Episode 359: The Joy of Writing and Ginger Juice with Jade Chang

Summary

Forever35, Episode 359: The Joy of Writing and Ginger Juice with Jade Chang

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Jade Chang (author of "A Time to Be Alive" and "The Wangs vs. the World")
Release Date: September 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Forever35 centers on self-care, friendships, creativity, and the delightfully low-key rituals that keep us grounded, featuring author Jade Chang. Doree and Elise are joined by Jade to discuss her new novel "A Time to Be Alive," the peculiar joys of gut health, the revival of her savory oatmeal obsession, and the complexities of comparison in adult friendships. The conversation blends practical, humorous self-care insights with a deep dive into writing, ambition, and navigating envy without shame.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Everyday Self-Care Practices

[14:40]

• Jade shares her straightforward and restorative self-care ritual: after coming home, she immediately lies down, often after removing most of her clothes, for even just a few minutes.

  • "My greatest self-care practice is every time I come home, I just lie down...I could do it for like three minutes and I feel restored...Highly recommend." — Jade Chang [14:40]

• Elise relates, revealing her love of working from bed and normalizing non-traditional “resting” workspaces.

  • "I usually work from bed and so I take my zoom meetings from bed.... Respect. Respect." — Elise Hu [15:32]

2. Gut Health & Food Intuition

[16:07]

• Jade expands on her gut health advocacy: recognizing how her digestive system influences her wellbeing, she avoids dairy, low-quality bread, and particularly beans (which “her gut does not like”). She emphasizes paying close attention to how specific foods feel in your own body, rather than following dietary trends.
  • "I really think that the way our digestion is going at any moment in our lives determines how we feel about everything in them, really." — Jade Chang [16:33]
  • "The ultimate decider should be how our guts feel." — Jade Chang [18:32]

3. The Magic of Savory Oatmeal (Porridge Discourse)

[18:36]

• Doree remembers Jade's once dream of opening a savory oatmeal cafe. Jade lights up, describing two favorite recipes:
  • Tomato Oatmeal: Oats, grape tomatoes, olive oil, salt, fried egg, optional greens, and chili crisp or sriracha.
  • Asian Oatmeal: Oats with sardines (in oil!), greens, eggs dropped straight in, finished with sesame oil, soy sauce, and chili crisp.
  • "Nothing makes me feel more alive than just...Yes." — Jade Chang [45:04]

4. The Inspiration Behind "A Time to Be Alive"

[22:01]

• Jade describes protagonist Lola as a composite of her communities, people navigating the tension between self-actualization and contributing meaningfully to the world.

  • "Every story you write is about you but it's also about everyone you've ever met...a world of friends that I've been in." — Jade Chang [22:21]

• The novel’s narrative gambit: Lola stumbles into becoming a self-help “guru,” allowing Jade to explore the making of modern gurus from the inside out—drawing inspiration from attending both TED and Oprah’s Super Soul Sunday, and real-life acquaintances who became “gurus” via viral moments.

  • "I was really interested in writing it from inside the rise [of a guru]." — Jade Chang [23:59]

5. The Art and Reality of Comparison Among Friends

[31:10]

• Elise notes a key theme: comparison, competition, and envy—especially among friends in creative fields.

  • Jade admits she hasn't personally faced much long-lasting jealousy in friendships. She normalizes minor flares of envy, seeing them as natural but cautions against repression:
    • "Anything that you try to deny festers." — Jade Chang [33:20]

• Doree and Elise share that getting older and more self-focused has softened their competitive edges, with Elise redefining career "success" as maximizing flexibility, not chasing status.

  • "My definition of success is so like anti-success...To me, success is like ultimate flexibility." — Elise Hu [35:49]

6. Writing, Creativity, and The Adaptation Game

[39:00]

• Elise asks Jade about creative projects beyond novels—TV work and essay writing. Jade’s honest: she's not good at short stories, finds TV development unpredictable but rewarding, and appreciates the skills gained even from projects that don’t make it to air.
  • "I got to take a paid masterclass...in kind of learning how to write something." — Jade Chang (on TV adaptation) [40:22]

7. Uplifting Reading: Finding Light Amidst Darkness

[41:53]

• Doree confesses she’s drawn to books that offer “lovely warm feelings,” not despair—something Jade consciously aims for in her work.
  • "I don’t want to write a book…I'm not interested in total escapism. I’m interested in something that reckons with reality… but also ultimately hopeful." — Jade Chang [42:42]

8. Intergenerational Remedies: The Power of Ginger Juice

[43:31]

