Episode 359: Burn It Down with Maris Kreizman

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 359: "Burn It Down with Maris Kreizman" – Detailed Summary

Release Date: June 30, 2025

In Episode 359 of the Forever35 podcast, co-hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve deep into personal and societal themes alongside their special guest, Maris Kreizman. This episode intertwines heartfelt personal narratives with incisive cultural critiques, all delivered with the show's signature humor and self-awareness.

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1. Hosts' Personal Reflections and Updates (00:01 – 05:35)

The episode opens with Doree and Elise sharing personal updates. Doree expresses her recent absence due to attending her sister-in-law's funeral, highlighting the emotional toll it has taken on her and her family.

• Doree Shafrir shares, "There were like 700 people at her funeral... it was rough, for sure. It was just so sad." ([04:07])

Elise reciprocates with her own experiences of supporting friends moving abroad and reflects on the importance of being present for loved ones during times of transition and loss.

• Elise Hu remarks, "It really teaches you to just hug your loved ones and hug them tight." ([09:40])

Their candid discussion sets a poignant tone for the episode, emphasizing themes of grief, connection, and resilience.

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2. Introducing Maris Kreizman (10:43 – 14:32)

Doree formally introduces Maris Kreizman, highlighting her accomplishments as an essayist, critic, and podcaster.

• Doree Shafrir states, "Maris is an essayist and critic with a bi-weekly column at Lit Hub... her essay collection is called 'I Want to Burn this Place Down,' out July 1st." ([10:43])

Maris's extensive background in literature and her creative endeavors, such as the Marist Review podcast and the popular Tumblr Slaughterhouse 90210, are noted, establishing her as a thought-provoking and multifaceted guest.

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3. Personal Self-Care Practices (14:30 – 16:21)

The conversation shifts to self-care, a staple topic for Forever35 listeners. Maris shares her recent adoption of a new dog and how long walks paired with audiobooks serve as her sanctuary.

• Maris Kreizman mentions, "We adopted a new dog three months ago and going on a long walk with her and listening to an audiobook is my favorite way to create a little space for me." ([14:47])

Elise and Maris exchange audiobook recommendations, fostering a sense of shared interests and community.

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4. Deep Dive into Maris Kreizman's Background and Collegiate Experiences (16:21 – 19:50)

Maris and Elise explore Maris's college days at the University of Pennsylvania, including her interactions with Doree and contemporaries like Donnie Trump Jr.

• Maris Kreizman reflects, "I thought I was there because I was smart and talented. And then when Donald Trump Jr. is in your class, you kind of have to revisit what you think a meritocracy is." ([16:32])

This segment critically examines the illusion of meritocracy and the impact of socio-economic backgrounds on personal and academic success.

The discussion touches upon Maris's portrayal of Donnie Trump Jr., contrasting her initial perceptions with his later public persona.

• Maris Kreizman candidly shares, "Donnie was just a typical frat boy... not any worse than any other frat boy. But I think he's really proven himself to be a real monster in a way that I hadn't given him enough credit for in college." ([17:51])

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5. Exploring Maris Kreizman's Work and Perspectives (19:50 – 27:40)

Elise commends Maris's podcasting endeavors and inquires about the personal fulfillment she derived from interviewing authors.

• Maris Kreizman responds, "I got an enormous amount of personal fulfillment that I don't think I got from any other job... the freedom was just so wonderful." ([20:15])

Maris offers insights into her forthcoming Lit Hub piece about author advice before publication, emphasizing the importance of enjoying the process amidst stress.

The conversation transitions to societal critiques, notably the concept of meritocracy and its disillusioning effects.

• Maris Kreizman asserts, "So many of these systems that I thought were designed for me... had been stopped working for me, but they had never been designed for most other people." ([24:41])

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6. Addressing "Copaganda" and Societal Trust (27:40 – 31:29)

Maris introduces and defines copaganda, critiquing media portrayals that glorify police officers while marginalizing victims.

• Maris Kreizman explains, "Copaganda is any kind of culture that valorizes what police officers do... cops being the good guys and the bad drug dealers were the bad guys." ([28:16])

The hosts and Maris discuss the lasting impact of such portrayals on societal trust and individual behavior, sharing personal anecdotes that illustrate the ingrained mistrust fostered by media narratives.

• Maris Kreizman reflects, "Not trusting your neighbors is a really way to have bad things happen in your neighborhood." ([29:24])

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7. Envisioning a Positive Media Landscape and Personal Aspirations (31:29 – 35:44)

The discussion shifts to envisioning alternative media representations. Maris advocates for shows that center victims and move away from traditional cop procedurals, suggesting a shift towards more empathetic storytelling.

