Episode 362: To Know A Relaxed Woman with Nicola Jane Hobbs

Summary

Podcast Summary: Forever35 - Episode 362: To Know A Relaxed Woman with Nicola Jane Hobbs

Release Date: July 28, 2025

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Nicola Jane Hobbs
Description: In this episode, co-hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve into the concept of the "Relaxed Woman" with author and psychologist Nicola Jane Hobbs. They explore the societal pressures women face, the importance of relaxation, and practical steps towards cultivating a more relaxed and empowered life.

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Introduction

The episode begins with a brief introduction of the show's format, distinguishing between full-length Monday episodes and mini Wednesday episodes. Elise Hu welcomes both new and returning listeners, setting a warm and inclusive tone for the discussion.

Guest Introduction: Nicola Jane Hobbs

Doree Shafrir formally introduces Nicola Jane Hobbs, highlighting her viral Instagram post that sparked conversations about the lack of "relaxed women" in societal narratives. Nicola's book, The Relaxed Woman: Reclaim, Rest, and Live an Empowered, Joy-Filled Life, is discussed as a continuation of her mission to redefine relaxation for women.

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "The relaxed woman is a woman who is free. Free to rest, free to cry, free to make mistakes and ask for help…" [16:03]

Self-Care Practices: Slowing Down

The conversation kicks off with a discussion about personal self-care practices. Nicola emphasizes the importance of slowing down in various aspects of daily life, from routine chores to mental processes.

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "Everything from how quickly I do the washing up to when I'm walking to even... slowing down thinking, slowing down breathing." [14:56]

Defining the "Relaxed Woman"

Elise Hu prompts Nicola to articulate the essence of a "Relaxed Woman," leading to a profound definition that transcends conventional notions of relaxation associated with spas and wellness products.

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "The relaxed woman is a woman who is free... to trust herself, to care for herself, to be herself." [16:03]

Nicola explains that this definition emerged from her observations and research as a psychologist, noting that many women equate their worth with productivity, leading to guilt when resting.

Understanding Stress: Generalized Unsafety Theory of Stress (GUTS)

Nicola introduces the Generalized Unsafety Theory of Stress (GUTS), which posits that humans are in a constant state of stress unless they perceive safety. This contrasts with traditional stress theories that focus on specific threats triggering the stress response.

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "Our stress response is always switched on unless we feel safe and then it switches off." [21:12]

This theory underscores the need to increase sources of safety in our lives to facilitate genuine relaxation.

Recognizing and Overcoming 'Shoulds'

The hosts discuss the pervasive "shoulds" ingrained in societal expectations, which hinder women from embracing relaxation without guilt. Nicola suggests that shame is a key indicator of living by these internalized rules.

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "If we're experiencing a lot of shame, then that shame points away that we're living by shoulds." [19:44]

The Importance of Community and Relationships

Nicola emphasizes that becoming a relaxed woman is not an isolated journey. Building and nurturing relationships provide the support necessary to feel safe and reduce feelings of aloneness.

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "We can only trust that we can rest and that it's safe to rest if there are people there who can carry the mental load for us." [33:18]

This communal approach fosters a culture where relaxation is valued and supported collectively.

Practical Steps: The Journey to Becoming a Relaxed Woman

Nicola outlines a neurosequential journey inspired by Bruce Perry, which includes:

1. Restoration of Inner Resources: Engaging in various forms of rest, not limited to sleep. This involves integrating comfort into daily life without significant time investment.

2. Regulating the Nervous System: Establishing rhythms and practices that signal safety to the nervous system, such as rhythmic walking or music.

3. Nurturing Relationships: Building secure attachments and community support systems.

4. Releasing Limiting Beliefs: Letting go of internalized "shoulds" and unworthy feelings.

5. Realizing Dreams: Pursuing meaningful goals that align with personal values.

6. Joining the Relaxed Revolution: Advocating for and embodying a culture of relaxation and empowerment.

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "This isn't a to-do list that we can complete. It's more like we are on this journey together forever." [26:31]

Role Modeling and Social Impact

The discussion highlights the significance of role modeling in changing societal norms. By embracing relaxation, women can inspire others and challenge the stigmatization of rest as laziness.

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "If I relax, it gives other women permission to do the same." [36:20]

This ripple effect contributes to a broader cultural shift towards valuing rest and well-being.

Hosts' Personal Intentions

Doree and Elise share their personal intentions related to the theme of the episode, fostering a sense of community and shared journey among listeners.

• Elise Hu: "My intention was to get dressed every day, which helped me start my mornings with a more put-together look." [43:26]

• Doree Shafrier: "I want to have a fun weekend with my tennis team, focusing on enjoyment rather than winning." [42:30]

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with gratitude towards Patreon supporters and a heartfelt acknowledgment of Nicola's insights. The hosts reinforce the episode's theme by reflecting on the calming influence of their conversation with Nicola.

