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- [00:00]
Dory Shafrir
Hey prime members, are you tired of ads interfering with your favorite podcasts?
- [00:04]
Elise Hu
Good news.
- [00:05]
Olga Kazan
With Amazon Music, you have access to.
- [00:07]
Dory Shafrir
The largest catalog of ad free top.
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Olga Kazan
Podcasts included with your prime membership.
- [00:12]
Dory Shafrir
To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com ad free podcasts. That's Amazon.com ad freepodcasts to catch up.
- [00:24]
Olga Kazan
On the latest episodes without the ads.
- [00:29]
Elise Hu
I recently got to try Laundry Sauce's laundry pods. And when I tell you they smell amazing, I mean it. It's laundry like you've never smelled it before. With perfume quality scents like Australian sandalwood and Egyptian rose. Crafted with natural, responsibly sourced ingredients, Laundry Sauce isn't just the world's best smelling laundry detergent. It's a game changing laundry pod. I've been using these orange pods that are the Italian bergam scent and it is fantastic. It's not too much because my kids would get annoyed by too much scent and then for me it's like just so clean and fresh. So I'm super excited about it. Laundry Sauce isn't just about premium laundry pods. It's a full upgrade for your laundry routine. With their fabric softener, dryer sheets and more, you have everything you need to transform your laundry experience from basic to extraordinary. Best part, they offer a full money back guarantee. If you don't get better smelling cleaner laundry, you get a full refund, no questions asked. For a limited time only, our listeners get 20 off your entire order when you use the code F35laundry sauce.com. that's 20 off your order at laundry sauce.com with promo code F35. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them we sent you. Smell good, look good, feel good with Laundry Sauce.
- [02:07]
Olga Kazan
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.
- [02:13]
Elise Hu
And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums and other things.
- [02:19]
Olga Kazan
Oh yes, other things too. How's it going? Elise?
- [02:22]
Elise Hu
I gotta tell you, this is sort of serum adjustment. Adjacent there is that brand tower 2828. They are coming out with blushes soon. And so my daughter Ava got hip to this because we have a shop my code for Tower 28 products because they want us to try it and she learned about this and she was like, oh my gosh, there are blushes coming out. There is a way for us to like. She was like, this is the first time I've known about something coming out before they've actually come out.
- [02:55]
Olga Kazan
Oh, boy.
- [02:56]
Elise Hu
She's so excited. She's so excited. Yes. This Tower 28 is very exciting among the youth. And so just wanted to shout out to our friends there, for no particular reason, they didn't ask us to do this. Ava's just very excited. And we are friends who like to talk a lot about serum, so I love that.
- [03:14]
Olga Kazan
I love that.
- [03:16]
Elise Hu
Jermaine.
- [03:17]
Olga Kazan
Totally. What else is happening?
- [03:22]
Elise Hu
It is the Monday following last week's Oscar Sunday, and I did a whole sort of, like, behind the scenes. This is what happened. This is why these were the fun things about being at the Oscars and these were sort of like the strange things about being at the Oscars for our casual chat last Friday.
- [03:43]
Olga Kazan
Yes.
- [03:43]
Elise Hu
So those of y'all who are members of our Patreon, you can dip into that exciting summation on our Patreon because we go into it. But the main takeaway about the mood was that I don't know if it's because of world events or just the mood of Hollywood, but what was really strange about being under the tent up until the point that you got to the red carpet was just how quiet it was. It was like Oscar's church. So. And folks who have been there before were like, it was strangely not chaotic and not loud. And so I don't know if that's an indication of what's just going on. That's like the mood. But, I mean, the show was awesome. It was just like the vibes felt.
- [04:34]
Olga Kazan
The vibes were off.
- [04:35]
Dory Shafrir
Kind of.
- [04:36]
Elise Hu
The vibes were off. Yeah, yeah. Just. Just chill. Just chill. What about you? What are the headlines? What are the headlines in your world?
- [04:46]
Olga Kazan
The headlines. Let's see. The headlines are Matt and I have been watching season one of Traitors.
- [04:56]
Elise Hu
Oh, you're going back. That's right.
- [04:58]
Olga Kazan
So we're going back.
- [05:00]
Elise Hu
If you all are just joining us, Door is a huge fan of Traitors, the show. The reality competition show hosted by Alan Cummings, in which former reality show stars like from Big Brother and Survivor participate in a giant game of Mafia and. Or werewolf, depending on what. Which one you played in a mansion in Scotland. In Scotland. Season 3 finale just aired last Thursday, but Dory and Matt are going way back. They're going into the archives.
- [05:32]
Olga Kazan
They are. So it's funny because I had watched the first few episodes of season one when they aired, and I just, for whatever reason, I just couldn't get into it. I think I just wasn't like, I Wasn't in the right frame of mind for it. Now that the world is falling apart, I'm like, great, give me traitors.