• Elise prompts Jade about Taiwanese-American family health traditions. Jade shares her parents’ gospel of gut health, most notably her use of raw ginger juice (aided by a ginger press from Temu!). She extols the energizing magic of it, reporting a noticeable vitality boost.
  • "Nothing makes me feel more alive than just…[drinking ginger juice]." — Jade Chang [45:04]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It took me so long to write a book that I don’t think anyone could be that jealous of me because I’m so slow. Most people felt like, thank god she finally finished. Good for her." — Jade Chang [34:37]
• "Everyone wants to have written a book, but no one wants to actually, like, write the book." — Doree Shafrir (quoting Roxane Gay) [38:09]
• "If you try to deny the jealousy…that is ultimately going to be counterproductive." — Doree Shafrir [37:07]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [14:15] — Jade joins; shares self-care (lying down after coming home)
• [16:07] — Gut health philosophy; impact of digestion on well-being
• [18:36] — Jade’s savory oatmeal obsession and favorite recipes
• [22:01] — Inspiration for "A Time to Be Alive" and protagonist Lola
• [23:59] — The making of a guru: TED and Oprah compared
• [31:10] — Adult friendship, comparison, and handling jealousy
• [34:37] — Navigating envy and creative careers as writers
• [39:00] — Life in TV writing; "The Wangs Versus the World" adaptation
• [41:53] — Why Jade writes hopeful books
• [43:31] — Family food remedies and her ginger juice ritual

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Closing: Hosts' Intentions and Takeaways

[45:51+]

• Doree and Elise share weekly intentions: incremental decluttering and job searching (Doree), incorporating more strength training (Elise). Both emphasize sustainable, small steps as more effective than grand, overwhelming goals.

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Tone & Style

• Warm, self-aware, and humorous
• Blurring the line between friendly catch-up and earnest (yet down-to-earth) advice
• Non-judgmental and self-deprecating, especially regarding success, competition, and self-care quirks

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Summary for New Listeners

If you missed the episode, you'll walk away with practical, original self-care ideas (lie down more, trust your gut—literally, eat more ginger), honest talk about comparison and creativity, and a peek into how even “gurus” are winging it. Jade Chang’s wisdom and warmth shine, and Forever35 remains a haven for real talk about getting older, a little wiser, and a lot more accepting of yourself—and your ginger consumption.

Transcript

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[Dori Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dori Shafrier]

And today, later in the episode, we are talking to Jade Chang, the author of the new novel A Time to Be Alive and her previous novel the Wangs versus the World, which is one of my favorite books. When it came out. It came out around the same time as my novel Startup. And Jade is just so delightful. Stay tuned for you'll hear me ask her about her porridge restaurant idea.

[Elise Hu]

Ooh. Ooh. So, yes, Good teaser, good teaser. Thank you.

[Dori Shafrier]

Thank you. How's it going, Elise?

[Elise Hu]

It's going pretty well, except I am kind of trying to deal with this fig problem in my backyard.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, you have a fig problem?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, I have a giant fig tree. And unless I am picking figs nearly every day, then they just splatter onto the ground. They just like fall off whatever limbs and then there's just like flies everywhere because obviously figs are very sweet and juicy and yummy and I'm on an extended period without any nanny help. Our Nanny Ling Ling is on an Alaskan cruise.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, wow. Good for her.

[Elise Hu]

She's sending lots of pictures. It looks glorious. But nobody is here to help me pick the figs. Nobody wants to pick figs. And the reason why is because of the wasps. And all of the, you know, horticulturalists out there will know or the tree people out there know because, like, figs and wasps are intertwined. And so, you know, when you get up there to pick figs, occasionally you'll also disturb the wasps. And then you have like wasps just like flying at, buzzing at you out of a tree. And so Rob doesn't really like to do it. I will occasionally get out there and then the gardener helps. On the one day of the week the gardener comes, but still we have a bounty. I passed out figs in individual bags and, and little buckets at back to school night, and I still have fig problems. My friend Shay has made jars and jars of fig jam. I did a call out to my neighbors asking them to come over.

[Dori Shafrier]

I just thought, I got 99 problems. But a fig ain't one, but a fig is one. A fig is one of your 99 problems.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, I have 99 figs. Yeah, we'll invert that. I have 99 figs every day. And so I'm dealing with that. But yeah, this is an exciting time. We got done with the US Open, which was probably like, it was all chaos. It seemed like everybody was sauced up during the US Open. There was so much bad behavior. But good tennis and, you know, I.

[Dori Shafrier]

Just saw something about the ratings were like way up. The TV ratings were way up from, from last year.

[Elise Hu]

Ooh, great. So, yeah, I mean, there was a lot to watch. There was a lot of spectacle around the US Open this year.

[Dori Shafrier]

And so there was a lot of spectacle. The matches themselves, I would not say that there were that many, like, amazing close matches. Like, I feel like a lot of the matches were, seemed lopsided. There were a few, but there were also like, I mean, Alcaraz didn't drop a set till the final, you know.

[Elise Hu]

And then the final was pretty decisive. Like it wasn't one of their five set epics. Like they played at the French Open earlier this year. The French Open was crazy. And it lasted. It was like the second longest tennis match of all, all time.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, the women had some good, some good matches. But anyway, yes, US Open is over.

[Elise Hu]

And your season isn't over yet, though. You still have nationals coming up.

[Dori Shafrier]

Elise, my season never ends.

[Jade Chang]

Oh.

