Episode 352: Motherhood in the Age of Surveillance with Amanda Hess

Summary

Podcast Summary: Forever35 - Episode 352: Motherhood in the Age of Surveillance with Amanda Hess

Release Date: May 12, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Amanda Hess, Critic at Large for The New York Times

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Introduction

In Episode 352 of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve into the intricate relationship between motherhood and technology with esteemed guest Amanda Hess. The conversation, set against the backdrop of modern digital surveillance, explores how technology shapes and monitors the experience of parenting in today's hyper-connected world.

Guest Introduction

Elise introduces Amanda Hess, highlighting her extensive career as a writer and critic, including her role at The New York Times and her acclaimed book, Second Life. Hess’s work primarily focuses on internet culture, pop culture, and the intersection of technology with daily life, making her an ideal voice for discussing motherhood in the digital age.

Self-Care Practices in Parenting

The episode begins with a discussion on self-care amidst the challenges of book promotion and parenting. Amanda shares her journey of self-care, revealing how she ceased alcohol consumption nine months prior to manage anxiety without relying on temporary fixes. She states:

“I stopped drinking, like, nine months ago. And I feel like it's just... it's very helpful at this time where I'm super anxious and I don't have this, like, false anxiety cure that I can reach for.”
— Amanda Hess [19:19]

This candid admission underscores the importance of authentic self-care practices over superficial solutions, especially during stressful periods.

Impact of Technology on Early Parenthood

Elise reflects on the stark differences in parenting experiences before and after the digital revolution, noting the absence of pervasive technology and surveillance in early parenthood a decade ago. Amanda concurs, emphasizing how her relationship with technology intensified during her pregnancies:

“My relationship with technology became so intense as like the months went on. I was like, those feelings of shame and those things that were brought up are things that like are actually recommending this as a subject to me.”
— Amanda Hess [22:14]

Amanda discusses how pregnancy apps transitioned from simple period trackers to comprehensive monitoring tools, intertwining her personal health and pregnancy journey with constant digital surveillance.

Surveillance and Cultural Implications

A central theme of the episode is the cultural embedding of surveillance in motherhood. Amanda articulates concerns about how technology perpetuates a culture of monitoring and control:

“The problem was so much bigger than that, unfortunately. And the structures that are involved in the surveillance and the criminalization of pregnancy and motherhood are like our doctors and our hospitals.”
— Amanda Hess [25:40]

She elaborates on how surveillance extends beyond apps to institutional practices, highlighting incidents where doctors conducted unauthorized drug tests on pregnant women, sparking debates on personal privacy and autonomy.

Assessment of Parenting Technologies

Amanda critically examines popular parenting apps like Flow, discussing their evolution and the underlying motivations driven by profit and data accumulation:

“They're created to make money. They're created to, like, amass as much power as possible to get you to open them as much as possible.”
— Amanda Hess [34:26]

She points out that despite addressing past critiques, platforms like Flow continue to prioritize business interests over genuine user well-being, making it challenging to discern the true value of these technologies.

Community Care vs. Individual Responsibility

The conversation shifts to the concept of community care as a framework for effective parenting. Amanda contrasts societal expectations of individual responsibility for child-rearing with the benefits of community-oriented approaches:

“I feel like the thing that's missing for me, even as someone who like has all of the things that in America are supposed to like lift you out of this... is just that there is no way to buy sufficient really medical system for myself and my family and my kids.”
— Amanda Hess [43:01]

She advocates for mutual aid and community support systems, emphasizing that true effective parenting extends beyond individual efforts to include collective responsibility and support.

Optimism Amidst Technological Challenges

Despite the pervasive issues with technology in parenting, Amanda finds hope in the growing tech literacy and resistance among the younger generation:

“I think there's a lot of resentment toward our tech overlords that I think is really actually amazing and productive because we should be hugely skeptical of these people.”
— Amanda Hess [49:23]

She believes that increased awareness and critical perspectives on technology can lead to more informed and conscientious use of digital tools in parenting.

Conclusion and Future Engagements

The episode concludes with Amanda Hess sharing her upcoming book tour details and encouraging listeners to engage with her work on social media. She reflects on the personal growth she experienced through writing Second Life and looks forward to continuing the dialogue on motherhood and technology.

“I really think that we should all be parenting each other more... it's something that I discovered at the time when I had the least amount of bandwidth to do anything else.”
— Amanda Hess [43:38]

Amanda emphasizes the importance of community involvement and mutual support as essential components of effective and healthy parenting.

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Key Takeaways

• Technology’s Dual Role: While technology provides valuable tools for tracking and managing aspects of parenting, it also introduces a layer of surveillance that can impact mental health and autonomy.

• Cultural Surveillance: The integration of surveillance in motherhood is deeply rooted in societal structures, including medical institutions, perpetuating a culture of control over maternal behavior.

• Community Over Individualism: Effective parenting is increasingly seen as a collective responsibility rather than an individual endeavor, highlighting the need for community support systems.