- [05:49]
Elise Hu
Yes.
- [05:50]
Olga Kazan
I'm here for is just funny because I do think that this happens to every single reality show ever made. First season, everyone is just sort of like themselves. And then if the show is successful and they get more famous, season two rolls around and they've gotten, like, veneers and hair extensions and, like, they just look like much more glam. And in the first season, Alan coming, the host, he's not, like, schlubby, but he's not as camp as he is in season three. Season three is like, he is camping it up. And in season three, he's just like a little. He's a little campy, but not that much. Like, really not that much. And, like, there's some episodes where, like, his hair looks uncombed. You know what I mean? Like, and now in season three, it's like he's spending, like, two hours in the hair and makeup chair before they start rolling. You know, it's. It's very funny to, like, watch them side by side now.
- [06:59]
Elise Hu
It's not even just the aesthetics, though. I feel like all these reality stars and the hosts end up elevating or doing elevated or exaggerated versions of their personalities too.
- [07:11]
Olga Kazan
Thousand percent.
- [07:12]
Elise Hu
So Alan Cumming was already. So Alan Cumming, but now he's like, at a 15.
- [07:18]
Olga Kazan
Oh, yeah. Yes. Now he is really. It's really next level. It's very funny, but we're enjoying it. And I think I've mentioned on another. Another episode, the first season of Traders us, they did half reality stars and half, like, normal people. And I think they were like, okay, we just need to do all reality stars. So it is kind of funny to be watching it now with, like, this, this other season, because in the. In the versions in the other countries, because it started in the uk, they just do normal people. It's not reality stars.
- [07:55]
Elise Hu
Oh, I would enjoy that too. I mean, I feel like it's the mix that doesn't really work.
- [07:59]
Olga Kazan
I think, like, either go with all.
- [08:01]
Elise Hu
Reality stars or all normal Normie, but.
- [08:03]
Dory Shafrir
Not.
- [08:06]
Olga Kazan
Most of these people. Like, the people on Big Brother, at least for the first million seasons, were normals. Like, they were just normal people who decided to be on a reality show. So, like, same with Survivor. Like, there's. There's a lot of precedent for just, like, normal people going on reality shows and then becoming famous. But anyway, just. It's just interesting we got into this more on the on the Patreon pop culture episode, I'm going to stop talking about Traders because I feel like it might be of interest to, like, me and three other people, but Dory's been.
- [08:43]
Elise Hu
Talking about Traders a lot. So if you are into Traders content, we not only have it on this episode of our regular feed, but it's also part of our pop culture March pop culture bonanza, which is on our Patreon. So there's Oscars stuff on the casual chat, there's trainers and other television, film, music and books commentary that's also on our Patreon. There's a lot going on over there and there's a lot going on here, too, because we are now wrapped up with Friendship Month and we're getting back into guests that may not be tied to a particular theme. And thank you all for all of your Friendship Month support and your questions and your participation as well. It was really fruitful. Fruitful. We just put out a newsletter with some takeaways from Friendship Month that we are actually going to and have already implemented in our own lives. And so if you don't get the newsletter, check that out as well.
- [09:43]
Olga Kazan
And actually on Wednesday's mini app, we have some more feedback from listeners about Friendship Month, including some stuff from listeners who, like, implemented some of the stuff they learned during Friendship Month, which is pretty cool.
- [09:59]
Elise Hu
Oh, I'm excited.
- [10:00]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. Yay. Yeah. Okay, let me just remind everyone they can Visit our website, forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are also on Instagram @February35 podcast. We like to post some fun clips from the show with a video on our Instagram, so you can go check those out. Our Patreon that we've been talking about is at patreon.com forever35. Our shop my is at shopmy us forever35. We have our newsletter forever35podcast.com newsletter and you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com do you want to introduce Olga?
- [10:41]
Elise Hu
Yes. So today we are really excited to talk with Olga Kazan, who is a staff writer at the Atlantic. You have probably read her stories if you're not familiar with her specific byline. She's the author of Me but the Science and Promise of Personality Change. She's also written for the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post and other publications. And she's been writing a fascinating substack on personality change. She sort of guinea pigged herself and played with dynamics of her own personality for the purposes of her reporting. And then eventually these findings all wound up in her book. So it's really fascinating. She talks us through all of that and we learned a lot.
- [11:25]
Olga Kazan
We did. All right, here is Olga. Olga, we are so thrilled to have you on Forever 35. Welcome to the show.
- [11:36]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
- [11:38]
Olga Kazan
We always start out by asking our guests if they have a self care practice that they would like to share. So is there anything that you do that you would consider self care?
- [11:51]
Dory Shafrir
Yes. So readers of the book will know that I have seasonal affective disorder. So February is not prime time for me, but I do hot yoga. And for that hour a week, you know, whatever it is, however often I can do it, it really feels like it's not winter, which is great.
