Episode 363: Stretching the Power of Fashion with Nikki Ogunnaike

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 363: Stretching the Power of Fashion with Nikki Ogunnaike

Release Date: August 4, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Nikki Ogunnaike, Editor-in-Chief at Marie Claire Magazine

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1. Introduction and Hosts' Catch-Up [02:17 – 10:50]

The episode kicks off with Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu sharing personal updates, focusing on Elise's recent experiences in a high-stakes tennis sectionals tournament. Elise recounts the challenges faced due to unpredictable weather conditions and the mental strain of competitive sports:

Elise Hu [04:18]: "I had like maybe the most frustrating match I've ever played. It was very windy, and that threw me off enough."

Despite a tough singles match, Elise highlights the camaraderie and collective effort of her team, ultimately securing a respectable third place. The conversation underscores the balance between individual performance and team dynamics, emphasizing the emotional highs and lows of competitive sports.

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2. Introduction of Guest: Nikki Ogunnaike [10:50 – 15:04]

Doree introduces Nikki Ogunnaike, a seasoned fashion editor with an impressive portfolio, including roles at Vanity Fair, InStyle, Glamour, Elle, GQ, Harper's Bazaar, and currently, Editor-in-Chief at Marie Claire. Nikki's expertise in fashion and her experience navigating the evolving media landscape set the stage for an insightful discussion.

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3. Self-Care Practices with Nikki Ogunnaike [15:04 – 18:00]

The conversation begins with Nikki sharing her self-care routine, emphasizing the importance of physical activity:

Nikki Ogunnaike [15:20]: "My most consistent self-care practice is working out in one way or another. I'm a pretty avid runner and take a stretching class every Sunday."

Nikki elaborates on her dedication to stretching, explaining how attending a structured class ensures consistency and highlights the comprehensive benefits of a dedicated stretching routine:

Nikki Ogunnaike [16:14]: "Carving out that 45 minutes just for myself has made such a big difference. It brings awareness to the body."

The hosts discuss the physical repercussions of neglecting such practices, with Doree humorously mentioning her own struggles with "dead butt syndrome," underscoring the universal challenges of maintaining physical health.

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4. Fashion Insights and the Evolving Role of Magazines [19:00 – 25:18]

Transitioning to fashion, Doree poses a critical question about the relevance of magazines in the digital age:

Doree Shafrir [19:04]: "How do you think about the role of magazines and now, you know, Marie Claire specifically, given the way attention has become so fractured?"

Nikki responds by highlighting the multifaceted approach of modern magazines, integrating print with digital platforms such as podcasts, newsletters, and live events:

Nikki Ogunnaike [19:16]: "Magazines, when I think about Marie Claire, it's just a small portion of it. We have print, a podcast, a newsletter, the website, live events—each piece is equally important."

She emphasizes the continued value of print media as a tangible asset while acknowledging the necessity of diversifying content delivery to stay relevant.

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5. Current Fashion Trends and Industry Concerns [21:38 – 28:10]

Delving into fashion trends, Nikki expresses excitement for Michael Ryder's new line at Celine, appreciating its blend of luxury and approachability:

Nikki Ogunnaike [21:38]: "Michael Ryder's Celine just debuted a few days ago, and his designs are so beautiful yet approachable. It's redefining modern luxury."

However, she voices concerns about the industry's obsession with extreme thinness, linking it to unhealthy societal standards:

Nikki Ogunnaike [22:56]: "I'm really scared about the proliferation of skinniness that's happening. It reminds me of the bad parts of the 2000s."

Keen on fostering a more inclusive and health-conscious fashion environment, Nikki advocates for authentic representation and ethical beauty standards.

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6. Reflecting on Past and Future Fashion Trends [25:30 – 29:01]

Nikki ponders which early 2000s fashion items should be preserved for future nostalgia, such as cropped leather jackets and Bermuda shorts. She cautions against the rampant "dupe culture," encouraging mindful purchasing and valuing quality over quantity:

Nikki Ogunnaike [25:30]: "We're going to look back and regret dupe culture—the idea that everyone needs to have everything. Maybe next time, we should opt for secondhand or skip unnecessary purchases."

This reflection underscores a shift towards sustainability and intentionality in fashion consumption.

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7. Beauty Favorites and Recommendations [28:10 – 32:21]

Kicking off a segment on beauty, Nikki shares her staple products, favoring minimalist routines aligned with her busy lifestyle. She highlights:

• Merit Beauty's Blush Balm: Versatile for cheeks and lips.
• NARS Radiant Creamy Concealer: A long-time favorite for reliable coverage.
• Nyx Butter Gloss: Affordable and universally loved.
• La Roche-Posay Sunscreen: Praised for its effective, non-casting formula.

Her endorsements provide listeners with practical, high-quality beauty options that balance efficacy and simplicity.

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8. Reality TV Preferences and Personalities [33:37 – 44:43]

The discussion shifts to reality television, with Nikki expressing enthusiasm for shows like "The Traitors" and "Big Brother," appreciating the blend of strategy and social dynamics. She humorously reflects on her potential participation:

Nikki Ogunnaike [42:10]: "I could be a bartender on 'Watch What Happens Live' and a great friend on 'Housewives,' but I don't think I could be a main housewife."

Nikki emphasizes the importance of authenticity and leadership, pondering how her skills would translate in reality TV settings.

