Episode 353: What It Means to Feel Better with Arianna Rebolini

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 353: What It Means to Feel Better with Arianna Rebolini

Release Date: May 19, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In Episode 353 of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve deep into the complexities of mental health and societal influences on personal well-being with their guest, acclaimed writer Arianna Rebolini. The conversation is both heartfelt and insightful, offering listeners a profound exploration of what it means to genuinely feel better.

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Introducing Arianna Rebolini and Her Work

Timestamp: 17:19

Doree warmly welcomes Arianna Rebolini to the show, expressing excitement about her new book, Better. Elise adds, “It's been surreal. It's been very cool,” highlighting the anticipation surrounding Arianna’s latest publication.

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Arianna’s Journey with Depression and Her Memoir

Timestamp: 17:55

Arianna begins by providing a content warning for her book, Better, explaining that it tackles the heavy subject of suicide and its impact on families. She describes her book as a personal memoir that chronicles her struggles with suicidal thoughts and her journey towards recovery.

Notable Quote:

“The book is about suicide and kind of suicide's legacy in families and how she recovered from wanting to commit suicide.” – Arianna Rebolini (00:33)

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Understanding ‘Better’: Themes and Insights

Timestamp: 20:00

Arianna shares the genesis of her book, which began as a personal research project after a severe mental health breakdown in 2017. Initially motivated by a desire to understand suicide through the works of authors like Sylvia Plath and David Foster Wallace, her perspective shifted following her brother’s battle with depressive thoughts. This experience broadened the book’s scope to include societal issues and systemic factors contributing to mental health struggles.

Notable Quote:

“Seeing how theoretical ideas just fail in the face of someone who just really wants to die changed the course of the book.” – Arianna Rebolini (21:56)

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The Intersection of Poverty, Healthcare, and Mental Health

Timestamp: 30:28

Arianna emphasizes the critical link between poverty and higher suicide rates, citing global trends and specific observations during the COVID-19 pandemic. She argues that increased social welfare can mitigate these rates, as evidenced by the temporary reduction in suicide rates when welfare benefits were enhanced during the pandemic.

Notable Quote:

“Increasing social welfare...our survival is linked to our ability to work...we have to make work less linked to our actual survival in life.” – Arianna Rebolini (30:28)

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Critique of the American Healthcare System

Timestamp: 32:52

Arianna critiques the profit-driven nature of the American healthcare system, highlighting its inefficiencies and the inadequate support it provides for mental health care. She points out how health insurance complexities exacerbate financial instability, linking it directly to increased depression and suicide rates.

Notable Quote:

“Health insurance in America is just, you know, the worst...we pay more for our health care and we are the least healthy.” – Arianna Rebolini (33:49)

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Personal Reflections on Recovery and Societal Change

Timestamp: 36:19

Arianna discusses her personal evolution in understanding mental health, moving from viewing depression solely as an illness to recognizing the societal structures that influence it. This shift has empowered her to channel anger into activism and advocacy for systemic changes, making her journey towards recovery more holistic and hopeful.

Notable Quote:

“Seeing those other aspects of what makes a person suicidal made me really angry and then also energized.” – Arianna Rebolini (36:24)

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Practical Takeaways for Mental Well-Being

Timestamp: 37:59

When asked about strategies to feel better, Arianna recommends meditation and the practice of not over-analyzing one’s emotions. She acknowledges her own struggles with meditation but underscores its importance in managing thoughts and emotions without judgment.

Notable Quote:

“The best thing you can do is just...practice like feeling something and then just letting it slide.” – Arianna Rebolini (38:13)

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Book Recommendations and Personal Interests

Timestamp: 39:50

Closing the conversation, Arianna shares her latest reads, including Shane Terry’s Leave, which offers a raw account of postpartum experiences, and Jeannie Thornton’s ASL, a novel about teen game coders in the 80s. These recommendations reflect her appreciation for authentic, emotionally resonant storytelling.

Notable Quote:

“Jeannie Thornton... her novel ASL is about teen game coders in the 80s early Internet. It’s really fun... about friendship.” – Arianna Rebolini (42:07)

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Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: 43:25

As the episode wraps up, Arianna shares where listeners can follow her work, emphasizing her active presence on Instagram and her newsletter, Reading Habits. Doree and Elise express their gratitude for her candid and enlightening discussion, highlighting the shared experiences from their time at BuzzFeed.

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Conclusion

Episode 353 of Forever35 offers a compelling and comprehensive look into the multifaceted nature of mental health through Arianna Rebolini’s personal and professional lens. By intertwining her narrative with broader societal critiques, the episode provides listeners with both empathy and actionable insights into fostering genuine well-being.

