Episode 345: Gossip From The Past with Nichole Hill

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 345: "Gossip From The Past with Nichole Hill"

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Nichole Hill
Release Date: March 24, 2025

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Introduction and Personal Updates

Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu begin the episode with personal updates about their families and daily lives. Doree shares her excitement about her in-laws visiting from Florida and her son's anticipation of attending his baseball games with them. Elise discusses her parents' upcoming month-long stay, emphasizing their support and her desire to explore more art and cultural sites in Los Angeles with her mother.

Introducing Nichole Hill

The hosts introduce Nichole Hill, an award-winning showrunner and audio producer known for creating impactful podcasts such as Our Ancestors Were Messy and The Secret Adventures of Black People. Nichole has also worked on notable projects like I Am America with Tracee Ellis Ross and PRX's Second Sunday, which was recognized by The Atlantic as one of the best podcasts of 2024. They express their excitement to delve into her work and insights on the show.

Nichole Hill’s Career Pivot

Nichole Hill recounts her career journey, transitioning from nonprofit work with AmeriCorps and education reform to the world of audio storytelling. Her passion for storytelling was ignited by listening to podcasts like This American Life during her nonprofit tenure. In 2019, she joined a live storytelling organization but had to pivot to podcasting during the pandemic after releasing her podcast The Secret Adventures of Black People. Nichole shares her surprise at the podcast’s unexpectedly large audience, highlighting the intimate and far-reaching nature of audio production.

“I had released the first episode of this podcast, the Secret Adventures of Black People. And that is kind of how I was then able to transition into podcasting.” ([10:46])

Exploring Historical Black Newspapers

The conversation shifts to Nichole's latest project, Our Ancestors Were Messy, which delves into the gossip pages of African American newspapers post-Civil War. Nichole explains the historical context, emphasizing how these newspapers served as vital communication tools for the newly freed black community, addressing everything from jobs and housing to personal relationships and community events.

“The papers are really doing that. And then people are like, well, also, I just need you to know that, like, my sister is...” ([20:00])

Nichole highlights the role of gossip and personal ads in these newspapers, portraying them as a "town square" where community members interacted, shared personal stories, and supported one another amidst the struggles of the Great Migration and systemic racism.

“It's a bit of a town square... sometimes just like, I love the Lord, he heard my cry. That service was so great, but the preacher was late.” ([21:08])

Themes and Insights from Our Ancestors Were Messy

Nichole delves into the recurring themes of identity, generational divides, and the tension between personal desires and societal responsibilities within the black community during the early 20th century. She discusses how individuals struggled to balance personal aspirations with the collective goal of combating Jim Crow laws.

“Everyone is experimenting with, like, what is a black identity gonna be in America now... How is my being a flapper? How could that contribute to beating Jim Crow?” ([22:57])

She notes the parallels between historical struggles and contemporary issues, emphasizing the timeless nature of these challenges and the community's resilience.

“One story that I thought was so heartbreaking. A dad writes into the paper, and he's like, I realize that because I'm the disciplinarian for my kids... What should I do?” ([32:10])

Community Impact and Historical Relevance

Elise Hu draws connections between the historical narratives Nichole uncovers and today’s societal challenges, highlighting the ongoing relevance of these stories. Nichole reflects on how the community-driven efforts documented in the newspapers mirror modern movements for social justice and personal fulfillment.

“In this time that we're in, where I feel like so many people are just feeling, like, very hopeless or much like we're just, like, so divided... They were consistent in their efforts, and they eventually succeeded.” ([36:32])

Personal Reflections and Family Influence

Nichole shares heartfelt reflections on her relationship with her father, Troy Hill, illustrating the profound influence he has had on her love for storytelling and her dedication to exploring black history.

“When I think of my dad, I think of the view of him from the passenger seat when we're riding around just listening to him tell stories.” ([38:56])

She discusses the balance between family, personal passions, and professional endeavors, emphasizing the importance of staying true to oneself while contributing to the greater community.

Connection to Los Angeles and Future Projects

Nichole touches upon her experiences in Los Angeles, mentioning her visit to the Paramount lot and her admiration for Altadena's rich black middle-class history. She expresses her commitment to uncovering and telling more stories from the Los Angeles Sentinel, the historic black newspaper of LA, and other local archives.

“I'm digging into all this LA history and trying to find, like, the right story that has, like, all the elements I look for at Altadena...” ([42:09])

Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode concludes with Nichole sharing her hopes for Our Ancestors Were Messy, aiming to foster a deeper connection to black identity and history through engaging and relatable storytelling. She encourages listeners to embrace both personal joys and collective struggles, drawing inspiration from past communities that successfully navigated immense challenges.

“They managed to beat Jim Crow, and they didn't do it by all deciding on this is the one way that we should go about it.” ([35:07])

Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu express their appreciation for Nichole's insights and storytelling prowess, inviting listeners to explore her podcast and continue the conversation around black history and community resilience.

