Episode 381: Learning a New Life with Jen Hatmaker

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 381: Learning a New Life with Jen Hatmaker

Date: December 15, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Jen Hatmaker

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Doree and Elise reconnect with bestselling author and podcaster Jen Hatmaker, who returns to Forever35 following a transformative period in her life. The conversation delves deep into Jen’s experiences since her last appearance in May 2020: the end of her 26-year marriage, her evolving relationship with faith and identity, and the challenges and liberation of rebuilding her life in midlife. With characteristic warmth and candor, Jen unpacks themes from her new memoir, Awake, offering wisdom on self-trust, boundaries, finances, faith, and building a new sense of self after loss. The episode is a poignant exploration of self-care, resilience, and what it means to truly believe oneself.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jen's Radical Self-Care: The Friday Noon Rule

• [14:43] Jen shares her current self-care practice: she and her team end work by noon every Friday.
  • “Our weekend starts Fridays at noon. I cannot tell you how awesome that feels… For some reason, like, the mental lift that has provided for the whole team is really outsized.” — Jen Hatmaker [15:02]
  • It’s a boundary for the entire team, not just herself. She even tells her team to “ignore her” if she texts after noon.

2. Catching Up Since 2020: Jen's Personal Earthquake

• [17:33] Jen recounts the six weeks between her last appearance and learning of her husband’s affair, leading to the end of their 26-year marriage (July 11, 2020).
  • She describes it as a “before and after” moment in her life.
  • Candidly discusses the pain and upheaval: "My story just split in half. Married 26 years, five kids. And after that, divorced single parent, completely different life." [18:42]

3. Trusting Her Inner Knowing

• [21:30] Jen describes learning to trust her intuition after previously ignoring major red flags in her marriage.
  • “I will believe myself the first time... I don’t care how disruptive that thing is that I know... when I know something is wrong or over or broken... That’s it. I will believe myself the first time without waiting for it to miraculously fix itself…” — Jen Hatmaker [24:41]
• She now emphasizes the importance of not gaslighting oneself and moving toward integrity and self-trust, even when it’s disruptive.

4. Grieving the Loss of History and Shared Memory

• [26:17] Jen reflects on the sadness of losing not just her marriage, but her “institutional memory partner”—someone who shared all her adult milestones and memories.
  • “Not that I lost him in my marriage... but that I lost my person who had all the inside jokes with me, totally shared all the memories. We had this shorthand. And nobody will ever replicate that. Ever. Those years are over.” [27:30]
• Both Jen and Elise share the unique grief and bittersweetness of co-parenting and grandparenting alone post-divorce.

5. On Evangelicalism, Tradwife Culture, and Control

• [32:58] Jen no longer identifies with the evangelical community, which she describes as both “opted out and kicked out.”
• She critiques the rise of the “tradwife” phenomenon and the continued historical entanglement of white evangelicalism with nationalism, patriarchy, and anti-feminism.
  • “I don’t miss it... that used to be my home. You know, I used to live there. I know that language, I know that ethos. I know how that belonging is given and revoked based on your behavior, based on your positions.” [36:21]
• She points out that the ultimate tool of control in those environments is “belonging,” making silence and compliance powerful social pressures.

6. Parenting and Faith After Deconstruction

• [37:52] Jen discusses raising five kids, now 19–27, all navigating faith in diverse ways, and her more open approach.
  • “I am not afraid of whatever their faith journey looks like... my theology doesn’t require me to be afraid for them anymore. I’m not in charge of their eternity…I just see it as the two prongs that Jesus said, which is love God and love people. That’s it.” [41:31]

7. Taking Charge of Finances After Divorce

• [42:26] Jen admits she’d previously “phoned in” her financial life, trusting her husband to manage everything, but warns this left her vulnerable and unprepared.
  • “One of the more humiliating parts of Awake…was how deeply I had phoned in our shared financial life... I wasn’t watching. And I should have been.” [42:26]
• She details her crash course in managing money post-divorce, encouraging other women: “Know it, learn it, and do it before you have to do it on your own.” [45:53]

8. Dating, Love, and Sex in Midlife

• [46:44] Jen describes her surprise at reentering the dating world in her late 40s, the hilarity of a failed 12-hour Bumble stint, and ultimately meeting her current partner “in the wild.”
  • She cherishes her newfound independence and the ease of a healthy relationship, crediting maturity for better communication, sex, and intimacy.
  • “I am a better partner to Tyler than I was a wife to Brandon. I’m just a different person... Sex is fun at this age. Also same. We’re older, we’re better. Right? All of it…I just prefer being older to being younger, basically in every category.” [49:13, 50:19]

9. Advice for Those Sensing Change is Needed

• [51:15] Jen offers direct counsel to listeners wrestling with inner alarms and uncertain next steps.
  • “Believe yourself. Yourself is not lying to yourself. If your body is giving you signals…you are not lying to yourself. Stop gaslighting yourself... There’s a cost one way or another. You’re either going to tell the truth and move into alignment and integrity and then figure out how to manage the disruption…or you’re already paying the cost to stay. It’s not free.” [51:15–52:48]
  • “Pay it in freedom. It is a smaller cost than the one you’re paying now. Believe yourself.” [52:53]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On boundaries and self-care:
  “I tell them if I text you after noon on Friday, ignore me…Our weekend starts Fridays at noon.” — Jen Hatmaker [15:00]

• On the shock of divorce:
  "My story just split in half. Married 26 years, five kids. And after that, divorced single parent, completely different life." — Jen Hatmaker [18:42]