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Notable Quotes Recap:

1. “The book is about suicide and kind of suicide's legacy in families and how she recovered from wanting to commit suicide.” – Arianna Rebolini (00:33)
2. “Seeing how theoretical ideas just fail in the face of someone who just really wants to die changed the course of the book.” – Arianna Rebolini (21:56)
3. “Increasing social welfare...our survival is linked to our ability to work...we have to make work less linked to our actual survival in life.” – Arianna Rebolini (30:28)
4. “Health insurance in America is just, you know, the worst...we pay more for our health care and we are the least healthy.” – Arianna Rebolini (33:49)
5. “Seeing those other aspects of what makes a person suicidal made me really angry and then also energized.” – Arianna Rebolini (36:24)
6. “The best thing you can do is just...practice like feeling something and then just letting it slide.” – Arianna Rebolini (38:13)
7. “Jeannie Thornton... her novel ASL is about teen game coders in the 80s early Internet. It’s really fun... about friendship.” – Arianna Rebolini (42:07)

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, focusing on meaningful discussions and key insights shared by Arianna Rebolini, while omitting advertisements and non-content segments as per the user’s request.

Transcript

[Dory Shafrier]

Race the rudders.

[Elise Hu]

Race the sails. Race the sails.

[Dory Shafrier]

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over.

[Elise Hu]

Roger, wait.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Is that an enterprise sales solution?

[Dory Shafrier]

Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.

[Ariana Rebellini]

You know, a lot of people hear LA or Los Angeles and think only of the celebrities here and the movies that are made here. But there's so much more to love about the city I call home now. From walk up windows and rooftop bars to year round al fresco dining, Los Angeles is a culinary thrill ride sure to leave visitors hungry for more tacos or sushi. Brazilian or Korean food from anywhere in the world can be found right here in la. And when you're done eating, there's shopping or there's hikes all around L. A. Or just get a taste for fame firsthand by attending a star ceremony on Hollywood Boulevard. Catch a glimpse behind the scenes at a world famous studio tour. Need a breather? Don't forget to stop in your tracks and look up. Soak in our legendary blue sky. That's the light that inspires directors around the world. We love LA. Find more ways to love LA@discover LA.com hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Ariana Rebellini]

We are indeed.

[Dory Shafrier]

And sunscreen.

[Ariana Rebellini]

And sunscreen. We want sunscreen. Sun's out. Buns out.

[Dory Shafrier]

Sun's out. Buns out. Sun's out. Guns out. It's sunny for longer times now. Like the days are longer. And this is one of my favorite times of the year. But it reminded us that we should probably be talking about sun protection. So we are in your inboxes with some of our favorite sun protection. If you already subscribe to the Forever35 newsletter, Dory, you're very good at sun protection.

[Ariana Rebellini]

You know what's so funny is one of my tennis teams that I'm a captain of is a weekday team. So they play during the week. And I went to, I didn't play this morning, but I went to their match and in like the team WhatsApp, one of them was like, thank you Dory for coming out all covered up to cheer us on.

[Dory Shafrier]

Dory looks like a beekeeper when she plays tennis.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah, I and I was interviewed by the Strategist about my tennis style. And I described my tennis style as beekeeper, because I think they were looking for, like, cute tennis clothes. And I was like, I don't look cute when I play. I'm just fully covered up. And I have. I also have this chair that I bring to watch matches that has like a canopy attached.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, wow.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

I hope you put that in the newsletter, Rex.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yes, I did put it in the newsletter, Rex.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm in the market for one.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Are you really?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, because of soccer. I'm in like, I'm now. I'm now I have a kid playing club soccer or travel ball, as they call it. And I'm. I'm in the sun a lot and I feel like I need to really up my. Up my sideline game.

[Ariana Rebellini]

I love this chair because it is also a rocking chair. Like, it rocks a little bit. It's really comfortable. And it has this canopy that like, blocks a lot of sun. So between my hat, my long sleeves, my long pants, and my canopy, I was like, pretty well covered.

[Dory Shafrier]

But crucial question, is the chair annoying to set up and take down?

[Ariana Rebellini]

It's not annoying.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay, good.

[Ariana Rebellini]

It just sort of like folds. Folds up, and then to undo it, you just sort of like push it open.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay. Okay, good. Cause I made that mistake with one of my recent new chair purchases where I'm like, oh, it'll be so lightweight and so, you know, convenient. And then I realized that it's one of those chairs that you have to.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Like negotiate, insert rods and stuff.

[Dory Shafrier]

You have to insert rods?

[Ariana Rebellini]

No, no rods for my chair. No rods must be inserted at any time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Dory's canopy chair.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yes, it is. If you don't subscribe to the newsletter, which you should, it is the GCI Outdoor pod rocker. Outdoor rocking chair with sunshade canopy.

[Dory Shafrier]

Pod rocker. I love pod rocker. Also a pod rocker. It's an.

[Ariana Rebellini]

It's a metaphor. It looks like it is $80. Okay, so it's not a cheap chair, but in my opinion, it is well worth it. Now they also sell a non rocking canopy chair, but I can't. I can't speak to those.

