C (2:55)

I think it does. I think also, like, I'm seven years older than my sister, so when we were growing up, that was a pretty significant age difference. And we didn't really become close until we were like, in our 20s. And now we're very close. We're very different, but we're very close. And then my brother is not only the only boy, but he's also the middle child. So there's like, you know, and we. It's funny, Sue, I thought sue was. Had some really, like, astute observations about middle children that. That we. That we talk about. And yeah, I mean, I think gender definitely, you know, definitely does play a role for sure.

B (3:44)

I'm really glad I had a brother. I felt like I kind of had a. More like a lot of my friends, even to this day, tend to be men, you know, Like, I have a lot of guy friends that I roll around with. Last night I went to a concert with one of my dad friends, Alex. And I think it's because I was always surrounded by boys. Like, kind of a bro ish vibe in my life, even when I was very, very young. Like, my younger brother, all his friends, I babysat boys. All my neighbor kids were boys, all in the same grade. So, you know, I grew up in the 90s when we were all allowed to just go outside and run around until dark. And so all we did was like, kick the can, capture the flag, ghost in the graveyard, soccer at night in our shared yards with Tommy, Ryan, Craig and the other Craig. And those were like, that was my friend group. And it was like this all the way until about middle school, when things kind of get weird with boys because you start liking them.

C (4:40)

Yeah.

B (4:40)

Oh, my God. I embarrassed the crap out of Ava. At school.

C (4:44)

At school drop off.

B (4:45)

Yesterday, she actually told me she was gonna murder me. She was like, mom, oh, wow, I'm going to murder you. I was so obnoxious. So obnoxious. Store I. So she talks on the phone with this other boy who I have known since they were in school together, like, in second grade. But it's not like I ever talked to him until this year when they talk on the phone at night and, like, they're on speaker. She insists on having all her conversations on speaker, both in the car and in her room. And so then I'm like, what's up? Name redacted. And so every night I end up talking to him, and he's like, hi, how's it going? And, you know, he's so embarrassed, and he doesn't really want to be chatting with me. But it's Ava's fault because he's on speaker, you know? And so I had been really used to talking to him all the time, but I guess something changed over the last couple of days.

C (5:40)

Oh, no.

B (5:41)

And they stopped talking as much.

C (5:43)

Oh, no.

B (5:44)

And I was sort of aware that, like, that something had changed. Yeah, but not I. But she hasn't been really clear on what exactly happened, such that they're not talking to each other as much. She just told me she's like, name redacted. And I haven't been talking at school that much. I think we're just kind of taking a break from each other. And so as I'm dropping her off at school, she's on the passenger side, and she opens the door to walk towards the building, and she looks to her left and says, oh, my gosh, there's name redacted. He's coming our way. I take this as an opportunity to be like, oh, name redacted is coming. I haven't seen him in person, and so. And I talk to him every night. So I rolled down the window, and I'm like, name redacted. What's up?

C (6:35)

Oh, my God.

B (6:38)

And he's like, oh, hey. And I'm like, I'm Ava's mom. We talk all the time. And he was just. He turned beet red.

C (6:45)

No, he's that sweet kid.

B (6:46)

He has, like, really sweet little dimples, too. But he was frozen. He's just standing there in his hoodie with his hands in his pockets, and he's, like, nodding his head up and down like, yep. And I was like, oh, well, you seem kind of embarrassed. I should be embarrassed because I'm sitting here in my pajamas, and Ava has walked away. Ava is gone. Yeah. Ava's like, dude, she didn't want to.

C (7:09)

Be exclud from this narrative.

B (7:11)

She's like, may I be excused? She said nothing. She saw me engaging with him, and she was just gone. And I. That poor kid was so polite because he stood there and talked. And I was like, is this just weird? Because we usually talk on the phone and not, like, in person? He's like, yeah, I guess. And I was like, okay, I'll let you go, man. Anyway, yeah, Ava's very upset with me. I couldn't help it. I was so excited to see him. I told Robin. He's like, are you crazy? You can't mess with middle school dynamics like that.

C (7:41)

Oh, yeah, you like, there was a disruption in the force.

B (7:46)

It just was too much it was too much, and I feel bad now. Ava was very upset after school when I picked her up, and she told me I was going to be murdered, so.

C (7:57)

Oh, my God.

