Episode 371: The Dark Side of Beauty with Arabelle Sicardi

Summary

Forever35 Podcast: Episode 371

Title: The Dark Side of Beauty with Arabelle Sicardi
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Arabelle Sicardi (author, beauty writer)
Date: September 29, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the complex and often troubling aspects of the beauty industry with writer Arabelle Sicardi, whose new book House of Beauty explores beauty’s intersections with politics, labor, and care. The conversation weaves together history, personal anecdotes, and a candid discussion about the paradoxes of loving beauty amid its problematic realities. Listeners are encouraged to question their own role as consumers while being offered a nuanced, community-driven vision for the future of self care and beauty.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Self Care, Habits, and Organization (02:01–11:02)

• Doree and Elise catch up on daily life:
  • Elise talks about her daughter turning 13, celebrating with family hot pot and a special gift haul curated by celebrity makeup artist Rachel Goodwin (03:02).
  • Doree reflects on a school talk about executive function, sharing actionable habits for kids and families, like using a checklist in luggage tags for backpack organization (05:55).
• Quote:

  “One little thing that she suggested that I’m definitely gonna do...have a little checklist for what goes in your kid’s backpacks and have it in a luggage tag. I am also going to do this with my tennis bag.” — Doree (05:55)

• Both hosts discuss their own struggles and strategies with staying organized and supporting their kids’ routines (07:11–08:47).

Introducing Arabelle Sicardi (10:05–11:02)

• Background:
  • Arabelle is described as a “beauty world builder” with bylines at major publications and founder of creative collectives. They run a scent-focused creative collective and a nonprofit arts foundation.

---

Interview with Arabelle Sicardi

Self Care Practices (12:28–14:15)

• Arabelle shares that “lifting weights,” Pilates, and swimming are essential for their mental health and sanity.
• Describes the contrasting gym experiences between New York (quirky, octogenarians) and LA (scene-y, influencer-filled).

Marriage and Personal Insights (14:40–17:20)

• Arabelle discusses their recent wedding, which was small, non-traditional, and heavily influenced by finding the perfect vintage Alexander McQueen dress on consignment in 2020.
• Quote:

  “Wedding planning is a heterocentric nightmare. I’ve learned a lot about family dynamics and how valuable it is to delegate as much as possible to professionals.” — Arabelle (14:44)

• Emphasizes the value of keeping things personal, authentic, and non-performative.

Nails as Art and Community (17:15–18:36)

• Manicure inspired by their book cover; done by their go-to nail tech, Kisang, who features in the book.
• Manicures described as rituals of care and community.

---

The House of Beauty: Book Deep-Dive

The Dark Side of the Beauty Industry (20:32–21:35)

• Arabelle’s book investigates how the beauty industry is tangled with global politics, capitalism, and a “crisis of care.”
• Not a light read, but an unflinching look at the ugly aspects across the industry.

Grappling with Paradox (21:35–25:15)

• Quote:

  “I can love something that I hate and hate something that I love. Both are true emotions and both are fair to have... It’s like shadow work. You must confront that which feels ugly or unresolved.” — Arabelle (22:19)

• Discusses the challenge of embracing beauty while acknowledging its exploitation and oppression.
• Highlights the lack of proper recognition for artists and laborers in beauty, emphasizing relationship-building and valuing their stories as key to reporting.

Structure and Chapters of House of Beauty (25:15–28:21)

• Book conceived as interconnected “rooms” in a house; themes cover:
  • Global production and distribution of beauty products (“choose your own disaster”)
  • The problematic legacy of Chanel and fragrance’s ties to fascism
  • Nails, war, and Asian American immigration
  • Hair and exploitation in the beauty economy
  • Biohackers, body modification, and the quest for immortality

The Biohacking & Immortality Chapter (28:21–34:52)

• Explores the “Near Death is the Father of Beauty” chapter, which documents encounters with longevity enthusiasts and transhumanist biohackers pre-mainstream.
• Contrasts privilege-driven interests in longevity with the lack of societal investment in true disability justice and accessibility.
• Quote:

  “If we were able to dedicate as much passion, drive, curiosity, and solution-making to everyday access issues for disabled people and chronically ill people, this country would be a lot better off. But we still have wheelchairs being broken in airports by the dozens every single day.” — Arabelle (34:15)

---

Cosmetology School & Direct Experience (36:20–39:27)

• Arabelle is pursuing cosmetology at Santa Monica College for research, not professional practice, to understand access, education, and the lived experience of beauty workers.
• Learns directly from instructors about the industry’s long-term health impacts, sacrifices made by service providers, and the variety of students’ backgrounds (working moms, career changers, etc.).

