Episode 342: Raising the Friendship Bar with Dr. Marisa Franco

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 342: Raising the Friendship Bar with Dr. Marisa Franco

Release Date: March 3, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu

In the latest episode of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve deep into the intricacies of modern friendships with renowned friendship expert, Dr. Marisa Franco. This episode, part of their Friendship Month series, offers listeners a comprehensive exploration of building and maintaining meaningful connections in an increasingly complex social landscape.

---

1. Wrapping Up Friendship Month

Timestamp [00:57] - [08:17]

As Friendship Month draws to a close, Doree and Elise reflect on the insights gained from previous episodes and share personal anecdotes about applying these lessons in their own lives.

• Doree Shafrir shares her experience attending a surprise birthday party for an acquaintance, highlighting the challenges of RSVP etiquette in large gatherings. She muses, “I was like, do I need to arrive at 7 on the dot? If I get there at 7:05, am I going to ruin the surprise? Like, what is my window here?” ([02:58]).

• Elise Hu echoes similar sentiments, admitting her struggle with forgetting to respond to invitations after initially showing interest: “I feel like I am guilty of opening things and forgetting that I ever opened it” ([05:55]).

The hosts emphasize the importance of making consistent efforts to nurture friendships, inspired by the lessons from their Friendship Month series.

---

2. Introducing Dr. Marisa Franco

Timestamp [09:12] - [14:35]

Dr. Marisa Franco, a professor at the University of Maryland and author of Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends, returns to the show. She is celebrated for her expertise in connection science and her contributions to major publications like Psychology Today, The New York Times, and Vice.

Elise Hu introduces Dr. Franco, stating, “She writes about friendship for Psychology Today and has been a featured connection expert for major publications like The New York Times, the Telegraph, and Vice” ([09:14]).

---

3. Self-Care Practices: Embracing Mental Pain

Timestamp [14:37] - [16:09]

Dr. Franco discusses her evolving self-care practices, particularly focusing on acknowledging and processing mental pain.

• Dr. Marisa Franco explains, “The self-care practice has been spending a lot of time with my pain. Like mental pain. Like, oh, if I'm upset or sad, like closing my eyes and like what does that feel in my body? Tracking it as it moves through my body” ([14:56]).

• She emphasizes the transformative power of this practice: “It has been life-changing… I'm making space for it” ([15:37]).

Elise Hu relates, mentioning her own journey in embracing discomfort: “I really struggled with that as well until my mid-30s” ([15:21]).

---

4. Navigating Friendships in a Tense Climate

Timestamp [16:09] - [18:02]

The conversation shifts to the challenges of forming and maintaining friendships amidst societal fears and stresses.

• Dr. Franco addresses the current psychological climate: “Prejudice and bigotry have become part of the public psyche even more” ([17:27]).

• She underscores the duality of community needs: “Turning towards it can be a great place of hope” ([17:27]).

---

5. Friendships Among Older Adults: Raising the Bar

Timestamp [18:02] - [23:25]

Dr. Franco explores how friendships evolve as we age, particularly beyond the age of 60.

• Dr. Franco asserts, “Friendship is over at 55,” challenging the notion that it's too late to form new connections ([18:03]).

• She explains that as people age, they tend to prioritize quality over quantity: “We raise the bar for friendship… focus on quality over Quantity” ([18:06]).

• Sharing a personal story, Dr. Franco recounts resolving a conflict with her best friend, emphasizing the importance of addressing issues head-on to foster deeper intimacy: “Conflict that feels like an act of love” ([20:57]).

---

6. Handling Economic Imbalances in Friendships

Timestamp [30:47] - [31:13]

Addressing financial disparities, Dr. Franco advises flexibility and creativity in shared activities:

• “What are some things that you like to do that maybe are more affordable for your friend?” she suggests, encouraging activities like picnics or free museum visits ([31:13]).

• She emphasizes seeing beyond economic differences: “Friendship is more than the totality of expensive activities” ([31:31]).

---

7. Rekindling Old Friendships: Overcoming the 'What If'

Timestamp [37:22] - [39:12]

Dr. Franco offers strategies for reconnecting with old friends, tackling the common regret of missed opportunities:

• She reassures listeners that most friendships fade naturally, not out of animosity: “The number one reason friendships end is because they fade” ([37:58]).

• Practical advice includes sharing a cherished memory to reignite the connection: “I was just thinking about that time we went to that awesome book talk… and it made me want to reach out to you” ([37:58]).

Elise Hu shares a personal anecdote about inadvertently triggering a friend's past trauma, highlighting the importance of addressing and understanding personal triggers to strengthen relationships:

• “I didn't realize that I was stepping on a live wire… it was very instructive” ([27:49]).

---

8. Dealing with Personal Baggage for Richer Relationships

Timestamp [33:53] - [35:21]

Dr. Franco delves into the significance of confronting personal 'shadow' aspects to enhance friendships:

• “We perceive reality through the lens of our memories. If I've been rejected in the past, I'll perceive new interactions through that same lens” ([33:53]).

• She explains how unprocessed experiences can distort current relationships, advocating for revisiting and healing past traumas to foster healthier connections: “Unless you revisit those experiences and clean them out a little bit” ([35:21]).

---

9. The Power of Under Sociality and Active Connection

Timestamp [35:26] - [37:22]

Introducing the concept of "under sociality," Dr. Franco highlights how individuals often underestimate the positive impact their actions have on others:

• “When strangers interact and report how much they like each other, they underestimate how liked they are” ([35:39]).

• She encourages a mindset shift: “Instead of thinking about how will that friend see it, ask how you would see it if they reached out” ([36:00]).