- [12:10]
Elise Hu
Do you have one of those lights?
- [12:13]
Dory Shafrir
I do have a light. The light doesn't really work on me, but yeah, the lights are. I'm pro light.
- [12:19]
Elise Hu
Okay.
- [12:19]
Olga Kazan
I lived in the northeast for the first, like 35 years of my life, and I also had diagnosed seasonal affective disorder. So I. I empathize. It's like, really not fun.
- [12:32]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah, it's. It's rough. Yeah.
- [12:35]
Elise Hu
Well, Olga, we just introduced you with your formal bio, but instead of. We want to go beyond the bio. So talk to us about who you are and how you would describe yourself, because I think that's an important premise to get into talking about your book and the experiment that's central to it.
- [12:54]
Dory Shafrir
Oh, okay. Good question. So I'm a writer. I'm a mom now. So I think I have to say mom because, like, all, like, professional moms are like, mama, like. Yeah, so I'm that and wife. I can't forget that. And I've been a. I've been a writer almost my entire professional life now. And yeah, I've always been interested in human behavior and sort of the way the mind works and the way people work. And so for this book, I really took that lens to myself and saw if I could change some patterns of behavior that were not working for me.
- [13:38]
Elise Hu
Yeah. What wasn't working for you? So give us kind of how you assessed yourself or how you found your personality traits to be in an official, recognized assessment.
- [13:49]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah, so. So this started when sort of I noticed the problems. And then I took a test and it was like, oh, yes, there are problems. So I noticed that every time something mildly stressful happened, I kind of had a tendency to blow it up into a much bigger deal than it was. So the book kind of starts with this day in Miami. Like, if I just said all the stuff that happened that day, everyone would be like, so, like, that's typical Tuesday, whatever. And. But I just really had a meltdown at the end of this day because I. My tolerance for stress and negative emotions was so low, and I just had such high levels of these negative feelings. And I also noticed that I just, like, was kind of, like, lonely. Like, I didn't really socialize with anyone. I, like, not just because of COVID but just, like, kind of a Covid hangover for me of, like, just not ever, like, going out. And I just saw a number of areas of my life that could kind of use an upgrade, if that makes sense. And so I did take a real personality test designed by a scientist, and it was like, yes, you are unusually neurotic, which is the part that correlates with the negative feelings. You are not very extroverted, which would explain why I never went out to socialize. And you're also a little bit disagreeable, which is the part where, like, you just. You're kind of. You're kind of prickly. And so I was like, huh, I should. I should maybe change that stuff.
- [15:27]
Olga Kazan
One of the things that I think is interesting in what you did, and you touch on this in the book, is that, like, introversion in and of itself is not quote, unquote bad. It's just how these things are making you feel and this idea that there might be a way to be happier. So I was wondering if you could, like, expand on that a little bit. Like, how did you sort of parse that out?
- [15:53]
Dory Shafrir
Sure. So I think there's sort of a lay definition of introversion, which I think is actually fine. So I think if you. If I'm about to describe what I think the lay definition is, and I think if you fit this description, you're okay and you don't need to change. Right. So it's people who are. Are, like, normal, outgoing, can talk to people, don't have social anxiety, don't feel unusually lonely, are a part of their community, but they just feel more themselves when they have quiet time, when they are by themselves, when they're on their. They just feel more replenished, and they, like, maybe need a little bit more of that than the average bear. I think that's totally legit. And so do all the researchers that I talked to. My thing was a little bit more of, like, what the scientific definition of introversion is, which is someone who really is not cheerful, like, literally. They don't. They don't have good cheer, positive emotions. They don't make an effort to be around people. Like quite often they would choose to be just by themselves, not just to recharge, but kind of all the time. And they also just are not very active. So part of extroversion is actually just getting out there. So even something like going to church you wouldn't think is a very extroverted activity. But that could be a form of extroversion or going to like a knitting club where you're all sitting around quietly knitting. That is still extroversion because you're around other people and you're engaged in an activity. So those were the parts of extroversion that I really wanted to work on rather than just like being a party animal, if that makes sense.
- [17:39]
Olga Kazan
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- [19:08]
Elise Hu
To treat myself with a nice piece of clothing or jewelry. And nice might not have meant luxury before, but with quints it can and it does. Recently I decided to treat My family members and I got Luna some comfy donut pajamas. So it's a pajama set, a twin set with little donuts on them which is one of her favorite foods. Quince offers a range of high quality items like these really comfy PJs for kids and adults at prices within reach. There are 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50. Washable silk tops and dresses, organic cotton sweaters, 14 karat gold jewelry. That's 50 to 80% less than similar brands. This isn't a fast fashion situation where the price you pay comes at the cost of the person on the other end of the production process. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. The discount comes from cutting out the middleman and their profit margin. So give yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quince.com forever35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn.com forever35 I always felt limited by.