[Dori Shafrier]

It'S just year round recreational tennis Is year round, let me tell you. Well, I shouldn't say that. That's actually. Well, that is like sort of true and sort of not like we do. There aren't as many matches scheduled for like December, for example, but one of my other teams made sectionals, a different sectionals, and that's in December. So. So we're going to that. And then, you know, the 40 plus league starts up again in January. That is the. I mean, that's the amazing thing about living in Southern California. Like, yeah, you can play year round outside. And like, you do look at these other sections, because there's 17 sections all like across the country. They're the. The country is divided up into 17 sections. And like a lot of these places, you know, there's. They're all their leagues are like shoved into like a six month period because they don't have them in the winter because there aren't enough indoor courts or whatever, you know, And I'm like, oh, I am like, I am hashtag blessed.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah, you are. So when you're not playing tennis and you're not writing and you're not podcasting, how is the Marie condoing going? How is the organization effort?

[Dori Shafrier]

So I have been selling or giving away at least one item or like group of items every day.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Dori Shafrier]

That's like how I'm starting. Because there's just so much to get through that. I think part of my issue previously has been feeling like I need to do it all at once and it's just too daunting. So I'm kind of. I'm starting just by like chipping away at it. And I think sort of like getting in the habit of getting rid of some stuff. Like I had a chair, like a desk chair that I just been like putting all of the clothes that I wanted to get rid of on. I mean, that chair had been piled with clothes for probably two years. Like it there, it just was like permanently a pile of clothes. And I gave away most of them.

[Elise Hu]

Like, wow.

[Dori Shafrier]

At first I was gonna sell them and then I was like, who is like, I'm really going all this trouble to sell like an old Navy shirt for $3?

[Elise Hu]

Like, yeah, yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

Let me just see if someone. So I divided them into. Into bags where I did like one bag with some like tennis workout stuff. One bag that was just kind of like pants. There were a couple skirts, there was a top. And then I did one bag. I had a bunch of white clothes. Like, I had a pair of pants, I had a shirt, I had a Dress. I was like, this is a bag of white clothing.

[Elise Hu]

You classify it how you want, my friend. You just classify it however you want.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, it's a giveaway, right? It's a giveaway. That's the thing. I'm just like, here, just take it.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, right.

[Dori Shafrier]

And also try. I did give away, like, one. This, like, old Navy fleece that I just never worn, but for the most part, I'm. I'm trying to give stuff away in, like, bundles.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, good idea.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah. And also, you know, the sort of, like the corollary to all of that is also accumulating less stuff, so. Which I think I've been, like, pretty. Pretty good about. I definitely am much less, like, acquisitive than I used to be. So.

[Elise Hu]

That'Ll help. That'll help with the pile for sure.

[Dori Shafrier]

That'll help. That'll help. So, yeah. And then sometimes I sell stuff, like in parent. Like local parent groups.

[Elise Hu]

Speaking of parents, I should mention I want to shout out that I have a new parenting show.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Which I forgot to mention last week before it launched. Launched. But it has launched now. It is a show from a kids company. Those of you with young kids, like between three to eight, should know about their books. They do board books, like a kid's book about anxiety, a kid's book about racism, a kid's book about gender, all sorts of ways to. They're board books to that you can read with your kids or have your kids read that help break down complicated topics. And for the first time, a kids co is making a podcast for parents to help us parents talk with our kids about fraught topics of the day. And I'm very lucky that I get to host it. It's called Raising Us. It's wherever you listen to podcasts now. And it's also a YouTube show, so you can just subscribe to the YouTube channel because as part of the whole podcast to video shaping everything. And it's a lot of fun. Like, we open with fatphobia and bodies and how we talk to our kids about bodies and how bodies are always changing. Virginia Soul Smith comes on. She's really awesome about the fat talk. I know she's been on this show, too. And then we're gonna handle things that are very relevant, like how to talk to your kids about democracy, since we're in this time where democracy is under threat, how to talk to your kids about climate change, video games, all sorts of stuff. So it's called Raising Us. I'm really excited about it. I know I kind of casually mentioned it in passing when I was working on it and some of y' all listeners asked what it was and that's what it is. It's called Raising us. And so that's out now. But first, back to our show. We have so much fun content planned ahead later in this episode for you.

[Dori Shafrier]

We sure do, Elise. Before we get to our great conversation with Jade, let me just remind everyone that you can Visit our website forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show. You can follow us on Instagram at february35podcast. We also have our [e-mail] Forever35 we do our weekly casual chats. We do our monthly pop culture recommendation episodes. There's just a lot going on over there so check it out at patreon.com forever35 oh also we do ad free episodes. So if you want ad free episodes you can can get those on our Patreon. Our favorite products are shopmy us forever35 our newsletter is at forever35podcast.com newsletter and you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and Elise, would you like to introduce Jade?