This perspective fosters a more accurate and generous view of interpersonal interactions, reducing fears of overstepping boundaries.

---

10. Building and Integrating Community into Daily Life

Timestamp [41:43] - [42:28]

Dr. Franco shares her initiatives to create community spaces and integrate connection into everyday activities:

• She describes organizing social events that prioritize belonging and affirmation: “We start with an icebreaker and end by affirming something someone else has said” ([42:28]).

• Emphasizing the foundational role of connection, she states, “Connection is just underneath everything” ([42:28]).

---

11. Final Thoughts and Takeaways

Timestamp [43:47] - [44:22]

Before concluding, Dr. Franco provides resources for listeners to further explore her work:

• Dr. Marisa Franco invites listeners to visit her Instagram and website for tips on connection science and offers a quiz to assess friendship strengths and weaknesses ([44:00]).

---

Conclusion

Episode 342 of Forever35 offers a profound exploration of friendship dynamics, enriched by Dr. Marisa Franco's expertise. From addressing personal growth and conflict resolution to rekindling old bonds and building community, the episode equips listeners with actionable insights to elevate their friendships. Through heartfelt discussions and relatable stories, Doree and Elise underscore the vital role of connections in fostering a fulfilling life.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Marisa Franco: “Conflict that feels like an act of love” ([20:57]).

• Doree Shafrir: “I like this person. We just aren't super close” ([02:49]).

• Elise Hu: “I have zero blisters on my toes. And that's because I wear Bombus” ([13:39]).

---

Whether you're navigating the complexities of adult friendships or seeking to deepen existing connections, this episode provides invaluable guidance for cultivating a supportive and enriching social network.

Transcript

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[Dory Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

Hello, Elise.

[Elise Hu]

Hello. Hello. It is our final interview in our Friendship Month series today. I can't believe it's just flown by. I tell you, it feels just like yesterday that we got this started.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's so true. It's been so fun. I. I've loved everyone we've spoken to. Our guest today is someone who's been on the show before and I enjoyed this conversation as much, if not more than our first one. She was just so great.

[Elise Hu]

And also I feel like I've taken a lot of the Friendship Month lessons that we have learned from the various guests like Kazly Killam and her five three. One thing just to make sure that you do five connections.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

For one hour a day and all that. So I've done that. I've thought about that a lot. And then Anna Goldfarb came on our recent Mini and answered a lot of questions. And I don't know, I just feel like these conversations have been applicable to our friendships and remembering how important they are.

[Advertiser]

So.

[Elise Hu]

And they're just like telling your friends.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. I was saying that Friendship month, like inspired me to show up to your birthday dinner.

[Advertiser]

Yeah, it's inspiring me to.

[Dory Shafrier]

To show up to a birthday party tomorrow night for someone who I'm like, not that close with, but I'm like, you know what, it's like a nice thing. I like this person.

[Elise Hu]

Right. Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

We just aren't like super close. But it was very thoughtful of her husband to invite me to the her surprise party.

[Elise Hu]

A surprise party?

[Dory Shafrier]

I know, I'm like, oh, a surprise party. I feel like I need to get more information. I'm like, do I need to arrive at like 7 on the dot? If I get there at 7:05, am I going to ruin the surprise? Like, what is my window here?

[Elise Hu]

I get really nervous about that.

[Dory Shafrier]

Should I just wait till 8:30? Like what, what are we talking here?

[Elise Hu]

Do I hide in the hedges?

[Advertiser]

Right, Exactly.

[Dory Shafrier]

Also, I was actually at her the other night because I taught she, I taught her and her friends mahjong and it was, it was really hard to not be like, see you Friday.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And she was also like, oh, my birthday's tomorrow. And I was like, oh, cool. Not like, I know. So yeah. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna go to this and like, good, you know, just like make an effort. Do you, you know Jackie Johnson? She's like a comedian. She's been on our show.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

She had a show called Natch Butte. So she, she had a tick tock that kind of went viral about the 40th birthday party that she and her husband threw for themselves.

[Elise Hu]

Oh.

[Dory Shafrier]

Because, okay, to be clear, she did not invite me. So like we, you know, I would say we're friendly but we're not like friends. So she's not, I'm not included in what she was talking about. But they in, they apparently invited like something like 300 people. Like they invited a ton of people. They were having it at a bowling alley in LA and they could have like 165 people or something. Like it was, it was a big party. But her whole thing was that, you know, with paperless posts you can like see if someone has opened your invite and not responded.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, huh, huh.

[Dory Shafrier]

So she was like, 57 people open this and didn't even respond. Like they didn't rsvp yes. They didn't rcp, no. They didn't even say I might be able to come. They just didn't respond. And then there were like, I forget the exact numbers, but like a third of the people who said they could come actually didn't come. And she was just sort of like going off about, oh no, like the rudeness and like, is it worse to not respond at all or to say you're gonna come and then flake at the last minute or, you know what I mean? Like, she was just like, this is crazy. Now to be clear, she still had Over a hundred people show up. Like, it's not like no one came.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

But you know, I think she was just talking about like RSVP etiquette. And I do think that there is, I don't know if this is like an LA specific thing or just like a modern life thing, but I do think that there is definitely a subset of people who would rather just ignore something than say that they aren't coming.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, interesting, interesting. I feel like I am guilty of opening things and forgetting that I ever opened it. Like just in blanking out of my mind.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

I, I just got like an email reminder about like, hey, you were supposed to let me know what you wanted to talk about on this panel. I'm like, I don't remember the first email. Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

I know. Well, it is a thing where like if I don't respond right away. Yeah. It often just goes out of my brain.

