Episode 347: Peaking When We're 90 with Debbie Millman

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 347: "Peaking When We're 90 with Debbie Millman" - Detailed Summary

Release Date: April 7, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Debbie Millman

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Introduction to Debbie Millman

In Episode 347, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu welcome renowned designer, author, educator, and podcast pioneer Debbie Millman. Recognized by Fast Company as one of the most creative people in business and by GD USA as one of the most influential designers today, Millman brings a wealth of experience from her illustrious career, including her long-running podcast, "Design Matters." This episode delves into Millman's latest endeavors, personal growth, and insights on self-care and creativity.

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Self-Care Practices

Millman emphasizes the importance of sleep as a cornerstone of her self-care routine.

"The biggest initiative that I have that would fall under self-care is sleeping. Roxanne, my wife, thinks that I'm an Olympic champion sleeper and I would consider myself a sleepaholic." [10:26]

She discusses balancing her physical health following a hip replacement surgery, highlighting how embracing new forms of exercise transformed her well-being.

"I have been now regularly working out two or three times a week for the last two years." [12:47]

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"A Love Letter to a Garden" - Millman's Newly Released Book

Millman introduces her eighth book, "A Love Letter to a Garden," co-authored with her partner Roxane Gay, featuring Gay's recipes. The book intertwines personal narratives with gardening experiences, reflecting on growth, both botanical and personal.

"The book is a bit of a journey through those failures to some modicum of success." [22:36]

Contrary to her initial reservations, Millman embraces the project as a testament to perseverance and joy found in nurturing life.

"It's time to stop putting all these obstacles in your own way to prevent you from worrying about looking foolish." [48:20]

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Embracing Growth and Learning New Skills

Millman shares her struggles and triumphs in gardening, illustrating broader themes of stepping out of one's comfort zone. She acknowledges the challenges of learning new skills later in life and the psychological barriers that often hinder personal growth.

"Learning to be a better gardener actually has helped me understand that humans don't ever approach things that they don't know how to do doing them well." [29:15]

Drawing inspiration from David Lee Roth's philosophy, Millman discusses the importance of continuous growth and striving to peak later in life rather than looking back with regret.

"It's time to stop putting all these obstacles in your own way... it's time to just start." [48:20]

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Impact of COVID on Students and Mental Health

Millman reflects on the profound effects of the COVID-19 pandemic on her students, noting a significant rise in mental health issues. She underscores the challenges educators face in supporting students navigating post-traumatic stress and anxiety.

"There are so many more mental health issues... I've had students with mental health issues in the last four of my graduate programs every year." [35:37]

She emphasizes the necessity for institutions to develop better support systems to address these escalating concerns.

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Reflections on Podcasting and Creative Practices

As the host of one of the longest-running podcasts, Millman provides valuable insights into the evolution of the podcasting landscape. She remarks on the increasing competition and the difficulties of sustaining a podcast financially in today's saturated market.

"It's become very competitive. I think it's become harder and harder to make a living doing it." [43:08]

Millman expresses gratitude towards dedicated listeners and fellow podcasters like Doree and Elise, who contribute meaningfully to the medium.

"You are both, like, the best... I'm contributing something meaningful, and I'll do it until I stop thinking that." [43:08]

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Personal Stories and Anecdotes

Millman shares personal anecdotes that illustrate her journey of self-discovery and continuous learning. She discusses her decision to start learning the piano in her 60s, inspired by a conversation with musician Jon Batiste about his mother's pursuit of music later in life.

"I don't want to be on my deathbed thinking I could have been a pianist. So, yeah, I'm looking into finding a teacher and starting piano lessons in my 60s." [45:24]

These stories serve as motivational examples of embracing new challenges irrespective of age, reinforcing the podcast's overarching theme of self-care and personal growth.

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Conclusion

Debbie Millman's appearance on Forever35 offers listeners a rich blend of personal insight, professional wisdom, and inspirational stories. Her discussions on self-care, embracing growth, and navigating the complexities of creative endeavors provide valuable takeaways for anyone seeking to enhance their well-being and pursue their passions wholeheartedly.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On the Importance of Sleep:

  "The biggest initiative that I have that would fall under self-care is sleeping." [10:26]

• On Overcoming Comfort Zones:

  "Learning to be a better gardener actually has helped me understand that humans don't ever approach things that they don't know how to do doing them well." [29:15]

• On Continuous Growth:

  "It's time to stop putting all these obstacles in your own way... it's time to just start." [48:20]

• On Mental Health Post-COVID:

  "There are so many more mental health issues... I've had students with mental health issues in the last four of my graduate programs every year." [35:37]

• On Podcasting Today:

  "It's become very competitive. I think it's become harder and harder to make a living doing it." [43:08]

• On Starting New Skills Later in Life:

  "I don't want to be on my deathbed thinking I could have been a pianist." [45:24]

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This episode of Forever35 not only highlights Debbie Millman's extensive career and personal endeavors but also offers profound reflections on aging, creativity, and the relentless pursuit of self-improvement. Her candid conversations serve as an inspiration for listeners to prioritize self-care, embrace learning, and continue striving for personal excellence throughout their lives.

Transcript

[Dory Shafrir]

When you're a forward thinker, the only thing you're afraid of is business as usual. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people and money today so you can transform tomorrow. Workday moving business forever forward.