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9. Advice for Younger Generations [44:45 – 47:00]

Wrapping up, Doree and Elise invite Nikki to share guidance for younger individuals navigating today's complex world. Nikki advises focusing on controllable aspects, such as personal responses and community involvement:

Nikki Ogunnaike [45:04]: "Realizing that you can only control your response to things is crucial. Be an active participant in your life."

She encourages perseverance and the value of trying despite potential failures, fostering a mindset of resilience and proactive engagement.

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10. Conclusion and Final Thoughts [47:00 – End]

The episode concludes with the hosts and Nikki reflecting on their personal intentions and affirming the importance of self-care, community, and mindful living. The conversation underscores the interconnectedness of fashion, media, personal well-being, and societal influence, leaving listeners with actionable insights and inspiration.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Elise Hu on Frustrating Tennis Match [04:18]:
  "I had like, maybe the most frustrating match I've ever played. It was very windy, and that threw me off enough."

• Nikki Ogunnaike on Self-Care [15:20]:
  "My most consistent self-care practice is working out in one way or another. I'm a pretty avid runner and take a stretching class every Sunday."

• Nikki on Modern Luxury Fashion [21:38]:
  "Michael Ryder's Celine just debuted a few days ago, and his designs are so beautiful yet approachable. It's redefining modern luxury."

• Nikki on Dupe Culture [25:30]:
  "We're going to look back and regret dupe culture—the idea that everyone needs to have everything. Maybe next time, we should opt for secondhand or skip unnecessary purchases."

• Nikki's Advice to Young People [45:04]:
  "Realizing that you can only control your response to things is crucial. Be an active participant in your life."

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Key Takeaways

• Balance in Self-Care: Nikki emphasizes the synergy between physical activity and mental well-being, advocating for structured self-care routines.

• Evolving Media Landscape: Modern magazines like Marie Claire are diversifying their content delivery to stay relevant in a fragmented attention economy.

• Fashion Inclusivity: There's a growing movement towards inclusive and sustainable fashion, rejecting past harmful standards of beauty.

• Mindful Consumption: Listeners are encouraged to make intentional choices in fashion and beauty, prioritizing quality and sustainability over fleeting trends.

• Empowerment and Resilience: The episode concludes with empowering advice for younger generations to take control of their lives and contribute positively to their communities.

This episode of Forever35 offers a rich blend of personal anecdotes, expert insights, and practical advice, making it a valuable listen for anyone interested in the intersections of fashion, self-care, and media in today's world.

Transcript

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

Brought to you by Earth Animal. Have you ever been overwhelmed at the pet store looking at dog treats and you're faced with a wall of ears, hooves, mystery meat and then rawhide? It looks harmless, but if you know people with dogs, then you probably know someone whose dog had a bad experience with rawhide. But now there's earth animals. No hide chews, no rawhide, no nasties. Just simple sustainable ingredients and an extra plus no awful smell. Plus no hide chews actually last get 25% off no hide with code pod25earthanimal.com give them a try, but remember to always supervise chewing subject to availability. Terms and conditions apply. See earthanimal.com for details. Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Elise Hu]

Welcome to the show.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, welcome back listeners. And welcome in to our new listeners. We have a great interview today with the fashion editor Nikki Ogunaki. And that's coming up a little later. But first door I need to hear the update. Listeners need to hear the Update about your tennis team and the big sectionals tournament.

[Elise Hu]

The big sectionals tournament. So it was at a high school in Orange County. It was at Marina High School in Huntington Beach, California. And it was one of those. It felt like, like what I imagine a Texas high school to be like. Like, it was just enormous. There were 16 tennis courts. There was a huge pool. There was football field. There was a soccer field there. Like the. And not to mention, we got there and like, so, you know, pretty big USTA tournament. There was also a huge water polo tournament happening of, like high school girls all weekend. There were soccer games going on the whole weekend. People were running on the track. Like, it just. I was like. And also, it's the middle of the summer. Like, all these people are.

[Dory Shafrier]

I didn't even know we were in water polo season. I thought water polo season was a totally different season.

[Elise Hu]

I mean, it was a full on club water polo tournament.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

And I mean, they were loud also. Water polo is such a hard sport. Like, it's so physically.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Draining. Anyway, whatever. So I played. Okay. I had a very. I had like, maybe the most frustrating match I've ever played. It was a singles match. Yeah, it was very windy.

[Dory Shafrier]

Like.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, really windy. And that threw me enough.

[Dory Shafrier]

Call it off. Because I think above a certain wind speed, they can call it off, right?

[Elise Hu]

They did not call it off.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, no. Okay. So every. So the ball's bouncing and flying in.

[Elise Hu]

Waves in crazy ways. Um, and the woman I played hit very soft, so it was hard for me to, like, generate pace against her. I felt like my balls were just going out plus the wind. So, like, I could not. I felt like I. And I won the first set, but it was like a battle. And then I just kind of fell apart in the second set. And then we played a tie break. And I. I really could have won that tie break. And it did not happen. And I was just so, like, annoyed with myself. I was like. She was not. You know, you're just like, ugh. She obviously was the better player for that match, but she was not like a good player. Do you know what I mean?

[Dory Shafrier]

Just a snapshot in time. Yeah, that. That. That match is just a snapshot, though. Really? It.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

I don't think it's a measure of your overall skill.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

No.