B (7:59)

I know. She says they're just not gonna talk for a while and maybe it'll blow over.

C (8:02)

So, I mean, okay. But, you know.

B (8:05)

But she was like, you know what? Now name redacted, thinks I'm weirder than ever. And I'm like, does he think you're weirder than ever? Or me? Because I feel this could actually be a uniting kind of situation for the two of you because both of you can unite against me, who made a fool of myself.

C (8:22)

Her weird mom.

B (8:23)

Weird obnoxious mom. Yeah. So I don't know. I feel like I. It was. Could have gone both ways. And she was like, I know you didn't intend to hurt me, but I feel very hurt by this situation.

C (8:34)

Aw. So good for her for being able to, like, name that and. And say it.

B (8:40)

Yeah. She's like, she.

D (8:43)

Yeah.

B (8:44)

Anyway, adventures. Yes.

C (8:47)

That feels like a good segue into introducing Sue Dominus. Who? You know, I think you and I have both been reading for years. She has been working for the New York Times since 2007. First she was a metro columnist, and then she's been a staff writer for the Times Magazine for a while now. She won a Pulitzer in 2018 for reporting on workplace sexual harassment. She. Let's see. She won a National Magazine Award in 2024 for her article about menopause. And her book the Family Dynamic. A Journey into the Mystery of Sibling Success was published in May. And it's a really excellent and fascinating book that I recommend, especially if you have siblings. But even if you don't, and it's. It's really interesting. And if you have children, there's. There's just, like a lot there.

B (9:48)

And she also part of a family. It's great.

C (9:50)

She's a part of a family. Yeah. She also teaches journalism at Yale. And yeah, it was such a great conversation. Before we get to her, though, I do just want to remind everyone Our website is forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show. Our Instagram is Forever35 podcast. You can join our Patreon and get our casual chats, our monthly pop culture episodes, and more at patreon.com forever35. Oh, including ad free episodes. Our favorite products are at Shopmy US Forever 35. Our newsletter is at forever35podcast.com newsletter and you can call or text us at 781-5910390 and email us@forever35podcastmail.com and here is Sue. Sue, welcome to Forever 35. We have so much to talk about. Really excited to get into it.

D (10:48)

I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.

C (10:50)

Yay. Well, we start off by asking all of our guests the same question, which is do you have a self care practice that you can share with our listeners?

D (11:02)

I have a ritual in the morning that has become self care, which is I make coffee. And while it's brewing, I put on my and just like that inspired kimono bathrobe.

B (11:19)

I have one. I have one also.

D (11:21)

Okay. Flannel, I realized was not cutting it after watching that series. And then I wander out to my garden and I see what's what. And usually I pick something, whether it is a tomato or a flower or some greenery. And then I wander back inside and I drink my coffee. And then often I wander back outside and do a little more gardening. But that is my it makes me excited to get up in the morning and that is huge. Having something that I'm excited to do first thing in the morning. That is very helpful.

B (11:55)

All right, so for context, I am the eldest daughter of two, but the only girl. So just so that you know, since we're going to be talking about siblings and complicated or complex family dynamics, I am the eldest daughter. Dory, you're also eldest daughter. Right.

C (12:12)

I'm also the eldest daughter of three, a brother and a sister, but I only have one child. So I have a lot of questions for you.

B (12:23)

Yes. And I have three girls and.

D (12:25)

Oh wow, all girls.

B (12:27)

Whereas I only had a brother. So I know kind of gender plays into a lot of sibling dynamics as well, based on what you have so well synthesized for us in your book, Family Dynamic. So to get into what you've learned about sibling dynamics, let's start with one of the how one of the reasons you're a journalist today and still a working journalist is because of your older brother and how he kind of envisioned it for you, even though your parents maybe didn't.

D (12:56)

I think I was 14 years old and I was, I remember I was reading on my bed and my brother, who's six years older, had come home from college and he was asking me if I had joined the high school newspaper. And I said no because it had folded. And then he kind of stood in the doorway of my room and ranted at me about the decline of democracy and this apathetic student body and, you know, urged me to single handedly reinvigorate the high school newspaper. And I, he kind of bullied me into doing it actually. And but he was, he knew me well enough to know it was exactly the right thing for me to be doing. I did a lot of other things in high school, but it wasn't until I started restarting the newspaper that I felt keenly that that was exactly what I was supposed to be doing. And I don't think I wanted to be a journalist at that point. I wanted to write fiction. I had all kinds of ideas really suited me. And he just, you know, he knew me well enough to know that would be the right thing for me to do. And also, I think if my parents had told me to start a high school newspaper, which by the way, they never would have. They just weren't those kinds of parents. I think frankly, they weren't paying that close attention, you know, I think I would have rolled my eyes, you know. So I think sibling advice can be really powerful and heard in a way that especially for adolescents, parental advice is often not heard.