[Elise Hu]

I'm gonna chalk it up to modern life. Like just overload information, overload too many things competing for our attention. Whenever I, if I'm having a kid birthday party and we do paperless post invites and there were folks that opened it originally but then haven't responded yet, I just send out that reminder to RSVP like a week out. Totally, totally. Because that's actually what I rely on. I rely on nudges. Like always feel free to nudge me and nudge me many times because I kind of, I kind of need it, you know. And so.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, yes, yes. I was sort of like of two minds about her TikTok. Like on the one hand I was like, you still got over a hundred people to show up to a birthday party like in, in Los Angeles. Like that's, that's a lot of people. But I also understand the frustration of not hearing back from people. And, and I do think that maybe it was because so many people were invited. Like you could see how many people were invited that people were like, I don't really need RSVP. There's like 300 people invited like for your birthday dinner. It was like, oh, there's like 12 people. You know, if I don't, like they need to know if I'm coming. If, if you're invited to a birthday party with 150 other people, you're sort of like, eh, no one's gonna care if I'm not there. You know.

[Elise Hu]

That's true. And then if I'm hosting a party with like 150 or more, I also don't care. So like I also don't Check the rsvp. Exactly, exactly, exactly. There's gonna be plenty of people here.

[Dory Shafrier]

I don't.

[Elise Hu]

I don't care, you know, so. So I need to see the tick tock. I need to see this viral TikTok.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay. I will send it to you what.

[Elise Hu]

The beef is, but I think you've captured it anyway.

[Dory Shafrier]

All this to say I. I am trying to make more of an effort to show up to things.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Good. So if friendship month has done anything, it has certainly touched your life, which is fantastic. Yeah. Because that, that's what we wanted. We wanted people to feel like we want. We. We didn't do it just for Dory. Like it's for everybody and all of us.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was gonna say, did we improve my life? Because also our, our, our menopause, our perimenopause and menopause month also improved my life. So I'm like, amazing. I'm like, what else, what else do I. What other aspect of my life do I need to improve that? We can just have some experts to.

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[Elise Hu]

You know what? That's our privilege. That's our privilege as podcasters. Exactly.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm finally making this podcast work for me.

[Elise Hu]

Amazing.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, on that note, should we introduce our guest?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I will do the honors. Today we have on for the second time here on Forever 35, but the first time with me in the co Host Chair, Dr. Marissa Franco. She works as a professor at the University of Maryland and she is the author of a book called Platonic how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. She writes about friendship for Psychology Today and has been a featured connection expert for major publications like the New York Times, the Telegraph, and Vice. Dr. Franco speaks on belonging at corporations, government agencies, nonprofits and universities across the country, including HarperCollins, publishers, Cisco, American association for the Advancement of Science, and the State Department. We were so delighted to have her on and she's actually in the process of writing her next book, which she talks a little bit about. Teaser.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, it was. It was really interesting to hear her talk. And just a reminder that you can Visit our website, forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35 podcast. We post some clips from the show on our Instagram. Our patreon [e-mail] forever35. We will be airing our next next pop culture episode or pop culture recommendations episode that will air next week. So if you're interested in that, check out the Patreon you can also get a seven day free trial of the Patreon. I'm just saying. And shop our favorite products@shopmy us forever35. We also have a newsletter at forever35podcast.com newsletter and we love getting your texts, your voicemails, your emails. You can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail and here is Dr. Franco all right, Investing can feel overwhelming. There are words you don't know, systems you don't understand. Where even is the money that goes into the stock market? Where is it? Well, Acorns believes that anyone can be an investor. That's why they make it easy to stick to basic time tested principles that give your money a chance to grow. Here is a fact that may not surprise you. 66% of men are investing in the stock market compared to just 48% of women. That investing gap means fewer women have the chance to build wealth now and can have huge repercussions down the road when it comes time for them to retire. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now. Even if all you've got is spare change. Sign up now and join the over 13 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.comforever35 or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] Forever35 to get people.

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[Dory Shafrier]

Dr. Marissa Franco, welcome back to Forever 35. We're so excited to be talking to you again.

[Advertiser]

Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, well, I guess Elise, you didn't talk to her the first time around, but Dr. Franco was on the show in 2022. Kate and I interviewed her about her amazing book. And then when it was time to book guests for friendship month, it was like, well, we should obviously have her back. So thank you for coming back.

[Advertiser]

Happy to be here.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. Well, as you know, because you answered this question before, we like to start off by asking our guests about a self care practice. So I'm wondering if there's something different that you're doing now or something just something else you want to mention.

[Advertiser]

This is a big question for me because I'm writing my next book on like healing. But the self care practice has been spending a lot of time with my pain. Like mental pain. Like, oh, if I'm like upset or sad, like closing my eyes and like what does that feel in my body? Tracking it as it moves through my body. Like never dismissing my pain, never, I don't know, just always like making space for it.

[Elise Hu]

I really struggled with that as well until I guess my mid-30s. And I have to say, like, it kind of opens things up. What has it done for you just to allow yourself to feel pain and feel discomfort.

[Advertiser]

It has been life changing. I would say, like there's a lot of times I don't understand where my pain is coming From. Unless I spend time with it and, like, tune into what does it feel like in my body or like, what past memories are coming up. And it also feels like every time I do, I'm, like, cleaning out, like, the accumulation of stuff that makes up a trigger. So it's made me so much more just, like, regulated and present.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

[Advertiser]

Not easy, though.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, no, it is like, fracking, you.