[Elise Hu]

But then my doubles partner and I played a match and we won pretty easily, so that was great. But then the next day we had another doubles match and we just. I don't know. I don't know if it was like I hadn't really warmed up, like, at least for the. For the first doubles match, I was super warmed up because I just played singles. Um, but we didn't really have a chance to warm up because the other. The other levels were in their final, so they weren't letting anyone, like, warm up on the empty courts like they usually did.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Oh.

[Elise Hu]

And I just. I don't know, I felt like we weren't in sync. I felt off. And we lost, like. And we lost kind of badly. I think we lost, like, six two, six, four or something like that. And it just. It, like, didn't feel good. It didn't feel like a good match. I wasn't. I didn't come out of that match being like, well, they won, but I played my best.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I came out of that match being.

[Elise Hu]

Like, wow, I really fucked that up.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

You know what I mean?

[Dory Shafrier]

You can't beat yourself up. These things. That's like, so tennis, too. I've been watching so much tennis, going Indian Wells and just watching it on tv, and it just. You have good days and bad days. You know, there's people who are top level, top 10 ranked players who just, like, are off. It happens not to diminish that. It's annoying.

[Elise Hu]

It was annoying. And, you know, we'll talk about this a little later, but I had said, like, my intention was to not focus on, like, winning and losing, but it was hard not to focus on that. And I also kind of forgot how just, like, mentally draining sectionals is. It's a lot of pressure. So we came really close to making the final. We didn't make the final by one match. So then I also felt bad about that. I was like, oh, if I just won that stupid singles match that I really. I, like, I lost the tie break, like, 11, nine. Like, it was. It was very close, and I was like, oh, I felt like I let my team down. I was just so annoyed. But we did. Yeah, so we came in third, and it was very close. And I don't know how the rest of my team felt about how they played. I think, like, some of them felt good and some of them didn't feel great, but, you know, it was a good experience. Everyone was, like, psyched to be there. And, yeah, it was very windy. Like, everyone was talking about the wind. Everyone was like, oh, my God, the wind. And I was talking to one of the other captains, and she was like, yeah, I think the, like, the teams that are winning are the teams that are, like, figuring out how to deal with the wind, you know, And I was like, yeah, I felt like it just. Like, it was. It just, like, wore me down. Um, so, yeah, I don't know. I'm feeling a little like, oh, maybe it's good that I am taking this break, like, right before section, like, the other sectionals that I'm playing in.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, yeah, you have more sectionals coming up, so tell me why there's two sectionals again.

[Elise Hu]

So when you have a USTA rating, you can play at your level, but you can also play up a level. And so I'm on two teams at two different levels.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

And they both made sectionals.

[Dory Shafrier]

Great.

[Elise Hu]

So I will also play in this other sectionals that's up a level. And I think with that one, it's like, okay, it's up a level. It's sectional. It's, like, the best people at this level above me. So I'm just. I feel like I'm just gonna go into it with, like, whatever happens, happens. Like, I don't have high expectations for myself.

[Dory Shafrier]

But then again, that could be the one. Like, having lower expectations.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

Having lower expectations actually help you play loose. And if you're playing, like, loose and not tight, like, that could be the difference that you're in some of these matches. Tennis is so mental.

[Elise Hu]

So mental, so mental. And I think that definitely affected me. Like, I definitely put a lot of expectations on myself. And so it may. If, like, for the first time in a long time, I was like, oh, this doesn't feel fun. And that's kind of a bummer because, like, tennis is supposed to be my, like, fun outlet.

[Dory Shafrier]

Are you gonna write about this in court? Date your substack?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, I am.

[Dory Shafrier]

I think you write really well, and then your reflections on tennis have been. Have other readers have applied to other sports or other areas of their lives? And so I'd love to read about how you reflect on all of this.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you. Yeah, that is the. That is the plan.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, well, go team, anyway, and, like, I'm so glad, you know, ultimately, this is about team, and your team came together, and y' all did a hard thing. And doing a hard thing together is so bonding, and so definitely walk out of this season with your heads held high on that front.

[Elise Hu]

For sure.

[Dory Shafrier]

Because think about how close that you all have become. And I think that was really the value that you found in tennis over these past few years.

[Elise Hu]

For sure. For sure. For sure. Elise, should we introduce our guests?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. Excited to. Nikki Ogunaki is a seasoned fashion editor and writer who is currently the editor in chief at Marie Claire. Magazine. Perhaps you've heard of it. She lives in New York City and she graduated from the University of Virginia. She's Nigerian American. She's a style expert. She cut her teeth at publications such as Vanity Fair, InStyle, Glamour, Elle, and GQ. And she was also digital director at Harper's Bazaar. She really schooled us in what's going on in fashion. And if you're curious and interested in these topics, you're really going to enjoy this conversation with Nikki.

[Elise Hu]

Before we take a break, just want to remind everyone that Our website is forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35 podcast. You can join our patreon at patreon.com forever35 our favorite products are at shopmy us forever35 our newsletter is at forever35podcast.com newsletter and maybe most important of all, please call or text us at 781-591-0390. We love getting your texts, your voicemails. Our email is forever35podcastmail.com and those are what keep the mini episodes going. So if you have questions, comments, concerns, need advice, have recommendations, text us, call us, email us. We want to hear from you. All right, we'll be right back.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Nikki Ogunaki]

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[Elise Hu]

So as you may know, we start off all of our conversations with our guests by asking them if they have a self care practice that they are willing to share and this can really run the gamut.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Totally. I would say that my most consistent self care practice is working out in one way or another. So I'm a pretty avid runner. I just ran a half marathon in early June so that generally is a lot of running. But I also take a stretching class every Sunday which sounds like an old lady sort of thing to do but it is very good for mobility and so I love doing that. But yeah, working out consistently is like the biggest sort of self care practice.