[Elise Hu]

You know, a lot of people hear LA or Los Angeles and think only of the celebrities here and the movies that are made here. But the there's so much more to love about the city I call home now. From walk up windows and rooftop bars to year round al fresco dining, Los Angeles is a culinary thrill ride sure to leave visitors hungry for more tacos or sushi. Brazilian or Korean food from anywhere in the world can be found right here in la. And when you're done eating, there's shopping or there's hikes all around la. Or just get a taste for fame firsthand by attending a star ceremony on Hollywood Boulevard. Catch a glimpse behind the scenes at a world famous studio tour. Need a breather? Don't forget to stop in your tracks and look up. Soak in our legendary blue sky. That's the light that inspires directors around the world. We love LA. Find more ways to love [e-mail] hello and welcome. Welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrir.

[Dory Shafrir]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. Happy spring, Dory.

[Elise Hu]

Happy spring. How's it going?

[Dory Shafrir]

I am delighted that the weather is warmer and that my parents are in town. They are helping so much and my mom is an amazing cook.

[Elise Hu]

H. What a dream.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, they just landed last night at like 9pm, but she got up this morning and we have, as you know, we have these new baked goods from Wild Grain.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrir]

Which is one of our sponsors. And I got frozen croissants. And so she baked up those croissants. They're like, you know, frozen to you. Just bake from frozen. They're par. Baked.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes, yes. And so she baked those croissants and then made breakfast sandwiches like Fluffy Egg. She used my precious eggs, the fluffy egg and bacon and it was really yummy. And then, then immediately she's like, okay, what are we doing for lunch? What do you want to eat for lunch? So I'm just like happy because I'm being fed and I'm being mothered and that feels nice.

[Elise Hu]

You're also wearing great red lipstick.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, yes, thank you, thank you. Yes. I was having to do a. I don't know if you've heard. But all these podcasts are on YouTube now. And so I was a guest on a podcast and they were like, oh, by the way, you need to be ready because the whole episode is going to be on YouTube. And I was like, because I. I prefer to be in my workout clothes and my soft pants.

[Elise Hu]

I mean. Yeah, this is a whole thing for me. It's like, I didn't get into podcasting to also be, like, on video.

[Dory Shafrir]

Right? Yeah. It's like, why is everything about being camera ready? Because the whole joy of working in audio.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrir]

Was getting to have a face for radio.

[Elise Hu]

Exactly. So it's a little weird.

[Dory Shafrir]

We do the video clips. We have those.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, we have those. We do video clips with our guests on. On Instagram.

[Dory Shafrir]

You can check those out on Instagram.

[Elise Hu]

That's what we do.

[Dory Shafrir]

That is what we do. How about you? Are you feeling spring? Are you feeling the vibes of the seasonal change?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it's been nice to, like, be outside, and it's been really. It's not too hot yet, which is nice.

[Dory Shafrir]

And soon you're gonna get some plants soon.

[Elise Hu]

I'm getting some plants from one of our new advertisers, so we'll see how that goes. Yeah, I. I would love to, like, do some spring cleaning. We'll see if that actually happens. But it does make me want to sort of, like, refresh.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. Yeah. I used to move every three, four. Three to four years. And so moving was my spring cleaning because you get rid of so much stuff every time you move. And now I've been in LA for kind of a sustained amount of time, and I don't have this moving to help me coal, so who knows what's going on.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I used to move a lot more also. Like. Yeah, actually every. Every three or so years. Even. Sometimes even more frequently. Like, when I moved to la, I had been in my New York apartment for three years, and then I lived in an apartment in LA for like a year and a half, and then Matt and I moved into a house. But then we were in that house for like, five years, six years or something. And we've been in this house for, like, five years. So, yeah, maybe that's the answer. Maybe I need to move more.

[Dory Shafrir]

Move.

[Debbie Millman]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

I really relied on it because I was like, oh, it's time to move. What treasures I'm going to find that I need to get rid of.

[Elise Hu]

That's so true. I remember when I. When I left New York, I had a big, like, tag sale in my apartment. And got rid of so much stuff. It was great.

[Dory Shafrir]

It feels awesome. Yeah, I had, I have these great memories in Texas. When I was living in Texas in my 20s, I had a garage and so we could have yard sales or garage sales. And my. I was really close with a lot of the photographers, like the cameramen at the TV stations that I worked at. And so they would all come over and just like hang out on a Saturday morning and sit outside at the garage sale. And one of them like had this money making idea beyond selling things at a low, low price. He, he came up with this other money making idea in which he would grill hot dogs out front and just sell hot dogs wrapped in flour tortillas, very Texas, for like $1. And sometimes our, our, you know, poor man's hot dogs sold better than my stuff. So it became.

[Elise Hu]

That's so funny.

[Dory Shafrir]

A whole event.

[Elise Hu]

I don't know, like the Texas version of the hot dog. The sausage. People who sell sausages after like events in la.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. Street meats. Uh huh.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, totally. Maybe that's what we should all get into.

[Dory Shafrir]

You know what? We're having to hustle because the economy is tanking real fast.

[Elise Hu]

It is, it's tanking like as we speak. I feel numb. I feel numb to it. You know what I mean?