[Dory Shafrier]

I can't imagine if you had the choice, you would choose the non rocking.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Of course, like, a rocking is really comfortable, so.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my other tale of the great outdoors. This has nothing to do with sun protection, but it's sort of on topic of it's getting warmer and all the creatures are out and there's more flies flying buzzing about suddenly in my backyard. So the other night, maybe for the first time Ever? Yes. I think for the first time ever, my, my younger two girls. So the second and third girls decide that they are gonna be in cahoots and like be sister besties. Cause usually it's the oldest in the middle and then the third one is the odd one out. But this week the younger two decided they wanted to have a sleepover together in the back house. So we have an adu, an additional dwelling unit, as they call em in Southern California. It's not a phrase that I was used to having grown up in Texas. It's across the yard and the girls decided they wanted to sleep back there together. And I thought, I've never let them sleep back there together before. But it seems safe enough. You know, they're not going to be in the same structure as me, but just across the yard. And so I let them do it. And it's like lights out around 8. I don't hear anything from the back house. And around like 9:30. Oscar, who never barks, he has lots of problems, but barking is not one of them. Oscar starts barking at like 9:30. And I go outside and he's barking mysteriously up at the shared fence between my neighbor and me. And I have no idea why. I don't see anything that he's barking at. I feel like maybe he's gone mad. I have no idea. He's just like barking. And in all, nine months of his life and seven months that he's lived with us, he's barked maybe twice. So I have no idea what's going on. And I decide this is kind of spooky. I'm going to bring you in and crate you. I'm going to put you in your crate. Like Oscar's going down to bed. Because I don't really want to deal with the barking and I can't understand why. So I don't know what, what the deal is. Another hour and a half passes. It's about 11, so that's about my bedtime. And I. I had finished an episode of Apple TVs your friends and Neighbors. Everything was chill. Ava, who is in the main house, she's asleep. And I'm. I go back upstairs. Rob's not here, so it's just me and the girls. And I hear screeching, just like a high pitched squeal. It's like far enough away where I can't tell if it's Luna or if it's Isa, but I'm hearing some sort of squealing or screaming.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Oh no.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I'm like, oh no. Is it the Railway Killer? And at this point, if it is, isn't it too late for me to go back there?

[Ariana Rebellini]

Right. Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was, like, debating, do I go? Do I go?

[Elise Hu]

Oh, my God.

[Dory Shafrier]

So obviously, for the safety of my children, I decide to brave the outdoors and go outside to see what's going on. And I look at the back house and none of the lights have come on. So it's pitch black. I don't. I look through the. I can't see through the windows and the squealing has stopped. Like, once I'm in the backyard and I don't know what it is. I don't think it's luna, because if it were, wouldn't I continue to hear something? It would make sense if she was, like, still crying or lights had flipped on. Right. This is a weird mystery at this point. And I really.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

I really don't. I'm sort of flummoxed and not sure what to do. But then I look up at the roof of the ADU and there's two possums that are, like, scurrying around. They were in some sort of battle. And I'm just seeing the silhouette of these creatures.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Oh, no.

[Dory Shafrier]

In some sort of dance. I don't know if they're mating or. I don't. Or they were in some violent fight.

[Ariana Rebellini]

But those animal Oscar was barking at.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. So it all makes sense now because I didn't see what Oscar was barking at, but he was barking. And then the squealing, which kind of sounded like it could have been a child squealing, like, hard to say. Very high pitched. It must have been possums fighting or mating or. I don't know what was going on in their world, but I cannot believe that that noise is. And especially, like, these little feet that are running across the roof did not wake the children.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Wow.

[Dory Shafrier]

How did they sleep through that?

[Ariana Rebellini]

Wow.

[Dory Shafrier]

The next morning they come in and they're like, we heard Oscar barking.

[Elise Hu]

They didn't.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Oh, my God.

[Dory Shafrier]

They missed the whole drama in which I thought the Railway Killer came.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

But heard Oscar barking.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Amazing. Wow. Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yep.

[Ariana Rebellini]

I will, you know, I will say that possums, like, possums make bogo insane.

[Dory Shafrier]

Why?

[Ariana Rebellini]

I don't know. But there's, like, something about possums in particular that I think just, like, makes dogs go nuts. Because when he's some sort of, like.

[Dory Shafrier]

Enemies in a previous life.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah. I don't know. Like, at night we'll let him out in the yard because our yard is fenced and he Usually will, like, go outside, he'll pee. Like, maybe he'll, like, wander around for a couple minutes and then he'll come back in. But sometimes he's, like, on the hunt and he'll let him out the door and he just fucking bolts. And, like, like, runs to a spot. He'll be, like, jumping up into bushes. Like, we're like, oh, there's a possum. Like, that's what he. He's always hunting. Opossum.

[Dory Shafrier]

That explains Oscar's strange behavior. I thought Oscar had gone mad.

[Ariana Rebellini]

No, it's definitely the possum. There's something about possums that, like, truly makes dogs go insane. Wow. If you are listening and you know anything about this, what is it about possums in particular that makes dogs go completely bonkers? Thank you.