• Elise Hu: "Jillian Bowman, Brianne Macy, Elizabeth Holland..." [45:06] (Acknowledgment of Patreon supporters)

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Key Takeaways:

• Redefining Relaxation: Moving beyond traditional notions of relaxation to embrace a holistic, value-driven approach.

• Understanding Stress: Recognizing that constant stress is a default state can shift the focus towards creating safety and moments of peace.

• Community Support: Building strong relationships is essential for individual and collective relaxation and empowerment.

• Practical Steps: Incorporating small, sustainable practices can lead to significant changes in one's ability to relax and live authentically.

• Cultural Shift: Advocating for societal changes that prioritize rest and well-being over relentless productivity.

Notable Quotes:

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "Our stress response is always switched on unless we feel safe and then it switches off." [21:12]

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "The relaxed woman is a woman who is free... to trust herself, to care for herself, to be herself." [16:03]

• Nicola Jane Hobbs: "If we don't talk about it, then it kind of doesn't matter and it gets pushed to the side." [41:39]

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Resources:

• Nicola Jane Hobbs on Social Media: @nicolajanehobbs

• Book: The Relaxed Woman: Reclaim, Rest, and Live an Empowered, Joy-Filled Life by Nicola Jane Hobbs

• Website: therelaxedwoman.com

Connect with Forever35:

• Website: forever35podcast.com

• Instagram: @forever35podcast

• Patreon: patreon.com/forever35

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This episode of Forever35 provides invaluable insights into the societal pressures impeding women's ability to relax and offers actionable strategies to cultivate a more restful and empowered life. Nicola Jane Hobbs' expertise and compassionate approach serve as a guiding light for listeners seeking to redefine relaxation on their own terms.

Transcript

[Hannah]

Hey guys, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. You know, I love beauty and that's why I go to Sephora. It's not just shopping, it's like a glam experience. The beauty advisors actually get beauty, unlike those big box stores and they give me all the advice I need. And I love going with the products you can only find at Sephora, like my new favorite Kayali fragrance, my perfect shade of Haus Labs foundation, and finally restocked my Laneige lip mask. All with the help of real experts. Oh, and if you haven't tried Day shampoo, go try it. It's a game changer. Sephora isn't just a store, it's the beauty destination. Go. You'll thank me later.

[Dory Shafrier]

This episode is brought to you by Earth Animal. Have you ever been overwhelmed at the pet store looking at dog treats and you're faced with a wall of ears, hooves, mystery meat, and then rawhide? It looks harmless, but if you know people with dogs, then you probably know someone whose dog had a bad experience with rawhide. But now there's Earth animals. No hide chews, no rawhide, no nasties. Just simple, sustainable ingredients and an extra plus no awful smell plus no hide chews actually last. Get 25% off no hide. With code [e-mail] give them a try. But remember to always supervise chewing, subject to availability terms and conditions apply. See earthanimal.com for details. Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu, and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums for any of our new listeners. I just want to say this is a Monday episode. This is a full episode. We have two kinds. We have Monday episodes and Wednesday episodes. And Monday episodes are full episodes. Which is to say we chat at the top of the 45 minutes or hour that we spend together, and then most of the episode is an interview with a very special guest. And then Wednesdays we have mini episodes. I'm only saying this because we might have some new listeners who are joining us this summer. And Wednesday episodes are my favorite kind because we get to take audience questions that people like you call in with, text in with, write in with. And those episodes are really kind of all over the place depending on what kind of questions that you write us about. People have written in about, like, more serious topics like miscarriage and friend breakups, and then they've also written about like dish towels and my dilemma in which my daughters keep stealing my charging cables and, you know, more ephemera.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

But welcome in. The water's warm. We just want to welcome any folks that are joining us for the first time. And welcome back to all of our listeners who have been riding hard with us for many years.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, yes, yes. Just stretching. You just sigh deeply.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, no, I'm stretching. You know, podcasting. We've been podcasting hard.

[Dory Shafrier]

We've been podcasting hard.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. I'm just creaky. I'm getting creaky. At the end of our episodes, we do an intention and I'll just preview. My intention's gonna be about stretching. It's going to be about stretching. I need to stretch.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, someone I played tennis against recently was saying that every Sunday she goes and gets stretched at Stretch Lab.

[Elise Hu]

Which is what a dream.

[Dory Shafrier]

I know. I was like, I'm intrigued.

[Elise Hu]

How expensive is this? Because it is around the cost of a brow wax. I'm doing it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, I looked it up. I had to like sign up for a, an account. And then of course they texted me like right away and I was like, oh, you're so annoying already. But they do have like a, a first time, like user deal. But then they really, I think it seems like they really are, are like pushing a membership kind of thing. Um, these are their memberships. And this is probably, this is applicable to Los Angeles. I don't know how much it costs in other cities. So you can get four 25 minute stretches per month for and $9. So like 50 bucks. A little more than $50.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Four 50 minute stretches per month is $349. Eight 25 minute stretches per month is $359. And then eight 50 minute stretches is $649. Or you can buy three 25 minute sessions for $179 or a single session.