[Dory Shafrir]

It's so dumb. It's like the dumbest decisions that are then. But, but then I remembered that our president is a man who has once bankrupted a casino. Like, how do you lose money running a casino?

[Elise Hu]

It's true.

[Dory Shafrir]

So of course he was handed a great economy. And we are watching this happen.

[Elise Hu]

Well, before we get to our guests, I just want to remind everyone that our previous guest, Rachel Goodwin has all of her recommendations on our Shop My. So that is shop my us, slash, forever 35. And she has a bunch of like makeup recommendations, beauty tools, like just a lot of cool stuff on there. We're also doing a listener survey right now and you can find that link in our show notes. It is in the link in our Instagram bio. It is also on our website. So if you could take a few minutes and just fill that out, that would be super helpful for us. And again, Our website is forever35podcast.com there's also links to everything we mention on the show. Our Instagram is Forever35podcast. You can sign up for our newsletter at Forever35podcast.com Newsletter and we love to hear from you. Call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com. Our guest today is someone I've, like, admired and, you know, followed for years. And it was such a, such a delight to get to talk to her.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. We are so excited to share our conversation today with Debbie Millman. Debbie Millman has been named one of the most creative people in business by Fast Company and one of the most influential designers working today by GD usa. Millman is an illustrator, author, educator, and host of the podcast one of the OG podcasts, Design Matters. Broadcasting for 20 years, Design Matters is not only one of the first but longest running podcasts in the world. The show won a Cooper Hewitt National Design Award in 2011 and Apple has named it one of their all time favorites three times. Debbie is a prolific author, so I think this is her eighth book that she's talking about with us today. It's called A Love Letter to a Garden and it features recipes from her partner, Roxane Gay, also a prolific writer and thinker. And just a couple weeks ago, the two of them were announced as the new owners of the Rumpus, a website that our listeners probably know. So that's really exciting that they're going to be running the Rumpus. And Debbie, I just feel like, yeah, given the state of the world today and the kind of state of our psyches, it was a balm to talk with Debbie and just like hear her wisdom and hear her sense of hope for the world. And we're just so excited that you get to listen in.

[Elise Hu]

All right, here is Debbie. Debbie, welcome to Forever35. We are really happy to have you on the show.

[Debbie Millman]

Very, very, very happy to be here.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, we're wondering if there's anything you are currently doing that you would consider self care.

[Debbie Millman]

Well, I think the biggest initiative that I have that would fall under self care is sleeping. Roxanne, my wife, thinks that I'm an Olympic champion sleeper and I would consider myself a sleepaholic. I love sleeping. It is like one of my top three favorite things. And I try to sleep as much as I can. I don't get as much sleep as I want on the weekdays, but on the weekends, I do what my father termed pound the pillows. Like, I'm notorious in my family for being a sleeper. Like, everyone knows I'm a night owl. So it is something that if I were not a night owl, I don't know that people would be as aware of my sleeping habits because I would go to sleep early and then have like a long sleep that people wouldn't necessarily notice because it would just be A little bit after they wake up, but often, especially on the weekends, especially when I'm visiting people, like, I'll go like way close to noon.

[Dory Shafrir]

Wow. Wow, that's impressive.

[Debbie Millman]

I thought you would think so. And then I have other littler things that I do, but no less important. I had to have a hip replacement two years ago. And the primary reasons I had to have the replacement were genetic. Both my mother and my father have had hip replacements, but also, According to my doctor, 40 years of walking on concrete because I moved to Manhattan in 1983. And I'm a big walker. I walk a lot and I tend to walk most places. And so ultimately it caused a lot of bone on bone situations. I thought walking is too important to me. I really have to take the rehab seriously so that I could eventually go back to my walking practice. And I ended up finding a physical therapist that has transformed my life.

[Dory Shafrir]

Pt.

[Debbie Millman]

Yeah. So he does both PT and weight training and personal training. And I'd never ever done anything like that before. My sole form of exercise was walking and maybe pacing. And I, I love it when I crack myself up. Right. I always tell my students, if you laugh at my jokes, you'll get extra credit. But in any case, I. I just started to feel differently in my body for the first time in my life. And so I have been now regularly working out two or three times a week for the last two years.

[Dory Shafrir]

That's great.

[Elise Hu]

So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back.

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Dory Shafrir]

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[D]

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[Dory Shafrir]

Well, Debbie, since this show is about taking care of ourselves and you are a designer at heart, we'd love to know what you've learned in your visual arts practice or just from talking to the hundreds and hundreds of people you've spoken to for your podcast over the years about how best to take care of ourselves and one another during these really kind of dark and chilling times that we're in.

[Debbie Millman]

Yeah, I mean, this is just incomprehensible to me that we're living in a time that we're living in right now. You know, one of the other things that I do not necessarily for self care, but self entertainment, is read. I'm a big reader. And the fact that we're looking at our library associations being either defunded or closed. The Department of Education, I also teach for a living. All of these things are really, really disturbing. You know, one of the ways in which design has played a big part in my self care is being able to design environments for myself that are more like little cocoons for my psyche than anything else. I mean, I have spent a lot of my life working really, really, really hard and decided about 15 years ago that I would finally invest in creating a scenario around me, you know, a design scenario around me that really reflected my taste. The things that I had coveted for a very Long time, different pieces of furniture that I loved and never thought I'd have the opportunity to be able to acquire. I'm also a very big art collector and I've been collecting art since I had an extra 5 cents in my pocket. So that's really. Now, since I would say 1992, I've been collecting art. And so everything around me, I mean, not to sort of be cliched about it, but everything around me really does spark some joy and some real sense of first and foremost, some of the four fathers and mothers of art with text, obviously, Jenny Holzer, Barbara Kruger, Lawrence Weiner, Robert Berry, Joseph Kosuth, all people that use text primarily in their artwork. But then I also really spent a lot of time looking for art that was created by non text oriented artists, but also have been used. And so I have pieces by Richard Prince, Jean Michel Basquiat, Carolee Schneemann, Ida Appelbrug. I'm just trying to think off the top of my head. Marina Abramovich, Ed Ruscha. And most of these are prints. I don't want to give anybody the impression that I am an art impresario. Most of what I get is at auction or real finds that I discover on ebay. But this is something that's been a big, big part of my life for a very long time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Well, speaking of art with words, your new book, which I think is your. It's your eighth book, is that right?

[Debbie Millman]

It is. It is my eighth book.

[Dory Shafrir]

So prolific. It is called Love Letter to a Garden. We loved it so.

[Elise Hu]

We both loved it so much.

[Debbie Millman]

Oh, thank you. This means so much to me. I'm so afraid of what the reaction is going to be.

[Dory Shafrir]

No. So, listeners, it is written and illustrated beautifully and vibrantly by Debbie and features recipes from your wife, Roxane Gay. And it's ostensibly about your garden or gardening, but it's really about you and your life and your community and what it means to be alive. Tell us why you wanted to make this and share it.

[Debbie Millman]

Well, it wasn't something that I'd planned, actually. It was one of those little gifts from heaven that fall into your lap. And I was approached by an editor at Timber Press, which is the gardening imprint at Hachette. And they had seen two previous pieces that I had created with visual storytelling in this method of writing on images. And one was some work that I did for the TED Conference back during COVID when the TED Conference was completely online. And that year I had my wife and I decided to spend as much of COVID as we could on the west coast, where Roxanne has a house. And she had that house before we met and got married, and I had mine here in New York City. And so we've been living in both, going back and forth as often as we can. But during COVID we thought since we have a car there, since there's a lot more sky there, we could get out more. We would spend our time sequestering there. And I had a lot of time on my hands and started gardening and started doing visual stories on my Instagram feed about my experiences with this new garden in this new environment. And I was asked by my friends at TED to do three interstitials that would be shown in between the talks. And I did a visual story on traveling, which we obviously couldn't do. Visual story on storytelling and a visual story on gardening. And so this editor had seen that. And then she also saw a piece that I did for Afar magazine, which was a visual story that I created when Roxanne and I took an expedition to Antarctica in search of the total eclipse of the sun back in 2021, which we were unsuccessful in seeing because of cloud cover, but still had just a transformative time. And so she saw those two pieces and she reached out and asked if I'd be interested in writing a visual storybook, so to speak, about gardening. And I kind of fell off my chair when I read the email because I am by no means an expert gardener, and told her that and said if I was to write a book about gardening, gardeners would, like, laugh me off the planet because I'm not going to tell people how to rescue a dead plant. That's just never going to happen. If anything, I can show a collection of my dead plants. Gardening has always been, as an adult, it's always been some part of my life because I have been very lucky to have outdoor space in the three different apartments that I've lived in. But all of my efforts up until, like, the last couple of years have been dismal at best, like, really flat out failures. And so the book is a bit of a journey through those failures to some modicum of success. And when I say modicum, I mean being able to make a salad with things that I've grown myself.

[Elise Hu]

I mean, this might just be, like, a statement about my own lack of gardening skills, but I did not read this as, like, a book about all of your failures. I read this as, like, I was very impressed by all of the plants and flowers and food, fruit, vegetables that you had grown. So. Yeah, don't sell yourself short.

[Debbie Millman]

Well, you know, it's the book, the sort of stories about my own gardening attempts starts in the early 90s and I had an apartment, a really wonderful apartment in the West Village with a deck. And I decided I was going to do it up and bought lots of container plants. But it was a very shady deck with virtually no sun, maybe a little bit of dappled sun. And I went ahead and bought roses because I thought they were beautiful. And within a few weeks they all died because roses need sun. So that was, it was, it was a slow sort of journey to being able to actually keep something alive, let's put it that way.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Let's talk about how kind of as you get older, the idea of like taking, taking up something new becomes a little bit more intimidating. And you write about, you know, as, as you've gotten older, you've gotten less comfortable doing things you weren't good at. And I'm wondering, you know, we, we talk a lot about this too. I took up tennis in my 40s and I'm really not great at it, but I love it. And so I'm, you know, I'm just sort of wondering what value you have found in, in being just okay at things.

