Episode 370: Happily Ever After with Brea Grant and Mallory O'Meara

Summary

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Forever35 Podcast: Episode 370 – Happily Ever After with Brea Grant and Mallory O’Meara

Release Date: September 22, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guests: Brea Grant & Mallory O’Meara (Co-hosts of Reading Glasses and Reading Smut)

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Overview

In this lively, book-centric episode, Doree and Elise welcome Brea Grant and Mallory O’Meara—best friends, self-proclaimed genre nerds, and podcast co-hosts—to explore the ever-growing popularity of romance, romantasy, and erotica. They dive into self-care routines (from goopy skincare to digital detoxes), the comforting formulas of romance novels, how romance empowers readers, and what it means to find joy (and sometimes stress) in reading, watching, and collecting. The hosts and guests swap recommendations, discuss adaptation controversies, and get charmingly personal about how their roots (Texas, Massachusetts) shape who they are.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Self-Care Practices (12:24–16:41)

• Brea Grant:
  • Loves baths + masks + a good book. “I do like the goopiest skin care you can find. Like so any, the wettest, sloppiest. This is all going on my face.” [13:00]
• Mallory O’Meara:
  • Enforces a strict “no scrolling before bed” rule. Leaves her phone out of reach to prevent the IMDb/Social spiral.
  • “It’s one of those annoying things that everyone says actually works. It’s kind of like yoga or drinking water. And it’s very annoying that it is effective, but it is very effective and has helped me sleep.” [14:35]
  • Recommends the Focus Friend app (by Hank Green) as a fun, low-key accountability tool for phone discipline.

2. The Rise of Erotica, Romantasy, and What Makes Romance Special (16:42–22:05)

• Current Trends:
  • Erotica and Romantasy are booming, especially post-2016 and post-2020, due to cultural stress and a craving for escapism.
  • Romance genres offer comfort, self-empowerment, and routine, particularly for women and LGBTQ readers.
• Themes Readers Love:
  • Focus on pleasure, both romantic and sexual, often with strong female leads, real-life issues (getting jobs, health insurance), and positive escapism.
  • Connection for moms and queer folks: stories help reclaim identity and body autonomy.
  • “A lot of what’s interesting that Bria and I really love is a lot of [romance novels’] side plots are them getting good jobs and having health insurance.” – Mallory [18:26]

3. Wild Worlds of Smut: The Appeal & Humor (19:36–21:52)

• Popular series like Ice Planet Barbarians and delightfully outrageous tropes (e.g., “door that turns into a man” romance books).
• Books are often “very self-aware about what women want to hear,” and offer both escapism and sly social commentary.
  • “He was like, that’s weird. They charge more for the pink tools at Home Depot than the regular tools. Like, why would they upcharge women? And you’re like, yes, doorman. That’s right.” – Bria [21:31]

4. Book Culture, Publishing, and Romance’s Evolution (22:05–24:13)

• Myths about the “death of reading” are overblown—formats and genres change, but love of books persists.
  • “People are never going to stop reading… People love books. There’s always going to be readers.” – Mallory [22:41]
• Behind-the-scenes of authordom: pressures, lack of control, and industry challenges remain substantial.

5. Romance & Romantasy for Beginners (24:13–26:12)

• Gateway recommendations:
  • A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Maas (“gateway horny fairy book”) – long but popular.
  • Emily Wilde’s Encyclopedia of Faeries for a shorter, less erotic but whimsical entry point.
  • Book Lovers by Emily Henry (for contemporary romance).

6. Romance Adaptations: Hits, Misses, and Bridgerton Fever (28:52–33:36)

• Favorite adaptations:
  • To All the Boys I’ve Loved Before—the film adaptation brought new readers to romance.
  • Bridgerton—converted new fans to Regency romance.
    • “It’s just like the sexiness of just like a woman taking off a glove. I’m like, how is this so sexy? It’s amazing.” – Bria [29:44]
  • Adaptations retain much of the original “smut,” but often structurally remix storylines to fit the show format.
  • Recurrent trope: All romance novels promise a Happily Ever After, which is deeply comforting for many.

7. On Reading Fatigue and Mixing It Up (32:22–33:17)

• Acknowledge romance’s formula: “That is both the draw and the frustration for people with romance—it is very formula.”
• Tip: Rotate genres/subgenres (contemporary, historical, fantasy, horror) to keep things fresh.

8. Adaptation Casting Debates & Book Boyfriends (33:17–35:10)

• Intense fan investment in casting romantic leads—miscasting can be a “huge bummer.”
  • “Something that’s very popular in the romance world is your book boyfriend… If your book boyfriend gets cast as an actor that you don’t think has got the juice, it’s a huge bummer.” – Mallory [34:43]
• Recent fandom split: The Summer I Turned Pretty vs. positive feedback for Red, White & Royal Blue adaptation.

9. Regional Roots: Texas vs. New England Personality (35:23–39:57)

• Bria: Classic Texas traits—loud, straight-talk, brash, loves pickles (and pickles in movie theaters).
• Mallory: “Very New England”—swearing, not into neighborly small talk, finds LA’s friendliness jarring.
  • “Moving to California felt like moving into a giant Trader Joe’s where, like, everybody wanted to talk to me and take an interest in my life.” – Mallory [39:32]

10. What They’re Reading and Watching Now (40:01–44:15)

• Mallory:
  • Mayra by Nikki Gonzalez (horror, mysterious retreat, no spoilers!).
  • Romance rec: Holding the Reins by Paisley Hope (Canadian author, American cowboys).
  • Watching: Re-watching Somebody Somewhere.
• Bria:
  • The Summer I Ate the Rich by Micah and Maritza Malita (Haitian zombie lore meets cooking and mystery).
  • Cozy mystery + food book rec: Vera Wong’s Advice for Murderers by Jesse Q. Sutanto.
  • Watching: The Hunting Wives series—delightfully wild, “mind blowing,” and a lot of (bad) wig talk.
• Food in Fiction: Shared enthusiasm for books and shows that tie in food and cooking.