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Notable Quotes:

• "I love this thing so much. I gotta at least try." — Nicole Hill ([13:46])

• "It's a bit of a town square... sometimes just like, I love the Lord, he heard my cry." — Nicole Hill ([21:08])

• "Everyone is experimenting with, like, what is a black identity gonna be in America now." — Nicole Hill ([22:57])

• "They managed to beat Jim Crow, and they didn't do it by all deciding on this is the one way that we should go about it." — Nicole Hill ([35:07])

Additional Information

Listeners interested in Nichole Hill's work can find her podcast, Our Ancestors Were Messy, and connect with her on Instagram at @OurAncestorsWereMessy and @Nicole. More details about the podcast are available at ourancestorsweremessy.com.

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and personal reflections shared during the episode, providing a coherent overview for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Nicole Hill]

When you're a forward thinker, the only thing you're afraid of is business as usual. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people and money today so you can transform tomorrow. Workday moving business forever forward.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, a lot of people hear LA or Los Angeles and think only of the celebrities here and the movies that are made here. But the there's so much more to love about the city I call home now. From walk up windows and rooftop bars to year round al fresco dining, Los Angeles is a culinary thrill ride sure to leave visitors hungry for more tacos or sushi. Brazilian or Korean food from anywhere in the world can be found right here in la. And when you're done eating, there's shopping or there's hikes all around la. Or just get a taste for fame firsthand by attending a star ceremony on Hollywood Boulevard. Catch a glimpse behind the scenes at a world famous studio tour. Need a breather? Don't forget to stop in your tracks and look up. Soak in our legendary blue sky. That's the light that inspires directors around the world. We love LA. Find more ways to love [e-mail] hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we are just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. Happy Monday to everyone.

[Dory Shafrier]

Happy Monday Elise. How's it going?

[Elise Hu]

I am still in like drunk on the vibes of the LA Marathon. I'm feeling really great actually. This morning I went running and I usually kind of whine the whole time because I don't actually enjoy exercising and one of the things that gets me through it is just complaining about exercising. But today, today I was with my friend Amanda, who I run with every Thursday morning and I was like, you know what? I was alongside those kids. 3000 plus LA middle and high school kids ran the LA Marathon and I was alongside them because we're following one of them for my ongoing Post Fire documentary project. But also I was doing an NPR piece on him and I just felt so inspired. I felt so inspired by that, that this morning was one of the first mornings I went running and I was like, we can do it, we can finish. You know, granted this is like a 25 minute 2 and a half mile run. It's not like it's not a marathon or anything close to a marathon. But even still I was just like, oh, those kids could do it. I'm Gonna do this.

[Dory Shafrier]

Amazing.

[Elise Hu]

How's it going over there?

[Dory Shafrier]

We are recording this the day before my in laws get to town. And when this is when this airs, they will have been here for, like, three days. So I'm excited for Henry to get to hang with his other grandparents.

[Elise Hu]

Where are they coming in town from? Remind me.

[Dory Shafrier]

From Florida.

[Elise Hu]

Florida. Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, so we'll see. I think it'll. I think it'll be nice. They haven't been here in a while, so they haven't seen Henry in. In real life in. In years, so.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I think it'll be good.

[Elise Hu]

So are they staying with you? Are they in town for, like, a specific reason? Ex. Besides hanging with your family, is it just to visit you and your family?

[Dory Shafrier]

Just to visit? Yeah, I think it was just like.

[Elise Hu]

It'S been a while.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, it's been a while. It's a convenient time. Yeah. That's kind of everything that's. That's going on here. We're sort of like, frantically trying to get the house in order right now.

[Elise Hu]

Do you have anything exciting planned? Like, are you going to take them to any particular restaurants or.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, what I. What I am excited about is that they will be able to go to one of Henry's baseball games.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yay.

[Dory Shafrier]

And he is, like, really excited for them to come to one of his baseball games. Yeah. We, like, asked him what he wanted to do with them while they were here, and he was like, I want them to come to my baseball game. And then he wanted to play. There's this, like. There's this card game, this Disney card game called I Found It E Y E. And it's like, you have to. It's. It's all these cards with, like, scenes, and you have to find specific objects, like, on the card. So it'll be like, cool. Find a dog collar. Find a rope. Find it. Like, whatever. And he's like, I want to play. I found it with.

[Elise Hu]

That's so cool. Great.

[Dory Shafrier]

Great plan. Okay. You know what I mean?

[Elise Hu]

Like, sure.

[Dory Shafrier]

He also said to me the other day in the car, mama, just out of the blue, he goes, mama, remember when we got those really good sandwiches at Sprouts?

[Elise Hu]

Oh, Sprouts. I don't know about this.

[Dory Shafrier]

Sprouts is a grocery store. It is like a. It's like a cross between Trader Joe's and Whole Foods. For people who are not familiar, it's like, cheaper than Whole Foods. We didn't have it on the east coast, so this was a new thing for me when I moved to California, so. So that's why I'm just sort of explaining it. But like, those sandwiches that you get at their deli counter are like $6. Like, they're not like fancy sandwiches. And we also got them six months ago. Like, we got them a long time ago. And he just like brought them up out of the blue. So it was between that and the like, desire to play. I found it with his grandparents. I was like, oh yeah. Like, I don't need to like, go crazy.