[Debbie Millman]

You know, it's funny that you asked me that question because now that I review that statement in the book, I realize I've never been comfortable doing things I don't know how to do. Like, it's not something that. Just a midlife thing, definitely. No, it's just more profound now. It's much more profound than it was. But I'm looking back at the sort of trajectory of my life and I've never been someone that was like, woo hoo, let's try something new. It's always been like, oh, that's new. How do I approach it? How do I do it? I need somebody to show me visually how it's done so I can mimic it. So I think it's just, as I've gotten older, it's become more profound. Much more of a, oh, I'm a middle aged woman. I don't want to look awkward, I don't want to look silly, I don't want to humiliate myself. And especially because I take so much pride in trying to do things well, the idea that I do something poorly or do something that humiliates me feels like it would bruise my ego too much. But in order to learn something new, you really have to put yourself in that position and I think learning to be a better gardener actually has helped me understand that humans don't ever approach things that they don't know how to do doing them well. You know, it's very few people that come out as prodigies, as musical prodigies or athletic prodigies. You know, we are born essentially not knowing how to really do anything right. We can't take care of ourselves.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. And they say that babies grow so fast because they're so willing to fail again and again, actually.

[Debbie Millman]

Absolutely. And then something happens, probably sometime in third or fourth grade, where we begin to sense the world around us in a different way, and suddenly we become afraid of judgment. That's when a lot of people actually stop drawing, even though we're really all born with some spark of creativity. But again, because we start comparing, because we start contrasting, we suddenly feel like we're not good enough. And, you know, it's so interesting. I teach undergrad and grad students, and the undergrads already, as seniors, are beginning to edit the possibilities of what they can and can't do because they feel like they might not be as good as some of their peers or they might not be as good as they want to be. And I'm like, you're never going to be younger or more beautiful. Go after what you want now, because the older you get, the harder it's going to be to pivot and make a big change. There's no reason for you not to go after what you want right at this minute. And I talk to them a lot about how we have to learn how to be good at everything. You know, we. They're all like, well, I'll do it when I have more confidence. I'm like, when do you think that's gonna be? Because unless you actually try it and do it and step into the courage it requires, you're never going to manifest confidence. Confidence comes after the successful repetition of any endeavor that you're initially really scared to do. And so I hope that that sort of gives them some sense that they can't wait for the confidence they have to try to muster up the courage to then step into that unknown thing. So, you know Cobbler in his shoes.

[Dory Shafrir]

Totally. Totally. And I love talking with you, Debbie, about growth and change. You and I first connected at the start of COVID and got to know each other in that conversation about career pivots. And that was really timely because so many of us did wind up pivoting in one way or the other during COVID something that you. That you Said that stuck with me. And I think I brought this up with you, like, at dinner a few years ago, too, was that you learned from David Lee Roth this whole idea of just wanting to peak when you're 90 and then die. And I just want you to know that I've completely adopted that kind of movie, and it's just an operating principle for me now that we can just, like, keep expanding, keep learning and keep growing until the point we can't.

[Debbie Millman]

Right. And that changed my life, too. I mean, that basically, for those that might not have heard it before, what I said to Elise was something that David said to me in sort of a pensive moment when I asked him what it felt like to be, like, one of the coolest dudes on the planet in 1984, when jump was the most popular single and the most popular video and 1984 was the most popular album and the most popular tour and so forth. Or among them. Among them. And he said, you have to be really careful when you get to the top of the mountain, the tippy top, there's only one direction to go. It's always cold. You're often alone. And it really. You know, I've been trying to run up that mountain my whole life. And I'll run up a bit, and then I'll get tired, and then I'll stop, and then I'll go backwards a bit. But it suddenly occurred to me, I don't want to peek and then have a good chunk of my life to look back and say, ah. That's when I did my best work. I don't want to do my best work till the day before I die. And, yeah, it just was profoundly impactful to me. And I think about it probably almost every day. And I share this with all my students. And they also, I think, are really moved by the notion that you can take slow steps up the mountain and not everybody's going to get there at the same time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, let's take a break, and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

You've brought up your students a few times. I feel like there's been a lot of conversation lately about kind of this generation of college students. As you know, their lives were disrupted during COVID and everything has not gone great for them. And I'm wondering how that manifests in the classroom and what you're sort of seeing these days among your students.

[Debbie Millman]

Well, part of the reason I teach is to stay connected to young people and to be aware of what they're thinking about what they're doing. I'm very fortunate that I teach at a school where I am face to face with some of the young, great talent that is going to make a difference. And for me to be able to see them in that sort of infancy and then watch as they grow and develop and create their own names for themselves and a body of work that's just outstanding. I mean, I just feel so much thrill at that opportunity. And, you know, Pablo Del can and Zipeng Zhu and Santiago Carrasquilla and Joe Hollier and the Latham twins. I mean, there's so many people that I've taught that I can look at and say, wow, wow, wow, wow. So those are the undergrads then, for the grads. You know, I run a graduate program in branding, and it's been 15 years. So some of the people we taught in year one or year two or year three are now running branding consultancies and are the people at the forefront of design and branding practices and pedagogy and trends and scholarship. And that, to me, is also really thrilling. However, since COVID I have to tell you, it has been really, really challenging. This is the first year that I'm teaching undergrads that haven't been impacted by Covid. And there is a difference. They're much more engaged, they're much more participatory.

[Elise Hu]

You mean their college years have not been impacted by Covid?

[Debbie Millman]

Yes, yes, got it. Yes. I'm sorry. Yeah, that was not clear. But I have to say, there are so many more mental health issues. So many more. I've had students with mental health issues in the last four of my graduate programs every year.