[Dory Shafrier]

What a night. What a night. All right, there's no good way. There's no good way to go from this story into our guest specifically, unfortunately. But we have a very good show for you today. A very enriching and deep and heartfelt conversation with the writer Ariana Rebellini.

[Ariana Rebellini]

I've known Ariana for a really long time, probably like 12 years, because we both worked at Buzzfeed, which we talk a little bit about on the show. Her new book is called Better. And I just want to give, like, a little bit of a content warning here because the book is about suicide and kind of suicide's legacy in families and how she recovered from wanting to commit suicide. So, you know, if this is a sensitive topic for you, this, you know, it might be one you want to skip. We don't really talk about it that much or go into, like, great and gory detail, but it is something that we touch on and that is what her book is about. So just want to, like, flag that. But otherwise. Ariana is a writer and editor, born and raised in New York. She was the books editor at BuzzFeed News, and her writing has been featured in the Atlantic, the Guardian, Esquire, Time, the Cut Vulture, among other places. She's a member of the National Book Critics Circle and she also is the author with Katie Haney of the book Public Relations. She lives in Queens, New York, with her hus, husband, son and two cats. And before we get to her, just a reminder, you can call or text us at 781-591-0390. Email us at forever35podcastgmail.com we also have the aforementioned newsletter at forever35podcast.com Newsletter and we are on Instagram at forever35podcast and also our patreon is at patreon.com forever35 where we do a lot of bonus content that's super fun. Um, so check that out and we will be right back with Ariana.

[Dory Shafrier]

We'll be right back.

[Ariana Rebellini]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Ariana Rebellini]

Ariana, welcome to Forever 35. It's so great to see you.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you. It's so great to see you both.

[Ariana Rebellini]

And congrats on the publication of your book. We're talking to you a week after it came out, so I hope you had a. You had a good first. First week of, of publication.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you. It's been surreal. It's been very cool.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Well, we start off by asking our guests about something they're doing these days to take care of themselves. So is there something you're doing right now that you would consider self care?

[Elise Hu]

That is a very good question and something that I am actively wondering because I'm in the post book. They call it like the. Almost like a postpartum depression. After the book comes out, I'm just spending a lot of time outside. I'm gardening. I would say gardening is something that I'm doing. We have a little tiny backyard in, in Queens and I have a little section of grass that I'm trying to bring flowers in and I just like getting my hands dirty. Getting dirt. Very Taurus, you know.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, you're both Taurus.

[Ariana Rebellini]

As a fellow Taurus, I relate to this.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. I like getting the dirt under my nails, you know.

[Dory Shafrier]

Love it, love it.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, let's get a bit into the book. The latest book is a highly personal memoir called Better. Um, it explores suicide, including your own history with wanting to die. So before we get into some of the larger themes of it, just. How are you doing? How's your morale? Give us a vibe check.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I'm doing well, actually. Yeah, I am. I. It's been such an interesting thing to work on this book for I guess almost eight years of the writing of it. Seven years. And it very clearly became its own. Like I talk about how suicide and like the tendency toward that is a kind of self destructive, like a coping method that isn't really helping me. And refusing to finish the book was becoming that it was a way to like stay in the headspace and kind of afraid to let it go the same way it mimicked the way I was afraid to let go of all those pretty destructive coping methods. And so I'm so glad that the book is out there, but I'm also glad that I'm done with it. I feel really good and I. I have a lot of support and I'm doing a better job of accepting support. So.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah, just to back up a little bit, can you just give our listeners sort of an overview of what the book is about? You mentioned in the, in the author's note, I think even the essay that sort of led to the book and I'd love for you to just kind of talk a little bit about that and give people sort of an idea of, of what the book is.

[Elise Hu]

In 2017, I had this sort of breakdown where I thought I was either going to kill myself or go to the hospital. And I went to the hospital. And while I was there, this followed a lifetime of ups and downs of dealing with depression and suicidal thinking. And in high school, well, I mentioned in the prologue I thought it had been high school when I had taken some pills and then going through my journals discovered it was much later. So at the hospital I decided, this is it, this is going to be my last, this is going to be my rock bottom. And I was in a really good relationship and I wanted to kind of get my life started for real. And, and so when I left, I was like, I want to have a kid, I want to get married, I want to have a real job. I am going to figure out like how to keep this better. And so it started as kind of like almost a research project, you know, Like I was like, I'm going to read all these books from writers who had killed themselves, Plath, Wolf, David Foster Wallace and look for patterns in the way they were thinking. And just, you know, I'm an English major. Like, I was like I just want to like dive in, you know, and analyze all this stuff. And I say in the book too, like, I don't know how, how deeply I believed in this, but I was committed to it. You know, I think I really liked the idea of this. It's like it's a project, because a project, I don't know, I didn't understand how to be good and healthy without outside of like some kind of work or some kind of project based thing.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And so that's how it began. But you know, about a year after I left the hospital, my brother was hospitalized for his own suicidal depression. And facing that, being on the other side of it, having read all this stuff and coming came up with these ideas about really heady things like, oh, we have to think about time differently and you have to think about, you know, these versions of yourselves differently. And seeing how theoretical ideas just fail in the face of someone who just really wants to die. It changed the course of the book. And so it became much more of a looking at societal issues overlaps with that and bigger questions about why do people actually want to die and what does it mean to be healthy and recovered from a history of suicide.