[Elise Hu]

No, he's happy with a six dollar.

[Dory Shafrier]

Sandwich from Sprouts that has turkey, cheese and mayo on it and playing a card game with his grandparents. Like, I, I don't need to like make this a huge thing. You know what I mean?

[Elise Hu]

But clearly those sandwiches made an impression.

[Dory Shafrier]

He was like, mama. And remember, they had never made your sandwich before because it was like before Thanksgiving and they had some like, like Thanksgiving special Thanksgiving sandwich.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Like on a, on a poster board or whatever. And I was like, oh, that looks good. And they're like, the two people behind the counter were like, like, wait, what goes in. What goes in that sand?

[Elise Hu]

They figured it out.

[D]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Really made an impression. So clearly. Yeah, just, just. It was just a reminder to me that I don't need to like, like, I think I tend to sort of like, try to over complicate things and be like, you know, every day we need to take them to like the Santa Monica Pier and then go to the Natural History Museum and then we'll go to Disneyland, you know, just like a million different things. And I was like, okay, I can just like take it down a notch. Like, it's fine. So I'm so, I'm excited and I think he's going to, he's going to have fun, I think, I think we'll, we'll all have fun. So that's what's going on with me. I'll report back.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, Yeah. I have my parents coming in for a whole month starting, I guess in about a week or so. And this is their time in the States where I like them to be here around this time. And then really I like them to be here in May because that's when there's so many of the sports games and the company show and the choir show and the, you know, like musicals and all those things. And my mom is a great photographer and so she can capture those better than I can. But also it's just so helpful to have more bodies during that period. Yeah. But I don't. Every time I Ask my mom, like, hey. And she was an artist, like a fine artist. And so there's great museums in la. And so I'm always like, let's go, you know, let's go check some stuff out. And she's like, so she doesn't really care about doing touristy stuff because this is kind of one of their homes, so. But I would like to. I feel like there's a lot of stuff that I would love to see. I haven't been to LACMA in a while. And I also really like that one museum that's near ucla, the Hammer Museum, because I think it's like, more manageable because it's small. So I love going to see art with my mom. I'm just saying that, like, my parents are less interested in having much of a calendar. They just. They're here to hang with the kids and like.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, totally. So totally. That's kind of where I'm at too.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, well, Elise, should we introduce our guest?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Because speaking of family and ancestors, today we have on just a delightful podcaster and talent named Nicole Hill. If you don't know Nicole, you soon will and you're going to love her. She's an award winning showrunner, audio producer and the creator of the independent podcasts Our Ancestors were messy, a 2024 official Tribeca audio selection, and the Secret Adventures of Black People. Her other work includes showrunning for I Am America with Tracee Ellis Ross, Tanya Mosley of Fresh Airs podcast. She has a name Vox's Land of the Giants Dating Games and the cube and PRX's second Sunday, which was named one of the Atlantic's best podcasts of 2024. Nicole knows audio. She is an amazing storyteller. She lives in Los Angeles like us and we are so excited to share this conversation with you.

[Dory Shafrier]

She was so cool. And before we get to Nicole, just want to remind everyone you can Visit our website forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention here on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35 podcast on our Patreon, which is at patreon.com Forever35. We have tons of bonus content. We have a subscriber chat. We have like a lot going on over there, so check that out. Our favorite products are at shopmy us/forever35. We have our newsletter at february35podcast.com newsletter and if you would like to reach us, call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and here is Nicole. Nicole, welcome to Forever35. We are so happy to have you on the show.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yay. Well, as you know, we like to start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So is there something that you're doing right now that you would consider self care?

[Nicole Hill]

You know, I usually, I will say I go for walks. I'm a big walker, big believer in, like a. A nice long walk. But honestly, right now, a thing that I do that I always do when I'm kind of feeling, like, stressed and anxious about the state of things, is that I watch old episodes of General Hospital, specifically 2002-2003. It's my favorite storylines. Jason and Courtney, Sunny and Carly. Like, we got a lot of, like, really great super couples going. So I just get in bed, just hit play on an old episode, and just like, imagine, like, nothing. I don't have to worry about anything until my mom gets home.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, my gosh. So you are now an audio maestro. But we did our research and learned that really just a few years ago, you were in a totally different field in what you thought was kind of a dream job for you and then lost that job and pivoted into audio. So we want to hear about your pivot and how you wound up here.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Research. All right. Yes. So I. Prior to audio, I would say, like, my career started doing, like, nonprofit work. I was in a program called AmeriCorps. So I got to travel all over the country, and every two months, I lived in a different community. I did a different service project for two years. So I was like, not only was it amazing, I was just inundated with stories. And I loved it so much. And then I started working in education reform for various nonprofits. And I was like, this is great work, but also, I need stories. You all tell me your life story right now. And all my coworkers were like, this is a lot. And so they introduced me to this American life. And they were like, listen to this. Go sit down. Leave us alone. We were trying to work, and I just started. I mean, that's how I found podcasts back in 2010 and just inhaled them. I loved them so much. I loved, like, the craft of it. I love hearing all these different lives all the time. It just scratched that itch for me. And so I love, love, love audio. But it was like, this is a side thing, so I'm gonna focus on Education reform and being like a serious person. And then it just got to the point where I was like, I love this thing so much. I gotta at least try. So in 2019, I found work for a storytelling organization, and we put on live stories. And I was like, I can't even believe how lucky I am. This is like, I. Who gets to live a life like this? And then the pandemic hit, and working for a live storytelling organization was, like, the worst place you could be. And so it just so happened, though, that I had also on the side, been working on a podcast of my own that I told everybody who was on it. I promise you, only 50 people will ever hear this. I've researched it. People like, it's very hard to break through in podcasting. No one will ever hear it. So on the day I got laid off, I had. It just so happened that I had released the first episode of this podcast, the Secret Adventures of Black People. And that is kind of how I was then able to transition into podcasting.