[Dory Shafrir]

This is actually part of my soapbox now, five years on from COVID that we went through this trauma together collectively, and we might be suffering from some sort of collective post traumatic stress, and then just haven't really reckoned with it, like.

[Debbie Millman]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

And that, you know, once the vaccines were pretty universal and restrictions were lifted, people just like went back outside, they got. They filled their calendars up and we return to that grind, that like, capitalistic way of life without properly reflecting.

[Debbie Millman]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Which leads me to my question, Debbie, because it's now been five years. I'm curious how you've metabolized and how you've been thinking about that period that we went through and are arguably still feeling the effects of.

[Debbie Millman]

Yeah, well, from a perspective of teaching, what I can say is I teach a one year graduate program. It's an accelerated program. And so 2020 started just like any other typical academic year in September of 2019, and I had a group of really, really exceptional students that year. You know, every now and then you get like, superstars. Like, everybody's a superstar. And that was that class. And then on March 15, we went online, you know, instantly. And I probably took the students online too quickly, but I was so afraid that they were gonna miss out on something, you know, I had to learn canvas and zoom and slack all at the same time. I'm not technologically oriented at all. I was spending afternoons projectile crying because I couldn't master any of it in the speed that I felt like I should talk about embracing change. But they didn't know. We all didn't know what was happening at that time. I remember saying, oh, we'll be back in person by thesis, which would be the summer. And I think those first six months, everybody was just trying to create some sense of normalcy or vibrancy that they could. And those students graduated and did a spectacular job despite that major pivot. But from there on, in 2021, the class of 21, 22, 23, 24, every single year, there's been significant mental health issues. And in now, class of 2025, there is already. And I have really had to rely on the different departments within the school to help me learn how to best work with students that need different resources that I have never really been exposed to. You know, I've been in therapy for a really long time, but I would never say that I'm qualified to be a therapist.

[Dory Shafrir]

Sure, sure.

[Debbie Millman]

I think I'd like to think I'm a good listener from 20 years of podcasting, but I'm not qualified to give mental health advice. And that's been hard to be in a situation where you're witnessing somebody else's trauma, somebody else's grief. It's hard not to be able to just hold out your hand and help them. And, you know, as for me personally, I remember at the end of COVID I was very, very lucky with COVID I didn't get Covid till after Covid, really. Back when we were out in the world, I had just gotten engaged. We were living together for the first time. Everybody was like, how you guys doing your first time living together? What's it like? And we were like, it's glorious. We're together every day. We're not traveling. We're not stressed out. We're having dinner every night together. We're cooking. And we watched 10 seasons of Columbo. I mean, we were the lucky ones that thought, we're gonna change Our lives after Covid, we're gonna not. And we did for maybe, like, three weeks. And then it was just back to the grind, the same old grind. And I wish we had learned more from that experience in being able to calibrate our energies in new ways and our schedules and our commitments and our obligations. And not saying yes so much, because we feel like if we don't say yes, we're never going to be able to say yes again. And things that we grapple with all the time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Well, you mentioned your fiance, who is now your wife, because you all eloped, so.

[Debbie Millman]

We did.

[Dory Shafrir]

And Roxanne actually has recipes that are part of the book. So I'm just curious, what was it like collaborating with your partner?

[Debbie Millman]

We were planning a big wedding. Roxanne's dad, she's the only daughter, and he was really looking forward to walking his daughter down the aisle. But that didn't happen. They saw our wedding, which was at, like, an Encino strip mall in California with a Russian clergy person, which was just really a civil service. We were standing under a plastic chuppah. Our families were watching via FaceTime. Back then, we were still wearing gloves. Remember, it was gloves and masks.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes, gloves.

[Debbie Millman]

So that was quite a glamorous look. And we had this little outdoor meal that we. A barbecue with some of our friends so we could be safely distanced from each other. And never had the big wedding. Which was fine. Which was absolutely fine. Cause I think we look back on it now with a lot of joy that we were able to do what we did when we did. But because I was doing so much gardening and because Roxanne was doing so much cooking. She's a wonderful cook. I am not. I make two dishes. She makes everything. She bakes, she cooks, she creates recipes. And so I was coming in with, you know, big giant colanders full of tomatoes and lemon cucumbers and lemons. And she was able to just make all of these strawberries, blueberries. It was so plentiful that year. And so she started making things with the things that I was growing mostly, so we didn't waste them. We weren't intending at that time to ever publish her recipes. It was just purely for the joy of it. And then it turned into something that we could share with the world.

[Dory Shafrir]

Love it. Love it.

[Debbie Millman]

My favorite recipe of hers is the strawberry tall cake. You know, she. She made a tall cake instead of a shortcake. And I just love it because the slices are that much bigger now.

[Elise Hu]

All the recipes looked so good and so fresh and so bountiful. And, you know, I was just like, oh, yes, sounds great. You also mentioned your podcast, and you were like one of the OG podcasters. I'm curious what you kind of make of the podcasting landscape today.

