Episode 356: Anti-Budget Culture with Dana Miranda

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 356: Anti-Budget Culture with Dana Miranda

Release Date: June 9, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Dana Miranda, Author of You Don't Need a Budget

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Introduction

In Episode 356 of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve into the complexities of personal finance with their guest, Dana Miranda, the author of You Don't Need a Budget. This episode challenges the conventional wisdom surrounding budgeting and introduces an alternative approach to managing money with more ease and self-compassion.

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Self-Care Practices

The conversation begins with a discussion on self-care practices. Dana shares her current self-care ritual:

Dana Miranda [20:56]: "Something that I kind of pick up and put down throughout my life is that I'm picking up right now is playing my flute for fun. I am not good at it... it's just something that I'm like, this feels good to do and it makes me happy."

Elise adds her connection to music:

Elise Hu [21:36]: "I am also a former flautist."

This segment highlights the importance of engaging in activities purely for personal joy, free from the pressures of monetization or optimization.

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Origin Story

Dana delves into her personal journey with money:

Dana Miranda [23:31]: "Growing up in a working-class town, working in a working-class family... we just worked for money. And you needed money to get by day to day."

She explains how the lack of financial education and the pressures of living paycheck to paycheck shaped her early relationship with money. This background fueled her transition into personal finance journalism:

Dana Miranda [23:44]: "I just fell into personal finance as a niche as a freelance writer... I ended up really enjoying it. I really liked what I was learning in personal finance."

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The Idea of Anti-Budget Culture

Challenging the traditional approach to budgeting, Dana introduces the concept of "Anti-Budget Culture":

Dana Miranda [27:05]: "The budget is often the first step. And that's kind of the attitude of 'you need to budget.'"

She draws parallels to diet culture, emphasizing how both approaches can be restrictive and perpetuate a cycle of restriction and splurging:

Dana Miranda [28:23]: "We continue to put it on the individual... It's not a one size fits all thing. It tends to add stress to people's lives, just like dieting does."

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Intuitive Spending vs. Budgeting

Dana advocates for "intuitive spending" as an alternative to rigid budgeting:

Dana Miranda [29:33]: "I recommend people try something called intuitive spending... listening to yourself, buying what you want when you want."

This approach encourages flexibility and personal alignment with financial decisions, moving away from the constraints of predefined budgets.

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Money Map

To assist listeners in navigating their finances without traditional budgets, Dana introduces the Money Map:

Dana Miranda [37:37]: "The basic idea of a money map is just getting the lay of the land, of your finances to help you make financial choices."

The Money Map involves:

1. Listing Income and Resources: Including community resources, debt resources, and credit.
2. Identifying Financial Commitments: Viewing bills as commitments that can be negotiated or adjusted.
3. Setting Financial Goals: Such as saving for a comfort fund or future opportunities.
4. Creating a 'Yes Fund': A safe-to-spend fund without restrictive buckets.

This tool provides a comprehensive overview, allowing for informed and intuitive financial decisions.

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Addressing Impulse Control Issues

Dana addresses concerns about intuitive spending, particularly for individuals with impulse control challenges:

Dana Miranda [34:28]: "I can push back on that really hard... People can trust themselves to do what's right for them if they can quiet all of the noise that's outside of us."

She emphasizes the importance of mindfulness and understanding one's financial landscape to mitigate impulsive decisions, advocating for a holistic approach that integrates psychological well-being with financial management.

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Financial Education and Systemic Issues

Dana critiques the current state of financial education, highlighting its limitations:

Dana Miranda [44:02]: "But it still can't be balanced if you don't have enough money."

She points out that financial education often overlooks systemic barriers and assumes a level of financial stability that many do not possess. Dana calls for education that encompasses:

• Understanding financial systems and capitalism.
• Recognizing systemic inequalities.
• Providing practical survival strategies beyond individualistic solutions.

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Listener Questions

A listener shares their paradoxical relationship with money despite financial stability:

Listener [49:35]: "I have both worked hard and been incredibly lucky... I'M incredibly stressed about money at all times."

Dana responds by acknowledging the lingering stress from past financial hardships and the pervasive pressure of living under capitalism. She advises:

Dana Miranda [50:18]: "Start with those personal mindfulness practices and self-care... recognize if you're feeling financial stress... give yourself some grace."

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Practical Tools from Dana Miranda

Dana offers actionable strategies for managing finances with grace:

1. Mindfulness Practices: Journaling, meditation, walks to process thoughts and emotions related to money.
2. Money Map: As previously discussed, to gain a clear understanding of one's financial situation.
3. Filtering Financial Advice: Distinguishing between restrictive budget culture advice and useful financial information.

Dana Miranda [53:07]: "Start with those personal mindfulness practices and self-care... Use the money map to understand what's going on with your money."

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with hosts expressing their appreciation for Dana's insights:

Doree Shafrir [56:38]: "Thank you so much, Dana. And now we enter the intention zone."

Dana provides her resources for further engagement:

Dana Miranda [56:27]: "The best place to follow me is through my newsletter, Healthy Rich. And you can learn more about the book at youdonotneedabudget.com."

The hosts conclude by reflecting on the value of Dana's approach, acknowledging the challenges of navigating personal finance without succumbing to budget culture.

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Key Takeaways

• Challenge Traditional Budgeting: Traditional budgets can be restrictive and perpetuate stress, similar to diet culture.
• Embrace Intuitive Spending: Align financial decisions with personal needs and desires without rigid constraints.
• Utilize Tools like Money Maps: Gain a comprehensive understanding of your financial landscape to make informed decisions.
• Acknowledge Systemic Barriers: Financial education must address broader systemic issues, not just individual behaviors.
• Prioritize Self-Care: Incorporate mindfulness and self-compassion into your financial management practices.

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Further Resources

• Dana Miranda's Newsletter: Healthy Rich (available on Substack or at healthyrich.co)
• Book: You Don't Need a Budget (youdonotneedabudget.com)

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements and non-content segments to focus solely on the valuable discussions surrounding anti-budget culture and intuitive financial management.