B (14:23)

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

C (14:29)

Have you ever been shopping online? Arguably the easiest form of shopping, and yet the barrier between you buying the thing and not buying the thing was the fact that your card was in another room and you couldn't be bothered to go get it. I am definitely guilty of that. But you might have seen a purple button at checkout with the word shop sticking out amongst all the other payment options. That's Shopify's shop pay. And there's a reason so many businesses sell with it. Shopify doesn't just make the buying experience better for customers. They're also the experts in helping small businesses grow big and complete sales. Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Tackle all the important tasks in one place. From inventory to payments to analytics and more. With 99.99% uptime and the best converting checkout on the planet, you'll never miss a sale again. Only with Shopify. Stop seeing carts going abandoned and turn those sales into sales. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.comfore35 go to shopify.comfore35 shopify.comfore35 you know, it's starting to get cooler even here in Los Angeles. And cooler days really do call for layers that last. And quince has become my go to for quality Essentials that just feel cozy, look refined and won't blow your budget. My favorite go to fall sweater from Quince is the organic cotton cropped cable crew sweater. It's just like the perfect versatile clothing item. I love it. I wear it all the time and it's not too warm, but it's like just the right weight. It's, it's great. They also have amazing 50 Mongolian cashmere premium denim that fits like a dream and luxe outerwear you'll wear year after year. These are really the pieces that'll turn into your fall uniform. I'm also eyeing their wool coats lately. I don't know if you've seen them, Elise, but they look really designer level. But they cost a fraction of the price and the quality is honestly just as good, if not better. And that's because Quint's partners directly with top tier ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. And they deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. To find your fall staples at quints, go to Quince.com Forever35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. And they're now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Forever35 could you talk a little bit just about how this interest in family dynamics and siblings was also sort of germinating when you became sort of fascinated by the family dynamics of one of your college friends?

D (17:36)

I mean, I would say I was always interested in family dynamics because I spent a lot of time as a kid spending a week or two at a time at family, friends, homes because my parents traveled a lot. But in college, you know, she's still my dear friend, dearest friend. Anya Epstein. Her father was the head of the creative writing department at BU and her grandfather had been one of the writers of Casablanca. They were like this very literary family and her father used to read Dickens to her in bed and take her to the theater. And you they had guests like John Updike and Doris Lessing, people I read in high school and revered for better or for worse, coming for dinner parties at their home. And I just always wondered whether having that kind of background was a blessing and the thing that gave her the boost to believe she could be a writer. She's an incredibly talented writer, mostly for television right now, but also A screenwriter, or whether it was a burden, you know, to have all of those expectations over you. And this. This insistence on excellence, which had really never been a huge part of my upbringing, to tell you the truth.

B (18:50)

Yeah. So it wasn't just this family. This family was kind of the catalyst. But you met so many families. Maybe just since we're just getting started, you can just pick out one that really sticks out to you in terms of what you learned about excellence and any through lines there.

D (19:04)

I think one of the through lines that I saw through all of the families was that the parents themselves were people who had done something extraordinary. They weren't necessarily famous, they hadn't necessarily done something of note, but they had often built lives for themselves that were much more stable and cultured and, let's say, even affluent than the ones from which they had come. You know, Lauren Groff, the novelist, and her sister Sarah True, who's an Olympic triathlon athlete, and her brother, Adam Groff, who's a serial, very successful healthcare entrepreneur. Their parents, you know, their father had actually been so poor growing up that he was in an orphanage at one point. And their mother had also come from quite a hardscrabble background and with a pretty violent father who, well, at least was prone to violence when he drank. And they both were scholarship kids at Franklin and Marshall. And I think there was. You know, when you have parents who have overcome something difficult, I think it both narratively teaches you that, you know, you can overcome challenging circumstances and excel, and I think it also inspires you. So it's. It's both the. The reaffirming of this idea that anything is possible if you put your mind to it. But it's also, you know, you want to live up to what they themselves have done and what they have shown in their own lives. And, you know, the Bronte family runs throughout the book. I was always obsessed with the Brontes. And people think of the Brontes as being incredibly, incredibly, you know, the consummate English family. But in fact, they were the child of an Irish immigrant. And he himself, his own story was extraordinary. He grew up, you know, the. The mythology at least that he was a, you know, a dirt floor kind of child of farmer, tenant farmer, and ended up getting a scholarship to Cambridge. And that kind of class leap was really unheard of for people of his low income in Ireland at the time. So he himself had a pretty extraordinary story before he even gave birth to the Bronte sisters.