---

Vision for a Better Beauty Industry (39:27–42:31)

• Discusses maintaining hope and a communal vision for change, despite being steeped in industry horrors.
• Cites Mariame Kaba:

  “Hope is a discipline” — Arabelle’s guiding mantra during writing

• Imagines a future where the beauty industry centers true care, labor rights, sustainability, and solidarity.
• Quote:

  “If we were to say it doesn’t matter because the world is collapsing and we just leave it at that, we would be doing the job of those who oppress us. It’s our job to do the work and hope that it works out... Another world is possible, not guaranteed.” — Arabelle (42:00)

---

Rapid-Fire Beauty Faves & Indulgences (43:39–45:10)

• Arabelle’s current indulgence: weekly blowouts (even if it means cutting back on therapy).
• Revels in wandering NYC and sampling affordable services like two-hour Chinatown massages.
• Quote:

  “My deepest indulgence is, I don’t wash my own hair. I am getting a weekly blowout... This still counts as mental health, but it is therapeutic.” — Arabelle (43:54)

---

Connection, Follow-up, and Book Tour Info (45:15–46:09)

• Find Arabelle at arabellsicardi.substack.com
• Upcoming book events at Books Are Magic (NYC), Skylight Books (LA); scented bookmarks available with indie pre-orders.
• Active on all major social platforms.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I can love something that I hate and hate something that I love. Both are true emotions and both are fair to have... It’s like shadow work.” — Arabelle (22:19)
• “Wedding planning is a heterocentric nightmare.” — Arabelle (14:44)
• “Hope is a discipline.” — (quoted from Mariame Kaba, 40:05)
• “If we were able to dedicate as much passion, drive, curiosity, and solution-making to everyday access issues for disabled people and chronically ill people, this country would be a lot better off.” — Arabelle (34:15)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------| | 02:01 | Opening catch-up, life/parenting talk | | 10:05 | Introduction of Arabelle Sicardi | | 12:28 | Self care practices | | 14:40 | Marriage, wedding stories | | 17:15 | Nails and community | | 20:32 | House of Beauty: what’s it about? | | 25:15 | Book structure & chapter themes | | 28:21 | Biohacking, body modification | | 36:20 | Cosmetology school insights | | 39:27 | Vision for a better industry | | 43:39 | Beauty routines Arabelle enjoys | | 45:15 | Where to find Arabelle |

---

Closing Reflections

• The episode skillfully balances humor and honesty as it explores the contradictions of craving beauty in a culture and industry rife with exploitation, inequality, and climate peril.
• Arabelle Sicardi challenges listeners to confront beauty’s dark side without surrendering hope or their own enjoyment of self care.
• The call is for a new, community-based approach to beauty—one that's as much about collective well-being and justice as it is about products and glam.

---

Useful for anyone who hasn’t listened, this summary spotlights the episode’s major themes and arguments, notable anecdotes and insights, and the spirit of hope and self-examination at its core.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, this is Paige desorbo and today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile. So you're thinking about upgrading to the amazing new iPhone 17 Pro, the most powerful iPhone yet with 8 times optical zoom. But are you also thinking about the traffic on your way to the store or transferring all your data? Well, good news. When you order a new iPhone online with Boost Mobile, they'll send an expert to your home or work to deliver your brand new iPhone 17 Pro and get you all set up on Boost Mobile within minutes. Can no hassle. Visit boostmobile.com to get started. Delivery available for select devices [e-mail] terms apply.

[B]

The thing I love about fall weather is how easy it feels to look polished and stay warm with a nice sweater. And with Quince you can do both those things and save big without compromising on quality. If you're not ready to say goodbye to summer though, and it's still pretty hot out here where I am, I just got the high waisted European linen shorts from from Quince that have been treating me really well. It's a great lightweight fabric that still feels like quality and didn't cost more than $30. If you're ready for fall, I've been eyeing wool coats. They look designer level but just a fraction of the price. And the quality is just as good, if not better. By partnering directly with ethical top tier factories and cutting out the middleman, Quince delivers luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. Keep it classic cozy this fall with long lasting staples from Quint. Just go to quint.com forever35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U I N C E.com forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn.com forever35.

[C]

Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[B]

And I'm Elise Hu and we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[C]

Welcome to the show. Today we have Arabelle Sicardi on the show. She is a beauty writer who has a new book out called House of Beauty that is a very interesting take on the beauty industry like one that I haven't really seen before.

[B]

It's kind of a takedown if you will.

[C]

I really enjoyed our conversation so we will get to her her in a little bit.

[B]

Elise, how Are you doing, all things considered, pretty good. Ava turned 13 this week, so I now officially have a teenager. Yes. And instead of a party, she just wanted to go get hot pot as a family. So we all went for hot pot. We're lucky to be in one of the cities that has a Heidi La. And Heidi Lau is, like, the great hot pot place restaurant that has franchise locations, kind of like Din Tai Fung does. So we went to Heidi Lau, and then she wanted a shopping spree instead of a party, because she was like, listen, don't birthday parties cost, like, 700 to $1,000 at least? And I'm like, hmm, If I think about that. Yeah, yeah. And she's like, why don't you just spend it on me in a shopping spree? And I was like, no, because when you put it that way, I don't want to spend 700 to $1,000, but maybe you can have, like, a smaller figure and we can go on a shopping spree. So she's gonna do that on Saturday, and then. Which means, I guess I'm gonna do that. Yep. And then Rachel Goodwin was so kind. Our resident celebrity makeup artist Rachel Goodwin was so kind, she saved up a bunch of the swag that she gets that is teen appropriate, like Sol de Janeiro sprays and drunk elephant, the Dior lip oils that Ava likes and some Ilia stuff, and saved all that for Ava. And Rob went over there and picked up the stash, and Ava was like, oh, my gosh, this haul, it's incredible. Where'd you get all this? And so huge thank you to Rachel for making Ava's birthday really special. So, yeah, I mean, obviously, I'm just trying not to be in despair about the state of the world, but overall, okay, I'm doing okay. How are you? What's happening?