Transcript

[Dory Shafrier]

Hey listeners and fellow beauty lovers. It's Dory Shafrier and Elise Hu from Forever 35. And on our show we spend a lot of time talking about beauty news, products and treatments. But we also know that one of the real secrets to beauty is feeling as good on the inside as you do on the outside.

[Elise Hu]

Absolutely.

[Dory Shafrier]

And that's why we're excited to tell you about a new podcast from Jonathan Van Ness. You probably know them best as the beauty and grooming expert from Queer Eye. But on their podcast, Getting Better, they're exploring ways we can all become more confident, happy, productive and invigorated. In other words, just a little bit better. Jonathan has been publishing their podcast Getting Curious for years, but this past March, their podcast relaunched as Getting Better. Now the show is focusing more on personal growth and wellness and they're speaking to guests like Dan Harris, Gretchen Rubin, and Dr. Wendy Suzuki. So, you know, just a few of the greats. Getting Better is available now. Wherever you get your podcasts, give it a listen. You know, I love linen in the summer, but I don't always love linen prices, except when I'm shopping at quint. They have 100% European linen shorts and dresses from just $30. And they also have amazing summery organic cotton items. I got my hands on their 100% organic cotton poplin pintuck maxi skirt. That is amazing. I'm going to be living in this skirt all summer. It is super high quality. It feels just like some much more expensive, very similar skirts. But in general, their clothes are just timeless, lightweight and far more elevated than anything else at this price. And it finally feels like my wardrobe matches my standards. Speaking of standards, quite Quince doesn't sacrifice safety or ethics for price. They only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. Give your summer closet an upgrade with Quince. Go to Quince.com Forever35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com Quince Forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com Forever35 hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dorie Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

And this is Money Month. This is our Second episode of our themed month of money and personal finance related content. So today we have Dana Miranda, the author of the book you don't need a Budget, and we will introduce her in a few minutes. Before we do that, we're just gonna. We're gonna catch up a little bit like we usually do, and we have.

[Elise Hu]

A lot to catch up on because we just saw each other. Well, Kate had her book event, so Dorian, Kate actually just in person recently, and then Dory. Kate and I were all together for Dory's trivia birthday last weekend, where you can hire a trivia caller to your private party. It can be a baby shower. It can be a birthday party. It can be anything. It turns out it could be a wedding. You could have. You could have a trivia caller at your wedding.

[Dory Shafrier]

Trivia wedding sounds pretty fun.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah, I actually, I had a. I had a friend who did that, except the. The bride and groom did the calling, and they did, like, more. They did general categories, but then they also did categories about them. So it was like, how well do you know the bride and dad?

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, that's. That's like a classic, like, bachelorette party game. Like the new. It's like the Newlywed game.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

You don't want to get caught not knowing enough stuff about your friends, but they made it easy, so it was good. This trivia caller for Dory's birthday party was. I thought a lot of the questions were actually quite tricky. Like, there was a round in which we had to listen the elements of the periodic table that had five letters or less.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was like, ari, are you serious? He often, though. He often does a last round that is like that where you have to, like, list a bunch of things. Like, I think one time, I remember it was something like all the countries that start with the letter J or something like that. You know what I mean? It's always something like that. And whichever team is able to list the most gets the most points. But yeah, this is. This is a guy who used to work with my husband, with Matt, on a TV show called the Goldbergs. Ari was the script supervisor. So, you know, very detail oriented job. And he started doing trivia on the side just, like, for fun, because I think he did it at bars. And then he just, like, started his own company. So we had actually had him at our house pre Covid to do a trivia night that was super fun. And then when Covid started, he started doing trivia on Zoom, and we did a couple of Zoom trivia parties, which were Actually, really fun. Like, more fun than you would think, because you. You would, like, go into private rooms with. On Zoom. Like, with your team.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yeah, with your team.

[Dory Shafrier]

Remember those? And, like, talk about the. The questions. And then you would all come back. And so it.

[Dana Miranda]

Um.

[Dory Shafrier]

And yeah. And so we have another friend who used to work with them on the Goldbergs, Nicole, who every year has an. She has an annual trivia holiday party with Ari. And for the last couple years, we've had Ari come do trivia for my birthday. And this year, I cajoled Elise into hosting my party, which was so nice in her beautiful backyard. The string lights were perfect. Oh, string lights looked amazing.

[Elise Hu]

Because my string lights had broken. That's right. We talked about this. Rutilio messed up.

[Dory Shafrier]

My string lights were popping.

[Elise Hu]

No, I messed up my strings, string lights. And then I needed to call Rotillo.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, exactly. And, yeah, you had all this great food. It was just so lovely. And the other thing about Ari's trivia is the teams are random. So he goes around with this little bag with, like, different colored gems, and you pick. You all pick gems to see which team you're gonna be on. So people usually end up on a team where. Because, like, my friends, like, not all my friends are friends with each other. So I think a lot of them know each other, especially from, like, previous parties. But, like, you're always. You're usually with people you don't necessarily, like, know super well. So it's always fun, I think, to sort of see the weird, random knowledge that people have that you just don't know about.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. And also, it's a way for your friends to become friends. Totally. Because you really bond with your trivia team.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And then you get competitive together and all those things.

[Dory Shafrier]

One of Elise's friends ended up on my team.

[Dana Miranda]

And he's so funny.

[Dory Shafrier]

He was great. He was so fun. And I think at first was like, well, what have I gotten myself into? I'm sitting here with four strangers.

[Elise Hu]

He is the perfect person at any party to, like, just roll with it. And in fact, we met at a party. So I had invited my friend Sam. Cause I hadn't seen him in forever. And he had texted me, I guess, maybe the week before, like, when are we ever gonna see each other again? I don't think I had seen him since maybe the holiday party circuit. And I was like, well, why don't you just come over this week? You know, I'm having people over. And Dory, as you know, you did not have to cajole me into hosting a party. Like, any excuse to host a party. I'm like, great, come on down. I think I had hosted a party like three days before that, you know, for Memorial Day. And then just yesterday I was like, oh, who are we gonna have over? You know? So I love it. I'm really thrilled to do it. I was glad to meet a lot of your friends and become closer with some of them who were teamed up with me on the other end of the yard. But yeah, Sam was really funny. He knows nothing about really most topics, but said that he knew stuff about space because he's a lobbyist for some space organization. So we're like, oh, great. Well, maybe you'll come in handy.