[Debbie Millman]

What do I make of the landscape? Well, there certainly are a lot to listen to. That's true. You know, when I started, I remember the first time I made the. What was then the itunes podcast chart. There was one chart for all the podcasts. And I was like, in the one month I was in the 50s, and one month I was in the 80s, but there were like a hundred podcasts. So, you know, it was all relative because there literally were very, very few podcasts at that time. I never, ever expected to still be doing this little show 20 years later. It's really been this extraordinary journey. It's become one of the centerpieces of my life. The conversations that I've had have been, I would like to think, are just beautiful and soulful. As far as the podcast scene, what do I think of the scene? I think it's become very competitive. I think it's become harder and harder to make a living doing it. I've always been very fortunate that it hasn't been my sole source of income, and I'm very glad about that. And I think it's just like anything else. You have great people doing it, like, amazing people doing it, like you guys. And I'm not blowing smoke up your skirts. You are both, like, the best. And then there are folks that are just doing it for the ability to do it, and that's fine, too. Everybody can do what they want to do and make what they want to make. I'd like to think that I'm contributing something meaningful, and I'll do it until I stop thinking that.

[Dory Shafrir]

No, you absolutely are. And I mean, the David Lee Roth idea alone continues to be transformative to me on a daily basis. So I guess that's the last question that I have for you, Debbie, which is, last time we talked for a podcast, there was that little gem. So I'm curious who else you've spoken to or what other little gems or nuggets of wisdom that you recall from your many conversations that you could share with us to just reflect on and think about.

[Debbie Millman]

Well, I think, believe it or not, I interviewed somebody on Saturday that said something to me that's making me reconsider my future. Believe it or not.

[Dory Shafrir]

Wow.

[Debbie Millman]

So there have been a couple of things in my life that I've regretted.

[Dory Shafrir]

Sure.

[Debbie Millman]

One is that I don't speak another language. And a year and a half ago, I was lamenting this fact with Roxanne and her family. It was Christmas time, and Roxanne's niece said, well, oh, you should try duolingo. That's how I'm learning Spanish. And I was like, what? What? Dua? What Dua Lipa. You know, I didn't know what she was talking about. And so then I tried it. And I've been doing. I've been learning French ever since. And Roxanne's whole family speaks fluent French. And so I wanted to know what they were talking about when I couldn't understand. And I'm beginning to learn. But the other thing that I have really regretted, and this is a big regret, is that I don't know how to play the piano and I don't know how to read music. So on Saturday, I interviewed Jon Batiste. Jon Batiste not only is an incredible musician and probably one of the greatest musicians working today, he comes from a musical legacy. His entire family. His uncles, his father, his grandfather. They are. The Batiste family in New Orleans is one of the great family legacies in music of all time. And so we were talking about his family. We were talking about his trajectory learning music, and he didn't actually learn how to read until he went to Juilliard, which was very surprising to me. But what really, really stopped me was his telling me that his mother is learning how to play the piano. His mother.

[Dory Shafrir]

Wow.

[Debbie Millman]

And his mother is probably my age. And if she can learn the piano surrounded by some of the world's greatest musicians and go through that learning curve of knowing how far she needs to be, to which I don't even think she's thinking about. You know, that's only something that I would be. Think about that. It's time to stop thinking that way, and it's time to just start, because I don't want to be on my deathbed thinking I could have been a pianist. So, yeah, I'm looking into finding a teacher and starting piano lessons in my 60s.

[Dory Shafrir]

You absolutely can be a pianist.

[Debbie Millman]

So I think anybody can start something whenever they want to. You just need to start and stop putting all these obstacles in your own way to prevent you from worrying about looking foolish. Like, let's look foolish. Just, let's all look foolish together.

[Elise Hu]

Totally. I took piano as a kid and then took it back up during COVID and took lessons again for, like, two or three years. And it was really, really, really fun. So I'm really excited that you're about to start on this journey.

[Debbie Millman]

Yeah. How are you? How do you play now? Like, do you feel like you can play a song?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I play. I mean, I always played classical music, so Playing pop. I tried playing pop music. My husband plays guitar, and he always. He never, like, understood that I needed sheet music in front of me to play something. He thought I should be able to just, like, sit down and, like, play. And I was like, no, no, no. But, yeah, I really. I stopped taking lessons partly because of the cost, and then also when I started playing the piano again, we had just gotten a digital piano with weighted keys, which are great and don't take up that much space. And I was just getting to the point where I was like, I kind of really just want a real piano. And so I don't know. In my mind it was like, well, if I can't have a real piano, there's no point in and continue. Which, of course, doesn't make any sense. But, like, I was getting a little frustrated with just having the digital piano. And then I was like, well, I'll just put this on hold until we can get a real piano. And then I just haven't gone back to it. That's my story.

[Debbie Millman]

So, yeah, I remember interviewing. I don't remember who it was. I think it was Nico Muhleigh, who didn't have a piano when he was growing up and learned how to play with a paper piano that he made.

[Elise Hu]

Wow, that's so cool. Wow, that's amazing. That's really cool.

[Debbie Millman]

There's always that option for me, too.

[Elise Hu]

Totally.

[Debbie Millman]

Lots of options here.

[Dory Shafrir]

And either you of you are invited to my home in LA at any time to play my piano because I often feel it's so neglected. I still have my piano from when I was 5, and it's like a rush. Yeah, it's moved around with me. It's a parlor ground.

