychology, and I was fascinated by research on how to promote empathy, how to promote kindness, just generally how to help people connect better. I was personally interested in that as an introvert, as someone who'd moved around a lot, and interested from a professional perspective in the research which I was part of at that time. And so I decided to just try applying it in my own life. And so for 108 days, I did an act of kindness every day. I chose 108 because a number that actually has a lot of different meanings. There's 108 stitches on Major League Baseballs. There are 108 Mala beads in A Buddhist prayer necklace. And that was really the original inspiration for me. I'd spent time in a Buddhist monastery and liked that ritual of kind of going bead by bead. And so I thought, each day is like my bead. What's my act of kindness or mantra for the day? And so I did a whole range of things that ranged from, you know, simple gestures, like holding the door open for people or complimenting someone, to, you know, more invested ones, like volunteering at local food kitchens and the retirement residence near where I was going to college. A whole range of different things. Some really extravagant things, like giving free hugs at the door to the library on campus, handing out helium balloons in downtown Toronto. Lots of fun things. But what I found was actually transformative because, first of all, it had all these incredible effects for my relationships. I met new people, I meet new friends. I deepened the relationships that I had with my family and friends and network in general, like through, you know, writing gratitude letters and reaching out more and making a point of being there for them. So I found that my relationships were strengthening, but I also found that I was so happy, I was so energized and motivated to take care of other parts of my life that I was eating healthier foods, I was exercising more regularly. I got the best GPA of any semester in my undergrad, weirdly, because it was just such an invigorating, amazing experience to be focused on connection. And the last thing I'll share is that it really opened my eyes to the fact that there were opportunities for connection all around me, and I just kind of had to open my eyes to them and actually be intentional about seizing those opportunities because they are all around. But it's so easy to get caught up in our day to day and our to do list and, you know, homework or work or whatever it is and not actually be open to connecting on a deeper level with the people around you. So it's a very, very fun experiment that then led me on this path of realizing that applying the research insights in my life and other people's lives in the work that I do was something I was really passionate about.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah, it really influenced your career trajectory and arguably your life trajectory. Right. Because now you have done a lot of research on connection, and it sounds like you've been out there really making the case for how we are measuring health in an incomplete way. We talk a lot about mental health. Obviously we focus on physical health, but that that misses something. So can you talk a little bit about what's missing and why?

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah, Absolutely. So typically, like you said, when we talk about health, we primarily think about physical and mental health, which obviously are very important. But if we're not also taking care of our relationships, we cannot be fully healthy. And what I've discovered in almost 15 years of studying this topic is that the research is very clear. If you want to live a long and healthy life, you need to have supportive and caring relationships, whether that's with family, with friends, with a sense of community locally or through, you know, volunteering or the work that you do. Our social ties are actually determining our risk for things like heart disease, stroke, dementia, diabetes. And at the very extreme end, they actually play into our lifespans and how long we end up living. And so what I've found in my work is that people tend to underestimate the importance of connection. Right? And we kind of think it's like this nice to have or this feel good thing. In fact, it's rewiring our brains, it's changing the physiology of our bodies and affecting how susceptible we are to diseases. So it's much more important than that. And it's really distinct from mental health. Right. Like you can take care of your mind and go to therapy and be resilient and practice good hygiene around your mental well being, around your physical, physical well being. But if there's that missing piece, you can't be fully healthy. And so what I like to share with people is this idea that social health is as important as our physical and mental health. And yet it's very underappreciated. This is the next wave that's coming in our evolution of understanding what it means to be healthy. We understand our bodies, increasingly, we've understood the importance of mental health and now we're moving to this next phase where we really can see that we absolutely need to strengthen our social health as well in order to, to live good, long, happy, healthy lives.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, one thing that I know you've talked and written about is how being an introvert and having and being socially healthy are not like mutually exclusive. Like, to, to have, to be, to have social health doesn't mean that you're like out partying every night. So I was hoping you could talk a little bit about that. Just like, what does that, what does that really like? What does social health really look like and how, how do you do it if you are an introvert?

