Episode 367: Be A Try Hard with Alex Laughlin

Summary

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Forever35, Episode 367: “Be A Try Hard with Alex Laughlin”

Date: September 1, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Alex Sujong Laughlin

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and self-aware episode, Doree and Elise welcome writer and audio producer Alex Sujong Laughlin to talk about her new podcast “Try Hard,” what it means to embrace trying (and being called a "try hard"), creative risks, and the journey of making space for yourself—whether in media, hobbies, or self-care. The conversation weaves together self-care rituals, media nostalgia, the evolution of podcasting and media careers, and reflections on creative voice and collaboration.

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Main Themes & Discussion Points

1. Catching Up: Nostalgia and Self-Care Updates

00:41–08:39

• Elise shares excitement about reliving her millennial college days at concerts (Nelly, Ja Rule, Eve, and upcoming Baby Face + KC of KC & JoJo), reflecting on music’s ability to connect to past versions of ourselves.

  • “It was a real full circle moment to see Ja again… this buffet of performers, love it.” — Elise (04:21)

• Doree discusses a recent tennis match and her experience with microneedling as a new self-care step, including cost, aftercare, and how it compares to other cosmetic procedures.

• The hosts discuss skincare and handling sunspots, with advice on products (vitamin C, glycolic acid), in-office procedures (laser, freezing), and general philosophy about investing in dermatology.

2. Introducing Alex Laughlin: Self-Care & The Artist’s Way

13:42–19:26

• Alex reflects on fighting for “dominance over her brain” with her phone and the reward of morning journaling over scrolling.

  • “When I do manage to let my better side win and stay off the Internet, I really like journaling in the morning.” — Alex (14:49)

• Shares how “The Artist’s Way” practice of Morning Pages (handwritten journaling) with colleagues changed her relationship to mornings and creativity.

• Alex details her notebook system, breaking it into four special-purpose journals:

  • Long-term project ideas
  • Daily diary & morning pages
  • Work/logistics (weekly/daily to-do lists)
  • Media journal (tracking books, movies, impressions)

3. Media Tracking and Book Recommendations

17:29–19:09

• Alex and Elise compare systems for tracking books (spreadsheet vs. Goodreads vs. notebook).
• Alex recommends American Bulk by Emily Mester for its honest, unflinching essays on excess and shopping addiction.
  • “She’s really not afraid to make herself look ugly or unappealing in a way that I found incredibly comforting.”—Alex (18:26)

4. Try Hard: The Podcast, Its Origins, and Reclaiming “Try Hard”

19:09–27:04

• Alex’s new show invites people to reclaim their “try hard” nature and tackle a project or skill they’ve wanted to try (with support and sometimes a small budget).

  • “I think that everybody has that thing that they wish they could do if they just admitted to themselves that they wanted to do it… once I started talking about this project, my friends immediately had those things.” — Alex (19:27)

• Example: In the first Try Hard episode, a guest overcomes anxiety about a group yoga class, highlighting how small dreams often mask deeper blocks.

  • “She almost bailed on me, but she did it... She’s broken that seal of anxiety.” — Alex (21:46)

• Alex shares that hosting Try Hard is her own “try hard” move—transitioning from producing to putting herself out there as a host.

On the “Try Hard” stigma:

• “The term try hard has become so derogatory... and I love that you’re kind of reclaiming this term. It shouldn't be derogatory to want to try something new.” — Doree (22:59)
• Alex’s mission: Drop the need to seem “cool” and embrace being earnest, even if it feels a little cringe or vulnerable.
  • “I have never been accused of being cool and I have no interest in trying to be cool... the most valuable things in life, you get access to them once you let yourself drop the facade of, I’ve got it, I know what I’m doing. You have to look and feel a little stupid to do anything of value.” — Alex (23:50)

5. Millennial Earnestness vs. Gen Z Irony & Media Evolution

24:55–27:42

• Discussion on generational attitudes: millennials as “too earnest,” Gen Z as more detached/ironic.

  • “On the fan to hater spectrum, I’m always going to err on the side of fan because I’m just like, wow, it’s so cool that you guys made this thing. And I know it’s goofy…” — Alex (25:09)

• Doree adds context as a Gen Xer, observing the original irony of her cohort and how embracing earnestness felt radical at Buzzfeed.

6. Working at Defector Media & Normal Gossip Origin Story

29:42–36:05

• Alex explains Defector as a cooperatively owned media company—everyone is a co-owner and votes on key matters, making it both rewarding and frustrating.

  • “It's frustrating sometimes, but it's such an honor… dealing with these problems, as opposed to, you know, our billionaire boss has decided to pivot to being a Republican.” — Alex (30:03)

• The meet-cute professional story with Kelsey McKinney: both tracked each other as college rivals, then met later at Defector, becoming great creative collaborators.