[Elise Hu]

And spoiler alert. More than 50 people heard it. A lot more than 50 people.

[Nicole Hill]

It was still so shocking, though. I was like, you guys, I. I don't know what this is. My mom's like, why am I. Why do all these people know my business? I'm like, I'm so sorry, Mom. I didn't think they'd listen.

[Elise Hu]

There is something so intimate about being an audio producer or podcaster in that you're really talking to no one. And, you know, you're just talking to a mic, and so it makes you feel like you can share a lot.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And you're unencumbered. And so it was always sort of shocking to me. I mean, to this day, even as a longtime broadcaster, it's. Even. It's shocking to me that anybody hears anything that I'm sinking into the mic.

[Nicole Hill]

100%. Yes. I'm constantly like, whoops, how do you know that? Yeah. Like, you literally made a whole show. I'm like, oh. And you heard.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's very relatable. Just like, I often forget what I say, of course.

[Nicole Hill]

And you all are putting out so many episodes. So I'm sure it's just like, I'm just getting on the mic and, like, chatting with my homie. And then people are like, in episode 421.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And you're like, oh, yeah, I should.

[Nicole Hill]

Really rein it in. I'm just saying, whatever. I totally get.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[D]

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[Nicole Hill]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

So your latest project is a podcast called Our Ancestors Were Messy, featuring not the news headlines but the gossip pages of black newspapers. Post Civil War set it up for us because there were lots of black newspapers that really cropped up after the Civil War. Like hundreds and hundreds, right?

[Nicole Hill]

Mm mm. So even before the Civil War, there was like, we need black people were like, we need to be able to communicate with one another. There was a community of free black people. And they were like, let's start a newspaper. And so they're, you know, talking about the news, they're talking about what's going on. They're especially sharing what's happening in the world minus all the racism and with black people in it. So that's like how the papers are going. But then after the Civil War, all of these black people now are all free. 3.9 million people are free. And so they need a new way to communicate with one another, like jobs and like, what is it like over here? And where can you find housing and where can you send your kids to school? All of this is important. So the papers are really doing that. And then people are like, well, also, I just need you to know that, like, my sister is. I think she's seeing this married man. And, like, what should I do about it? And so now we've got advice columns because we've got communities of black people who are, like, asking these questions. We've got singles ads and, like, the personals where people are like, I'm looking for love. I hope he's tall. We've got arts and entertainment section where people are reviewing the movies and books and things. And we've got just, like, gossip in between. All of that is just gossip. The ways that the papers are written, it's really funny. And sometimes it is just like, I love the Lord, he heard my cry. That service was so great, but the preacher was late.

[Dory Shafrier]

I don't know if you ever noticed.

[Nicole Hill]

But he's always late. We should really do something about this at the, like, AMC Baptist Church. And if you're with me, I'll see you at the luncheon. Like, it's. It's very sly, and it's written like that. And when I found them, I was like, this is delicious.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's. So who is editing these papers?

[Nicole Hill]

So there were. Their editors are all kind of become these, like, heroes of black history. So, you know, the most popular paper was written by a man named Robert Singstack Habit. And he is. Was just like, it's not that they have a background in journalism at all. It's that they are very ambitious men and women who have, like, some kind of, like, idea or philosophy for the community that they think everybody should know. And so they take over a paper because it is an avenue into prominence, into prestige, into power, into influence. So you get a paper, you take it over, and you just become the editor and you hire. There are. I mean, every. Like, Langston Hughes, Zora Neale Hurston, Debbie B. Dubois. All of these people were reporters in addition to all the other things that they were. Ida B. Wells was an editor herself of a paper in Chicago. And so all of these people become the editors and just hire everyone to write in. But citizens are writing in quite a bit and sharing their. The citizen gossip is like, it's a very thriving economy in these papers, and.