[Elise Hu]

I want to hear more about this stretching class.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I know, right? Like it really is. So it's a 45 minute class that is just purely stretching and foam rolling and it sounds obviously like something that you could do on your own. But I find going to the class and knowing That I have to go every Sunday morning keeps me consistent.

[Elise Hu]

Also, there's no way I would ever stretch for 45 minutes. Like, yes, I can do it on.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

My own, but I would do it.

[Elise Hu]

For, like, maybe five.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah. And you realize in that class, or I realized in that class, like, just how long 45 minutes is, and it's like, oh. So I've been doing, like, one to two minutes and really thinking I was doing, like, my big one with that. But 45 minutes is, like, actually what you need. Awesome.

[Elise Hu]

How long have you been doing this? Sorry, Elise. I have more questions about the stretching class. Okay.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Elise is, like, great. Moving on quickly.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, man. I feel bad because I clearly am not as interested in stretching as I should be.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I think everyone should be interested in stretching. Like, I got to a point where I was like, no, this is the key. Like, you know how everyone has, like, longevity, like, practices. Whatever. Like, this is actually the key. Like, it has made such a difference in my life. I've probably been doing it now for. Consistently for, like, a year, and it really is. Yeah. So it really has made such a big difference. Not just in, like, my running practice, obviously, those two go hand in hand together. But, like, when I do my stretches on my own in the morning, it's usually, like, 10 minutes. But, like, carving out that 45 minutes just for myself has made such a big difference. It, like, makes me consider how much I am sitting. And, like, if my hips are really tight, that helps with that. Hamstrings, all of it. Like, it really, like, even in my wrists. Like, because we. We get into the wrists, you're doing, like. Yeah. You're doing all sorts of things that are really just helping across the whole body. And you just realize, like, oh, you know, my forearms are tight because I'm always holding my iPhone. That's, like, probably too massive and heavy for my hands to begin with. So, like, all of that stuff, you know, just having that dedicated practice, like, really brings just an awareness to the body.

[Elise Hu]

Elise, it sounds like it could help with your dead butt syndrome.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I know. I have something called dead butt syndrome.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I need you to tell me a little more about that.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. So I didn't know that it was actually called this, but, you know, my glutes are so weak. And it's that medial glute or whatever that it then extends to your entire back chain, because then your knee is overcompensating.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yep.

[Dory Shafrier]

Possibly your lower back is also over compensating. And so I get, like, tightness in my sacrum. And then overuse injury in my right knee. And it's all because of my dead butt syndrome.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Sleepy butt. Yeah. You gotta wake up. What are you doing? Are you doing squats? Are you stretching?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, it's a lot of like, clamshell and then the fire hydrants and all of those things which are fire hydrated.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Into a donkey kick. Yeah, all of that.

[Dory Shafrier]

Such a drag. Such a drag. All right, well, Nikki, besides being a stretching enthusiast, you really have such an impressive resume in media and magazines that you've worked at over the years. Currently EIC at Marie Claire, which is why we're having you on. I want to ask you because the. My entire adult life has been in this media apocalypse or has felt like.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

It'S been started working in 2007. So, yes, I know it well, you.

[Dory Shafrier]

Know, how do you think about the role of magazines and now, you know, Marie Claire specifically, given the way attention has become so fractured?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I mean, I think magazines, when I think about Marie Claire and when I think about, like the magazine portion of it, it really is just like a small portion of it. Right. So we do print twice a year, March and September. But we also have a podcast that I host, Nice Talk. We have a newsletter that I write self checkout. We have the website marieclaire.com, we have live events, our Power Play series. It's just a small piece of the brand, and I think it's the piece of the brand that really stretches sort of the. That I think, in a different way. I don't think that any piece is more or less important. I will always have a love for print. I would love to, you know, do more print in the future. I think it's valuable. There's something to be said for having like a tangible sort of keepsake of the brand. But it's. It's a portion of what we do now.

[Dory Shafrier]

Got it. Got it.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

That's such a difference from the mentality or just the way the world was. The media world was, you know, when I started. When you started. And it's kind of dizzying to think about the rapidity of the changes.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

You know, I worked at Graydon Carter's Vanity Fair and like, thinking about how much he did during that time, like, this guy was starting restaurants and he was doing, you know, like Z was doing so much.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, interesting.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah. And so he. He sort of, to me is the kind of like, what's an example of like what a modern day or like what a now editor in chief does? So it's like not just the magazine. It's a little bit of this, it's a little bit of that. And so I equate sort of what we're doing now not exactly, like, obviously to grade and Carter scale, but it is that sort of like, you're flexing in a bunch of different ways. It's not just about the print product that comes out monthly.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that's a really good way of thinking about it. You know, in your role, you get to kind of be a real arbiter of style and, you know, set style trends and reflect on style trends. And so we're wondering, like, what are you into right now when it comes to fashion and style? What do you feel like is played out when it comes to fashion trends right now?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah, I'm really, really excited about Michael Ryder's Celine. It just debuted a couple of days ago. Michael Ryder is from D.C. i'm from Virginia, so I have a special place in my heart for people who are from the dmv. Yeah, I think that his designs were just so beautiful to see. They're obviously high luxury, but there was an approachability to it. So I looked at it, and I was like, you know, oh, I could make this work for me. I can figure out how to sort of, like, piece this together. His, obviously, are, like, the. The most beautiful versions of, like, a khaki pant or in a leather jacket. But, you know, he really has a really interesting way of looking at what modern luxury means now. And it's not like, quiet luxury or like, that sort of thing that we went through. I'm very over that. So I'm happy that we're going in this new wave of luxury that he's sort of on the forefront of. Um, I'm really scared about. I'm really sort of, like, worried about this proliferation of skinniness that is happening. Yeah, there's a lot. You know, I spend a lot of time on TikTok, and just the sort of, like, shrouded conversation around eating disorders is, like, really terrifying to see. It takes me back to the bad part of the 2000s. And, yeah, I'm. I really hope that, like, fashion doesn't fall for that again.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's what I was gonna ask you, because, you know, we are in this time where we've gotten far enough away from the 90s and even Y2K, where there's this reassessment and reappraisal about how bad the 90s were, especially for women, and the kind of porniness of it that the Atlantic critic Sophie Gilbert wrote about. We had her on earlier this year. So where are you on the return of the, like, late 90s aesthetic?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

