Forever35 Podcast Episode 343: Room For Change with Olga Khazan

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Olga Khazan, Staff Writer at The Atlantic and Author of Me: The Science and Promise of Personality Change
Release Date: March 10, 2025

1. Introduction

In Episode 343 of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu welcome Olga Khazan, a staff writer at The Atlantic and the author of Me: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. Olga shares her intriguing journey of self-experimentation aimed at altering her personality traits based on the scientifically recognized Big Five model.

2. Self-Care Practices

Doree Shafrir begins by discussing her personal self-care routine, particularly how she combats Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) through hot yoga. She mentions, “[00:11:51] To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com ad free podcasts...” highlighting the importance of maintaining mental well-being.

Olga Khazan empathizes with Doree’s struggles, sharing her own experiences with SAD and emphasizing the significance of self-care in one's daily routine.

3. Olga's Background and Journey into Personality Change

Elise Hu introduces Olga Khazan, highlighting her contributions to various esteemed publications and her dedication to exploring human behavior. Olga delves into her motivation for writing Me, explaining her desire to understand and potentially modify aspects of her personality that were hindering her well-being.

4. Understanding the Big Five Personality Traits

Doree Shafrir provides a comprehensive overview of the Big Five personality traits, using the acronym OCEAN:

• O: Openness to Experience – Creativity and imagination.
• C: Conscientiousness – Organization and dependability.
• E: Extroversion – Sociability and outgoingness.
• A: Agreeableness – Warmth and empathy.
• N: Neuroticism – Tendency towards anxiety and depression.

She explains, “[23:54] ... Openness to experiences, which is sort of like creativity and imagination...”

5. Olga's Personality Assessment and Motivation for Change

Olga Khazan discusses her initial recognition of areas needing improvement, such as her low extroversion, high neuroticism, and agreeableness. She recounts a pivotal day in Miami where she experienced a significant emotional meltdown, prompting her to take a scientific personality test. The results confirmed her self-observations: high neuroticism, low extroversion, and slight disagreeableness.

6. Designing the Experiment to Change Personality Traits

Doree Shafrir elaborates on Olga’s methodical approach to altering her personality traits:

• Extroversion: Olga forced herself to engage in social activities like sailing clubs and improv classes, which unexpectedly led her to enjoy social interactions more than anticipated. “[27:55] ... Forcing myself to leave the house... I ended up having a good time.”

• Neuroticism: She incorporated meditation and acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) to manage her anxiety and negative emotions.

• Agreeableness: Olga made conscious efforts to be more empathetic and friendly, enhancing her interactions and relationships.

7. Insights and Outcomes from the Experiment

Olga Khazan shares the positive changes resulting from her experiment:

• Increased Extroversion: Contrary to her expectations, Olga found that engaging in social activities was not draining but rather fulfilling.

• Reduced Neuroticism: While her anxiety levels remained relatively high, her approach to handling negative emotions improved significantly through meditation and ACT.

• Enhanced Agreeableness: She became more amiable and open in her interactions, fostering stronger relationships.

She notes, “[31:29] ... I really changed a lot on extroversion, and I changed, like, a fair amount on neuroticism...”

8. Application to Friendship and Motherhood

Olga Khazan discusses how her personality changes positively impacted her friendships and approach to motherhood:

• Friendships: By being more extroverted and agreeable, Olga successfully formed new friendships, including one via Bumble BFF, which she highlights as a "success story."

• Motherhood: Enhanced extroversion allowed her to connect more deeply with other mothers, reducing feelings of loneliness and building a supportive community.

She shares, “[35:09] ... I wouldn’t have been as proactive about reaching out to other parents...”

9. Coping in a High-Stress Environment

Given the current high-stress climate in the United States, exacerbated by political tensions and societal fractures, Olga Khazan offers valuable coping strategies derived from her research:

• Acknowledging Valid Feelings: Recognize and accept your anxiety as valid responses to real stressors.

• Action-Oriented Approach: Use anxiety as a motivator to take proactive steps, such as researching solutions or engaging in community actions.

• Worry Periods: Allocate specific times to address anxieties, preventing them from overwhelming daily life.

She advises, “[39:22] ... acknowledge that those feelings are valid... use the anxiety to motivate you to do whatever needs to be done.”

10. Maintenance and Future Directions

Olga Khazan emphasizes that personality changes require ongoing effort and maintenance. The routines and behaviors that facilitated her growth must be sustained to maintain the benefits. She also acknowledges limitations, such as not exploring methods like psychedelics due to legal and ethical concerns.

She remarks, “[43:47] ... I didn’t do psychedelics...”

11. Conclusion and Where to Find Olga's Work

Doree Shafrir wraps up the discussion by providing information on how listeners can engage with Olga Khazan’s work:

• Contact Information: Olga can be reached via email at olga@theatlantic.com and her Substack at olgakazan.substack.com.

Olga Khazan expresses gratitude for the conversation, stating, “[44:55] ... I feel like I learned a lot from Olga, both talking to her and reading her book.”

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Doree Shafrir [00:11:51]: “I do hot yoga. And for that hour a week, you know, whatever it is, however often I can do it, it really feels like it's not winter, which is great.”

• Doree Shafrir [23:54]: “There are five traits. They're called the Big Five and you can remember them with the acronym ocean.”

• Olga Khazan [15:26]: “Introversion in and of itself is not quote, unquote bad. It's just how these things are making you feel...”

• Doree Shafrir [26:53]: “I basically broke it down trait by trait. And then I looked at the psychological literature...”

• Olga Khazan [31:29]: “I really changed a lot on extroversion, and I changed, like, a fair amount on neuroticism...”

• Olga Khazan [35:09]: “I’m not going to be as proactive about reaching out to other parents...”

• Olga Khazan [39:22]: “Acknowledge that those feelings are valid... use the anxiety to motivate you to do whatever needs to be done.”

Additional Resources and Connections

Listeners interested in Olga Khazan’s insights and further exploration of personality change can connect with her through her work at The Atlantic and her Substack newsletter. Her book, Me: The Science and Promise of Personality Change, offers an in-depth look at her self-experimentation and the broader implications for personal development.

This episode provides a compelling exploration of the malleability of personality traits and offers actionable strategies for individuals seeking personal growth. Olga Khazan’s honest reflection and scientific approach present a hopeful narrative that personality change is not only possible but also attainable with the right methodologies and commitment.