B (21:11)

So this is the parents, of course, but there's this great line in Your book about how parents do, or parents can dote, but siblings see you dispassionately. What does that kind of unlock for us in terms of our understanding about siblings?

D (21:27)

I think that siblings really do see each other in this very sophisticated and deeply analytical way. And the advice that they give you is going to be more dispassionate than the advice maybe that you're going to get from your parents. Parents who have an idealized version of you or who have their. You know, the other thing about parents, by the way, is that they're only operating within their framework, which is outdated by the time they're really in a position to give anybody career advice.

B (21:54)

And so, yes, I'm reminded of this by my teen constantly. She's like, that doesn't apply.

D (22:00)

Well, it's really funny that you say that because Julia Leonard, who is a character in the book, she's a. She does a lot of developmental work on what motivates children. She has also done research that finds that kids want to get advice from people who both know them well, but also deeply understand their circumstances. And when you think about it, when you think about the anthropology of a high school, you know, it's so elaborate. It's so complicated. When kids say to their parents, you just don't understand. I actually think they don't understand. They can't possibly understand why you audition for the this. Because that girl knows that you already. You know, it's. They'll never get it, but your siblings get it. They understand. And I think they can be really helpful and strategic. And I just saw that in the families that I wrote about, there was a lot of professional guidance and encouragement that the siblings got from each other. And really specific. Like the parents might have set a tone, a tone of we're a social justice family, or we're an artsy family, or we believe in creativity, or we believe in being terrific athletes or musicians. But it came to the logistics. How do you get from point A to point B? I think that siblings are often better at that than parents are.

C (23:21)

Can we talk a little bit about kind of the roles that siblings often find themselves in? You know, I mentioned that I'm the oldest of three. Elisa's the. Is the oldest of two. And we both had, like, very specific roles within our families. You know, I was the smart one, quote unquote. But like, my brother and sister are also very smart. It's just that was kind of the. The role that I was getting to. Yeah, I was typecast. Yes. And my sister was the Athletic one. Meanwhile, I love sports too, you know, and so it's just how do we. So as parents, and I guess I'm asking this not so much for myself because again, I only have one child, but for the parents of multiple children out there, how do we kind of, is there a way to avoid this typecasting? Should we even try to avoid this typecasting? Are there benefits to this kind of typecasting?

D (24:19)

I mean, you know, evolutionary biologists would say that like niche finding is helpful because it creates less conflict when everybody knows what they're going for. And there is some research that suggests that kids do consciously seek out niche. So it's not a coincidence that your parents thought you were the most academic one. Very often the oldest child does have the highest iq. I hate to sort of generalize. And of course there are always exceptions. She says, as the daughter, the youngest of three. But the oldest child is the only child who is ever the only child in your family.

B (24:55)

Yes.

D (24:56)

And so this is one of the reasons that we know that those first months are so crucial is because you see this gap. I mean, you know, only children who, they have all this enrichment poured into them from their parents in a single minded focus. And then there's also good research that suggests that there's something beneficial about teaching younger siblings that it consolidates information and knowledge in a way that is very helpful. So what happens often is the oldest child is designated the academic one and then the younger children, like your younger sister, they're like, well, what am I going to do? And they throw themselves into sports because that is the venue that is open to them. And there's a lot of research that suggests that younger children are overrepresented in sports, you know, do better in sports where even their older siblings are competing. I think they throw, I mean the idea is that they throw more energy into that because there's just less of a competition for that position. I, there's also research that shows that even knowing that oldest children tend to have the highest IQ in the family, even when they don't, parents tend to think the oldest child does have the highest iq. Why? Because they're the oldest. So they always do seem to be the farthest along and parents think they can correct for that age discrepancy.