[Elise Hu]

Wow, this is getting very confusing.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's very confusing math. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

But it sounds like the basic one is about like 50 plus dollars. Yeah. 25 minute stretch. So you're paying somebody else $2 per minute to stretch you to stretch. Which I don't think that I would buy a membership for. I mean, I would just do it every once in a while if I could do one offs. But I'm sure the one offs are like 75 or something too much.

[Dory Shafrier]

The one off 25 minute is $65.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Seems like a lot.

[Elise Hu]

I know. Yeah. And the thing is, if you get pt, which I have done years of physical therapy, y. My Shoulder. They stretch you. Yeah. So if you can get a prescription for PT from your doctors for your various muscular skeletal joint issues, then PT will do it and insurance will pay for it. So there's that. My PT offers Reformer Pilates as well. Therapeutic Pilates. And so you're also getting, you know, Pilates when you're doing it. I just have therapeutic Pilates.

[Dory Shafrier]

Eh?

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yes, Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

I like this. I like this.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And insurance, you know, insurance should cover.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, exactly, exactly.

[Elise Hu]

But yeah, like, so I'm just kind of creaky and then I don't think I've updated the listeners. Everybody get your mammogram. Get your preventative mammograms. I went to get my mammogram. Everything was fine in my left boob. But then in my right boob they're like come back because there seems to be some density. So I went back last week and then I got another follow up mammogram on my right boob plus an ultrasound. And they found two things. One thing that is not that worrying. The other thing that we don't know. So there's a little bit of like question marks around. So one thing was a cyst, which is just, you know, a fluid filled cyst, which they're not. They're like whatever. The other one is a little like massive tissues. Not massive, like mass of massive.

[Dory Shafrier]

Massive.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And they're like. We don't know. It's like a little lump of something and it's underneath your nip and like I wouldn't be able to feel like I can't feel it, but. So it's small, I assume. But they have to biopsy that. So I'm going to get that biopsied in a couple of weeks. So fingers crossed. I am not that concerned. I don't think I need to be that concerned just yet. Um, I don't have a family history of breast cancer. My mom actually did have some lumps, benign lumps in her breasts after breastfeeding.

[Dory Shafrier]

So there's history of lumps.

[Elise Hu]

That's right. We have an episode title, folks.

[Dory Shafrier]

History of History of Lumps.

[Elise Hu]

You can take that literally or figuratively. But she also had something called a lipoma, which is like a fatty tumor. Like a tumor of fat, I think.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

That was the size of a sweet potato next to her spine. That seems that had to be removed. Yeah, it was, I mean, huge. Yeah, that, that she was like, showed it to me after I got out of anesthesia and it was big, but. And they were, the doctors were a Little scared about that one because it was so close to her spine and this was in her 50s. And so we all went to Taipei. The whole Hugh family went to be there. Just because it was like, well, this could be a dangerous surgery. But because it was a lipoma and not cancer, it was like very clean margins. They could just cut right around it. You know, it wasn't scraggly edged. You know, it wasn't jagged edged.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And so they got that right out. So my mom has had some lumps removed and I'm hoping that my lump is similar to her lumps, but we really won't know until, I guess, mid August. So send your thoughts and prayers that this lump is not a bad one.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

That makes me think of the Black Eyed Peas song.

[Elise Hu]

What you gonna do with all your lumps? All your lumps. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The song is My humps, I think circa. Circa what, 2003 or something?

[Dory Shafrier]

It was. It was 2005. And there's a lot of talk of my lovely lady lumps. But then there's also my hump. My hump. Humps and lumps. They talk about both. And junk in your trunk.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, in the trunk.

[Dory Shafrier]

This is like quite. Who.

[Elise Hu]

Who wrote Black Eyed Peas?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, no, I know, but who like wrote it? Like, who is responsible for this abomination? Abomination. Oh, it was written by Will. I am.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Dory Shafrier]

It was. It was originally written for the Pussycat Dolls, but it ended up being recorded by the Black Eyed Peas.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

The more you know.

[Elise Hu]

As you can tell, we don't plan out what our catch up chats are going to be at the beginning of our episodes, so they can really go in direction. We don't even bullet it out. It's not like, oh, maybe I'll talk about this and you'll talk about this. Nope. Yeah, no, it is 100% organic that we landed here at My Humps.

[Dory Shafrier]

I did not know that we would be talking about my humps in this. In this episode, but you know, that's what happens. Well, Elise, should we introduce our guest?