[Elise Hu]

I am delighted to Jade Chang is a writer who is out with a new novel called what a Time to Be Alive. Her debut novel, the Wangs versus the World won the VCU Cabell First Novelist Award and been published in a dozen countries. Her journalism and essays have recently appeared in the Best American Food Writing and in the New York Times and Los Angeles Times magazines. This new book asks if we can look honestly at the world and still love it. And the answer is a brilliant resounding yes. It's coming out really soon, September 30th and she also writes for Film and TV. Jade lives here in Los Angeles and.

[Dori Shafrier]

We'Ll be right back with Jade.

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[Dori Shafrier]

Jade, welcome to Forever 35. It's so nice to see you. Hi.

[Jade Chang]

Hi, Dori. Hi, Elise. It's so nice to see you both.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh my gosh.

[Jade Chang]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Dori Shafrier]

Truly our pleasure. As you may know, we start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. Is there something that you are doing right now that you would consider self care?

[Jade Chang]

I feel like I am lucky enough to do a lot of self care because I really do feel like whatever is happening in my body just affects everything. You know this is going to sound a little ridiculous and very elementary, but honestly, my greatest self care practice is every time I come home, I just lie down. I just immediately take off, honestly, most of my clothes and lie down and it doesn't have to be for that long. You know, I could do it for like three minutes and I feel restored. If I, if I have the time, I'll do like a nice just like 12 to 15 minute stare at the ceiling. Just be very calm kind of. Yeah. Space in the day. It's great. Highly recommend.

[Elise Hu]

It's so good. Yes. There is nothing to be ashamed of because I like to be proned out most of the day. In fact, I'm the only, the only time I'm really seated for work is because I'm podcasting and podcasting in front of the camera. Yeah, I usually work from bed and so I take my zoom meetings from bed. I do calls from bed. I really love working from bed. It's my office, but my kids are like, why are you always in bed? And I'm like, it's because I work here. This is where I work. I've been doing that since like 2020. So. Respect. Respect.

[Jade Chang]

We should have done this whole podcast lying down.

[Elise Hu]

I know. Now that I know, like yeah, two out of three of us. Two out of three of us @ least. I also did a little research and was listening to some Jade Chang deep cuts and learned that you have excellent gut health and are a big component of gut health. Is that right? Say more. Say more.

[Jade Chang]

Okay. I really think that the way our digestive, our digestion is going at any moment in our lives determines how we feel about every. Everything in them really. When I Was saying that what happens in the body determines how we feel about everything. What I meant was a gut. I just didn't know if we were ready to go there yet, but I'm glad we're going there.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, we can go there. We're going there.

[Jade Chang]

Good. I love it. This is very exciting. This is exactly what I was hoping for from Forever35. Yeah. I think one is luck. Right. I definitely. I think some of your gut biome you were just born with, but I think also being pretty conscious about how different foods affect you is important. I cannot eat that much dairy, so I just don't. I, you know, don't eat a lot of bread that's not delicious. If you give me like a freshly baked loaf of sourdough, I will totally eat it. But, you know, you're like everyday sandwich bread. I just don't. I don't tend to partake. And I feel like if you have a little bit of gut luck on your side, I do think making those decisions. Yeah, it does. It kind of does everything.

[Elise Hu]

And do you just mean gut health, as in, like, keeping it regular?

[Jade Chang]

Yeah. And also knowing what you can digest and what you can't. For example, beans. I hate them. I don't. My gut does not like them. For so long, I tried to be on the bean train. I know it's supposed to be so good for you. Everyone talks about is the most ethical alternative, I think, but I just don't like them. We often will make eating choices based on kind of what we think we should do. And I really think that the ultimate decider should be how our guts feel.

[Dori Shafrier]

So since we're talking about food.

[Jade Chang]

Yes.

[Dori Shafrier]

I was remembering that, like, years ago you were obsessed with porridge.

[Jade Chang]

Yes. My God. I. This is so funny. I was just thinking the other day, oh, I'm on book tour again. Maybe I can start my savory oatmeal for president campaign again, which.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes, that's right. You were. You wanted to open a, like a cafe that sold savory oatmeal, like, exclusively, right?

[Jade Chang]

Yes. Dory, I'm so impressed this.

[Dori Shafrier]

This has stuck with. I mean, this. This, like, really. This clearly really made an impression because.

[Jade Chang]

This was a long time ago.

[Dori Shafrier]

And I told Elise this and she was like, huh. So I.

[Elise Hu]

Well, just because I didn't know. Yeah. I didn't know if you were talking about, like, the Chinese kanji or Korean juke. Are you talking about juke or kanji? Or are you talking about a totally different concoction?