• Maris Kreizman proposes, "Moving on from cop procedurals in general would be revolutionary." ([31:01])

Elise and Maris explore the potential for media to foster genuine connections and understanding, rather than perpetuating stereotypes and fear.

Transitioning to personal aspirations, Maris shares her dreams for societal change, emphasizing mutual aid and diverse definitions of success.

• Maris Kreizman states, "Realizing that there are different paths to success and definitions of success is a big deal for me." ([34:16])

She further discusses the importance of community support over reliance on faltering political systems.

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8. Maris Kreizman's Vision for a Good Life and Micro Joys (35:44 – 40:35)

Maris articulates her philosophy on living a fulfilling life, highlighting the significance of connections, love, and personal passions.

• Maris Kreizman shares, "Talking about books makes me really happy... loving my husband is a big one... connecting to other people is the main way to achieve happiness." ([35:44])

Elise and Maris exchange personal self-care tips, underscoring the podcast's theme of nurturing oneself and others through simple, meaningful actions.

• Maris Kreizman recommends, "When you need to deep condition your hair, you get a little bit of olive oil... it works as well or better than anything you have to pay a lot of money for." ([37:59])

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9. Strengthening Relationships and Final Thoughts (40:35 – 43:53)

The conversation culminates with strategies for deepening personal relationships. Maris highlights the impact of small, thoughtful gestures in maintaining strong bonds.

• Maris Kreizman suggests, "Spending $10 on a lip something... just wanting to brighten someone's day because you know them and love them is really excellent." ([39:43])

Elise shares her own practices for fostering connections, reinforcing the episode's overarching message of intentionality in relationships.

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10. Closing Remarks and Hosts' Updates (44:09 – End)

As the episode winds down, Doree and Elise offer brief personal updates, maintaining the intimate and conversational tone that Forever35 is known for. They express gratitude towards their listeners and wrap up the episode with heartfelt goodbyes.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Doree Shafrir: "There were like 700 people at her funeral... it was rough, for sure. It was just so sad." ([04:07])

• Elise Hu: "It really teaches you to just hug your loved ones and hug them tight." ([09:40])

• Maris Kreizman: "I thought I was there because I was smart and talented... revisiting what you think a meritocracy is." ([16:32])

• Maris Kreizman: "Donnie was just a typical frat boy... but I think he's really proven himself to be a real monster." ([17:51])

• Maris Kreizman: "So many of these systems... had been stopped working for me, but they had never been designed for most other people." ([24:41])

• Maris Kreizman: "Copaganda is any kind of culture that valorizes what police officers do... cops being the good guys and the bad drug dealers were the bad guys." ([28:16])

• Maris Kreizman: "Talking about books makes me really happy... connecting to other people is the main way to achieve happiness." ([35:44])

---

Conclusion

Episode 359 of Forever35 masterfully blends personal storytelling with critical societal analysis, offering listeners both emotional resonance and intellectual stimulation. Maris Kreizman's insights into meritocracy, media portrayals of police, and the essence of a fulfilling life provide ample food for thought, while the hosts' genuine exchanges underscore the podcast's commitment to authenticity and community.

Whether grappling with personal loss or dissecting cultural constructs, this episode serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of connection, self-care, and the continuous pursuit of understanding in an ever-evolving world.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker]

Race the rudders.

[Dory Shafrier]

Race the sails.

[Unknown Speaker]

Race the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

[Elise Hu]

Over.

[Maris Kriseman]

Roger, wait.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Dory Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

Welcome to the show.

[Elise Hu]

This is a Monday episode. Usually the line on Wednesdays is, and this is a mini episode. But this is not a mini episode. This is a Monday episode.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's not a mini episode.

[Elise Hu]

And on Monday episodes we have amazing guests on and we do kind of longer form interviews. And today we have on Maris Kriseman, who is an old friend of Dory's who we will formally introduce later. But we catch up first. And so. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Did Maris tell you that we went to college together?

[Elise Hu]

She sure did. She sure did.

[Dory Shafrier]

We go like, way, way, way back.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, we actually have. I don't want to give too much away, but at the start of the interview, like, we started talking about kind of how the two of you are connected and we got into pen and then that led us down the road of like, G Love, who has been a character on. Yes. On this podcast who has been like a surprising recurring charact.

[Dory Shafrier]

Recurring. It's true.