It is. It's tough. Like, I remember in the 2000, like, 2007, when I first started working and we had older editors and they were like, oh, I'm not going to do this again. Like, I've already seen this come through. Like, I feel now that I'm the older editor, that's like, I'm not going to do this again. I've seen this come through. Like, you're not going to get me into low rise jeans. You're not going to get me hating the size of my butt. Like, I'm actively fighting against all of that. Like, you're not gonna clown me the way you clown JLo for having, like, a size six body. And, like, it's. It's just sort of stuff that we have to actively fight against. And so that's what we're trying to do at mc. When we think about, like, the women that we cast, the women that we tell stories about, the way we talk about fashion. So it's not about, like, real women's bodies, quote, unquote. I hate that term. Because every woman's body is real.

[Dory Shafrier]

Real.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Right, Right. If you say so. We're, you know, I'm actively trying to fight against language like that and really just be cognizant of the fact that, like, it is a very slippery slope and we have to be the people who fight against it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Are there more people like you who have lived through that period, more women of color in dis. In places of power now? Are there. Do you feel like there's more deciders that can speak up and push against some of these norms?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I think so. I think there are definitely more women of color. And then I think there are just women who were in this space in the early 2000s who were plus size or, you know, didn't come from affluent wealth or whatever. Like, there's just a bunch of, like, the. The pot of people who are deciders right now does not look the same way that it did in the early 2000s. And I'm very thankful for that. Or I should say the late 2000s. And I'm very thankful for that because it just helps when we can all band together and just be like, no, we don't. We don't want to see that anymore.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, so what do you think are going to be the things that, like, 20 years from now, people are going to be like, oh, I should have kept my oh, that's such a great question.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I should have kept my. Oh, that's interesting. I don't know, because I feel like we really are in a time right now when it comes to fashion where everything in the early 2000s, all the good stuff is coming back. So, like, a cropped leather jacket, like, make sure you hold on to that.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

A Bermuda short will always be. And, like, make sure you hold on to that. I really wish that I had kept, you know, some of my, like, slightly higher heels. I feel like I've gone only sandals, only sneakers, and, like, I could dress it up a little bit more. So, like, I wish I kept some of those. I think that this. I think people are going to run. Want to return to, like, dressing up a little bit. Like, we've sort of. We're sort of in coming off of the, like, strictly athleisure mind or the sort of athleisure trend. And I think that people are going to want to start getting dressed again. So anything that sort of enables that will be helpful.

[Dory Shafrier]

I think there's. I think that athleisure trend is true for, like, a lot of us, especially those of us here in Los Angeles or on the coasts. But then you also see the rise of MAGA makeup and that kind of dressing. Right. Like, that's really over the top in a way that even harkens to the 80s or something.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I know Lauren Sherman, who's a podcast host, always talks about her Republican blowout, which I think is very funny. It's a certain way that she likes to get her hair blown out. It's like, big and, like, you know, bouncy curls and that sort of thing. I don't know. I. I think that when we think about sort of like, the bodiness of it all the, like, overt wealth, displays of wealth, I think people will sort of look at that and be like, maybe that's kind of gross. Like, I don't know, like, maybe we should be going after just, like, clothing that is well made, whether it has a logo on it or not. Maybe we don't. I. One thing I do think that we're going to look back and, like, highly regret is dupe culture. So this idea that everyone has to have everything, you can buy all of the, like, you know, poorly made sort of dupes of what was. What is high fashion. I think we're going to look back on that moment and be like, whoa, did I really need to buy all that stuff, or could I have just been happy with either buying it? Secondhand or not buying it and like skipping out on it. Taking time to like really decide if you want it. I think we're going to be looking more so, not necessarily about like the things that we're buying, but like our shopping habits and really be like, I don't know about that, guys. Maybe that wasn't, maybe that wasn't the best.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Both of you are like, yeah, yeah, I know.

[Elise Hu]

Because it's so easy to get caught up in that. It's like, oh, well, I can't afford the four thousand dollar bag, but. Oh, this like one hundred twenty eight dollar bag maybe.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

But it's like, but do you even need the bag or is there something. Exactly.

[Elise Hu]

Right, Exactly.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Can you just clean out your, clean your closet? Like I've always found that, that just getting into my closet and reorganizing things, I'm like, oh, okay, I can I have the piece or I have a version of the piece and I can, I can put it together.