7. Stepping Away from a Hit: Leaving Normal Gossip

35:51–37:33

• Alex describes the bittersweet process of stepping back from the hugely successful podcast Normal Gossip, acknowledging pride in the team's evolution and the challenge of forging a new identity post-success.
  • “It's definitely a little scary to be like, who am I without Normal Gossip? But that’s part of why I am working on a new project.” — Alex (36:31)

8. Creativity, Voice, and Advice for Aspiring Podcasters

37:33–43:52

• Lessons from Normal Gossip: Years spent producing for others strengthened Alex’s creative execution, but experimenting with her own “silly, literal” style led to breakout success.

  • “There’s something to be said about putting in the years and really doing the work that you don’t really want to do for a long time… and then coming out the other end and knowing what you want to make.” — Alex (39:39)

• Advice for aspiring audio folks:

  • Listen widely. Know your taste and why you like what you like.

  • Just start. The best way to learn is by making (“especially if it’s bad”) and the barriers to entry are lower than ever.

  • “Nobody's going to be like, hey, you, 23-year-old with a dream—how's about you pick up a mic? Like, nobody’s going to say that... you have to show them you want to do this thing.” — Alex (43:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Journaling/Self-Care:
  “I have all kinds of apps that keep me off of my phone at night and in the mornings... but when my better side wins... I really like journaling.” — Alex (14:17)
• On Creative Vulnerability:
  “You have to look and feel a little stupid to do anything of value.” — Alex (24:55)
• On Millennial vs. Gen Z:
  “I think millennials are known as being too earnest... Gen Z is cool and irreverent and maybe at a remove. How did this happen? What is the cost of it?” — Elise (24:55)
• On Defector’s Co-op Life:
  “It’s hours-long discussions about whether to start a Slack channel about something… but it’s such an honor to be doing this kind of hard work.” — Alex (30:03)
• On Rejection and Collaboration:
  (On not getting a fellowship job Kelsey did): “This bitch. We have the same resume!” — Alex (33:52, playful tone)
• On Podcasting Advice:
  “Listen to a lot of stuff and know what you like and know why you like it... And just get started, especially if it’s bad.” — Alex (42:27–43:52)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:41–08:39 — Host check-in: concerts, microneedling, skincare, and sunspots
• 13:42–19:26 — Alex’s self-care: journaling and notebooks
• 19:09–23:50 — Try Hard podcast: premise, ethos, reclaiming “try hard”
• 24:55–27:42 — Millennial vs. Gen Z earnestness, Buzzfeed legacy
• 29:42–32:50 — Defector Media: the co-op experiment
• 35:51–37:33 — Moving on from Normal Gossip and creative identity
• 37:33–43:52 — Lessons from creative risks and advice for aspiring podcasters

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Where to Find Alex & Try Hard

• Listen to Try Hard wherever you get your podcasts.
• Alex is on Instagram: @alexlafs.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode is a celebration of trying, of being a "try hard" in the best sense: pursuing growth, following creative impulses, and finding connection in earnestness and vulnerability. Alex, Doree, and Elise remind us that real self-care isn’t about being perfect, but about giving yourself permission to do—badly, bravely, and honestly.

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Transcript

[Elise Hu]

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[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

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[Dori Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we are just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dori Shafrier]

And today we have a great guest, Alex Sujong Laughlin, who I sort of knew at buzzfeed, but she is an amazing podcast producer and host and writer and she's just done some really cool stuff. She's a great new podcast called Try Hard. But in the meantime, Elise, how are you?

[Elise Hu]

Well, I had a big weekend. I had a big weekend and I have a big night coming up tonight which is sort of on the same theme. It is. I don't know if you know about this, Dor. I'm sure some of our listeners are hip to this. It is the 25 year anniversary of Nelly's Country Grammar album.

[Dori Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

And I went to the University of Missouri and was a freshman there in the year 2000 and so there was no bigger song. You know, Nelly is St. Louis's biggest hype man of all time.

[Dori Shafrier]

And so St. Louis own.

[Elise Hu]

Exactly. St. Louis own. But I can't. Even when I think about the way that Nelly really associates with St. Louis, I can't think of anybody else who associates with St. Louis as strongly and oh, that's interesting. As Nelly. I mean, who else can we think of? There's baseball players, Ozzie Smith, he was huge. St. Louis Cardinals, Ellie Kemper, she's from St. Louis. She was big from. From the office. I don't know why we know that she's from St. Louis. I think maybe Jenna Fisher too. Right now that we're thinking about The Office cast. But anyway, so I. I think of Nellie and I think of St. Louis, and I think of being in college at the University of Missouri just after Country Grammar came out, because it was 25 years ago, was the year 2000, and so there was no bigger song Rush Week 2000 at the University of Missouri than Nelly's Country Grammar. And it's the one with I'm from the Loo and I'm proud and. But there was also. Yeah, yeah. There was also Ei, the one that was like underle andalay Mama. Yeah, yeah. So that when it was on from that album. And then Ride With Me is on that album, which is just. Just one banger after another. And I haven't seen Nelly live. I saw him in person during Ferguson, when I was covering Ferguson, which happened in St. Louis. Nelly came out to support the protesters and the demonstrators. I saw him there, but never heard him sing live. So finally got to see Nelly last weekend and he was performing with the one and only Ja Rule and Eve E V E. It was huge. The mom friends organized this. So the moms of my third grader, they were all elder millennials like me and knew every line of every song. I had already seen Ja Rule and Eve live, but the last time I had seen them together was my 21st birthday.

