Episode 348: Three Friends Who Like To Talk About Cults with Jane Borden

Summary

Podcast Summary: Forever35 Episode 348: Three Friends Who Like To Talk About Cults with Jane Borden

Introduction

In Episode 348 of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve into the intriguing and often misunderstood world of cults with their guest, Jane Borden. Jane, an accomplished author and culture journalist, brings her expertise to explore how cult-like behaviors have permeated modern American society. The conversation is both insightful and thought-provoking, shedding light on the historical roots and contemporary manifestations of cults.

Self-Care Practices

The episode begins with the hosts sharing their personal self-care routines. Jane Borden introduces her unique practice:

• "I ordered some ceremonial grade cacao and I make myself a little like high class hot cocoa and then I sit on my porch and do a little gratitude practice." ([11:39])

Jane explains that ceremonial cacao is a high-quality chocolate used in traditional rituals, emphasizing the importance of sourcing ethically. This practice helps her center herself before engaging in writing or when seeking peace and gratitude.

Defining Cults

Jane Borden provides a comprehensive definition of cults, highlighting how the term has evolved over time:

• "Cults come in all shapes and sizes. I believe a cult leader exists on the spectrum between a domestic abuser and a dictator." ([19:15])

She explains that while many organizations might exhibit one or two cult-like characteristics, true cults often involve a charismatic leader, undue influence or mind control techniques, and actual harm to members or outsiders.

Cults in American Society

Jane delves into why American society is particularly susceptible to cult-like behaviors, tracing it back to foundational Puritan beliefs:

• "America has long seen itself as the chosen nation, the light bearer, the one to bring justice or democracy or Jesus to the world." ([22:02])

She argues that the notion of American exceptionalism and the Puritan work ethic have inadvertently fostered a culture that venerates the wealthy and equates hard work with divine favor, creating fertile ground for cult-like ideologies.

Seven Puritan Credos

Jane's book centers around seven Puritan credos that she believes underpin American culture. Two key credos discussed in the episode include:

1. Innate Desire for a Strong Leader

   • "We're looking for someone to come in. And the way that the community is saved is always through violence." ([25:11])

   Jane connects this to the current political climate, where figures like Donald Trump embody the autocratic fantasies rooted in American monomyths.

2. Knee-Jerk Anti-Authoritarianism and Anti-Intellectualism

   • "We can't save ourselves, we're under threat... right." ([25:11])

   This credo fuels resistance against established institutions and fosters a reliance on charismatic leaders who promise salvation.

Autocratic Fantasies and Apocalypticism

Jane discusses how apocalyptic narratives serve as a salve during crises, providing a sense of hope through autocratic saviors:

• "Apocalypticism is almost a salve... We're going to be on top in the end." ([25:11])

She connects these narratives to popular culture, citing how the hero archetype in movies and literature mirrors the autocratic fantasies prevalent in society.

Mitigating Cult Influence

Addressing the rise of cult-like ideologies, Jane emphasizes the need to mitigate underlying societal crises:

• "The way out is to mitigate the crisis... if we're not in crisis." ([27:56])

She identifies income inequality and climate change as major drivers that, if addressed, could reduce the appeal of demagogues and cult leaders.

Individual Resilience and Leaving Cults

Jane explores the process individuals undergo to break free from cults:

• "People who leave cults... talk about this slow returning of critical thinking skills." ([29:15])

She advises against arguing with those in cults, recommending instead to ask questions and share stories to help them gradually reclaim their critical faculties.

Case Studies and Examples

Jane shares fascinating stories of historical cults, such as the Oneidans:

• "John Humphrey Noyes thought he had literally brought heaven to earth in his community." ([30:39])

She highlights how these groups believe they can create utopian societies, often leading to extreme behaviors and eventual collapse.

Social Isolation and Cults

The discussion turns to the role of social media and modern technology in fostering isolation and division:

• "Social media has isolated us from one another... feeding us extreme content." ([34:09])

Jane explains that algorithms prioritize engagement over genuine connection, making individuals more susceptible to extremist ideas and cult recruitment.

Advice for Friends and Family

Jane offers practical advice for those concerned about loved ones involved in cults:

• "Cutting people out of your life is not the answer... keep open channels of communication." ([37:36])

She emphasizes the importance of being present, non-judgmental, and encouraging critical thinking without confrontation.

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on the pervasive nature of cult-like ideologies in America and the steps needed to counteract them. Jane Borden underscores the importance of understanding the historical and cultural roots of these behaviors to effectively address and prevent their spread.

Listeners are encouraged to explore Jane's work further through her website and social media, offering resources to deepen their understanding of cults and their impact on society.

Notable Quotes

• "Cults come in all shapes and sizes. I believe a cult leader exists on the spectrum between a domestic abuser and a dictator." — Jane Borden ([19:15])

• "America has long seen itself as the chosen nation, the light bearer, the one to bring justice or democracy or Jesus to the world." — Jane Borden ([22:02])

• "Apocalypticism is almost a salve... We're going to be on top in the end." — Jane Borden ([25:11])

• "People who leave cults... talk about this slow returning of critical thinking skills." — Jane Borden ([29:15])

• "Social media has isolated us from one another... feeding us extreme content." — Jane Borden ([34:09])

Resources Mentioned

• Jane Borden's Website: janeborden.com
• Instagram: @janeborden
• Jane's Book: Cults Like Us: Why Doomsday Thinking Drives America available at major retailers

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, introductory segments, and concluding remarks unrelated to the main content to focus solely on the substantive discussions about cults and their influence on contemporary society.

Transcript

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

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[Dory Shafrir]

You know, before I lived in LA, I traveled to LA and those trips back and forth showed me that they don't call it the City of Angels for nothing. The sky is blue, the weather is gorgeous, and the food is amazing. Los Angeles chefs and mixologists draw inspiration from their varied cultural backgrounds and the city's diverse neighborhoods, making for a really exciting food scene. From game changing taco trucks to Michelin stars. If you're not a foodie, LA also has diverse cultures and communities that collaborate and mingle, elevating new voices in art, music, film and comedy. Did you know that Los Angeles has more museums and theaters than New York? From trailblazing street art to world class museums, art is everywhere in la. Plus LA knows how to put on a show. The worlds of sports and entertainment collide to create the kinds of events that could only happen here. Wherever you are in the city, you're never far from the next. Only in LA moment. Find more ways to love [e-mail] hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrir.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums and sometimes about cults.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes, great intro, Elise.

[Elise Hu]

They don't come up often, but there is kind of a cult like atmosphere around certain charismatic leaders that is not not true. Right.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, that's. That's real.

[Elise Hu]

No, I made that segue because of our guest today, who is Jane Borden, a friend of Dory's. And we can get into it a little bit more later. But, yes, like, as we are contemplating this moment in which Donald Trump is the center of our lives and our attention every single day, because every day he, like, demands our attention. It has raised a lot of questions about how we got here. And I thought talking to Jane, whose expertise is fanaticism and cults, was actually really illuminating for the moment that we're in. Yep.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes, I agree.

[Elise Hu]

Um, but we can get into it later. How are you doing? Yes, yes, yes. Let's catch up.

[Dory Shafrir]

Let's catch up, let's catch up. Um, I'm good. I mean, you know, good, good.

[Elise Hu]

Plug. Plug for Dory's substack, her new substack court date. Because her most recent one or the one last week. Now, since this is airing on Monday, kind of. Which was a thesis statement for why the new newsletter exists. And I thought it was really well written and lovely and vulnerable and. Yes.

[Dory Shafrir]

So thank you.

[Elise Hu]

I guess that the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I was asking you how you're doing, and I feel like you captured that really, really well.

[Dory Shafrir]

You know, it's funny. So I wrote about feeling like my whole sort of industry and career path has just kind of disappeared. And this was captured by a. Art. An article in the Time in the New York Times a couple weeks ago about Generation X and specifically about Generation X. People who had gone into, like, media, advertising, graphic design, like, all those sorts of industries. And it was an article that was shared very extensively, like, amongst my peer group, because a lot of us are, like, in our 40s and worked in media, and, you know, almost none of us are still working in media.

[Elise Hu]

Rob texted it to me. He was like, did you see that thing? And I was like, oh, okay, I haven't read it yet.

[Dory Shafrir]

But he.

[Elise Hu]

Rob saw it and was like, oh, this is, like, relevant.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, Rob is, like, squarely in the demographic. They actually interviewed one of my former co workers, Steve Kandell, who has pivoted to becoming a therapist. Which is. Yeah. Which is, like, very cool. But anyway, I just wrote about how, like, in the past year, the whole, like, job market and my financial situation, like, it's all just been one sort of depressing, humiliating thing after another. And, like, thank God for tennis. Like, truly thank God for tennis. And it's funny because, you know, I. As. I was writing this, I was like, does anyone care? Like, is this obvious? You know what I mean? Like, those little voices of doubt were sort of like. But I'm like, it's really nice to hear you say that. And I also, I've heard from a lot of people who were like, great newsletter. Thank you for saying this. I feel the same way. This is what's been going on with me. And so it does feel like it's, it, it has sort of like struck a chord. It's also been interesting to see how many people have like taken up tennis, like, actually taken up tennis for similar reasons in the past few years. Like, I thought of this, of my substack as being like, interesting to people who play tennis, but then also hopefully interesting to people who don't play tennis. But I've been surprised by how many people have been like, I play tennis now.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

So I don't know.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it's interesting. Tennis is such a great sport to play for the rest of your life, for the rest of your living days. I recently made a podcast about former Treasury Secretary Lloyd Benson. He died in 2006, but continued to play tennis, you know, until his final days, or at least until, you know, he was quite sick. And it engages your mind, you know, as much as it engages your physical body, which I think is so vital, but also it's social, you know. And so what made me think of this is that when they were, when he was Treasury Secretary and Alan Greenspan was the Fed Federal Reserve Chair, the two of them met for tennis every week and they did some tennis diplomacy because obviously he was the, he was the Treasury Secretary and then previously the Senate Finance Chair and then Greenspan was Fed Chairman under Clinton. And they are the ones who kind of like worked out major deficit reduction bills that then led to the ten years of prosperity under Clinton. Like the Clinton economy and how they talked about like, it's the economy, stupid, and 10 years of growth for the US economy, some of that was worked out on the tennis court. So it's a tennis story too. Yeah, yeah. So there's so many benefits of it. I'm not saying everybody has to play tennis or anything like that, but it's just a reminder of like the multi dimensional benefits of the sport, of that sport in particular.

[Dory Shafrir]

Amen. Amen. Yeah, the. I, I started working out with a new coach who I, I don't know how old he is, but he's, he seems like he might be like, he's definitely in his six, at least in his 60s. He could be in his 70s. I don't know.

[Elise Hu]

He.

[Dory Shafrir]

He seems older. And he is just hitting those tennis balls like nobody's business, you know? Yeah, it's like. It's pretty amazing.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. My dad is. My dad is now 80, and we. We went out and hit balls last year when he was in town, and so. And he says he's like two titanium hips. Maybe he shouldn't be hitting tennis balls with me.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

We don't want him to have a titanium knee, too.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. Seriously. Well, let's introduce our guest.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Who I've already alluded to because.

[Dory Shafrir]

Who you have already alluded to.

[Elise Hu]

Such a relevant conversation. Like, I didn't think about things like our current political situation, our geopolitical situation, like, and then how America wound up being so taken by a leader like Donald Trump. I didn't think of it in this way until our conversation with Jane Borden.

[Dory Shafrir]

Totally, totally. You know what? Before we introduce Jane, let me just remind everyone that Our website is forever35podcast.com we have links there to everything we mention on the show. We are also on Instagram @forever35 podcast. Our patreon is at patreon.com forever35. Our favorite products are at Shop My Us Forever35. We also have Rachel Goodwin's Rex on Shop My, and she has some amazing racks on there. If you want to call or text us, you can do that at 781-591-0390. Email us at forever35podcastmail.com and also, we're doing a listener survey right now, and it would really help us out if you could respond. So that link is in our show notes. It's in our link in bio on Instagram. It's on our website. Yeah, that would be super helpful. Elise, do you want to introduce Jane?

[Elise Hu]

Sure. Jane Borden is an author, culture journalist, and editor. She contributes regularly to Vanity Fair, has written for the New York Times Magazine and the Washington Post, among other outlets. And her new book, Cults like why Doomsday Thinking Drives America, has just been published by One Signal Publishers. And her first book, I Totally Meant to Do that, was published by Crown. Before all of that, she was a culture editor at TimeOut New York. She's also a professional editor, book coach, and ghostwriter. Jane lives here in Los Angeles. All right, here's Jane.

[Dory Shafrir]

Jane, welcome to Forever35. We are so happy to have you here on the show.

[Jane Borden]

Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.

[Dory Shafrir]

Let's start by asking the question that we ask all of Our guests, which is. Is there a self care practice that you have that you want to mention on the show?

[Jane Borden]

Yeah, I ordered some ceremonial grade cacao and I make myself a little like high class hot cocoa and then I sit on my porch and, and do a little gratitude practice.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, my gosh. Wait, what is ceremonial cacao?

[Jane Borden]

Well, so chocolate, you know, the industry, the big chocolate is degrading the product, you know, same way that you would want fair trade coffee to not have pesticides, that sort of thing, kind of similar. But you can get, you can source and they call it ceremonial grade because people use cacao in ceremonial ways. And so that's a, a shortcut, I guess, to make sure you're getting high quality product.

[Dory Shafrir]

Got it. Okay.

[Elise Hu]

And are you doing this every day? How often do you have this?

[Jane Borden]

I mean, probably not every day, but I do it a few times a week. I try to do it if I'm gonna sit down and, and if I have a lot of writing to do, I'll, I'll try to get centered first by doing that. But anytime that I want to have a little peace or center myself or remind myself the things I'm grateful for, you know.

[Elise Hu]

Lovely.

[Dory Shafrir]

I love that.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah. High class Coco.

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

I can't tell you how often I hear, oh, I'm a little ocd. I like things neat. That's not ocd. I'm Howie Mandel and I know this because I have ocd. Actual OCD causes relentless unwanted thoughts. What if I did something terrible and forgot? What if I'm a bad person? Why am I thinking this terrible thing? It makes you question absolutely everything and you'll do anything to feel better. OCD is debilitating, but it's also highly treatable with the right kind of therapy. Regular talk therapy doesn't cut it. OCD needs specialized therapy. That's why I want to tell you about NO cd. NOCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for ocd. Their licensed therapists provide specialized therapy virtually and it's covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, visit nocd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call and learn more. That's n o c d.com this podcast.

[Elise Hu]

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[Jane Borden]

Thank you. Yeah. So cult, the word cult has, the definition has changed quite a bit over the years. Today when people use the word cult, it's a pejorative and you probably have an image in your head of what one is. The agreed upon definition, at least among the anti cult movement, is one that there's a charismatic leader who's worshipped.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Jane Borden]

By members of the group, that there is undue influence or mind control techniques at play and that actual harm is being done whether to people within the group or outside of the group.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrir]

You can think about a lot of organizations that like maybe two out of the three.

[Jane Borden]

Right?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. That might seem culty or like get accused of being culty. Like people talk about CrossFit being a cult. Right. Or you know, a lot of like modern day gatherings and organizations, but they might be missing say a charismatic leader or no outright harm.

[Jane Borden]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, so what are examples of cults then?

[Jane Borden]

I mean Nexium would, would be one that's considered a cult these days. You usually have to put the word alleged in front if, if you're ever going to toss around the C word. But the big ones in American history, of course include Jo, the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas, Heaven's Gate, groups like that. But cults come in all shapes and sizes. I believe a cult leader exists on the spectrum between a domestic abuser and a dictator. And so there's a lot of room within there to experiment. The cults really have looked a million different ways. And sometimes when I was interviewing some religious studies scholars in my research and you know, they mostly study religion and, and cults today are mostly secular. And I remember this one guy was saying like, where did all the cults go? I'm like, what are you talking about? They're here. They're still here. Yeah. They're just not religious anymore.

[Elise Hu]

Right? They shape shifted.

[Jane Borden]

Yes. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

So, Jane, as someone who has known you for what, like over a decade now, I know you have been interested in cults and religion in particular for a while, but what led you to want to devote a book length project to cults?

[Jane Borden]

Well, I had been reporting on cults for Vanity Fair that started, I guess around 2017. And I was a religious studies major in college. So I've long been interested in the subject of belief and identity as it relates to belief. And it was, you know, the 2016 election where I and a lot of other people, I guess, who'd been living in a similar bubble realized exactly how divided our nation was. And that made me think of cults, because cults feed off of division. And I just started noticing the cult ideas I'd been studying and researching popping up in American culture, in secular culture. They did seem to be more prevalent in America. And so I started digging around more and it just sort of dawned on me one day like, oh, the, the Puritans and the Pilgrims were. Yeah, we would call them a cult today, you know, or at least a wacky doomsday group.

[Elise Hu]

And is that what makes America and American society today now more than 200 years on, still so kind of rife for cult like behavior or thinking? I mean, why is our country in particular susceptible?

[Jane Borden]

I think it's. It's in our origins and those, the ideas, the foundational ideas of their doomsday thought didn't go away. They just became American culture. They became the lenses through which we see ourselves and understand our national identity. I mean, the whole idea of being a chosen people. America has long seen itself as the chosen nation, the light bearer, the one to bring justice or democracy or Jesus to the world. You know that exceptionalism.

[Elise Hu]

Exceptional idea, right?

[Jane Borden]

Exactly. 100%. That's very cult like. Everyone knows that America has this problem with exceptionalism, but we aren't pulling the thread further to connect it to the ideas of our cult like founders. You know, another. Another idea about America that people are pretty familiar with is the fact that we worship the wealthy in this nation. And that comes from the Puritans. They believed that the best way to glorify God, which is what he wanted us to do, in their opinion, was through a calling, having a work. It didn't matter what it was, just that you had one and you worked and you worked hard and you worked all the time. And that's how you showed God you loved him. And to be clear, the Puritan pilgrims and Puritans were a generous society. And there was a lot of talk on the way over here about how you're going to when we get there, like you're going to give your money to your neighbor, even if you know it's not going to be paid back. But these ideas got twisted over time because if you believe that hard work is a way to love God, then if you're making money, that's a way to prove you're working hard. And if you're making money, that's a way to prove that God is rewarding you in turn. And slowly, over time, these ideas got twisted. And it didn't take long. I mean, one of the early Puritan ministers was quoted saying that religion begot prosperity and the daughter devoured the mother.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Jane Borden]

And so we see this obviously everywhere today. And this is not the first time. The Gilded Age, you know, post during the Industrial Revolution with the robber barons, was a time of great wealth. And Rockefeller was known for saying that he got his money from God. So what's dangerous about that idea is not just that it's problematic to worship rich people, but the inverse of that suggests that, that poor people are sinners, that God assessed them and deemed them unworthy. And so why help them? Because sin should be punished. Wow.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. So your book is kind of structured around these seven Puritan credos that you argue are at the heart of American culture. And I wanted to highlight two of them. One is our innate desire for a strong man to fix our problems and punish those who aggrieve us. And another is knee jerk, anti authoritarianism and anti intellectualism. And I think it's pretty obvious that both of these, like, speak to our.

[Jane Borden]

Current moment apocalypticism, which is just end time thinking it's just a fancy word for believing that the end is near. Apocalypticism is almost a salve. So when people are persecuted, they turn to these ideas because they think, boy, life is shitty. But guess what? We're going to be on top in the end. God loves us, not you. You people who have your feet on our necks, you're going to burn in hell one day. Right. And so inherent in that is this idea of rescue. We're looking for a savior, we're looking for salvation. And the book of Revelation in particular, which is the last book in the Bible, although it was never supposed to be in the Bible. That's a whole other long story because it's whackadoodle and even at the time when the Bible was canonized, scholars were like, this is wackadoodle. At any rate, it's that fire and brimstone story. You know, I say that Jesus comes down and swipes everyone left or right. And even before that, even before the great judgment, just mass death and destruction all over the globe. The Puritans were obsessed with this story. They loved it. And so this story is that narrative of salvation. It's that idea of we can't save ourselves, we're under threat, we're downtrodden. What if this loner comes out of nowhere and is our savior? And we see that story in the western genre, we see it in superhero stories. We see it, it's even. It's Jaws, it's Death Wish, the Jack Reacher series. I mean, there's three movies coming out this month that follow this trope. And it's been called the American Monomyth by a couple of really cool scholars I like. But at any rate, and so this is the story of the autocrat. Basically, we're looking for someone to come in. And the way that the community is saved is always through violence. And it's precise violence. Only the bad guys get killed. Everyone who's good is saved. And therefore it's righteous violence. And therefore it's cleansing violence. We have autocratic fantasies in this nation. And when stuff gets scary and dark here, in moments of crisis, that's when we turn toward that kind of autocratic fantasy. And it's happening now.

[Elise Hu]

So if we are so susceptible to this sort of narrative, this sort of autocratic fantasy as you describe, does history point to any way out?

[Jane Borden]

In my opinion, the way out is to mitigate the crisis. So people are not going to grasp at false promises from demagogues and self styled autocrats as they are currently, as we are currently, if they're not in crisis. And in my opinion, the biggest crisis of the day, well, obviously climate change, but, but specifically affecting this social crisis arena is income inequality. People in America are chronically unresourced. And this has been building since Reagan, really. And because we worship the wealthy, we're letting them take all the money. We, we've let them. We have let them take all the money. They control the government now. This is a plutocracy. And I think there's a lot of things that need to be done, obviously, but none of it's gonna stick if we don't resource people and deal with the wealth gap.

[Elise Hu]

If you are kind of caught up in this kind of situation, whether it's a religion or a more name brand cult in the past. What have you learned about individuals and the individual sort of resilience or ability to break free?

[Jane Borden]

Yeah. People who leave cults or who break free of QAnon, they talk about this slow returning of critical thinking skills that had been quieted by the undue influence.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Jane Borden]

And it's a very slow process and people really have to wake up on their own. And so you hear, you know, you hear people say, don't argue with someone in a cult. Don't argue with someone who believes.

[Elise Hu]

Is that right? Is that what we should do? Like say, say you meet a, I don't know, somebody of a particular religion that might seem. Cult. Like. Like, are you just supposed to say, okay, those are your beliefs?

[Jane Borden]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah. The advice is to ask questions and to share stories and try to keep them talking because it's not about the ideas. Right. And the more you can get someone talking, the more they'll start. Their critical thinking skills will start to return. But you also have to. People have to be unplugged from the charismatic leader as well. The mind body connection is strong and people have physical responses.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Jane, you mentioned the charismatic leader, and I'm wondering which of the cults or cult leaders that you wrote about did you kind of find the most fascinating? Hmm.

[Jane Borden]

And. And aren't they fascinating? We're so interested in these stories. I think, I think they're titillating because to some degree we want to join them. And I also think we watch them because we want to figure out how to make sure we don't join them. But I really like the story of the Oneidans. Bunch of, bunch of kids in the. Well, not kids, but in the mid to late 19th century, living together in a big mansion, just having sex with each other because they thought that was going to bring them closer to Jesus. They thought they were literally bringing down New Jerusalem themselves. So at the end of the Revelation story, that's, that's the deliverance is that New Jerusalem descends from the sky and the people who are still alive get to live in it forever with God. And so by the mid to late 19th century, they were like, well, it's probably not going to be a literal city made of like white gold and Jasper or whatever it is. The gates are pearls. Everyone's familiar with that one. But they were like, but it's, but it's, it still exists. And in fact, we don't have to wait for God to bring it to us. We can create it ourselves. And so they thought that's what they were doing. The leader, John Humphrey Noyes, thought he had literally brought heaven to earth in his community. And he, the, the data he cited was that no one in the community had died yet. Of course it had only been a few years. But yeah, they were an interesting one that I would have at least liked to visit.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. Based on all of your research and your expertise about cults and cult like organizations now, is there anything you're sort of watching for that like could end up being a cult?

[Jane Borden]

Any zeitgeisty community or movement gets labeled as, as culty today. Which, you know, fair.

[Elise Hu]

Right. Like multi level marketing schemes. Right. They often get.

[Jane Borden]

I would say, I would say remove the why from the word culty. I mean they're just straight up cults in my opinion. But although I guess it depends on how much the leader is, is quote unquote worshiped. That, that would be the, the signifier there. But to that point, when these groups do tip over into dangerous territory is when there's some kind of power grab by a charismatic person. You know, there's nothing inherent about a group of like minded fanatics that's going to lead them toward sexual or financial abuse. It's the usually narcissist at the top who becomes corrupted by power. Power is insatiable. You can never have enough. You just want more and more and more. And that's how things escalate in cults and always end in violence if power is allowed to continue consuming everything in its path.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Dory Shafrir]

Jane, can you talk about how loneliness and social isolation lead to. Can lead to the proliferation of cults and cult like behavior?

[Jane Borden]

Mm. Social media has isolated us from one another and from our communities. Of course, in some ways it connects us. It's not totally black and white, sure. But the algorithms as we know, are less interested in developing actual connection and more interested in keeping us engaged, which they do by feeding us extreme content. So people can become isolated without actually moving to. Into the woods in a commune. Right. A cult can be comprised of members all over the nation or globe. Right. Who happen to connect on whatever the one extreme idea is. And in general, it's this kind of division and isolation that fuels cults. Isolation as a force affects the trajectory of a group. And so it's not just that groups tend toward violence after they become isolated, it's that the isolation itself is often what leads to the violence. Because we, we just start. Yes, in each other. We Lose our filters without. When we're not engaging in the outside world, there's more in group out group think. And we evolved as a species to be very sensitive to in group out group thinking because for most of you know, the species, the history of our species and our closest relatives before us, basically if an outsider showed up, they were looking to kill you almost always. And you were also going out and looking for other groups to attack and kill. We weren't just like hanging out in our separate tribes, live and let live. It was very much about conquering one another. And that's because, and they've studied this behavior in chimpanzees. And that's for a very simple reason. You want more land, you get more resources. And we evolved to band together and cooperate with anyone who's in our in group. And studies have shown that the more extreme the ideas are within a group, the more brand loyalty because it makes your group that much more distinct from others and therefore identifiable as a group.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that would explain kind of the polarization too, or the, the, the allure of more extremist politics.

[Jane Borden]

When people are divided, they're easier to conquer. I think that also goes within the self. When we are divided within ourselves and this is like the separation between the mind and the body or you know, often cult leaders encourage their followers to silence their intuitions or their guts that that's like some kind of wrong thinking. And this is an effort, in my opinion, to conquer. It's division, as I, as I say again and again, fuels cults and a variety of definitions of that word, division.

[Elise Hu]

So for those of us who are kind of watching what's happening and despairing about it and kind of standing outside cults or what seems like a modern day political, cultural. How should we respond? What if you are a loved one? You know, what if we're sort of looking at this on the outside, looking in and aghast.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah. Cutting people out of your life is not the answer. Even though it's tempting. Keeping open channels of communication when, when we're specifically talking about loved ones or friends so that person knows that you're, you're there and, and they can talk to you. If they ever do have, if they ever do start questioning and they won't feel judged by you. Right. And then also as I said earlier, just to get people talking, to get them, you know, asking questions about their ideas. Well, tell me about that. Why do you believe that sometimes they, they'll start to hear themselves the more they try to explain things. But explaining things to them, no. Does not work. Never ever. As I, as I mentioned, I think we all need to work toward a more financially equitable country. And obviously that's a big lift right now because there's not a lot of political will. But in the meantime, I mean, this may sound hackneyed, but mutual aid, acts of kindness within your community because our government's not looking out for us anymore. It's really on us and it's a way for us to turn toward one another tangibly.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Jane, I asked you this question last night and your response was so fascinating that I want to ask you again. But what did you leave on the cutting room floor for this book? Like, oh yeah, what didn't you get.

[Jane Borden]

To put in a lot. A lot of fun little silly things that I found when I was going down research rabbit holes. There was one. One big story that I had to cut alt together, which I'm still sad about, about the Cult Awareness Network, which was a big and. And somewhat splashy organization. This was in the 80s, in the 80s and 90s. 1980s and 90s are now known as the cult wars. And this was when groups like the Moonies and Scientology suddenly had incredible power and money and parents who were losing their children to these groups were freaking out and they were looking for information. And so this organization can Cult Awareness Network became like a help desk, like a hotline, you could call them. And people in the anti cult movement who were studying these organizations could share advice and information about specific groups or just about cult like thinking in general, you know, kind of as we've done today. And also at the time, deprogramming was somewhat popular as a last resort for desperate parents. And another word for deprogramming is kidnapping. I mean people would, wow, trick with the parents. You know, the parents were part of the scheme and they would like convince their child, oh, come home and do laundry or can you come have lunch? Grandpa's coming over. Like some, some way to get the kid in the. Into a space. And then the, the per. The kid arrives and like, guess what? The windows are barred and you know, they're. They're tied to a chair while an exit counselor tries to talk them out of the cult. Some. This one guy. And so. All right, I'm getting ahead of myself. So the fatal flaw of the, of the Cult Awareness Network is that they brokered one of these deals and when it went awry, this guy Jason Scott was kidnapped in a van, roughed up, it was not pretty. And they took him into this safe house locked him inside. And after a while, he tricked them into believing that he was being deprogramming, deprogrammed, that it was successful. And then he fled and went to the police. Everybody got arrested. There was a big trial, and they lost. And cult, the Cult Awareness Network ended up having to file for bankruptcy. And in the sale of their assets, the name and all their assets and everything was purchased by Scientology. And so then if you were a desperate parent calling for advice about Scientology, the people who answered the phone.

[Elise Hu]

We're Scientologists.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah. Whoa. That's pretty sneaky, man.

[Dory Shafrir]

Isn't that nuts?

[Elise Hu]

That's wild. That is wild. Well, thank you so much for sharing the extra stories with us and just taking the sort of big picture view on what's happening in this moment. It's helped make sense of things for us as we've been trying to navigate our way through.

[Jane Borden]

So, yeah, and that's. That's all I can hope for. You know, I. Obviously, I hope your listeners will want to buy the book because I'd like to continue having a career, but mostly I'm trying to. I'm trying to reveal how the magic trick works. You know what I mean? I want. The more people who can understand this and then start to see it right where it's hiding in plain sight and then start to acknowledge it and call it out, the less likely we're all going to be successfully exploited by bad actors who use our latent indoctrination to activate us to serve their own ends.

[Elise Hu]

All right, well, Jane.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. Where can our listeners find you?

[Jane Borden]

Janeborden.com and I'm on Instagram at Jane Borden. The book's available everywhere.

[Elise Hu]

Fantastic.

[Jane Borden]

Thanks.

[Dory Shafrir]

Well, Jane was delightful.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I'm glad that you got to talk to her twice, too. You got to do her book event.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. That was super fun.

[Elise Hu]

So. And it helped inform our conversation with her.

[Jane Borden]

So.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. Yes. Okay. Last week, I was talking about spring cleaning slash, vacation. No progress on the vacation front, but I have made some progress on spring cleaning. I got rid of Henry. Henry had two strollers. One, like, enormous, like, tank, like one. And then, like, a travel stroller. And they just been, like, living in our vestibule for ever, and I gave them away on buy nothing.

[Elise Hu]

Oh. End of an era.

[Dory Shafrir]

It was very, very satisfying. And so. Yeah, so I want to just kind of, like, continue that momentum.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

And then this week. This week, I have my DC trip. So, yeah, I'm just gonna try and have fun and enjoy time with family.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. That was my intention last week. My intention was lots of family time before I headed out of town for the TED Conference. And I did have a weekend full of family because my parents are staying with us. And the girls had lots of activities. Luna had her eighth birthday, and so we did lots of eighth birthday festivities. Hosted her first sleepover. That was so much fun. And the girls, like, came up with their own. Like the. Luna and her friends. Not, not my children, but Luna and her friends came up with their own scavenger hunts. Like in the front house, in the back house, and in the yard, they like wrote clues. And so there were. It was like lots of just free play and creativity.

[Dory Shafrir]

That's awesome.

[Elise Hu]

On display, which was awesome. And then. And then Ava had her first middle school dance, which went very well. I will have to share on a casual chat all my observations about that next time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, yeah, I should have asked you about that on the last casual chat.

[Elise Hu]

We didn't even get to talk about it because, like, so much has happened at tech.

[Dory Shafrir]

I know, I know, I know, I know. Oh, my gosh.

[Elise Hu]

But we'll have to catch up about that next time. Yes. And so family time. Yes. Achievement unlocked. That happened. And so my intention this week is going to be just really. I guess I'll set the intention as attention. So just really being in being present and giving who I'm with the attention that they deserve. Because especially at these really scattered huge events with lots and lots of people, like, it's very easy to get distracted and just be like a whirling dervish and flit about. And I think attention is the way to actually is a really great antidote for that. So attention will be my intention.

[Dory Shafrir]

I love that. All right, well, Elise, great to see you as always. Thanks everyone for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks, everyone.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time.

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dory Shafrir]

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