[Dory Shafrier]

And ultimately what did you find? How did doing all of this work and then living it, not only yourself, but also with your brother, how did it affect your own recovery and your understanding of recovery?

[Elise Hu]

Well, it's funny because I did have some moments where I was talking to my agent because we hadn't sold yet and I was like, I. How do I write a book where I, I'm like, actually I don't think a better exists, you know, like you can't just have a book that's like, oh, whoops, sorry, like no, you, if you have depression, that's it, you have it. My version of living a better life is not obsessing and fearing that return, but also focusing on the non psychological aspects and really focusing on the work of like, you know, how to make the world better. Because those external factors have as much weight as the psychological factors. And I think that that's something that people really have a hard time grappling with.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, you get into like the larger systems and the larger structures in all of this, which I think is really vital. This theme of doing more and being more productive or at least appearing externally successful and hitting certain milestones of adulthood. That's something I think a lot of us can relate to. And I'd love for you to just reflect on how it actually went for you to, to try and hustle your way out of feelings of despair or depression.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it was. It's brutal. I don't have the. I do not have the. The personality, the. The discipline. I'm not the type of person. Freelancing does not work well for me. And so the moment. The period of time that was immediately preceding the hospital, that was a period of depression that I was actively fighting by working. I was like, this just means I need more pitches to go out. I need to be more disciplined. I need to wake up early, and I need to do stretches. I really believed in systems to save me. And I do think that discipline and productivity have roles in mental wellness, but I was so fixated on them to my detriment. What would happen is I would set these goals for myself. I would fail them. And then instead of being like, okay, maybe I. I actually don't need to be this busy. Maybe I don't need to be producing this much. I would go the other way and be like, okay, I actually need to, like, really hunker down and do it even, like, more. I need to be more disciplined. And was just. And then would be shocked when I was even more depressed, you know?

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, and there's something so hyper individualistic about that.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's like, it's. It's a personal or moral failing on ourselves if we don't go harder.

[Elise Hu]

Absolutely. Yeah. And. And it's. It's. I think that there's. It's individualism, and I do think there's some kind of. There's a fear and there's hubris and this idea that, like, I know what I need to do to fix myself. I'm not going to ask for help, at least until I try everything. And then you're like, well, what's everything? You know, like, that means you'll never ask for help because there's always something else you can try. I know we. We have a society that encourages that kind of individualism and. And success like that, but it was not working.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Now, what was it like for you working at BuzzFeed? You know, two different times and, you know, did you feel like your depression was exacerbated by the specific. By your specific job at buzzfeed? Like, was there something about buzzfeed that was crazy? Making. This is kind of a leading question.

[Elise Hu]

Like, you seem to have a little knowledge about this. No, it's. So, it's. It's really sad when I think about BuzzFeed, because my first time there, and I started in 2013, so pretty early. And maybe the first two years. The most fun I have ever had at a job and probably will ever have. I left in 2017 to freelance and that didn't work. And then I came back in, I guess either. I think 2018 is when I came back to Buzzfeed to do the books editing position. And for a few reasons, that job was harder and more crazy. Making one of them not buzzfeed's fault was my. It aligned with my idea of like, this is my real life job. Like, I was on the news team, which is such a funny division that makes like really held no meaning to anyone outside of buzzfeed. But you probably remember there was a lot of like, you know, competition or not even just ego based things between.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

We called it buzzfeed.com versus buzzfeed news. And so I was like, well, this is highbrow. I'm BuzzFeed News. This is. I'm. I am. This has like the gravitas of the life I want going forward. And. And I think setting myself up for that being, making some kind of difference in my life was my own issue and setting myself up to be disappointed. It was just more and more of being asked to do these things.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

That were multiple jobs and then also always on the. The brink of always aware of layoffs happening, always afraid that was going to happen. And then, you know, and then I feel like the finale was once we got into the pandemic and just the coldness that overlapped with the news union, it was just a. That second tenure at Buzzfeed really allowed me to see a lot of the behind the scenes ugliness of how little management actually cared about us as humans. And it was. It was disheartening and it obviously made me very depressed, but it also made me really angry, which I think was important for me.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah, I have such complicated feelings about buzzfeed. Also as someone who, you know, was management and then wasn't management.

[Elise Hu]

And I mean, I was management too, for a while. So I. Yeah, I. I know I.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Related to a lot of. I related to a lot of what you said. Anyway, that's a whole other podcast.

[Elise Hu]

It should be one.

[Ariana Rebellini]

I know. Well, remember when everyone was making those why I left buzzfee?