[C]

I am. I am. Okay. There was a talk about executive function at my son's school, and it was mostly focused on how to, like, build good habits around executive functioning in our kids. But, I mean, the building of the habits starts with the parents. And so, you know, this was already something that I had been kind of reflecting on. Just like, how does our home environment affect Henry's mental health, his behavior, his outlook on life? And, you know, I. I'm just like, okay, really? Some things have to change. Like, I already knew that. But just to have it kind of presented in such a matter of fact way.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And also a very actionable way, like this. This OT was. She wasn't just like, you know, here's. Here's the theory behind it. She was like, here's what you need to do. Like, it was very, you know, very.

[B]

Clear, practical, and actionable. Yes, good.

[C]

Very practical and actionable. Yeah. My. A couple mom friends and I were there, and we were all like, oh, that was very actionable. Like, that was very help. Actually helpful.

[B]

Don't forget to send me that handout. Yeah. I also want to benefit from this.

[C]

You definitely will. Great one. Just like, I'll just share one little thing that she suggested that I'm definitely gonna do, which is to have, like, a little checklist for what goes in your kids backpacks and have it in a luggage tag. Like a. Like a clear luggage tag. And that way they look at the checklist attached to their backpack and they know everything that's in the backpack or that should be in the backpack. And I was like, I am also going to do this with my tennis bag. Like, these are. These are going to be things that are helpful for me.

[B]

Girl, at least you have a tennis bag. I'm like, just care. I walk out the door carrying random things in my hand. Oh, no.

[C]

It's like, you need a tennis bag.

[B]

I'm gonna put that on my. On my Christmas list for somebody else to get me. Because I. I do. Because I just, like, carry stuff out the door. It's so funny. My children are more organized than I am. And I think part of it is because Ava has always been a classic Virgo. She has, like, to do lists. I've talked about how she. When she was like, four, she got really into making to do lists for herself. But then as she got older, she decided to have, like, prompts for her journaling every night.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

So on her wall, there were prompts for, like, what were some highlights of your day? What could you have done better? You know, like, all these things that she. And this is so. Ava. This is not like anything I've ever done. And she. So she's very good about organizing all of her things, which then only shows what a mess I am in comparison. So then they get, like, really frustrated with me because they're like, pull it together, mom. Like, why don't you have, oh, my God, your shit in a bag? Or like, you know, like, why are we late? And maybe it's because, like, I think Maddie is really good about checklists. So he has the girls on Sunday nights. He has, like, a printed list sort of like before you. Before you go to bed, do you have, you know, your water bottle somewhere ready to fill? Do you have your outfit picked out? For tomorrow because he really wants smooth mornings because he doesn't, like, he has more anxiety and he gets, like, stressed. Whereas me, I'm just like, well, it's a chaotic morning. That's normal.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And so.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

He learns.

[C]

He's actually really happy with Maddie's system.

[D]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, it sounds. It sounds like he has these systems, and he, like, keeps a spreadsheet of all sorts of, like, important, important, like, things that I might need to know for forms. You know, how we have to fill out a bunch of forms at the beginning of the year. And he's like, please refer to, you know, our file for all of the information that you need for all of that and the insurance card. And so it's nice. It's nice to have somebody who's a little bit more on it for those sorts of things.

[C]

I love that. I love that. Yeah. So that's. I cleaned off my desk yesterday. I still have some more to go, but, like, there was literally a pile of papers. Like, some of the stuff I was uncovering was dated, like, 2023. And I was like, okay.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, it's been there for a minute. Hopefully it wasn't a bill or something. Hopefully it wasn't like, hey, don't forget to renew your car registration. I mean, 2023.

[C]

But, like, yeah, it was like, yeah, I was definitely like, okay.

[B]

I keep not wanting to pay a bill, and so, like, it's just sitting there on my nightstand. I don't want to pay it because I sort of, like, object to having to pay for it. But this isn't that you're saying this 2023 thing is just there because it's just been sitting there.

[C]

I mean, I found multiple old, like, planners that I had started.

[D]

Whoops.

[C]

I was like, oops. I did also find a couple of gift cards, so that was fun.

[B]

Oh, great. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Love that. It's like finding $20 in your jacket pocket, you know, your winter coat or whatever. Good for you.

[C]

Well, should we introduce our guest?

[B]

Yes. I will do the honors of introducing Arabel Sicardi, a writer and consultant who focuses on beauty as an art form, an act of care, and a tool of political possibility. Consider them a beauty world builder. They pen a beauty newsletter and have written for places like Allure, Elle Sense, Teen Vogue, the Cut, Google, and Vogue Business. They've worked on projects for tech companies for places like Ginkgo, Twitter, and Airbnb. So far, they've written two books, Queer Heroes, a children's book on queer folks throughout history, and this new one that is coming out soon called the House of Beauty, a nonfiction book on the beauty industry. And they run a scent centered creative collective called Perfumed Pages and a nonprofit arts project called the Museum of Nails Foundation. Like we said, they're a world builder.