[Dori Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

When I was still in college at the University of Missouri. So it was a real full circle moment to see Jah. To see Jah again. And then tonight, my friend Cal had last minute tickets to see. Wait for It. Baby Face and Casey of Casey and Jojo at the Hollywood Bowl. No, it's really. I'm really reliving. Reliving the youth. Reliving like the youth rap and R and B hits and performers. I didn't get to go see Backstreet Boys at the Sphere like so many other friends of mine did, but I. I feel like I got a full throwback experience. This buffet of performers love it. That's kind of like the big headline in my world. And the kids, you know, being back to school and Ava's doing volleyball practice. What about you? Tell me about your weekend. Catch me up. What's happening?

[Dori Shafrier]

What is happening? Elise? That's a great question. What did I do this past weekend? I had a tennis match on Sunday. We lost. It was a good match, though. It was a mixed match.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I don't.

[Dori Shafrier]

I don't like, love mixed doubles. It's not like my fave, but it was fun. I like my doubles partner, so that was really fun. And then I Mentioned this on the casual chat, but I did get micro needling yesterday, which is kind of cool. I've been like, micro needling curious for a long time and finally decided. Decided to just take the plunge, as it were. So. Yeah, so that's exciting. I was super red yesterday. They said I would be red for like, 48 hours, and today I'm not really red.

[Elise Hu]

No, you don't look red.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, my skin does feel kind of like, tight and itchy, but I'm not, I'm not like, bright red, so that's good.

[Elise Hu]

Is micro needling very expensive? Like, I've only done it in Korea, so I, which, whose prices are like a fraction of every, for every cosmetic procedure.

[Dori Shafrier]

So, um, it's not like, insanely expensive. I think it's cheaper than most lasers.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Okay. Cause I really want to do IPL again. And I don't, I, I, But I hear that in the states it's like 500 to a thousand or something like that.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, I think that's, I think that's generally how much it is.

[Elise Hu]

Well, I will put this question out then to you and any of our listeners. I, like, have always had freckles. I like my freckles. They always come out in full force when it's, you know, summer and times of high UV and everything. And I've noticed the freckles are quite prominent. That's fine. But some of my freckles are, like, bigger than freckles. There are sunspots or they're just kind of like dark spots.

[Dori Shafrier]

And I.

[Elise Hu]

Those I don't like as much. So what should I be using on. I don't know if I need to be using, like, is it glycolic acid, so. Or something specific. On the area where I'm actually getting.

[Dori Shafrier]

Sunspots, I would use a lot of vitamin C, but then I would also probably get them either either lasered or frozen off because. Is that also going to be super expensive? It's not that much. I mean, I mean, nothing is going to be like $50, but it's not like thousands of dollars.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

And the thing is, like, they will come back if you don't stay out of the sun. It's not like a permanent thing to your face, but they can get rid of the specific ones. I've gotten both done. I think the laser is good if you have a lot of spots you want to get rid of and the freezing is good, especially if you have larger ones. I had a couple. One on my leg and one on my arm. That I wanted to get rid of that were kind of big. And so if you have them in, like, different areas, sometimes just like, freezing off these individual spots is the best way to go. But your dermatologist can tell you what they recommend.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, okay, I'll go talk to her. My dermatologist is a woman I met in a book club.

[Dori Shafrier]

That tracks for you. Meeting Elise's friends is so funny because it's like, oh, how do you know Elise? And it's either like, I was her college roommate or it's like we met in an airport.

[Elise Hu]

A lot of people are like, dudes, I used to date. It's like, there's so many. Yeah. And then they all have nicknames, you know, because as you know, I nickname the dudes that I dated. And so they'll show up at the party and I'm like, oh, that's Tabloid Joel, and that's Canadian Tim, and that's British Tim. Dating was fun because I got to collect some new friends. You know, the ones that were.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, my gosh.

[Elise Hu]

That you could keep, obviously. It's case by case. It's case by case.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes, of course, of course. Well, Elise, should we introduce our guest?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, let's do it. Alex Laughlin is a writer and audio producer. The work she's most proud of interrogates power in relation to visibility, narrative making, and collective memory. And you can see how that plays out in her work as an audio producer. You probably know her work at Normal Gossip as the creator, co creator and producer of the iconic podcast Normal Gossip. She loves to talk about her hobbies, which are weightlifting and knitting and her trash cat, pong. She's a supervising producer and co owner at Defector Media. And as Dory mentioned, she is the host of a really exciting new podcast called Try Hard, which we get into in our conversation.