- [20:30]
Olga Kazan
Off the shelf hair care. It was like one or the other like color protection or volume repair or clarify. You know what I mean? Like you got one thing. I know always one thing. But never like everything I needed. And pros changed that. I love my pros because I could tell it like hey, I have color treated hair. It's a little dry. I'm getting older. I live in Los Angeles. We have really hard water.
- [20:55]
Dory Shafrir
Right.
- [20:55]
Olga Kazan
You know all of these different factors. And then they put it in their algorithm and they're like. And they spit out a personalized formula just for you. It's a unique blend of naturally powerful and proven effective clean ingredients carefully picked just for you from over 185 options. That means a shampoo that works for your hair density, your porosity, where you work out even the pollution where you live. Like they ask for your zip code so they can be like does she live in the middle of Los Angeles where there is a lot of pollution?
- [21:30]
Elise Hu
Right.
- [21:30]
Olga Kazan
All to determine exactly what your hair needs to thrive. And it's all backed by clinical studies. I will say my hair has never looked healthier. Like I'm getting, I'm getting comments about it. And I also think it's because they have given me the perfect conditioner formula that actually conditions. Yeah. But doesn't weigh my hair down and doesn't make it look greasy. Which is like a holy grail, essentially. Pros also has 500,000-star product reviews, and they have the Pros promise if you don't love your first order, it's Prose is so confident that you'll love your results that they're offering an exclusive trial offer. 50% off your first hair care subscription order at Prose.com Forever35 that's P-R-O-S-E.com Forever35 for your free consultation and 50 off your custom routine. Prose.com Forever35 this episode is brought to you by BetterHelp.
- [22:32]
Elise Hu
The smartest people in the room are the people who know how and when to ask for help. As we've learned in our Friendship Month series, our support systems make our relationships stronger and build us up. Whether your therapist is part of your support system or you need help with your hyper independence or something in between, therapy could be the thing for you. If therapy has taught me anything, it's that it never hurts and actually is usually very helpful to talk things through and get some extra perspective.
- [23:00]
Olga Kazan
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- [23:22]
Elise Hu
Build your support system with better help. Visit betterhelp.com forever35 to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp H-E-L-P.com forever35 just to back up a bit, extroversion is one of the five dynamics or personality traits that scientists measure us on, right? So can you talk us through those five and why our personalities are measured this way?
- [23:54]
Dory Shafrir
Sure. Yeah. So there, yeah, there, there are five traits. They're called the Big five and you can remember them with the acronym ocean. So O is for openness to experiences, which is sort of like creativity and imagination. Sometimes like political liberalism is also lumped in there. Then it's conscientiousness, which is sort of like getting things done, you know, being on time, answering all your emails, you know, being really organized. Extroversion, which is sort of what I just described, being kind of outgoing and active. Agreeableness, which is sort of being very warm and empathetic and just like friendly. And neuroticism for N, which is a bad Thing, it's basically anxiety and depression. The flip side of neuroticism is called emotional stability. And that's the thing you do want.
- [24:52]
Olga Kazan
How much of this is predetermined by genetics? Like, how doomed are we or, you know, blessed are we to inherit the personalities of our parents?
- [25:05]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah. So this is a part that I. I was really curious about as well. And the way it was explained to me by experts who study behavioral genetics is that you get about 40 to 60% of your personality through your genes. But that doesn't mean that you are sort of exactly like your parents 40 to 60% of the way. Because if you think about it, inherit genes from your parents, but they kind of like, end up in combinations that are unique to you. So maybe you have, like, a little bit of introversion from your mom, but it doesn't, like, manifest in the exact same way that hers does. Or maybe you have a little bit of anxiety from your dad, but you're actually, like, a lot less anxious than he is. It just, like, is something that's, like, a little bit there. So this is, like, similar to how, like, you do not look exactly like either of your parents or act exactly like either of them. Similarly, your personality is going to be pretty different from them, even though you are genetically related. And that other 40 to 60% of your personality is sort of just, like, up to your. You and your life and like, what happens to you. It's sort of individually determined. So that is, like, kind of promising, I think.
- [26:22]
Elise Hu
Yeah. Because it's sort of not fatalistic. It means that there is room for change, which leads to your book and the central experiment of it. So you set out to. For listeners who haven't heard about it yet, you set out to try and see how to tweak or maybe improve on some of the measures of the personality traits that you wanted to improve on. Right. Like, maybe increase your agreeableness or openness. Tell us how you went about it.