[Elise Hu]

Forever 35 conversations of. Of 2025. So, yeah, it was. It was really lovely. She has an essay in her forthcoming collection about starting at pen, and she doesn't mention you specifically, but she mentions another classmate of yalls, Donnie Trump Jr.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm a year older than Maris. Donnie was her year. So. Yeah. Mm.

[Elise Hu]

Did you ever see him around campus?

[Dory Shafrier]

I don't think so. We were in different worlds.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay.

[Maris Kriseman]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I'm assuming he was Wharton or something. Right. He was studying business.

[Dory Shafrier]

He was Wharton. But. But more than that, he was in a very, like, fratty frat.

[Elise Hu]

Ah, shocker.

[Dory Shafrier]

Shocker. That I believe actually got kicked off campus, like, while he was there. He was also, I think his roommate was a guy I'm, like, sort of friendly with who has some, like, interesting stories.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, I'm sure. No doubt.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, yes.

[Elise Hu]

No doubt, no doubt.

[Dory Shafrier]

But yeah, the. The interview is only with Elise because I was in Boston and Connecticut because my sister in law passed away last week. And so I went to the funeral and spent some time with family, and so I was not able to make it to the interview.

[Elise Hu]

We're so sorry, Dor. Thanks. There's. There's a lot of love coming from all of us in the Forever 35 community. I hope you feel it and that your family.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Has gotten. Has received lots of condolences because your sister in law seemed like just such a light.

[Dory Shafrier]

She really was. And that, like, really came across in everything that people said about her at her funeral. And just like the. The number of people who showed up. There were like 700 people at her funeral. And. Yeah, so it was, it was rough, for sure. I mean, it was just so sad. But I'm. I'm glad I went, so.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, no, it's so important that you were there. And how's your brother doing?

[Dory Shafrier]

I mean, you know, I think he. It's like the thing where you're. You're mourning, you're grieving, but you also have to, like, get your kids out of bed. Do you know what I mean? And like, make them breakfast. Like, he has two little kids. Like, he still has to, like, do those things, you know, so it's like heartbreaking. Yeah, it's really. Yeah, I think it's. I think it's a lot, but I. I was glad I got to spend some time with him, like just at his house, not with, you know, the hundreds of people who were there for the funeral. So that was really nice. I'm really glad I got to spend that. That time and hang out with his kids also.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Because they're. They're 10 and 8. Like, they're.

[Elise Hu]

They're pretty young, so it just feels so wrong.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's just very unfair.

[Elise Hu]

Mm.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. So anyway, thank you so much.

[Elise Hu]

Love from all of us.

[Maris Kriseman]

Truly.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. And thank you. Anyway, how are you?

[Elise Hu]

I was just in the east coast also, despite the oppressive heat, because I have two sets of friends who are getting the out of America So I have one set of friends that's headed to a tour, like a foreign tour. They're diplomats. So I figured since I'm not going to see these guys for three years, I should be at their send off brunch. And then on the same day, my college roommate Amy and her partner Allie, they were planning their send off brunch because she has taken. My college roommate Amy has taken an editor job at the New York Times London bureau. And so they are off to London. And it's the same thing for journalists too. We also do three year or four year stints abroad. So her contract abroad is at least three years. So I don't know if I'm going to see her again. I mean, I have these dreams of going to watch Wimbledon with her maybe next summer, but who knows? And so I thought, you know, what if all four of these friends are leaving the country and they're doing send offs on the same day then and they're going like 3,000, if not more, more than 3,000 miles away, then like, what is it for me to fly 3,000 miles to go see them? So I was really, really, really grateful and nourished by being able to go out there and spend time with them because not only was it them, it was also their tribes of people. And Garrett has friends from all over the world. Garrett the diplomat, he has friends from all over the world, you know, from his various tours, because he's been in Bangladesh and the UK and the Bahamas and Seoul, you know, all these other places of the world. So all his friends he collected, they showed up if they happened to be in D.C. there was a diplomat from New Zealand who happened to be in town, but we all knew each other when we lived in Seoul, and so that was great. And then Amy, because we went to college together, there were friends for 20 plus years of mine. We've been friends since the early 2000s when we were all in college together at the University of Missouri, M I Z. And so that was really lovely. What was a fun surprise was Garrett saved a seat at the brunch in the morning, his goodbye brunch, for one of his friends who is. Who wanted to chat because she is a Forever 35 listener. And Garrett was like, oh, my friend, you know, my friend's coming and she's been listening to Forever 35 Forever. And so she came and we got to catch up and talk about how surprised we were that Stacey Abrams likes reacher and other Forever 35 material. So it was really fun. We do have some listeners among the federal government corps. So that was.