[Elise Hu]

So I don't know if you saw it. You probably did because it was a super viral Instagram post in the fall of 2023 that started with the line, growing up, I never knew a relaxed woman. And then the writer, Nicola Jane Hobbs goes on to say, successful women, yes. Productive women. Plenty. Anxious and afraid and apologetic women. Heaps of them. But relaxed women, at ease women. Women who aren't afraid to take up space in the world. Women who prioritize rest and pleasure and play. Women who give themselves unconditional permission to relax without guilt, without apology, without feeling like they need to earn it. I'm not sure I've ever met a woman like that, but I would like to become one. I would like us all to become one. And from that idea that she put out into the world came a book titled the Relaxed Woman Reclaim, Rest and Live an Empowered, joy filled Life by the writer of that Instagram post, Nicola Jane Hobbs. And that is who is on today. That's who we've got to talk to.

[Dory Shafrier]

Nicola also focuses on the social and psychological barriers that prevent women from getting the rest they need. And she loves supporting women overcome these barriers through coaching and workshops. She recently founded the Relaxed Woman, a community devoted to supporting women to recover from stress and burnout through coaching and workshops. She loves handstands, baking, growing her own vegetables and exploring nature with her family. She lives in Brighton in the UK by the sea. And she is at Nicola Jane Hobbs on social media. And before we take a break and chat with Nicola, just a reminder, we do our interview episodes on Mondays and on Wednesdays we have our mini episodes and Our website is forever35podcast.com we have links there to everything we mention on the show. We're also on Instagram at february35podcast. We have a [e-mail] forever35. So if you want to hear more of us, we do a casual chat every Friday. We do monthly pop culture episodes. There's a lot happening over there. Our favorite products are at Shopmy US Forever 35. We have a newsletter at Forever35podcast.com Newsletter and these mini episodes live and die by your texts, emails and voicemails. So you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and now we will take a short break. We'll be right back.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be right back.

[Hannah]

Hey guys, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. You know, I love beauty and that's why I go to Sephora. It's not just shopping, it's like a glam experience. The beauty advisors actually get beauty, unlike those big box stores and they give me all the advice I need and I love going with the products. You can only find Sephora like my new favorite Kayali fragrance, my perfect shade of Haus Labs foundation, and finally restocked my Lineage lip mask, all with the help of real experts. Oh, and if you haven't tried day shampoo. Go try it. It's a game changer. Sephora isn't just a store, it's the beauty destination. Go. You'll thank me later.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

It's not.

[Unknown]

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[Dory Shafrier]

We are so excited to have you on the show today. Welcome, welcome.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. So we start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. I feel like your whole book is sort of about self care in a way, but I'm wondering if there's anything that you do in particular that you would consider self care right now.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Oh yeah. So I think at the moment what I'm really focusing on is slowing down. So just slowing down. Everything from how quickly I do the washing up to when I'm walking to even I think sometimes we're very busy and our thoughts are so quick in our mind. So just slowing down thinking, slowing down breathing. And I'm a mom of a wild and spirited 11 month old, so I found that that that slowness kind of has a ripple effect on him as well. And it's really beautiful to see how that practice of slowness as it. As I find it regul begins to ripple out onto other people as well.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, listeners might know you from a viral Instagram post that you put up a few years ago about how growing up you knew lots of different kinds of women. Successful women, ambitious women, productive women, but not a relaxed woman. So let's talk about what a relaxed woman is. I'd love for you to just read that paragraph that kind of talks about what a relaxed woman is in the introduction.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

The relaxed woman is a woman who is free. Free to rest, free to cry, free to make mistakes and ask for help. Free to experience bliss and pleasure and delight. Free to feel her emotions and choose her values and respond compassionately to the unavoidable stresses in her life. Free to trust herself, to care for herself, to be herself.

[Elise Hu]

How did you come to that?

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

As a psychologist? I started noticing patterns in the women that I. I was working with in that whatever, whatever. The main source of the reason that they came to me was they all had this similar echo of finding it really difficult to relax. And their worth was so tied up with their productivity that they felt guilty for resting and guilty for slowing down. And so I started doing some research into what went into women's relationship with west, and that's really what kind of allow me to come to this definition of what a relaxed woman is. And also looking into the etymology, the source of the word relax, which comes from the old French relax, meaning to release, to liberate, to set free. And so I think it's so often to think about relaxation in a really kind of commodified sense of, like, spa trips and wellness products, which is great. And I think lots of us love them and they can be really helpful. But also, if we broaden our idea of what it means to be a relaxed woman, is that actually it's having this freedom in the world to live by our own values rather than all of these shoulds that have been imposed by society.