[Dori Shafrier]

And before we get to our chat with Alex, just a reminder that you can Visit our website forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we and our guests mention on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com forever35. We have our casual chats there. We have our monthly pop culture recommendation episodes. We have ad free episodes. There's a lot happening over there, so check that out at patreon.com forever35. Our favorite products are at Shopmy US Forever 35. And our newsletter is at forever35podcast.com newsletter and please call or text us at 781-591-0390. You can also email us at forever35podcastmail.com you can also email us a voice memo at forever35podcastmail.com please do not text us voice memos. Google Voice doesn't like that. All right, we will be right back with Alex.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be right back.

[Dori Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrier]

Alex, welcome to Forever35. We are so happy to have you on the show.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Oh, I am so amped to be here. I have been a Forever 35 listener since I was closer to 25, and now I am closer to 35, which is really exciting.

[Dori Shafrier]

Wow. Yeah, the show's been around for, for a while. Well, as you know, we do like to start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So is there anything that you would like to share that you would consider self care right now?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

So I'm always in a fight with my phone for dominance over my brain. And so I have all kinds of apps that keep me off of my phone at night and in the mornings and. And I mostly listen to them, but sometimes I bypass them because I'm addicted to technology. But when I. When I do manage to let my. My better side win and stay off of the Internet, I really like journaling in the morning.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, nice.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I did the the Artist's Way earlier this year with a lot of my colleagues from Defector, and it got me into the habit of like several months in a row, journaling every morning, first thing in the morning. And I don't know how I did that, but I'd like to get back to it. It was great.

[Dori Shafrier]

And you were writing like the Artist Way has. You write longhand. So you were writing longhand?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah, by hand. I have this journal. It's actually right here. It's called a Louise Carmen journal, and it's kind of like a big thing on TikTok among paper freaks. But it's a traveler's notebook. So you have four notebooks in here. So they all serve different purposes. And then you can, you can replace them once you fill them up. So the journal itself is this beautiful leather product that I have my initials on it, and this gets to stay with me. And then I can just switch out the notebooks that are inside.

[Dori Shafrier]

Wait, this is very cool. And I might be. I'm not totally a paper freak, but I do like a notebook.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Oh, it's a good notebook.

[Dori Shafrier]

So I'm tempted.

[Elise Hu]

Can you break down the different purposes that the four notebooks in there serve?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I would love to. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so the first one is for a long term project that I have yet to announce. Okay. But I can tell you guys about it later. The second one is my diary. Just my classic, like, these are my feelings. This is where I do morning pages or any other kind of complaining. The next one is I call it work and logistics. So it's to do lists. It's like, at the beginning of each week, I sit down and I make, like, a master to do list that has sections for all of my different projects and personal life. And then each day, I pull from that giant weekly to do list and decide what needs to get done that day. And then the last one is my media journal, where I write about books I read and movies I've watched, because I realized last year that I had read so many books and I couldn't remember a single one, and I didn't have any opinions about them.

[Elise Hu]

I keep a spreadsheet so that I can highlight the ones that I liked, and then that way I can go back. And when people ask me for recommendations or like, hey, what stood out to you this year? I'm actually like, okay, let me check. I also do this when people ask me how old my kids are, I just have to go back to the spreadsheet because it has their birth dates and it automatically counts. It's like, oh, yeah, this one is 13 now.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah. But I used to use Goodreads for years. But I realized that at a certain point, I was performing for Goodreads. Like, I was so aware of what people would think if they saw how many books I read. Did I meet my goal for the year? What books was I reading? And I was like, this is. This is not what reading is about, actually.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. My Goodreads is so chaotic because it only counts what I happen to read on an E reader that asks me, do you want to say that you're reading this on Goodreads? And so anytime I read on paper or I read PDF or I audiobook, like, it's just not counted. And so, you know, it's better to just keep track on your own. Well, if you were to open that up, Alex, the fourth notebook, the one with media consumption. What stands out to you? What shows or books, like, really struck you this year or did you find most compelling that we want to give you the floor before we talk about your projects.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I read an essay collection earlier this year called American Bulk by Emily Mester, and it's an essay collection that's about, essentially, excess in all of its forms. So Mester is a sort of admitted shopaholic and so she writes essays about shopping addiction, but also just the. The thrill and also the sickness of acquiring things. And it's so beautiful. And also, like, really, she's really not afraid to make herself look ugly or unappealing in a way that I found incredibly comforting and also really interesting to read.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, love that.

[Dori Shafrier]

I loved it.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

So good.