- [26:54]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah. So there were three traits that I really wanted to work on personally, which was extroversion, neuroticism, and agreeableness. I actually scored really high on openness and conscientiousness. So I didn't, like, personally, like, do anything to, like, improve those as much. That was mostly me interviewing other people about how they change their own levels of those traits. But what I did is I basically broke it down trait by trait. And then I looked at the psychological literature, the studies that have been done, at what actually helps people increase on each of those traits, and I created, like, A little regimen for myself. And I did activities that are meant to make you increase or change on those personality traits that you're working on, you know, and it was different depending on which trait.
- [27:50]
Elise Hu
What stands out to you among your guinea pigging?
- [27:55]
Dory Shafrir
The thing that I think worked most quickly and, like, the best, and I was like, whoa. Is extroversion, which is that. And this is, like, kind of in line with how people say extroversion works, which is that once I just, like, forced myself to leave the house. Like, I basically signed up for all these activities, you know, So I had a commitment device. If I, like, forced myself to go, I ended up having a good time. And I realized that I craved that social interaction the next time. Like, I wasn't actually this, like, little hermit who liked to be in my house alone all the time. Like, I found that once I started doing it, I, like, my brain was like, oh, this is good. We should keep doing this. But I would not have predicted that before. Like, I didn't actually realize that's how that works, because I had always thought, like, if you're an introvert, then socializing, you know, doing stuff with other people, it's draining. Like, you have to recover from it. But that isn't how I felt at all.
- [28:57]
Olga Kazan
You touch on this in the. One of the later chapters of your book, if not the last chapter, but sort of like, when to Quit and this concept of acceptance and commitment therapy. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about that. When do you know that your personality has changed enough?
- [29:20]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah, totally. So I started struggling with this toward the end of my project because I was doing all these activities and doing all these activities. And first of all, I was just really busy. I was running out of time to do more stuff between all my meditating and then sailing club and improv club class and, like, all the stuff I was doing. And I. I was sort of like, how do you know? Like, when. And you know at the same time, a lot of it is. Is very uncomfortable. Like, an improv showcase for someone who is an introvert and is not kind of a natural performer is very uncomfortable. And I was like, is this a. Like, is this something where I need to push through the discomfort in order to, like, get to the, like, better side of the personality trait? Or is this something where I'm just, like, not really sure I should be doing it? And one activity like that that I ended up quitting is actually running my own meetup group because. And this comes from acceptance and commitment therapy. I Realized that it wasn't really in line with, like, what that. What that researcher calls your, like, your values. Basically, it's all that form of therapy is all about following your values, identifying them, and then kind of doing things that align with them. And so one of my values was to be more extroverted. And part of extroversion is, like, having fun and, like, doing things you enjoy. But I was really not enjoying leading this meetup group. Like, it felt a lot like work.
- [30:50]
Olga Kazan
Yeah.
- [30:51]
Dory Shafrir
And not, like, fun work, but, like, fun brain game or something. It was just like, I have to, like, organize. I have to make the reservation. I have to get there. Parking. Oh, my gosh. Like, I have to think of questions like. Like, it was just like this, like, homework assignment every time. And I was like, I'm not enjoying this. Like, this isn't bringing me closer to extraversion. Because after this, I am. Like, this was draining.
- [31:14]
Elise Hu
And what did you ultimately find? Can we change our personalities? Did you change your personality? And in what ways do you feel like your project then led you to any sort of lasting change? As the subtitle of the book includes?
- [31:30]
Dory Shafrir
Yes. Yeah. So I think we can change our personalities. In particular, I really changed a lot on extroversion, and I. I changed, like, a fair amount on neuroticism, but my anxiety level was still pretty high at the end. And agreeableness, it went up a little bit as well. But one caveat that I have with all of these is that it requires kind of constant maintenance. Like, you have to be doing the activities that you did to get yourself there on a kind of an ongoing basis. So, you know, if you have a meditation practice, as I did, and when you stop meditating, as I also did because I have a baby, like, you're gonna. You know, the benefits of that might not last, you know, for months and months, Even as you're no longer meditating, you kind of have to keep up these behaviors. I would say the one that lasted the longest for me was also extroversion. And the one that I, like, took forward in time the most is probably extroversion in that now I feel like I'm approaching new motherhood in a completely different way than I would have before I did this project just because I saw the value of connecting with others and I saw how much it actually pays, quote, unquote, pays. Even if each individual little, like, play date or coffee or whatever you're doing isn't like, whoa, that was, you know, amazing. That was mind blowing.
- [33:01]
Elise Hu
But it sounds like you're building Community in a. In an area of your life where maybe you would have previously felt a little bit shy or uncomfortable doing. Is that right?
- [33:10]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm much more, I would say forward about, like, just texting someone I just met. Like, hey, let me know if you want to do a play date. Let me know if you want to get a beer. Let me know if you want to, you know, whatever we have time to do. And that. That just wasn't something I would do before.
- [33:27]
Elise Hu
This leads to a quick follow up, which is we just concluded. By the time this episode airs, we will have just concluded our month on friendship. So I'm curious what your experience has taught you about friendship and the nature of friendship, especially in adulthood when we have so many competing priorities.