[Maris Kriseman]

That.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that was very cool. And just being at D.C. i went back to my old house in D.C. too, the one where we lived when Ava was born. And so I had these memories of Ava taking her first steps in the kitchen. And I just can't believe it's been like 13 years since that. And we're nearly. Nearly 13 years. It's just strange. I saw my old next door neighbor who's still there, Ms. Alice, because she came out because she saw me there, like checking on the house and everything because we rented out and because I thought that I was going to go back to D.C. maybe after. After Seoul and never did. And Ms. Alice, like, Ms. Alice saw me. She's like, is that you? And then she had tears in her eyes because we hadn't seen each other in so long. And I showed her a photo of. She only knew Ava because Isa and Luna were born abroad. And I showed her a photo of the girls and it was just very. It was all very connective and touching and hot. My over. My overwhelming feelings were of deep connection and gratitude, but also just being overheated. My body overheating.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

It's been such an up and down couple of weeks, you know, with you losing your sister in law. And then my best friend Justin, who was staying at my house, suffered a very surprising tragedy as well. It's just like, God, it really. It really teaches you to just hug your loved ones and hug them tight.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yep.

[Elise Hu]

And just show up when you can, whenever you can. So.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was definitely a theme of my sister in law's like the. The things, all the speech, all the eulogies that people gave. It was just like she always showed up like she loved nothing more than like getting people together and you know, she just was that kind of person. So trying to channel that a little bit more.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, should we introduce our guest?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And this interview was really special too. A lot of the themes that we're talking about right now in this. The intro to the interview came up in my conversation with Maris too. So I'm really excited for y' all to hear it. Dory, I'll let you take it away with the. With her bio.

[Dory Shafrier]

Maris is an essayist and critic with a bi weekly column at Lit Hub. And her work has appeared in the New York Times, New York Magazine, the Wall Street Journal. Just the list goes on and on. And her essay collection is called I Want to Burn this Place Down. It is out tomorrow, July 1st. She also hosted the Marist Review, an intimate literary podcast in which she interviewed her favorite authors about their latest books and that ended in 2023. She now runs a newsletter of the same name and for those of you who have been around the Internet for a while, she was also the creator of Slaughterhouse 90210, which was an amazing tumblr where she would put quotes from Slaughterhouse 5 with images from Beverly Hills 90210. It was so like of a time and it was so popular and she turned it into a book that came out in 2015 and that celebrates the intersection of literature and pop culture. She lives in Brooklyn with her husband, her dog and her books. Before we take a little break, just a reminder, you can Visit our website forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. You can follow us on Instagram @forever35podcast. Join our patreon at patreon.com Forever35 Shop our favorite products at Shopmy Us Us Forever35 Sign up for our newsletter at Forever35podcast.com Newsletter and you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com all right, we are going to take a short break and we will be right back with Maris. If your house is anything like mine, you probably eat a lot of fish. But when you buy fish you have to worry about everything from nutrition and taste to sustainability. But not anymore. I've been getting salmon, cod, halibut, pollock from Wild Alaskan Co. And it's been amazing. We love all the fish that we've gotten and Matt has been making fish and chips with the cod. I've been sauteing the halibut, making some delicious baked salmon. It's all been so delicious. Wild Alaskan Company is the best way to get wild caught. Perfectly portioned, nutrient dense seafood delivered directly to your door. And if you're not completely satisfied with your first box, Wild Alaskan Company will give you a full refund. No questions asked, no risk, just high quality seafood. But you won't want one. This fish, from sockeye salmon to Pacific rockfish are 100% wild caught, never farmed. Which means there's no antibiotics, GMOs or additives. Just clean, real fish that support healthy oceans and fishing communities. Wild Alaskan fish are frozen off the boat to lock in taste, texture and nutrients like omega 3s, because not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com Forever35 for $35 off your first box of premium wild Caught Seafood. That's wildalaskan.com Forever35 for $35 off your first order. Thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Elise Hu]

Maris Kriseman, welcome to the show.

[Maris Kriseman]

Thank you so much, Elise. I'm so just delighted to be here.

[Elise Hu]

As you probably know, we start all our interviews by asking what folks are doing for self care. So what are you doing lately that you would consider a way of taking care of yourself?

[Maris Kriseman]

We adopted a new dog three months ago and going on a long walk with her and listening to an audiobook is my favorite way to create a little space for me. And I signed up with Libro fm, which is a great alternative to audible and it's great.

[Elise Hu]

Do you have any audiobook recommendations off the top of your head? Something that you really enjoyed listening to while walking the new puppy?