[C]

Very cool. So before we get to Arabelle, just a couple of reminders. Our website is forever35podcast.com we have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are also on Instagram @forever35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com forever35. If you want to hear more in depth conversations on things like what I learned from the OT at my son's school, you can join our Patreon and get our weekly casual chats that are just a little more freewheeling, I would say.

[B]

Yeah, you know, I also have my crisis updates.

[C]

Yes. Oh yes, Elise has her crisis updates. I mean there's a lot happening over there. Also at the $10 level on our Patreon, you can get ad free episodes of these regular episodes. So if you are not an ads person, then support us on Patreon and it's like kind of the same thing. You can shop our favorite products at Shop my usual slash. Forever 35. Our newsletter is at forever35podcast.com newsletter and you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and here is Arabel. Arabel, welcome to Forever 35. We are so happy to have you on the show.

[D]

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yay.

[C]

Well, we start off by asking our guests the exact same question every time, which is do you have a self care practice that you would like to share? And we, we define self care very, very broadly. So whatever you think might be might fall within the definition. Probably does.

[D]

I do have a self care practice. I have several. I am obsessed with self care, but right now I'm really enjoying lifting, like lifting weights. And I am discovering that I am a little bit of a gym rat. So I do, I do like going to do pilates. I do like going to do weights and swimming. And if I were not going to, if I'm not going to the gym like every other day, I do feel like I descend deeper into psychosis. So I need to be sweating. I need to be sweating.

[B]

What is your gym like? Like, what's kind of your gym vibe? Do you go to a place that's very sceney? Do you go to A more of a why?

[D]

My local New York gym is full of octogenarians. Like, I am easily the youngest person there, and it's incredible and inspiring because they're all not breaking a sweat, doing, like, the lifting, and they're all at least 70 in my class, and I'm suffering, holding five pound weights, being like, oh, God, don't let me humiliate myself. It's awesome. It's awesome. They all have a backstory, and I really enjoy that it's not seen y. And in la, I go to, like, the typical fancy gym with neon lighting and everyone has, like, an influencer deal at the local Botox clinic. So it's very different vibes. Very different.

[B]

Oh, for sure, for sure.

[C]

So you are bicoastal.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

How is that?

[D]

I mean, it's a new thing for me and it's. Honestly, it's really fun. I do feel like I am embodying the dual income, no kids, lesbian dream, currently. And that's. That's fun.

[C]

You recently got married.

[D]

I did in fact, recently get married.

[C]

Congratulations, by the way.

[D]

It was really nice. Thank you. Thank you. It was a really small. It was a small wedding at a little place in Little Italy where we had our first dates. Wedding planning is a heterocentric nightmare. I've learned a lot about family dynamics and how valuable it is to delegate as much as possible to professionals.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

So highly recommend hiring a wedding planner if you can afford it. Yeah. I think it's really important to maintain sanity.

[B]

What did you learn about yourself in all of this?

[D]

Oh, God. That I have incredible taste and that I am a favored child of the universe because the things that I wanted to happen happened even when it seemed unreasonable. And, like, the first expense for the wedding was actually the. The wedding dress. I found it on consignment exactly in my size, and it's a vintage Alexander McQueen. So I was like, oh, I don't have to do anything. And I didn't want it to be a huge deal. And I didn't even know if I wanted anyone at the wedding. We were very close to eloping. Um, but the first thing that I found was the perfect dress. And then everything else fell into place, and I didn't have to deal with trying to discover my own taste because everything kind of just built itself out from the dress. So that was nice.

[C]

Was this a dress you had in mind or you just sort of saw it and you were like, oh, this is the dress?

[D]

Yeah, I just saw it and I got the dress, probably. I got this dress in 2020. And I got it. Yeah, I got this in 2020. And we didn't have anything else planned for years because obviously the pandemic shut down. We were like, what's society gonna look like? I had no idea what I wanted it to be. I think the wedding probably would have looked wildly different if it was a different dress, a different agenda. But it kind of embodies a lot of my personality. It has like chainmail down the back. It's. And I very much wanted to feel more like a vengeful princess than a collected, perfect looking bride. I didn't have a hairstylist or anything. I did my own hair and my friends did my makeup and it felt very me.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And that was important to me. But yeah, like it. Five stars.

[C]

Amazing. I love that. I love that the dress, everything sort of like fell out from the dress. You just raised your fingers in front of the camera and I noticed your nails. Wow. Could you describe them for our listeners who might not be seeing?

[D]

Sure. So these are a set actually inspired by my book cover. So I had my New York go to nail tech Kisang, who is mentioned in the book. She gets to shout out. She's woven into the. To the chapter on nails. I had her just riff on a set inspired by like the book cover. And we spent a couple hours over the weekend just catching up and gave her one of the first copies of the House of Beauty. And we just caught up about what the past couple of years have been because I knew she was going to be in the book as soon as I met her and I had promised myself to give her one of the first copies. So it was like really important to me that she, she get like one of the first and that she knows that her work has carried me through so many times in so many different places.