[Dory Shafrier]

Know, like, you have to.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it's a lot of pressure, you know, and then it's deep. Dr. Franco, you've been on here before, so we want to kind of get to the current moment as we think about friendship and connection. Could you talk to us about how people are making friendship and community work for them right now? Because it is a time of a lot of fear and stress, depending on what communities you're in. I had a friend say to me not too long ago that America is not a psychologically safe place right now.

[Advertiser]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, absolutely. And that makes it harder to connect, but it also makes it easier because it's like, I don't know where. Where I am going for hope, where I am going for safety, is, like, the communities that have been filled with people that make me feel safe and secure and make me feel like what's going on more generally doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that everyone kind of thinks these ways or sees things the way that they do. And so I think it can feel scary to make community in some ways, because it's like. Well, like, I don't know there. It seems prejudice and bigotry have become part of the public psychic guys even more, especially if you hold certain identities. But at the same time, we need it more than ever. And turning towards it can be a great place of hope.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, we. I know last time we talked to you, we talked a lot about kind of the making friends and keeping friends in your 30s. And I was hoping we could kind of expand that a little bit. I'm wondering if you have done any research or if you have any insights into friendships among older adults? Like, let's say, over, I don't know, 60? Yeah. I'm curious. Like, what is similar? What is different? Is there an age where we're too old to make new friends?

[Advertiser]

No.

[Dory Shafrier]

That was a leading question.

[Advertiser]

Controversial, Devil's advocate here. Friendship is over at 55. So this is a great question. And what we see as we get older is that we raise the bar for friendship. People tend to let go of the more fringe friends and focus on quality over Quantity. And this is because how you navigate friendship is how you navigate a life stage. And when you're in your 20s, you want to expand and learn and grow and expand, experiment and figure out who you are and be exposing yourself to a ton of different people is one way to do that. But as you get older, you really start thinking about time is precious. I want to spend time with people that are meaningful to me, who I love, who make me feel like myself, who I feel nourished by their company. And so there's this great pruning that tends to happen as we get older where we're sort of just like, okay, like that friend that I, you know, made me a little bit anxious or like, we're not quite a fit. But I was like, they're interesting. Like, I'm gonna let go of and I'm going to turn towards the people that make me feel loved and safe.

[Elise Hu]

Has being a friendship expert taught you anything that you've now applied to your friendship? So just in research, like, what have you taken from becoming an expert on all of this into your actual relationships?

[Advertiser]

One is make the unsaid said it has revolutionized how I do conflict in friendships, where I used to ignore it and blame it on myself if I had a problem. And I realized from the research that I'm limiting intimacy. I'm making my friendships more fragile and I'm limiting an opportunity for us, me to get to know my friends needs and for them to get to know mine. So the magic of bringing up problems rather than withdrawing or blaming yourself has been not only life changing for me, but my friends have started to do it from their experience with me, with their other friends. Because a lot of us have not had an experience, maybe outside romantic partnership of like, conflict that doesn't feel like an attack, but feels like an act of love. And once people receive that, it's so powerful that it's like they want to start testifying and spreading the word. So, you know, like, conflict that looks like, hey, I love you. I want to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding you. Like, what did you mean when you said that? Starting with curiosity. Okay, here's where I. He's where. I took that because, like, this is some of my own triggers that have come up for me. Like, let's figure out what this can look like going forward. Like, defanging conflict. I was talking about this yesterday. It feels like a way to, like, make your friendships more foolproof. Because now every time there's an issue, you're like, oh, we know we can work through this. You've done it before. You don't have to get cagey. We don't have to, like, let's just chop it up. Let's do it. Let's do what we do.

[Elise Hu]

Is there a good example of that and how that's worked for you in your own life?

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, yeah. My gosh.

[Advertiser]

Me and my best friend Kana, we are conflict aficionados now. I definitely have a lot of trouble when people are seem, like, angry. I shut down. I feel like this feels, like, a little bit dangerous for me. You know, I grew up a parent with that was very angry. So we were actually discussing politics and how pissed off she was about politics. And I. I, like, disagreed with her a little bit. And then she, like, kind of continued to, like, be very passionate, and I completely shut down, and I was, like, almost, like, immobilized. And she was kind of just like, hey, what's happening? Like, do you need some space? She was living with me at the time. What's happening? Like, do you need some space? And I was like, I know that I'm reacting a lot more strongly than, like, what happened. So I think that, like, some previous triggers are coming up for me right now, and I do want to talk to you about it, but, like, give me, like, give me two days. And so we had that conversation, and I was. I was just like, yeah, like, I think I get really scared of, like, something bad happening when there's a lot of anger. And I know that you never said anything like that. Like, that ability to, like, hold two realities, which is like, this is how my body's reacting. And I also see a broader reality, I think is so good in conflict. So you're not just, like, you were out of control and, you know, cause you. Because I feel so shut down, that's, like, all your fault, you know, that. That, like, dual. Dual reality. And so I explained to her that sort of dual reality, and that sometimes I can. I can mix those up when people are angry. That associated with danger in a way that it's not necessarily. And she heard me so much, and she was just like, okay, like, now I know this about you. Now I understand this about you. Like, thank you so much for sharing. Like, you know, I never want to make you feel that way. Like, you know, let me know how I can do something different going forward. And it's been one of the most powerful moments because I think I was at my most vulnerable, because rarely am I that triggered that. I'm like, I can't get off the couch.

[Elise Hu]

Well, and then plus with the self care that you're working on, it seems like you're able, you're able to accept and kind of look into and interrogate your own trigger too. So that's awesome.