[Dory Shafrier]

There was one question about planets, like the moon. A moon. And he was like, I have no idea. We were like, sam, this is your one thing that you said you knew about. You said you knew about space.

[Dana Miranda]

He was like, sorry.

[Elise Hu]

There was a round of just all clips from Broadway musicals. And I would have been destroyed by that because, I mean, I guess I would have known, like, the main ones, but some of them that, like, I just haven't seen or I don't remember. Like, I didn't remember Rent at all because Rent was like late 90s. All the theater kids were super into it. And then I never saw it. But I was on a team with your friend Danielle, who, like, loves a musical.

[Dory Shafrier]

She sure does.

[Elise Hu]

That was. That was her round to shine.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dana Miranda]

She.

[Dory Shafrier]

She gave me a look from across the room that was like, you're going down. I will say we got. We got almost all of them on that round. There was one we missed, but I knew more of those than I thought I would, partly because I did do Broadway dance class. And there were a couple songs like the Good Morning Baltimore was always a warm up song. So I knew that song very well. And there were a few others. Zan got the Rent one immediately, like, within, like, one note being played. She was like, this is Rent. She also knew. There was a round of applause, a picture round of celebrities who have the same birthday as me.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

And she got the, like, the. The guy. The guy who was like a kid at the end. Do you remember that one?

[Elise Hu]

I remember he was the kid in love, actually.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, exactly.

[Elise Hu]

And she knew the sweet blonde boy in love, actually. Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

She knew immediately his full name. We were like, great.

[Elise Hu]

There was one that was Mayor Winningham, but we thought it was somebody else. And so we were tripped up by some of those because it was like.

[Dory Shafrier]

Some of them were tricky.

[Elise Hu]

They were. Yeah. It was like former Brat Pack members, but more of the out. Outer ring of the Brat Pack.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right. Totally.

[Elise Hu]

And so. But I. I thought that you would really kill that round because it was pe. People that you share a birthday with. And, like, I know a lot of my birthday twins. Like my. Like, I share a birthday with randos like Hal Holbrook, RIP but also Laura Ingalls Wilder. And that would have been a really.

[Dory Shafrier]

Funny one to put on.

[Elise Hu]

Right, Exactly. Because what does she look like? I don't know. I know her books. Which ones on there did you already know? Shared a birthday with you.

[Dory Shafrier]

I knew Janet Jackson, Tori Spelling and Megan Fox.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

I did not know I share a birthday with Tucker Carlson or Liberace. I did not know David Borean as.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

I don't think he's a bones guy.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

No. Or Buffy.

[Dory Shafrier]

Buffy. Buffy. Buffy.

[Elise Hu]

Buffy. Buffy.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. Who else was, like, random that I didn't. Well, I didn't know Mayor Winning.

[Elise Hu]

Winning. Him. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thomas Brody Sangster. That's his name.

[Elise Hu]

The little kid.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, the love actually guy.

[Elise Hu]

We were able to bring that back around. Good. Because we probably. There was some listener that was like, who is that kid? And then it became a thing for the last 90 seconds. But that's his name.

[Dory Shafrier]

I mean, I'm looking through. Oh, Melanie Lynskey. I did not know I shared a birthday with her.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, she's sweet.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm now looking through this list, and there's, like, many other people who I would not have recognized. So I'm glad he kept them, like, somewhat. Somewhat mainstream. All right, Elise, should we. Should we get to our guest?

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Really excited to get to our guest, Dana Miranda. She is a personal finance author and journalist and a certified educator in personal finance. She's been writing about personal finance as a staffer, freelancer, author, and creator since 2015. So for the past 10 years, she shares her innovative budget free approach, which recognizes the way financial education fails to meet the needs of marginalized folks and shifts the conversation toward a better relationship with money for everyone. So she is the author of a new book called you don't need a Budget and the creator of Healthy Rich, a newsletter about how capitalism impacts the ways we think, teach, and talk about money. She's the expert behind the nationally syndicated Dear Penny financial advice column, and she's a contributor to Business Insider, Fortune, Salon, and more. But like I said, her book is you don't need a Budget. And her whole argument makes a lot of sense. If you think about it, but it is gonna sound a little radical.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's gonna sound provocative and radical. So I just want to, like, prepare you. And, you know, I think you don't have to agree with what she says, but I would say, like, go into it with an open mind and maybe if you don't agree with everything she says, maybe there's something she says that you can like, take something from. Yeah, I know. She really, like, encouraged me to sort of shift some of my thinking and just like examine things from a different lens. So I think that's like, I think that's the way to sort of go into it.

[Elise Hu]

And that's the way we thought about it too. Right? That's the way we thought about it when we were programming this month. Like, we didn't want to just have four people to help you with your retirement planning.

[Dory Shafrier]

Totally. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

We wanted this to be a wide ranging month where we thought about money in different ways and had practical tips towards the end in which you're going to have some of your finance questions answered. So those questions and answers are still coming later this month. But yeah, there's going to be a lot of diversity in our guests and we're excited for that.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. All right, before we get to Dana, just a reminder that Our website is forever35podcast.com We've links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are also on Instagram @forever35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com forever35. And just a reminder, if you want ad free episodes, you can get Those at the $10 level or above. Our favorite products are at shopmy us/forever35. And our newsletter is at forever35podcast.com Newsletter also please call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and now we will take a break.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be right back with Dana Miranda.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, I love linen in the summer, but I don't always love linen prices except when I'm shopping at quint. They have 100% European linen shorts and dresses from just $30. And they also have amazing summery organic cotton items. I got my hands on their 100% organic cotton poplin pintuck maxi skirt. That is amazing. I'm going to be living in this skirt all summer. It is super high quality. It feels just like some much more expensive, very similar skirts. But in general, their clothes are just timeless, lightweight and far more elevated than anything else at this price. And it finally feels like my wardrobe matches my standards. Speaking of standards, Quince doesn't sacrifice safety or ethics for price. They only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quint gives you luxury without the markup. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quint. Go to quinte.com forever35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com forever35 I love a picnic in.