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. You know what strikes me about a lot of these conversations and Ariana, you're not the only guest that we've had on who's touched on this is just like how our. How economic precariousness and our well being can really threaten our well being just as a society and how that's happened to an entire generation. And you write about this so well too. So I'm curious what you think, given what you've been researching, what needs to be happening at a structural or systemic level to help all of us because so many of our ambitions or our sense of security has been sacrificed at the altar of like these profit driven motives or profit driven entities over the last 10, 15 years especially.

[Elise Hu]

Well, so one of the most shocking things I found in researching. So first of all, globally, basically universally, poverty is linked to high, like higher poverty is linked to higher suicide rates. It's just, it's a fact. But when you talk about what can we do to help that during COVID in the United States, you know, you would think unemployment was up, we were all depressed and alone, and everyone thought that suicide was going to rise. But during the span of time where the financial welfare we were getting higher money, more, more money back than usual in welfare, suicide went down. People who relied on welfare benefits were actually getting more during that time because of COVID And so poverty rates went down and so did suicide rates even during that terrible time. And so I think that probably one of the most important things we could do is increase social welfare. I think that worrying about money and we have to work not only for survival, for money, but also for health insurance, all of these things are linked. Our survival is linked to our ability to work. And that is such an unhealthy and dangerous way to live. And so I think anything we can do as a society to make work less linked to our actual, just survival in life is important. And I really had a hard time with that. Especially, you know, I started meeting like communists and people who like had different ways of thinking in my 20s, like so many people do. And it just broke my brain. I was like, what do you mean you think someone can live without having a job? I was like, that is so dangerous and insane to me. And I think if you sit with it for a little bit, you can kind of get past those initial fears. And I just don't, I, I don't think that people would do nothing. And if someone wanted to do nothing, fine. But people like to work. People get meaning from work, especially in a situation where work is respectful and they feel good about the work they're doing. Yeah, I think we just have so much fear about living in a different way and having society work in a different way that we immediately are like, that can't be possible, you know, And I think it is possible and could be so much better.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Well, let's talk about the sort of like health insurance for profit centered health care morass that you sort of find yourself in. I mean, and it's starts from the very beginning of the book where you, you know, you're talking about the debt that you're in and part of it is because of the, the checks that are supposed to be for your therapist. And then also, you know, you, you talk a lot about not being able to find therapists who take insurance. And it just that it comes up a lot and like which hospital you're able to go to. And I'm just like wondering what you see as the connection between the sort of profit centered healthcare system and poverty and suicide. Like how, how are these sort of inextricably linked for people?

[Elise Hu]

Well, it's so interesting to me because health insurance in America is just, you know, the worst. Like the health system in America is just one of the worst in the wealthy world. We pay more for our health care and we are the least healthy. And this comes from one of the books that I referenced a lot that was really helpful is Deaths of Despair and the Future of Capitalism. So these are capitalists who are like, we believe in that. But also America does healthcare wrong in every possible way. So not only are they, when you have health insurance, they are failing you because they make it really difficult to get mental health care. So they, they basically kind of bully therapists, mental health care providers out of the system because they make their lives really difficult. They make it really difficult for providers to get claims approved. They keep them, they pay them very little. I mean, I could go for like hours and I barely understand how health insurance works. But basically they pay the doctors and, but they'll pay therapists much lower than they pay like a quote unquote medical doctor.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

So then those therapists end up not being in, you know, they don't take insurance and we're left doing reimbursements. It's a mess. And then on top of that, the system itself is the reason is one of the biggest reasons that we are in poverty, that people are struggling with money because health insurance that is linked to our work leads to lower wages because then employers have to pay for whatever they cover. Exactly. And we're also paying for insurance, like, and then also paying for deductibles and everything on top of that. And so it keeps us in higher levels of poverty or at least in financial, you know, like you said, precariousness. It's causing the. The conditions that lead to depression and suicide and then also failing to help you out of it, which is their job, is to help you, link you to mental health care, and it's failing on that level, too. So I think it's deeply connected.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. Yeah. You make the case that sometimes wanting to die is completely rational. If you have been in this cycle of either poverty or, you know, getting denied the health care that you need or your family members need.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dory Shafrier]

What changed for you once you saw things this way?

[Elise Hu]

I got. I got a lot angrier. It's funny, when I was younger, I. I think we're all. We were so scared, or at least I was so scared of anger. And I used to be like, yeah, I don't know. Like, I'm pretty chill. Like, I've never. I don't think I really get angry. You know, like, it's kind of this. I'm sure there's some kind of. In there, like some kind of internalized misogyny, too. I'm sure. But I think anger is so useful and really empowering and seeing these links and then seeing it as someone who had been told and believed for so long that this is an illness.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's.