[Elise Hu]

The whole notion of should can be so taxing and problematic.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

I think that's what I started to recognize is the messages and the things that all the women I was working with were saying and who I spoke with in my research were so similar that it's almost like we have absorbed these messages from society and never actually had time to pause and think, is this actually what I believe and is this in line with my values and is this the life that I really want to live, or am I just being pulled along at this machine pace that I never truly signed up for?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's. That's sort of like the. The constant push and pull. I mean, one thing that I personally find difficult, and I'm wondering if you can speak to this a little bit, is like recognizing when you're sort of in that. Because it's hard, I think, when you. When you are sort of so in the. In the world of the shoulds, to be able to have that perspective on it. And I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

I can completely relate to what you're saying on a personal level as well. I think when. When we're stuck in it, it's really difficult to get that bigger perspective because it's like the. The whole water that we're. We're swimming in, and it's. We're almost blind to it. So almost something shines awareness on it, and we're like, oh, my gosh, I've just been living my whole life by. Sometimes I refer to it as this internalized rulebook of shoulds because it is Like a rulebook. And I think when it comes to relaxation, it breaks so many of these rules about we should be productive, we should be pleasing, we should always be doing more, and we should be endlessly giving. But I think a really helpful way to begin to identify is if we're experiencing a lot of shame, then I think that shame almost points away that we're living by shoulds.

[Elise Hu]

That's helpful. What was it for you? What was your own journey like, Nicola, to finding this relaxed woman? Practice.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Even when I was very young, I. I experienced the world as quite overwhelming. When I was 5 or 6, I had a lot of tests to see if I was deaf, which I wasn't. I just found it. I was so anxious. I found it really difficult to concentrate and to pay attention to the world around me. And now I understand the way the nervous system works a lot more. And when we're stressed, our capacity to listen decreases. And so actually, I think really what brought me to this journey is because I found it so difficult to relax and learning scientifically and on a psychological level, the kind of science behind it really helped me. And then just beginning to practice those things and begin to embody those things. And I started just noticing really small shifts. And then I thought, God, if I, if, if I'm struggling with this, then it's probably a lot of other women are finding this difficult as well. And, and that's what really inspired me to, to write the book.

[Elise Hu]

I love that there is so much science in it. Is there any particular research that you stumbled upon in trying to understand this state that we're in individually and collectively that really struck you and sticks with you that you want to take a moment to share?

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

So I think one of my favorite theories is something called the generalized unsafety theory of stress. And it looks at stress in a slightly different way. Most theories around stress talk about the way when there's a trigger or a threat and the environment, our stress response activates, it's switched on. Whereas the generalized unsafety theory of stress, or guts, which is sometimes called for short, kind of posits the opposite. Is that our stress response is always switched on unless we feel safe and then it's switches off. So when it comes to resting and relaxing, it's not just about trying to reduce the stresses in our lives. It's also about trying to become more aware of and increase the sources of safeness in our lives. So soothing warmth, comfort. And I think sometimes it's not, it's not just about what, what triggers my stress response. To switch on, but also asking what helps my stress response switch off? So what helps me feel safe enough so that I can experience these states of rest and relaxation? And I think that was a really profound shift for me in the way that I related to relaxation and the way I spoke about it and worked with it with the women that I work with.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it's an inversion, right? Like we're actually always stressed. The default is to be stressed.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yeah, it makes sense on an evolutionary level in the sense of it's kind of, it's better safe than sorry. Like it's better that we run away from something that we think is a threat that isn't actually a threat 10 times. Then we kind of, we don't run away that one time that it actually is a threat. But actually in our modern society now we don't have that many of the threat threats. The threats are the deadlines, the emails, the headlines, the social media algorithms that, that aren't actually putting us in survival danger, but we, we still have nervous systems that have evolved to respond to them in that way. So it takes a lot of effort to actually let our nervous systems know it's okay, you're safe now. This is just an email, this is just a deadline.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm wondering what you would say to women who are in like such a heightened state of anxiety or just sort of trying to survive like day to day. I mean, I think especially in the United States right now, things feel very precarious. There's a lot of economic uncertainty. And so I think, you know, possibly for some people this idea of like being relaxed is like so far outside of anything they can even think about because they're trying to survive like day to day. And so I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that. And you know, are there ways that people who are really just sort of like struggling to survive can also feel relaxed?

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

We can't cope with all these socio economic and systemic pressures through self care alone. And yet we need some tools and some practices that can help us get by and to kind of allow our nervous systems to calm and our stress responses to switch off, even if just for a moment. And I think that's what I'd say to women who are really in the thick of it right now is that we don't need to spend hours napping on a sofa. It can just be one breath. It can be kind of. I've got, my neighbors have got this beautiful blossom tree in their garden and it's spring. So it's just, it's coming out in these beautiful pink blossoms. And every time that I look at it, I feel my nervous system begin to calm. And so I think it is kind of at the end of the day just pausing and thinking what is it throughout the day that's helped me feel safe and how can I begin to make that into a practice so that it is accessible for everyone?