• On learning to trust intuition:
  "I will believe myself the first time... I don’t care how disruptive that thing is that I know... I will believe myself the first time without waiting for it to miraculously fix itself...” — Jen Hatmaker [24:41]

• On divorce’s enduring sadness:
  “Those years are over. They’re over.” — Jen Hatmaker [27:36]

• On faith and parenting:
  “I just see it as the two prongs that Jesus said, which is love God and love people. That’s it. That’s all I really know for sure.” — Jen Hatmaker [41:31]

• On taking charge financially:
  “I got really serious about taking charge of my own money. And I did. And I could. And anyone can.” [44:53]

• On relationships post-divorce:
  “Sex is fun at this age. Also same. We’re older, we’re better. Right? All of it.” [50:11]

• On listening to your gut:
  “Believe yourself…There’s a cost one way or another. You’re either going to tell the truth and move into alignment…or you’re already paying the cost to stay. It’s not free.” [51:15–52:48]

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Important Timestamps

• [14:43] — Jen’s radical “Friday noon” work boundary
• [17:33] — The upheaval: end of marriage and before/after
• [21:30] — The “inner knowing” and what she had to let go
• [26:17] — Grieving the loss of shared memory
• [32:58] — Disentangling from evangelical, tradwife culture
• [37:52] — Parenting, faith, and non-controlling spiritual outlook
• [42:26] — Taking charge of finances
• [46:44] — Dating and relationships after divorce
• [51:15] — Advice to listeners: “Believe yourself”

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Tone and Style

The episode mixes deep vulnerability with humor, honesty, and practical wisdom. Jen is disarmingly candid, often poking fun at herself while delivering substantial advice. Elise and Doree create a warm, supportive, and thoughtful space for exploration of tough topics around divorce, boundaries, self-worth, and beyond.

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Summary

This conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in personal reinvention, reclaiming agency, and building self-trust after life’s seismic shifts. Jen Hatmaker delivers both the hard-earned lessons and hope for transformation—reminding listeners, above all, to believe themselves.

Transcript

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[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

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[Dori Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we are just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dori Shafrier]

And this episode features a return forever 35 guest, someone who was on in May of 2020 in a very different environment. Yes, what a time that was. And her life has certainly changed a lot since she was last on the show. And she has a new book about it called Awake. And we are talking of course of Jen Hatmaker. We had such a great conversation with her. She is like one of the most charismatic people I think I've ever spoken to.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, she's really fascinating. She was married to a pastor, famously kind of got ousted by the evangelical movement. And she talks about that and really wrestled with her old identity, what her identity is now, what faith means to her. We had a great conversation. So that's all coming up for our big guest interview later in the show. But first we have some housekeeping notes. I think our Patreon sale is still on. Is that right, Dor?

[Dori Shafrier]

It sure is still on. It is on until this Friday. This Friday night. I think I set it for 11:58pm there's still time. There's still 20% off. Yeah, we're offering 20% off monthly and annual memberships.

[Jen Hatmaker]

So.

[Dori Shafrier]

So head over to patreon.com/forever35 if you are a Patreon supporter or if you were. Last Wednesday, you got to see our live casual chat, which was so much fun. Thank you to everyone who joined us. And the recording of that is on our Patreon now. So if you are a Patreon subscriber, you can check that out. We also do our regular weekly casual chats, our monthly pop culture episodes. We have ad free episodes. We have the bonus forever 35 questionnaire. We have chats in the Patreon app. I mean, there's just a lot happening on the Forever35 Patreon.

[Elise Hu]

And then we also wanna remind y' all that our gift guide, we recorded our gift guide episode, but that gift guide is also available on Patreon and we sent it out to all of our newsletter subscribers. So even if you aren't one of our Patreon members, you have access to our gift guide. And there's all sorts of fun items that you can still get that are still available as we are in the holiday season now and it's not too late. It's not too late to check it out. Doer, your candle warmer recommendation is surprisingly popular or not surprising. No. Or maybe not so surprisingly popular for our listeners. No.

[Dori Shafrier]

Is it a surprise? Elise, we are big candle warmer evangelists right here.

[Jen Hatmaker]

How are you?

[Elise Hu]

How are you doing on all your gift purchasing? Or do you have kind of a framework for how you buy gifts in your family? Like, are you, do you have a budget that you try not to exceed? Or do you have, like, a certain number of gifts? How are you thinking about it? There's no wrong answers. I was just curious because I feel like this gets out of hand every year with the girls.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, it's tricky because we do Hanukkah and Christmas, so I try not to go overboard on Hanukkah because it's a present every night, which can get pretty overwhelming. But have. If you've ever done dog training, one of the things that you learn is that when you give a dog a treat as a reward, they are just as rewarded by like, the tiniest morsel of the treat as they are by, like, an enormous treat like this. The size of the treat does not matter.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

It's actually the receiving of a treat at all.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Correct.

[Dori Shafrier]

It is the receiving of the treat. And so I try to channel that in my gift giving as well. And I have found that, that, at least for now for my son, who is 6, that that works. He is just as happy with, like, a fidget toy that cost a dollar or a $3 Hot Wheels car that I got at Ralph's as he is by, like, you know, a quote unquote, big gift. So really try to, like, keep things moderate. He does have a list for both Christmas and Hanukkah, and it's pretty reasonable. A lot of. A lot of tracks. A lot of, you know, Hot Wheels.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

Formula One. He's very into Formula One now. And so a lot of Formula One, Hot Wheels, marble tracks.