[Elise Hu]

It's not you. You know, you just have to find the right meds and it's not. I absolutely believe that that is a factor. I'm not saying, like, go off your meds. Like, you know, like, I take meds and I. I'm in therapy, but it's multifaceted. And so seeing those other aspects of what makes a person suicidal made me really angry and then also energized. And I. I think that it also made me feel hopeful in that I think I see a lot of people being very angry. And these are things, you know, I mean, we don't really know. We're still figuring out the psychology of it, but we can change society like that. That's an easy change. I mean, quote, unquote easy. Like, it's a clear answer. It's a clearer thing.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And so being able to focus on that and. And focus on that work and figure out how I can do what I can do in my life to work towards those changes. While I'm also figuring out the psychology stuff for myself on the. In the background, it just made it less scary. It made depression less scary for me.

[Ariana Rebellini]

It seems like you've spent a lot of time kind of analyzing and exploring happiness and despair, and I'm wondering if you have any takeaways for the rest of us about just how to feel better.

[Elise Hu]

I think it's so funny and like, this is an answer that this is a question that I should prepare a better answer to. I never have a satisfying answer because it's so up and down. Yeah, I think the best thing you can do is meditate. Honestly, like work on, work on not analyzing your feelings and thoughts because I think we get into a place where we're trying to judge how happy we are, could we be happier? What's making me happy? How do I duplicate this, what's making me sad? All these things. And I, I really feel like we are prodding, if you prod your wellness to really see, like taking an idea of being like, am I, is it optimal? Am I optimizing my wellness? You're. You're gonna find something to be unhappy with. And so I think, you know, easier said than done. But I think the best thing you can do is just. And I'm terrible at meditating. I, I say that as if I do it like, like do it, Join me. I do it maybe like once a week. And I'm awful at it. Awful at it. But if you can practice like feeling something and then just letting it slide. If I feel like, oh God, if I feel that instinctive, like I, I'm still unlearning the, like suicide as any kind of reaction to any bad thing happening. Like, oh, I could do that. You know, it's like it's a knee jerk reaction. And not give that thought weight, to not give your thoughts weight, I think is really, really important.

[Ariana Rebellini]

You're not the first guest to bring up meditation.

[Elise Hu]

And I hate meditating. Like, I really, I'm not good at it, but I know it's important.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah, right, I know. And I'm always like, yeah, I should do that.

[Dory Shafrier]

It is great. It is great.

[Elise Hu]

It's great. And so hard.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, well, I mean, it's a, it's a discipline like everything else. I also think exercising every day is hard. So it's, it's that kind of idea. So before we let you go, Ariana, you're a big book lover and a former books editor. So I'm curious what you're reading. What have you read lately that you want to give a shout to?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I would love to shout out my friend Shane Terry, she has a book that just came out. It's a short book. It's unbelievable. It's called Leave. A postpartum account maybe. I think it's called Leave. And we were writing these books at the same time. We had just met. We did a nanny share. We were joined on Park Slope. Parents. Oh, wow. Yeah. They're like, you guys have babies coming out in July. And so we met up and we did a nanny share. And neither of us knowing what we were going through. And it's just about her. She suffered a. I think a third degree tear during labor. I don't know if that's like, meaningful to. It's. I knew nothing about it. It's awful. And she writes so frankly about what that meant to her, how she didn't know anything about this. It's the. My favorite blurb about it is like, this book pretends to be about birth, but it's actually about death. And it's. It's really good. It's really good. Beautiful writer.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Lighter and more fun. I'm reading a book right now that I like called Butter. And it's. I say lighter, but it's like, about a Japanese serial killer. But it's like, you know, it's like.

[Dory Shafrier]

A fake thriller death recommendation.

[Elise Hu]

See, like, I'm like, thrillers are fun, though. Okay. Yes. No, let me think about this. Okay. Jeff Weiss, his book was very fun recently. Finding Waiting for Britney Spears. And it's like a fictional. Yes, that one's. Especially if you lived through it, really good about this. It's like an autofiction. A tabloid writer named Jeff Weiss, but not Jeff Weiss, whose job becomes following Britney Spears. And it's a lot of energy. High energy. Oh, and I'm gonna do one more.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Because I just thought of it.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Jeannie Thornton. Because I'm like. Because that one could be depressing too. I read depressing books. This is like a problem. Jeannie Thornton. Maybe it's just Jean. And I apologize if I'm getting her name wrong. She has an amazing novel out right now called asl and she's a fantastic trans writer. She. Summer Fun was her first one. One of my favorite books of all time. And this is about teen game coders in like the 80s early Internet. And so it's really fun. Really good stuff about friendship. And if you love, like old school tech, that kind of stuff, it's. It's good.

[Dory Shafrier]

Fantastic. Thank you for those.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Ariana, where can our listeners find you if they want to follow along with your work?

[Elise Hu]

I am on Instagram. That's kind of where I'm most active, actually. So just arianarebellini. Back when I feel like underscores were a big thing for a while. And I have a very infrequent that I'M trying to get better at a newsletter called Reading Habits, and you can find that on my website@arianna rebollini.com. but those are the two main ways. Yeah.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Thank you so much. It was. It was really great to get to catch up with you and read your book, which I really loved. So thank you.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It was great to chat.