[Elise Hu]

This isn't a to do list. Right. This isn't things that you need to do in order to become relaxed. And in fact you write that being a relaxed woman in this framework is less about what we do and more about how we approach the world. Can you say a little bit more about that so that, you know, those who want an actionable way to change our approach to the world might be able to see things a little differently?

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yeah. So I, I think about the relaxed woman as a. It's a way of being in the world. So it's not necessarily what we're doing that's changing. It is the way that we're paying attention and the way that we're, whether it is with doing the washing up or caring for our child is that we are able to be, to live our values as we're doing it. So I think a lot of being a relaxed woman is getting in touch with what matters to us and the kind of those kind of core qualities that we want to embody that have been buried beneath all these layers of cultural messaging and childhood conditioning and those coping strategies that we've. That were helpful in childhood but may have outlived their usefulness and actually thinking about what it like what does being a relaxed woman mean for each of us and how can we embody that in the world?

[Elise Hu]

And you actually came up the back half of the relaxed woman is the approach. Right. Steps that we can take to go on a journey to become a more relaxed woman. Can you take us through that journey or the steps of that journey?

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yeah. So the journey is designed around what Bruce Perry calls the way he talks about it is a neurosequential journey. So it's, it's a biologically sensitive journey that starts with bottom up practices to help soothe our nervous system and then brings in more top down strategies once kind of the thinking parts of our brain come back online and we feel more rested and we feel more regulated. So to start with, we begin with restoring our inner resources. And this, this begins with different forms of rest. So sometimes that's sleep, but often that's not we. That isn't accessible. And like I said before, I'VE got. I've got a B at the moment. So that is an area of my life that I have much kind of wiggle room over, that there are all these different forms of rest that we can begin to. To play with. And this is what I write in the book is about. This isn't necessarily about doing the inner work, it's about in a play and about playing with different ways of being and playing with different forms of rest which could. Being could be something as simple as wearing comfy clothes and warm fabrics and things that we can begin to weave into our life that aren't going to take us, aren't going to require time of us that we simply don't have. So then the second step on the journey is about regulating our nervous system, which can take time to do in terms of finding rhythms of life that really work for us. But it also can be in smaller practices like rhythmic walking, rhythmic music, kind of sway in our hips and things like that, that our nervous systems and bodies start to recognize as. As this is safe, we are safe now. And then we move on to relationships and how we can nurture those in different ways and create more secure attachment patterns in our adult lives. Because I don't think any of us can become relaxed women alone. I think this really is a collective journey that we have to be on together and we can support each other and really champion each other when it comes to celebrating each other, stepping out of those patterns of productivity and people pleasing and moving towards a more restful way of being. And then the next step is beginning to release the beliefs that limit us. And so that is when, like we touched on earlier, the shoulds and the scheme is the ways of thinking that keep us trapped and keep us feeling unworthy. And then once we've released some of those, the next step is on how we can begin to realize our dreams and move towards a kind of meaningful manifestation where we start moving towards the goals that matter to us and creating this not just a life worth living, but a life worth sharing. And then finally, I think what naturally comes from that is kind of joining this relaxed revolution, which is how we can use kind of the energy that we have and allow that to kind of flow out into the world. And I think it goes, you know, we can occupy many steps on this journey at the same time and we're going to spend the rest of our lives on it. So it isn't like a to do list that we can complete. It's more like we are on this journey together forever.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love this idea of, like, how people can find community and relaxation because I, I feel like there's so many, you know, groups where people get together to sort of, like, keep each other accountable for productivity or networking. Yeah, networking and, you know, but the idea of having like a relaxation circle where you get together with people to just talk about relaxing and how you can kind of, as you said, like, put that, that energy out into the world, I think is really beautiful. So maybe this will inspire some of our listeners to start their own relaxation circles. Yeah, I want to do one.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, this is really speaking to Dory's Taurus Energy.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

This is not a drill.

[Dory Shafrier]

You can get the new iPhone 16e.

[Elise Hu]

With Apple Intelligence for just $49.99 when you switch to Boost Mobile. Wait, that's the actual fire alarm. We need to go visit your nearest Boost mobile store for full offer details. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. Restrictions apply. Let's talk a little bit more about the relationships part because you have a whole chapter on nurturing our relationships. What role does better nurturing our relationships and our connections with one another do for our liberation?