[Elise Hu]

The spring and the summer, but I always kind of feel like I have to pick up all that pre made stuff from the grocery store which gets really expensive because I don't have leftovers around. Or should I say I don't have leftovers I want to eat. But since I've been using hellofresh that is no longer the case. HelloFresh makes it easier to fit quick home cooked meals into your schedule every week by curating delicious recipes like Pasta Primavera, Chicken Dijon Pecan Crusted Trout plus tons of seasonal snacks, sides and treats. I recently just made the Chicken and Bacon Ranch Pasta Bake from Hellofresh and and the whole family loved it. Yeah, my parents were over and I couldn't believe how much it yielded. Like there were suddenly what, seven of us to feed and it comfortably fed all of us. Plus there were leftovers.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

So really delicious recipe. Excellent deal all around and without compromising on taste, health or homemade quality. HelloFresh has new ready made meals that offer chef crafted flavorful dishes that are ready in just three minutes so you can dig in and get outside to that picn. Every hellofresh meal uses high quality ingredients including seasonal fresh produce and proteins that travel from the farm to your doorstep. Feel great with meals that fit your spring schedule and make the season even more delicious. Go to hellofresh.com forever35 10fm now to get 10 free meals with a free item for life, one per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan.

[Dory Shafrier]

Elise have you ever sat down with your dad or like someone you've known and loved a long time and you say something like do you want to sip on my root beer? And to your shock and surprise they say no thank you, I don't like root beer. And you're like huh?

[Elise Hu]

You didn't know that? Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. How Did I not know that? Well, it turns out there's a lot about our lives that doesn't always just come up in conversations. Which is why I recommend Story Worth Memoirs to help you collect those little stories that make up your dad, mom, aunt, whoever. Each week Storyworth emails one memory provoking question that you get to help pick. These are questions like did you ever get in trouble in school? Or what were your favorite toys as a child? Then your loved one responds to that email with a story either written over email or recorded over the phone for Storyworth to transcribe. After a year, Storyworth puts all your loved ones stories and photos into a beautiful keepsake hardcover book. Photos are printed in vibrant color. The books are truly gorgeous. These are going to be treasures you'll be able to share and revisit for generations. Give the dads broadly defined in your life a unique, heartfelt gift you'll all cherish for years. Storyworth right now save $15 during their Father's Day sale when you go to storyworth.comforever35 that's storyworth.comforever35 to save $15 on your order.

[D]

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[Dory Shafrier]

Dana, welcome to Forever 35. We're so happy to have you on the show.

[Dana Miranda]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. So we start off by asking all of our guests about a self care practice that they have. So is there something that you're doing right now that you would kind of consider taking care of yourself?

[Dana Miranda]

Something that I kind of pick up and put down throughout my life is that I'm picking up right now is playing my flute for fun. I am. I'm not good at it. I played through high school and I had. So I haven't had any kind of training or anything or playing with a group in like 20 years. But it, I've kept the flute and every once in a while I pick up music and just play with it and it's probably the only thing in my life that I do that I don't think of some way to like monetize it or systematize it or whatever. Optimize in some kind of way. It's just something that I'm like, this feels good to do and it makes me happy.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, that's lovely.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

I am also a former flautist. I guess I didn't know that.

[Dana Miranda]

Yes, well, I think once a flautist, always.

[Elise Hu]

I also played the piccolo briefly for a band performance. But my flutes, I had two flutes, and they were from high school. Like, one was from junior high and the other one was from high school. And they were both stolen in a burglary in Waco, Texas.

[Dana Miranda]

Oh, my goodness.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. So I don't have a flute to play. Maybe I should just go rent one and enjoy or just even experiment with whether I can still play a flute. And I remember the fingering and all of that.

[Dana Miranda]

Right. It's fun to. It's kind of amazing how, like, I can put it down for a really long time and still pick it up and just like zip through a B flat scale. Like, you know, just kind of muscle memory. So I do have to look up fingerings every once in a while.

[Elise Hu]

Challenge acceptance.

[Dana Miranda]

There are a lot of things that are still there.

[Elise Hu]

Love that. Love that. Okay, well, let's turn to. Let's turn to the book, which is called you don't need a Budget. Before we get into the argument, what is your own origin story when it comes to your relationship with money?

[Dana Miranda]

My relationship with money is really based on growing up in a working class town, in a working class family. Working where we didn't basically get a financial education. And that was also growing up in the 90s where we weren't getting financial education in school and our parents didn't not talk about money, but they didn't give a financial education in the way that, like, they just didn't know how a lot of products work and they didn't know how our financial systems work because we basically just worked for money. And you needed money to get by day to day. And that was. That was the main lesson. It was just stay out of debt because that is just living beyond your means and we can't do that.

[Elise Hu]

And this then drove you to become a personal finance journalist. Like, how did connect connect? Going from not knowing much and not having a financial education to doing it for a living.

[Dana Miranda]

I just fell into personal finance as a niche as a freelance writer. Thought personal finance would be really boring because I didn' know anything about it and I hated talking about money. I was trying to be a writer to Be creative and artistic. And so I committed to doing it just to kind of get the experience as a writer and, and be with the people that I respected. But I ended up really enjoying it. I really liked what I was learning in personal finance. It was all of that stuff that kind of growing up in that environment had always been presented as like, not for me or for people like me. Talking about investment products and how to manipulate different debt products to make them work in your life and how to use different financial products and things as simple as like bank accounts. It was also a really kind of exciting time that financial technology and apps were really exploding. And so I was learning about a lot of money management apps and banking apps and investment apps and things that were really kind of changing how we interact with money too. So it was really cool to be. To start to learn about that stuff and learn how money can kind of fit into people's lives in different ways.

[Dory Shafrier]

Can you talk a little bit about how all of this knowledge and experience led you to this idea that you don't need a budget?