- [33:45]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah, so I did, for one of the chapters, it was actually, it was kind of like a little bit extroversion, a little bit agreeableness. I did join Bumble bff. The friend making. Yeah, And I did make a friend. I made a friend on Bumble. Like, I am the success story of, like, we're actual legit friends now. Like, the book is done. We're still friends. It just taught me of like, like the value of that, of like, meeting new people in adulthood and being consistent about getting together. And also the value of just like, niceness in friendships, like, I think. So this friend I made on Bumble is very nice. And I in the past had sort of like, I think subconsciously avoided nice people because I. I like, didn't think that they were good friend material for me. And then I just kind of realized that, like, really you do in, in like, your late 30s, especially after you have kids. Like, you really need people who are, like, pro social in your life. Like, you don't necessarily need people who, like, know the hottest clubs or whatever. Like, you need people who are gonna show up with the casserole, you know, or whatever, which, like, this person did.
- [35:00]
Olga Kazan
How do you think, like, your approach to motherhood would have been different if. If you hadn't done this?
- [35:09]
Dory Shafrir
So I think two. Two things primarily would have been different. One is that I would have been so new. Motherhood is just very lonely. But I think it would have been even lonelier for me because, like, I joined a mom's group, you know, Like, I, you know, met up with them as much as possible. Like, I've just tried to reach out to, like, people in my neighborhood to meet up, you know, who have kids the same age. And that kind of stuff is, like, vital because, like, there's really A lot of times when you're just like, in your house with a one year old and, like, you're gonna dissociate, like, you're just like, you need that, like, social interaction with other adults, like. And I. I don't think that I would have been as proactive about that before. And then the other thing is just with motherhood comes a lot of new things to be anxious about, as you guys know. And I think I have a new kind of relationship with my anxiety. And it's not necessarily so. It's because of this meditation class that I took. And it's not because of the meditation itself, but some of the Buddhist teachings that we learned in the meditation class.
- [36:25]
Elise Hu
Yes. Say more about that.
- [36:26]
Dory Shafrir
So one thing that my meditation teacher would always say, this is going to sound so simplistic, but it honestly was, like, very profound to me. She would always say, like, things happen that we don't like. And I think part of my problem before was that I thought that I was personally responsible for having everything go right. That, like, if something went wrong, if traffic was way worse than expected, if, like, whatever, the source didn't call me back, or if whatever, the power went out, like, it was somehow my fault. Like, I think I had this kind of just this oldest child like, mentality that I was responsible for making everything go perfectly. And I think honestly, just having someone else who I saw as, like, very wise and experienced tell me and, you know, a group of other people that, like, everyone has things in their life that happen that they would rather not happen, and it's all about how you. How you react to those things and how you deal with them that. I don't know. That that was like, somehow very comforting to me. That it's just like. I know it's like happens is like literally at a 90s, like, t shirt, but it really, like, for some reason, it was. It was just very helpful to me to remember that.
- [37:44]
Elise Hu
Yeah. That notion.
- [37:46]
Olga Kazan
Isn't that what they say about people who kind of tend to get depressed is they. They do think everything is their fault and that, like. Like they have brought everything upon themselves and they kind of can't acknowledge that there are things outside of their control. And so being able to sort of like, have that mindset shift is probably really important.
- [38:07]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah. Again, it sounds really simple, but that was a huge shift for me.
- [38:11]
Elise Hu
Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. I had a friend say that the United States is not a psychologically safe place right now. Like, it's just this high stress time. You've written about how, who knows when we're going to be able to elect a woman, for example, for president, because, like, you need a job to get experience, and you need experience to get a job. It's like that conundrum. It's the same thing for being a woman president in this country anyway. And we're speaking to you at a really high stress time for the United States and this fracturing of our shared realities. So this is a little afield from your book, but I did want to talk to you about it because you are a science journalist and interested in human behavior and social behavior. So I'm just wondering, given on. Given your reporting on how we react to high stress climates and psychologically unsafe situations, just as humans and as humans in relation to one another, does your reporting or any research offer any guidance for coping in this period?