[Jade Chang]

Okay, so I am not talking about a rice porridge, because those take too long. I love them. Juk is probably my. One of my favorite things to eat ever. But what I'm talking about is savory oatmeal, because. Okay, here's what it is. Rolled oats. You cook them. They are so quick to cook, right? You use a large amount of water because you want. Not like soupy, but you want it to be, like, soft, right? And then I have two favorite kinds. Okay. The first one, really simple. You put little grape tomatoes in there with the oats, they boil. You mush the grape tomatoes so they kind of burst and have all that delicious tomatoey juice in there. And you also olive oil, a good olive oil, some salt, a liberal amount of salt, fried egg on top. Sometimes I put. Sometimes I put some greens in, like, at the end to kind of soften them. And with. You could do a little chili crisp on top. You can do a little sriracha on top. Delicious. It's so good. And then I also have an Asian version, which sometimes, if I'm feeling. This is. This is a real. Okay, this is my actual favorite one. But I know that it's. It's harder to get people on board with this version. Okay. It is cut the oatmeal, greens, sardines, because they are so good for you. I think they're delicious. I love the ones that come in the oil. You know, you like, mix it all in there, and then you can just kind of like make a little pit for the. You crack two eggs in two little pits and let it, you know, just let the egg, like, steam until it's. Until it's done. And then I do like sesame oil, soy sauce, a lot of chili crisp on top. It's so good. It's so fast. It's so delicious. I just eat it out of the pot that I cook it in.

[Elise Hu]

You're welcome to come over here to the west side. I make me some salty oatmeal in my kitchen. If you ever want to come, I.

[Jade Chang]

Would be happy to. It would be an honor. It is part of my gospel.

[Elise Hu]

Love that. Well, you are going to be pretty busy coming up because you've got a new book coming out very soon this month. It's called what a Time to Be Alive. The main character, very lovable main character who's kind of flailing, named Lola. What was the inspiration for her and this story?

[Jade Chang]

Oh, okay. The inspiration for Lola herself, I think, think is. Look, I think in a way, every story you ever write is about you but it's also about kind of everyone you've ever met in your life as well. Right. So I do feel like Lola as a character is very much about, I would say, a world of friends that I've been in. You know, it's really like a composite of so many of so many people that I've known and loved and so many people that I've gone through those, those kind of years of trying to figure yourself out, trying to figure out what matters to you, trying to figure out how to kind of be a decent citizen in the world, but also have some fun, you know, I think, and also make a living. I think all those things turn out to be a lot more difficult than we think they will be. I wasn't raised with religion. I have never really found a thing like that that I've been like, yes, that's let me be part of it. And I haven't exactly wanted to, but I've been very interested in, in the ability to do that or in the desire to do that. Yeah. So I think those were among the things that I was thinking about. And I have always been really interested in kind of gurudom.

[Elise Hu]

We should mention that Lola, because of a series of events, kind of makes herself into a guru.

[Jade Chang]

Yes. She is kind of thrust into a position where she kind of accidentally gains the platform to be able to make herself into a self help guru. And I, I also feel like I've never seen that story from the guru's pov. You know, I've only seen that story from right from the perspective of a follower or from someone who is kind of watching them askance and from afar. So yeah, I was really interested in writing it from inside the Rise.

[Elise Hu]

Also I found one of these chapters particularly interesting because she goes, which one?

[Jade Chang]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Given, you know, I work for TED as a contractor and have gone to so many teds. Tell us about why you worked that in, what it was like and you know, kind of what you wanted to say there.

[Jade Chang]

Yeah. So I was lucky enough to go to TED twice, I think, and it was in, I believe, believe 2016 and 2017. So really, really at the height of our, I mean, not that TED has not remained extremely influential, but I think that was really the height of our kind of mainstream. Like, oh, wow, there is this conference, let's all watch these talks. It was really, I think that's when one of Renee Brown's first talks came out. It definitely was a constant part of the conversation that I was in at least. And I think going to TED has Such an impact on me because.

[Dori Shafrier]

I.

[Jade Chang]

Always thought there was a divide between things like self help, you know, things that we kind of see as being like, for the girls a little bit, and then all these. Not that there aren't plenty of women who are TED speakers, obviously, you know, Brene Brown, for example. But I think TED really is seen as this conference of, like, scientists, tech leaders. I think they always use the term world changers, very often.

[Elise Hu]

Bros. Yeah.

[Jade Chang]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

There's.

[Jade Chang]

There's a bro aspect to TED for sure. And I went there right around the same time that I also went to Oprah Super Soul Sunday.

[Dori Shafrier]

Amazing.

[Jade Chang]

And what I got from the double bill was, oh, wow, this is the same work. You know, this is this the act of trying to bring someone into the world of your idea, Whether that idea is a scientific innovation or whether that idea is a revelation you had as a sex addict who turned into horseback riding. Like one of the people that I saw at Oprah Super Bowl Sunday. It's the. The mechanism of it is shockingly similar. And I think once I saw that, I was like, wow, okay. I have a different understanding of it now. I really kind of know how to shape the. The rise of my guru.

[Dori Shafrier]

What did you like? Was there anything or anyone that you kind of modeled her on or had in your mind while you were writing her?