[Dori Shafrier]

So, Alex, you have a new podcast called Try Hard, and I would love to hear a little bit about the show, the origin story behind it, what you've been doing with it so far. Just tell us all the things.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah. So Try Hard is a show where I get together with a person and I'm like, if you could do anything, if you had all the time in the world or the excuse to do it, or $500, we do, like, help reimburse people. What would you do? And I am really obsessed with this because I think that everybody has that thing that they wish they could do if they just admitted to themselves that they wanted to do it or gave themselves the time to actually try it. And once I started talking about this project, even just among friends, they were like, oh, yeah, like, I always wished I could sketch more. I really love sketching, and I just don't do it enough. It was really exciting even before the show launched to see the way that, like, these conversations were percolating in my social groups. I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't wait to see what happens on a bigger scale. So on the show, I get with a person and I'm like, what would you do? What would your thing be? And then we talk through why they haven't done it yet. Like, what are the blocks? Because usually, like, there's a. There's a block that you have in your mind, but then that's actually a stand in for other reasons that are a lot bigger and kind of port over to other parts of your life too. And so we talk through that. It's like kind of a therapy session, and then we set a goal together and they go do the thing.

[Elise Hu]

Give us examples of things that you have helped people get to do or try.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah, so on the first episode, I had Maddie Lipchansky take a group yoga class. So, like, that's something that's really ordinary, right? It's like something that, you know, you don't get a medal for necessarily. But she had, like, really serious anxiety about doing fitness in a group context. Um, she's a trans woman. And so the gendered aspect of yoga classes in particular, just. It just heightened the anxiety of all of It. And so she did a couple of weeks of yoga with Adrian videos at home, and then she went to a yoga class, and she almost didn't do it. She, like, almost bailed on me, but. But she did it, and.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, wow.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah, she made it through. And the thing is, like, you know, she didn't go to the class, and suddenly, like, all of her problems are fixed. And, like, now she's like a master yogi, but, you know, she has broken that seal of anxiety where she's like, okay, I've done it. Yeah, I can do it again.

[Elise Hu]

What do you feel like is yours if another per. Another podcast host who kind of played your role in this show came to you and said, if you were free of any sort of barriers, financial or otherwise, what would you want to try?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I feel like I live my life in a very Try Hard way as it is. So, like, in the last couple of years, I have taken banjo lessons, I've taken voice lessons. I auditioned for a play, and I was in a play earlier this year, which that's the first time I've done theater since middle school. But I think that, honestly, hosting a show is my try Hard. And so, like, me hosting this show is me actively doing the thing that I really wanted to do and haven't done yet because I was kind of embarrassed to admit that I wanted to host and not just produce.

[Elise Hu]

Oh.

[Dori Shafrier]

You know, I love the title of the show because the term try hard has become so derogatory. And, you know, there's this idea that if you are a try hard, then you're just kind of a loser. And I love that you're kind of, like, reclaiming this term. Right. Because it shouldn't be derogatory to want to try something new and to actually, like, put yourself out there and do something. And, you know, I think there's. There's this association of being a try hard with being a millennial. And.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Dori Shafrier]

I'm just wondering if, like, being cringe. Yeah, I'm one. Yeah. Millennial cringe. And I'm wondering if you had, you know, if that was kind of a deliberate choice and what your thinking was behind naming the show Try Hard.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah, I mean, Try Hard was the name of the show from the very beginning, and I experimented with naming it other things, but in my heart, I was like, this is what this is. Like, this is the ethos. This is the vibe. I know what it is. I have never been accused of being cool, and I have no interest in trying to be cool. I just, like, I. I have tried in the past, you know, like, in my adolescence, and it feels fake. And it also is not as fun. And the times that I've had the most fun in my life are when I just sort of let go of the need to perform in some way or seem like I have it figured out because I think, like, the most valuable things in life, you. You get access to them. Once you have, like, let yourself drop the facade of, I've got it, I know what I'm doing. Like, you have to look and feel a little stupid to do anything of value.

[Elise Hu]

I think millennials are known as being too earnest. And then Gen Z is, like, cool and irreverent and maybe at a remove. How did this happen? What is the cost of it?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a real thing. I think, like, you know, I heard on another podcast that the. I think it was on Hunter Harris's podcast, they said that the greatest indicator of a millennial is whether you thought working at buzzfeed was cool. And as to buzzfeed alums here, guilty. I think that, like, it speaks definitely to, you know, where the politics of the world has been in the last 20 years. There was a brief glimmering moment of hope for millennials, but for Gen Z, it's kind of been bad on top of bad the whole time. And so I don't begrudge anybody who feels a sense of, like, nihilism or wants to sort of protect themselves with a layer of sarcasm or irony, but that's. That's something that is just not really accessible to me. And I've tried to access it because I think it's. I think it seems cool. Like, I work at Defector, which is, like, a very snarky place, and, like, everybody's very cool there, and they have interesting opinions and they're very critique heavy. And I just, you know, on the fan to hater spectrum, I'm always going to err on the side of fan because I'm just like, wow, it's so cool that you guys made this thing. And I know it's goofy and it's like, I don't know. I. I think there's. There's stuff to be gained from both sides. You know, I think that, like, being too credulous about the culture you're consuming or the politics of the moment you're in is definitely harmful, but I also think that you hurt yourself if you close yourself off from earnestness.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah. I mean, it's so funny to look back on buzzfeed now as this sort of historical artifact, but it was this very particular moment in time. And, you know, I'm more on the Gen X side of things. So we came at things from a very ironic standpoint. And so initially for me, the sort of earnestness of buzzfeed was a little bit like, whoa, like where am I? But then I grew to embrace it. I was like, oh, this is actually like a nicer way to live.