[C]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[B]

The thing I love about fall weather is how easy it feels to look polished and stay warm with a nice sweater. And with Quince, you can do both those things and save big without compromising on quality. If you're not ready to say goodbye to summer though, and it's still pretty hot out here where I am, I just got the high waisted European linen shorts from Quince that have been treating me really well. It's a great lightweight fabric that still feels like quality and didn't cost more than $30. If you're ready for fall, I've been eyeing wool coats. They look designer level, but just a fraction of the price and the quality is just as good, if not better. By partnering directly with ethical top tier factories and cutting out the middleman, Quince delivers luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from Quince. Just go to quince.comforever35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.comforever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comforever35.

[E]

And now a next level moment from AT and T Business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be there in time for International Sleep day. You've got AT and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding and International Sleep Day is tomorrow. Luckily, AT&T5G lets you deal with any issues with ease, so the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. AT&T 5G requires a compatible plan and device coverage not available everywhere. Learn [e-mail] 5G Network.

[B]

Talk to us about the House of Beauty it comes out October 14th, so just around the corner, what should listeners know about it?

[D]

This is a book that feels extremely timely, unfortunately to the state of America and how the state of the beauty industry is so tied into the state of affairs on a global scale. In terms of politics, when I describe the House of Beauty, I am typically saying that is a book about the beauty industry and how it's deeply entwined and invested in the politics of the world and to the crisis of care and how we mistreat each other under capitalism. So it's not a I don't think it's a light read, but it does feel like it's an essential story of all of these ugly sides of the beauty industry in all of the different niches that exist within it.

[B]

I mean, the book forces us to confront so much of the awfulness of the industry, right? And the history of it. I know you've always been into really delving into the history of various tools or practices or procedures, and you go through how Chanel was acting as a Nazi spy, the child labor involved in sourcing beauty products and packaging, the deforestation and environmental costs of so much of the industry. But there's also your personal narrative that's weaved in throughout. And of course there's so much that you like about beauty practices and enjoy. How did you grapple with all of the paradoxes? Because I obviously constantly do the same.

[D]

So many years of therapy. So many years, so many years. Like shout out to my therapist, she is really an unofficial book editor of this experience. I'm so used to having a split sense of identity around the beauty industry that it doesn't feel stressful anymore. Maybe I've just acclimated to acknowledging that I can love something that I hate and hate something that I love. And both are true emotions and both are fair to have. And it's. It's like shadow work, you know, like you must confront that which feels ugly or unresolved and frightening and all of these other things. If you don't confront it, it just gets bigger and more powerful. And so doing this work and really examining all these difficult conversations, it really taught me so much about my own sense of self, my own morals, ethics, integrity, the parameters of curiosity that I navigate my life with. And also it really taught me how to be a better reporter in terms of understanding. I wanted to have long term relationships with many of the people within the book and I wanted to have them understand that even if they were treated as disposable or expendable within a very exploitative system, their story and them as a person, they were invaluable and they should not be disposed of. And I wanted to build trust because I do think that so much of the time, writers doing trend reporting or whatever in the beauty industry, they don't really truly value and respect like nail artists or the craftspeople creating looks for celebrities or on a daily basis, they're not treating them as artists, they're asking them how they made a celebrity like hot or whatever. But a lot of the times they don't get any credit in stories. And a lot of the times when I was doing my interviews throughout the years, the first couple of interactions were always kind of bad. You know, like they were distrustful because they'd been approached for reporting before or asked to like do nail sets or something for free for influencers. And they didn't really trust me as a person because they didn't know me. And if I wanted to really tell the story of the industry, I wanted them to know that they are a main character in the industry, they're not a big player. And so that understanding how to really build a community with not just my sources, but these people within my life was really, it was really eye opening. I really loved the experience.

[C]

Could you just sort of walk our listeners through the eight chapters in your book. Like, just kind of give a brief overview of what the book is and why you chose to focus on these particular themes.

[D]

Yeah. So I'll give you some insight onto why it's even called the House of Beauty, and that might explain it too. So one of the original frameworks for the book was actually going to be like, physically, it was going to be architecture. So each story was essentially its own room. But that wasn't really working. And it was a little too on the nose. But they are all kind of interconnected stories of different spheres and niches within the beauty industry at large. So the book opens up with, if I remember correctly, it is a choose your own adventure. It's really a choose your own disaster of the different ways that beauty products are made, produced and distributed around the world. And it walks you through real life reporting and stories pulled from the news relating to how beauty products are made. After that, you can then read about the history of Chanel no. 5, which is one of the most successful perfumes ever produced. It is an icon of the fragrance industry and it is an exquisite perfume. Like, despite my professional hateration in these pages, I would never besmirch the juice. It's still beautiful today. But the Chanel chapter was an origin story. And the book kind of built itself around my obsession with the connection between fragrance and fascism, because the beauty industry, and particularly fragrance, is such a touch point of culture and commodity and how we introduce ourselves into the world. And Chanel herself is also obviously huge in fashion, and I come from a fashion background. And the house of Chanel is, you know, despite Karl Lagerfeld's having passed away, is still like this prestige, the biggest of the big, the most respected, no one says no to Chanel kind of thing. And I was always obsessed with the history of Chanel as a person and what her perfume represented. The other chapters break down the connection between the nail industry and war and specifically Asian American immigration to the United States and hair and the empire of exploitation and connections we have to each other within the hair industry and hair economy. And I also hang out with biohackers and transhumanists and people obsessed with living forever by any means necessary. So we cover a lot of ground. Yeah.