[Jade Chang]

No one specific, but I will say that I have gotten to see two really good friends kind of have a similar trajectory in their lives. Yeah, my friend Amanda Yates Garcia, who is known as the Oracle of Los Angeles. Yeah. I really got to see kind of how she stepped into a certain kind of power, how she was able to use social media to kind of, you know, work with her interests. And also just in the day to day, being out in the world, how occasionally people would recognize her and respond in a really kind of, you know, in a real like, oh, my God, I'm seeing a celebrity kind of way. And. Yeah, and it was so fascinating. And then Another friend, Tracy McMillan, she and I are not as close as Amanda and I, but we've been friends and have known each other for a really long time. Dory, I think you know Tracy, right?

[Dori Shafrier]

I've met her at one of those old ladies, like lady writer.

[Jade Chang]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So her kind of career as a. As a kind of relationship advice guru really took off because she wrote a. She wrote a Huffington Post article, and it went crazy. These things can really change your life in an instant. And it is really your choice whether what direction you're going to take it. And it could go lots of directions. She could have written that article and then decided that she hated dating and never wanted to talk about it again. You know, I mean, but instead she parlayed it into so much more.

[Dori Shafrier]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

The kids are off to school and I'm left feeling that nostalgia of a fresh start to the school year. The urge to learn something new. Thankfully, I don't have to do anything more than just open up my Masterclass app and hop into a lesson about my skin from the original series skin Health with Dr. Shereen Idris. It's 10 minutes. I learned something new about how to care for the largest organ on our bodies and satisfy that urge to learn without the nuisance of actually going back to school. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. With plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, you'll get unlimited access to over 200 plus classes taught by the world's best best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. With Masterclass, you get thousands of bite sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] forever35 plus every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee, so there's no risk. That's 15% [e-mail] forever35 masterclass.com forever35.

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[Elise Hu]

As you talk about your own friends, this gets into one of the themes. There are many themes, but one of the themes of what a time to be alive. Which is comparison and envy and competition among friends. You got to explore it. Was there anything you wanted to say about it or anything that you've sort of or insight that you've gotten over the years now that you were an adult and Lola was like 31 or 32 at the time, just a very different time in her life?

[Jade Chang]

That's a good question. I definitely didn't go in with something I wanted to say. I think it's, you know, it's interesting. I find like competition And a little jealousy in friendships to be such an interesting topic. Right. Like, whenever people. People write about it, I just, like, lap it up. Like, I. I'm, like, happy to read it and. But to be honest, and I'm really not just saying this, I personally have had very little of it, like, in my actual friendships. Like, I feel like I've been really lucky to be friends with people who I don't. I have generally felt very mutually happy, you know, for them and with them. And I've felt really a lot of, like, support and. And joy in those relationships. I think that competition is something that we love to talk about and we love to diagnose. And I think that sometimes. Right. And I think sometimes we don't actually have to make it such an issue. I think there's nothing wrong with in your own heart feeling a little flare of jealousy when you hear about something that you want going to someone else. When you hear about someone, you know, doing a little better than you in a moment. I think that when we try to absolutely deny those feelings and pretend that they don't exist, then, you know, you can't suppress anything. Right. Like, anything that you try to deny festers. Like, that is just a rule of life. Yeah. If you are someone who feels like you can't have any of that feeling and be a good friend. I don't think that's true. You know, I think that. Yeah. But it was so fun to write it. And I really, really wanted to write a friendship where they, of course, you know, Lola and Cilly have been friends almost their entire lives. They are both people who are working in artistic fields. Things are so subjective. There is very little kind of objective success. And so there's always going to be little flares of comparison and jealousy. And yet I wanted to write what I felt was a very realistic friendship where those little things don't stop you from being friends and in fact, don't necessarily become some, like, giant, you know, debilitating argument or anything like that. Yeah, yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

I mean, you're friends with a lot of writers, and writers sort of are sort of notoriously, like, have petty jealousies while also being happy for their friends, but also being jealous. So I'm wondering how you've navigated that.

[Jade Chang]

You know, I think it took me so long to write a book that I don't think anyone could be that jealous of me because I'm so slow. And so I think. I think most people felt like, thank God she finally finished. Good for her. We were worried. Like, I really think that was more of the. Yeah, I think that was more the response. And I, I mean, I, I feel like this is like I'm bragging or something, but I don't really feel like lasting jealousies that much. Like, yes, I'll get a little flare of like, oh, I wanted that, you know, but nothing that like, lasts for a long time. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I felt like with these characters, they're just in such a different time of their lives too. So so many of these, so many of like, concerns just like being able to get out of her apartment and not live there anymore are not things that, you know, are. Are so relevant.

[Jade Chang]

But do you guys feel like your kind of relationship to that has changed as you've gotten older?

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes, at least for me.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Well, I, My definition of success is so like anti success. So like, I have always wanted my career to go in the direction of not having to work anymore. Like, I've always. To me, success is like ultimate flexibility. Right. And so. Which is very different than like being the anchor of the Today show, which is what so many of my peers coming out of college wanted to do.

[Jade Chang]

Sure.

[Elise Hu]

So I don't confront the problem in the same way because my, My North Star is so different. My North Star is retirement.