[Elise Hu]

So, okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. The kids are off to school and I'm left feeling that nostalgia of a fresh start to the school year. The Urge to Learn Something New Thankfully, I don't have to do anything more than just open up my Masterclass app and hop into a lesson about my skin from the original series skin Health with Dr. Sherene Idris. It's 10 minutes. I learned something new about how to care for the largest organ on our bodies and satisfy that urge to learn without the nuisance of actually going back to school. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. With plans starting at $10 a month build annually, you'll get unlimited access to over 200 plus classes taught by the world's best best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. With Masterclass, you get thousands of bite sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] forever35 plus every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee, so there's no risk. That's 15% [e-mail] forever35 masterclass.com forever35 ever.

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[Dori Shafrier]

You know, you mentioned defector and I actually wanted to ask you about Defector, which, you know, is a successful employee owned media company, which is very rare. Could you explain to our listeners what Defector is if they're not familiar with it, and what the. What the sort of structure of it is as well?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah. So Defector Media is a cooperatively owned website. We cover sports, politics, and pop culture. We do a lot of media criticism as well. And the structure is that we have, I think it's either 27 or 28 employees. And all of us are co owners. We are all equal co owners of the company. And what that means is that any major decisions, hiring, firing, business decisions where we, you know, take on contracts or salary decisions, how much people are paid, all of that is voted on by the company, which is really, really cool. And yeah, I've. I've been working with Defector for four years. We're about to have our fifth birthday. I got involved right around their first birthday and then became full time about a year later. And so I've gotten to see how the company's grown, which is like, really cool. And it's a lot of work. It's like very hard. Like every. Every stereotype you can imagine about the Park Slope co op. Like, apply that to media. And here you are, it's hours long discussions about whether to start a slack channel about something. But what I always tell people is, yes, it's a lot of work. It's frustrating sometimes, but it's such an honor to be doing this kind of hard work and to be dealing with these problems as opposed to, like, you know, our billionaire boss has decided to pivot to being a Republican.

[Elise Hu]

Right, right. And then now we don't have editorial pages or whatever it is that's going on at the Washington Post.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

You and Kelsey work together. Kelsey McKinney, who's also been on this show and formerly hosted Normal Gossip, is also still at Defector. You and Kelsey worked together at buzzfeed, right? If I'm remembering correctly. No. How did you two come together and.

[Dori Shafrier]

Make Kelsey worked at Buzzfeed?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Oh, my gosh. She didn't. Oh, she was. She was of the milieu, but she never crossed its doors, actually. So Kelsey and I have such a funny origin story. Well, okay, so Elise, I know you because.

[Elise Hu]

Through your dad.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah, because my dad was like in the tech world in Austin when you were in Austin, and he was like, I know someone who works at npr. And I was like, oh, my God. So I was this really thirsty college student who really just wanted to be around audio. And I was like, trying to meet everybody I could.

[Elise Hu]

I knew Alex's dad first. Correct.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

I've also hung out with your mom. We've hung out with your mom in Korea.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yep. You have the rare honor of having met both of my divorced parents. Anyway, I swear, this connects to normal gossip, but. So in college, I was. I was this really, like, girl, bossy, try hard, you know, wannabe journalist. And I applied for a fellowship at what would become fox.com at the time it was called Project X. And it was Ezra Klein's really interesting new new blog that he was starting. And I interviewed for it. I did a couple. I think I was in, like, the final rounds. And then I didn't get the job, and I was heartbroken. And who got the job but one? Kelsey McKinney, a fellow graduate who was graduating from UT. I was graduating from UGA, so I was like, this bitch.

[Elise Hu]

She was your rival.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

We have the same resume. What is going on?