[Dana Miranda]

Well, I was broke for four years as an adult. Like as a freelancer was like completely broke. And I grew up working class too. And so my. I had a family that kind of lived paycheck to paycheck for a long time. And I was looking at all this advice that we were sharing and realized like, none of this would have really been useful because we just didn't have enough money. Like, that was kind of the main issue. I got my finances in order throughout the course of being in that job, but I didn't really follow any of those tactics that I was learning about and writing about and teaching to other people. I really was just making more money. And that was what gave me access to like improving my credit score and being able to shop with a credit card and to start to make more intentional financial decisions because I just had money to work with. And that really was the thing. So that really started to get me to kind of question, like, who is writing this advice? Who is it being written for? What are the assumptions that we're making about our readers? And then I started freelancing again. I left that full time job in freelancing in the personal finance space and realized everyone was doing that same thing. You know, everyone I was writing for was kind of sharing that same kind of advice. It was all coming from this place of. It was mostly kind of coming from middle class, mostly white men. And so there was a very specific perspective and a very kind of set of financial Access and privilege that people had, that they were assuming was available to the people that were reading their advice. And I wanted to, you know, expand from. From that and talk about money in a different way and talk to the people who that advice was not working for. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

So you, you're. The title of the book is you don't need a budget. There. This is kind of in response or an antidote to an entire school of thought. And a. That was started by this idea of you, or I guess it's a. Is it like a financial course or a financial guru whose whole brand is you need a budget.

[Dana Miranda]

There is a brand. Yeah, it's. I'm not specifically countering that, but the, the name is a play on that for sure. But the idea is countering all of that kind of cultural approach to money that I see, which I call budget culture, which is kind of a parallel to diet culture, which I think people tend to be a lot more familiar with, the way that we restrict the food that we're allowed to eat, the way that we restrict our bodies, rather than kind of listening to what our bodies need. And I see the same thing happening in budget culture in our approach to money, which is to take this individualistic approach to look at any kind of financial challenges that somebody is having, assume that it is the result of their individual choices, and then to prescribe individual actions that they can take to fix it. And that usually starts with restriction, which is where the budget comes in. The budget is often the first step. And that's kind of the attitude of you need a budget. Whether we're talking about the brand explicitly or just the kind of attitude in our culture that the approach is, what you need to do first is to look at what you're doing, figure out what about it is wrong, and figure out what you can reign in.

[Elise Hu]

Well, and just like diet culture, if you fail and you are continuing and you remain financially stressed, then somehow it's your moral failing or your personal failing.

[Dana Miranda]

Right, Exactly. Yeah. We continue to put it on the individual. And just like diets, there is research and tons of anecdotal evidence and everybody's experience to show that budgeting also doesn't work. It doesn't really reduce your financial stress. It doesn't help people meet financial goals, certainly across the board. Right. It's not a one size fits all thing. It tends to add stress to people's lives, just like dieting does. And it tends to be unsustainable because it's restrictive. So in the same way as with diets, People will ultimately fail at a budget and then consider that a personal failing and then try maybe the next budgeting method and try something new and continue to try to try to find some set of rules that will actually help them meet their goals, rather than looking at what's happening around them systemically that put them in the position they're in in the first place.

[Elise Hu]

So if we don't use a budget or a budgeting method, what should we be using instead? Or what should we do instead?

[Dana Miranda]

So I take this from anti diet kind of activism and journalism as well, where people talk about intuitive eating. So instead of looking to an outside set of rules, like a restrictive diet, you're listening to your body and eating. This is a very kind of basic distillation of the idea, but eating what you want, when you want, right? And I say the same thing with getting rid of a budget. So I recommend people try something called intuitive spending. And there's not a method to it. There's not like a set of rules to it. It is just like listening to yourself, listening to your body, buying what you want when you want, rather than setting restrictions on the categories that you can spend or restrictions on how much you can spend in a day or a week or a month, using money in the way that you need to to support the life that you want today.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

[Dory Shafrier]

In one of the first chapters of your book, you kind of go through these, like, multiple, I guess, like, I don't know, reasons for why you don't need a budget. And a few of them were, like, pretty surprising to me, like, you don't need to pay your bills. And I was wondering if you could kind of unpack some of those things that people reading might be like, Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Dana Miranda]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's a step too far, right?

[Dana Miranda]

Yeah. So I set the book up as kind of a counter argument and breaking down these tenets of budget culture, things that we assume are true about money and finding the counter argument for them. Right? Because it starts with, you don't need a budget. So if budgeting doesn't work, you don't need a budget. What is the argument for that and what do we do instead? So then I talk about, you don't have to pay all of your bills, you don't have to pay off debt, you don't need an investment account. You don't have to work so hard, you don't have to earn a living. So I'm breaking down these things that seem like they're things we sort of just take for granted in our culture of a bill comes in and you have to pay it. And of course, there is sort of a rule to that. There's a deadline, there's a consequence to not paying a bill. But anyone who has ever lived paycheck to paycheck or been strapped for money, been broke knows that there's more to that story, because sometimes you can't pay that bill. And so you have to figure out what to do. Right? So you have to decide what happens if I don't pay this bill, and is that a consequence that I can live with? What can I do to live with that consequence in my life? So maybe it's something like my electricity gets turned off. And if it's the middle of winter, I probably want to really fight hard against making that happen. So that's going to be a high priority. But maybe if it's like April or May, it's this kind of weather, maybe that's not as bad because I can live with that for a day until I get my finances sorted out. Like, there's different things that you can kind of work around. Certainly, like debt bills are something that's a little bit. There's a lot more probably leeway there because it doesn't have that immediate, like, you're going to have your house taken away, you're going to have your electricity turned off kind of thing. But there's also just things to know about those consequences, too. Like in Wisconsin, and I know in a lot of states we have laws where, like, your power can't be turned off between November and April because people could freeze to death if they don't have access to, like, heat in their home. Right. And so that is something that you can take into consideration when, you know, if maybe you make more money in the summer months because you work as a contractor, right? Like, you can pay that bill when it comes in April, or you can set up a payment plan with your provider. Like, there's kind of different things to do that aren't just the bill shows up and I pay it. What are my options for how I can use money in the moment? What are my options for resources that I can draw on? And not thinking just, like, I have to work hard, I have to earn money, I have to pay my bills and earn my right to a living, you know, to basic needs, Right? Like, what else is around that can kind of make that happen and start to just complicate that conversation?