[Elise Hu]

You use individual stories as jumping off points for entire episodes. But I'm guessing you're having to kind of go through everything, and there's a lot that's kind of left on the cutting room floor. So I'm curious, what has really stood out to you? Are there certain themes in all of the tea that have stood out to you or stories that you would have liked to get to that for one reason or another, you didn't get to?

[Nicole Hill]

Well, the themes that stand out to me a lot are everybody is experimenting with, like, what is it gonna. What is a black identity gonna be in America now? It's just. It's. Everything is so new. And when they asked their parents and their grandparents, they were enslaved, and so there's just this, like, generation. Their generational divide that is so stark. And even when they. In between the generations after that, it's sort of like, okay, well, you're the first generation to be born free, but I'm the second, so I have a totally different idea about what's possible. And so everybody within this is. I. What other way I read it is like, a lot of experimentation with identity. And then, I mean, the question everyone is exploring within that is like, I want to be a flapper, and also, I want to beat Jim Crow. So how is my being a flapper? How could that contribute to beating Jim Crow? This is the big question on everybody's mind is like, can it be defeated? How can I defeat it? And the tension between, I want to go live my life, but I know I'm supposed to be focused on beating Jim Crow. And that was why it felt, like, so relevant to when I first found them in 2020, and then, of course, to today, because it's like, you know, you want to live your life. You want to go do something frivolous or adventurous or romantic. And also, there are these, like, larger forces at play in the world at all times, where you're just like, I have to contribute to the fight.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it's so relevant because we're living in this time where the next disaster feels right around the corner. And yet our concerns are still about, like, our daily joy and whether we can find pleasure and take care of ourselves.

[Nicole Hill]

You know, especially, I love the 30s. It's a time I'm really, really interested in. And everyone's writing, and they're saying, this is the worst it's ever been or will ever be. Nobody will live through anything worse than what we're going through right now. And in addition to Jim Crow, we've got a depression. We've got world wars. Everything is so bad. Everybody's coming up with all these philosophies for, like, how do. How could we make things better? But they're also just like, ah, I really want to sleep with my assistant's wife. What am I going to do? It's just, you know, the tension between the two is just endlessly fascinating to me.

[Dory Shafrier]

Are people, like, responding in the papers? Like, is there sort of like an ongoing conversation happening in these papers?

[Nicole Hill]

Absolutely, yes. And so the way that it's working, it's like it's a bit of a town square. And yeah, the papers, a lot of them start in the north and they'll say, they'll refer to the black community as like a household or like, they just have these names for, like, we are all a part of the same struggle, even though everybody is very individualized within it. And then they will send the papers down South a lot of times in a clandestine way because the south did not appreciate how the papers were fueling the Great Migration and attracting so many people out of the South. And so in them, it's like a lot of people up north saying, if you are in Georgia, you should move to Chicago. The Chicago Defender, most famously, it's like, credited as being one of the number one engines of the Great Migration. So it's like, you should move to Chicago. You will find housing this way and a bunch of lists of mutual aid societies. These are the hospitals you can go to. These are the jobs you can apply for. Here are one way. Here's how much a one way train ticket costs. Here's a schedule you should come. And then people will write like, I love it in Chicago. It's so great. And then people will write in with their questions and people are talking back and forth in this way and then influencing one another to make these, like, gigantic life changes. But they're very much a town square. And it's very much like a conversation between sometimes just the editor and the public. But a lot of times the public is writing in.

[Dory Shafrier]

You're. You're writing like a. You're writing like a PhD thesis. Like, this is unbelievable.

[Nicole Hill]

I never think about it this way. I'm just like, you know. Yes, well, the gossip is definitely a Trojan horse, but, yeah, no, I mean.

[Dory Shafrier]

I went to grad school for history. Like, this is fully. This is fully what someone would, like, write their dissertation on and examining, like, just how it created black culture and black community. If you so chose, you could, you know, turn this.

[Elise Hu]

If you're not having enough fun yet, you could always write a PhD dissertation.

[Dory Shafrier]

You could always write a PhD dissertation.

[Nicole Hill]

Maybe I'll just like, do that after this. Whatever.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I mean, I know you've pivoted already. Career Wise. So why not just, you know, just add this on?

[Nicole Hill]

You've really done a lot of the work. It's true. I've done a lot of research. I'm happy that it's fascinating though, because it's like, like, literally when I. I was. There was a time where I was pitching this around, hoping to like get distribution or funding or whatever. And it's like archival. I did not have my pitch together, but in the very beginning, and so it would be like these archival newspapers from the pre civil rights era. And everybody's like, what are you talking about?

[Elise Hu]

No, no, no. Yeah. You just gotta be like, this is normal gossip.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elise Hu]

From 100 years ago.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Featuring elite black people.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's the kind of history that I feel like doesn't get told that much. And you've really hit on something. Yeah, you've really hit on something so important and so fascinating that was so crucial to this community. So I don't know, I think it's really cool.

[Nicole Hill]

Thank you. Thank you very much. That means a lot to hear. It's good to. I've been working on it for so long that, you know, like along the way I'll just be like tinkering, tinkering, tinkering. And then I step back and I'm like, is this a Frankenstein? What have I created? What even is that?