B (26:21)

Right?

C (26:22)

Yeah, right.

D (26:22)

A lot of it's just age, but they, they, they can't quite remember what that 7 year old was like when she too was a 4 year old. And so, and there is research that shows that when parents kind of make those arbitrary Assessments. It's reflected in the kinds of choices the kids make and the way that they do in school and the kinds of extracurriculars they choose. So I think the first step to all parenting is self awareness and just checking in with yourself, you know, and being honest with yourself and not taking for granted whatever your assumptions are. Even if you are going to think that your oldest child is the most academic because you can't shake that notion, are there ways that you can make a conscious point of encouraging younger children to pursue more academic extracurriculars? Or, I mean, something as subtle as, you know, there's. I don't know, there are some families where they do math games at the table. You know, who do you look at, you know, for the answer first? How do you. What are kids picking up on parenting advice should come with a warning, which is, don't try this at home. The idea being that it's very hard, you know, if we want our kids to change, we want our kids to change all the time. We want them to be more something, right? We want them to be grittier, we want them to be harder working, we want them to be more conscientious. At least many parents do. But like, if you think it's hard to change your kid, it's really hard to change yourself, right? So there are things I think that parents can do to try to be more egalitarian among their children, but it's also to just, to some degree, it's very hard to shake some of our habits and some of the ways we talk to our kids. It's just all you can do is try to be more conscious.

B (27:59)

We have talked about oldest children, we have talked about youngest children, but because they are kind of going extinct, we have ignored the middle child even in our questions. So what did you learn about them?

D (28:12)

I mean, in a way. So the one thing I can say about sibling, about birth order is that the oldest child tends to have the highest iq. We see younger kids overrepresented in sports. There actually is not a lot of convincing research to suggest that birth order predicts all that much else about who a kid is going to be. And one of the reasons you know this, by the way, is because sometimes you'll talk to somebody who's a middle child and they'll say, well, you know, I'm the typical middle child. I'm the peacemaker, right? And then other times they'll say, oh, you know me, I'm the typical middle child. You know, I'm the one who was forgotten. And Bitter. I mean, it's just even conversationally, people really do tend to explain their personality via their birth order. But the best research on birth order finds that there are not consistent personality traits based on birth order. You know, what really affects families and how siblings outcomes differ is not so much birth order as the economics of the family. Right. Like, yes, where are you in the musical chairs of your family's finances? When it's time to go to college, when it's time to get private ballet lessons, when it's time to need a tutor, you see really big discrepancies in kids outcomes from the same family. It's usually either about some innate talent or it is about which exists and is real and is unfair, you know, but it can also just be about real economic differences in the family at different points in time. I wish I had a great answer for you about middle children, but I don't think there is any consistent, really good research on how they differ from other siblings.

B (29:52)

No. And it's such a good reminder too that like our systems have effects on families, you know, yeah, they, they have.

D (29:58)

Effects on families and frankly, economic systems have much more effect on families than parenting does. I mean, parenting operates within an economic structure. Right. Like there's only so much a parent can do if their child has no reason to believe that they're gonna ever be able to afford to go to college or they don't know anybody in their world who has pursued the kind of career that they themselves dream of. You know, you get lucky with an extraordinary teacher or particularly good school system. But I do think that sometimes when we put the emphasis on parenting, we forget how much of what happens in children's lives, even in high income families. You know, you see the difference in the high net worth families whose kids have a dramatic edge over the merely upper middle class income kids. You know, many, many people want their kid to go to Harvard. And it's just a fact of life that for very high net worth individuals it's a lot, lot easier for those kids. I mean, this is the re, this is what the research has shown in recent years.

B (30:55)

Yeah.

C (30:56)

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

B (31:03)

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C (31:21)

Lives for sure.

B (31:23)

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C (32:20)

Plus@1Peloton.Com you know that moment when you have to either get your kids dinner ready or pack their lunch and you're just staring into the fridge and there's like two grapes.

B (32:37)

Yep, this happens a lot in my house.

C (32:41)

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B (33:44)

Ah, yay.