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

So I think as I was speaking to a lot of the women in my research, what came across was almost this felt sense of aloneness. And I think that can then tied in with the cultural messaging is it leads to this sense of hyper independence and this, and this kind of feeling of there's no one there. I remember one lady saying to me I'm scared to rest because I'm afraid that if I take my foot off the gas my whole life will fall apart. Almost like this sense of if I fall, there is no one to catch me. And we're all going to go through times in our lives where we are the ones doing the holding and there's going to be times in our lives where we are the ones who need to be held. And we can only do that if we're in community. We can only trust that we can rest and that it's safe to rest if there are people there who can kind of carry the mental load for us when we really need it. And so I think nurturing relationships is really important. And I felt that in my life in the sense of as I've moved away from this people pleasing, I can do everything on my own. I. I don't need anyone. I need to prove my worth into more of a sense of vulnerability and asking for help and allowing that kind of natural rhythm of giving care and receiving care. It's become a lot easier to rest and relax and actually know that this isn't something selfish because it gives me the capacity to give when other people need me.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. Because I wanted to ask you, is it selfish? Like is this an argument that is like difficult to make in this time, this era that we're living in to try and luxuriate in simple joys and pay more attention when there is so much chaos going on all around us.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yeah. And I think it is almost like our culture has rebranded relaxation as this as laziness and as selfish. But even if you look at it on a physiological level, as we relax and we become more regulated, it has a ripple effect. And I often talk about the ripple effect of the relaxed women is we become sources of co regulation for everyone we come into contact with. So on a nervous system to nervous system level, we become that source of calm and then they go on to affect everyone that they come into contact with. And I also Think it's about, you know, it's, you know, in one sense, it's a. It's a rest and relaxation. They're biological necessities. And for so many of us, it is a luxury and it is a privilege and it's a gift. And I think if we have that privilege to. It almost comes with a certain responsibility so that we can begin creating new social norms where actually rest isn't a luxury, and it is the we, everyone as women can. Can honor that biological need to slow down and to. To have rest and relaxation become a necessary part of everyday life.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I like that about new social norms, and I think there's a real need for cultural shifts in the workplace too. America, obviously, is a pretty workaholic culture, but, you know, I used to be in South Korea and Japan, and it's even worse there. Right. There's this sense that you can't take your foot off the gas because nobody else has taken their foot off the gas. And so you're looking around and there are no allies in trying to take better care of ourselves and our souls. So there is something about giving license and giving permission to other people as well that I think is really key.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yeah. And I often think about what. What am I role modeling to other women? What am I role modeling to my son? And I think sometimes if we can't. If we can't rest for ourselves, it's. It's almost helpful to think about it. Like, that is almost like, okay, what am I role modeling for the other women in my family and in my community? And I think like, that first Instagram post that went viral is, I. I never saw that. I didn't. I didn't realize I was allowed to relax because I didn't see other women doing it. And I don't want my friends, my loved ones to feel the same way. So it almost feels like if I have this privilege where there are times in my life where I can take my foot off the gas, then if I do that, it almost gives other women permission to do the same.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Are there. Are there things in your life that you feel like you do need to sort of put your foot on the gas for?

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yes, definitely. And I think, you know, I think there are gonna be times when. When we're gonna have to do that, but it's almost like, you know, I think so. We've been sold this idea of balance as well, where we. We have. We can kind of effortlessly balance, self care and work. And I think that just adds even more pressure to us as women. And so I really like to think about things in terms of rhythms. Is that actually, for example, now, as you know, I'm moving towards a book coming out and I'm also. My baby's still little, so I want to be there for him. It feels like this actually for me is a time when my foot is, is on the gas and maybe my, you know, my demands are exceeding my resources a little bit. But I know actually that once the book is out, I can take my foot off the gas a bit and have a bit of breathing space. And yeah, this is often what I say to women is when those opportunities to rest, Rest arise, we have to grab them. Because it's so easy to finish one project and then jump into the next thing. Whether that's on a larger scale or on a day to day basis. Is that actually. Yes, when there's little windows of, of opportunities to rest arise, then we have to grab them because we don't know when the next opportunity might be.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's. Yes, that's very real.

[Elise Hu]

Nicola. Something that Dori and I have talked about over the last couple of months is like what we would do if we weren't podcast hosts, if we weren't journalists. And I'm often like, oh, I think that I could be a psychologist. You know, I could be a therapist. And then we've actually have therapists in our audience who call in saying like, no, I actually want to be a writer, I want to be a podcast host instead. The grass is always greener on the other side. So because we have you on and you are a therapist, we'd love to know what you would do if you weren't one, if you weren't, if you didn't choose this line of work.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

If I wasn't a therapist, I just think at the moment where I am my life to be a full time mom, I'm actually moving towards that just to see, just to see. I mean, it might, it might not be for me, but I think for me part of writing this book and has, has really, and going through this process has really brought me closer to my values and closer to what matters to me the most. And right now is, is, is being a mother. And I, I think I write in the book about how care work is so undervalued and I have the privilege of being able to take some time now, whether it's weeks, months, years, to be full time with my son. So I think that that's what I, that's what I want to do.

[Elise Hu]

What they Say is true. It is the longest, shortest time. Like the days are long. What do they say? The days are long but the years are short or something like that. It is absolutely true because I was on vacation with my kids who were. And I was just like, I can't believe I have one. I have an almost teenager now, you know, and I can still see her when she was 11 months old. So that is something to try and really pay a lot of attention to and be intentional with. About your time, Nicola.