[Elise Hu]

Have you been challenged on this idea of intuitive Spending in that. Could a skeptic say, for example, like, some people's intuition might lead them just to spend all of their money on frivolity, or what we might consider frivolous, like, are you making the bet that we will spend rationally essentially, if given, if. If no restriction, like, without restrictions on our budget?

[Dana Miranda]

I have heard that question a lot. And I think, just like with intuitive eating, it's a matter of trusting yourself. And there's a lot of undoing to do, too. Like, a lot of our spending decisions are a result of this culture of restriction. So we restrict and restrict and restrict. And then like, if we get a windfall or it's a holiday or we're on vacation or something, then we allow ourselves to splurge, right? So it's this restrict and splurge cycle, or we're budgeting and we like, do really well, quote, unquote, do good on our budget one week and then splurge the next week. So it's this constant kind of back and forth with that. And we see the same thing when, when people are dieting, is that back and forth? But if you're allowing yourself to spend intuitively, I think that urge starts to go away. That's something you have to train, you know, you have to train yourself out of that. Just like with any kind of mindfulness practice of learning to listen to yourself, learning to listen to your gut, also learning to just understand your finances and the resources that you have available and spending accordingly. But I am taking the bet that people will spend, I guess, rationally and that kind of, you know, and there's a lot of, like, there's kind of a lot of budget culture tied up in that, even kind of that question or that assumption or that, like defining something, you know, as spending rationally or frivolously, something like that. So I think it's really important to push back on the restriction because that's like all of financial advice is coming at us with restriction and judgment and shame. And so I can push back on that really hard. And people are still going to be working through a lot of internal restriction. But, yeah, I think you don't want to bring financial catastrophe into your life, right? So if you're buying what you want, when you want it, when you really kind of get down to it and listen to yourself and you're really thinking intuitively, you're not going to make decisions that are going to bring catastrophe, because that's not something that you want in your life, if that makes sense. I think that People can trust themselves to do what's right for them if they can quiet all of the noise that's outside of us.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. So since our situations, as you write, are quite unique and individual, and yet we are all kind of falling prey to the system of capitalism which drives this budget culture and makes us feel shame and blame, you specifically don't offer targeted advice or rules in the way that other financial books or experts might, but you do encourage some approaches like we've been talking about, and something called money maps. Can you talk us through a money map, how to make one, and how that might help us in our journey to be more intuitive spenders?

[Dana Miranda]

Yes, I think this is really helpful. It's kind of an important base. And I do offer, like, I have a money map PDF you can download from the book's website, and I have a set of questions that are in the book to kind of guide you through through this. But the basic idea of a money map is just getting the lay of the land, of your finances to help you make financial choices. So, like a map, right? It offers you kind of direction. It's a guide. And the idea is it starts out in kind of the same way that we often start with a budget, which is looking at your resources and looking at your spending. So the reasons that a lot of people start budgeting are the same that you might start using a money map because you just maybe don't know where your money's coming from, where it's going, how often you're spending, how much you're spending, and you're feeling out of control. So a money map can help you get that understanding by listing your income and other resources that you have access to, including community resources, debt resources, and credit, anything that you can use to access the things that you need and looking at the financial commitments you've made. So those are those monthly bills that we're talking about, and I use the term commitments because of what I was talking about earlier, because I don't want anyone to think of those expenses as an inevitability. They are things that you can cancel or negotiate or. Yeah, things that you can drop, bills that you can cut, things like that. So you can commit to an expense, and you can also uncommit from it. Right. So getting the lay of that, like what are the financial commitments you've made, subscriptions, bills you're paying, debt, payments that you have to make, of course, housing, mortgage and rent, things like that lets you see what you want to continue to commit to, what you might want to Uncommit to, to free up some money each month. And then there's also space to list your financial goals. So things. If you want to invest, if you want to save, I encourage to save Comfort Fund, which is kind of your rainy day fund. If you want to be able to take advantage of some opportunity, like leaving a job, or if you run into unexpected financial circumstances, like being laid off from a job, something like that, that money is available for you. But I don't prescribe a certain amount that you need to save like a lot of financial plans do. I just give the space for you to think about that goal. And then finally, the money map all kind of leads to what I call your yes fund, which is a very cheesy way of saying you're spending money. It's kind of your safe to spend fund. So you can use all of that other information to understand what you have available to spend. And you don't have to restrict that the way you would with a budget. You don't have to say, this is the bucket that I have available to spend because I had to save 10% and I have to spend this much on bills and etc. You can say, I want this much to be able to spend each month and where can I tweak everywhere else, right? Like where might I deprioritize some bills, where might I deprioritize some goals because I want to be able to spend? So it's kind of a fluid thing, but the idea is just to get the lay of the land. Where is your money coming from and where is it going so that you can make financial decisions with kind of a clearer head.

[Dory Shafrier]

How do you, how do you suggest people who might have, let's say, like an impulse control issue like adhd, where the idea of like an intuitive budget might be appealing, but they have a problem like controlling their spending. And if you, if you give them kind of free reign to spend, they will spend like it's, it's not, it's a, it's a brain chemistry thing. And so is, are there people for whom, like, intuitive budgeting doesn't work, or is there a way that this can work for people like that?