[B]

I reread the future chapter actually this morning because I read your book a while ago. Thank you for sending it to me a while ago, but because I recently ran into Brian Johnson at a party. Who you mention. Who you mentioned. Yes, the guy who wants to live forever. The one who thinks he's immortal.

[D]

How was that?

[B]

Oh, well, the big observation about Brian Johnson that I shared with Dor and the listeners was that I had interviewed him in 2019. This is before he decided to be a transhumanist. And he was just working on brain computer interface. So he was doing, like the brain implanted. Yeah. Devices, essentially. And then he got into this immortality thing. But since I saw him last, until last week, it looked like he had aged a decade. He looked like the oldest immortal man, which just shows you how this, like, boomerangs back into itself.

[D]

Maybe the transfusions aren't working with his.

[B]

Well, yeah, talk a little bit about it, because the chapter is called Near Death is the Father of Beauty. What did you learn? You go to a body hacking convention. What did you learn about that? What all is considered body hacking these days? And then where did you land after spending time with these folks?

[D]

So, contextually, I went to this conference, I think, in 2016, you know, before we knew anything about this dude and before a lot of public consumption had. Knew what the words longevity. Like, yes.

[B]

There wasn't like, NAD and David Sinclair and Peter Attia and stuff yet.

[D]

No, this was. This was like early adopters of biohacking technology stabbing themselves with genome experiments in their garages. So when I say like early adopters, I mean, legally, a lot of these people were not allowed to be doing what they were doing through official means. And a lot of transhumanists and biohackers, I do just. I do consider there to be a distinction, and I'll explain that they would be doing experiments out of the United States because they don't want to get yelled at for experimenting on themselves because that's frowned upon. But I was interested in spending time with transhumanists, biohackers, people that just were really focused on either living forever or reaching maximum optimal performance as human beings. Because I had this gut feeling that it had so much to do with the pressures of capitalism and their fear of death and aging. And those are very human in kind of universal fears, but they just go about confronting them in a very obviously specific and radical way. And I wanted to actually understand the connection between these fears and how they might intersect with the future of the beauty and wellness industries. And now we can see that they're absolutely intertwined. And we got, like, longevity spas popping up. Like, you know, 23rd street has Home Depot and AI beauty clinics now. You know, the ship has sailed. We are on the ship.

[B]

Yep.

[D]

But a lot. It's. It's weird. Because I mean, before forever man, as I call him, existed there. The dart, like the usb, brain memory stuff that he was working on before this, that was also a DARPA project that was like a defense. The like defense project for the United States. And DARPA was actually at this conference and they walked, they walked us through the potentials of this. And when I was at this conference, I was both entertained and a little heartbroken every single minute because they were so hopeful and curious and genuinely very pleasant, playful people. They're very passionate about their own self agency and I mean a little libertarian, but like, whatever, I can hang out with you. You just be nice to me, like I want to know more about you. They were just really, really curious, exploratory people. But at the same time, there was just this huge blind spot in the actual conversations with lived people with disability. Like there was all these conversations about genome experiments and finding ways to live healthier, live forever. But there weren't a lot of speakers that were actually like disabled and required, you know, assistive devices and stuff. It was people that kind of approach these things voluntarily. And it brought up a lot for me emotionally because I entered this space in this context, having more of a disability justice community within my immediate friend group. And my, my dad is also like disabled. And that particular chapter has so much to do with my dad and my understanding of what it means to live well. And it kind of just broke my heart because transhumanists and these biohackers, a lot of the most famous ones, the ones with the most resources stewarding all of these experiments, they do not suffer in the same ways an ordinary disabled person or chronically ill person does, especially in the United States, because they can throw money at their problems, like forever. Man can spend 2 million a year on all of these different things because he's terrified of aging, but they're kind of elective curiosities for him. Yeah. And if we were able to dedicate as much passion, drive, curiosity and solution making to the everyday access issues for disabled people and chronically ill people, this country would be a lot better off. But we still have wheelchairs being broken in airports by the dozens every single day. And you're still penalized as a disabled person if you take a job and you lose your health insurance. These are very real issues systemically.

[B]

Why live forever when we haven't helped improve society? You know, for everybody to live better, just to live well in the time that we have.

[C]

Yep.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

[F]

The market's uncertain, revenues tight and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using upwork to keep work moving. Go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead, no rigid long term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's Upwork.com post a job for free and get started today.

[G]

Imagine a world of extraordinary comfort where bowline branch bedding wraps you in the softest. Embrace the coziest experience. Made from the world's finest 100% organic cotton, all so you can sleep better. Start building your fall sanctuary with Bolen Branch's iconic signature sheets made with a buttery, breathable weave that gets softer with every wash. Enjoy. 15% off your first set of sheets with free shipping and returns at B O L L and Branch.com with code buttery. See site for details and exclusions.

[C]

Arabel I want to kind of switch gears a little bit because in your last chapter you talk about how you decided to go to cosmetology school and I'm wondering, did you finish or how is that going? What have you learned?