[Dory Shafrier]

Where can our listeners find you? Are you doing any events and in the meantime, where can they, you know, follow along with your work?

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yeah, so we are going to do some workshops near the time which I will put up on. Probably the best place is Instagram, which is just my name, ikolajanehobbs. And then also I'll put some details on my website, which is therelaxedwoman.com.

[Dory Shafrier]

Great. Thank you so much.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. And I, I feel co regulated by being in conversation with you. So.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Yeah, the more we speak about rest and relaxation, it kind of, it does have that ripple effect because if we don't talk about it, then it kind of doesn't matter and it, and it gets pushed to the side, but actually when we bring it to the forefront, it kind of just expands outwards and we all begin to feel a bit more rested and regulated together.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for shining a light.

[Dory Shafrier]

Did you feel like a relaxed woman after we spoke to Nicola? Talking. Yeah, just.

[Elise Hu]

Just talking to Nicola. Jane Hobbs is relaxing. She does, you know, you just. She seems like she's in a different gear, more chilled out gear than the rest of us.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, yes, she really does.

[Elise Hu]

I like it. I like it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, Elise, last week I was talking about getting ready for sectionals and when this airs. See, it's tricky because when this airs, sectionals will have already happened. But as we are recording this, I don't know what is going to happen at sectionals. So I'm gonna sort of like expand on this and say I really just want to have a fun weekend with my tennis team. I'm trying not to put too many, like, expectations on myself or on the team because I can like, really get anxious about that and I don't want to. I want to just be like, enjoying being on a tennis court near the beach. Like, it's just gonna be nice. And so I want to just like lean into that and not focus so much on like, winning and losing. Easier said than done. But that's, that's my, that's my objective.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

What about you?

[Elise Hu]

That's a great intention.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

My intention last week was just to get dressed every day.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. How'd that go?

[Elise Hu]

I have done a great job. I bought some shorts. I got some shorts from Quince. Some like, I think Quince makes these like linen shorts that are kind of dupes for these very popular linen shorts on anthropology and their seersucker. And I've been wearing that with like button down shirts and tank tops and like. So I, I have a little bit of a more put together look when I go out and walk my dog.

[Dory Shafrier]

Nice.

[Elise Hu]

So that has helped just like start my mornings. So I did live out that intention this week. As I mentioned at the top of the show, it's all about stretching. My hamstring, my left hamstring and my left like hip flexor. They're so tight. It's actually getting in the way of enjoying exercises because it hurts and so I really need to deal with it. I'm gonna foam roll and stretch and just spend more time intentionally stretching rather than sighing in the middle of a podcast taping and trying to do it then.

[Dory Shafrier]

Fair? Fair.

[Elise Hu]

Yep.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay. All right. Well, before we wrap up, this is the time of the month where we thank our Patreon supporters at the ten dollar level and above. So I'm gonna read some names and we are so appreciative for you. And if you want to support us on Patreon, you can do [e-mail] Forever35. And again, you get a lot of bonus content, but you also support the show, maybe more importantly, ad free episodes.

[Elise Hu]

At the $10 and ad free episodes.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's true. All right, thank you to the following. Heather Whaley, Caitlin H. Katie Ashley Taylor, Theresa Anderson, Michelle Maya, Barbara Chiakalos, Amy Amy Schnitzer, Megan Helen De Moy, Shelly Lee, Kim Beagler, Sarah Sarah Boozi, Allison Cohen, Susan Berseth, Melissa McLean, Fran Kelsey Wolf Donne Laura Eddy, Jeddal Apte, Valerie Bruno, Jane Thoreau, Julie Daniel E. Jackson, Amy Maseko, Liz Rain, jdk, Jennifer Smith, Hannah M, Julia Putt, Maddie o', Day, Marissa Lauren Gitlin, Sarah Bell, Maria Diana, Cocoa Bean, Laura Haddon, Josie H, Nikki Bossert, Juliana Duff, Chelsea Torres, Tiffany G, Emily McIntyre, Stephanie Germana, Olivia Fahey, Elizabeth A, Kelly Dearborn, Christine Bassis, Allison Marklane, Jessica Gale, Zulima Lundy, Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Golds and T. Nikki, Katherine Ellingson, Kara Brugman, Sarah H, Sarah Egan, Jess Combin, Jennifer H.S. eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brianne Macy, Elizabeth Holland, Karen Perelman, Katie Jordan, Sarah M, Kate M, Emily Bruyer, Josie Alquist, Tara Todd, Elizabeth Cleary, and Monica, thank you again. We're so grateful for you.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Dory Shafrier]

And just a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hun. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. We'll talk to you soon.

[Nicola Jane Hobbs]

Talk to you next time.

[Hannah]

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[Unknown]

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