[Elise Hu]

Beauty wise, what are your like hero beauty products? Like the ones that you use all the time?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I'm super into merit. I love merit beauty. I think that the blush that they use I want to find because my makeup bag is actually in front of me.

[Elise Hu]

The.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

What is this called? The like little balm that they have. Have you guys seen these? Yeah, it's the blush balm. But you can also use it as like, you can use it like right here on your cheeks, but you can also use it on your lips. This is an apres, which I think is like a beautiful sort of berry color I use this year round.

[Elise Hu]

Love it.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Nars. I'm just going to take you guys through my makeup bag if that's fun. This is awesome.

[Dory Shafrier]

You're doing a live. What's in my makeup bag?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

What's in my makeup bag? This is my makeup bag.

[Dory Shafrier]

So cute.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

That's so cute. It's a little Louis Vuitton.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah. Kusama collaboration pouch and a small pouch.

[Dory Shafrier]

So you don't carry much makeup?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I don't carry much makeup. I, I will say that like, as I've become busier in my career, because of my career, I have cut down on makeup. So I don't do a lot of beauty. It's very like five minute face. So nars radiant creamy concealer is a go to of mine. I've been using it forever. Forever. I don't, I can't imagine switching to a new concealer. Like prove me wrong if I should. But that's always been a favorite of mine. My favorite beauty, like drugstore lip gloss is the Nyx butter gloss. Love Absolutely obsessed. Four bucks.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

This is in praline, but I have it in, like every single color. This is in every bag of mine. What else is in here? That's the good stuff. Usually the mascara that I'm wearing right now is buxom. Buxom mascara. It's really good. I don't like anything that's like, too. Thankfully I have, like, long lashes. It's, you know, my. My parents gave them to me. It's great. So I don't have to do anything crazy with my lashes. No lash extensions. Even if I didn't have lashes, I would never do lash extensions. I feel like that just is a slippery slope that many of my friends have fallen down, they highly regret. So none of those for me. And then I just fill in my brows with this nars sort of like black graffiti eyeshadow, actually. That's that simple.

[Dory Shafrier]

Great, great. Five minute face. Do you ever. Do you ever have, like, major change ups? Have you discovered anything new through your work because of Marie Claire that you're like, okay, I'm gonna have to work this in because it is that great.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I have. So the La Roche Posay sunscreen is the best. Like, everyone should get it. If you're ever in Paris, get it there. It's like, cheap. It's very drugstore. But it is truly the best. One of the best sunscreens that I've ever tried. It is. It comes out white, but it does not leave a cast on my skin, which is all you could ever hope for as when it comes to sunscreen. So I love la Roche Posay. Dr. Rose Engleton is my dermatologist and she has started her own line of cosmos of products. She has an incredible vitamin C serum that helps remove dark spots, like, works wonders. Love it. What else am I wearing right now? I haven't gotten it yet, but I really, really want to try Merit's tinted moisturizer. That's supposed to be incredible. And they're supposed to have like a real. Yeah, that's supposed to be a really good, wide, sweeping range of things of different shades. Those are my beauty ones.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, yeah. Great. Fantastic. Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

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[Elise Hu]

I'm curious, like, sort of along those same lines, you know, I'm, I'm assuming you're kind of like millennial. You're, you're a millennial and that you probably work with a lot of Gen Z people.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I love my Gen Z people.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Like, what have you taken from the Gen Z people? Yeah, I love this.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I, I have to say, like, I am very fortunate that every Gen ZR I work with has taught me in spades, like, how to drive, draw boundaries, but in a good way. Like, not, I can't do that. It's never any sort of like, I can't do that because I don't want to. It's just sort of like, hey, I can't do this right now, but I'll get to this when I can. And the way that they speak up for themselves, I wouldn't have dared to dream to do that in the early 2000s. Like, you guys know what it was like? It was like, all right, I guess I won't have lunch for, you know, I won't have lunch today and I'll just work through it and I'll work until midnight and that's just fine. Or I won't get paid for this internship. And I guess that's fine. I'm essentially paying to work here. And maybe, you know, it was like, like that was just the way that, I don't know, those were just, that was just the time. Right? And I think that Gen Z has done a really good job of making millennial managers specifically consider what they want to like, you know, like the generational curses that we want to break from our bosses, from like our Gen X bosses or whatever. So what good we want to take and what bad we want to take. And I think that's what's really special about being a millennial boss is that we do have that opportunity because we know the before times, but we also know what we hated. And we realize that we don't have to replicate that if we don't want to.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's hard, though, with this kind of generational battle, because, you know, I had a lot of Xer or Boomer bosses coming up, and they were sort of like, hey, be tough, because I had to be, you know, like, they didn't want to be more generous to the next generation that might have different norms and mores and expectations because they were like, well, it was hard for me. I had to deal with all this sexism, so you should, too.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

But how toxic is that?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. That's my whole beef.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

You know, that's such a terrible way of running a, an organization. Like, why, how does that help? Like, who does that help? You're on, like, a power trip, and I guess that helps, you know, you specifically. But, like, that all leaves us sort of, like, with the short end of the stick.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Moving forward. Yeah, that sucks.

[Dory Shafrier]

We should be better ancestors in that. Yeah, exactly.