[Elise Hu]

Oh, you two are an enemies to lovers trope.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah, I mean, it was only on my end. She didn't know I existed, but I followed her on Twitter then and then, you know, through the years. We both lived in D.C. and we had mutual friends, but we never really met. We were, you know, Twitter buddies because we both watched the Bachelor, we both listened to Taylor Swift, and like, you know, whenever a new album would come out, we'd both be tweeting about it. But I. We didn't start working together until 2021. And it was when I had quit my job at a production company and I decided to go freelance. And somebody sent me this listing for a podcast producer job at Defector. That was just a contract gig. And I had a call and then I had another call, and then Kelsey and I met and it was like, I don't know, we fell in love. It was like love at first sight. And we had a really special creative collaboration where it's rare that you have these. And I've only had it once or twice in my life where you're just really on the same wavelength and you also complement each other in really good ways.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

And so, yeah, normal gossip for me was supposed to be a three month contract through my first winter of freelancing. I was like, I'm done producing podcasts for a while, so I'll just do this for three months while I'm getting on my feet freelancing. And yeah, it completely changed my life.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

That's so cool. I also know the feeling of, like, being up for a job and then Seeing who got it and like, being like, curses, but also like, this person actually seems cool.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

You know, can't hate them.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Exactly. Yeah. It's like, I would hate you, but I think you're really awesome. So let's be friends. Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

I mean, Normal Gossip became such a phenomenon and, you know, I'm wondering, like, how has it been for you stepping away from this, like, hugely successful show?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

It's so many feelings. For this past season, I was still very involved with the show, so I was in every meeting, I was listening to every draft, I was giving edits on everything. But right now the team is in pre production for the next season and I am not a part of selecting the stories for the first time ever and.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, wow.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

It's really complicated. Yeah, I'm really proud of them for what they're doing and, like, they're taking it in their own direction and, like, putting their own mark on it. And I was ready to step away, but it's still. It's still complicated to. To move on. And it's definitely a little scary to be like, who am I without Normal Gossip? But that's part of why I am working on a new project.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, exactly. And not just that one, but the other one in your other notebook.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

So secret project.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. It seems like you are in a time of creative experimentation and abundance, which is fantastic. Now that you're sort of looking back on a time in your life that like, really a creative collaboration that was very fruitful for you, and then a project that ended up making such a imprint and such a cultural impact, what do you feel like you've taken away from it?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

When I started producing Normal Gossip, I had been a producer for several years. At that point, I had worked on dozens of shows, I'd launched dozens of shows of all different types of styles, and I hadn't worked in my own voice in a really long time because, you know, I was working at buzzfeed or I was working at a production company where we were making shows for other clients. I was, you know, making a show for Morgan Stanley or for Google or whatever. So you're writing in their voice, you're creating in their voice, and that is a really great way to train the, like, doing part of being creative, but it's less good for training your actual voice and, you know, expressing who you are. So when I was starting at Normal Gossip, I had the freedom to make a lot of weird choices, whether that was like really literal sound design or really, really stupid jokes that I thought were really funny. And I remember when I turned in the episodes, I was shocked that nobody sort of reigned me back in, because that's usually what happens. You know, I had people editing me, people were giving me feedback, but it wasn't the way that it usually had been at previous jobs where they were like, you know, oh, we need to completely rethink how we're doing this, because this is not at all the voice that we want to be using. And when the show came out, those parts of the production, the sort of cartoonish sound design and the silliness of it were. Were the things that, like, really resonated with people. And I got word from people at other production companies who said that they were getting pitches using my sound design as comps for the shows they wanted to produce. Like, they wanted to go into a more silly, funny place. And I thought that was so wild because it was just like, what my instinct had told me to do is, like, what I felt like doing.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

So this is all to say that I think that there's something to be said about putting in the years and really doing the work that you don't really want to do for a long time, and then coming out the other end and knowing what you want to make. That's really rewarding. And I was able to trust myself to make choices that I thought were going to be good and really feel good about those choices. Does that make sense?

[Elise Hu]

Absolutely.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I just rambled so much.

[Elise Hu]

No, no. That totally tracks. And I think it's a real luxury or a privilege to get to a place in your career where you can be selective and you can say, no, like, that's not in line with my soul, or that's not in line with my kind of creative leanings or instincts. And then also just learning to trust your instincts, it sounds like, is such an important takeaway.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah. Because my. My. My training in audio is fairly unconventional in that, you know, I never worked in public radio. I had one internship at my local public radio station where I digitized CDs.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

So.

[Elise Hu]

But you didn't have to, like, crash at it for Morning Edition. Like, so many people in audio have no right.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I did not have that kind of experience. I didn't go to school for this. Um, I taught myself how to produce audio on Audacity, which is, like, the shittiest. I mean, I don't want to. I don't want to talk shit about an app on Audacity, which is just like, the most basic free software that you could use. And then my way up was through like new podcasting. So I didn't learn from the public radio people directly, but I learned from people who learned from them. And so there was a lot of insecurity for a long time where I was like, yeah, I'm here, I have this job, but I don't really know how to produce audio. I don't really know what I'm doing. I still kind of feel like that sometimes.