[Debbie Millman]

Let's start a piano club so you.

[Dory Shafrir]

Can come over and play.

[Elise Hu]

All right.

[Dory Shafrir]

I always feel like it's more like, yes, anytime.

[Debbie Millman]

I just want to say that it's been so much fun. You guys are two of my heroes. Elise, you know this already. I've told you before. I just want to tell you how much I appreciate you doing this with me. I really. And for me, it means so much.

[Dory Shafrir]

Well, Debbie Millman, thank you so much. And just real quick, tell listeners how they can find you.

[Debbie Millman]

I can be found online pretty much everywhere at Debbie Millman, and my website is also debbiemillman.com.

[Dory Shafrir]

Okay, thanks so much.

[Debbie Millman]

Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

Well, Debbie was delightful.

[Dory Shafrir]

Just full of wisdom.

[Elise Hu]

Full of wisdom. She's such an interesting person. She's had such an interesting life. And, yeah, I was really glad we got to talk to her. Now we are in the intention zone. Elise, did you go on any longer jogs?

[Dory Shafrir]

I did. I did. I went. Yeah. I feel so good about it, too. Maybe that's why I feel better. I've just been touching grass. Maybe there is something to this. Thanks, Walt Whitman. Yeah. So I have been running outside and spending more time in nature, and it really has kind of helped center me, I think. So I'm glad that I suggested that as a. Or I made that an intention two weeks in a row, because the first week, I didn't exactly do so well. So the second week, and then this week, I have my parents here. They're not going to be here as long as they usually are. They're usually here for, like, a month, and this time they're only here for a couple weeks. So I just want to maximize my time with my mom and dad and their time with the kids. So I think my intention will just be, like, family time.

[Elise Hu]

That's awesome.

[Dory Shafrir]

What about you?

[Elise Hu]

Well, last week, you know, we were going to Big Bear to spend some time with one of Henry's friends at their family's cabin. And it was a. It was a great trip. Like, in the. In the beginning, Henry had, like, a minor meltdown, and we sort of, like, reset, and he was fine, and he had so much fun, and he was like, I want to come back for a week.

[Dory Shafrir]

I was like.

[Elise Hu]

I was like, what do you think we'll do for here for a week? And he was like, play with my friend. You know, like, he just. It was just really nice, I think, for him to have some sort of, like, unstructured blocks of free time to play. And he, like, basically had his first sleepover. Like, yes, we were in the house, but he shared a room with his friend. And he was like, yeah, we woke up in the morning and just talked. I was like, oh, it was really cute. This week, I am thinking about spring cleaning. I'm also, like. I've also recently been like. I am feeling. And this is, like, maybe a topic for another episode, but I'm just feeling so burnt out, and I realize I've not had an actual vacation in, like, years.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, my gosh.

[Elise Hu]

So I. And, like, I don't see one in our. In, like, my future, really, in my near future. So I'm trying to think of, like, what can I do to sort of like take a break because I don't know, I'm just, I'm feeling like a little burnt out and like.

[Debbie Millman]

Blah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

So yeah, I'm also thinking about spring cleaning, so both of those things.

[Dory Shafrir]

I feel like our listener community can help with this like staycations or ways to, ways to kind of reset after feeling burned out. What have you all done? Yeah, call in, let us know.

[Elise Hu]

Let us know. All right, well, Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafriar and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sami Reed is our Project manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks for listening everybody.

[Dory Shafrir]

Talk to you next time.

[Elise Hu]

Bye. Learning new things makes me just feel accomplished. And I don't know about you, but I like feeling proud of myself and my accomplishments, which is why I love taking new classes on Masterclass where I can learn from the best to become my best with honestly not a ton of effort. It's available on my phone. Lessons are around 10 minutes each and if I'm busy with my eyes or my hands, I can do the audio only lessons. When in history, has it ever been easier to learn something new than it is today? Speaking of history, there's a great class that has lessons on Black history, freedom and love from influential Black voices. You must listen or watch the the lesson the Redeemer Constitution taught by Constitutional law expert Kimberly Williams Crenshaw, the creator of the phrases intersectionality, critical race theory and say Her Name. Yeah, it's full of thought provoking, eye opening history that is often brushed over if it's taught at all. Or watch Angela Davis, the Black Liberation movement icon, discuss the connection between Black women and blues music in a beautiful way that will change the way you listen to blues forever. The time to start your learning journey is now and you should do it with Masterclass. Right now, Forever 35 listeners get an additional 15 off any annual [e-mail] Forever 35. That's 15% [e-mail] Forever 35. If you are looking for a heartfelt Mother's Day gift for the woman in your life, whether she's your mom, stepmom, aunt, want family, friend, something else entirely, I recommend StoryWorth. Each week StoryWorth emails your loved one a memory provoking question that you get to help. Pick questions like did you ever get in trouble in school? Or how did you decide how many children to have? All they need to do is respond to that email with a story either typed or recorded over the phone for Storyworth to transcribe after that year of fun, Storyworth compiles your loved ones, stories and photos into a beautiful keepsake hardcover book that you'll be able to share and revisit for generations to come. I am going to just put mine on the coffee table because I want to be able to look at it like whenever I want and I want Henry to just like, want to want to flip through it. You know what I mean?

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Elise Hu]

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