[Advertiser]

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[Dory Shafrier]

For people who have not historically been able to do that with their friends for whatever reason, that's just sort of been the nature of their friendship. But they want to. How would you suggest kind of going about it? Because it does sort of seem to change the nature of a friendship, right?

[Advertiser]

Totally. Yeah. So there's this really cool concept I like called framing. And it's like on the research on how to like talk to narcissists and get them to be a little less narcissistic. And you basically go into the conversation reminding your friend that I want to talk through this because you are important to me, because I love you, because I do not want anything to come between us. And so because people's assumptions, when you bring stuff up, it's often that I'm bad, you're shaming me. Right. Like just from the get go, coming into the conversation, reassuring them that, that this isn't what this is. And the second thing I think people can do is start with curiosity, which is like this happened and I kind of just want to understand more about like what was, what was going on for you? Like where are you coming from? And that's really important because when people feel heard, they tend to hear you. One and two, they might have, they might share something that might completely change your own take on things. Right. Like you know, maybe a friend is like, yeah, like I didn't show up and I didn't text you because I've been like really depressed and that's been really hard. And you're, you go from, man, you're a crappy friend. I took that personally to like empathy. Right. And then you know, things like sharing I statements. I felt like this when that happened and not you, you're a bad friend. You always do this. And then making a collaborative choice going forward, like, okay, what do things look like from here? Like when this comes up again, like what, what can happen? But I also think giving your own self time to process and come down from your anger is important because how you approach it non verbally, whether you seem centered or like really like panicked is also going to influence the vibe and also really thinking about this different. It's also a mindset shift because I thought to be a good friend was to absorb the conflict and not bring it up. But a lot of the times, like, first of all, you're holding someone guilty without giving them a trial, right? You're not giving them a chance to share their perspective, and you're assuming whatever your own story is about it. Also, like, we often do that because we're afraid of being abandoned, but we end up abandoning the friendship anyway. So we try to escape a possibility with a certainty that things will go badly because we just withdraw because we don't bring stuff up. And, like, the last thing is, like, if people love you, they don't want to hurt you, right? Like, I mean, like, thank you for telling me that I'm hurting you, because I don't want to do that. And so trusting that people love you, I think is, like, one of the hardest acts in friendship, but is going to make our friendships better in so many different ways.

[Elise Hu]

I have this crazy example with my own friend about this, because I had a friend who asked me if I wanted to go to a Ja Rule and fabulous concert. This is actually going to get back to your point, I promise. And she spelled it fabulous. And I was like, ding dong. It's spelled F, A, B, O, L, O, U, S. You should know that it's with. It's on every song. He, like, spells it all out. And she was like, oh, yeah, okay. Oh, I'm so so. And I guess she took it very personally because she felt as though I was making fun of her intelligence. And a day later, she texted me and she said, hey, your friendship means a lot to me. And this is why I'm bringing it up. Yeah. And she's like, but I've been thinking about what you said to me yesterday in text. And. And it really hurt my feelings because my dad used to make fun of me for, like, not being smart enough, you know, and so I didn't realize. Of course, I had no idea. And I. I really was making a joke about Fabilous and how he purposely spells his name wrong. But it ended up being this moment that really crystallized something for me about my friend that I didn't realize. You know, I didn't realize that I. This was a trigger for her. And I didn't mean to obviously step on a live wire, but I think it's really important that we bring up each other's wires, you know, like, you might trip this. And so. Because I accidentally did. So this is a great example. I mean, that's my example of kind of what you're saying.

[Advertiser]

Yeah, she did really good articulating that too. She was really.

[Elise Hu]

I know, but I felt so guilty. So when I got that, I was like, oh, my gosh. And then actually, my first reaction was, wow, she's taking this so personally, you know? But. But I needed to get rid of my own sort of shame about feeling like I had hurt someone, too. So it was very instructive, actually.

[Advertiser]

Yeah. Sounds like you went through a whole journey over there.

[Elise Hu]

Well, speaking of kind of midlife friendships, one thing we've been exploring throughout this month of friendship as our key topic, is the friendship dip that happens in our 30s, because so many folks are focused on family and focused on work and being a baller at work that we. That we kind of put our friendships on the back burner a little bit more. So I'd love to know kind of how to handle that dip and what advice you have.

[Advertiser]

I'm thinking about this study that looks at, like, what predicts whether friends become best friends. And it's this concept called identity affirmation, which means we affirm each other in our unique identities, even if your identities are really different from mine. And so I think what that means is, like, we tend to fork in, like, the kind of life experiences that we're having in our 30s. And some people. Some people are having kids. Some people are traveling the world. Like, there's just a lot of range is, like, just because that's not your life experience doesn't mean that you can't be interested in it and you can't enter into your friend's life experience. So that might look like, okay, maybe you don't have kids. Your friend does. Do you want to hang out with their kid sometime? You know, like, get into their world or, like, yeah. People with tiny children often have a very limited schedule. Like, do you have the flexibility to, like, have dinner with them or bring dinner for their families? Right. And then, you know, for your single friends, if there's, like, hobbies or interests that you have that you're friends with, kids might not have time to think about that as much. Like, you can kind of invite them out to that. And so I think I said this, too, on the last episode, that, like, a lot of the times we're breaking apart because of assumptions rather than truth. Right. I'm assuming you're too busy now because you have this, this, and this going on. I'm assuming my life's too boring and tedious for you, so I don't share anything about it anymore. Right. And so it's like, we are bracing for rejection, but like, instead going in with, what if my friend might be interested in this? What if my friend might be open to this? Let me still make the ass. Like, I always give people a chance to say no to you. You know, for my friends that have kids, I'm still gonna invite them. And even if they can't come, I know they want to be invited. And so, you know, giving them a chance to say no, I think is just really important as our lives start to change. And also having a really long term perspective of a friendship. Right? Because like I interviewed with some guy on another podcast, he's like 60 and he's like. And they come back, you know, their kids get older and they retire and they. And then it's like when you're young again and. And so even if, like this might be a stage, you know, something you have a study of long distance friendships, that they stay close when people assume that they're flexible, not fragile, that we might go through a sleepier stage. But that doesn't mean that it's over. And I feel like I can have the flexibility to reach, still reach out, even if we haven't talked for a while, to rekindle our connection.