11. Wig Gate: Industry Tidbit and Cheeky LA Advocacy (44:16–46:46)

• The infamous bad wig of The Hunting Wives—and the importance of shooting in LA where all the good wig-makers are.
  • “This terrible wig should be this beautiful mascot for keeping production in Los Angeles.” – Mallory [45:58]
• “We need more drag queens in North Carolina.” – Mallory & Bria [46:37]

12. Where to Find Guests & Their Podcasts (47:02)

• Reading Glasses and Reading Smut—both available wherever you get your podcasts.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If I find a bog, I’ll let everybody know. But my self-care right now is I’m not allowed to scroll before bed anymore.” – Mallory O’Meara [14:00]
• “They don’t all take a lot of energy… but yeah, it’s a kind of a way for women… to relax. Just so fascinating.” – Bria Grant on romance/romantasy’s draw [17:26]
• “Back in my day, we had way sexier love triangles.” – Mallory O’Meara [33:48]
• “You’re never going to kill print books. Bookstores are never going to die.” – Mallory O’Meara [22:41]
• “That’s why the way that I do it is I try to rotate between, like, contemporary romance, historical romance, dark romance, or horror. I try to keep the [genre] key.” – Mallory [32:22]
• “If your book boyfriend gets cast as an actor that you don’t think has got the juice, I mean, it really… It’s a huge bummer.” – Mallory [34:43]
• “Moving to California felt like moving into a giant Trader Joe’s.” – Mallory [39:32]
• “We need more drag queens in North Carolina is really what we’re saying.” – Mallory & Bria [46:41]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Self-Care Practices: 12:24–16:41
• The Pull of Romance & Romantasy: 16:42–22:05
• Wildest Romance Books: 19:36–21:52
• Reading Culture & Publishing: 22:05–24:13
• Beginner’s Romantasy/Romance Recs: 24:13–26:12
• Adaptations & Bridgerton: 28:52–33:17
• Formula Fatigue & Reading Tips: 32:22–33:17
• Book Boyfriend & Casting Controversies: 33:17–35:10
• Regional Personalities: 35:23–39:57
• Current Reads & Watches: 40:01–44:15
• Wig Discourse & Industry Tangent: 44:16–46:46
• Plugs for Reading Glasses & Reading Smut: 47:02

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Takeaways

• Romance genres—especially erotica and romantasy—aren’t just escapist but serve powerful, positive functions for readers who seek both pleasure and agency in their fiction.
• Despite endless hand-wringing, reading endures in all formats: there’s always a next generation of bibliophiles.
• The formulaic comfort of romance novels can be both a feature and a bug—mixing up subgenres keeps things fresh.
• Adapting beloved romances for TV/film is fraught (mainly, don’t mess up the casting of the “book boyfriend”).
• The personal touch: where you’re from shapes how and what you read, recommend, and relate.
• The Forever35 ethos (“the things we do to take care of ourselves”) fits perfectly with bookish, communal, and very funny conversations about what gets us through the day (be it serums, stories, or the world’s worst wig).

Learn more and listen:

• Reading Glasses
• Reading Smut

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Transcript

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[Dory Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

And today we have Bria Grant and Mallory o' Meara and they are the co hosts of Reading Glasses and Reading Smut, two podcasts and they are just delightful. We talk about books, we talk about adaptations, we talk about romance.

[Elise Hu]

You know what question I didn't, that we didn't ask them was how much they read, because it seems like they must. They have two reading related podcasts they had. They were armed with all sorts of recommendations. But how much are they reading? Like, how many books do they read in a year or a month? That I don't know. Great question, and we cannot tease the answer later, but we can tease a bunch of great content and recommendations and their explanations for why they think smut and romantasy are such popular genres right now.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, yes, yes. And I think I mentioned this briefly on an episode. I, I have to admit I don't remember where it was, but I think I had said that I had ordered a new one line a day journal because I had, you know, I did a one line a day journal for five years. I finished it and then I was like, you know what? I'd been feeling like I wanted to go back to like, re, like regular journaling. And so I bought just a, you know, regular journal notebook and I was journaling in that for a little while. But I did start to feel, which was the whole reason I did one line a day in the first place. I was like, oh, I feel the pressure of like having to fill up like a whole page. It's like, I think I'm gonna go back to the one line a day. So I did. I ordered one and I've been doing it for the last couple nights and I think it's good. I'm realizing that it's good for me to feel like, oh, there was more that I wanted to say than to feel like, oh, I don't know. What to say. Yes, I do really like the format of the one line a day journal. Like the way you can you end up being able to like look back on the same day from the previous years is like, so cool. And you know, I think I've talked about this before, but I started my other one like late 2019. So it's really like this whole chronicle of like Covid hitting and lockdown and like all of that stuff happening. And so it's, it's like so interesting to like, look back on it. So I'm, I'm happy to have it back in my life.