[D]

I'm still in it, technically. The next semester starts actually like right as book tour starts. So I have absolutely no idea how I will be doing both in person training and doing a national book tour. We'll see how that shakes out. But I have been in it for the past couple of years doing a couple classes every, every semester at local community college. Shout out to Santa Monica College.

[B]

What's up?

[D]

Yeah, we love community college and accessible education. Yeah, so I'm still in cosmetology school and I wanted to do it because I wanted to just know the access issues and the education given to, you know, nail technicians and cosmetology professionals in this day and age, like in person, I don't plan on taking clients. I have absolutely no customer service skills and no time. But I was doing it for research really and it's been really fun and also humbling because the instructors one have been taking care in providing service work in the beauty industry longer than I've been alive. And they have seen the industries change so wildly and they're kind of blase about the the amount of long term chronic illness that beauty professionals eventually end up experiencing. A lot of the times because they're just like that, that ship has sailed for them. They're like, oh yeah, we didn't know how bad it was for a respiratory systems until recently, or we didn't know this was bad for. For hair until recently. And I've been doing it for 40 years, so yeah, no wonder I have lung cancer. You're like, okay, cool. And you're still teaching us. Okay, nice. So hearing firsthand from, like, true veterans about how the industry's changed and how people, you know, sacrifice their own bodily health in order to take care and provide beauty services to other people, oftentimes people that disrespect them. It was a really interesting conversation to have with the instructors and with other students and to understand that the other students in the class are from wildly different backgrounds. Some of them are like, this is their third or fourth career or it's going to be their second or third job. And having these types of conversations about the interaction between being a mother and being a service worker and kind of making the math math was so enlightening.

[B]

Mm. Okay. So towards the end of the book, you share your more affirmative vision for beauty, right? And I'm interested in it, of course, because it is a vision of something more communal and political and I. And really just community centered. And I also wish for this. And I came to a similar conclusion at the end of Flawless. And so tell us about the industry that you would want to see and the way that we ought to be engaging with these products, procedures, and practices.

[D]

Yeah, it was really hard to write that last chapter because it's really hard after going through all of those other stories, to leave without a hugely bitter taste in my mouth. Like Mariame Kaba, the community organizer and educator. Like her, her most famous quote is like, hope is a discipline. And I thought about that quote constantly. It was my. It was like my meditation exercise when I was going through this book, trying to figure out a way to not drown in the despair of what I was learning. And my conclusion is that we need to have a fundamental change in how we care for each other before we can ever find real institutional change or resolution. And I don't know if that's possible right now, but that doesn't mean that it won't be in the future. And I would never allow myself to let the defeat win personally, because I'm not so important that my own defeat should be a determining factor to the final result. I kind of surrendered to the reality that I, myself and my generation might not see the results of the sacrifices and solidarity and all of the good work that so many people have done, continue to do. But that doesn't mean it's not worth doing. And that it's not vital, like seeing the final results of community organizing and all the small wins that groups around the world, young and old, do on a daily basis to try to make sure that the climate's protected, that unions are protected, that we have labor rights, that there's more sustainable practices around packaging and product regulation and this. On the other thing, if. If we were to say it doesn't matter because the world is collapsing and we just leave it at that, we would be doing the job of those who oppress us. It's not up to us to stay defeated forever. It's our job to, like, do the work and hope that it works out. And if it doesn't work out for us individually, okay, like, that's a heartbreaking moment to experience. But at least for me, I've come to terms with the fact that another world is possible and not guaranteed.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And my job as a human being who cares about other people is to make sure that I'm making it a little closer every day to being guaranteed for somebody down the line. That's all they want.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, all social change has happened as a result of little actions by a critical mass of people. And I think that we forget that. And the whole episode with Jimmy Kimmel was a good reminder of that, actually over the last week or so. So, yeah. I feel like even the most cynical take on hope is that is, what choice do we have? You know, like, if we are going to go on, what choice do we have? So, yeah. So, yeah, I like that. Before we let you go, is there anything trendy? You've been a beauty writer forever. Is there anything trendy that you're super into right now? Any product. I know, this sort of boomerangs back. It's like, it was so funny because I went on book tour and I talked about all these similar ideas, and then people would be like, oh, but what K. Beauty stuff are you into?

[D]

I know.

[B]

And I was like, wait, that wasn't. Wait, that wasn't the point.

[D]

That's what you got from it. Amazing. Yeah.

[B]

But I do kind of want to ask because, you know, just to. Just to hold the polarities here. What are you into?

[D]

Of course, right now, my, like, deepest indulgence is I don't wash my own hair. I am getting a weekly blowout.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[D]

And I actually, you know, I just moved money around, so I was going to less therapy so I could go get a blowout. I was like, you know, this still counts as mental health, but it is therapeutic.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my Gosh, it feels so good to get your hair washed and tended to by someone else.

[D]

It does. And that has been my guilty pleasure. But in terms of, like, other stuff and beauty, I love going around to different places in New York right now and just walking in and getting a random service. This, this other day, I went to this massage place in Chinatown that offers like a two hour massage, like two hour foot and body massage for like 99 bucks. And I'm like, okay, so I got some dim sum and then I like, came out of the massage feeling like I was like beautifully macerated meat. I was like, I've never felt so tender in my life. I feel so at peace and I slept so well. So shout out to Chinatown. Yes.

[B]

Oh, those foot massages, so good.

[C]

I love the idea of just like going around and trying out different places and different services. That's, that's also such a New York thing where you can just kind of wander in. And I miss that. I miss that about New York.

[D]

Yeah. The art of wandering. It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Well, Arabel, where can our listeners find you if they want to read your book or maybe see you on book tour? Tell us all the things.

[D]

The easiest way is perhaps my substack, which is arabellsicardi.substack.com But I will be at Books are Magic in New York and Skylight Books in la. And these are also indie bookstores that have scented bookmark pre orders, which will be super fun. And there's a couple other cities we're confirming, but you can find me online on almost every social media platform because I am unfortunately deeply online, so. Online. Yeah, yeah, just find me. Same name everywhere.

[B]

Digital detox is not your self care.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

No, I wish. My gosh. God. Yeah, no, I'm online, so online, but.

[B]

All right. Arabell Saardi, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[C]

Thank you, Arabella.

[D]

Thank you for having me. You're the best.

[C]

It is funny for me to talk to all these people that I used to work with at BuzzFeed, because, like, you know, I knew Arabel 10, 12 years ago.

[B]

Yeah. Alex, it doesn't seem like I worked.

[C]

With her that long ago, but it was actually a long time ago. So, you know, know, it's, it's like kind of crazy to, to see these people again. But I think she's, you know, she's thriving. So.

[B]

Yeah, I'm really, yeah, that's, it's a very dense book. Like, I, I, I really think every, everybody should read It. And then all the essays focus on a specific topic and everything. So, yeah, especially for our audience. Y' all are interested in this stuff, so definitely check out the House of Beauty. All right. Intention zone.

[C]

Intention zone. So last week I was talking about strength training. I've. I haven't done that much more of it, mostly because there's been a lot of tennis this week. I need to figure out, like, what is a. What is a doable tennis strength combo? Because I don't want to neglect the strength. I mean, part. Part of the reason why I really wanted to get back on the strength length training train is because I want to avoid injury. So I'm going to keep working on that. And then this week, I also am going to keep working on all this executive function stuff, so.

[B]

Well, there's so many actionable steps, as you mentioned. So many actionable steps.

[C]

So many actionable steps.

[D]

Yay.

[B]

All right, well, we will support you in that endeavor, and I definitely want to take a look at it, too. My kids will be so proud of me since they seem to be doing better than me. My intention last week was to upcycle more. I have the package ready to send off to Sammy of Rob's Jeans. And then I have made a pile of clothes that I'm going to put in a big threat. What are they called? Those. What, Trashy? Yeah, Trashy is that service where you have to spend $20 for a bag, but then they'll take they. And I guess you have to ship it, but I have a. A pile prepared for that. And then I found some street wear. I found some street wear to bring to Crossroads because they rejected the jeans but asked for street wear.

[C]

Street wear. Okay.

[B]

Yes. And then I also put some items on Facebook Marketplace, and I haven't used Facebook Marketplace to sell before, so this is my first time to use it. And we'll see how that goes. I have bought a knee scooter. You know, like when you're injured and you have to scoot around.

[C]

Yes, I do know exactly what you're talking about.

[B]

I got one of those on Facebook Marketplace.

[C]

You know what? Honestly, that seems like the perfect use case for Facebook Marketplace. Something that is probably overpriced.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

That you need for a very specific reason and amount of time. Like, it's not something that you're going to be using forever. All the time, hopefully.

[B]

Right, Hopefully.

[C]

You know what I mean? So, yes. I love that you bought that on Facebook Marketplace. That's perfect.

[B]

Yeah. So we'll see if any of my side tables and random things from the back house sell. And then my intention this week is to digitize old tapes. But because as our casual chat listeners will know, we had a big media loss this week. And so I'm gonna take actual, like, old mini DV camera tapes and CDs and maybe some VHS, if the VHS is still standing and not corroded, and see what happens, See what's on those tapes. It costs a lot of money. It's like $30 per CD, 40 per tape. But I'm gonna eat the cost. I'm gonna do it so that it's there and things don't get worse for me in terms of like losing my memories that are on hard, hard media.

[C]

And to learn more about that, like we said, you can listen to our casual chat. It's a tragic tale.

[B]

That's right. Yeah. Teaser, teaser.

[C]

All right, everyone. Thanks so much for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. And we'll talk to you soon. Thanks.

[B]

Talk to you next time.

[C]

Bye.

[D]

Only Boost Mobile.

[B]

Boost Mobile.

[C]

We'll give you a free year of service.

[D]

Free year when you buy a new 5G phone.

[B]

New 5G phone?

[D]

Enough.

[B]

But I'm your hype man. When you purchase an eligible device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service, taxes extra for the device and service plan online only.

[G]

Imagine a world of extraordinary comfort where Bolin Branch bedding wraps you in the softest. Embrace the coziest experience, made from the world's finest 100% organic cotton, all so you can sleep better. Start building your fall sanctuary with Bolin Branch's iconic signature shape sheets made with a buttery, breathable weave that gets softer with every wash. Enjoy 15% off your first set of sheets with free shipping and returns at bol and branch. Com with code Buttery C site for details and exclusions.