[Noah Michaelson]

Totally. Yeah. I love that you brought this up. First of all, I want to share that I'm an introvert and sometimes that surprises people. But I'm an introvert. Right. That doesn't mean that I'm not socially healthy or that I can't be. So what I think is really important to understand is that in the same way that the way we take care of our physical health, different for each person. Right. Some people love running, some people love going to the gym, some people love yoga. Some people need nine hours of sleep at night, some do fine on seven. Right. It's different for each of us. The same can be said of our social health. Right. So how much interaction is energizing for you is going to vary based on where you fall on that introvert, extrovert spectrum, but also the types of connection that feels fulfilling and meaningful for you are going to vary. And that's okay. Right. Like, some people are super comfortable at a party, socializing, being that social butterfly. Other people, not so much. And they'd rather be one on one and have a deeper conversation with someone they know really well. Right. It varies for each of us. And so in my book, I wrote about these four different kind of archetypes, which I called social health styles. The butterfly, the wallflower, the firefly, and the evergreen. And how each of us tend to fall into one of those kind of categories based on the amount and the type of connection that we like. So butterfly, unsurprisingly, someone who kind of, you know, is very comfortable in casual situations, likes a lot of interaction. A wallflower, someone who likes less interaction and sort of, you know, has a harder time opening up with people they don't know. But then there's also a firefly. So this is someone who loves infrequent, deep connection. So this is me, right? Like, I love having deeper conversations like this, connecting with. With my loved ones. But I don't need to see people every single day to be okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Noah Michaelson]

And to thrive. And then the final idea is of an evergreen. This is someone who likes a lot of deep connection. So someone who's constantly kind of in touch with their. Their close friends and going to that deeper level, skipping straight past the. The small talk. And so none of these is better than the other. Right. It's just different. And understanding our styles and how we relate to one another can help us think about what we need at any given time in our life.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. And you're such a perfect guest to have on because you are being featured in our special February series on friendship.

[Noah Michaelson]

Yay. No way.

[Raj Panjabi]

So you probably know some of the other guests that are going to be speaking to us for a series on friendship and one piece of Information I remember you talking about, because I got to be in the audience when you were giving your TED talk was this really rather alarming stat that 1 in 5 people, so 20% of people worldwide have no one to reach out to, to support one follow up. I had to. That is, is that acceptable? Is it okay for folks to kind of be more loners, like. Or is it like, rather unhealthy as you talk about, to. To have to. To be so disconnected?

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah, that's such an interesting question. It's funny, I, I mentioned those four styles and I got this cool opportunity to collaborate with the New York Times on help people decide which of those styles they are. And one person commented there should be a fifth. That's a cicada like, that comes out once every, you know, however, however many months just to emerge. Right? Like a total loner comes out every now and then. So maybe there's something to that where some people really do only feel comfortable in that situation. But the research is pretty clear that having regular interaction, having physical touch, feeling supported, these are ingredients that are necessary to be healthy and happy and live a fulfilling life, right? Like, where's the joy in being alone all the time? So again, it's a gradient for everyone. And some people are much more, you know, comfortable erring on the side of being alone. But it's hard to argue with the data that we need each other to feel grounded and to bring meaning and joy into our lives.

[Raj Panjabi]

You brought up physical touch. Does texting, does facetiming, does that count for connection?

[Noah Michaelson]

It counts in so much as those are tools to help us stay connected. Right? Like, my family all lives in a different country. A lot of my friends live in other cities. And so those are tools that we need in order to maintain those relationships. But there are definitely unique benefits to in person connection. And like you said, there's the physical touch. There's just all the cues that we're picking up on from each other when we're face to face, right? The subtle body cues and body language and facial expressions that are harder to pick up over zoom. And just there's something uniquely nourishing about being. And we all know this, right? Like, we don't need a study to really tell us this. We all know from going through Covid that it, it feels different to be in person with other people, but the research definitely supports that. So we can use all those tools that are available to us, but whenever possible, to be in person with the people we care about most really does matter.

[Dory Shafrier]

And how would you Suggest someone go about improving their social health if they kind of have the awareness that maybe, you know, maybe they are a little lonely and it's starting to affect them or just don't know where to start.

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah, totally. Well, it does depend on kind of what the pain point is for people, right? So it could be that there's kind of a lack of quantity, so not enough interaction, not enough friends, not enough people who they can reach out to. Or it could be a pain point of the quality of connection, Right? Like maybe you have lots of friends and you socialize all the time, but you're not going that deeper level, or you don't feel like you can open up and show other parts of yourself to the people who you're with. So it's kind of about first evaluating is it an issue of quantity or quality, and then taking steps to remedy that. And, I mean, I wrote a whole book about how to go about different. How to go about this in different ways, because there are so many things that we can do. But just to give one example, I think one of the most common questions that I get is if you do feel like there just aren't enough people in your life, how do you make friends as an adult?

[Raj Panjabi]

Yes, yes, we've gotten that question from our listeners, for sure.

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

When you move to a new town and it's hard to make friends as an adult, then what do you do?

[Noah Michaelson]

Yes. Moving to a new town or going through a life transition of any kind, Maybe you're a new parent. Maybe you're just evolving and looking for new people to share experiences with. It's totally normal and okay. And the frequency that I get this question tells us that everyone experiences this at some point. It's totally normal and okay. So one of the suggestions that I love, which is intuitive but very much backed by research, is to do what you love with others. So if you love running, join a running club. If you love hiking, go to meetup.com, find a local hiking group. If you love books and reading, join a book club at your local library for free. You know, whatever it is that you love doing, go and do that with other people. What this does is a few different things. First is just logistically a way to meet new people. But secondly, it takes the pressure off of the interaction. Right. Like if you're hanging out with someone for the first time and you're just having coffee across the table from each other or having dinner, there's kind of this pressure, or it can feel really intimidating, like you have to make A good impression, and you have to have a awesome conversation where you both hit it off. But if you're doing a shared activity, the attention is on that, and so your conversation can more naturally arise. You can kind of relax and have that thing that you're focused on. And then the other reason this is a really valuable way to make new friends is that research shows repeated experiences. Right. Like repeatedly seeing someone and having those shared experiences. Having that consistency is a really crucial ingredient in developing a friendship. So the more often that you see someone, the more likely it is that you're going to become friends. So you already have this thing in common. You can do it often.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. This is like Dory and her tennis team.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. It's like me and my tennis team.

[Raj Panjabi]

Really bonded over the years.

[Dory Shafrier]

I mean, it's been less than a year.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, my gosh. It feels like, yeah, they're, you know, that's your squad now.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

You know, her recreational tennis team.

[Dory Shafrier]

I think it also, you know, I think for a lot of people, it can be intimidating to sort of say to yourself, I'm going to try to make more friends. Like, it's just. It feels like an insurmountable hill to climb. And so when you kind of focus it on a hobby or an interest, it lowers the stakes in a way, because you're thinking about doing something else in addition to making friends.

[Noah Michaelson]

Absolutely. And it's. You're building a sense of community. Right. So even if it doesn't lead to one friendship, who becomes your best friend. Now you're part of this group where you have this shared thing in common. You feel like you're part of your community. You're engaging on a regular basis, and that helps us feel connected too.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. Cassie, I would love for you to Talk through the 531 recommendation from your book, because I tried to actually capture it at the end of one of our episodes, but I think I butchered it. And we actually had. We had a listener write in be like, can you review that with us? And so talk us through the 531 recommendation, please.

[Noah Michaelson]

Sure. Yes. So this is based on research on the habits of people who thrive through connection and also kind of the minimum amount of interaction that we need. So the idea is to aim for the 5:3:1 guideline if you need a starting point, similar to 10,000 steps a day or eight hours of sleep at night. So the idea is aim to interact with five different people each week to strengthen at least three close Relationships and to spend one hour a day in quality connection. So five different people each week, three close relationships, and one hour a day connecting. So we talked earlier about introverts and extroverts. Depending on where you are on the spectrum, you're having one of two interact reactions, right? You're like, whoa, that is way too high. I don't want to be around people that much. That's too much. Or you're like, whoa, that's way lower than I already do. And either reaction is. Okay. Similar to 10,000 steps, eight hours. Right. Like, it might be higher or lower than what you personally need, but that's a starting point to help you kind of anchor your actions some extent.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. When you say spend time connecting, what does that mean? What does it look like?

[Noah Michaelson]

Yes. So ideally in person, but it could be a phone call. It could be, you know, facetiming with someone. It's going to vary for interacting with five different people a week. That could be your neighbors. Right. That could be people at work as well. Like, just making sure that there's variety. Because a lot of research shows that the more diverse interaction and the more diverse relationships that we have have, the better off we all are. It's helpful to interact with people who are different from us and to kind of not invest all in one person. Right. Like, if your partner is the only person you ever talk to or you just have one friend, that's not as helpful as having kind of a variety of different people.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I feel like I do it now. It's like when you. When you actually set up the metric, it's sort of like, oh, I gotta. I gotta think, have I spent an hour today connecting? You know, but it's not hard, really, if you're like going out to lunch with a friend or.

[Noah Michaelson]

Totally.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. I mean, I think phone call.

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah. I think the one hour a day, the feedback I get is that's kind of the most intimidating to a lot of people. But it doesn't have to be all at once. Right. It could be small micro moments throughout your day. And also, if you think about it like, to me, as. As a firefly or as more of an introvert, it's a little. It sounds like too much. But if you think about it, there are 24 hours in every day. So if eight of those are spent sleeping in an ideal world, if eight of those are spent working in an ideal world, you have eight more hours to figure out how you're spending your time. And I would hope that connection is A priority for, for some of that time.

[Dory Shafrier]

What do you advise for people who are in relationships with partners who have a. Their, their social health is not in the same place, let's say.

[Raj Panjabi]

Or we have different styles, right?

[Dory Shafrier]

Or different styles.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. I mean, I, I consider myself a butterfly, but I. My ex husband, for example, he didn't really. He was a super introvert, you know, so. So if our social health doesn't match or our styles don't match, what advice do you have?

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah, it's a really good question. You know, I think first is understanding that it's okay to have different styles. And secondly, understanding that for all of us, our social health is going to evolve over time. So if you're feeling in a place in your life where you're really well connected and you have nourishing relationships and your partner, not so much, that's not a permanent state. Right. That's going to change and maybe offering some suggestions for ways that they can do that or things you can do together as a couple to kind of get them more. More comfortable. But it's not a permanent state and that's important. Right. Like we all experience times in our life when it's more difficult to stay in touch with our friends or we're overwhelmed with parenting or whatever it might be, and it's just harder. And so knowing that when one of us is going through a more difficult time, that's not forever. And you can be a really important source of support and love for that person in that time.

[Raj Panjabi]

As somebody who has been researching this for the bulk of your career, I'd love to know. You mentioned Covid a little earlier in this interview. I'd love to know kind of what the aggregate data now shows, now that we're five years on from the start of COVID what the data shows on how Covid affected our social health as kind of a society, and then what we can do about it. Because it did feel strange as we were coming out of the pandemic, two or three years, depending on what state you lived in. After a lot of the quarantines and lockdowns, it did feel kind of strange to be in real life space again with other people. And so I'd love to know what we've learned. I know there is some data on education outcomes for kids, for example, but what about just kind of in terms of social health?

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah, well, it was so interesting because at the start of the pandemic, obviously I was super concerned. A lot of people in this field were very concerned that people were going to be isolated and therefore lonely. And some research definitely showed that it took a toll on certain groups more than others, especially, for example, older adults who were truly isolated and so on. But actually, I was really surprised by some of the data that came out showing that people bounced back more quickly than you would think, and that people were staying connected and getting creative with how to do that. And so while there was this initial diploma where people were feeling lonely, struggling with their social health, they actually recovered more quickly than you would think in terms of, like, loneliness. That was a big kind of outcome that was measured a lot. That said, I find that a lot of people are still struggling a little bit socially to recover from the pandemic. Even now, what is it, five years out? I hear from a lot of people that used to be much more extroverted, that they're a little bit more introverted now than they used used to be, or that people are still kind of feeling social anxiety, and maybe not necessarily because they're worried about catching illnesses, but because there's kind of like a sense of rustiness. Like, our social muscles are a little bit weak and we're still rebuilding them and getting used to being around people. So that's one of the things that I haven't necessarily seen data for that, but it's something that keeps coming up anecdotally in my conversations with people where I think there are still some of these lasting effects, where it's. It's kind of like this collective reckoning of how do we go forward and come back together in ways that are healthy and nurturing and relearn those muscles that might still be a little bit weak.