[Elise Hu]

Love it. Love that.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that. What about when it comes to economic imbalances? Because I feel like as we get older, that can be something that really affects the nature of our friendships. As you get older, it can sometimes seem like you are out of sync with your peers. And I'm wondering what you would suggest to help people navigate that situation.

[Advertiser]

Yeah, this is a great question. I think of friendship as a Venn diagram. Like, there's parts of us that overlap and there's parts of us that don't. Right. And that's just true about any. And so, you know, economically, if you're like really bougie and you love to go to these like, fancy dinners and your friend is not there economically, like, you're more than a fancy dinner.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right?

[Advertiser]

There's things that will interest you outside of that and keep that in mind. Even if that's like, what you typically do is very expensive, that doesn't mean it is the totality of everything that you would like to do. And so what are some things that you like to do that maybe are more affordable for your friend? I mean, do you like to go to the park? Do you want to have a picnic? Do you like to go? I mean, in D.C. all the museums are free, but I know that they cost money elsewhere where, you know, like, there's just a lot, I think just generally a Lot of being a good friend is like seeing your identity more flexibly and not rigidly. And, you know, acknowledging people, for example, that are neurodivergent, that comes a lot harder than people that are neurotypical. But yes, that, like, I think I've been doing this thing. So me and my best friend, we actually, we become very different. Like, I'm a tomboy. She's very well manicured, well maintained. She's like, yeah, I like text friends about who's the esthetician that they use. I didn't even pronounce that word right because I don't know what it is. And what I decided, what we decided to do is to stop predicting and start experiencing where I can assume, I'm not interested in the things that you like as someone who's more like kind of traditionally feminine than me. But what if those aren't. Those stories aren't true? So we went to a flower making class. I would not pick a flower making class for myself, but this was us trying to bridge our divides and identities. And I like that. Flower making class was like, this is like manual labor. Like, you gotta clip these flowers. You gotta, like, cut off all the leaves. Like, it's very tactile. And so I think when it comes to, like, our friends, differences in their identities, stop predicting, start experiencing. Stop saying to yourself, that's not the kind of thing I like to do. And start doing it. And then after the fact, observe your experience of it.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. One theme that we keep returning to in this conversation and one theme that has been really resonant in your work just in preparing for the interview, has been what you talked about at the top of this conversation, which is the importance of dealing with our own shadow stuff, the importance of dealing with our own baggage in order to have richer relationships. So I'd love for you just to talk more about that and why it's so crucial.

[Advertiser]

Well, I mean, this is like kind of from my new book. We perceive reality through the lens of our memories. And so what that means is that if I've been rejected in the past, I've been bullied. When you say something that feels a little bit off, all of the I'm going to experience in my body the same thing I experienced when I was bullied. So what that means is that we're all perceiving reality so differently based off of our previous experiences. And if I have a lot of things that I've gone through that I haven't taken the time to like, sit with or process all of that baggage is going to layer itself onto, like, how I'm perceiving reality now. And so. And that's what attachment cells are really. I mean, I talked a little bit about attachment styles. They're, you know, basically like your relationship with your parents that then shapes how you perceive reality going forward in a way that you see things that match that reality of how they treated you and ignore information that's counter to it. And so, you know, if you have a lot of unprocess stuff, you're going to see rejection where it's not there. You're going to assume people don't like you even if they really do. You are going to have trouble doing all the things that make connection but also are so risky, which are like being vulnerable or initiating a new friendship or sharing affection with people. All of those things are going to feel a lot more scary and high stakes because they're again, building off of every. It's like you're having all the experiences you had of rejection before at once. Unless you revisit those experiences and clean them out a little bit.

[Elise Hu]

It so good.

[Dory Shafrier]

What is something that in your research and just everything you've been writing about the science of friendship that you have found sort of surprises people the most or is maybe like counterintuitive?

[Advertiser]

Yeah. So I think, you know, especially when I speak on friendship at different organizations, one theme that I really like to emphasize is this concept of under sociality, which means that when we predict the impact of our behaviors towards connection, we underestimate how much people value them. So specific examples, when strangers interact and report how much they like each other, they underestimate how liked they are. It's called the liking gap. When people do random acts of kindness, they're told to give someone hot chocolate at the ice skating rink and report how much joy that will bring. They underestimate how much joy it will bring. When people are told to write cards to people they love and predict how much people will appreciate that, they underestimate how much people appreciate that. When people rekindle relationships with people they've fallen out of touch with, often they assume they've moved on. They don't want to hear from me. They underestimate just how much people value that act. And so across the board, we are a lot more scared than what is warranted by the reality. In fact, people tend to enjoy when we reach out to them, when we tell them how much we value them, when we're kind towards Them, they're not like, you're a freak that's coming on too strong, which is like, I think what critical voice tells a lot of us? And so one tip that I try to tell people because our brain is glitchy in this way of valuing safety over connection when the two are pitted against each other is instead of thinking about, how will that friend see it if I reach out to them, ask yourself, how would I see it if they reached out to me? How would I see it if they affirmed me? How would I see it if they were vulnerable with me? Because then you're probably, you know, you get kind of get over a little bit that are built in, like, safety mechanism of being very cynical. And you're getting a lot more accurate take on how your friend will probably receive the active connection that you put.