[Elise Hu]

Race, racetrack. Infrastructure.

[Dori Shafrier]

Infrastructure, yes, exactly. That's awesome. And, you know, we'll do. For Hanukkah. We'll do, like, One night will be his present from my parents. One night is a present from my brother. One night is a book. One night is, you know, so that's kind of the framework, and I think a lot of people do that for Hanukkah, regardless of whether or not they also celebrate Christmas this year. Christmas is a little tricky, though, because we are going to be away.

[Jen Hatmaker]

So.

[Dori Shafrier]

We are going to have to talk to Santa about bringing the big gifts. When we get back, we're gonna have to put in a special request.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

To bring the big gifts upon our return, because we can't bring them where we're going, much less bring them home. So that's gonna be interesting.

[Elise Hu]

One of my favorite Christmas memories is I think I was in third grade or something, and we went to Disney World for Christmas and Santa. My parents explained that Santa couldn't get to Disney World, but I had asked Santa. I had gone to the mall and asked Santa for a bunny. Like, I wanted a bunny for Christmas. A live bunny. Okay. And so I was sort of like, well, how am I going to get my bunny? Santa needs to get this bunny to me. And we came home from the trip, and there was a bunny at the house, and I was just elated, over the moon, and Santa had delivered. And so I was like, I guess this bunny has been here since Christmas morning just waiting for you. I guess Santa just came, and this bunny has been waiting for me and my Bunny Mumford, who I love. RIP RIP Rest in Power Mumford. Um, yeah. And that was. I, like, obviously, I figured it out, like, how my parents worked it out, and it wasn't really that tough for them logistically, but it's just such a magical memory that I came home and Santa had. Had delivered the bunny.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. It was awesome.

[Dori Shafrier]

So nice.

[Elise Hu]

Sometimes. Sometimes when we're away, Santa will be able to make it to like the ski house where we're staying, you know, but it totally depends on where you're at. So.

[Dori Shafrier]

And we like, are you driving? Like, you know, there's a lot of considerations.

[Elise Hu]

Once they're done with school, we have three or four days left until Christmas. So there's. The turnaround is really short to do all of the, do all of the last minute prep. I do have, do. I do have some presents wrapped. I did order some things on Black Friday so that I would be a little bit ahead of the curve. We still have only half of the Christmas tree decorated like we. Ava keeps saying, like, I don't want to be left out. And so she wants to do all of the, she wants to put up all the ornaments together. But every time we try to be all together, it's like almost impossible that we're all together at the same time. And so Luna and I finally broke down and we were like, okay, one of us just needs to do the red ornaments and the other can do the silver ones. And we'll just wait on all bit more high priced, you know, special memorial ornaments and things. So yes, we're still waiting. And Rob went on this little Roblums, I call them Roblums. Like when he suddenly gets, he kind of gets Larry David sometimes and gets annoyed about something and then he goes on like a little rant about something I think is rather pick a un. Like the other day as we were getting all the Christmas decorations down, he's like, what's up with Christmas colors? Red and green. So garish. Not a good combo. Like this is not something that you would. The only reason it's a Christmas color is because like you wouldn't actually have this color, any this color combination any other time of the year. It's just not a good combination. And so I worry that as we continue putting up decor, he's going to like get upset about the colors or whatever else, whatever complaint is going to come up. But I suppose I've never really thought about whether it bothered me that red and green are together.

[Dori Shafrier]

What I'm hearing is that Rob is really the Andy Rooney of our time. Red and green.

[Elise Hu]

What's wrong with red and green?

[Dori Shafrier]

What's up with red and green?

[Elise Hu]

Like I said, Robles, he could have a whole series. Maybe he could graduate to doing the end of the 60 minute segments.

[Dori Shafrier]

This is what I'm saying. All right, well, Elise, let's introduce our guest, Jen.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, Jen Hatmaker. She is a bestselling author, award winning podcaster, speaker and fierce advocate for women living in freedom and agency. With 14 books including four New York Times bestsellers, along with her beloved for the Love podcast, Jen Hatmaker Book Club and more, she reaches millions with her signature mix of humor, vulnerability and wisdom. Her newest book, Awake, a memoir, just came out in September of this year and she chronicles her raw, real time journey through the shocking end of her 26 year marriage, which is what Dori was alluding to earlier at the beginning of the show and her surprising reinvention. She lives in a creaky old farmhouse, loves 90s country, so do I and drinks Almond Joy creamer like it's a personality trait.

[Dori Shafrier]

Find her@jen hatmaker.com and before we get to Jen, just a reminder that Our website is forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. Our Instagram is @forever35 podcast again. Our Patreon is on sale for this week only patreon.com/forever35 for 20% off. This will be the only sale we do all year so get in on it. Our favorite products are at Shopmy US Forever 35. We also also have our gift guide products all on one shelf. Over there we have Elise's daughter's tween skincare and beauty Rex. So head over there and check that out over. Our newsletter is now on our Patreon so you can join for free and just get our newsletter patreon.com/forever35 and please call or text us with any questions, comments, concerns, feedback you have and we will address them on one of our mini episodes and that number is 781-591-0390 and our email is forever35podcastgmail.com and we will be right back with Jen.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be right back.

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[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50 off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means a half day. Yeah, give it a [e-mail] Switch up.

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[Dori Shafrier]

Jen Hatmaker welcome back to Forever35. We're so happy to see you again.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, you guys. Delighted to be here.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, well, I don't. You probably don't remember since you were on the show five and a half years ago.

[Jen Hatmaker]

We've lived some life since then. Yeah, all of us.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Indeed. We've been through it.

[Dori Shafrier]

We really have. But for now, we start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So we're wondering, is there something that you're doing right now that you would consider self care?

[Jen Hatmaker]

I have made a rule for myself and whoever works with me and for me that we are done working Fridays by noon. I know that it's not seem like much.

[Elise Hu]

It's a boundary.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's a boundary. Like there's no meetings, we're done. I will not text you. Don't text me. Nothing's due past that moment. Our weekend starts Fridays at noon. I cannot tell you how awesome that feels. Like it's just one afternoon. But for some reason, like the mental lift that has provided for the whole team is really outsized.

[Elise Hu]

And it's important that it's for the whole team. Right. It's not just you or not just like one member of the team, but it is across the board. Everybody adheres to that and honors that particular boundary.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's it. I tell them if I text you afternoon on a Friday, ignore me. Like, I don't care if I'm your boss, don't answer me. So they don't listen.

[Dori Shafrier]

This has been kind of coming up a lot from our listeners. Like how to set boundaries at work. And what I love about what you're saying is like you're kind of emphasizing this does come from the top. Like you have to set the tone as the boss. And so I love that you're, that you're doing that.

[Jen Hatmaker]

What a, what a gift it is really. Everybody works so hard. It's not as if we're phoning it in in all the other hours we're working and working and working. And so like for me, this means I have this permanent spot in my brain where I can schedule a lunch with a friend. Like it's like I just, it gives me this time slot that I can count on for three Fridays, afternoon always. That's the Other parts of my life that bring me so much joy and respite and delight. And so tomorrow is Friday. I have a lunch at 12:30, so I just needed enough time to drive there, that's all. And like 12:30, let's meet then. We'll have a three hour lunch. Can't wait.

[Dori Shafrier]

Love that so much. Well, Jen, as I mentioned, we last talked to you in May of 2020, so right before a lot of, a lot of things happened in your life.

[Jen Hatmaker]

What a weird time. Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

So I'm wondering if you could just kind of catch people up a little bit. I mean, you have this new book out Awake, that is very much about that period of your life and what came after. And so if you could just kind of catch everyone up on what's been going on.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Well, that was such a weird time. Of course we were all in the pandemic. Of course, the very front edge of it. We didn't have language yet.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, we thought everything was going to be reopened by September to completely.

[Jen Hatmaker]

What a disorienting collective time for all of us that May. And then not six weeks later, I found out that my husband was having an affair and had a completely other different life outside of my purview. And. And he moved out in July of that year. And we'd been married for 26 years. We have five kids. And so I've. A lot of women have a date like, and there's a before and an after to that date. So that can sometimes for some women it's like a diagnosis. There's a before and after sitting in that doctor's office or it's a crisis, something, some tragedy happens. And that's the date for me. My date's July 11, 2020. And my story, just split in half. Married 26 years, five kids. And after that, divorced single parent, completely different life.

[Elise Hu]

How old were your kids at the time, during the pandemic?

[Jen Hatmaker]

At the time they were 14 to 22. So I had two in high school, two in college, and one just had just graduated from college.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Jen Hatmaker]

So you had two of them who.

[Elise Hu]

Were on Zoom School at home.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Oh my God, what an effing disaster. Like I have said, and I mean it. I absolutely like was an involuntary homeschool mom and contributed to the dumbing down of America. I mean, I don't even know how we got through that year, to be honest. They learned nothing. Sorry, future. Sorry, future. What a mess.

[Elise Hu]

So In May of 2020, you were on Forever 35. This is before it predates me as a host so you spoke with Dorian Kate to talk about Fierce, Fierce, Free and Full of Fire, the Guide to Being Glorious. What do you think of that book now?

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah, I wrote that book in 2018, more or less. That was when I did the heavy lifting of that book. And I feel so gentle and tender toward 2018. Jen, who did not know what she didn't know and had a perception of her life that wasn't true. But if I'm being also fully honest, I had alarm bells. I mean, I had alarm bells, but my knowing was telling me something is wrong, something is off. I knew something was wrong with my husband at the time. I knew something was obviously wrong in our marriage. But I just kept thinking, I can explain this. I understand where he's at. I get his deal right now and he is going to recover. He is going to rebound. Like we are going to rebound. We'd been through some shit before and we'd found our way to the other side. And so I just kept thinking, we're going to get there. But I just feel really protective of her, of how hard she was working, how hard she was trying, how that was the very. That was the dawn of fear where the red flags were no longer at low mast, like they were flying high. And when I think about me in May of I cannot believe I was on your show in May of that year.

[Dori Shafrier]

Isn't that crazy?

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yes. Yes. It was right before I didn't know yet. It was right before you say you.

[Elise Hu]

Didn'T know what you didn't know. And then you learned to trust your own knowing. You know, really trust that soul, that emotional engine deep inside. I guess a two part question. What part? One is, what do you feel like you had to shed? What sort of beliefs had you held onto for most of your life did you have to shed after your July 11, 2020 date? And then two, how did you learn to trust your inner knowing more? Because I think all of us could use that.

[Jen Hatmaker]

A lot of things fell by the wayside after that summer. I had a unuseful, un examined, poorly tested optimism before that date. And I don't mean that like in a. There's a place for optimism, for sure. I'm still that way. So it's not as if I've turned into a cynic. Sure, sure. But I would say what I had kind of cherished and clung to up until that summer was this foolish, unengaged sense that things will just work out. So even when something has presented itself as problematic and it needs my engagement, clearly it needs a Hardcore discussion. It needs therapy, it needs attention, it needs to be. Everything else needs to be triaged, in service. Even when it's that big. I was still sort of moving through the world with this sense that this is going to sort itself out, this penny's going to fall right side up. That's not useful, true or helpful. And I don't live like that anymore. Also, I mean, I had spent 15 years building a community of women in which, among other things, I've talked, I talked about marriage and family for a couple of decades. And so my position as a wife inside a really like kind of visible marriage, it also in a, in a partnership where we did not just partner in our family and home, we partnered in our work. We shoulder to shouldered like next to each other in our adult work. So so much of that, those identities just crumbled away overnight. And I wish I would have had the courage to face what I think my inner wisdom was trying to tell me before someone else chose it for me. And I don't think, actually, I don't believe that women require a crisis to sort of snap to and wake up and live in their own truth. I think we can choose that. Even in the beautiful shiny light of day when the sun is shining on our stories. I think we can choose it then. I was too afraid to. And so I'll never really know what could have happened had I had more courage and more integrity, had I not spent so much time gaslighting my own self out of knowing what I knew.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

And so now I'm moving through. I moved through that recovery process and rebuilding process. I slogged my way through it. I mean that's, that's the, that's the bulk of awake, what that looked like. But I have now promised myself that for the second half of my life, I will believe myself the first time. I don't care how disruptive that thing is, that I know how scary or uncertain or even what sort of loss is probably going to be baked into it when I know something is wrong or over or broken or needs attention or has run its course. That's it. I will believe myself the first time without waiting for it to miraculously fix itself without my intervention. Which, by the way, spoiler alert. That's not how it works, right?

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, weird.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah, it doesn't work at all. So just in case you wanted to try that as a, you know, approach to your life, I'm just telling you it's ineffective. Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

You, you write so poignantly about kind of the complicated Feelings about divorce. So you have this one line where you say, I've lost my institutional memory partner. And oh, that just really hit me, you know, new you got married at 19. Like this was someone that knew your whole adult life and so.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Adult life, yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

So I'm wondering just like, how do you navigate like grieving the loss of not just the marriage, but also like that history?

[Jen Hatmaker]

It's so sad. There's some things about divorce that are just always going to be sad. And I've had to come to terms with that. That even though I am genuinely better off today than I was five years ago in ways that I could not have fathomed, I have recovered. And not just recovered, I have flourished in ways that I had no imagination for five years ago. Having said that, when you marry somebody at age 19 and you literally grow up together.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I did not have an independent adult moment of in my life. I'd never even been to a movie by myself. That is the person that I shared every memory with, every story, every year, every like sort of chapter in our lives. And I was unprepared for how sad it was going to feel to me that I'd lost that partner. Not that I lost him in my marriage.

[Dori Shafrier]

Right.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I was married to a hard person and I am better single than I was married. But that I lost my person who had all the inside jokes with me, totally shared all the memories. We had this shorthand. And nobody will ever replicate that. Ever. Those years are over. They're over.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. You know, and I think about this as well. Cause I also split up from my husband in 2020. We kind of hot boxed once everything shut like we hotboxed all of our marital issues inside the house. Cause we were like stuck together.

[Jen Hatmaker]

You know, so many people did this.

[Elise Hu]

And yes, I feel like it really accelerated us splitting up and deciding in a really final way to split up. But I was thinking actually just yesterday, like really only he was there for the birth of all of our children. You know, and so when I think about the birth stories of each of them, it's still with Matt, it's still with my ex husband, of course. You know, and there's something really beautiful about that. But there is a grieving that comes with it that I think that will. It comes just like they say about all grief, it comes in waves. You know, I found divorce to be very expansive in the same way as you.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And I loved what you said about how you can't know what you don't know and you just can't imagine how expansive it can be for you and your own self. But then at the same time, there is kind of something ending, something that was very formative in your life.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's right. And in some cases precious, in some cases fun. We didn't have 26 bad years. That's crazy. We had so many moments that were beautiful and brilliant and, and, and to your point, I think it's worth telling the truth that some of that grief continues to wave forward in some ways, usually unexpected. My oldest son, Gavin, who's 27, got married and had our very first baby in the family in August.

[Elise Hu]

Congrats.

[Jen Hatmaker]

And it's thrilling. It's thrilling. He and his wife are so precious and we're so in love with their son and my grandson. But I was not prepared for the absolute tsunami of grief that, like, rolled over my head because I just hadn't thought of it yet because I hadn't gotten to it yet. But I did not expect to grandparent alone. I had a vision for our future and it was our kids coming home to this house, to us, their home base, their home team, bringing their partners and their babies and this being the scene of the next, like 40 years of joy. And when that grandson hit the hit the scene, I went, oh, I don't have a partner to share this with. And it felt really, really sad.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you for sharing that with us. Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

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[Dori Shafrier]

I wanted to just kind of touch on the evolution of your own beliefs. You know, you were an evangelical woman influencer in the pre trad wife era. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about how kind of the public performance of the evangelical Christian woman has changed since you started being in the public eye, you know, more than 20 years ago.

[Jen Hatmaker]

God, I'm not a part of that world anymore. Yeah, like that's not my community anymore.

[Elise Hu]

You don't get trad wife. You don't get trad wife content in your feed.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Jeez. I think it knows better than to serve that up to me. And I have been like, like soundly rejected from that subculture. So it's not. I both opted out and was kicked out. So that's not my environment anymore. It's not my world anymore. In fact, so much so what's her name? I was doing an interview with the New York Times and as a journalist does try to find any little thing to poke. How can we make this interesting? This long form interview feature? And he's like, evangelical women have a lot to say about you. And he was like, it's not good. And what's her name? Ali Stuckey. Is this ringing a bellie or whatever?

[Dori Shafrier]

I read the interview, I read the Times interview, but I am not, I'm not like up on that line.

[Jen Hatmaker]

He's like, Ellie Basecki says this, this, this and this about you. I'm like, I don't know who that is. I'm like, I don't listen to that. I don't know who that is. And that doesn't bother me. I don't pay attention to that. Let them talk about I don't think.

[Elise Hu]

About her at all. Yeah, yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

And so I'm not, I'm not interested in that community anymore. And I feel like the last 10 years have been highly revealing when it comes to this sort of marriage of white evangelical culture. And it's important to say white because it doesn't involve people of color. Right. White evangelical culture and its connection to and complicity with white nationalism and anti immigration and frankly, anti feminism with this TradWife thing is just spiked. Not surprising. These all go together. These are all in the same bucket, so we can just pull them up one at a time. They all compliment each other, they all serve each other, which is the patriarchy and power and white supremacy. And so I spent a handful of years fighting all those battles when I was on, when I was recently ejected. So it was still very fresh for me, just barely in my rear view mirror. I attended every fight I was invited to and made a part time job of it. I mean, I just went toe to toe with everybody on Twitter who wanted to have say with me and wanted to, you know, just sort of poke holes in my work and my character, my faith, all of it. And those days are over for me. That is a fool's errand. Absolutely unproductive, boring, predictable, uninteresting. And the only thing, all that does is keep me out of my real life. That has a lot more vibrancy than that. And so it's weird. I watch, I look at that through a window now and I'm like, God, that used to be my home. You know, I used to live there. Yeah, I used to live there. I know that language, I know that ethos. I know how that belonging is given and revoked based on your behavior, based on your positions. I don't miss it.

[Elise Hu]

God, what tools of control are on display then? You know, like, there's so much control in that sort of power structure of big time, like the Southern Baptist Church or white evangelical Christian culture, of course.

[Jen Hatmaker]

And one of the biggest tools is belonging. And that's a very powerful incentive. We, we crave belonging. We want to be a part of the thing. We want to be loved. We, we want to be respected, we want to be included. We want to feel like we're a part of the greater thing. And so when people say, if you say this, if you believe this, if you reverse position on this, if you vote like this, if you defend this group of people, we will pull your belonging from us. I understand why a lot of people stay silent. That is really punitive and very disruptive. That'll disrupt a whole life. And so it's tools of control. But they're not new. They're very historical. But they are still very effective. They work.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. In light of your own experiences, how are you raising your kids and how are your kids coming of age and grappling with their own faith and their feelings about faith, spirituality, meaning, purpose, given the experiences that you've had very publicly, you and your ex husband, frankly, they're.

[Jen Hatmaker]

All over the map. Okay, they're all over the map. I mean, I've got five kids, so there is no like one story here. Right, right. That's exactly the same as another. And because I kind of was raised in a high control spiritual environment, I was raised Southern Baptist, which is not to say that's the only one like that. That was just my particular like.

[Elise Hu]

Right. I just happen to be familiar with because I'm from North Texas.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yes, exactly. But there's plenty of religious subcultures that are like, no, we know those tricks and you know, we know how to control women and girls. We know how to police sexuality. You know, we know all that stuff. We know that, that play True Love waits. Yes, of course.

[Elise Hu]

Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free? And we all heard that, my God.

[Dori Shafrier]

That in high school image that you have in the opening pages of your book about that.

[Elise Hu]

No, that was like, I mean, growing up.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I'm like, wait, am I the cow here?

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's right. That's familiar to a lot of women, whether or not they had an identical environment or not. And so I think that when it comes to my kids, I had already reversed course on a lot of that sort of religious dogma long before I lost my marriage. We had chosen a different faith environment, a different church environment, different theology and interpretations. And so to some degree, we didn't saddle them with the same rigid expectations and limitations. But that's not to say that they got away scot free because they had a mom who was pretty public Christian in the public eye. They had a dad who was a pastor. I mean, that's not a clean environment for kids to grapple with their own faith. And so at this point, I mean, at this point, my kids are 19 to 27, like I mentioned, so they're grown, they're young adults. And I have a very. What's the word? I am not afraid of whatever their faith journey looks like or what it's going to look like. I don't feel controlling about it. I don't. My theology doesn't require me to be afraid for them anymore. I'm not in charge of their eternity. Like I don't believe that anymore. Like I don't, I don't have those sort of fear pillars built around their process. And so we talk a lot about what, what everyone believes, what they're questioning, what they don't believe anymore. I think we have some real honest conversations and, and I just sort of watch with curiosity to see where they will land when. The good thing that I can say about all my kids is that they have a really, for the most part, core character that I have a lot of faith in, that I have a lot of confidence in. And I think at least in our home we'd done a decent job of what I think are the pillars of faith. I still have faith. I don't go to church, haven't for five years, but I still have faith. But it's just much more simple than whatever I used to say. I see faith, I just see it as the two prongs that Jesus said, which is love God and love people. That's it. That's all I really know for sure. I don't have a much more complex metric than that. And so I think they got the, the love people part pretty well and so great. Off you go into the world. Go be a good citizen. Like I look forward to seeing how that fleshes out in their life.

[Dori Shafrier]

We wanted you to talk a little bit about kind of taking charge of your own finances. You know, you mentioned you had never gone to a movie by yourself, but you would also like never done your own taxes.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's right.

[Dori Shafrier]

And I'd love to just hear a little bit more about what that's been like, like getting a clear eyed look at your money instead of trusting your husband to just do all of it.

[Jen Hatmaker]

One of the more humiliating parts of Awake that I of course included because I was committed to telling the truth in this book, not just the shiny version of it, was how deeply I had phoned in our shared financial life. And you know, sort of financial management in general is a fairly common division of labor in a marriage. Generally one partner takes the lead. But I would say we were beyond one partner taking the lead. I was just checked out. I didn't ask for visibility. It's not like it was withheld from me. But I didn't ask, I didn't, I. We didn't have business meetings. I wasn't deeply involved in big financial decisions. I, I didn't pay attention, I wasn't watching. And I should have been. Let me tell you something. I should have been. And so not only did my abdication mean that I ended up divorced and clueless financially, but I set us up for a very unaccountable disaster.

[Elise Hu]

Oh.

[Jen Hatmaker]

If no one's ever looking, if no one's ever checking, if two people are not watching where the money is going, then one person can do whatever they want and not worry about it. And so that was a hard lesson to learn.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Jen Hatmaker]

And I moved into that year, and of course, that is. That is immediate needs. You immediately have to separate your money. You immediately have to sort out your own banking. You immediately have to refinance your house in your name. Like, all of that is urgent. It can't wait for you to go to therapy.

[Elise Hu]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

And when I think back on how overwhelming, confusing, and stressful that was, I am just. I could sob, but I. Because I had no. I had lost so much. I had no pride left. So I said, I need help. Who can help me? And I onboarded immediately. A financial advisor, a bookkeeper. I got super cozy with my cpa. I made appointments with my banker. Not. Which is not to say nothing about how much I exhausted all my friends. I'm like, somebody talk to me about property taxes, you know, Like, I mean.

[Elise Hu]

I relate to this. It was endless.

[Jen Hatmaker]

It was just endless.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

But here's what I can tell you. I got really serious about taking charge of my own money. And I did, and I could, and anyone can. And so now I just tell women, I don't care if you are the happy, the most happily married woman that's ever lived on planet Earth. You need to know about your money. This should be a joint venture. You need every account, you need every password. You need to be in on every financial decision. You need to be helping, like, be involved, because you may not get divorced, but death, disease, accidents, this happens to everyone.

[Elise Hu]

Totally.

[Jen Hatmaker]

And so you never know when all of a sudden you need to be in the driver's seat of that car. And so now that's one of the things I'm actually most proud of in the recovery and rebuilding process was how much in the. Just negative space I was on knowledge when it comes to money, and then just how far I've come. I'm like a financial assassin now. I mean, I am so responsible. I am so careful. I watch every penny. I know where everything is. Like, wow, I have my house in order, and. And I'm not special. I'm not smart. I'm not like some math person. And finance is not My background, anybody could do it. It's knowable, it's doable, and it's learnable. And so I tell women all the time, know it, learn it, and do it before you have to do it on your own. For sure.

[Elise Hu]

That's great. I think a lot of us need to hear that, so that's awesome. Very affirmative. Speaking of rebuilding relearning, you got married when you were 19. You split up from your husband in your late 40s. Where are you with love and relationships now?

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah, I know, right? I didn't. Yeah. And sex that comes. It's all in the. That's all in the same bucket. I certainly did not expect to be dating in my late 40s. My God. I mean, I hadn't had a first date since 1992. And so that was all really overwhelming. And for a while, not even a part of my ecosystem. Right, right, right. The recovery process was so exhaustive. And none of that even occurred to me for a while, like. But I got maybe a year and a half north of my divorce and went, my God. I think I was telling. I think I'm ready to maybe think about dating or like, whatever. I won't tell the story, but in Awake, I, I, there's one scene called Bumble in which I explain how I spent 12 hours on a dating app. So that wasn't gonna be it. That did not work out for me. It's just not gonna be my way. And so I actually met a man in the wild. Like the olden days. Like the olden times when you just meet a person in the world. And I wasn't really looking for him. It was kind of a weird surprise, random introduction in another city that neither one of us lived in. It's one of those stories. And we have been in, like, the most beautiful relationship. We're coming up on four years. It's crazy. Like, and we're long distance. And that works for me right now. I like, works for me. I, I cherish my independence.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I cherish that for you.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I've never had it. I've never had. This is new to me. Like, this is my house. These are my rhythms. This is my stuff. Like, and I have a very, very full life here in Austin. These are my friends, this is my kids, my. Like, I'm in no rush to walk down another aisle. And so this having this relationship that doesn't have any pressure on it at all. And also, we're grown. We're grownups. Like, I'm not a 19 year old.

[Elise Hu]

Kid getting Married or you come to this relationship, right. You come to this relationship as this version of Jen. So much better, you know, is so much better, right? It's like the.

[Jen Hatmaker]

So much better, right?

[Elise Hu]

It's the much more evolved version of Jen.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Of course, as. As is everyone. Like, the truth is, I am a better partner to Tyler than I was a wife to Brandon. I'm just a different person, and I've grown up, and I'm in more possession of my own character and. And story arc and maturity and wisdom, and so it's fun. It's so fun. It's so easy having been in a kind of a hard marriage for a lot of years. And not to say it was always bad, but I just had a hard partner who's just a hard person. Not easy. Nothing was ever easy. Nothing. And so being with somebody who's just lives with an ease in the world that I have never experienced. 10 stars. 10 stars.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Having a good time.