[Ariana Rebellini]

It's always fun for me to talk to people that I knew from buzzfeed because it was such a shared, like a weird, shared experience that we all had. You were all together at the same time?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah. So. And everyone has kind of gone on to do, like, really interesting, different things for sure.

[Elise Hu]

So.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah, it's just. It's just kind of cool.

[Dory Shafrier]

Intention time.

[Ariana Rebellini]

It is intention time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Elise, what was your intention last week? Remind me.

[Ariana Rebellini]

My intention last week was just sort of like, birthday stuff, and I actually feel like, thanks in large part to you, the. The, like, the birthday stuff is, like, feeling pretty good. You very kindly offered to throw me a birthday dinner, and then I was like, how about a party at your house?

[Dory Shafrier]

Happy to, but, you know, I'm like, great with trivia.

[Ariana Rebellini]

So called on my old friend Ari, who runs a company called Superscript Trivia, who's great. He will do trivia for you in person if you're in Los Angeles. And he'll also do trivia on Zoom, which we did with him a couple of times during the pandemic, and it was super fun. So Ari is coming to do some.

[Dory Shafrier]

Trivia, and I've been wanting to attend one of his trivia nights anyway because I missed your trivia night last time you had one. So, yes, I'm excited. I'm super excited.

[Ariana Rebellini]

As I said to Elise, we are going to see who my true friends are, because Elise lives on the west side.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Ariana Rebellini]

And if you know anything about Los Angeles, people who live on the east side, they don't willingly go to the west side very often.

[Dory Shafrier]

And vice versa.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Yeah, and vice versa. So we are going to see which of my friends is willing to make the trek to the west side. See, they don't. Nobody knows.

[Dory Shafrier]

Called out. Yeah. Now you called them out on the podcast.

[Ariana Rebellini]

They don't actually know that my birthday invite was. Was truly a friendship test. To be fair, I do have some west side friends, and if. If they don't show up, well, then they're dead to me. I'm just kidding. So I'm excited about that.

[Dory Shafrier]

What about this week?

[Ariana Rebellini]

I feel like this has been a periodic intention for A while. Like, it comes up every so often. But I now, I went through Henry's clothes recently, and I have a new pile of Henry's clothes to get rid of, and I need to just, like, get rid of them. So that will mean going through and seeing if there's anything. He is so hard on his clothes that, like, selling his old clothes gets kind of tough because they're all, like, stained. But I've had. I've had success giving them away on buy nothing by being like, hey, these are clothes for, like, your kid at preschool. Like, these are clothes for your kid to, like, get messy in. And there's always someone who's willing to take a bag of clothes. So that's great. I think that that will be what happens. Last week you were going to do something with class pass.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, that's right. I was going to actually use it and go to classes. I did. I did do it. Except the problem with not exercising for like a week and a half and then suddenly going really hard and taking like a very difficult, mega former class or something is that after you do it, you're sore for like two or three days. So then you're out of commission after that one class. So that happened to me. Now I'm in that cycle of, like, my glutes hurt because I had to fire those muscles totally.

[Ariana Rebellini]

This happened to me also.

[Dory Shafrier]

So here I am back at square one, not using enough of my class pass hours. I think class pass is nationwide, though, so I might be able to sneak into a class in New York because I do have some.

[Ariana Rebellini]

So, Elise, I used to do this back in the day when, like, I was a very early class pass user. And they used to have, like, ClassPass used to be the most amazing deal. Like, I think when they first launched, it was something like $50 a month for, like, unlimited classes. Like, people would take, like, they would take like five classes a day. Anyway, I had to go. That was also. That coincided with the period of my life where I was traveling to New York a lot for work. And I would always take class pass classes there. And in fact, I took a couple classes at the Peloton Studio, the old peloton Studio on 23rd Street. Because they were on class pass. Like, no one really knew what they were. Like, there would be like a hundred people, like, working out from home during the class. Like, it was. It was just like another spin studio like this. The classes weren't even full. And now those classes are still on my profile. So, like, if you look on my, like, If I go to my profile, I have like a few classes from 2015 with like Cody Rigsby because he always came stars this guy who taught spin. But yes, you can totally use class pass in New York and that was something that I used to do all the time and it was okay. It was a super great way to like work out while you were traveling. So I highly recommend that I'll set.

[Dory Shafrier]

That as my intention then try it exercise in New York.

[Ariana Rebellini]

Great. I love that. All right everybody, thank you so much for listening. Just a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our Project Manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks everyone for listening.

[Dory Shafrier]

Talk to you next next time.

[Ariana Rebellini]

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[Dory Shafrier]

Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.

[Ariana Rebellini]

And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.

[Elise Hu]

And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explains explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

[Dory Shafrier]

Each week on the podcast, Raj and.

[Ariana Rebellini]

I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a.

[Dory Shafrier]

Guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.

[Elise Hu]

And we're talking like legit credible experts, doctors, PhDs all around, superheroes from HuffPost.

[Ariana Rebellini]

And Acast Studios check out. Am I doing it Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts.