Episode 373: Connect, Don’t Correct Your Body with Cadence Dubus

Summary

Forever35 – Episode 373: "Connect, Don’t Correct Your Body with Cadence Dubus"

October 13, 2025 – Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu; Guest: Cadence Dubus

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Overview

In this episode, Doree and Elise are joined by Cadence Dubus—a movement coach, founder of Brooklyn Strength, and expert on connecting with our bodies in compassionate, non-prescriptive ways. Together, they explore shifting attitudes on fitness, body acceptance, the resurgence of skinniness as a cultural norm, and the practicalities and philosophies of movement at midlife. The discussion is rich with humor and practical tips, grounded in Cadence’s innovative approach to self-care and bodily awareness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Updates, Product Recommendations, and Household Rituals

• Shampoo Recs: Elise raves about Hasuo Herbal Essential Shampoo (a K-beauty find) for thick and oily-prone hair, and unexpectedly loves it for her own finer hair too (03:33).
  • "My hair feels like not only cleaner, but lighter and thicker too at the same time." – Elise (04:59)
• Conditioner Talk: Doree shares her ongoing satisfaction with Prose personalized conditioner, especially for fine, long hair (05:55).
• Organization Real Talk: The hosts candidly discuss the realities and motivations around decluttering, emphasizing it as a mental health and executive function support, not a moral good (08:35).
  • "It's not a moral failing. It's just a practical concern more than anything." – Elise (09:25)
• Guest Intro: Cadence Dubus is introduced, and her broader approach to movement, beyond just "personal training," is highlighted (11:00).

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2. Cadence Dubus: Approaching Movement as Connection, Not Correction

Cadence’s Self-Care Practice

• Dog Walks for Mindfulness (17:34)
  • Daily walks with her dogs, especially the "do whatever you want dog day," are vital for presence and joy.
  • "They're always thrilled to be outside... just enjoying this moment and I can do that with them and let them guide me." – Cadence (17:46)

Her Journey to Fitness Coaching

• Began as a dancer-turned-Pilates instructor, originally for practical reasons (income as a dancer in NYC).
• Emphasizes functional anatomy and a curiosity for how bodies really work.
  • "We're constantly fed, especially as women, that... everything is constantly going downhill. Everything's terrible and negative. It's very hard to learn to connect to your body, listen to your body, care about your body." – Cadence (21:58)

What Clients Really Want

• Many arrive burned out on fitness, carrying history of restrictive habits or punishing exercise (23:15).
• The goal: Build a sustainable, respectful movement practice that fits one's life, not a metric- or punishment-driven hamster wheel.
  • "Please do not make me go to Orange Theory. How do I do this in a way that aligns with my values and doesn't feel like self-harm?" – Cadence (23:23)
• Distinguishes her intake process: Focus on the personal story of a client's body, not just physical goals—injuries, traumas, life context—so the practice can be responsive and individualized (24:46).

Moving Away from “Goals”

• Critiques the culture of biometric and gamified self-improvement—a million tracking devices but little actual body trust (26:36).
  • "It's like a sci-fi movie where we're outsourcing our complete awareness of our bodies to our phone." – Cadence (27:00)
• Instead, she wants to help clients tune in to their own bodily signals and inherent wisdom.

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3. Practical Tips for Bodily Connection

Strengthening Awareness

• Cadence’s Top Practical Tip:

  • "Literally notice when you have to go pee, and go pee right then. It's a really low bar... You're practicing telling your body that your most basic needs are important." – Cadence (32:45)

• Explains that respecting physical urges—even "mundane" ones—quickly broadens to honoring hunger, fatigue, emotional stress, and even boundaries in relationships.

• "If I'm practicing pushing aside my most basic bodily need, I'm practicing telling my body that my most basic needs are not important." – Cadence (34:40)

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4. Navigating Body Image, Skinniness, and Ozempic Culture

On Cultural Regression

• Cadence notes the recent cultural swing back towards skinniness/"heroin chic" and rise in GLP-1 (like Ozempic) use (36:50).
  • "We will move through this ultra skinny moment and we will come out on the other side... It all just goes back and forth." – Cadence (36:50)
• She shares patient advocacy advice for clients feeling pressured by doctors to pursue GLP-1s for weight loss—encourages them to ask, “If I were thin, what would you recommend?” (38:07).
• Describes how clients can experience muscle loss and dissociation from their bodies with rapid, medically-driven weight loss:
  • "There is a dissociation happening if you are medically losing weight that is similar to the dissociation that happens when people are focusing their entire lives on losing weight." – Cadence (42:36)
• Stresses a non-judgmental stance, centering the client's lived reality, and advocating for bodily connection above external manipulation.

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5. Movement, Bone Density, and Sustainable Fitness at Midlife

How to Start & Sustain

• For anyone wanting to improve strength or bone density (perimenopause/menopause especially), start by asking what you already do, what you enjoy, and what you’re curious about (44:05).
  • "The first place for anyone to start is: What did they already do? What are they curious about? What do they want from this?" – Cadence (44:05)
• Advises patience and playfulness:
  • If you hate all exercise, start with any movement that feels interesting—rock climbing, roller-skating, etc.—and follow consistency over time (46:09).
  • Offers a 10-year client story: Someone who once despised exercise now regularly strength trains—emphasizing how long, organic progress can be (48:00).
    • "Give yourself time to go on a journey and trust that it's worth it... When we look at our own physical practice, we're like, 'Oh, I tried running once and I was terrible at it. I'm never ever doing it again.'" – Cadence (49:41)
• Life circumstances change, pregnancy, injury—so should your movement practices (49:20).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Bodily Tracking Devices:
  "My thing told me I hardly slept, so I guess I really should be careful today... oh my god, too much data!" – Cadence (27:00)
• On Everyday Movement:
  "I'm not about to start recreating a car because I don't know how a car works... if you know how a car works, you're like, oh, I shouldn't be rebuilding this; this car actually is great." – Cadence (21:57)
• On Compassion for Change:
  "When we talk about our bodies and our fitness practices, we're really used to getting this everyday something... which really does not suit how life works and it also doesn't suit how our actual bodies work." – Cadence (49:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 03:33 - 06:10 | Elise & Doree talk new shampoo discoveries and haircare preferences | | 08:29 - 10:10 | Honest conversation on clutter, organization, and mental health | | 17:07 - 20:16 | Cadence shares her personal journey, origins, and unique approach to fitness | | 23:15 - 24:46 | The real concerns women have about fitness after burnout | | 26:36 - 29:51 | Danger of biometric devices, moving away from hyper-focus on “goals” | | 32:45 - 34:46 | Practical self-connection—pee when you have to pee! | | 36:50 - 43:04 | Pressure of skinniness, Ozempic, cultural cycles, and advocating with doctors | | 44:05 - 50:21 | Steps for building and sustaining a movement/strength practice as you age | | 50:52 - 52:14 | Where to find Cadence, her website and programs |

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Where to Find Cadence Dubus

• Website: brooklynstrength.com
• Instagram: @brooklynstrength
• Substack: After Class
• Podcast: Busybody

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Episode Tone & Takeaway

The episode offers a warm, wise, and practical perspective on caring for the body without cruelty or perfectionism. Cadence and the hosts emphasize curiosity, adaptability, and compassion, encouraging listeners to move away from obsessive self-improvement culture—towards connection with oneself as a lifelong practice, not a product.

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Summary by Forever35 Podcast Summarizer

Transcript

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrir]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrir.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu, and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrir]

And we have an amazing guest today.

[Elise Hu]

Dory really connected with today's guest.

[Dory Shafrir]

I really did. I really, like felt everything that she was talking about. Her name is Cadence Debuss. She's technically a personal trainer, but I feel like that doesn't totally encompass her whole thing. She also has a podcast. She's a newsletter. She is a very like, interesting thinker about bodies and exercise.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I feel like she described herself as a movement coach or, or something like that. Like, not specifically a personal trainer.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes, totally. We'll be talking to her a little later in the episode. But she's a. She's a really great guest.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Before we get to that, I teased on last week's Friday Casual chat that I'm very excited about a new shampoo that I am using courtesy of our Korean hairstylist, Jessie, who cuts the hair and styles the hair of all five family members, including Rob.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, wow. Wow.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Yeah, she cuts Rob because Rob's hair is great and full, but it grows outward when it gets too long. So his hair does what I call a Steve Bruling, if you know John C. Reilly's character, Steve Brule, like the mad scientist kind of guy. Anyway, so every once in a while, when it gets like a little bit too long, and when. And when I say every once in a while, I mean approximately three to three and a half weeks, I'm like, it's time. It's time to go to Jessie. So Jesse was fielding a complaint from Ava, my daughter with the thickest hair. She has crazy thick hair. We realized this when she was three or four years old. She was born with a thick head of hair. It's only become more abundant and it gets to be difficult to tame. And then there's so much of it that her scalp actually gets kind of greasy underneath the layers of hair. And then her hair doesn't feel light. You know, it feel. It kind of feels like there's shampoo or product residue in it, even though there's not. So she would wash her hair and it would still feel like there was residue in it. So Jesse was like, you need to use this Korean shampoo that is available on Amazon and other like, K beauty outposts online. And it's called Hasuo H A S U O Herbal Essential Shampoo. And Jesse uses it for herself. And it's a little bit drying, so you're not supposed to use it every day. She says to use it like every other day at most, but especially in areas where you feel like your scalp is kind of oily. So Ava started using it and it's been transformative for her. So now her hair is like, lighter and bouncier and shinier, and it's not like clumping in the areas that it was greasy. But. But I decided to try it for myself on my much thinner, much finer hair. And I have also seen amazing results. Like, wow. I have felt like, wow.

[Dory Shafrir]

I was not expecting that.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I know. I was really surprised too. But my hair feels like not only cleaner, but lighter and thicker too at the same time. And I also don't use it every day and usually, like, shampoos don't affect me that much. You know, I don't. I'm not somebody who, like, experiments with a lot of shampoo. I was using the way products before just because Ouai was sort of like the end product. But then I also like, you know, the Aussie stuff from the drugstore. I just have never been a big shampoo Experimenter. But after Ava actually had this visible problem with her scalp feeling oily and then her hair never feeling clean, we started using this hospital stuff, and we both love it. It's been. I haven't even mentioned this yet because it's only been like, four or six weeks. Like, somewhere between the last four to six weeks that we've been experimenting with it. So I wanted to give it a little bit more time, but now I can. I can confidently say very pleased with it. This is not a sponsored post.

[Dory Shafrir]

Okay. I was just gonna say I still use our on again, off again sponsor pros.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. And. And you've really liked that. I liked my. I have personalized. They customize.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Potions. Right. Shampoo, conditioner, all sorts of other things for your hair. And it. It just wasn't much, so it didn't last me very long.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, I hear that. Well, you know, for the first time, I feel like I'm using the appropriate amount of conditioner. And it's the first real conditioner that I feel like, hasn't made my hair, like, greasy and heavy. It's just, like, nourished it. So. Yeah, so that has been. Because my hair is getting long and, like, it needs to be conditioned.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

But it's also pretty fine, so I can't have anything that, like, weighs it down too much, makes it look greasy, you know, so. Okay. Good job, Prose.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I also like the way Prose smells.

[Dory Shafrir]

Well, because you can choose your scent, and I don't typically love scented stuff, but I feel like it is. I choose my scent, which I like, and then I also. It's. It's not, like, overly scented, which is. Which is nice. I'm not sure if this discount code still works, but you can try prose.comfore35 and possibly get 50% off your first order.

[Elise Hu]

So maybe it'll work.

[Dory Shafrir]

Again, not an ad, just a sincere endorsement of a. Of again, an on again, off again advertiser.

[Elise Hu]

Dora, how is everything going with your reorganization or organization project?

[Dory Shafrir]

I did the big clean out of Henry's playroom. I sold a bunch of stuff. I gave away a bunch of stuff. I threw out a lot of stuff. And then I moved on to his bedroom, specifically his bookshelves, and again did a real, like, pruning. And that felt really good. And I still have a little bit more I need to do, like, in his room. And then I need to. I would like to move on to the dining room, which is just a sort of, like, repository of papers and junk and stuff. And you Know how like sometimes you have clutter that becomes like part of the scenery?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, yes, I have. I have one of those stacks in my kitchen and I just never bothered to visit it.

[Dory Shafrir]

Right. And like it almost doesn't register to me anymore because I'm so used to it. And I don't like, I'm like, wait, this is bad. You know, it's funny because I feel like when I've talked about this in the past, there, there is this like movement to not like embrace clutter, but to sort of be like non judgmental about clutter. And I don't view it as a value judgment. I view it more. It's like this, all the executive function stuff that I've been talking about, like, it is. I don't feel like it's good for my brain for our house to be so cluttered. Like, it doesn't. It makes me feel sort of blocked. So that's where it's coming from. Not like I, you know, feel morally bad for having.

[Elise Hu]

Right, right.

[Dory Shafrir]

Clutter.

[Elise Hu]

It's not a, it's not a moral failing. Right, exactly.

[Dory Shafrir]

It's not a moral failing.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. You actually just need to get some things out of the way. It's just a practical concern more than.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I just want to, I just want to be clear. Like that's where I'm coming from with it.

[Cadence Debuss]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Because I'm not somebody who has to have like a clean desk, you know, but then some people cannot work unless their desk is pristine. And then I think, oh, I don't even know what that would be like to not have just stuff everywhere on my desk. It seems like did.

[Dory Shafrir]

I did clear off my desk and now there seems to be still be a pile of stuff on here. So I'm like including the executive function handout.

[Cadence Debuss]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Everything comes back around.

[Dory Shafrir]

Exactly. It needs a home.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Dory Shafrir]

So, yeah, so it's, you know, it's a work in progress. My parents are coming. When is this airing? Oh yeah. So they're coming at the end of this week when this airs. And I don't think it's realistic for the whole house to be like decluttered before they come, but I would like for it to be a little bit less cluttered than it has been in the past. I mean, they usually stay in the playroom, so because there's a pull out sofa. So they're familiar with what it has been like. So I think they will be able to see the difference.

[Elise Hu]

The playroom will be ready to welcome your parents.

[Dory Shafrir]

So it will the rest of stuff.

[Elise Hu]

Can be finished incrementally.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes, exactly. Well, should we introduce our guest?

[Elise Hu]

Yes. I'm happy to do it since due to connection issues, I'm not in the full interview. So you'll hear me drop off. And it's not because I just, like, disappeared into outer space. It's because my connection died. So Dory really drives a lot of this interview. I will be back for the intentions I do. But first, I will introduce Cadence Debuss, who comes to her teaching. Like we said, she teaches movement and fitness from her history with modern dance, pilates, strength, neuro repatterning, and yoga. She has worked with a loyal clientele of women in their 70s and 80s, and then she worked with diverse bodies for more than 20 years. And then she founded Brooklyn Strength, where she works with clients wherever they are. So she works with clients virtually and helps with scar tissue injury and recovery, the complexities of pregnancy and birth, the circumstances that really make up our lives and our struggles and celebrations. Ultimately, she works to help you find relief, movement and express the power of your strength. Like we said, she's not just a personal trainer. That would be too limiting of a title for what Cadence does.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. Um, all right, before we get to her, just a reminder that you can Visit our website, forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned here on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com forever35. I think we alluded to our. A conversation we had in our casual chat a little earlier, but we do those casual chats every Friday, and they're. They're just more like freewheeling.

[Elise Hu]

Mm.

[Dory Shafrir]

And then we have our pop culture recommendation episodes every month. And we have our Patreon chat. We have ad free episodes. There's a lot happening on our Patreon.

[Elise Hu]

The Forever35 questionnaire.

[Cadence Debuss]

Oh, yes.

[Dory Shafrir]

In the Forever25 chair, which is super fun. I feel like that's out every Tuesday. Yeah. We have a series of questions that we ask all of our guests. It's like a lightning round of questions. And they're really fun and guests get really, like, they really enjoy it. It's like questions that they've never thought of. You can shop our favorite products at shop my us. Forever35. Sign up for our newsletter at forever35podcast.com newsletter and if you'd like to reach us, you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and we will be right back with Cadence. You know that moment when you have to either get your kids dinner ready or pack their lunch and you're just staring into the fridge and there's like two grapes.

[Elise Hu]

Yep. This happens a lot in my house. Uh huh.

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

Ah, Yay.

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrir]

I am so excited to have you on the show today. Cadence. Welcome to Forever35.

[Cadence Debuss]

Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here.

[Dory Shafrir]

It feels very timely to have you on and I know our listeners also have been they have a lot of questions about these topics as well. So we're excited to get into it. But before we do that, we are going to ask you the question that we ask all of our guests to kick things off, which is what is a self care practice that you have that you can share with our listeners?

[Cadence Debuss]

Mine is maybe unfair because it requires that you have a dog, but okay.

[Dory Shafrir]

I do, I do have a dog. So Great, I'm listening 50% of the way.

[Cadence Debuss]

I really have become attuned to how my daily dog walk, I mean, they get walked more than once a day, but our middle of the day walk is our longest walk. And I have really noticed that that walk is just such an important time for me to clear my head, to be outside, to basically become present. And I, you know, I've had several dogs in my lifetime and always when one passes away before the next one, I have this moment where I don't have that daily need to go outside for an hour, you know, and I am like astonished at the humongous spiraling effect of not having that space. They're always thrilled to be outside and they're always like, in that, like, gratitude of like, it's sunny, it's a beautiful day. No matter what's going on in the news or all the things that are burdening us, I can just kind of notice like, oh, they're literally just enjoying this moment and I can do that with them and literally let them kind of guide me. So that is a self care practice that has become Very important for my sanity. Okay.

[Dory Shafrir]

As a fellow dog owner, I have several follow up questions. One is, do you have a set route or do you do more of like a sniff walk where your dog is just like leading you to wherever?

[Cadence Debuss]

Today is do whatever you want dog day. Which we do. Which we do one time a year on their birthday where they literally are wandering and I'm just making sure they're not going out into traffic or into somebody's house, you know, But I'm like, today is do whatever you want dog day. Otherwise I'm very lucky that I kind of bizarrely live on the beach in Brooklyn, which people often don't realize that New York City is a city that's right on water. And it was my post pandemic move to kind of live where I liked to recreate. I used to drive the dogs down here every week at least once and now I live in a building that's pretty much right on the water. So we walk on the beach every day, which is great.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh my God.

[Cadence Debuss]

It's pretty ridiculous.

[Dory Shafrir]

We should probably transition to fitness because that is why you're here on the show. I'd love to just hear how you kind of initially got into fitness. Like, were you athletic as a kid? How did this, how did this happen?

[Cadence Debuss]

Good question. I. I always tell the story of how I first started in Pilates as being extremely non romantic and that a lot of people get into my field, which primarily I, I teach, you know, I teach bodies how to get stronger and how to feel more connected and how to care for yourself through the mode of like moving your body. I wouldn't call myself a personal trainer and I'd. And I have been teaching so long that to say that I teach like one mode of fitness doesn't really resonate anymore because I have so many strains of things that come into my teaching. So. But I did start with Pilates because I was a dancer in New York City. And if you're a dancer in New York City, you're either going to wait tables or teach fitness or be a nanny. And I was already nanny. And for anyone out there who's nanny, it's very weird. And you're inserted into people's marriages and their home lives and you're like 20 years old and also you're like picking people's children up and you're in charge of their health and well being and you're 20, so you're not so great at your own health and wellbeing. It was very by luck that I had Already had this really incredible anatomy background and been introduced to functional anatomy in that way. I didn't realize that, that you could teach fitness in that way. And so I was inspired immediately. And then that just led me into a zillion, you know, education and different modalities and becoming so curious about how our bodies work and really passionate about teaching people about how our bodies work. Because I think the huge missing link is that we don't get taught, literally, especially as women, how our bodies work on so many levels. And then what we do get is pressure to change our bodies constantly. But if, first of all, if you don't know how your body works, like, I'm not about to start, you know, recreating a car because I don't know how a car works, so that's not going to go well. But also maybe if you know how a car works, you're like, oh, I shouldn't be rebuilding this. This car actually is great. We're just constantly fed, especially as women that, you know, by the time you're 28, everything is going downhill. Everything is constantly going downhill. Everything's terrible and negative. And it's very hard to learn to connect to your body, listen to your body, care about your body. When your first introduction to your own body is that basically it started bad and needs to be changed from there.

[Elise Hu]

Right, Right, exactly. Well, that leads to one of my questions, which is, and I know your clientele is largely virtual these days, but what are women most concerned about when it comes to their fitness or what kinds of questions are you about fitness from your clients these days?

[Cadence Debuss]

I think most of my clientele really comes to me kind of burned out on fitness. And so they usually have a history of like restrictive eating or exercising to punish themselves, as I would really say that most of us do. And at one point or another they've, they did finally stop that pattern. But now they're like in their mid-40s or in their mid-50s. And I also have clients who are in their 70s and 80s even. And then they're like, I do realize I need to move my body in some way. You know, I can tell that I'm getting aches and pains. I don't like what my posture is like or whatever. Or, you know, my doctor says I have to build some bone density. You know, I. Please do not make me go to orange theory. Like, how do I do this in a way that like aligns with my values and doesn't feel like self harm? So that's usually where I come in. And that is really my skill because I really believe that we can learn to create a consistent, what I would call movement practice. Even just to like pull us a little further away from mainstream fitness that ticks all those boxes for you. But isn't going to become this like metric driven, have to be perfectionist kind of misery inducing thing, which also is never going to last unless you just have unbelievable capacity to be miserable.

[Elise Hu]

Which.

[Dory Shafrir]

Which some people do. Yeah, yeah. What are the, what are the questions you ask a new client?

[Cadence Debuss]

I do an intake. Almost like a little personal story about your body. Like tell like literally just tell me the story of your body. How, how is your body today? Because usually people come in because they've had that like little impetus. A doctor said, you know, you gotta do something about bone density or whatever. Or they were like, I really hurt my back on vacation. And that was just such a bummer. I don't wanna experience that. So first we talk about that. First thing. Okay, you know, how is that? How is it now? What's hurting? What's helping? Just giving me a sense of like a framework to start with. But then I wanna just know, like, what is the story of your body? Past injuries, surgeries, obviously those are like big ones to know, but. But it's extremely personal, it's extremely intimate. So I definitely hear about sexual abuse. I definitely hear about just like, you know, accidents, traumatic incidents that were never really addressed. The amount of people that were hurt as children because they, you know, fell out of a tree or you know, fell off their bike and maybe never got validated or never got seen because they have parents that are just like, you're fine. That led to them internalizing that this pain that they felt wasn't real and how that's like played out their lives. I mean, it goes on and on. Just like the stories that we hold on to or the one gym teacher or your grandma that said a thing to you that you've just believed now forever and ever and ever. So I want to hear those because that helps me just start to work with someone in a way that's going to be doable for them and comfortable.

[Dory Shafrir]

And I'm noticing that you don't use the word goals. Is that something that you're trying to sort of like move people away from?

[Cadence Debuss]

Yeah, I think that our current culture is so we're in this like body hacking. Like there's like a thing to attach to your body to read every possible thing. And if anything, I struggle with my clients sometimes coming to, you know, literally saying things like My whatever thing tells me that I, I slept well last night, but I feel really terrible. Or the opposite. I feel rested, but my thing told me I hardly slept, so I guess I really should be careful today or whatever. And I'm just like, oh my God, too much data. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's like a sci fi movie where we're just, we're really outsourcing our complete awareness of our bodies to all these, you know, to our phone being like, you have to walk 300 more steps. And then they're like, oh my God, I have to walk the more steps. So I try to just start to help people tap into their own knowledge, which it almost sounds kind of woo or something to be like, you know, the solution to your own problems. But when it comes to our bodies, like I. Our bodies are really in conversation with us. So especially when I work with people who have pain or recurring injuries, I often, my goal is to really empower them to be guiding our sessions. So for example, this is a very extreme situation. But I had a client once who was really certain that her neck had been damaged and she was really, really scared about it. And it was linked to a lot of just like other stuff in her personal life. But when I would watch her when we were just talking and she was just getting ready for her session and we weren't like doing our session yet, she would be talking with her head moving around and like laughing and her head would go up and down. Like really just basic indicators, you know. I'm not saying that she couldn't have a bulge disc and be doing that or whatever, but the kind of damage that is basically as soon as we would start moving, she would become really rigid and say, oh, I can't, my neck won't, you know, all these things. And I'm not even saying that that was imaginary, but it is just really interesting, you know, I was able to literally just let her know that when you're just talking to me, your neck is moving with what appears to be ease. But then when we start doing other stuff, it seems like it really shifts. Like, what does that feel like for you? Are you noticing that difference? And that was really useful information for her because she had a really strong story that her neck is always painful and it has all this restriction and it had never, no one had ever said that to her that I see your head moving as though your neck doesn't have restrictions. So where does that bring us next? You know, for our work? So I think that because of mainstream fitness, we have this idea that moving your body is a very looks very specific and also that you have to be, you know, quote unquote like healthy in a certain way. But we all have the capacity to move in quite a wide variety in the right environment and circumstance and certainly with the right guidance, which often is ourselves. But if you feel like it's not you, then somebody like me to kind of help you find that self.

[Dory Shafrir]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

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[Elise Hu]

What do you think folks can do at home to sort of improve our connections with our bodies? That is sort of knowing where they are in space, understanding how we feel, and believing ourselves when we feel a certain way? I mean, it sounds like so much of your work is about bodily awareness. What. Let's get practical. What are things that folks can do at home to help improve that?

[Cadence Debuss]

My first thing that I give to people, if they really feel like they struggle with that, is to literally notice when you have to go pee and go pee right then it's a really low bar. Because I think that if you have any kind of job, you probably don't pee when you have to pee, like, 75% of the time. Because we also got taught to do that when we were in school. And we all do the thing where we're, like, finishing an email and you just kind of notice, oh, I have to pee. And then you're just like, whatever, I'll just shoot this email out. And then, oh, somebody just wrote me back. Let me just do that. Yeah, you know, 40 minutes goes by and you had to pee. And, like, because you're an adult, you're not going to pee your pants. But it's such a, like, easy low bar. It doesn't have anything to do with food. It doesn't have anything to do with hunger cues. All these things that people. There's a lot of stress and anxiety around. It's just straight, like, a really simple cue that our body gives us a bunch of times a day that doesn't really have any, like, politics around it. And I think it can also. It very quickly broadens into respecting your bodily comfort, because when you do start doing that and just peeing when you have to pee, you're like, wow, I feel better. I'm focused more. I'm now noticing other cues, like, I'm hungry or I'm thirsty or I'm tired or I'm super stressed. And actually, I'm gonna pause and not write back to that email because I am worried I'm not gonna write in a very nice tone or whatever. You know, I think that, like, those really small, subtle places, like, very quickly, you know, tip the dominoes into other areas of our lives. Because if you are something that I say to my clients as much as I possibly can is what we are practicing regularly. The most things that we are practicing is what we are practicing for our life, for everything. So if I'm practicing pushing aside my most basic bodily need, I'm practicing telling my body that my most basic needs are not. Not important.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Cadence Debuss]

And if I just keep doing that, you can see that ripple out. Now I'm having conversations with people. I have people in my social life that I don't enjoy, that don't make me feel comfortable, but I keep hanging out with them because I have been telling myself for a really long time that the physical cues that my body gives me anxiety around someone, discomfort around someone, is actually not important. And I should ignore that. And it sounds like very grandiose, but I've literally seen this change people's lives where they. I mean, we had a client who quit his whole Wall street job and moved home to be back with his family being literally, basically because he started working out with us, connected to his body, realized how unbelievably stressed and miserable he was all day and was like, you guys, like, you completely changed my life. And I'm. I'm retiring. Goodbye. You know, I mean, I've. I've seen clients make that change for sure.

[Dory Shafrir]

I want to talk a little bit about how skinniness has kind of started permeating the culture again. Like, we sort of seemed like we had this brief moment of, like, body positivity and, you know, really kind of countering fatphobia and. Or body neutrality. That was, you know, that was something that I was sort of striving for. And then we got hit with, like, heroin chic is back and everyone's on Ozempic. And, you know, it just sort of felt like a. To me, it felt like a little bit like a regression in some ways. So I'm curious from your perspective, like, how are you, first of all, how are you kind of dealing with the skinniness, cultural norms with your clients? And then also, like, how have GLP1s changed your, you know, your relationship with your clients with regards to their fitness? Like, how. How do you. How do you navigate that with a client who's on a GLP1?

[Cadence Debuss]

Well, first, I want to say I firmly believe that this bubble will also burst. So I manage my own feelings around it and try to manage anyone else's by just saying, like, we just keep. We. We. You know, if you just look at fashion trends, we swing from minimalist to maximalist. You know, it's like it all just goes back and forth. So we will move through this ultra skinny moment and we will come out on the other side with something else. And, you know, it'll just Keep cycling back around. So I actually wrote recently about this and. And noted I got interviewed by the Irish Times exactly 10 years ago about how skinny was out and strong was in. And I was like, look at that. Now we're, you know, right back.

[Dory Shafrir]

It took 10 years. Yes.

[Cadence Debuss]

So.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes.

[Cadence Debuss]

So I think always these things are in reaction to something else. And I think I'm very fortunate that my clients are pretty clued in. And I don't have too many people that are really focused feeling like they are. I mean, everyone is. Everyone feels like they should be skinnier. Right. Because that's the message that we get. And I know that my clients more and more are telling me that whatever ailment they come to, their doctors with, their doctors are like, you should just take a glp. And they're like, I really don't want to. Wow. Yeah. And like, okay, there are other medications for heart disease or whatever, you know, like, please, I don't need this one. That's going to do all these other things to me. That's really disturbing because I end up. I've literally sent resources to clients on just like, patient advocacy, and especially to my clients that are in bigger bodies and literally just fat clients of mine, there are lots of resources where you ask questions like, to the doctor, if I was thin, what would you recommend? Can we talk about that? Like, can we just notice the lens that you're going through and like, literally just close your eyes, pretend I'm thin, and what options would you give me? So I do a lot of that kind of. Yeah. Advocacy on the part of my clients or validating them and being like, here's some. Here's some people that. That have resources for you. The first assessment that I do is literally just visually, I'm watching you move. I'm watching you interact with space, and I'm getting told a lot of information just by seeing how you do really basic things. So that our first session, I usually have people just, like, roll down, head to the, you know, towards the ground, sit, stand, like, literally primary color movements just to like, let's just see what your body does. Looking at a client that had taken Ozempic and this person had lost 70 pounds, and I didn't know what their body looked like before. It was very disconcerting because I really couldn't tell what that shift had done to their body. Like, I had no metric and. And it was because there is so much muscle loss often with GLPs. I was, you know, it's like I. I was seeing this body After a humongous transition that was, you know, artificially created in some way or. I don't know, people get. It's not a judgment, but it's like, it's. It's a different feeling than when someone has lost weight because the disease that they took has result that they had with has resolved or, you know, whatever. They're not depressed and now they're moving more and their body has changed. I think what's really insidious about GLPs is that normally I tell people that we all really have body types and we can only. We can only change so much within the body type that we're already given. But because GLPs affect muscle, people can kind of quote, unquote, change their body type. And you can have a person who's naturally like thicker and stockier turn out really, quite, quite thin. And that is really disturbing because I don't think it's a good thing to lose muscle. I think most people would agree with that. And this client did say they've never felt weaker. They were very concerned about that. And because I didn't have, I didn't know them before, I. It was hard for me to assess, like, what. How much of this is natural for you. Like, you know, pushing this amount of weight or whatever. Like, I don't know what your strength level was like before. And I will say, and this is maybe a judgment, there is a dissociation happening if you are medically losing weight. That is similar to the dissociation that happens when people are focusing their entire lives on losing weight by restricting calories and working out a zillion hours a day. And that is troublesome because it's hard to be connected to a body that you're really manipulating so much. And I'm not even saying, like, don't do it. And I'm not saying, you know, you're bad or dumb or whatever. People are making use of tools that are available in a world and society that does not support us to be healthy and balanced or have the ability to have balanced lives. So I, I 100 believe that. And if, if it's helping you get there, then that's a great reason to do it. But it, there is just notice that there is some kind of disconnect. And so that's, you know, it is a very outside way of viewing your own body. Except that we live in our body. And so that is, that is a tricky place. And with all that being said, I would love to work with someone who's on GLPs. And help them during that transition so that hopefully they can be as in touch as possible during that. Because it's hard. It's really hard to be in a body.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, it's all hard. And like, you know, I think people are on GLPs for different reasons. And I, I mean, I have no judgment about any of it. I'm just, I'm more sort of curious about how it affects how people think about their bodies and how they move through the world. So that's kind of where my questions are, are coming from. But you did mention kind of bone density and muscle mass, and we've had a lot of con on our show about perimenopause and menopause and, you know, people talking about preventing loss of muscle mass and increasing bone density, particularly in these seasons of our lives. And I'm wondering what you recommend in terms of strength training, lifting, anything to help people during this, during this time. Like, how can people get started? And what do you suggest?

[Cadence Debuss]

Yeah, I think that's the question right there is like, is it, do they need to get started or do they already have some kind of movement practice? And then they're realizing, I don't know if this is really cutting it at this stage in my life. So I think that's a. The first place for anyone to start is to really just ask themselves questions like, what did they already do? What are they curious about doing? What do they want from this? You know, what's easy for them? Like, you know, I would love to go dog sledding all the time, but it's just really not something that you can do in Brooklyn, New York, you know, but like, if I lived in Alaska, I would totally sign up for that on the weekends, you know?

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Cadence Debuss]

So often I've had quite a number of women that like, had always had a really great yoga practice. And then they're just realizing now they're in their 40s. That's really not cutting it for them in terms of strength building. So the real next question is, how much of a chore do you find exercise? Because some people are very good at being like, great, this is the way to solve this problem. I'm just going to do it. I'm going to sign up and I'm going to do my strength training twice a week. And I just check it off my list and I don't really have that much baggage around it. And whether I enjoy it or not, who cares? I'm getting the results that I want. I feel stronger, I feel more capable. I feel, you know, less fragile in my body. Great. If you're just like, I have a long history of really, I don't like exercising, I don't like sweating. I was like the kid that got picked last for the, you know, gym class team. I have a lot of discomfort around this. Then I would really recommend that you find like anything that you're curious about. Even if it's like rock climbing, you know, it could be, you know, roller skate class. And just start with any movement that you're vaguely interested in and just try and do that. And if, if that works, awesome. Just keep up that consistency. And then what people often want is like a three month plan and now they're done and they work out all the time and everything's great. I just talked to a client of mine who when she first came to me, she now has two kids and one of them is probably, I've probably known her for 10 years and I think I worked with her. I think she first came in when with her first pregnancy and she was someone who would self describe as like, oh, she doesn't exercise and she really like, she can't, it's not interested and blah blah, blah. And she was really motivated during her pregnancies, but otherwise would like really pop in and out of my offerings. And I do a virtual running club, which is one of my favorite things that we do because it's extremely, extremely beginner friendly. And she did that club and she did it a couple of times actually. She ended up running a half marathon. Then she kind of stopped running altogether. And then recently she reached out to me and was like, I started strength training again. And you know, she was like, literally it was so cute because she sent me a picture of this like whiteboard in her gym with that said like Cadence's class. And she was like, I'm strength training with you because she's now works for a bike like philanthropy thing, like bringing bikes to communities. And she's like, I'm biking all the time and my co workers introduced me to gravel biking and it's super fun and I want to get stronger for it. And so it's circled all the way back to she basically found a thing that she's really excited about that she really wants to do. And now in order to do it better and have more fun, she's like, I got to get stronger. And so now she's like back re engaged getting, doing the strength training. And it has this much bigger picture which is so much more fun than bone density, muscle mass where she's we're the same age. She's in her early 40s and she's like, I've never been fitter. I literally get up at 6am to do my strength workouts. You could never tell me that I would ever have done that. I mean, when I first met her, she was run out the door late, hasn't eaten breakfast for, you know, not a 6am working out person. And I'm not saying that should be everyone's goal, right? But I think like that's a 10 year journey this person went through. Wow. So give yourself time to go on a journey and trust that it's worth it. And it doesn't mean that in the middle, I mean, in the middle of that journey she ran a half marathon. In the middle of that journey she did all these different things. It wasn't like she, she was constantly stopping and starting to the point where she was starting from ground zero over and over. But I think like, if you go to the, you know, water aerobics class and you're like, wow, that's super fun. Trust that if you just keep going, something else is going to happen where you're going to be like, oh, there's a circus studio in my neighborhood. The water aerobics was fun, maybe I'll try a silks class or something. And now all of a sudden you're like meeting all these other people that are introducing other things. This is how our lives play out. And I think when we talk about our bodies and our fitness practices, we're really used to getting this like everyday something thing or this like little prescription which really does not suit how life works and it also doesn't suit how our actual bodies work. Like that client I was talking about had two kids over those that decade. Obviously she did different things while she was nine months pregnant versus when she was not pregnant. But we aren't told that the way that we should care for our body or engage with our body physically is going to change sometimes drastically within a year, within five years. And so we tend to just give ourselves the story that I started a thing and I failed. I started a thing and got injured. I'm a failure. I started a thing. I didn't like it because I'm terrible at it. Instead of just continuing to try again, just like you would if you were like, oh, I got inspired by Great British Bake off and I'm going to make brownies and now I'm going to try making a cake. And like we're so much less harsh, right? We're like, oh, the brownies were like, kind of okay. The cake didn't really work. Let me try this recipe. We're like, really nice to ourselves and in a 10 year period, you could turn into this person that all your friends are asking to bake for their, you know, kids, birthdays. But when we look at our own physical practice, we're like, oh, I tried running once and I was terrible at it. I'm never, ever doing it again.

[Dory Shafrir]

Right. And I'm done. That's it. Yeah. Well, that feels like a great note to end on Cadence. It was so great to get to talk to you. I just, I love your whole philosophy and your takes on everything and I feel very inspired now. So thank you.

[Cadence Debuss]

I'm so glad. It was so great to talk to you. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Where can our listeners find you? I know we didn't even talk about your online programs, but where can our listeners find you?

[Cadence Debuss]

So my studio is Brooklyn Strength. You can find [e-mail] I have three self paced series that you can sign up for anytime you want. One is rehab based. It's called Start Relief. One is sort of if I could wave a magic wand and everyone started one, it would be the Start Stability series, which teaches you kind of just how your body works and how it's put together and kind of common injuries and issues. It is sort of Pilates based. So there it's mat work, but it's almost a collection of like mini lecture demonstration workshops where you can really get a lot of questions answered about like, why does my shoulder hurt? And then the last one is Start Strength, which is a strength based program. And I also have a podcast called Busybody where I interview people about having bodies. And most of them have written books of some kind. So I've had some really great conversations there. And I have a substack called After Class where I write more in depth about some of these ideas and I'm happy to have people engage on any of those things, tell me that they're out there.

[Dory Shafrir]

And everyone can find all [e-mail] yep.

[Cadence Debuss]

And I'm on Instagram @brooklynstrength. And you can always DM me. And you can always DM me just like random questions too, because I love just kind of knowing who's out there and what they're thinking about.

[Dory Shafrir]

I love that. Well, thank you so much. This is. This is really great.

[Cadence Debuss]

Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you to Cadence for joining us and kind of giving us the boost and the reassurance that to return to our bodies as she talks about, you know, and not be so disconnected. It's a vital connection.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. I just loved her message. Well, Elise, let's get into the intention zone. You were going to read more fiction last week. How did that go?

[Elise Hu]

I didn't read the fiction. I did not read said fiction because I was so busy, as I mentioned on the casual chat, being a sport agent for my seventh grader. However, I did. One of my library books came off of Hold. I'm so excited. It is fiction. It is Flashlight by Susan Choi. So Susan Choi wrote Trust Exercise about that. I was high School for the Performing Arts. Yes. Well, Flashlight is her new one. I have 20 days to finish it. I sent it to my E reader. I'm very excited. So I am going to fulfill my intention of last week, this weekend.

[Dory Shafrir]

What do you think you have coming up this week?

[Elise Hu]

This week I'm going to take a page out of Cadence's book and work on movement and strength.

[Dory Shafrir]

Ooh, exciting.

[Elise Hu]

And maybe I should do a little, like, rehab type ankle stuff with my daughter. You know, maybe we'll do some mommy daughter movement and strength.

[Dory Shafrir]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

So I don't know if she can quite yet, but going to put movement and strength. Yeah. I don't want to be like, hey, let's do something together, right?

[Cadence Debuss]

Crack.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oops. What about you, Dor? Well, I said last week I was going to tackle Henry's room, and I did.

[Cadence Debuss]

Yay.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yay. There's. There's some more tackling to go, but I made a huge dent in what I needed to do in there. And like I said at the top of the show this week, my parents are coming to visit. It's a pretty quick visit. My parents love to fly across the country and then stay for, like, two days.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrir]

They get in Thursday night and they're leaving Sunday afternoon.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, wow. That is very short. From Boston.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. Whoa. All right.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrir]

I mean, my mom. Part of it is because my mom still teaches.

[Elise Hu]

Teaching. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

She, you know, she has to be back to teach. But it is funny because I'm like, it's quite a long flight and you're only staying.

[Elise Hu]

But anyway, it's kind of them to do that. You're the only daughter that's all the way over here. Her other kids are on the east coast and nearby.

[Dory Shafrir]

My sister at least used to be in Austin, so it was. Sometimes they would, like, go to Austin and then come see me because it was like intermediate stop. And. Yeah. Now everyone is on the East Coast. So I really am the odd sibling out here. Yeah. But yeah, I just want to have like a nice chill visit with them. That is my intention for the week. So.

[Elise Hu]

All right, we're putting it out there.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. Wish me luck. Thank you and all right, thanks everyone for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafriar and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks, everybody.

[Elise Hu]

Talk next time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Bye.

[Elise Hu]

Sometimes the best reminder that things will be all right is hearing a fresh perspective from experts who've seen it all and have the wisdom to prove it. Like I learned about extreme anchors in negotiation from the FBI negotiator Chris Voss's class on Masterclass and it really changed my life. I think about it all the time. And if you're not into that, you can also also learn how to eat more ethically and sustainably. With Michael Pollan, you can build habits that stick with atomic habits, author James Clear and take care of your gut, brain, skin and more with science based tips from leading experts. The classes really make a difference. Three out of four surveyed members feel inspired every time they watch Masterclass. I'm definitely in that majority. And with Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. With plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, you get unlimited access to more than 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. With Masterclass, you get thousands of bite sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] forever35. That's 15% [e-mail] forever35 masterclass.com forever35 dude.

[Cadence Debuss]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Cadence Debuss]

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[Cadence Debuss]

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