[Elise Hu]

I imagine it's easier to look back too on those years when you only wrote one line a day. Because I have kept journals my whole life, but I almost rarely, I very rarely go back because it's like, not organized in a way. And some of them are long, some of them are short. Like, the entries are uneven, you know, and sometimes I didn't write for a week or two weeks or so. One line a day seems like a really great not only routine to get into, but also the format to look back on is digestible. I will do a shout out for the digital journal that I use. I use a digital journaling app called Day One and I love Day One in that like, if I have photos from the day or like little video clips, then I will add that to the post and it location tags you wherever you posted for the day. So like wherever I was in the world is noted on that day. And then they give you reminders kind of in the same way that photo apps do. It's like on this day in 2018 or on this day in 2022. And that's nice. I just don't.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's cool.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I, I, it's not laid out in a way that like a handwritten journal is where you just open up the book and you just read. And I think that you can glean a lot out of what you're doing. So anyway, good. Glad you're back into it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thanks. What's going on with you?

[Elise Hu]

Well, I have an update on something I brought up on the mini last Wednesday, which is what am I going to do with Rob's jeans? And now I have an answer because I had Rob model the jeans that Crossroads, the resale shop, rejected for not being trendy enough. And I took a few photos of each pair of jeans and sent them to Sammy, our producer, Sam Hunio. And they will take them. They said, I'll just take them all. I'm so glad. So now these jeans are going to find a home and with somebody who will appreciate them.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

And I will mention that Sammy said at first they go, I don't know, I don't know if these are on trend enough. And then they go, just kidding. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? They aren't that skinny. It's not like they're like skinny jeans, you know, it's just whatever, for whatever reason, they're not the style right now. I think. I think the whole era of JNCOs are back. You know, like the super baggy.

[Dory Shafrier]

Totally. One of my friends texted me yesterday and was like, so are we supposed to like keep our skinny jeans? Like, are we supposed to save them for when they come back?

[Mallory O'Meara]

Yes, they're going to come back. They're going to come back.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was like, oh man, I don't know.

[Elise Hu]

I don't know if I told you about that thread that I read that was like, is life just watching jeans go in and out of style every 10 or 20 years over and over again? And yeah, I guess life is that life.

[Dory Shafrier]

Life is that. Well, should we introduce our guests?

[Mallory O'Meara]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, I'm happy to. Bria Grant and Mallory o' Meara are the co hosts of Reading Glasses and their separate podcast, Reading Smut. Mallory is an award winning and best selling author and historian. She lives with her two cats and in LA where she is at work on her next nonfiction book. Her latest book, Daughter of Daring the Trick Riding, Train Leaping, Road Racing, Life of Helen Gibson, Hollywood's first Stuntwoman was released in February of this year to critical acclaim. She's written many other award winning books like the lady from the Black Lagoon, Hollywood Monsters and the Lost Legacy of Millicent Patrick and Girly Drinks A World History of Women and Alcohol and Girls Make Movies every week. For the last eight years, Mallory has been hosting the literary podcast Reading Glasses alongside filmmaker and writer Bria Grant and in February of this year their sister show launched. It's called Reading Smut and it's a bi weekly show that explores the world of erotica and romance and Dory. You can do Bria.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bria is an E reader who moonlights as an actress and then daylights as a podcast host. She is best known for playing Daphne Milbrook in the NBC television series Heroes and she is from Texas which she and Elise discuss in our episode. And in addition to all of her acting credits, she has also created a comic book miniseries called We Will Bury youy and she also writes the Suicide Girls comic miniseries based on the pinup website of the same name. They are both like super interesting gals and before we get to our chat with them, just a reminder that you can Visit our website forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. Follow us on Instagram @forever35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com Forever35 you can get our casual chats, our pop culture recs ad free episodes are there as well so check that out. Our favorite products are at shopmy us forever35 our newsletter is forever35 podcast.com newsletter and please call or text us. We love getting your calls and your texts. Those are what power our mini episodes. And you can do that at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and we will be right back with Mallory and Bria.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

Mallory and Bria, welcome to Forever 35. We are so excited to have you here.

[Bria Grant]

Thank you for having us.

[Dory Shafrier]

So, as you may know, we like to start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So I'd love to hear about one that each of you has if you, if you would like to share.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Bria, go for it. I know you're going to talk about some ridiculous skincare thing.

[Bria Grant]

I do, I do love a skincare routine. I do love looking at skin care reviews. I, I, I, my, it's pretty basic. I'm sorry to be so basic, but it is like getting in the bath with a mask on with a good book. Like that is my self care routine and I do like the goopiest skin care you can find. Like so any, the wettest, sloppiest. This is all going on my face. I, I would put Vaseline in my face every night if I thought it wouldn't make me break out.

[Dory Shafrier]

I mean, if I may, you are glowing.

[Bria Grant]

Thank you so much.

[Dory Shafrier]

You do have a glow so or whatever. Well, I prefer glow, but whatever you're doing is working.

[Bria Grant]

So thank you so much.

[Mallory O'Meara]

There's been a lot of bog books coming out this year. I feel like boggy things are very in vogue right now. So dampness, swampiness, really, really big right now.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was like, does bog mean something that I don't like? Is bog a euphemism for something? But no, you meant actual like an Actual bog.

[Bria Grant]

Yeah, like in the genre, in the genre book space bogs are really big right now. Like swamps.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Yeah. It's because we all want to sink into one. I wish sinking into a bog was my self care right now, but unfortunately I do live in Los Angeles. Whereas not a lot of bogs around here.

[Dory Shafrier]

There's not a lot of bog bugs.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Pretty dry. It's not as fun to sink into hot sand. So I, if I find a bug, I'll let, I'll let everybody know. But my, my self care right now is I'm not allowed to scroll before bed anymore. I have always had trouble sleeping. I'm like a sort of a lifelong insomniac and so I am like, you know when you have a little kid and you're like, okay, you're not allowed on your iPad, but you can play with your toys as much as you want. I am not allowed to scroll, but I can read as much as I want before bed. Not looking at your phone is one of those annoying that everyone says that actually works. It's kind of like yoga or drinking water. And it's very annoying that it is effective, but it is very effective and has helped me sleep and help me not feel like walking into the sea. And yeah, I, it. It's great. It's great to go to sleep thinking about not your own life.