- [39:23]
Dory Shafrir
Yes. So, first, I just want to acknowledge that it is absolutely a very stressful time. I'm just gonna take off the objectivity hat and say, like, it is. Trump is incredibly stressful to so many people. Like, just everything he does, he does something every day. That is, everyone is like, what the hell just happened? What's going to happen now? I mean, and in particular, there's like, specific communities that he's targeting. You know, undocumented immigrants, other, you know, people in the federal government that, that have legitimate reason to be scared. And, like, I would say, like, first of all, just like, acknowledge that those feelings are valid. Like part of meditation and Buddhism and all the stuff that I researched is just letting you know negative feelings arise, if that's what. What comes up for you. Yeah. At the same time, there is some research. This is not in the book, but it's just stuff that I've researched in the past that kind of has helped me at various points that, like, when you're really anxious and there's like, a good reason for the anxiety, like, Trump is doing something that literally could affect you and your community. One thing to do is just, like, try to figure out what the anxiety is telling you to do and then do that. Like, use the anxiety to motivate you to, like, do whatever needs to be done and then kind of try to confine it to a specific period of time. So, like, some people call this, like, a worry period. It's really hard to do this, like, purposefully. But if you just like, you know, I learned this from Tracy Dennis Tiwari, whose son had, like, a heart condition. So what she would do is when she would get anxious about it. She would sit there and, like, be like, okay, I need to find the best pediatric heart specialist. You know, I need to research this condition. I need to email, like, these three people. And then she would kind of, like, put it to the side and be like, okay, those tasks are done. I have, like, pushed the anxiety ball forward, and I'm gonna like, try to proceed with, you know, a functional life right now. This is gonna be really hard depending on your circumstances. But, you know, for example, a federal worker, you could just research, like, okay, do I take this buyout or do I not? Like, do I? What are my options here? What Realistically, you know, how will this play out? Maybe you could talk to a lawyer. Maybe you could talk to someone who can give you more information about what you can actually do next, instead of just this ambient kind of, like, freaking out, which is tempting, but is less helpful.
- [42:09]
Elise Hu
Yes. And then for a citizen, like, for one of us who might not be directly affected right now, I think that we're all going to be and end up getting affected by public policy one way or the other. But I have felt some agency at least in, like, doing small things like calling my lawmakers, encouraging my friends who are represented by Republican lawmakers to call their lawmakers, making five calls, keeping that sustained, whatever it is, there is some, like, tangible task, and that makes everything seem a little bit less fatalistic. So make it maybe psychologically that helps too.
- [42:47]
Dory Shafrir
Oh, absolutely. And anxiety, like, you know, it is activating. Like, you're doing that because on some level you feel anxious. And, you know, it's maybe like, a good thing that you're being activated to do these things that are proactive instead of just sort of, you know, zoning out on the couch or, you know, not doing anything or, like, telling yourself it'll be fine. In that case, you're kind of, like, using your anxiety for good. So to the extent that people can, which I realize is not always possible, and I think is where a lot of this research, like, gets a little too glib. But to the extent that people can do that, I think that can be an effective way to deal with your anxiety right now, in particular.
- [43:27]
Elise Hu
Okay, okay. And then before we let you go, you tried all these different things. You tried your sailing club. You know, you talked to people who have tried a lot more like, you know, experiments. And ultimately, was there anything that you didn't get to try or something that you sort of left on the cutting room floor, if you will?
- [43:47]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah, I didn't do psychedelics. I didn't, like, really do a big dose of psychedelics, which is the. One of the main ways to increase your level of openness. They're. They're illegal, and I don't. I don't have, like, access to legal psychedelics. And I wasn't sure, frankly, like, whether that is kosher with a book to do illegal stuff. But that is, like, one of the ways that like, like all the studies show that people have this, like, huge burst of openness after they do psychedelics, and it. It actually does tend to stick around for at least like, a couple months. Yeah.
- [44:22]
Elise Hu
And Michael Pollan did a whole book on this. So listeners, if you're interested in that, there's always, you know, the Michael Pollan book.
- [44:28]
Dory Shafrir
And there's the Michael Pollan book. Yeah. If you know how to get them legally or whatever in a way that you feel comfortable with. But, yeah, I. I didn't do that. But that is the. Something that is very interesting. Yeah.
- [44:40]
Elise Hu
Very cool.
- [44:42]
Olga Kazan
Well, Olga, thank you so much for coming on and talking about your book and personalities. It was all, like, really interesting. Where can our listeners find you if they want to read your work?
- [44:56]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah, so I write@theatlantic.com you can just find me there with all the other writers. And I also have a substack. It's Olga hazonsubstack.com Great.
- [45:08]
Elise Hu
Olga Hazan, thank you so much.
- [45:10]
Olga Kazan
Thank you.
- [45:10]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [45:14]
Olga Kazan
I feel like I learned a lot from Olga, both talking to her and reading her book. I really enjoyed our conversation. And let's get into the intention zone, Elise.
- [45:28]
Elise Hu
We still don't have a sound I know for this, so I'm just gonna do it. Yeah.
- [45:33]
Olga Kazan
Okay.
- [45:35]
Elise Hu
All right. So for me, my intention last week was just to exercise again. I re upped, I re racked my intention, and I did it. And in fact, it makes me, if I feel like it's really helped with all of the extra, like, nervous energy because we're waking up in a fresh hell every day.
- [45:56]
Olga Kazan
Yeah.