• Resilience and Resistance: Growing tech literacy and skepticism among newer generations offer a pathway to balancing the benefits and drawbacks of technology in parenting.

Notable Quotes

“I stopped drinking, like, nine months ago. And I feel like it's just... it's very helpful at this time where I'm super anxious and I don't have this, like, false anxiety cure that I can reach for.”
— Amanda Hess [19:19]

“The problem was so much bigger than that, unfortunately. And the structures that are involved in the surveillance and the criminalization of pregnancy and motherhood are like our doctors and our hospitals.”
— Amanda Hess [25:40]

“They're created to make money. They're created to, like, amass as much power as possible to get you to open them as much as possible.”
— Amanda Hess [34:26]

“I really think that we should all be parenting each other more... it's something that I discovered at the time when I had the least amount of bandwidth to do anything else.”
— Amanda Hess [43:38]

“I think there's a lot of resentment toward our tech overlords that I think is really actually amazing and productive because we should be hugely skeptical of these people.”
— Amanda Hess [49:23]

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Final Thoughts

Episode 352 of Forever35 offers a profound exploration of the intersection between motherhood and technology, guided by Amanda Hess's insightful perspectives. The discussion challenges listeners to reflect on their relationship with technology, the cultural implications of surveillance in parenting, and the importance of community support in raising children. Through candid conversations and thoughtful analysis, the episode provides a nuanced understanding of the modern challenges and opportunities in balancing technology with authentic, community-driven parenting practices.

Transcript

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

How's it going, Elise?

[Elise Hu]

Well, we owe our listeners an update on your hair status because last time we recorded a Monday episode you talked about how you were Going to find out from your dermatologist whether your hair treatment or your. The minoxidil you've been taking has worked. So that's true. Casual chat listeners already know this because they are part of our Patreon community. But for everyone else, give us the update.

[Dory Shafrier]

So I've been taking generic minoxidil for six months now. And my dermatologist, like, when I first started, he really wanted to like set expectations and he was like, it's going to take several months to see results. Don't get discouraged. It's not like you instantly start growing hair. And I was like, okay. But I would say like three months in, I started noticing that I was losing less hair. So that was a big change. Like in the shower I was losing a lot less hair. And then I started noticing like little hairs growing in, in places that had been very sparse. And I just went back for my 6 months checkup and everything seems to be working. Like he amazing said, yeah, he was like, you know, it's, you have growth and you're not losing as much hair and we're just going to kind of stay the course.

[Elise Hu]

Yay.

[Dory Shafrier]

If you think you might have hair loss, especially if you're like in your 30s and 40s, perimenopausal, menopausal, like go to your doctor. Because also minoxidil is a generic. I just paid $3 with insurance for a month's supply. So there's no like, what. There's no reason to, to not go. Although you shouldn't, you shouldn't be on it if you're pregnant or thinking about getting pregnant. But other than that, I have had no side effects. Some people, some people do have side effects. He was very careful to like ramp up my dose gradually. Like we started on a pretty low dose. Now it's a little bit higher, but it's still full. Like it's not like a high dose. So I like that he was sort of cautious. I have seen people who like started on a high dose report that they had some like, weird side effects. So.

[Elise Hu]

Huh.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Well, I'm just glad it, it works. And then it's $3.

[Dory Shafrier]

I know.

[Elise Hu]

And I. And it's so much more affordable with, if you are fortunate enough to be insured, it's so much more affordable than neutrophil. A lot of folks talk about neutropol, the hair vitamin, but that can be something like 60 to $80 a bottle. And then you have to take multiple pills over the course of a day or the multiple vitamins over the course of a day. So, yeah, going to your dermatologist and getting a prescription that insurance pays for seems like the more frugal option, more for your buck.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, it feels like a no brainer. So that's the update.

[Elise Hu]

Yay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, it's going well. And you know, as someone who never had thick hair to begin with, like, I always had pretty fine hair so that when I started losing some of it, it was like, oh, dear. Like, this is. This is. It felt to me like it was quite noticeable. It's really nice to like, to be like, oh, this is. I'm like feeling good about my hair in a way that I haven't in a really long time.

[Elise Hu]

Great news. Great news. And I want to wish you a happy Mother's Day as well, because this is airing just the day after Mother's Day.

[Dory Shafrier]

And likewise, happy Mother's Day.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you. And what a fitting episode to have the day after Mother's Day because Amanda Hess, who is our guest later in the show, her book Second Life is really all about her journey into motherhood during this hyper digital time that we live in. I've been actually reflecting a lot after we spoke to her about how because I had my first child now nearly 13 years ago, there was just like, so much less stuff, so much less digital monitoring of babies and of ourselves and fewer tests available when you were pregnant, but then also less, you know, amusements and things for the kids. There were just fewer apps and fewer, there was less gadgetry, I guess, but also like, there wasn't as, there wasn't as much digital storage on my phone. And so I take video.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right?

[Elise Hu]

Like, so now I know people have a lot of video of their babies. And I think back on Ava and even Issa, who's going to be 10 this year, my middle, like, I don't have that much video of them because it would have taken up like, too much space. Maybe they don't need to have like an ultra recorded life. Like, and a lot of kids now there's like a backlash to the mommy bloggers, right, who have put their kids out without in order to kind of make a brand for themselves and maybe even make money. And that has felt exploitative to a lot of the kids. And so, yeah, it's just raised a lot of questions, I think for me, ever since we spoke to her. I think y' all are going to find this conversation interesting. But even since, you know, probably five, six years ago when you were having Henry, things have improved and, and technology has evolved and there's so much more AI now involved in, in our worlds and our digital lives. And I wonder how that's intersecting with early parenthood.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I, I found Amanda's book so interesting. And her, her oldest is I think a year younger than Henry. So we had some similar experiences. But also she had a, she had a real pandemic baby. And that is like a, that's like a real dividing line I've noticed among parents of young kids.

[Elise Hu]

Like, huh.

[Dory Shafrier]

You either had the pre pandemic experience of having a baby, like having an infant, or you didn't. And the people who gave birth in like mid to late 2020 and then like all of 2021 had like an extremely different experience.

[Amanda Hess]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And yeah, I think about that all the time.

[Elise Hu]

I remember you had to give birth, you know, without your partner. Yeah. Because they would only. They wouldn't allow visitors in the delivery. Delivery room for fear of expanding the COVID bubble and all of that.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow. Like, people had to give birth. People to give birth. Masked.

[Elise Hu]

Mm.

[Dory Shafrier]

Which like, is brutal. Just so many things. And, and also, like, as a new mom, those like, Mommy and me classes were so important just for my, like, mental health and connection and, you know, meeting other parents. And the people who had pandemic babies didn't get to do those. Like, they had some on Zoom, but like, it's not the same, so.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And they didn't get to, like, a lot of them didn't get to have family come. I don't know. It was just, it's, it's just interesting how that's become such a, like, dividing line among kids around Henry's age.

[Elise Hu]

What a time.

[Dory Shafrier]

What a time. Anyway, should we get to Amanda?

[Elise Hu]

We should. I feel like we've kind of talked generally around it, but you're going to find this conversation, I think, very thoughtful and. Or it's going to lead to a lot of different ways to think about the way we live now, whether you're a mom or not.

[Dory Shafrier]

Before we introduce her, just a couple of reminders. Our website is forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com forever35. You can shop our favorite products at Shopmy Us forever35. And we have a newsletter at forever35podcast.com Newsletter Also, please call and text us 781-591-0390. Email us at forever35podcastmail.com. We use your texts and emails and voicemails for our mini apps. We also just love hearing from you. Even if you want to like text us with something that's not for a mini app, do that. And then we are also taking questions about money for our upcoming Money Month. So if you have any like money or personal finance type questions, send those on over and we will have one of our amazing guests respond.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, Elise, do you want to like formally introduce Amanda?

[Elise Hu]

Amanda Hess is a critic at large for the New York Times. She writes about Internet and pop culture for the Culture section and contributes regularly to the New York Times Magazine. Hess has worked as an Internet columnist for Slate Magazine, an editor at Good magazine, and an arts and nightlife columnist at the Washington City Paper. She has also written for such publications as ESPN the Magazine, Wired, and Pacific Standard, where her feature on the online harassment of women won a National Magazine Award for Public Interest. Her new book, Second Life is out now.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, well we are going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be back with Amanda Hess.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Howie Mandel]

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[Elise Hu]

Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I'm Noah Michelson, also from HuffPost. And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all.

[Elise Hu]

Too human anxieties we have about trying.

[Dory Shafrier]

To get our lives right.

[Elise Hu]

Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we.

[Dory Shafrier]

Want to understand better and bring a.

[Elise Hu]

Guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right. Right? And we're talking like legit credible experts. Doctors, PhDs, all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios.

[Dory Shafrier]

Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts. Amanda, welcome to Forever35. It is such a delight to have you on the show.

[Amanda Hess]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm such a fan.

[Dory Shafrier]

Ditto. We both, I mean, I feel like I've been reading your stuff for over a decade.

[Elise Hu]

You've churned out a lot of content over the years, Amanda.

[Amanda Hess]

Sure have. Yeah, one might say too much content.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, we'll get, we'll get to this. But I. There were so many moments of like, recognition for me in your experience. Like they weren't exactly the same as your experiences, obviously, but you had this one part where you described rereading something you had written a long time ago that went against like kind of where your life has ended up. And I was like, oh, I. Yes, this is very clear.

[Amanda Hess]

It's about why I wasn't going to have kids.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Amanda Hess]

And it was all just, it was just like needlessly mean to moms also. And I'm like, wow, that really came back to bite me in the ass. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. Anyway, we'll get to all this. As you may know, we like to start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So is there anything that you are doing right now in the midst of book promotion, which is not exactly known for being a period of great self care, but is there anything that you're doing that you would consider self caring?

[Amanda Hess]

Yeah, I feel like I wrote this book which is about my first pregnancy and becoming a parent, and then I sold it when I was newly pregnant with my second child. And so I did not take care of myself like at all as I was writing the book. And it really became this kind of crisis at a certain point. I remember when I turned in my final draft, my editor was like, I hope this has been a nourishing process for you. And I was like, are you joking? Like, I've never felt so insane.

[Dory Shafrier]

Nourishing.

[Amanda Hess]

I mean, he's amazing and he nourished me, but I was not nourishing myself. So I definitely had to take stock of certain things. And one thing is that I actually did this for a very vain reason. But after I finished the book, I had to take author photos and I decided to stop drinking for a couple of weeks before I took them so that I looked like, somehow refreshed and like hydrated. And I was so anxious at the end of the two weeks after not having my like, kind of like Nightly take the edge off, drink that. I was like, I think I need to reassess this. So I stopped. I stopped drinking, like, nine months ago. And I feel like it's just. It's very helpful at this time where I'm super anxious and I don't have this, like, false anxiety cure that I can reach for. So that's what I'm doing or not doing.

[Elise Hu]

That sounds so healthy.

[Amanda Hess]

Sadly, it really is helpful.

[Elise Hu]

No. Good, good, good, good. Next question. Kind of following on that is, how do you think the way that or how have you sort of changed the way you've carved out time for yourself and maintained your relationships and your network amid all of this change in your own life? Like, can you speak to how you're taking care of yourself now versus, say, five years ago, before you became a mom of two?

[Amanda Hess]

I definitely am healthier than I was before, and I treat myself better than I did before. And I think becoming a parent prompted me to do that first because, like, I'm newly afraid of dying. You know, I'm like, oh, my kids need a parent. I need to take care of my kids. And I want to be, you know, I want to be around for them for as long as I can be, which is not something I was thinking about before. I think I, you know, like, any younger person just assumed that on some level I wasn't going to die eventually. And I don't know, just, like, growing, like, helping to, like, raise two kids and, like, seeing them use their bodies and stuff. I'm like, wow, bodies are important. I should be, you know, I should be nicer to mine.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Amanda Hess]

And I see so much of myself in my kids, and so it's, like, so important to be kinder to myself in order to, like, accept the parts of them that we share, you know?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Love it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, I'd love to kind of segue into talking about your new book, Second Life. Could you just give our listeners a sort of brief overview of what it's about and why you wanted to explore the questions that you kind of get into in the book?

[Amanda Hess]

Yeah. The book is about my relationship with technology as I became a parent and how digital technologies are mediating all of our relationships with our kids and with ourselves. And I think I had this idea before I decided to have kids where I was sort of thinking about writing a book, and I wanted to see a nonfiction book where the Internet sort of played a kind of embodied character and where it took up as much space on the page as it was, like, taking up in my own brain. But I wasn't sort of sure where to focus it. And then when I got pregnant, my relationship with technology became so intense as like the months went on. I was like that those feelings of shame and those things that were brought up are things that like are actually recommending this as a subject to me. So I sort of fought the idea of writing a book about parenthood for a while before I ultimately accepted it.

[Elise Hu]

I have to say, as somebody who went through my first pregnancy and the birth of my first child 13 years ago now, I cannot believe how much had changed just between 13 years ago and then five years ago when you were pregnant in terms of how tech assisted and consumerist, having a baby or getting pregnant even. So getting pregnant, having a baby and then raising a child has become. You have this line that kind of sum things up. First I had learned to track my periods, then my pregnancy, and now I was tracking my kids from a surveillance camera perched above their beds. So talk a little bit about just the mountain of apps and trackers and smart devices and machines that are now involved with early parenting and what you make of it all.

[Amanda Hess]

Yeah, I mean, so I used an app to track my period that then became my fertility assistant and then became my pregnancy app. And that was just the kind of introduction into just this external kind of surveillance that was becoming very intimate during the pregnancy. I so wanted to do what I could to do it right, whatever that means, that I became really obsessed with understanding what the expectations were of me as a pregnant person. Even if I wasn't going to necessarily implement all of the recommendations. I just wanted to know what these kind of unfocused judgments were that I was sort of feeling directed at me. And then, you know, I became my pregnancy and my body and my mind like eventually became so entwined with technology that it wasn't until my son was born that I had to really kind of confront how to unwind it. Because now he was a person, like he wasn't an idea anymore. And there's this very kind of slick way that all of these sort of disciplinary pregnancy technologies can then sort of lead you to these newborn and childhood technologies. And my kids don't even have technologies that they really use yet. So I haven't even, you know, encountered.

[Elise Hu]

That's a whole other thing. Yeah, that's your next book.

[Amanda Hess]

Yeah, I know. But I had of course, like I'm, you know, reading and seeing everybody talking about kids relationship with tech. And I think I felt like I needed to understand my own relationship with technology before that started to confront me. But this thing that you're saying about, you know, 13 years ago, all this stuff being different, I think that's part of what makes it so insidious, is that, you know, it's not something that I could ask my mom about. It's not something I could even ask, like, many of my friends about who were offered different prenatal tests even a year before I was pregnant. And so there were so many things that, you know, add that on top of, you know, earlier in my pregnancy, not wanting to discuss it with anyone, like, not revealing it with anyone, it really increased my reliance on technology and just this intimacy of my relationship with my phone.

[Dory Shafrier]

What was it like to kind of look at yourself as a subject in this way? Because you've written so much about technology and culture and, you know, done some amazing profiles, and here you're really kind of turning the lens on yourself.

[Amanda Hess]

It was confusing. I mean, I think, like, the thing above all that I loved about writing a book was that I didn't have to just, like, present my evidence and my conclusions in, like, 900 words and then, like, hit publish and move on. Yeah, a book is very much about your process of coming to those thoughts and then changing them. And I wanted to understand, like, why I felt one way when I was pregnant and then a different way after my son was born and stuff like that. But I think there was always something in my mind that was, like, this tension between, like, when you read a book, you want the character to be interesting and you want them to be flawed. Like, I love reading books about people who are evil, you know, but when you talk about a real person, especially one who is a mother, people tend not to like that stuff as much. And so there was a part of my brain that I had to be like, well, what if someone took just this paragraph and put it online? Like, what would people think of you? And there was a part of my head that was like, this book is a total referendum on you as a human being that I had to just kind of dispel at a certain point. And now, you know, that I finished the book. It seems now so long ago. And so now I can sort of distance myself from it and be like, this is. My ideas on some of these things have changed even further now. So it's just this object in the world that's less, I think, feels less close to me.

[Elise Hu]

After all of this exploration of both our social norms and our tech, tech reality and the optimization of care, where do you feel like things are Going when it comes to caregiving.

[Amanda Hess]

Yeah. I mean, or where are you worried.

[Elise Hu]

That things are going?

[Amanda Hess]

I think one of the things that I was really interested in exploring in the book was not just how technologies facilitate a kind of surveillance, but how the practice of surveillance is really embedded in our culture and in our politics. And so I didn't want to write a book that was like, you know, about how period apps represent a completely new threat, and if we just get rid of them, you know, that that would necessarily be helpful. I think you should totally get rid of your period up and throw your phone into the ocean or whatever, if you like. But I just came to feel like the problem was so much bigger than that, unfortunately. And the structures that are involved in the surveillance and the criminalization of pregnancy and motherhood are like our doctors and our hospitals. And now I think, you know, in. Under, like, the second Trump administration, all of that is, like, very overt and sort of reaching a crisis point. This culture of surveillance kind of like lives in all of us, and it's something that we can start to deprogram ourselves from. One of the things that I found most interesting when I was writing the book is just these points where people who I was encountering were taking some kind of perceived benefit from being surveilled or from surveilling their kids. So it's not that we just all agree that, like, surveillance of our bodies is bad. Like, I. There's this Reddit thread that I found where someone was complaining, I think rightfully about how their doctor had tested. They were pregnant, and their doctor had tested their urine for drugs without their consent, and they found this. They were charged for the test, and so they discovered it. So the test was negative, but they were still angry about it. And there were all of these responses that were like, oh, well, what do you. If you don't have anything to hide, then why do you really care? Like, I guess maybe you shouldn't have had to pay for it, but it's totally acceptable for it to happen. And I think, you know, that's something that I had not appreciated enough before, that there is this sense of approval that we can also get from these surveillance structures. And it's just as important to sort of approach that and try to dismantle that. Like, turning to history and just the history of the ideologies that are coming into play in these technologies has been clarifying for me.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, one thing that you highlight that I think is so important is who is behind these apps. Like you. You kind of tease out the difference between the founders of Flow and the founder of Clue. And I think, you know, looking at those apps in a way that shows that the motivations of the founders and how they've used the data and kind of like what their plans are is so important and something that I think sort of gets lost. What is the current status of fl?

[Amanda Hess]

So Flow is the. It's the period app that I use to track my cycles, and then I used it to track my pregnancies. And it was created by a couple of twins, these, like, male twins. And it is. It has since become. I think it recently became the first, like, femtech unicorn company, which means that it's valued at over a billion dollars. So it is. There was a lot of reporting done about Flow specifically a few years ago that became even more salient after RO was overturned about their data policies. And I think Flow is not the only app or the only period app that has those issues, but they became the sort of face of it. And it seems like they have transcended those critiques. There's just something about it where even for me, as someone who I guess I feel like I know something about technology. Like, I chose my period app just by searching in the App Store and choosing the first one. I just chose the first one, and that's, you know, the most popular one and the most powerful one. And it's Flow. You know, Flow has, like, I think, absorbed a lot of its critiques in the past few years, and so they've changed some of their language. They've hired a lot of women to write the content. Even in the five years since I first used it, some of the stuff that I write about has changed. They used to have this image of the pregnant body that looked like this slender white Barbie doll with her head cut off. And they've since changed it to a kind of ethnically ambiguous cartoon type of thing. And so the app is responding to these critiques, but I think it's still helpful to go back to the beginning and understand why it was created, because, like, none of these technologies, or very few of them, are created selflessly. Like, they're created to make money. They're created to, like, amass as much power as possible to get you to open them as much as possible. And so, you know, there's very few technological advancements that are developed outside of that system. And so when we're thinking about whether technology is good or bad, we don't actually even have an opportunity to understand whether these things are good or bad, because they're created in such a bad context. They're not created to help us or for human betterment or whatever. And so it's so hard to say, yeah, that's flow. You know, flow's doing very well for itself.