[Dory Shafrier]

I think also, like, I think during the pandemic, I, like, I set boundaries in a way that I wasn't used to setting before. Like, I was like, no, I'm not going to come hang out with you in your house if you're not going to test.

[Noah Michaelson]

You know what I mean?

[Dory Shafrier]

Like, just like, no, I'm not going to do that. And I think in the past, I hadn't been so good about, like, setting those boundaries. But then when the pandemic kind of ended, I've been like, well, I. I've, like, learned a lot about myself, and I think my social health looks different now. Like, it's just different. I wanted. There's certain ways that I want to socialize, and then there's certain ways that I was like, you know what? I didn't really miss that. I didn't really miss having small talk with people. I don't really like having small talk with people and so going to a party and hanging out with people, I don't know. I actually don't enjoy that. I'm gonna do something else.

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So, you know, I think it's like things have changed. It's not necessarily bad. It's just different. I still socialize, but I socialize, like, more on my own terms, kind of.

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah. I actually love that totally. I think that's one of the silver linings of we all kind of had to do some self reflection coming out of the pandemic and think about what is nurturing. And if you realize, hey, these are the ways that I love connecting and that I. I leave feeling so energized, and these are the ways that I don't. That's a good thing to know about yourself, and that's a healthy boundary. One of the things I think is important for people to realize is not all connection is good connection. Right. Like, just socializing for socializing sake isn't necessarily good for you. And in particular, like, having relationships that are not healthy, that are maybe toxic or abusive, that's not good for you either. Right. We live longer, healthier lives when we have positive relationships. Right. And positive connection, not just random connection with anyone, necessarily.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. And one takeaway for me, which is a different dimension of it, because it sounds like what you were saying about COVID kind of resonates with Dori and myself in different ways. Like, for me, one thing that I struggle with is that because during COVID we had lost touch with a lot of our sort of weaker ties. The longer we go without being in touch with those weaker ties, the harder it is to restart those connections again. Like, I feel a little bit guilty now reaching out to maybe some of my old colleagues from the newsroom who I used to see daily because we were in the office every day. But somehow I've let you know, five, six years go by without checking in, because during COVID we got really intentional about checking in with our close ties, and then less our weaker ties we just happen to see. Right. And so then the longer the time passes, like a lot, you know, the longer we go without being in touch, the more awkward it is to be like, oh, hey, buddy, you know, like, how are you doing? So that I feel like that's where that's kind of another anecdotal data point for you, where it's like, oh, this is where I'm struggling to try and come back and recover from.

[Noah Michaelson]

Totally. And I think I hear This a lot, too, from companies who are still trying to figure out, are we hybrid, are we remote, are we in person? And that's one of the growing pains of, like, to your point, gathering around the water cooler. That's valuable in ways that we didn't realize before because of those weak ties that are super important. Important, too. So, yeah, I think a lot of these things we're still trying to iron out, but what's good is that there's heightened attention around it. Right. The fact that you even realize that and that we're having this conversation means that we can be more intentional going forward.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. Okay. Well, going forward is a great way to wrap things up. So, Kathleen, what do you want to leave us with as we continue with our series exploring friendship?

[Noah Michaelson]

Yeah. Oh, love it. Well, I would say friendship in particular is such a beautiful gift, and it's one of the more unique relationships that make up our social health because it's the one that we choose. And so I hope that people come away from this conversation and this series in general realizing that your friendships are so important. They matter not just for your happiness, but also literally for your health and how long you're going to live. And so invest in them as much as you can. Right. And that could be even through simple gestures or occasional outreach. But as long as you're making sure to prioritize those, you're both going to really benefit.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that. Kasli, where can our listeners find you if they want to follow along with your work?

[Noah Michaelson]

Sure. So the best way is I write a substack newsletter. You can join [e-mail]. you can also find me on LinkedIn and Instagram.

[Dory Shafrier]

Great.

[Raj Panjabi]

Fantastic.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thank you so much.

[Raj Panjabi]

Killam. Thank you so much.