- [45:56]
Elise Hu
And so actually, rigorous exercise or vigorous exercise has helped with that. I went running this morning. I'm playing some tennis. I'm taking, like, more difficulties, mega former classes just to be fully in my body for 45 to 50 minutes at a time. This week, we're gonna go with sleep hygiene. Sleep hygiene back on the docket.
- [46:24]
Olga Kazan
That's been a big theme, like, on this podcast for a very long time. So I'm, I'm glad to hear you, like, back on the sleep hygiene train.
- [46:35]
Elise Hu
And a lot of our guests talk about it too. You know, when we ask them about their self care, they're like sleep.
- [46:39]
Olga Kazan
Totally.
- [46:40]
Elise Hu
I care about my sleep. Leah Lippman was so funny. She's like I leave parties at 8:00.
- [46:44]
Olga Kazan
She, she is a boundary queen. Honestly, I was just like yes, I so respect that. I mean look, I like, I also feel this way. Like I think I was the first to leave your birthday party dinner.
- [47:02]
Elise Hu
You were like it's time.
- [47:03]
Olga Kazan
I was like Woohoo, it's 9:30, I better get out of here. Well, because also if like if you're out and I don't know if she feels this way too but like if you're out it takes a while to like wind down.
- [47:18]
Elise Hu
Yep. Like yep.
- [47:20]
Olga Kazan
I can't come home and like go straight to bed. Like I'm too, I'm still too sort of like amped up. Whether it's like being out at dinner or at tennis practice or whatever, it doesn't matter. So I feel like I need to like build in that, you know, that wind down time.
- [47:34]
Elise Hu
Wind down time. Time, yeah.
- [47:36]
Olga Kazan
Yes.
- [47:36]
Elise Hu
And journaling or writing your one line a day, all of that.
- [47:40]
Olga Kazan
And honestly, same for even when I'm home, like you know, these last couple nights I haven't left the house. But at like 9:56 I'm like okay, TikTok, like I gotta turn off the tv, I gotta like start my whole, you know, my bedtime routine. Because I also need to like take time in bed to do the crossword. Like I need to build in that time. It's a lot, Elise.
- [48:08]
Elise Hu
It is. Your, your nighttime routine has many checkboxes.
- [48:14]
Olga Kazan
It does. So all this to say I really, I respect your intention for this week. I'm rooting for you.
- [48:22]
Elise Hu
Thank you.
- [48:23]
Dory Shafrir
Yes.
- [48:24]
Elise Hu
It's really about earlier bedtime. So we'll see.
- [48:26]
Olga Kazan
Honestly. It is, it is. So last week my intention was to show up and I am happy to report that I did show up. I did go to my friend's surprise party. I was not the first to leave but I was. There was like another couple that came late and then left like 20 minutes later. Like it was like they were just doing like a, like a drive by. So I didn't leave the. I wasn't the first sleep but I was like probably the second to leave but I stayed till like I stayed till 9:30 again, which I feel like is like, you know, pretty good. So I did show up this week. My intention, you know, a lot of my like a lot of the ways that I kind of feel like I keep my mental health stable involves like going outside and taking advantage of the fact that we live in Southern California and it's gonna, it rained yesterday and it's gonna rain like all next week. So I need to like recalibrate and figure out some stuff I can do indoors that is going to bring me like similar calm, calm ease oxytocin. You know what I mean? So figure that out.
- [49:43]
Elise Hu
Okay.
- [49:44]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. Thank you. All right everyone, thanks so much for listening. Reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dory Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks everyone for listening.
- [50:00]
Elise Hu
Until next next time.
- [50:01]
Olga Kazan
Bye. Learning new things makes me just feel accomplished. And I don't know about you, but I like feeling proud of myself and my accomplishments, which is why I love taking new classes on Masterclass where I can learn from the best to become my best with honestly not a ton of effort. It's available on my phone. Lessons are around 10 minutes each and if I'm busy with my eyes or my hands, I can do the audio only lessons. When in history, has it ever been easier to learn something new than it is today? Speaking of history, there's a great class that has lessons on Black history, freedom and love from influential Black voices. You must listen or watch the lesson the Redeemer Constitution taught by constitutional law expert Kimberly Williams Crenshaw, the creator of the phrases intersectionality, critical Race theory and say Her Name. Yeah, it's full of thought provoking, eye opening history that is often brushed over if it's taught at all. Or watch Angela Davis, the Black Liberation movement icon, discuss the connection between Black women and blues music in a beautiful way that will change the way you listen to blues forever. The time to start your learning journey is now and you should do it with Masterclass right now. Forever 35 listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com Forever 35 that's 15% off@masterclass.com Forever 35 all right folks.
- [51:29]
Elise Hu
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Olga Kazan
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Elise Hu
Sounds good. Yeah.
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Olga Kazan
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Elise Hu
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Olga Kazan
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