[Jade Chang]

Oh, God, yes. Joy, what about you say, or.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, I think I just, I don't know, I've. Maybe it's because I've just gotten more like inward or self focused that I'm like, I don't have time to like, be, you know, not that I was ever like, tracking people's careers, but I'm just, I'm so like, oh. Like sometimes by the time I realize someone has a new book out, it's been out for like six months and I'm just sort of like, oh, that happened. Like, I. I feel like I've just been in my own world a little bit. Which means that you just, you're not.

[Elise Hu]

Even like, you don't have. Yeah, you don't. You don't get caught up looking over exactly which shoulder.

[Jade Chang]

Right.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes. Which I think all. Which I think, which I do think is a product of getting older because I don't feel as compelled to be like, hyper focused on what everyone's doing all the time. Which I feel like there was a period like in my, you know, late 20s, early 30s, where I was like, oh, that person just got a new job at. Now no one's getting new jobs, so it doesn't really matter. But. Yeah, but you know, I do think, like, one thing that you said did I mean, a lot of what you're saying resonates with me, but one thing in particular, which is like, if you try to, like, deny the jealousy, if then that is ultimately going to be counterproductive. And so I think I have tried to allow myself to be like, oh, you know what? I'm happy for this person, but I'm also kind of jealous that, like, their book became a number one New York Times bestseller. Like, they deserve it, but I can still be a little jealous. You know what I mean?

[Jade Chang]

Totally. Yes, I agree.

[Dori Shafrier]

I just always go back to that thing that I think Roxane Gay tweeted it once. It was something like, everyone wants to have written a book, but no one wants to actually, like, write the book.

[Jade Chang]

You know what I mean? Yes, that is extremely true.

[Dori Shafrier]

And I try to sort of separate that where I'm like, do I just want the. The bestseller recognition part of me?

[Jade Chang]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

I don't. Do I actually want to sit down and like, do the work that it took to write that book? Like, maybe not, you know, so like kind of developing that self awareness is an ongoing process, but I don't know.

[Jade Chang]

Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think it is all about us just figuring out, like, what it is you actually want in life.

[Dori Shafrier]

Totally.

[Jade Chang]

Yeah. Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And mine is to not work.

[Jade Chang]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

So, Jade, obviously books aren't the only thing that you write. You've also written for television. So I just wanted to hear how things were going in your creative world and what you're excited about, what you're working on.

[Jade Chang]

Oh, yeah. I mean, in this exact moment, you know, we're kind of leading up to the release of the book, so I feel like I'm very much in a. In a kind of like the follow through on the free throw moment. Trying to get it all out there. But I really wanted to write more interesting nonfiction before I kind of dive into a new book. So playing with a couple of things I have tried. I also, in this weird period, I tried writing a short story. Turns out, just like I thought when I was in college, I can't write a short story. And I don't know why. I find it really difficult.

[Elise Hu]

And you don't have to. You write novels like television shows. Like, you don't have to be a master of every genre.

[Jade Chang]

Yes, that's true. They're just so much shorter. They would take so much less time. That's the main appeal for me. Yes.

[Dori Shafrier]

What is going on, if anything, with the adaptation for the Wangs versus the world?

[Jade Chang]

Oh, nothing at the moment. Yeah. When the Wangs came out in 2016, I was very lucky to sell it to Hulu as a show. John Chu was attached to direct the pilot. I wrote the pilot. It was all great. But as with so many shows, it didn't end up getting picked up. But, yeah, I think I, at this point, kind of look at it as like a. I got to take a paid masterclass, you know, in kind of learning how. Yeah. In learning how to write something. And then I've gotten to work for a couple of really great shows since then. So. Yeah. So hopefully at some point in the future, you know, hopefully with this book, fingers crossed something like that will transpire. And. Yeah, it's just, you know, we think that journalism is so uncertain. Film and TV is so uncertain at the moment. It's really wild. So really wild. Yeah. Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

I loved your new book. I also really loved Wings vs. The World.

[Jade Chang]

Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Jade Chang]

Thank you so much. I appreciate it a lot.

[Dori Shafrier]

Such a. Such a great. Such a great book. I didn't have time. I was gonna go back and reread Wings vs. The World. I didn't have time. But I. But I want to do that again because it. I just remember it being, like, such a. Such a delightful read.

[Jade Chang]

Thank you. Well, I feel like being read is already a real honor. Being reread is such an honor, honestly.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, you know, I mean, as I've expressed to Elise, I just, like, I can't. I've just gotten to a point. Maybe it's the world, maybe it's my age or. But I can't read anything too heavy or depressing. And I just remember reading your book and having such, like, lovely, warm feelings, and it's like, oh, I want to. I want to, like, have those feelings again. So maybe I'll go back and read it.

[Jade Chang]

I love that. And, you know, that is always my goal. Like, I feel like the world is nuts. Like, there's so much that we have to handle and care about and try to solve all the time.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Jade Chang]

And I feel like my goal is always to write something that does not deny that, you know? Like, I don't want to write a book that's. I'm not interested in total escapism. I'm interested in something that reckons with, like, the reality of the world, but also does take, like, ultimately a hopeful view of things, because, in part, because that is how I actually feel. And then also, I feel like that is the only way we're gonna get through everything. Life, you know?