[Dana Miranda]

I recommend it for anyone, and I'm a financial educator, not a psychologist either. So I think people have to work with, you know, if, if you're having like an impulse control issue, I think that's an additional layer of things on top of money management. Right? So work with someone who understands adhd. So I do want to make that caveat too. But I think it can work for anyone. I think the same thing could be said for intuitive eating. And we've sort of worked through that. We're a little further down the road with fighting diet culture and have a better understanding of that. I think we can get to that same place with intuitive spending. Again, it's kind of an uphill road because all of the cultural forces around us are fighting against that and pushing us toward that restrict and splurge kind of cycle. So it is right now, it's a lot of work that you have to do individually, you know, around mindfulness. So if someone has any kind of impulse control concerns, I think anything that you're doing to rein those in, in general, applies to your relationship with money as well. And I think that's kind of the bigger message and why I make the parallels with diet culture, too, is that we treat money like the way that we treat, talk about, and teach about money. We sort of treat it like it's this siloed, separate thing that we can just apply a set of rules and a set of spreadsheets and a set of methods to that sort of outside of all of the other things that impact our lives. So, like, you mentioned, like having ADHD or something. Right. That we need to have that conversation with how we're talking about money. And we tend to not do that. We tend to not talk in any real way about how things like psychology and trauma are impacting our relationships with money. We kind of silo that off and just say, like, if you just follow these rules, you'll be fine. Right. But if you, if you have other things that you're dealing with that needs to be factored into the conversation, that really would be the case too. If someone with an impulse control issue is trying to maintain a budget, um, it's not really a different, you know, they're still fighting the same. Totally the same thing. So the budget doesn't make that issue go away. So we need to be more kind of holistic in the way that we are incorporating money into our lives.

[Elise Hu]

Speaking of holistic, you mentioned you are a financial educator. And a lot of folks in financial media and financial education actually talk about this paradox that the folks who need more financial education the most are the ones who are least likely to have access to it. And if we were just more educated and understood how interest rates and credit scores worked, then that might solve some of our financial problems. But you say that having access to financial education doesn't improve circumstances. Why not? Because it seems like intuitive Speaking of intuitive, it seems intuitive, like if I knew how to balance my checkbook, this is a really old timey phrase, balance my checkbook. But if I knew how to balance my checkbook, then maybe it would be balanced.

[Dana Miranda]

But it still can't be balanced if you don't have enough money. So I think that that is the piece that's missing. And not only not having enough money, like where the actual, like cash itself is not adding up, but having access to a bank in your neighborhood, having access to a bank where people speak your language, having access to, to financial services with service providers that understand your culture. There are a lot of barriers to people having that kind of equal access to money and a relationship with money in our culture that financial education is still not good at addressing. There are a lot of really amazing people in financial education who recognize that and want to change that. But we're starting at such a basic level, which is that in about half the states we don't even have a financial education mandate. So we don't even have a guarantee that people have any kind of access to financial education. So we're starting kind of really pretty far behind the starting line on just getting that information out to people. But at the same time, there are people who are trying to improve the information that's getting out there. And understanding that information itself is, is not enough. People also need access, People also need the resources. Like I said, I, I went through that financial education in writing and personal finance media, and the information that I was learning was not useful to me until my income reached a place where I could put that to use. You know, the debt snowball method is only useful if you have extra money to put toward paying down debt every month. Then you can put it into place. But if you don't have enough to pay those bills, then all of the financial education in the world isn't going to help you. So we have to start there and start with that understanding for people. And even in places where financial education has been guaranteed, there's been some audits of the effectiveness of financial education in high school. And the outcomes tend to, the inequality in outcomes tend to persist. So in students who went to like a high school in a lower income community or people of color, anyone who kind of started out with those disadvantages, those disadvantages continue regardless of their access to financial education.

[Elise Hu]

So what should we be teaching our kids and the next generation about money and sort of what do you wish you would have learned as you were growing up?

[Dana Miranda]

I want our education about personal finance in our culture to help people better understand our financial systems. And that's like top level, like what is capitalism and what is the position it puts you in? How does that work? But also why do we all rely on a workplace 401k to plan for retirement? And what does that mean? Our money is being invested. Right. What does that mean? What is the risk that's actually going into that? Why do so many people rely on credit cards to, to fund day to day needs? And what does that mean? Like where, what who's holding that money and why are they holding that money and why do we have to pay to have access to it? Right. A better understanding of how those products work and how they fit into the larger system I think. Will one reduce a lot of the shame that exists in personal finance because in our relationships with money. Because when we're just given a set of rules that most people can't follow, that just leads to most people feeling ashamed of how they're handling money and it leads to us just continuing to seek those kind of individuals solutions to what is very clearly systemic problems. Right. But in financial education we're not giving enough time, I don't think to those systemic issues and how to. That doesn't mean, you know, we, we already have like economics and, and social science classes that are talking about those issues. So it doesn't mean that we have to talk about them at that level, but we have to talk about, here's the reality. How do you as an individual survive given that reality? Right. Not just let's ignore this entire reality and just hand you a set of rules to follow and not question which is sort of how we teach personal finance right now.

[Dory Shafrier]

Dana, we have been asking our listeners for their questions about money and personal finance and we got a couple that I thought you might be able to answer. If you're up for that.

[Dana Miranda]

I'd love to try.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay, this is from a listener. I was just thinking on my stupid walk for my stupid mental health this morning. I wonder if they would take a money question that's about having money. I'll throw it in the ring. I grew up without money, periodically on welfare, paid my way through higher ed by working in a factory, etc. Fast forward to today where I have both worked hard and been incredibly lucky. And these factors have landed me in a place where I can work at a reasonable pace, take regular vacations and no longer live on a budget. At 42, I could retire in a low cost place in five years if I wish. Despite all of this, I'M incredibly stressed about money at all times. How could I start to relax and accept my life as it is today?

[Dana Miranda]

Ooh, that's a big question. And that's a tough place to be in, to be able to recognize that things are okay with money, but to still have, and I'm making a big leap of assumptions here, but to still have a lot of that trauma from growing up without enough money, from having to work so hard, hard probably compared to their peers to get through school and to get to the place that they're in, a lot of that's still kind of constantly creating stress around money. And even regardless of what your background is and what your situation is, we all have a lot of that pressure constantly. Just every headline is talking about the economy right now and what's happening in the stock market and what is going to happen, you know, with this administration, like what's going to happen next in the next few years. So if you're thinking I might be able to retire in five years, a lot of that could be up in the air and it could be very scary and very stressful. Even just living under capitalism kind of adds that pressure. Regardless of the political situation that we're in, there's always a lot of questions about how hard you're working and how much money you're bringing in and how far will it go given whatever's going to happen with inflation in the future. So it's kind of just the situation that we're thrust in and the water that we're swimming in. And so if you're asking how to relax, I think you're getting a really good start by taking stupid little walks for your stupid mental health. That's, that's generally where I recommend people starting, is with kind of any sort of of those mindfulness practices. So any of the self care practices that you talk about at the beginning of every episode. Right. Anything that's helping you better get in touch with yourself, your needs, so that you can have a little bit of that kind of quiet and space to start to recognize if you're feeling financial stress. Where is that coming from? Is it something that you need to hold on to and address or is it something, given the way you're describing your situation, is it actually something you can let go of because it's coming from a complete third party source and you, you don't need to live with that.