[Dory Shafrier]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

On the other end of the spectrum are the women who seemingly reject all of this and go churn butter out on a homestead. And I assume you don't come down on that side where you, where you have completely rejected technology in your child rearing. Where did you land?

[Amanda Hess]

I mean, I think it's interesting because this tradwife figure that you're alluding to, even though she represents this ideological throwback, like, I see her as such a hyper modern figure where she represents this woman who is like constantly consuming, constantly producing, she's handling all of her domestic tasks even while she's simultaneously broadcasting herself and making an income that way. And so I think she really represents these demands, even though, like, I don't feel very implicated by her as a figure because, like, she's just too different from me. She really represents all of the, I think, pressures and expectations on mothers, most of whom, like, forget about choosing to work. Like, most people have to work. Most people have to have, you know, if they live in a. If they have a family, if they have a partner in most families, like, everyone who is capable of working is working. So if you want to have kids, you're just going to be trying to handle both. And so I think she represents this fantasy that we could just easily do this all at the same time when, of course, that's not the case. But I will say that I'm not churning butter because I don't have time for that. But I have certainly, like, not as a. It's not really a philosophical thing for me. I've just come to understand that a lot of the technologies that I had used when my children were babies are not actually particularly helpful. And I've like, come to understand that my desire to have access to a certain technology is not the same as that technology being good for my family. So part of why it's so helpful for me to now just have a very janky audio monitor is that I am someone who would be trying to spy in my kid's bedroom a lot of the time if I had access to that. And very occasionally there are times when it would be helpful for me to not physically be present, but to understand if my wrestling kids are like, giving each other A bloody nose. But, you know, it's not that hard to also just sort of go in there. So I don't know. I mean, I don't know how you land on something. It's also that, like, my kids are older, they're 2 and 4, they're not babies anymore. And this fantasy that I can control them has been totally obliterated. And so just many of these technologies have, like lost their sparkle.

[Dory Shafrier]

Kind of along those lines. In the last chapter of your book, you go to the Matriarch Rising Festival and your experience there is, I think it's fair to say it was a negative experience. And as I was reading it, you know, you obviously did the reporting for this book, and I think wrote the book before the RFK Maha movement, like, really kind of emerged. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about how people like the Free Birth. I'm blanking on her name, but the Free Birth Influencer and this Matriarch Rising Festival have led to this Make America Healthy again.

[Amanda Hess]

Yeah, I think one of the final edits I made to the book was to note how the Free Birth Society, which is that they promote giving birth with no medical assistance, was celebrating his appointment, Donald Trump appointing him. You know, I feel like I came to understand what might lead to stuff like an anti vaccine sentiment so much better after becoming pregnant myself and having a kid and writing this book. And I think it's, you know, before I might have thought it was like a misinformation, a disinformation problem. And I think that's just like the end of the funnel where the movement becomes focused on a certain thing, like a vaccine over something else. But I really think, you know, trying to put myself in the position of someone who. A lot of these women are white. They were raised in conservative, often very religious communities and households where their eventual position as a mother was very important to their identity even as they were kids. I didn't grow up in a situation like that at all. But even so, when I became pregnant, I really internalized this idea that I needed to discipline my body in order to make sure I didn't mess up my pregnancy in some way, whatever that means. And then later in my pregnancy, when my son was diagnosed with a genetic condition, only then did I really start to understand that there is. That's not just a misogynistic idea. It's also this idea that's rooted in great stigma against disability. And so even though my kid's genetic condition may or may not have any environmental element to it. I blamed myself. And I was just. I needed to know what it was that I had done that had caused it, that had caused, like, my son's body to develop in this certain way, like, while it was inside of me. And then, you know, after he was born, I spent many years kind of, like, unpacking those feelings. But it really made me understand how, you know, for mothers who are told that it's their sole responsibility to, like, purify themselves in order to create healthy, normal children than to end up having a child who has any kind of difference or, you know, who has autism, I just understand how seductive it could be to think that there was an external cause to that and then to reassert your sort of power and authority as a mother by fighting against it in a political sense. And so I just think all of those pieces are so American, and they're just so embedded in our culture, and they're really exacerbated by the commodification of healthcare. And we just, you know, I feel like I'm going to be for the rest of my life, like, we will be trying to work to dismantle those things, because it's really moving in the opposite direction at the moment.

[Elise Hu]

Well, what's so pernicious is this idea of, like, a child's health or optimal childhood or optimal pregnancy being framed as a matter of personal responsibility. Like, it's. You individually are responsible for having.

[Amanda Hess]

A.

[Elise Hu]

Quote unquote healthy child, which is also a loaded term. Right? And that I individually am responsible. And the end of your book, and everybody should definitely get this book. So I know we're talking about so many ideas and themes in it, but the end of your book gets into a lot of the parenting coaches who are selling subscription packs and things for millennial parents. And. And ultimately, you do have this line that struck me that drives it a conclusion which is how you believe there is such thing as a good parent. Can you define that for us?

[Amanda Hess]

Yeah, I mean, I was really thinking of. I so, like, wanted to avoid making any recommendation to any person as I was writing this book, because, like, if any. If anyone, like, came into my home and, like, saw the chaos, he would be like, this woman doesn't know anything about parenting. Like, I, like, barely. I'm just figuring out how to parent my kids. Like, really. And I don't know how. I don't know how any other person should parent their own kids, but I do think that we should all be parenting each other more. You know? Like, I really just think that the Thing that's missing for me, even as someone who like has all of the things that in America are supposed to like lift you out of this. Like, you know, I have a great job, I have, have a union job. I'm white, I have some extra money. I had more extra money before my kids were actually born, which is, I think how they really get you to invest in all of these prenatal technologies. But even so, I can't buy a society and I can't buy sufficient really medical system for myself and my family and my kids. And so there is just a limit to this American model of success, I think. And also it's just like no way to live. Like, I just, I can't stand. I think the thing that really bothers me when I see like all of this very hyper specific parenting advice content is just like how incapable we are as a society of like keeping all kids healthy and safe and making sure that they are clothed and housed and fed. Like we are failing so profoundly on that metric. And I really think that I do have this limited amount of time and energy and the extent to which I can try to manage my own family while trying to extend my family into my community and bringing those things together in some small way is just. Those are the only times when I really feel like I'm doing something right for my kids. And so for me, it's like there are. I'm so lucky to have had other community members set up various mutual aid things in my community that are really inclusive of kids. And it means that instead of trying to go volunteer somewhere where I don't have time to do that because I'm working during the day and I'm with my kids, like on the weekends, I can like cook food at night and have it be something where like I'm feeding my kids the same things that I'm then like bringing and just dropping off to like a different person later. Or I'm bringing my kids to like a distribution line where it's set up for there to be a kid zone for every kid who's there. I didn't set any of that stuff up. And I don't have like, I'm not currently at a point in my life where like I have the capacity to do such a thing. But it's really felt like the only time that I'm really doing something where I feel like a good. I don't want to say mom because it's so loaded, but I feel like a good parent when I'm doing that. And I Don't necessarily. Other times I just feel like parent. I'm just doing it. I'm just trying to do it as well as I can or just do the baseline, you know, which is hard enough, I think. So that's what it is for me. I don't know.

[Elise Hu]

But I love that. I love that, like, your idea of being a good parent is rooted in community care. Like, it's rooted in sort of caregiving for everybody and to care about all of the kids. And I love that.

[Amanda Hess]

And I mean, I really think it would have been great if I had come to this conclusion before I had children. Yeah, you would have been.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, you wouldn't have even had to have children.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, you could have just taken care of.

[Amanda Hess]

I mean, and that's the thing that I think is so just depressing about all of these kind of like fights between the child free and parents. And they're really, I think, fights over space and resources. And there's just not enough community sort of space for us that is like multi generational or whatever. And so I can understand, as someone who used to be them, how annoying it is when my kids come into a coffee shop and aren't like really loud and disruptive. But there's no, like, place that is sort of built for them unless it's like this glorified ball pit that cost me like $40 to bring them to, you know, but the truth is that, like, it's not just kids, it's not just parents who need access to that kind of thing. So, yeah, I think hopefully, you know, after my kids need less of my time and attention, I can try to become more engaged with my community. But yeah, it's definitely something that I discovered at the time when I had the least amount of bandwidth to do anything else.

[Dory Shafrier]

Amanda, I'm wondering just before we let you go, is there anything in tech or Internet culture right now that is giving you any sort of optimism or hope?

[Amanda Hess]

That's such a good question. I mean, I think there's a lot of resentment toward our tech overlords that I think is really actually amazing and productive because we should be hugely skeptical of these people. And I think we're now seeing just like the extent of. Of their power. There's no particular product that I can tech product that I can recommend, but I do think just the level of kind of tech literacy among my peers and also, like younger people is just. It's improved from like the time when I was first logging on, you know, and it was so. It felt so exciting and like, you know, Bill Clinton was talking about it like it was, you know, gonna be this.

[Elise Hu]

The bridge to the 2020 or whatever.

[Amanda Hess]

Exactly. Yeah. So I think like just this resistance, at least in our minds, is helpful. I wish AI wasn't in everything. You know, it's hard to avoid, but at least I can not like it, right?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Amanda Hess]

That's all I can do is just hate it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, Amanda, thank you so much for coming on to chat with us and talking about a wonderful book. Is there somewhere that people can find you and follow along with your work? Are you going on a book tour?

[Amanda Hess]

Yeah. So I will be doing an event in Brooklyn, one in dc, one in Boston, and one in Providence. So far I might be able to extend it a little bit. You can also find me on Instagram at astrumwalhess. One of the very depressing things about writing a book about technology is I have to be so logged on to promote it. It's just so crazy. But you can find me there. Please follow me. I also wanted to say that this. I'm so excited to be on this podcast because this is a book about being 35. It's a book about when I was 35 and I'm turning 40 this year. But it's. It's such an interesting time. Yeah, it was for me too, in a person's life, you know, so it's nice to be able to, to think about it a little bit. I'm excited about my 40s, though.

[Elise Hu]

You should be.

[Amanda Hess]

You should be. Yeah, I think it's gonna be great.

[Elise Hu]

Amanda Hess, thank you so much.

[Amanda Hess]

Thank you so much.

[Dory Shafrier]

Amanda was wonderful. She also. I think I sent this to you, Elise. She put out a book promo that was so funny and so well done. It was kind of like a send up of like a trad wife influencer, sort of.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

And she just.

[Elise Hu]

On her Instagram, right?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, it's on her Instagram. She does it so like deadpan and perfectly that at first you think she's serious and then it just gets more and more absurd and it was just, it was so genius. So her book is amazing. She's amazing. I've. I've been reading her stuff, as I think I said in the interview. I've been reading her stuff for same. So long, over a decade. So it was really nice to get to talk to her.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right. Intentions, intentions. Last week I was getting back on the strength training train. I have gotten back on.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, good.

[Dory Shafrier]

I did a. I did a strength workout yesterday. I, I also did one Last week and I think like, sort of like might have overdone it. Oh, no, because I also was like, I played like a lot of tennis last week. Like maybe a little too much tennis.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I feel like you did too. I feel like you were playing a lot of tennis last week.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, last week was like very tennis heavy. And I also did this like pretty intense arm workout. And so there was one morning where I was like, is my tennis elbow coming back? And I don't actually think my tennis elbow is coming back, but I think because I'd done like an intense arm workout and played tennis the night before that I then played tennis that morning and was like, oh, my arms are not feeling so great. So I need to like just like ease back into it, I think a little bit and not like push, like not, not go to my full capacity right away. You know what I mean? Yeah, Just take it a little easier.

[Elise Hu]

Ease in.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, ease in. Ease in. Well, so this week is my birthday.

[Elise Hu]

It's your birthday week.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's my birthday and I just want to like, you know, celebrate the fact that I'm a year older, not that much wiser, but I am, knock on wood. I'm healthy, I have my family. Things are good in that regard. Things are hard. But like, overall big picture, I think I'm doing okay. So just want to sort of like sit with the fact of turning a year older.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Evolve. Fantastic. Happy birthday. Happy birthday to Dor and the community. Definitely shower Dory with love for her birthday this week. My intention last week was regarding time management, which I did poorly because I got sick. I got like, I caught something and then I had an over scheduled weekend and it was a mess. So I don't, I don't know, I feel like if I put that goal back up on the board, it's not realistic during a travel week because this is a travel week for me to get better at my time management. So instead I want to do a more measurable small goal which is to use up my class pass credits.

[Dory Shafrier]

Ooh, okay.

[Elise Hu]

I have so many class, you know, I get like a certain number of class pass credits for my monthly membership. And unless I actually go to the classes, I'm not drawing down the bank. And then you can lose some because I think they, they don't roll over every month. So I really need to just go to the classes that I'm paying for with my monthly membership. So yeah, my intention is to go to some exercise classes, which I think is a doable, doable intention.

[Dory Shafrier]

I did class pass for a long time. And I. I took some great classes.

[Elise Hu]

And now you can use them on facials.

[Dory Shafrier]

What?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it's higher points, but if you get to the end of the month and they're not going to roll over, it's like, yeah, I'll use that on a facial or a treatment.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, Good to know.

[Elise Hu]

Shout out.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, shout out. All right, well, Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu. It's produced and edited by Sam Hunio, and Sammy Reed is our project manager. Our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone for listening. We'll talk to you soon.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, talk to you next time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bye.

[Amanda Hess]

Hey, Kristen, how's it tracking with Carvana Value Tracker?

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

What else?

[Amanda Hess]

Oh, it's tracking, in fact.

[Dory Shafrier]

Value surge alert.

[Amanda Hess]

Trucks up 2.5%, vans down 1.7, just as predicted.

[Dory Shafrier]

So we gonna.

[Amanda Hess]

I don't know. Could sell.

[Dory Shafrier]

Could hold the power to always know our car's worth. Exhilarating, isn't it?

[Amanda Hess]

Tracking Always know your car's worth with Carvana Value tracker.

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