[Elise Hu]

We're breaking these generational. Yeah. Patterns, so.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

And that is real. And it's, and it's a daily sort of. I wouldn't say struggle, but it is a sort of, like, thing that you have to think about, I think, as a millennial leader, where you don't fall back into those patterns. So, sure, if, like, I, thankfully, I don't have. I, I didn't have, like, terrible bosses, but, you know, I, I saw them, for sure, and there was yelling and there was making people cry, and sure, you know, you want to be able to express yourself, but you also realize that nobody wants to be on the receiving end of that. You have to do better.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Regulate your emotions. I always say I don't have children yet, but I imagine that this is what raising children is like as a millennial parent. Like, you're trying to do better than your parents.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, I, I, it's so funny you just said, regulate your emotions, because I'm always telling my kids, like, learning how to control your emotions is probably the most important thing.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah. You know, but imagine, you know, you're a millennial parent. It's like, okay, I have to learn how to regulate my emotions.

[Dory Shafrier]

I know, I know. I often say that. I'm like, sorry, Mama's got to go have a temper tantrum.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Do you know, it's fine.

[Dory Shafrier]

Having trouble controlling my emotions. Yeah.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

You can't take it out on your kids, but you're trying. You're trying to do better, and it is just a daily practice of trying to do better.

[Dory Shafrier]

Exactly. Exactly. Well, Nikki, you are a podcast host, too, so we wanted to ask you a bit about that. Hosting Nice Talk, as you mentioned for Marie Claire, what are some things that have stuck with you from your conversations because you have talked to so many really influential and interesting and dynamic women?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I love hosting Nice Talk. It has been such a revelation to me. Now I understand why everyone wants to be a podcaster. Like, this is a fun job. It really is. You get to talk to like, or I get to talk. You guys get to talk to amazing people for an hour and sort of like pick their brain about all the good things. You know, I've been really fortunate to have everyone from, you know, Lena Waithe and Coco Gauff was just on the podcast a couple of weeks ago to Chani Nicholas, who's this incredible astrologer. Paige Desorbo of Summer House fame was a favorite of mine. And it's really been Gabby. Wendy was really, really great. I got her just like, she's so funny. I think that, you know, on the podcast we talk to women about money and power and style and how those three things intersect in their lives and just learning about the various ways that you can have conversations or how these things intersect in these women's lives. Like, when I talked to Lena Waithe, she told me how she doesn't have imposter syndrome and she never has had imposter syndrome. And I was like, oh, I don't hear women say that often. And she was like, unabashed about it. That's incredible to hear, right? And those sort of light bulb moments happen all the time throughout the recordings of the podcast. I just had Charlotte Palermino on. She's the founder of Do Skin. And I asked her about this proliferation of celebrities being transparent about their plastic surgery, what her thoughts about it, and she said it was a recession indicator. And I was like, that is hysterical. And like, why do you think it's a recession indicator? You know, so we can get. Because like, transparency is sort of like an old school trick, like when people need to be relevant, then all of a sudden they become transparent again about like the sort of things that they're doing. It feels, it does feel very early 2000s, sort of in that way. OK. Yeah. So yes, it's those moments where you're just like, oh, I'd never thought about it that way. Or that, you know, it really makes you reconsider things. That's what I love about, about podcasting.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Coco Goth.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I'm so jealous. Coco Gauff is incredible, like, to be, you know, we talked to her.

[Dory Shafrier]

So poised and what is she like 21? 22? Maybe.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Maybe. It's crazy, but it was so funny to talk to her about, obviously, tennis, but she's super into fashion. So we talked about her Miu Miu kits and what it was like to be set and model with Mew Mew. We talked about her collaborations with New Balance and how she wants to push her style when she's, like, wearing her stuff on the court. It. She's just. She's such a dream and really was, like, quite generous with her time. And, you know, she's a kid, she's young, and so it was. It's really. It was really nice to hear from her.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

So I saw a TikTok that she posted within the last few days where she was watching Love island with a bunch of people and.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

N5. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And we know that you are a reality TV fan.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

The thing about reality TV that I always say is that it feels like a car wash for my brain, so I can just go in. I love that. Watch my little shows. I always say that when I watch Love Island, I'm checking in on my sims. You know, it just is a time to really, like, turn off my brain and not have to think about, like, all of the things with work in life and all of that. You can just sort of like, like, turn it off.

[Dory Shafrier]

Are you. Have you. Are. Are you a Survivor fan? Did you get into Traders?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Oh, I was a huge Traders fan, number one. I do not think I would do well on Traders. I actually sat next to Dylan Efron last week at a dinner and I was like, hey, I need you to tell me everything. I was like, did you feel like you were in an insane asylum on the show? And he was like, yeah, yes. It was absolutely crazy. He was like, by the end, I was begging to work out there. I was there for a month. You don't get to talk to, like, your family or your friends, and you're just, like, in your brain the whole time. It's crazy. Wow. I know. He's so nice, though. I loved. He, like, really indulged all of my questions, even though he did not ask. He.

[Elise Hu]

He, like, genuinely seems like a lovely person. Love it. So I'm glad to hear you say that.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

He was showing me, like, videos of his dog on the beach frolicking. It was very sweet.

[Elise Hu]

I mean, he. He has sort of, like golden retriever energy. So.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yes, very much so.

[Dory Shafrier]

If you were to be on a reality show, which one do you think you would be on or want to be on?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Oh, that's a good one. I don't think I would win Traitors, but I would want to be on Traitors. I think I'd want to be maybe on both. Big Brother.