[Elise Hu]

No, it sounds so good though too. So for those of y'all audio nerds out there, and if you haven't heard the show yet, Nicole makes these episodes that sound sort of like old timey radio too. There's like kind of an announcer voice and it's excellent scoring and you're just like instantly in it and it feels really vibrant and alive. So be sure to check out the podcast. I remember at the outset of this interview you mentioning also the personal ads in these African American newspapers. So I want to get to that. What did you learn about what it was like to date as a black person back in, you know, the early 20th century, whenever these personal ads started, I'm so curious.

[Nicole Hill]

People are having a bad time. It's not fun. And online dating, which is like essentially what the newspapers are.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Nicole Hill]

People will write in. So the way that it works is that a person, let's say it's the Washington Afro American, which is like one of the most popular newspapers in the country at that time. They had like 19 different offshoots in Philly and New York. So they have an editor named Albertine Ash that is an anonymous person, but is actually a woman. I thought for years, this was a man. But then I learned recently that this is a woman. And people would write into Albertine and they'd be like, I'm looking for a single man that is tall, that likes a girl who likes to dance, who is single, who is like. And also he is single, and he doesn't have a wife, and he doesn't have anybody that thinks that she's his wife. And he's alone and unmarried. And.

[Dory Shafrier]

And did I mention sing? This is like the. This is like the, you know, early late 19th century, early 20th century version of that. Are you dating the same. Are we dating the same guy?

[Nicole Hill]

Yes. Facebook group.

[Dory Shafrier]

Which is. Which sort of, like, leads me to my question, which is like, obviously these were in a very different era. People were very different. The world was very different. But there does seem to be these, like, commonalities where, like, people are people.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, and so I'm wondering, like, what. What of what. What of that kind of stuff have you sort of uncovered where you're like, oh, my God, like, this. This could basically be something that someone's writing today.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes. You know what? At the end of a lot of my episodes, I say something to the equivalent of, this is a line from Battlestar Gal. All this has happened before, and this will all happen again. It is so similar to today because essentially, it's like, I mean, one, the tension that I spoke to before of I want to do something to beat Jim Crow, to contribute to the conditions of the people that I love and the people that are like me. And also, I just want to go out here and be so reckless that it makes no sense. And then people trying to navigate between those two things, people trying to balance their dreams and their family. There's like, oh, one story that I thought was so heartbreaking. A dad writes into the paper, and he's like, I realize that because I'm the disciplinarian for my kids and I show up as, like, strong and tough, that when my kids are happy or scared or excited, they run to my wife, their mother, and they don't come to me and what should I do? And at that time, the papers are giving them this advice of, like, your kids will eventually appreciate your strength. A man is strong. And now, of course, we know that is not the advice you want to give. But people wrestle with their roles in society and how limiting and restricting they are and wanting to experiment and explore with being allowed to do more.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. What was some bad advice that was given?

[Nicole Hill]

I mean, anything that involves, like, a husband Being like, why is my wife doing it? This. All the advice is always just like, because she's a woman and, you know, she needs to knock it off. So, like, a lot of that, like, anything that has to do with that is always just like. Like, I just gloss over it. But sometimes there was one that was like, my wife really loves, like, spend a lot of money, and I love her so much, so, like, what should I do? And I think the advice was, like, pick a day where you let her spend a ton of money and then she'll be really happy and she won't want to spend any more money. And it was like, that is not how human beings work.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, dear.

[Nicole Hill]

I know this is 19, like, 22, but I'm going to tell you right now, now it's not gonna work.

[Elise Hu]

If you could only time travel and become, like, an advice column writer from 100 years ago.

[Nicole Hill]

I want to time travel and just be able to see these communities, you know, because all of these papers and all of my stories take place in segregated communities, which I imagined would have been very, like, sad and awful. But then I'm reading these papers and it's like, alrighty, guys, we're all gonna go to the beach on Saturday. Who wants to meet up with me? And we're all gonna, you know, go to the dance hall and we're all gonna go to the movies. And there's just so much life and vibrance and, you know, community, especially back then, that really fascinated me and captured my imagination and made me wanna tell these stories. And, you know, in a black historical story, oftentimes racism is the engine for the story. It's the thing that drives the action. And in my stories, it's gossip and something, you know, interpersonal like that. And that's not to say that racism isn in. Isn't present in any of the stories, but it's on the outskirts because the stories are taking place in a segregated community. So it's just black people with black people.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. What are you hoping that people take away from our ancestors were messy?

[Nicole Hill]

I hope that it gives people a sense of, like, a closeness to their identity. I often say, like, I felt a bit alienated from my identity when I learned about history prior to digging into all this research. Because it's like, they were so strong and they were so focused and they accomplished the unimaginable, which is that they beat Jim Crow. I love the housewives so much, and I have so much fun watching them and could lose so many hours. And it's Like, I should just be focused on, like, the fight. But reading these stories, it really was a reminder that, like, people are people, that people, you can do both. I was in education reform for as long as I was because I thought this is the way to contribute to the fight. This is important. And loving audio and stories and podcasting isn't important. So that's why it was always relegated to, this is just a little thing I do on the side.