[Elise Hu]

I like that.

[Dory Shafrier]

It sounds like you're also saying like, give yourself some grace. Yeah, you know, absolutely.

[Dana Miranda]

That's. If you could just open My book. And it was just blank pages and just one, one sentence that said, give yourself some grace. That's. That's kind of the message. This is really hard, and none of us are given any of the tools to survive it, regardless of the kind of socioeconomic situation you're born into. Yeah, we're all in a terrible situation, and we're all just, just trying to do our best.

[Elise Hu]

All right, Dana, without succumbing to budget culture, what are a few practical tools that you can leave us with to help us manage our money with more ease and more grace for ourselves?

[Dana Miranda]

Start with those personal mindfulness practices and self care, like real self care kind of practices. I do personally a lot of journaling, and that's probably because I'm a writer. And so everything I do kind of ties back to writing. And I do recommend that for people or meditation, you know, walks like anything like that. That kind of works for you to help you process your thoughts and experiences. Start to incorporate your relationship with money into those things, because that's what's going to help you see kind of that more holistic view of your relationship with money and understand how it fits into your life. And, and you need to do that to be able to start to ask that question of like, what do you want to buy? What do you want money to support in your life? And so in order to spend intuitively, you have to be able to get in touch with that intuition. So start, start with that. The money Map is a very practical tool that I think is really helpful, especially for the, the people who come to me who are saying, if I get rid of a budget, I will have no idea what's going on with my money. And that's very scary. Or they come and they say, I'm not doing anything. I have no idea what's going on with my money. Can I do use the money Map to just walk you through kind of a series of questions and start. It's basically a journaling exercise that I made up for myself now that I describe it. But get an understanding of what's going on with your money and then follow resources in personal finance, because like I said, many of us, especially folks my age, kind of mid millennials, are, did not have financial education in any formal way. And so we're just figuring it out. There are a lot of blogs and social media accounts that are talking about money, and a lot of those offer a ton of really bad budget culture advice that I would say filter out. But a lot of them also can help you start to get some of those basics like what is a high yield savings account and what is the difference between that and the savings account that I have now? What kind of credit card do I want to get those kinds of things right? They can give you some of that basic information. So if you go into it understanding that they're coming at you with this budget culture advice, you can kind of filter that out and still take the information that is just kind of what we have access to right now. Hopefully more people will read you don't need a budget and start to offer budget free financial advice and start to be able to answer those questions without the shame and blame and restriction added in there. But until then, we'll just filter it out ourselves.

[Elise Hu]

Well, I have to say, as somebody who has not had a budget and always felt sort of guilty about it, like I have always felt sort of like chaotic as a result of not budgeting. But I also don't want to put my mental energy there and psychic energy there. And so I appreciate it. I appreciated the message that we're all part of this bigger system and that we don't need to feel.

[Dana Miranda]

That's very much where I came from too was like all of this sounds like I'm just going to spend all of my days thinking about my money and that's the last thing I want to do. Right. How can I just enjoy my days more and not be super stressed out about money? So that's, that's what I'm always trying to. How can we find ease in money management?

[Dory Shafrier]

Where can our listeners find you if they want to follow along with your work?

[Dana Miranda]

The best place to follow me is through my newsletter, Healthy Rich. And you can find that on Substack or at healthyrich Co. And you can learn more about the book at you don't need a budget dot com.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thank you so much.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you so much.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, this was great. Well, she was certainly interesting. I really learned a lot from her and I loved her book.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And I didn't. I guess it wasn't until I read her book that I realized there were so many finance, personal finance gurus out there that tell that sell so many different methods and plans and things. And it, it is easy to get like lost in all of that and feel that scarcity mindset.

[Dory Shafrier]

Totally.

[Elise Hu]

So thank you, Dana for coming on. And now we enter the intention zone.

[Dory Shafrier]

The intention zone. Okay, so last week I was talking about how this week is the last week of school. Henry's last day is actually tomorrow. I told him that tonight after his soccer practice. We could bake cookies for his teachers. So we're gonna do that. And then coming up next week, just like the transition to summer. Yeah, it's a big transition. You know, I kind of. It's a big transition for Henry. It's a big transition for me. So just sort of like navigating that and thinking about, like, what I want the summer to look like is like, what I'm gonna be thinking about for next week.

[Elise Hu]

Because we are transitioning to summer. My kids have their last day. I guess just it would be tomorrow. Since this is coming out on Monday. And because we are transitioning, I really need to get a bunch of stuff out of my house. Like, I have so much random. I have a lot of old toys and things that need to probably go because I'm not going to have any more babies and knock on wood. And so I would like to set as my intention, just, like, declutter. I kind of need to Marie Kondo it. So I'm going to declutter. I'm going to put decluttering as my. I'll feel better, too. Going into the summer, just having a little bit more closet space. Just fewer random items in bins. So I have these big bins with handles on each side that anytime I don't really want to put something away in a precise spot, I just throw it in a bin. So now I just have, like, a bunch of stuff in bins. Like, I need to. Like, I need to offer up lots of squishmallows and stuffed animals for adoption. Just lots of things that probably need to. Lots of Lego sets. We have so many Lego sets, endless Lego sets. And, like, the kids haven't played with Legos in years. So anyway, that's gonna be my intention. Oh, and then last week, my intention ended up going great. It was hosting Dory's friends, meeting Dory's friends, and then her friends have become friends. So that was a success.

[Dory Shafrier]

Um, yeah. One of your friends was on your team with some of my friends, and I feel like they all bonded.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, well, thanks, everyone, for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dory Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam and who Knio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. We'll talk to you soon.

[Elise Hu]

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