[Noah Michaelson]

Thank you.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, Elise, I have to admit that all this talk of friendship has made me, like, want to show up more. So when you invited me to your birthday dinner, I was like, yes, I'm going to make it happen.

[Raj Panjabi]

I actually. I actually was like, will Dory want to come? Because it's a lot of NPR people. And then I was like, whatever. I'm inviting Dory and making sure that she's invited even if she doesn't want to come. But I'm so glad that you're gonna come.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I know. I was like, oh, I will know. Two people. Actually three people, but that's okay. I'm, like, going out of my comfort zone, and it'll be great. So thank you. Friendship Month.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yes. Well, yeah, thank you. Friendship Month. Because otherw Dory might have not come to my birthday dinner.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. And I got. I got a text the other night from a woman who I'm, like, friendly with, but not like, I wouldn't call a super close friends. We never hung out one on one, but it was from her husband, and it was like, we're throwing a surprise party for this person's birthday, like, on this date. Can you make it? And I was like, yes, I will be there.

[Raj Panjabi]

Good. Awesome.

[Dory Shafrier]

So look at me. I'm just, you know, I'm just rewiring myself.

[Raj Panjabi]

I love it. I love it.

[Dory Shafrier]

We actually have a guest coming up post friendship month who we've already spoken to.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

That kind of did a similar thing. So, you know, we're. We're continuing on a similar theme. Yes. Anyway.

[Raj Panjabi]

Intention time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Intention time. This past week, my intention was just like my parent visit, and I think it went pretty well. They got to spend a lot of, like, really nice quality time with Henry.

[Raj Panjabi]

Good.

[Dory Shafrier]

Also, my mom will drive in Los Angeles and my dad will not. So having my mom here with my dad, because my dad has sometimes come by himself, but having them both here was like, not just nice, but also helpful.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

So that was amazing. And I think Henry really enjoyed having them here, so that was really nice. This week, my husband and I are on a new life plan.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, what's that?

[Dory Shafrier]

Where we are. We are. We're doing some action items every.

[Raj Panjabi]

So you're running. You're running your house like kind of a business where you're just like, what are our action items out of this meeting?

[Dory Shafrier]

It kind of. It's more like we're. We're discussing our to do lists for the next day, but. But they're like things. Not just like, take out the trash, but it's like, I'm going to call this person who I haven't spoken to in a year. You know what I mean? Because that's been like one of my husband's, like, big things. So we've just been like, talking through that stuff.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, cool.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

You. You can be accountability partners for each other on these.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. I kind of feel like we're like. Like we're accountability partners. And so that's been. It's been going. I mean, it's only been three days, but it's been going pretty well. So I want to kind of continue it. So that's my intention for this week. I'll have more on that soon, hopefully. Okay.

[Raj Panjabi]

I want to hear more about it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

Well, last week my intention was to be still but it lasted for like three days until I left town. And I was so not still. I was just a kinetic Adam bouncing around New York City. Or not New York City bouncing around Mexico City.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow, you made it from New York.

[Raj Panjabi]

Also, I don't even know where I am half the time. It was so funny because in foreign correspondent life, being still was so hard that sometimes I'd show up at the airport and I'd be like, where am I going? Where? I have no idea. And, like, I'd have to, like, look down and be like, oh, yes. Because I had to cover so much of Japan and so much of Korea. So being still was great for like, three days. And I'm going to reset that as an intention in the coming weeks. But this week I have something way more simple, which is just to exercise again, because I've been. I've been. I've had my stomach bug since coming back, so I just have been kind of splayed out and I would just like to move again, like play some tennis this weekend or go for a jog. My intentions are quite simple. I'm not setting the bar too high.

[Dory Shafrier]

No, I. I think setting the bar low, turns out, is kind of the key to life.

[Raj Panjabi]

Just getting through the day. Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

Just getting through the day. Exactly. Who did we. We spoke to someone recently who was like myself, Bridget Todd. Just.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah, yeah, Bridget Todd.

[Dory Shafrier]

Just getting through the day. I was like, yeah, I respect that. Well, thanks, everyone for listening, for writing in. We appreciate you. And a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners Acast. We'll talk to you soon.

[Raj Panjabi]

Bye bye.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bye.

[Elise Hu]

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