[Elise Hu]

In your own hierarchy.

[Nicole Hill]

In my own hierarchy, yes. Because I was just like, who would. I'm not gonna run off and tell stories. That's ridiculous. Like, I need to contribute to, like, a serious part of this fight. And eventually it was like, this isn't true for me, though. If I continue on this path, I need to do what is true for me and understand that I can both love my community and want to give back and want to fight, you know, contribute to the fight. And I can just, like, love art and making it. And even if the stories aren't important or big, this show is example. But a lot of my stories on the secret adventures of black people are just like, I met this girl, and she was so interesting, and we had a conversation, and it took a long time to be like, that's okay. But I now believe that. And making this show has, like, made me believe it even more. And then in this time that we're in, where I feel like so many people are just feeling, like, very hopeless or much like we're just, like, so divided. We're so, like, what are we going to do? This community of people, they did. They managed to beat Jim Crow, and they didn't do it. By all deciding on this is the one way that we should go about it. There's so much disagreement. But everyone, wherever they were, got together with their community and tried everything they could think to do that they thought was right to beat this, like, terrible injustice that they were facing. They, like, tested the fences all along the way. They were not perfect. They did not agree. They did not give up all of their worldly pleasures to do it, but they were consistent in their efforts, and they eventually succeeded.

[Elise Hu]

That's such an important. Yeah, that's such an important takeaway. I really needed to hear that because I've been feeling like every day is a fresh hell.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And it's probably the worst time it's been since I've been alive, and so it's really just hard to even metabolize. But this is such a great reminder that there have been in awful times and progress has triumphed. Eventually. Eventually, we can all kind of do something.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. What. What happened to these papers?

[Nicole Hill]

So around the time that Brown vs. Board of Education passed and communities really started to integrate, a lot of people just kind of stopped reading them or stopped investing in them. They lost their ad revenue, and a lot of them went under because the community just looked so different. And so the way that they engage with the papers was totally different. And so most of them are. Most of them folded, but there are a few that are still in existence and in circulation today. And, you know, they. They survive through a lot of, like, charitable donations and then people, like, still subscribing to them.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I. I lived in Philly for a few years, and I feel like there was definitely a black newspaper in Philly that was still in existence at least 15 years ago.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah, there has to be one. I know of a Pittsburgh one. I don't know of a Philly one. But there's like, the Amsterdam News is like a very historic one in New York. And then the Afro American still going in Baltimore, Maryland. There's the Chicago defending the Philadelphia Tribune. That's what it's called. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And that one, I actually tell a story about the Philadelphia Tribune.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, it says it still going. It's the oldest continuously published African American newspaper in the United States.

[Elise Hu]

At this rate, it might last longer than the Washington Post. We'll see.

[Nicole Hill]

I mean, listen.

[Elise Hu]

I mean, my eyes are just. I'm doing my eye thing. Listeners who can't do it, we are going through it. Okay, let's take a break, and we will be right back. The other thing that we learned about you was that you're very close with your dad. And so I'd love for you to talk about what that relationship has meant to you, because we spend a lot of time on the show talking about our connections with one another. And we spent the last month on friendship. And after I learned you were close with your dad, I'd love for you just to kind of reflect a little bit on that and shout him out if you want to.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, my gosh, my dad, Troy Hill, shout out to you. He is. He lives in Virginia Beach. And, you know, he has always been a person who would. After school or just random times, he'd be like, everybody. All the kids in the car, he turns on some music, and he would just drive us around and tell us stories from his childhood, stories from his day. We listen to a lot of music, and he'd tell us stories about the music. It's all Oldies. He's just a. I just. When I think of my dad, I think of the view of him from the passenger seat when we're riding around just listening to him tell stories. And he's always been a person that has like, poured into me this love for everything that has to do with being black, anything that has to do with being adventurous and with exploring the planet. And he's been the biggest supporter of all the ways that I've traveled and experimented with my life. He's just like such a. I mean, like, I guess he's like a big guy, but he's just like a little baby teddy bear. I feel like all of us have him in the palm of our hands. Like all of us. K. But he's just like a lover of stories and has always been like that.

[Elise Hu]

How many siblings?

[Nicole Hill]

I have three.

[Elise Hu]

And where are you in the birth order?

[Nicole Hill]

So I am the second. So my. I have an older half sister who lived in Ohio, so in Virginia. Of the Virginia siblings, I'm the oldest and the queen.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Nicole Hill]

But then when Ohio comes down, then I'm second in command.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, you know, we're all here in Los Angeles and before we let you go, what would you say is the most sort of LA thing about you? Or is. Or is there like, what's the most LA thing that has happened to you?

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, the most LA thing. Well, I have worked with some celebrities. Oh, you know what? Recently I went to the Paramount lot, the back lot, and it looks exactly like Harlem. And it is. Yeah, they have Harlem streets.

[Elise Hu]

Right, right, right, yeah, set. Okay.