C (33:46)

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D (35:05)

Well, one thing that I wish I had done, I don't know how young your kids still are. Mine are now 19. They're in college. But one thing I wish I had done that I think I really could have done is taken counsel from research that has found that when parents intervene in something that young children are trying to do, like solve a puzzle, it's just incredibly demotivating. And that in general, this is also research from Julia Leonard that in general, parents jump in too quickly to try to solve a problem. And we are all in a rush, but that's only part of it. We also hate to see our kids struggle and fail. We also are so eager to be present for our children that we want to jump in and show that we're in it with them. But if anything, I think that I would have done much better to be. Be a little bit, you know, more laid back in the sense that I waited, I paused. I didn't jump in so quickly to try to solve someone's anxiety about where his missing magic the gathering cards were, you know, or to help him tie his karate, you know, Gi. I think that, I mean, just Lauren Groff's mom, the Groff's mom, Janine. I love this tiny detail on the bottom book. She had plastic cups on the lower cabinets and a step stool by the sink so that anytime her kids wanted to, her grandchildren rather wanted to get something to drink. They could help themselves at a very young age. It's such a small thing, but I love the autonomy that encouraged and I think in general, like, the struggle to let your kids struggle is real. And I think that letting your kid work it out. So that's one small thing I would say that, you know, can start really young and, you know, it trickles with older kids into not being enmeshed in their achievements. You know, there's a director named Diane Paulus who's featured in the book. Her other. Her sister. One of her sisters is a concert harpist at an orchestra in Mexico. Her brother was one of the founders and creators of New York. One very influential family. Diane Paulus did Jagged Little Pill. I mean, she's just Pippin. She's kind of a legend. But her mother, who was also an overcomer, a Japanese immigrant who left Tokyo an orphan following the war. She always said that her mom would watch her during piano recitals or watch her during ballet recitals. She danced with the American Ballet Theater at a very young age. That her mother had a way of watching without desire. In other words, she was there for her. She was present. I think it's great for parents to be present, but it was always clear that whatever was happening on stage was between Diane the choreographer and the audience and not Diane and her mother. And I think parents know when they're on the sidelines of a soccer game and they have crossed over into something that's more about what they need than what the kid needs. And I think I thought a lot about Diane Paulus mother myself when I was on the sidelines or, you know, Marilyn Holifield told me that her mom used to watch her play piano and would sit. I love this advice. She would sit in the living room when Marilyn played and just enjoy it. But she never critiqued it. She never said, oh, I think maybe you're a little bit too fast in that. Or, I mean, for me, my son plays piano. I played piano. Until I heard that story. I hadn't realized what a waste of a relationship it was for me to feel that I needed to chime in and tell, he has a piano teacher. What am I doing doing anything other than enjoying my son's piano playing? So I think, you know, it's. It's. I think I went into this book thinking I was gonna find stories about. We had an accounting at the end of every day. And if she could tell me that she had practiced for an hour, then she got a this or, you know, I was looking for these really prescriptive stories. And instead, what I realized is that what parents can do is expose their children as much as they can to a lot of possibilities that might strike their passion. But once they have identified something that interests them, get out of the way, you know, let it be theirs. Don't try to solve the puzzle. Don't try to give the critique. Let the coach coach and you parent. You know, a lot of the parents, I felt like they found ways to outsource discipline. You know, they found great coaches or great piano teachers, or they had a neighbor whom, you know, they all really admired. But I think it's great when families can outsour discipline and make the home life a really safe, loving space with a lot of room for creativity and exploration.

C (39:56)

I love that.

B (39:58)

Yeah. And it makes me wonder whether my kids have deliberately chosen activities that I didn't do. Sports I don't play, instruments that I don't play, you know, are pursuits. Their pursuits are so different than mine. Probably because they know I would be super annoying if they decided to play piano.

D (40:15)

You know, I can't imagine that's true, Elise.

B (40:18)

It's so funny because they choose these sports that I know nothing about, and they're. The two of them are dancers. I never dance. I'm like the most uncoordinated person on the planet. But it's great because when I go to a recital, I'm like, all of it's great. You know, I have no comments.

D (40:33)

I can't, I can't judge this. I love that. I mean, it's so funny because I always feel like it's great to have at least one parent at the game who does not care, you know, I mean, I, I, you know, my friend, we have good friends, and the dad was the coach, he kind of cared. But the wife, you know, we were always just talking and I'd be like, oh, my God, Aiden just scored a goal. And she'd be like, oh, he did great. Good for you, Aiden. But anyway, and I just thought that was like the healthiest thing and probably so good for Aiden too, you know?

B (41:04)

Yeah. I'm constantly learning from their activities because I'm like, oh, that is the rule for this sport.

D (41:09)

Okay, Exactly. But you're never gonna be invested in it the way you would if you yourself had played that sport. And yeah, I think that is a relief for everybody involved. If you want your child to be a world class tennis player, the parent has to be involved. Like, we're talking, but these are, you know, like, obviously, you know, Richard Williams, you know, he did make those girls, those women, into the incredible superstars that they were. So this is. Even though it was a book that was really about outliers, it was about really extraordinary families and people who had done extraordinary things. I think most parents don't need their kids to be Serena and Venus Williams. They just want them to have the satisfaction of mastery and feeling passionate about something that they love and to see that the more work they put in, the better the results. Right. Like, that's what we all want to see.

C (42:01)

And also, I don't want to be Richard Williams. Like, that seems exhausting.

D (42:05)

Exhausting. Right. I agree. I could not agree more.

C (42:09)

Yeah.

B (42:09)

And to that point, sue, before we let you go, one of the sort of most liberating or encouraging takeaways, I think, from the whole of your book, is that parenting isn't even that influential on the kids in the scheme of things. Right. Can you just drive home that point? Because I found it really liberating. Like, okay, great, I can't mess them up too much. But you also aren't the only influence on your kids.

C (42:34)

Of course.

D (42:34)

Yeah. I think that is a really important takeaway for parents because I think a lot of bad parenting happens, speaking for a friend, when you feel bad that you can't fix a situation or that it's not going the way you want it to go, and then you kind of act out because you're feeling frustrated, you know? But the truth is that when it comes to parenting and when it comes to sort of personality development and habits and choices, when you think about how much time your children spend consuming media, in the company of teachers, in the company of friends, compared to how much time they spend with you, especially as they get older.

C (43:12)

Right.

D (43:13)

This just supports what the research shows, which is that parental effects are much smaller than we think they are. They matter for whether a kid is going to go to college or not. And as we've already discussed, that's that, at least traditionally, that has been hugely influential on how someone fares economically. But in terms of the kind of personality they develop, whether they're conscientious or not, whether they're, you know, empathetic or not, there's some portion of that that is going to be genetic, and there's some portion of that that is going to be the environment around them. You know, we call nurture. But nurture is not just parenting. It's the entire environment. It's the neighborhood, it's the political environment, it's the weather they grow up in. It's the millions of tiny idiosyncratic things that happen to them every day that make them a new person, that then interacts in the millions of new idiosyncratic things that are happening the next day. So parenting matters. It matters how a kid feels in their home. It matters how the kids feel about Their parents. But it's not all determining the way I think that we really kind of think that it is.

B (44:17)

Okay, that's a great note to end on.

C (44:20)

Yes. I will take that with me as I. My son is. Relax, ladies.

D (44:24)

So I have.

C (44:24)

I have. I have a long. I have a long way to go.

B (44:28)

Sue. Where can folks find you?

D (44:31)

I am on Instagram Sue Dominus. And I am on Facebook at Susan Dominus. And I am on Twitter @SUSANDOMINOUS. Although I'm so old that I am mostly on Facebook and I write for the New York Times.

C (44:47)

Thank you so much. This is such a fascinating conversation.

B (44:50)

Thank you so much for coming on.

D (44:52)

Truly my pleasure. I'm so thrilled to be here. I really am.

B (44:58)

Thank you to Sue Dominus. Thank you. Thank you again. That book is called the Family Dynamic. Y' all should pick it up. It's also beautiful. The COVID is awesome. I mean, it would be just to have on your shelf. But it is time for us to move into the intention zone. Dor, how did you do with your intention last week? And what is your next one?

C (45:18)

I gotta say, I'm doing well. I also got these checklists for Henry, like, morning and evening routines, and he's gotten in very into, like, checking them off. We'll link to those in the show notes because they're like. It's a. It's a checklist with, like, a thing that you move over. And he finds it very satisfying. Like, you have. There's like a little click.

D (45:43)

Oh, nice.

C (45:44)

And they're just up on the fridge. So. Yeah. So really trying to, you know, work on that executive function for all of us. And this week, my intention is to start tackling his room. We, as alluded to before, we have, like, a weirdly packed weekend. So I don't know how much I'm going to be able to actually get done, but I hope to at least get started on it, because I think that'll be, like, the next frontier. How about you? I mean, I know you said you were going to digitize tapes last week, and it sounds like you have been.

B (46:19)

Doing that, that I've gotten through one batch. I have some key items to come that still need to be dropped off at my place, but it's great. It's an awesome service. I feel good about not shipping off these old VHS and minidvs and CDs somewhere, you know, in the ether. I don't know where. Like Legacy Box. And some of these companies that digitize your memories are based.

C (46:43)

I will just say Legacy Box was a sponsor of this show at one point, and I think they actually did a really good job. Job. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think there is always the risk when you send something off. They can be the best company in the entire world and someone somewhere, I'm sure has had something lost. So I. I hear you. If you want, like, the ironclad guarantee that something is not going to get.

B (47:10)

Lost, I'm driving it to a place I just.

D (47:12)

Yeah, you're driving.

B (47:13)

Traumatized by losing so much already that I was totally.

C (47:16)

I get it. Yeah, of course. Course.

B (47:17)

I need to do this for my peace of mind, but I'm so. I'm moving along on that intention. My intention for next week is I just finished the Gwyneth Paltrow book, which I'll talk about on our pop culture episode for our Patreon subscribers. But it's a, you know, it's a biography. It was a really blazingly fast read. I read that after reading other nonfiction like Sue's book, and so I just want to kind of of disappear into a fictional tale. So my intention is to read fiction, to read a novel again and get that back into my, I guess, my repertoire.

C (47:55)

Nice. I love that. All right, well, this is the time of the month where we thank our Patreon supporters at the suite and spa levels.

B (48:08)

Thank you to Christy, Heather Whaley, Caitlyn H. Katie Ashley Taylor, Theresa Anderson, Michelle Maya, Barbara C. Amy, Amy Schnitzer, Megan Helen De Mooy, Shelley Lee, Kim Beagler, Sarah Boozy, Allison Cohen, Susan Burseth, Fran Kelsey Wolf Denay, Laura Eddy, Jadelle Apdi, Valerie Bruno, Julie Daniel E. Jackson, Amy Maseko, Liz Rain, jdk, Hannah M, Julia P, Matty o', Day, Marissa, Sarah Bell, Maria Diana, Coco Bean, Laura Haddon, Josie H. Nikki Bossert, Juliana Duff, Chelsea Torres, Tiffany G, Emily McIntyre, Stephanie Germana, Olivia Fahey, Elizabeth A, Christine Bassis, Jessica Gale, Zulima Lundy, Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Golds and T. Katherine Ellingson, Kara Brugman, Sarah H. Sarah Egan, Jess Coleman, Jennifer Olson, Jennifer hs, Eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brianne Macy, Elizabeth Holland, Karen Perelman, Katie Jordan, Sarah M. Kate M. Josie Alquist, Tara Todd, Elizabeth Cleary, and. And Monica. Thank you to all of you. Thank you so much.

C (49:12)

Thank you for reading all the names, Elise. Appreciate that. And I will just say that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dory Shafrier and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners, acast. And we'll talk to you soon. Take care.

B (49:29)

Okay, bye Bye. Sometimes the best reminder that things will be all right is hearing a fresh perspective from experts who've seen it all and have the wisdom to prove it. Like I learned about Extreme Anchors in negotiation from the FBI negotiator Chris Voss's class on Masterclass and it really changed my life. I think about it all the time. And if you're not into that, you can also learn how to eat more ethically and sustainably. With Michael Pollan, you can build habits that stick with atomic habits, author James Clear and take care of your gut, brain, skin and more with science based tips from leading experts. The classes really make a difference. Three out of four surveyed members feel inspired every time they watch Masterclass. I'm definitely in that majority. And with Masterclass you can learn from the best to become your best. With plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, you get unlimited access to more than 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. With Masterclass, you get thousands of bite sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules.

D (50:35)

Schedules.

B (50:36)

Right now our listeners get an additional 15 off any annual membership@masterclass.com forever35 that's 15% off@masterclass.com forever35 masterclass.com forever35.

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