[Dory Shafrier]

Ooh. Yeah.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I think that's one. Big brother is nice because it sort of is like love. No, it's sort of like, you know, love island a bit where you just like spend your time sitting around and talking. But then every once in a while there's a challenge and then America gets to vote for who's the best. Right. You know, I think I'm a pretty good leader as well, so I could probably like corral people to get. Get behind me and who we need to like.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Kick off or whatever. I would not do well on Survivor, though. I don't do bugs. I don't know. I could not forage for my own. Like, I'd be like, take me off. Take me off immediately. Would not.

[Elise Hu]

Would you, if you were on Traders, would you want to be a trader or faithful?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I think I'd want to be a trader. Honestly, I. I think I could fit my way through. I think I'd be able to lie. I think if I were a trader and we had to sit in that round table and just get it wrong time after time after time, I would just be like, cut the tape. Like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'd be like, get me out of here. No one is paying attention.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, my go.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

You know?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, yes.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

And I could never do Housewives. Like, I, I could be a friend of on housewives that I would love to do.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, yeah, Like a secondary character.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Totally. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Those folks seem like they're having a good time.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Golden. Like nothing really happens to them. They're usually the person that gets to come in and they're like, you know, the person that gives the side eye to the camera. They're like, we don't really know what's going on. Would love to be a friend of. But I don't think I could be a main housewife.

[Elise Hu]

Which, which franchise is.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Ah, great question. I could probably do New York. I mean, obviously I live here, so I could do New York. The. I don't think I'm like quick witted or sharp enough to be on Atlanta. Like, those girls really, like, the one liners are just incredible. They're. They're an iconic sort of franchise.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm so glad we went down this little sojourn.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Who knew you knew the Pantheon so well?

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I didn't. I am. Andy, listen up. I could Be a bartender on Watch what Happens Live. And I could also be a great friend of.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I feel like, like, given your job, like, I feel like they could make that happen.

[Dory Shafrier]

This is not that far off for you. This is not like a far off.

[Elise Hu]

Dream getting on what happened Watch what happens Live. Like, not. That's not crazy.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I know, right?

[Elise Hu]

Let's put that out into the universe.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah, we gotta put it out there. Let's manifest it for you. Manifest it for me. All right.

[Dory Shafrier]

And Nikki, before we let you go, just because it's 20, 25 and a time of chaos, we'd love to get your advice or what you've been saying to younger people about getting through, you know, given the state of things. State of the world right now.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Oh, that's such a great question. You know, I really do try to practice, like, realizing that you can only control your response to things. Like, it's so easy to get whipped up and it's so easy to doom scroll and feel and feel like you can't make a difference. And you see, when people are like, you know, there's a. There's a listlessness, there is a sort of like, nihilism. But I find. I find that really sort of troubling and disturbing. I think that we really have to, as I've said, like, sort of actively fight against these things. Like, we really have to control what we can control. And I do believe that's showing up for your community, volunteering, really being thankful about the way that you participate in your community and the types of stories that you're telling, your consumption of media and what you are sharing or what you're allowing to come into your sort of, you know, your orbit and really just realizing that, like, you can be an active participant in your life and you should behave as such.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. What a great.

[Elise Hu]

Because it is so easy to just be like, oh, it's all so terrible. I'm just going to like, go into my little cocoon and hide.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

You know, and I love your kind of outlook on this.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

I think so. And you know, I just telling somebody the other day, like, I think that there is a. There is a sort of trend in thinking that, like, trying is bad and that you shouldn't try, you should not be cringe. But I don't agree with that. Like, I think that trying your best at something is admirable, even if you fail. Like, at least you tried. Yeah, this is very, like, inspirational speech, which I did not mean it to be, but I do think there's something to Be said for, like, really trying and pushing yourself to try and knowing that even if you don't, you know, sort of achieve what you wanted to achieve, like, at least you. You dared to try.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Beautiful.

[Elise Hu]

Well, Nikki, it was such a pleasure to get to talk to you. I. I wish we could just kind of, like, gab for the rest of the day, but I guess you have to get back to your important job. Thank you so much. Yeah, this was really fun.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

This is great, right?

[Dory Shafrier]

Thank you, Nikki. And we are back with the intention zone. But let's check in on last week's intentions first. Dory, you alluded to this already, so you go first.

[Elise Hu]

I did. I said I was going to not I. I was going to try to not focus on winning and losing. And, like, that was easier said than done, quite honestly. You know, you're. You're really, like, feeling the pressure to win and make nationals, and I definitely put a lot of that pressure on myself. So I don't think I really succeeded in this intention this week. I just want to enjoy my time with family.

[Dory Shafrier]

And we want you to, too. What a great opportunity to be back with your brother and sister and the cousins. Being together is going to be cool, too. My intention last week was to stretch. I did try and stretch a lot more, though. I am. I've been bicycling as I've been in Aspen, and so I have, like, new tightness. So even though my stretching addressed the tightness from last week, now I have to adjust my stretches.

[Elise Hu]

Mm.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. And then this week, the kids are back from sleepaway camp, but I had to kind of leave right after they got back, so I really haven't gotten to spend much time with the girls. So my. I guess my intention mirrors yours. Mine's also to enjoy time with family, but just to enjoy time with family in LA.

[Elise Hu]

Gotcha. Okay.

[Nikki Ogunaki]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Great. Well, thanks, everyone for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doria Shafrier, Emilyce Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks, everyone. Take care.

[Dory Shafrier]

We'll talk to you next time.

[Elise Hu]

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