[Nicole Hill]

And I was like, this is. I'm so Hollywood right now, it's ridiculous. I was there for a client and I was like doing a podcast recording. And so I was just like, here's my badge, I need to get into the Paramount lot. And then I'm just sort of walking around this make believe New York and taking all these pictures and sending them to my friends. I say that that's like among the most LA things. I'm also wearing an Altadena sweatshirt. That's been la.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I feel like you should. So have you done any sort of deep dives on Altadena and any like, tea from Altadena and the Altadena community? Because I feel like, so folks who don't know listeners. Altadena was hit very hard by the Eaton fires in January. And then Altadena has really been the heart of the black middle class for a long time because it was one of the first communities in California that didn't have redlining policies that. That prohibited black home ownership. So I believe that. Isn't the black homeownership in Altadena like, twice the national average or something?

[Nicole Hill]

Yes, yes, that's what I read. I had known about that before the fires, and then I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, this is extraordinary.

[Elise Hu]

It feels like a great opportunity for someone like you who's, like, all about the stories and history and. Have you thought about an Altadena project?

[Nicole Hill]

Yes. So there's the Los Angeles Sentinel. Is the black paper of la or was the black paper of la? And so I was, because of my east coast bias, not reading that much about la. But now that I've been here, a lot of these stories I've been researching for the past couple years. So they were all east coast things and a couple of, like, Midwest things. But now I'm like, oh, la, here we go. So I'm like, digging into all this LA history and trying to find, like, the right story that has, like, all the elements I look for at Altadena, because I'm very committed to telling an Altadena story.

[Elise Hu]

Amazing. Okay, we all have that to look forward to. And Nicole Hill, it was such a fun and such a delight to talk with you. Thank you for just being so open and reflective with us. We learned so much. And thanks for all the tea too, that you're bringing to the airwaves.

[Dory Shafrier]

Nicole, where can our listeners find you?

[Nicole Hill]

Yes. Okay. So you can find everything about me and the show on Our Ancestors were messy dot com. I'm also on Instagram at Our Ancestors were Messy. And then on Instagram, I'm also Nicole with an A. You can find me there too.

[Elise Hu]

Our ancestors were messy.com was not a URL that was already taken when you went for it.

[Nicole Hill]

So, hey, it was. I was like, oh, sure. I was typing it in. So scared. Like, I'm sure somebody has taken this. And it was totally.

[Elise Hu]

You didn't have to get like, ca.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah, exactly. And then you can listen to Our Ancestors were Messy. Of course. It's everywhere. You get your. Your podcast.

[Elise Hu]

Fantastic.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thank you so much.

[Nicole Hill]

Thank you. This is so fun.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, I really, really love talking to Nicole and it also, like, scratched my academic history.

[Elise Hu]

You were really into that.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was like, okay, I'm listening.

[Elise Hu]

Like, let's step back.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, it was pretty. It was pretty good. So let's talk some intentions. Last week I talked about bulk items. The bulk item pickup. We took the crib and the mattress and an old car seat out and left it on the curb and it got picked up as promised. So I was very satisfying. And then I did make another bulk item pickup request for this week, and our old, our broken old vacuum cleaner is going to get picked up.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. It is very satisfying to put stuff out on the curb and then have the, you know, city services, city waste resources come and take care of that for you, so.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, exactly. Elise, did you get to go on some long walks with Oscar?

[Elise Hu]

I did try the sniff walks that you suggested last week. And, you know, he's such a puppy. It's super fun for him. But I do think that, like, he would just go on and on and possibly into, like, walking to neighborhoods and parts and like, major streets that I don't really want to be at. So I, I ended up. I end up letting him do it for like 25, 30 minutes and then at some point have to turn, turn back around. And generally at that point, we're not so far away that I'm lost because I was like, I hope I know my neighborhood well enough as we do this. But it's been super fun and I think he's having a good time with it and he needs the, he needs the stimulation because otherwise I'm just here podcasting all day.

[Dory Shafrier]

Sometimes Bo will want. Will be like, okay, now we're gonna cross this major street at like a non crosswalk. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's not happening. Sorry.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

What do you have going on this week?

[Elise Hu]

So what I intend for this week, I will follow on my theme of being inspired by the kids, the youths. And I am going to just try and go on some nice, long, slow runs and see how my knee holds up.

[Dory Shafrier]

Nice.

[Elise Hu]

It felt really good. It felt really good. And the weather's getting nice. It's balmy out. It finally stopped raining, so we'll try some longer runs. Okay, I'll call them jogs. Let's. Let's be realistic.

[Dory Shafrier]

Love it.

[Elise Hu]

What about you?

[Dory Shafrier]

I am just gonna focus on this visit with my in laws. So that's, you know, just kind of like making. Making sure it's a. It's a good visit for everybody.

[Elise Hu]

Yay. Yay.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, well, thanks everyone for listening. And Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dory Shafrier and Elise Hughes and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners, Acast. Thanks, everyone.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bye.

[Elise Hu]

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