[Elise Hu]

Girl.

[Dori Shafrier]

I'm wondering, I am wondering, like, do you have advice for people whether they are like young people or older people, like, who want to get into audio? You know, I know the industry is, has been going through a lot of changes lately and I don't even want to get into video podcasting. But, you know, I'm just, I'm like, I got into this to not be on camera, but too bad.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

But I'm wondering, you know, what, what would you advise people to do if they, if they are interested in getting into podcasting from the producer side?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I think the two biggest things are, one, listen to a lot of stuff and know what you like and know why you like it like that. That's really, really important. I think there's like a surprising number of people who want to get into podcasting who don't actually consume the medium at all, which is weird to me. Like, why would you want to do that? But then the second thing is like, I think you should just get started. I was talking to a recent grad today actually, and giving her advice about how to proceed. And I told her that there are so many more resources today for teaching you how to start a podcast than there were 10 years ago. It's infinitely easier to start a podcast. Like, everything is so streamlined. There are so many softwares that exist now that didn't exist before. And so I think that just putting yourself out there and like making a thing, even if it's bad, especially if it's bad, that's the fastest way to get to where you want to go. Because nobody's going to be like, hey, you, 23 Year Old with a Dream. How's about you pick up a mic? Like, nobody's going to say that, you know, you have to, you have to show them that you want to do this thing and that you can do this thing.

[Elise Hu]

Love it. And it's so in line with the ethos of the show and you. The podcast is called Try hard. You can listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Alex, where can folks find you?

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I am on Instagram at Alexlafs. I'm Also on Blue skylexlaps, but I don't really post that much. There's.

[Elise Hu]

I feel like I couldn't really. I wasn't hanging out on Blue Sky. I know I was told to and everything, and it just wasn't part of my. I still have yet to make it part of my diet. My Internet diet.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I'll go on there, you know, a couple times a week, but I don't think I follow enough people for it to be valuable. So it's just kind of the same stuff.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Over and over again.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. How I long for the days that TweetDeck existed, and I could just keep that in a tap.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

I was just thinking the other day about how when I. When in the. In the tweet deck days, I would have a tweet deck open of, like, four different columns going, and it was just on its own monitor, and then I was doing my work. I can't believe we lived like that.

[Dori Shafrier]

So.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. But, yeah, I felt better informed, though, too. Like, I kind of had a pulse on things that now I feel completely divorced from. Like, there's so many silos of information and conversation that I'm just not part of or I'm not even aware of.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Oh, totally.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. RIP Tweet deck.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah, it was real Twitter.

[Dori Shafrier]

Alex, thank you so much. This is so great to get to talk to you. And you and I were talking before we started recording about how we both worked at buzzfeed, but we never really worked together, so it's really nice to. To get to chat with you. Thank you.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Oh, thank you so much for having me. This is, like, very exciting for me to be on because I've. I've watched you guys from afar for many years.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yay. Alex is so cool. And I know we overlapped at buzzfeed, but I'm sad that we never got to work together. Maybe one day.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Because you were on different coasts. Right. So it was hard to.

[Dori Shafrier]

We were on different coasts, and I. I didn't work with the podcast team directly, even though I was, like, friends with a lot of them. So.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah. So we never really, like, overlapped. All right, Elise, how is the old crowdfunding going?

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yes, that was my intention last week, but we got a little behind. We got a little behind in getting the crowdfund widely shared. So I'll probably be crowdfunding and beginning that process this week, and we'll talk about it, I guess, on our next casual chat. So my intention this week, as we head into Labor Day weekend, is to stay chill. Stay chill. Because I have four days straight with my kids again just after they went back to school. They're home because we have lausd, which is where my kids go to school. They have Friday off for some reason. And so I have Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday four days straight of like lots of hours to have to plan or occupy with the children. And so I'm just trying to keep it chill. Keep it chill. So like maybe my intention is keep nervous system regulated. Wish me luck.

[Dori Shafrier]

I like that. Good luck. Good luck.

[Elise Hu]

What about you? Let's check in on yours.

[Dori Shafrier]

I said I was going to figure out a strength routine last week. I did not do that. It just ended up being a little bit of a crazy week and so I did not have a chance to do that. And do you want to re up it then? I might re up it because I can't work out till outside Wednesday. Yeah, no, I can't, I can't work out until Friday. You can't like sweat do anything even if you're inside? Yeah. Just because they don't want any like bacteria to enter the skin.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Or something.

[Dori Shafrier]

I don't know. But good aftercare.

[Elise Hu]

Good aftercare.

[Dori Shafrier]

Good aftercare.

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

But I can, I can pick that up on Friday and see how that goes. So maybe I'll, I'll re up that again.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's do it.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, listen everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our Project manager and our network partner is acast. Thanks everyone.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you soon.

[Dori Shafrier]

Bye.

[Elise Hu]

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