[Dori Shafrier]

I mean. Yes, I do.

[Jade Chang]

Yeah. It really is.

[Elise Hu]

So speaking of getting through and finding a way through, we want to kind of end where we started, since this is a show about how we take care of ourselves.

[Jade Chang]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

I'm curious because you and I both are Taiwanese, American, or my mom is Taiwanese. Do you have any remedies or products that your parents or your grandparents pass down to you that you still use or swear by and share with your friends?

[Jade Chang]

I think my whole gut health philosophy is quite Chinese slash Taiwanese. You know, I eat a lot of ginger, garlic, spring onions, like, herb, like fresh herbs. I do think eating all of those things, it's so much better than taking vitamins, in my opinion. But also, that's very much like, you know, part of my parents brainwashing as well. And honestly, eating raw ginger is probably my, like, probably one of the number one things that I have taken from them. They, my parents. I'm so sorry to advocate for buying anything from Temu for buying, you know, plastic, but I will say that they bought me a ginger press and. Okay. Yes. And you can just chop up the ginger, put it right in there. You don't have to peel it, and it gives you fresh ginger juice. And honestly, nothing makes me feel more alive than just, just. Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Jade Chang]

I love it.

[Dori Shafrier]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

So strong.

[Jade Chang]

Yeah. I don't know if that's exactly Taiwanese. I do think the eating of all those, like, fresh alliums and herbs and things is. But I don't know if the ginger juice itself is. But it's for sure. My parents, I definitely, I would say, learned it from them, and I love it.

[Elise Hu]

And you have the gut health to show for it.

[Jade Chang]

Exactly.

[Elise Hu]

Jade Chang, thank you so much. Thank you for coming on and talking with us.

[Jade Chang]

Thank you for having me. This is such a pleasure.

[Dori Shafrier]

This is really fun.

[Jade Chang]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, that was such a delightful conversation and it was nice for me also to be able to reconnect with Jade.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. And now it's time for the intention zone. Dora, we kind of already talked about this. In the start of the show, your intention was about decluttering, and it sounds like you did start decluttering.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, you know, I'm. I'm looking at this intention from last week, and I am noticing that it says start decluttering. Like, I feel like I set. I set the. The bar very manageably low. Like, it didn't say declutter my house. It was like, just start. Just start decluttering.

[Jade Chang]

Does it feel good?

[Elise Hu]

Does it feel like, hey, I've gotten some incremental decluttering Done.

[Jade Chang]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

I mean, you know, it's slow, but like I am looking over at this chair and there, there are still a couple things on it, but like it, it's like most of it is gone. So that's exciting. And I am sort of like looking around my office being like, okay, what is going to be the thing today? You know, so that's exciting. So this coming week, kind of in the same spirit of the incremental decluttering, I'm also trying to do like incremental job searching, like setting very manageable goals for myself, like reach out to three people about just reconnecting and advice. Or you know, apply to two jobs. Like, I, I feel like anytime I set a goal that's like, like apply to a hundred jobs or like, you know, it's like, well, that's not happening.

[Jade Chang]

Right, right.

[Dori Shafrier]

So that's kind of where I'm at. And if anyone listening has any jobs for me, get in touch.

[Elise Hu]

I feel like all the jobs and that's a really good call out and an important call out because I feel like all the jobs that really people end up finding these days or find fulfilling are through people that they know or second or third degree relations rather than just applying cold applying through the HR software or HR portal or whatever it is.

[Dori Shafrier]

So the, the woman that I'm like sort of working with to help me, she's not like a recruiter, she's more like a career coach. But she said post pandemic, 80% of jobs are found through like a network. And that can even just mean someone at a company, like flagging your resume. Yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean like, you know, someone you're close with. But she, her point was more just like you have to sort of lean on these connections that you have.

[Elise Hu]

So that makes sense.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

So mine last week was just mindfulness and I did have like more moments of reflection where I actually like just took a beat. And so I think I did that. I, I definitely improved on the week before where I was just like snapping at my kids non stop and Luna was like, you're so mean. And I was like, what of it?

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Jade Chang]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And so, so I definitely corrected from that previous course.

[Dori Shafrier]

Corrected.

[Elise Hu]

Yep, yep, exactly where I've just been appreciating them. And this week it's going to be strength because I've done a pretty good job of like going out and hitting tennis balls a couple times a week and maintaining my running, but I haven't lifted weights or done any of that tough mega former which I hate doing because I have weak glutes as we all know. And then every time I do do strength I then am sore for two or three days after and then I don't want to do it again. But if I just did it regularly I wouldn't have this problem. So I'm putting strength on as my intention.

[Dori Shafrier]

Great. Love it. All right everybody, Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our Project Manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everybody.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time.

[Dori Shafrier]

Bye.

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