[Elise Hu]

Out out and on that aspect of rekindling friendships. So a lot of folks I remember studying regret or doing some reading around regret. The takeaway that I recall is that, like, the one regret that's very difficult to metabolize is the what if, like, if you didn't, you know, if you didn't do something that's kind of like the one regret that you. You kind of hold on to because miss that opportunity. So. So for folks who kind of want to rekindle a friendship or they've lost touch with somebody over a long period of time, but they're too scared because it's like, oh, it's been so much time, slow, faded. What advice do you have?

[Advertiser]

Well, first, I tell you that that's really normal. The number one reason friendships end is because they fade, not because we hate each other and don't want to talk to each other anymore. So you're certainly not alone. Second, I would tell you that the person probably wants to hear from you more than you're assuming, if you're anything like the research. And third, I would say one good way to reach out to people from your past is to just share a memory. Oh, I was just thinking about that time we, you know, went to that awesome book talk on platonic love together. I was just thinking about that restaurant we went to when we had that amazing thing. And it made me want to reach out to you and see how you're doing. And then if they're responsive, you can say, I have just been. Really? Yeah. And I would love to, like, reconnect sometime, like if you're open to it, and then take it from there.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. That reminds me of what one of our guests on the topic of friendship talked about in terms of. In real life, memories. Like, the reason why in real life, hanging out in real life is so important in nurturing our friendships is because you make memories. Because nobody's like, hey, that one zoom we had that one time.

[Advertiser]

No, that has never happened to me. No one has ever said that, though. Maybe after today, I will remind you all of this one Zoom we had today.

[Elise Hu]

So memorable. As we age, can friendship kind of be the fuel that really, like, fuels a life well lived and a full life?

[Advertiser]

You know what's so cool about friendship? Like, as we get older, a lot of our relationships are, like, set right. Like, maybe you married someone, you're gonna stay married to them and like, your family. Like, I don't know, everyone's popping out babies not so often in the larger lifespan of things. But friends, you kind of can keep making them, and they can keep bringing, like, this fresh energy into your life. And like, like that is so meaningful. And there is research that finds that in old age, friend time with friends predicts, like, health better than time with spouse or time with family. And part of the reason that is is because we tend to be so intentional about time with friends. It's not like, oh, like, you know, I guess we're going to sit next to each other and, like, watch Netflix another day, right? It's like, let's plan an activity. Like, there's just a bit more intentionality behind it. And so we're doing things that we really enjoy because friendship isn't a default relationship in some ways. Like, other types of relationships are where we just, you know, you're here when I get home. Hello. I have to make the time. Which also means I have to choose an activity maybe that I would actually really want to do and have the time to do this with you. So friendship and old age is so important. And we also see that, you know, commonly cited statistic loneliness is as toxic as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. And you know, what researchers say is like, the. What really gets us to age is like, even more than, like, like, you know, habits, harmful health habits. It's like loneliness, like, loneliness really ages us. Part of the reason is when we're lonely, our body gets into a state of chronic stress where we're perceiving everything happening around us as more threatening, impacting us more negatively than we would if we were in a state of connection. And just in terms of biologically, when we connect with people, we release oxytocin, which researchers also call a hormone that is the fountain of youth. It Keeps us young. So it's just really, really important and critical, like, as we get older, to be investing in these connections.

[Elise Hu]

Plus, with partnered older people, women outlive men. And so. So, yeah, it's really important.

[Dory Shafrier]

I know you mentioned that your next book is about healing, but I'm wondering also if you have other, like, big friendship questions that you are interested in doing more research on.

[Advertiser]

I'm really interested in this question of, like, not how we make friends, but how do we make community? And I think community is different because I don't necessari have to like you to be in community of you. It's just we are committed to taking care of each other. When you need something, I'm trying to give it to you. Like, there's a general ethos of, like, it's like, somewhat my business, like, how you are doing, and somewhat my responsibility. Right. And I think, especially, like, in these times, we need to be thinking about, like, community more and, like, how do we take care of each other and, like, what does it look like to build community in, like, especially in such an individualistic culture? And so I think that has been a question that's been on my mind.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And it dovetails so much. Yeah. And it dovetails really nicely with a question that we wanted to kind of leave you with, which is how have you made it easier for community to mix in with the rest of your life?

[Advertiser]

Ooh, what a good question. Well, I try to create community everywhere I go. So, for example, like, I teach a class on why, why are we all so lonely? And how to make friends. And the assignments are like, hang out with each other without your phones and plan a social event for the class. And every day, the class starts with people sharing photos from their lives and ends with them sharing something they appreciate. And I started the social committee at my job, and we plan happy hours bi weekly. I, you know, have joined some organizing communities, and I've been like, hey, like, make the movement irresistible. I think Grace Lee Boggs said. And I think how we make it irresistible is make it a place where people belong. So I'm like, we're starting with an icebreaker. We're ending by affirming something someone else has said. I just see it as. It's kind of like the water underneath everything, right? Like, us being good at everything, us being good at our work, you know, being good parents, you know, performing well, us political movements. Right. Connection is just underneath all of those things. It's never irrelevant to me.

[Elise Hu]

Lovely. Lovely. Well, Dr. Marisa Franco, before we Let you go. Let us know how folks can find you and if you want to share when your next book is going to arrive and all of that.

[Advertiser]

Yeah. So at my Instagram Dr.marissagfranco.com that's D R M A R I S A G F R A N C O. I share tips on the science of connection at my website, Dr. Marissa to gfranco.com you can take a quiz that assesses your strengths and weaknesses as a friend, gives you some feedback, and you can reach out for any speaking events I speak on belonging at work or how to make friends more generally.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. My one tip is don't correct your friends on how they spell. Fabulous. Thanks, Dr. Franko.

[Advertiser]

Yeah, this is my pleasure. Bye.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know what I thought would be an interesting like, like, companion piece to some of these Friends Friendship expert episodes is if we interviewed the friendship. The friends of the friendship experts.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yeah. Like, who's your best friend? And then we go call up their best friend.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. And. And we're like, so is Dr. Franco really a good friend?

[Elise Hu]

I bet they are. I bet they're amazing.

[Dory Shafrier]

I know. I bet they're all really good friends. Just kind of made me laugh. Okay, so last week I was talking about how my husband and I were doing these action items, and we are still. We're still, like, pretty much doing them. We're definitely, like, having more conversations about, like, things we need to do. And he saw someone he knows who. He saw someone he knows who had gone to rehab. And this friend was like, hey, here's what I paid, like, tens of thousands of dollars to learn. Like, you can't fixate on the mistakes, or, like, you can't fixate on the past. You can't fixate on things that you should have done differently. And you can't, like, worry too much about the future. You have to live in the present. You have to think about, what do I need to do today? And of course, you know, that's, like, very oversimplified, but I think it really, like, like, sunk in on a. On a sort of, like, deep level, because I do think that, you know, as Matt and I are going through a lot of these challenges right now, it's so easy to be like, oh, you know what we really should have done, xyz, and then get, like, caught up in that. And so not doing that, I think is something that we're focusing on. So that is part of my intention for next week and also just show up. I'm just going to continue to show.

[Elise Hu]

Up, up well, yeah, I mean, it's a. It's a blessing for the rest of us. All your friends get to enjoy you.

[Dory Shafrier]

When you show up, so lucky them. Lucky them.

[Elise Hu]

Lucky me.

[Dory Shafrier]

Lucky you. What about you, Elise? You were gonna exercise again.

[Elise Hu]

That didn't work out, y'all.

[Advertiser]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, well, you know, you were traveling.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I was. I. I've just. I'm, like, at capacity. I. I don't. I feel like I haven't been this busy since probably foreign correspondence days. And it's because. Because I'm so close to trying to find some sort of financing for this documentary project that wouldn't have started had Los Angeles not caught on fire. So it wasn't planned for my 2025 that my year would suddenly become more busy, but Los Angeles caught on fire. And so that led to this new creative project, which is following teenage fire victims. So that's been nuts. So I went and took one tennis lesson. So, like, one out of five days isn't bad. I try to, you know, have a unit of exercise five days of the week, but I made it one day. So let's. I'm going to repeat my intention. We're going to try this again. We're going to re rack. We're reracking this intention.

[Dory Shafrier]

We're re racking. Did you go back. Did you go back to your old tennis instructor?

[Elise Hu]

No.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay. All right.

[Elise Hu]

I think that's why I can't find him.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I think that's. I think that's for the best for both of us. For everyone. Yeah, for everyone.

[Elise Hu]

He was getting hounded by me. He still owes me one lesson, but we're just gonna have to let this go.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. All right. All right. Well, before we say goodbye, we like to thank our Patreon supporters at the hotel spa and suite levels, which is the $10 level or above, as part of our thanks to you. You get your name read on the podcast each and every month. And since Elise did it last month, I will. I will take it this month.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thank you. To the following Forever35 Patreon supporters. Caitlin H. Katie Ashley Taylor, Theresa Anderson, Michelle Maya Barbara Chiakalos Amy Sarah Fitz, Amy Schnitzer, Heather Hale, Megan Donald Brew Jr. Helen De Moy, Shelly Lee, Kim Begler, Sarah Sarah Boozy, Allison Cohen, Susan Berseth, Melissa McLean, Lenny Jones Fran Kelsey Wolf Donne Laura Eddy, Jeddel Apte, Valerie Bruno, Julie Daniel Katie Cotron E. Jackson, Alicia Amy Maseko, Liz Rain, JDK Jennifer Smith, Hannah M. Julia Putt, Maddie O'Day, Marissa Lauren Gitlin, Sarah Bell, Maria Diana, Cocoa Bean, Laura Haddon, Josie H, Nikki Bossert, Juliana Duff, Chelsea Torres, Angie James, Tiffany G, Emily McIntyre, Stephanie Germana, Elizabeth Anderson, Kelly Dearborn, Christine Bassis, Allison Marklaine, Jessica Gale, Zulima Lundy, Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Golds and T. Nikki, Catherine El, Kara Brugman, Sarah H, Sarah Egan, Jess Combin, Jennifer Olson, Jennifer hs, Eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brianne Macy, Karen Perelman, Katie Jordan, Sarah M, Lisa Travis, Kate M, Emily Brier, Josie Alquist, Tara Todd, Elizabeth Cleary and Monica. I have no idea what order those are in, but I'm sure Patreon has some some idea of what order those are in. But thank you all so much. We are so grateful for your support. If you want to support us on patreon, get those CA chats, those pop culture recs, the Forever 35 questionnaire, all kinds of other fun bonus content. You can do [e-mail] Forever35 and Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is acast. Thanks everybody.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you guys.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bye.

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