[Maris Kriseman]

Yeah, I just listened to Jeremy Irons read Brideshead Revisited. Wow, that was, that's, you know, sometimes I feel like the narration, especially by a stuffy British guy, can be too much. But this was on point.

[Elise Hu]

Perfect. I'm a big fan of any books Narrated by the Goat. Julia Whelan, I think that's her name.

[Maris Kriseman]

She's great. She's great.

[Elise Hu]

There's so many books that I would have never consumed but for the fact she was narrating it. And so I'm like, okay, I guess I'll listen to this, you know, murder mystery set in New England, which does, is totally usually out of my wheelhouse, but I love that.

[Maris Kriseman]

And she, I think she just narrated the new Taylor Jenkins Reid. So that's a fun one to put on the list.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Well, you're such, you're such a book geek. I love it. So Dory isn't here with us because she sadly had a death in her family. But I know you and Dory go way back, so. So how do you two know each other? How are you connected?

[Maris Kriseman]

Dory and I met in college at the University of Pennsylvania.

[Elise Hu]

Wow. You and Dor and Donald Trump Jr.

[Maris Kriseman]

All three of us in the same place at the same time. And I. You know, if she were here because we've had this conversation before, I think. I think she would say the same thing that I say in my book, which is that I thought I was there because I was smart and talented. And then when Donald Trump Jr. Is in your class, you kind of have to revisit what you think a meritocracy is.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Was that your first awakening to the problems or the fallacy of this idea of, oh, so long as you work hard, you'll get what you believe you deserve?

[Maris Kriseman]

I think so, because I do feel like admission to college was my reward for working very hard in high school. So it wasn't until I got to Penn and realized that so many of my classmates came from remarkably different backgrounds than I did that I started to consider that perhaps some people start on second base, third base.

[Elise Hu]

That's what former Texas governor Ann Richards always said about George W. Bush. He was born on third base and thought he hit a triple. Right?

[Maris Kriseman]

100%. And, yeah, I mean, when. When we were in college, Donnie was just a typical frat boy, like, very drunk. I get to say it in the book, so I'll say it on this podcast, too, but not any worse than any other frat boy. So I think he's really proven himself to be a real monster in a way that I hadn't given him enough credit for in college.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Like, who knew he would achieve such heights of evil, right? He was so mid. But it turns out he, like, attached himself to such a cruel and historically cruel regime.

[Maris Kriseman]

May I be as evil as a mediocre white man.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it's so funny. The pen years, I didn't know so many Penn folks until. Or Penn alumni until I moved here to Los Angeles. But y' all have a real, you know, diaspora, if you will, all over the world, and especially in big cities. And my partner went to Penn, and I think he overlapped with Dory when she was a. Well, I guess when y' all were freshmen and he was a senior. And G Love of G Love and Special Sauce is out of Philly and around that era. And so recently, G Love played here in Los Angeles. He played a golf course, and my partner Rob took us, and I was like, okay. But Dory still had a ticket stub from seeing him in 1995.

[Maris Kriseman]

I love that. I. I wonder if I have my ticket stub, too. My husband will Laugh about this all the time with me. Like how. How earnestly I rep for G Love and his special sauce.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, so talented. I mean, he truly is a one man band because we watched as he played guitar and harmonica and then and percussion with his foot, all at the same time. Incredibly talented artist.

[Maris Kriseman]

He's so good.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, you were also a podcaster. So in addition to being cultural critic and now an author of this essay collection, I want to burn this place down. Which is excellent. And we'll get more into it later in the interview. Thank you. You were also a podcaster for a long time and I really enjoyed listening to your conversations with authors on the Marist Review. What do you feel like you got out of all those in depth conversations with big thinkers over those years?

[Maris Kriseman]

I love that question. First, I got an enormous amount of personal fulfillment that I don't think I got from any other job. I was picking all of the authors I wanted to talk to and talking to them in the way that I wanted to talk to. And the freedom of that was just so wonderful. And then it's funny you should ask this question because I have a piece running in Lit Hub tomorrow about some of the advice I give to authors as they're about to publish that I had to tell myself. And it's everything. Everyone is neurotic around pub. I mean, that's a broad. But most people are neurotic around pub date. And it. It's a good thing to remember to have fun.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Maris Kriseman]

And to not be stressed out the entire time because this is the culmination of a lot of work that you've done.

[Elise Hu]

Right. Right. It's like those who are planning for a big event and then you get this sort of post event, post wedding, post whatever, post graduation kind of come down if you've built too much toward it. So what can you give us a sneak peek? Some of the advice that you give folks besides like, have fun.