[Dory Shafrier]

Don't you hate when those things that are like supposed to be good for you, like not scrolling on your phone, like turn out to actually be good for you?

[Mallory O'Meara]

Eating vegetables, stretching. It's real.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's really so annoying. I know.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Stretching, taking care of yourself is very frustrating. It's. It's annoying that the most annoying things are the most effective.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's so true.

[Elise Hu]

What do you do to like police your device limitations? Like are you sleeping in a different room from your device or are you just very disciplined?

[Mallory O'Meara]

I put it where I can't reach it because I am that lazy at night. Where for me a big part of phone phone like my phone uses is it's just there. And if I. It's always. It never starts that I want to scroll. It's always like, what's the name of that actor that was in that movie 20 years ago? And then before I know it, I've gone from IMDb to some other thing.

[Dory Shafrier]

Because it's just there.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Truly for me, it is simple as leaving it on my bureau and having to get out of bed. I'm like, oh, do I really care enough about this actor's name to get out of bed? And 99% of the time, the answer is no.

[Bria Grant]

Do you know about Focus Friend?

[Elise Hu]

No.

[Bria Grant]

Focus Friend is for your phone and you open it up and there's like a little guy in there. And the moment you focus, he's a bean. Sorry, He's a bean. And that's why I called it bean. And it in the moment you tell him you have to focus, it's like for a certain amount of time, he starts knitting and if you pick up your phone, he stops knitting and he's like, I was in the middle of knitting a sock. And so it's, it actually is weirdly motivating. Hank Green, the writer, it's his app and I think it's a pretty genius app.

[Elise Hu]

I've been using it.

[Mallory O'Meara]

It's great.

[Elise Hu]

I like this. Okay, well, you brought. You both are big readers and you're on because not only do you host reading glasses, but you also have a spin off called Reading Smut. And I really want to get into this because erotica and Romantasy are basically the only growing sectors in the publishing industry.

[Mallory O'Meara]

From what we understand, they really keep establishing afloat. Yeah, I think because we're all so stressed, you can truly, like, look at the rye. Like from 2016 and especially 2020 on, these genres have really exploded. They're, they're. I. Bria, let me know if you agree. But I think they are the most self Carey genres there are, especially for female readers.

[Bria Grant]

I mean, I agree. I, I will say, like, to give it a wider POV of the show in general. That was our question too. We were like, why? Because we just found that the smartest women we know were reading only these books. They were reading other books too. I shouldn't say only, but like, they were, but we just were like, why are the CEOs we know and the heads of Warner Brothers and the biggest directors, and why are they reading just like 10 Romantasy books, you know, in a series at the same time? And so we sort of started talking about it a lot on the show. And yeah, it seems, it seems like it is like, it is a way to sort of reclaim a lot of things. But your time, your energy, they don't, A lot of them don't take a lot of energy. Some of them do. Like, they definitely, like, they, they run the gamut as far as, you know, plots go. But yeah, it's a, it's a kind of. Does seem like it's a way for women and not specifically women, but it is a lot of female readers. It's A way for them to sort of relax. Just so fascinating.

[Mallory O'Meara]

A lot of them are female main characters and the point of the book is to watch these female main characters like experience pleasure. And a lot of what's interesting that Bri and I really love is a lot of them like a lot of the side plots are like them getting good jobs and having health insurance.

[Elise Hu]

What a fantasy.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Yes. And it seems silly, but that really is very escapist. We also see some. Something that we getting a lot of emails from moms, moms who have kind of lost their identity in motherhood and you know, they have lost their bodies to motherhood.

[Elise Hu]

There's just people on them all the time.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Their own anymore. They have, yeah. Of it and they're like. So they. A lot of people write in and tell us that reading these books that are, you know, very sexual and all about pleasure for the main character has helped them reconnect with themselves. And it's really, really beautiful. We also see it with a lot of queer readers are able to explore their bodies and their sexuality through these books. So it doesn't really matter where you are on the identity spectrum. These books have a way to help you connect with yourself and, and feel good.

[Dory Shafrier]

My co host for this show before Elise, Kate Spencer, writes romance. She writes contemporary romance, but she reads a lot of romantasy and she would always bring up one of her favorite series, which is the Ice Planet Barbarian series. And I mean it sounded wild.

[Mallory O'Meara]

They're very honest. What's funny is that amongst like the grand map of all the things we've read so far, it's actually on the tamer side of things. The first episode we ever did was about a. A wear door where a woman falls in love with a door and turns into a man. Like a door.

[Elise Hu]

A door that you open and close.

[Bria Grant]

He turns into a man though. He turns into a man. So eventually.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, okay.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Bill turns back into a door sometimes. But we actually just read a Ruby Dixon book, her new. Her fantasy series because Ice Planet Barbarians is her sci fi series. But she does have her own Romantasy series. And yeah, a few months ago we did Bull Moon Rising about a minotaur romance. And I mean a lot of people, she got really famous with Ice Planet Barbarians because these books are fewer than 200 pages. They get really right to the point. And again they're because of this, they're good for people who are stressed out and tired and they like, they just want to get right into something. So a lot of these books are. Are like that you open it up and bam, there's some hot person there who wants to do stuff with you immediately.

[Bria Grant]

He works on a farm. He has a good job. Like, he. It's like.

[Mallory O'Meara]

It really is like, she was a person. Yes.

[Bria Grant]

Oh, they're. They're really. They're really also, like, extreme. Not all of them, but a lot of them are very self aware about what women want to hear. Like, I hate to, like, bring up the doorway, but the door guy was like, really aware of, like, you know, how hard it is to be a woman.

[Mallory O'Meara]

And like, he's kind of like, feminist weird or.

[Bria Grant]

Yeah, he was like, that's weird. They charge more for the pink tools at Home Depot than the regular tools. Like, why would they upcharge women? And you're like, yes, doorman. That's right. I can't remember his name. It wasn't door.

[Mallory O'Meara]

I can't remember, but I remember it wasn't. It's not something as. It was not something door related, which we were a little disappointed about.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

What about just reading culture and publishing? Over the time that you've been doing your podcasts, what have you learned since you started podcasting with reading glasses? What was that, like, eight years ago?

[Mallory O'Meara]

Yeah. Oh, man. This is the moment where we both break out a cigarette and we're like, oh, let us tell you all the things back in the day. I think if you have to distill down everything that we learned for the past eight years is that people are never going to stop reading. I feel like every few years there's some sort of alarmist think piece about how kids are. Kids want to be on iPads now and they're not going to read anymore. And no ebooks are here. No one wants to read. No one's going to. Ebooks are going to kill print books. Audiobooks are going to kill everything. It's just never going to happen. People love books. There's always going to be readers. People are always going to want to read in whatever format there are. And instead of being panicked about whatever new format, it's just going to be an additional thing. No one's ever going to kill print books. You know, reading in bookstores skyrocketed, actually, in the pandemic. We were all kind of really shocked. Bookstores are never going to die. People are always going to want to read. And it's been. I mean, eight years is not a hugely long time, but I feel like it's a pretty good chunk of time to say that we've. We've seen some We've been through some shit and seen a lot of it in, in the world of readers especially, and it's never going away.

[Bria Grant]

I learned, I've learned so much about how hard it is to be an author. And that's never been my bread and butter, has never been my main thing. But just how hard even these past eight years have been, how the industry changes, how it expects so much of you, how you have such little control once your book comes out. Like, you know, you may not even be able to approve the COVID of your book. Like, things that we sort of like assume authors are doing that, that it's made me a real champion for authors. I think that's the one that's something that I've taken away from it. And the other thing is the rise in romance. Like, that was why we started the other show because we just, we both are, we're, we're genre girlies. We both love like sci fi and horror books. But then we just kept seeing our listeners were like, we're reading romance. And so we're like, okay, we're gonna read some romance. And then we got into it. And I will say, Mallory's a full blown romance and smut reader at this point, and I'm always dipping my toe into it. And I just felt like we needed to educate ourselves even more about it because that's what our listeners were starting to read even though maybe eight years ago they were not.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Can I ask for any of our listeners who might not be romance or Romantasy readers? Is there like a Romance Romantasy 101, you know, selection of books or authors that you like to recommend as like, gateways into romance?

[Mallory O'Meara]

I mean, the big one that a lot of people start with is A Court of Thorn and Roses. That is a lot of people's gateway Romantasy. Gateway horny fairy book. It's just, it's so. It's popular and it's really popular for a reason. We actually read it for our other show before we started reading smut. And it's one of those things where we're like, yeah, we get it, you know, it, it right off the bat. You just have a. It has all of the hallmarks. You know, it is a. It's kind of a Beauty and the Beast retelling. It's got a strong female character and this gigantic. They're all gigantic men for some reason, like, almost comically gigantic. They're like, you know, six, seven. And there's this gigantic man that is crazy for her. Even though she's just a boring human and that, like, so we see a lot of these same tropes over and over again. So if you want to know if. If this genre is for you, you kind of can't go wrong with starting on Sarah J. Maas.

[Bria Grant]

It is long, though. The first one maybe is only like 350, 400 pages, but then the rest of them get quite long. It's. And I think that was the other thing that's so interesting is like these. Is that people are reading so many pages of these books. They're not like a lot of them. Like the Roman in particular. The books are just. They're thick books. Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to think if there's like a shorter one that people could just dip their toe into. But that does seem like the one that's sort of the starting basis for.

[Mallory O'Meara]

A lot of people. For. I mean, for Romantasy, the most of them are pretty long. I guess they could. Someone could do Emily Wilde's Encyclopedia Fairies for.

[Bria Grant]

Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Like, if you want to do Romantasy, it's not very. It's not very erotic, though.

[Mallory O'Meara]

It's more like, oh, it's more romantic. But it is shorter.

[Dory Shafrier]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Mallory O'Meara]

Well, the first one I think we ever did was the Jenny Han book to all the boys I've loved before we did. Yeah, Reading glasses Book club. And that was, that was really the. I think it was our first ever event we did with something romancy and we were like, oh, people are are really into but I know people are very excited about the new Emily Henry. People we met on vacation that's coming out. I know almost every big Romantasy is sort of in development right now. Fourth wing Sarah J. Maas Books. There's a. It's interesting to see. I mean we just did an episode on Bridgerton and Bria are like you really fell in love with it.

[Bria Grant]

I did not. So I was like not familiar. I mean I knew what Bridgerton was but we had a guest on who was who loves Bridgerton, loves the books, loves the show and she like curated three episodes for us to watch. And now I'm, I love Bridgerton. Like I couldn't believe I'm not a Regency romance person. I always say like if it has fluffy dresses, like I'm not interested. But I now I'm like bring it. Bring the Regency romance. I loved the like I Don't know if y' all have ever seen Bridgerton, but it's just like the. This sexiness of just like a woman taking off a glove. I'm like, how is this. How is this so sexy? It's amazing. The show is incredible. I didn't read the books at all, but I'm. I'm loving that adaptation.

[Elise Hu]

That's what I was going to ask you. Like, how closely does it hue to the book? Because Shonda Rhimes does kind of sexy, horny shows really well, and this is part of the Shonda Rhimes universe. Right. So I was curious if the book, like, the source material started out so, so compelling, you know, and they were just working from that.

[Mallory O'Meara]

It's funny because Bri is sticking with the show. I actually am more interested in reading the books, but I think people are always surprised at how smutty these books are, especially the regional agency ones. They can get pretty, pretty smutty. So that actually wasn't, I think, changed too much in the adaptation. I think where the changes were is, like, because the book, the series is all about this one family and all of the. All of the siblings of this one semi royal family. So I think they have condensed some things given because each. The general way that romance books work is you're following a main. Like, one relationship, a main character, and whatever the hero or heroine that person is with. So you're kind of only getting one arc and then like, this stuff happening in the background, and the next book will be that other couple that was sort of mentioned offhandedly in the first book. So I think the big difference is in the show, you're getting multiple arcs happening at the same time.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, okay. Yeah. So that's just a structural thing more than anything.

[Bria Grant]

The other thing I should say about romance books is that just generally the other thing that I think is attractive about them is that they all have a happily ever after. Like, that actually is a part of writing a romance book, and there is not just to bring it back to the comfort thing. Knowing that's coming is really nice. Like, knowing you're going to end up with a positive ending. That. I think that is the other draw. I'm just still thinking about why people are interested. We're always trying to figure this question out.

[Dory Shafrier]

I don't read a ton of romance, but I have read all of the Bridgerton books, and they. They are quite sexy. I did. I read. I do this thing sometimes where, like, I binge read books and I did start to notice, like. Like, the same sex scenes.

[Elise Hu]

As the other guy.

[Dory Shafrier]

Everyone had the same moves. And I was just sort of like, okay, maybe I shouldn't have read these all in the space of like, two.

[Bria Grant]

Yeah.

[Mallory O'Meara]

That's why the way that I do it is I try to rotate between, like, contemporary romance, historical romance, dark romance, or horror. I try to keep the key because, I mean, that is both the draw and the frustration for people with romance is that it is very formula and it's. You can look at it and some people criticize in that way, but it also makes a lot of other readers happy because like Bria said, you know, you're going to get a happily ever after. You know, you're going to get sex or romance scenes at certain intervals. You like, you know how tropes are going to go. And a lot of people, when you're really, really stressed out or you don't have a lot of brain power to focus on something, it. It kind of helps you out because you, you know, you kind of know if you, once you read one, you kind of get like the lay of the land a little bit. So that to help combat that, I. I try to break it up at least by genre or sub genre.

[Elise Hu]

While we're on this topic of adaptation, I was really excited to read Summer. I turned Pretty in that series and I wanted to read it with my daughter, who is 13, and she's really into the series. But then they made the adaptation and like, I don't like who they cast as Jeremiah and Conrad.

[Mallory O'Meara]

People have big feelings about those characters.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I don't feel like the guys in that triangle are nearly as hot as the people in the love triangles of my youth.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Back in my day, we had way sexier love triangles.

[Elise Hu]

Exactly. And so now I don't know what to do. Is it worth just reading it and reimagining, like, recap? Casting?

[Bria Grant]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Elise Hu]

I don't. I don't want to watch the series. I don't. I don't want to be part of that zeitgeist in that conversation. I know it's very big, but I just like, I feel that cast is so wrong. With the exception of what's your name?

[Mallory O'Meara]

Books and recast them in your brain. What are this? This. The book police can't get you in your own mind. You can. You can cast whoever you want.

[Bria Grant]

Who would you have cast? Do you have any ideas?

[Elise Hu]

I don't need to read it. I need to read it. I just don't like those. I feel like those guys. Okay, are not it.

[Mallory O'Meara]

They're not it.

[Bria Grant]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Not it.

[Mallory O'Meara]

There you go. But I mean, that's, I mean, it's a really big thing and buzzy thing in the romance world when people, like, cast for adaptations because people, if they have read the books, they form these really, really strong.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Relationship. Like, you know, not relationships, but really strong attachment to these, these characters. Something that's very popular in the romance world is your book boyfriend, you know, your favorite protagonist. And if someone, if you, if your book boyfriend gets cast as an actor that you don't think has got the juice, I mean, it really, It's a huge bummer. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I did think the red, white, and royal blue casting was good because I liked that book and I thought that the guys in it were excellent.

[Bria Grant]

I also thought it was excellent casting. I, I, I, I didn't love the movie, I will say, but, but I thought the casting was great and I watched the whole thing because the casting was so good.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, so let's turn to you all for a bit because we've been talking a lot about books and culture and Bria, you and I are both from Texas, and so I wanted to ask you, what do you think is the most Texan thing about you?

[Bria Grant]

Oh, you know, it's so funny. My husband's also from Texas, and he is always, he's always like, he talks about how he thinks. One of the reasons he likes me so much is that I'm from Texas and it reminds him of home. But I don't know if there's like a thing that. I don't know if there's like a specific. You love pickles? I do love pickles. Is that a Texas thing? Is that a. I don't know.

[Mallory O'Meara]

As someone who's not from Texas, like, sometimes breeze snacking habits seem like somebody that's from the south to me. Like, oh, didn't. You didn't, didn't movie theater that you had when you were a kid, like, gave out pickles or something and give.

[Bria Grant]

You had to buy them. But yes, they had a giant jar. They don't, like, hand you a pickle when you walk in the door. In some ways, I think my personality, I think I'm pretty loud and not scared to just say what I think when it's coming up. And I think that's a very Texas and a very female Texas thing. Actually, it's something I really like about women from Texas, where I think we're a little brash in a way that I appreciate and, and eat and I, I actually, for Me, it's more comfortable if we're all just saying what we're thinking instead of everyone dancing around it. But I don't realize that's a strange trait until I'm around someone from, like, the Midwest.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yes, the Midwest. The whole Minnesota nice thing.

[Bria Grant]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Or even the Deep south, the bless.

[Bria Grant]

Your heart thing, Right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I don't bless your heart very often. I'm much more of a. Like. Like, what is going on here? Tell me exactly what. I'm very much like a. Like, I will get to the bottom of it very quickly and say kind of what I. What I think.

[Elise Hu]

Absolutely. And then, Mallory, what about you? Where are you from?

[Mallory O'Meara]

I'm from Massachusetts, just like Dory. Oh, no way.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, I'm from Brookline, right outside Boston.

[Mallory O'Meara]

I grew up in Haverhill.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my gosh.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I am very New England. I am very, very New Englandy. I think anybody. Anyone who knows me knows I am very New England. Two things that I think stick out. I swear a lot, and I never thought about it until I moved to California. We get a lot of hate mail on our show about people that are really angry that I swear so much. And then I go. Every time I go back to New England, I'm like, oh, no. This is just how everybody I know talks. And it's the same thing with the friend. Like, I'm not very friendly. I don't even know half of my neighbors names. Like, it's very weird. When I moved to California, I really thought that there was, like, something wrong with me. And. And then I was talking to my therapist and I was like, I just. I don't really want to talk to my neighbors. Like, I don't. I. I feel really nuts in my. I will never forget this. My therapist was like, now I think you're just from New England. And the next time I went back to New England, I'll never forget, I got out, I landed at Logan. I went to the car rental booth and I walked up and I was like, hey, how are you? No response. They're just like, here's your car. And I walked away. And I was like, I'm not crazy. This is just how I am. This is just where I'm from. People act differently in New England. They're, they're, they will. They're very kind, but they're not nice and they're not interested in, like, small talk and being neighborly. Like, maybe people in the south or in the Midwest are. And that's definitely something I. I carry with me to LA and makes me feel like an outsider all the time.

[Dory Shafrier]

I so relate to that. When I first moved to la, I was like, wow, everyone's really friendly. Like, really friendly. Like, the baristas at the coffee shop seem. And I know they're probably all actors and, like, I don't know if they genuinely care about me, but they. They seem genuinely interested in how I was doing that day in a way that felt very unfamiliar as someone who, like, grew up in Boston and moved here from New York.

[Mallory O'Meara]

So, like, yeah, baristas are not going to ask you how your day is. It's like, no, it felt moving to California felt like moving into a giant Trader Joe's where, like, everybody wanted to talk to me and take an interest in my life. And it was very jarring. Ugh.

[Elise Hu]

That's what I love about it.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Me too. We're like, oh, no, don't talk to us.

[Bria Grant]

I love knowing everyone's business. I want to talk to everyone.

[Mallory O'Meara]

I'm.

[Bria Grant]

Yeah. Very friendly.

[Elise Hu]

Same, same. Okay, before we let y' all go, tell me a. What are you reading? And recommend that we read? And then what are you watching? And wanna. What do you wanna hype that you're watching?

[Mallory O'Meara]

Okay, so right now I am reading Mayra by Nikki Gonzalez. I just started. As you can see, I'm 8% of the way through. It is a new horror book. And I don't. I am. I'm the opposite of Bria. I don't want any spoilers to the point where I don't even know what books are about. When I go into them, I just know, like, vaguely. There. There's like. All I know is this is a horror book and it's one of those horror books where it's. I. The main character gets contacted from best friend by her child, best friend that she hasn't spoken to in a really, really long time. And her. She wants to. Out of nowhere, this person she hasn't been close with in years wants to go on a retreat with her, but she's very lonely and something's weird about the friend. So I'm really enjoying it. And to recommend something that you should read if you're looking for something to get into romance. I mean, I. I am merely 100 recommendations stacked in a trench coat. But what do you think for a good start? Romance? Emily Henry. Yes.

[Bria Grant]

Yeah. I mean, that's always like a. I mean, yeah. Book lovers is like. I think the one that really made me go like, oh, I like romance. Yeah. I think that that would be my first choice.

[Mallory O'Meara]

I will say the romance that I loved the most recently was a book called holding the Reins by Paisley Hope, which I don't think is her real name. That definitely sounds like a, this is a, it's a Canadian writer who writes about American cowboys, which is very interesting to see like the American south be romantic by a Canadian. I'm like, but you Healthcare, why are you, why are you wanting to be here? But it was amazing. Holding the Reins. I really, really loved it. And I am actually re watching somebody somewhere right now.

[Bria Grant]

Oh, love that I contain multitudes. Because I'm looking what I'm reading. I'm so, I'm reading a book called the Summer I Ate the Rich by Micah and Maritza Malita, I believe is how you say their names. And it's, it is, it's very strange kind of horror thriller, mystery. Ish is told it's about a Haitian American girl who has. This is probably not for your listeners, but I will, I will explain it anyway. But it's like it's, she's, she is a quote unquote, sort of zombie, but in the way that Haitian culture believes in zombies, which is very different than the way we've like Americanized it.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Bria Grant]

And that she's just attracted to like dead things sort of. And then she witnesses a hit and run and gets involved in this like rich person's like scheming essentially. And also there's cooking. There's a lot of cooking in it, which I'm enjoying. It's a very, it is a real cross genre book. It's very like, I, I, I'm still like, I'm just, I just started it. But it's very surprising if you love food. I have some food book recommendations. Okay. Okay. Definitely recommend.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Bria Grant]

There is this book called. Well, my favorite series that involves tea, not food is Jesse Q. Sutanto is Vera Wong's Advice for Murderers is the first one.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, I'm familiar with.

[Mallory O'Meara]

I love.

[Bria Grant]

Oh my gosh, it's so cute.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I love that book.

[Bria Grant]

Yeah. And it had a lot of like, it had a lot of food in it and cooking and tea, which I, I love when there's like a side of the that watching wise. I, I, this is why I said I contain multitudes. Are y' all watching the Hunting Wives?

[Elise Hu]

Oh, I, I binged it in like two obsessed.

[Dory Shafrier]

It was so.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Well, because I'm from Texas.

[Bria Grant]

Yes. So people started texting me. People were texting me and they're like, have you watched the show yet? And I'm like, what? No. But weirdly, we know May Cobb, the writer, and I knew about the book, and she's so lovely, and she's from right near where I'm from from. So that show, I haven't finished it yet, but I started. It is. It is mind blowing, that show. And I love that it's on television. That's. I love that we're making wild, wild stuff like that.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. They. They go there. They go there. And it's the worst wig of all wigs.

[Bria Grant]

Someone we need. I have been texting my friends about the wigs. I. There was apparently some lore about the wigs where, like, they had wigs, but then they got there and they weren't right, so they replaced them all at the last minute. Is that what it is?

[Elise Hu]

So Malin Ackerman gave an interview. This is a bit of an aside before we say goodbye, but Malin Akerman, who wears this horrible wig on her head. I mean, it looks like an animal died. And then they made a wig anyway, so Malinac. I don't know if it's supposed to look realistic even, but they think it does. I don't know. Anyway, so she gave an interview about the wig because it's been controversial, how bad it is, and she said that because they were doing production in North Carolina in order to get the tax incentives, and they didn't shoot it in Texas, where it's set. It's supposed to be set in East Texas, but North Carolina. Right. Oh, okay. And then North Carolina can kind of double as that because of the piney woods and everything and lakes, because they shot it there. They didn't have a bunch of, like, expert wig makers and production houses that would have access to great wigs and great, you know, artisans who could craft wigs. So this is just all an argument for keeping productions in Los Angeles.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Hey, there you go.

[Elise Hu]

Let me just bring that back around.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Everything needs to be made here. We're all the experts in these various fields, both above the line and below the line, which is a dumb way of dividing talent anyway. But, like, that's where all the wig makers. This is where all the wig makers are and where all of the, you know, know, grips and lighting techs and costume designers are.

[Mallory O'Meara]

This is a beautiful. Someone should save this terrible wig and this beautiful wig or this terrible wig should be this beautiful mascot for keeping production in Los Angeles. Sean Astin just got elected as head of sag. They should make him wear the wig during his speech.

[Elise Hu]

No offense to North Carolina or anything. It's just that there's more talent concentrated in the places where film and television were made.

[Bria Grant]

Well, we've specialized it in it for years, right? So we have stores that sell really high end wigs. That's like, we have that, like, you just go and buy that here. Whereas, like, why would a town in North Carolina just have a high end wig store?

[Mallory O'Meara]

You know, we need more drag queens in North Carolina is really what we're saying.

[Bria Grant]

That's another answer.

[Elise Hu]

That is another moral of this story.

[Dory Shafrier]

That should be the takeaway.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Improve your state. So I think we need to move. We need more, more drag queens in North Carolina. None of this, none of these bad things would be happening.

[Elise Hu]

Bria and Mallory, where can folks find you and your shows?

[Bria Grant]

Go find, Find our shows. We Reading Glasses and Reading Smut, two different shows, both have the word reading in them. You can listen to them on any of your podcasters for free. So go check those out. Yay.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you so much for joining us.

[Mallory O'Meara]

Thanks for having us.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you to Mallory and Bria. And we should mention that if you want more Mallory and Bria, all of our guests do a special extra episode, kind of an extra mini questionnaire that shows up every Tuesday on our Patreon. So if you want to join us there and hear more from our guests about their favorite candles and what's in their bag and their podcast recs and their book recs, you can. Or additional book recs, I should say, for these guests, you can. And join our [e-mail] Forever35. All right, door. Time to get into the intention zone.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay. Last week I was gonna do some manageable job seeking. I have been doing some. I have been doing some and yeah, we'll see. I did get, I got a freelance writing assignment. Nothing like too insane, but like, I do, I feel like I, I celebrate all of my, like, little wins. So that felt like a little win. Um, yeah. And then this week I'm going to take a page out of your book and I'm going to get back on the strength training train. I, I did a 10 minute peloton workout yesterday, but it was the first strength workout I've done in like, quite some time. But I really feel like I need to, like, get back into it. So again, setting manageable goals. I was proud of myself for the 10 minutes. I was like, okay, not going to overdo it. Just going do this and see what happens.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I did a little strength, as was my intention. I'M going to try and keep it up, but that is not my new intention. My new intention is to deal with the clothes that I want to give away and or sell because I've started this project last weekend and now with Rob's clothes. Thank you Sam Huo. But I have more that I need to deal with so I'm going to work on on upcycling. That will be cool.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that so much. Putting that all right. Well listeners, thank you so much for being with us. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doris Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our Project Manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks everyone.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you soon.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bye.

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