[Maris Kriseman]

Well, don't look at Goodreads. That's the first rule of being an author. It's not for you. It's none of your business.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Maris Kriseman]

I also think for me in particular, taking time for yourself. I think this is a good message for this podcast too, is really important because I feel like I'm an extroverted introvert and I will still need recovery time while I'm on my book tour. And if I don't get it, I know that I will be flagging.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. You know something that I did. I'm an extroverted, extrovert. But I also need Elise time. And I tried to build in a ritual, especially knowing that I would be traveling and, like, I'd wake up in Dallas, but then at night go to bed in Houston or whatever.

[Maris Kriseman]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

New York and then D.C. and so I tried to build in just kind of a ritual, a morning ritual of doing stretches or trying to do a plank, you know, for a minute, and just doing that every day over the course of the two weeks or however long I was traveling, just to have something to anchor me.

[Maris Kriseman]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

And it sounds like you're talking about something similar.

[Maris Kriseman]

Yeah, I think so. Even just, like, if I have to remind myself that we're at the bar and everyone wants another round of drinks, like, maybe. Maybe it's not the best idea for me right now in this moment.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's turn to the collection, because this is very personal. You know, it's a lot about your awakening and your coming of age and then where you're at now. We came up around the same time and are women who internalized this notion that we were talking about earlier of the idea of meritocracy. Right. That there can be enough individual achievement to arrive at financial security and fulfillment.

[Maris Kriseman]

All of the things that you want from a fulfilling life.

[Elise Hu]

But what are all the sort of falsehoods in that, in that idea that were revealed to you over time, and what are you pressing for instead now?

[Maris Kriseman]

Yeah, I think. I think for our parents generation. I don't want to presume about your parents, but for my parents, working hard really did get them the house and the car and the kids and the financial security. And I just don't know if we live in that world anymore. Of course, so many of these systems that I thought were designed for me, and they had been stopped working for me, but they had never been designed for most other people. And I think it's important to acknowledge that, too, that, like, I was taught this fantasy about what American life could be, and if it didn't work for me, then how much worse is it for other people?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. It's such a lonely kind of mindset, too, that if we don't arrive at some sort of security and are still. Or don't arrive at marriage or children or all these other sorts of cultural norms that are baked in as goals, that somehow it's a personal failing.

[Maris Kriseman]

In my book, I talk about being diagnosed with diabetes, type 1 diabetes, which is the kind where you need to take insulin every day or you die, and how much. Even my blood sugars, if they're too high or too low. I feel like a failure. And the moral weight of that is, is so hard to overcome sometimes. But, but, but it, we get it in every area, it seems, of American life.

[Elise Hu]

How have you learned self compassion and grace and learn to see things differently?

[Maris Kriseman]

One of the things in my book that I didn't realize until I had finished writing it that was important was learning to ask for help and to depend on other people, you know, because for me, you know, I will donate to my mutual aid organization and I will seek a community that way. But I never thought of my, myself as someone who also needed support and, and that has really changed how I see the world.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah. The other myth that we came up with or the other myth that we grew up with is the one that the checks and balances of our political system. Right. And that those checks and balances would hold and that they would prevent corruption.

[Maris Kriseman]

Elise, we are just living in the aftermath of checks and balances. Absolutely not right. The way they should.

[Elise Hu]

And so how do we get to the after if we arrive at the after of whatever this moment that we're in is? And how are you coping with it as we try and push through?

[Maris Kriseman]

You know, I don't, I don't entirely know. I could not pretend that I know how to get beyond this, but I have started voting for candidates who vow to take action rather than just blue sky about it when something goes awry. Chuck Schumer, mutual aid for sure. The thing that I learned as a diabetic is that every kind of politician loves to talk about the price of insulin, but no one's coming to save us except for ourselves.

[Elise Hu]

Really important lesson for this moment that we're in. The other thing that you wrestle with in the book is copaganda. I thought that essay was so timely.

[Maris Kriseman]

Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

As I am recording from la, which is still militarized. So you wrote a whole essay about the culture that we came up with or the culture that we grew up in and how much cops were portrayed as the good guys. So what do you think all of that did to us as a society? And first, first maybe define copaganda and what it looks like and how it should.

[Maris Kriseman]

Propaganda is in the terms I'm talking about it, any kind of culture that valorizes what police officers do. And growing up in the 80s and 90s, you couldn't turn on the television without seeing cops being valorized, whether it was on late night TV like a Miami Vice or on the evening news, which, you know, when we were growing Up. It was the war on drugs time, and the cops were the good guys and the bad drug dealers were the bad guys. And we all needed their protection and their help. And I think, you know, we also. What a weird time that we grew up in because we also grew up in the time of stranger danger.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Maris Kriseman]

And we were told constantly, and this I think really speaks to rugged individualism. Again, we were told not to trust anybody. We were told that the only people that we could trust were our parents, our teachers, and policemen men.

[Elise Hu]

This brings up such a strong memory for me of being maybe like in fifth grade and coming home on the school bus with my little brother who's in third grade. And then like the key to my house not working and not being able to get into my house and kind of panicking there on the front porch. And then my neighbor across the street, who we knew and who was out there with his son and he would play basketball with his son. He saw that we were struggling and offered to help. And I was terrified. I remember, like, I had been taught that we cannot have anybody help. And so I was like, oh, no, no. I'll just wait for my mom.

[Maris Kriseman]

Yeah, it really, like not trusting your neighbors is a really way to have bad things happen in your neighborhood. I think, you know, part of the Copaganda essay has me moving to New York City from the suburbs of New Jersey. And in that capacity too, I was taught everything that a 22 year old white suburban girl is taught about moving to New York City. And that involves carrying a rape whistle, perhaps, or carrying your keys in a strategic way. And I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but the amount of armor I felt like I had to put up just to get to work every day is astonishing.

[Elise Hu]

Now, what's the alternate affirmative vision for what we could see on TV that's not 54 seasons of Cops.

[Maris Kriseman]

Right, right. You know, I always love books and television that center the victim. I think that's a big step and that's the kind of true crime I love too. But I also think just moving on from cop procedurals in general would be revolutionary.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I'm okay with more doctor shows.

[Maris Kriseman]

We could do more doctor shows. I think firefighters are pretty okay. I realized that even Brooklyn Nine Nine, which I thought was such a warm and compassionate show.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Maris Kriseman]

Was. Was Copaganda simply because it portrayed all of these authoritative people as being silly and zany and funny and not to. Not to everyone.

[Elise Hu]

Right, right. Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

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[Elise Hu]

Well, we're talking about one of the essays and then previously we were talking about the meritocracy one featuring Donald Trump, Donnie Trump Jr. As you call him, and you've written about diabetes to open the book. There's another essay about choosing not to have children. There's such a range of what you write about in this collection. What do you feel is the through line?

[Maris Kriseman]

The through line is that the vision for my life that I grew up with was not the one that it turned out to be and that's okay, if not better. I think that another through line is that we like to think the media likes to portray that we all grow more conservative as we age. And I am just the polar opposite of that. Like I am dreaming bigger now than I ever did.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. That leads me to a follow up, which is what are you dreaming for society wise? And then we'll talk more about you.

[Maris Kriseman]

Personally, I always go back to mutual aid simply because I see the state of our government now and it's hard to trust that anyone else has our backs. For sure. I think even just realizing that there are different paths to success and definitions of success is a big deal for me. And that does come up in the deciding not to have children essay. Like, what if I could just be happy being me, doing work that I enjoy, but not doing it all the time and then just being a person?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. I really have long wanted my career trajectory to be one of greater flexibility, even though that might mean not more money.

[Maris Kriseman]

For sure. Yeah. Freelancing has really has taught me that there are trade offs.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. What does it mean to you now then, to live a good life? Like what are some of your micro joys or joys that get put together to make you feel like, hey, today was a good day, this was a good week, or I'm in the place that I want to be.

[Maris Kriseman]

Yeah. Talking about books makes me really happy, especially talking about books that normally wouldn't get as much attention as they as I think they deserve. I think loving my husband is a big one. And loving our friend group and loving our families and our dog and then, yeah, connecting to other people I think is the main way to achieve happiness.

[Elise Hu]

Do you want to shout out any books that aren't getting enough attention this summer?

[Maris Kriseman]

I really loved Meet Me at the Crossroads by Megan Giddings. She is a great writer who writes about the fantastical, but in a way that really, really relates to our world that we live in right now. And she's so precise. The dad Rock that Made Me A Woman by Nico Stratus. It's a memoir in songs that my friend Nico wrote about coming out as a trans woman to, you know, Bruce Springsteen and Wilco and all of the songs that I think she once thought she couldn't like she were being cool. One more. Vohini Vara wrote searches selfhood in the digital age. And that is an essay collection about how she's about our age, about how the digital space has changed everything about the way we live. And it's really touching and scary and great.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Okay. Fantastic. And occasionally, because you're a friend of the show and a friend of the co host and founder Dorie, we don't always ask all of our guests because it can be a little bit indulgent, but we ask kind of an older OG Forever 35 question, which is what are you doing for your skin care or hair care? Are there certain products that you can't live without?

[Maris Kriseman]

So growing up, my mom taught me the best at home trick, which is that when you need to deep condition your hair, you get a little bit of olive oil and you put it in a little dish and you heat it up in the microwave for 15 seconds and you slather it on your hair. And that works as well or better than anything you have to pay a lot of money for.

[Elise Hu]

I need to, I need to try this especially on my daughter. I have a daughter who gets like very frizzy dry and the hair and it's really thick too. So maybe just like the Old home remedy. The old home remedy is probably what does the trick.

[Maris Kriseman]

I would also say that the way Detox shampoo is also really great for my hair.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Maris Kriseman]

And then the. The Good Genes Vitamin C oil.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, I've been looking for a new vitamin C serum. So Good Genes. That's the one you. And you wear. You put it on in the morning.

[Maris Kriseman]

At night, actually.

[Elise Hu]

And you put it on at night. Okay. Okay. Very good. Thanks for indulging us with that. I love that, you know, we're. We're having this conversation during the summer of 2025. Everything kind of feels fraught. We've talked about what you're doing personally, what's happening systemically, and then when I heard you talk about what it means to live a good life, one of those keys is connection. So is there anything that you've learned or you've changed about your approach now that you are in your 40s that has deepened your relationships with other people and deepened friendships or connection that you would want to share with the rest of us?

[Maris Kriseman]

Oh, that's. That's really great, too. You know, my friend Allison Libby just did a newsletter about getting small gifts for people you like just because. Oh, you know, spending $10 on a lip something. And that, to me, was just like a. Oh, yeah. Just wanting to brighten someone's day because you know them and love them is really excellent.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah, I really like that. I. One of my micro joys has been. I mentioned this to listeners earlier this year, has been going to Dollar Tree and buying a mylar balloon. Like, a mylar heart balloon.

[Maris Kriseman]

Oh, that's great.

[Elise Hu]

And I'll buy it for my house, like, for myself, but I should just buy people balloons.

[Maris Kriseman]

I feel like that's a YouTube video waiting to happen.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you for the tip. Thank you for the advice. How can folks find you Maris?

[Maris Kriseman]

You can go to my website, marischriseman.com and that's where you can sign up for my newsletter, which is called the Marist Review. And I'm also on Blue Sky Maris, and I'll be on book tour, so go to my website and you'll see all those dates.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Thank you so much for sitting down with me.

[Maris Kriseman]

Oh, Elise, thank you so much.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right. I'm so glad you got to talk to Maris, even though I wasn't able to be there. So glad that that happened. So last week, my intention was to just kind of make it through because I had a very intense week, and I did. I made it through. My son asked why he didn't come to the funeral. And I said, well, you know, but I was. It was a lot of travel and like a very short amount of time. Some long plane rides, then like a three hour drive from Boston. I said, and also, you know, the funeral was like two, almost two hours long. And you would have had to sit still and be quiet the whole time. And he goes, oh, yeah, it's good. I didn't go. I was like, yeah, it's good. You know, you're so self aware.

[Elise Hu]

It's so self aware.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's like, yeah, no, he did watch some of it, though. It's, it's on, it's streaming. So. Yeah. So this week, kind of like, you know, in her, in like, as I said before, sort of trying to channel her energy of like showing up and spending time with friends. My friend from out of town is here this whole week and I'm gonna see her tomorrow night and then I'm gonna see her Thursday night and, you know, just trying to, like, spend as much time with people as I can. So.

[Elise Hu]

Yay.

[Dory Shafrier]

How about you? Did you unpack your storage stuff?

[Elise Hu]

That's. That Storage Mountain is still exactly as it was last week when we recorded.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, dear.

[Elise Hu]

This is like a metaphor, I think, because the pile is so large, you just don't know where to begin. And every time you look at it, it's more daunting to tackle it. So I have not gotten into it though. I was traveling last weekend and Rob is back from Phoenix where he was. And so maybe now that I have some help, we can tackle it together. That is not going to be my intention, though. My intention for the forthcoming week, especially since I have some travel with the family coming up. We have our family trip coming up to Zion national park with thanks to our listener who sent suggestions for what to do is just to, like, really spend time with the girls and be present with the girls. I. There's so many of them and they're always around, but then I. I don't think that I'm fully present with them a lot of the time, especially during the school year when we're just rushing to our various activities and things. So this. I love unstructured time with the girls. So I'll just make that my intention to be really present for unstructured time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Very cool. All right, well, thanks everyone for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doria Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks, everyone. For listening.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bye.

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