[Elise Hu]

We're so happy. Yeah, we're so happy. You're in love.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Sex is fun. Sex is fun at this age.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Also same. We're older, we're better. Right? All of it.

[Elise Hu]

You know what you want. Yeah, totally.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I'm not still hindered by the lingering shame of purity culture, which is a real chokehold. That is a chokehold. When you are young and you have been taught your entire adolescence that everything about sex is bad and that you are filthy for wanting any of it. That's a really hard reversal that you just do on the spot on your wedding day. And so that is so far in my history. So that's no longer like a speed bump in the road. It's just better to be older. I just prefer being older to being younger, basically, in every category.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Dori Shafrier]

Jen, before we let you go, I'm wondering what. What would you tell our listeners who maybe have that sort of gut feeling that you were talking about when we first started talking and don't know what to do or how to take action, what would you tell those. Those people who I'm assuming are mostly women but don't want to, you know.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah, yeah. Very, very simple. Very, very simple. Believe yourself. Believe yourself. Yourself is not lying to yourself. If your body is giving you signals, if your body is saying red flag, if your body is sounding an alarm bell, if your body is telling you something is wrong or broken or in trouble, you are not lying to yourself. Stop gaslighting yourself. So when you have that sense and everyone listening knows what I'm talking about, we know what that is. We don't want to know what that is. We don't. We don't want to admit it. We don't want someone else to know what we think. We don't. We fear the cost of admitting that thing or telling the truth about that thing, but we still know that thing. So whether you admit it or not, what's true is still true. So if something's broken, it's broken whether you say it is or isn't. And so there's a cost. One way or another. You're either going to tell the truth and move into alignment and integrity and then figure out how to manage the disruption that will cause, which it often does, or you will. You're already paying the cost to stay. You're paying the cost. It's not free. You are paying the cost. It's at the expense of your piece, your joy, your possibility, your happiness, your well being, your mental health. There's a cost one way or another.

[Elise Hu]

So pick, absolutely pick.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Do you want to pay it now with your silence, or do you want to pay it later in freedom? And I am here to tell you, pay it in freedom. It is a smaller cost than the one you're paying now. Believe yourself.

[Elise Hu]

Jen Hatmaker, everybody.

[Dori Shafrier]

That's a beautiful note to end on. Yeah, Jen, do you have any events coming up or anything you want to kind of mention or plug?

[Jen Hatmaker]

I just finished an absolute foot on the gas book tour and so I am in. I am staring down a season of rest and recovery. I just got back from Ireland and Scotland for 10 days with my boyfriend Tyler and all of our best friends. And, and, and I am thrilled about it. I am thrilled about, like a slower. That here comes winter, like a cozier, quieter season of rest after what feels like a job well done. And I'm no stranger to hard work. I love hard work and I appreciate it. And getting to be on a book tour is a writer's dream, so I'm not complaining. It's not complaints, but no, I have nothing to plug. I am, I. I am taking off Friday at noon.

[Dori Shafrier]

Amazing.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I am having brunch on the weekends with my friends and if I can sneak in a nap on Saturday, I'm here for it.

[Elise Hu]

Fantastic. Jen Hatmaker, thank you so much. Thanks for coming back on.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Thanks for having me back, you guys.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, Jen was delightful and I see, like, she's just so engaging.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. If you want to hear more, Jen, there's her Forever 35 questionnaire, which we're going to put out tomorrow. We put out the Forever 35 questionnaire on Tuesdays, and she answers questions like the candle she just lit and the book that she's recommending to everyone, which is a book that I am now going to get into. So tune in tomorrow on our Patreon if you want to hear more.

[Dori Shafrier]

Jen, Elise, did you put up your Christmas decor? Sounds like you didn't. Based on halfway. Yes, yes.

[Elise Hu]

Like, there's a wreath on the door. There's Christmas lights outside the house. But then I didn't do the candy lane walkway. I usually do, like, a little lit, you know, candy. We have candy cane lights, you know, and we do a little walkway up to the house. Haven't done that yet because I got a bunch of texts from Roblums saying, how do you want these candy canes? And then I didn't want to actually put in the mental load of directing how the candy canes went up. So I was just like, whatever, we just won't do them right now. It's a stressful time of year.

[Dori Shafrier]

Wow. He really wants to art direct this whole thing.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jen Hatmaker]

He's.

[Elise Hu]

You know what he would be really good at is staging homes. He, like, really likes that kind of thing. So anyway, they're half up. I'm getting there. So for my next intention, it's. You know what my next intention should be? It should not be related to the holidays at all. I'm going to set an intention to say no to stuff. Say no more. No is a complete sentence. There's a lot of stuff coming up right now. There's a. We're being tapped left and right for venmoing for a teacher gift coach gift cookie exchange. Staying late for an hour for this. Having a kid stay late for an hour for something like this. Something else totally different. I'm just gonna say no to more things. I'm kind of tapped out. Kind of tapped. Oh, Doctors Without Borders showed up at my door yesterday. However, my charitable giving is, like, tapped out. So anyway, I'm gonna say no more. That's gonna be my intention. What about you, Dor? How are you doing with yours?

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, I said I was going to declutter my office. That did not happen, I'm sorry to say, which is a bummer. So I still need to do that this week. We're in, like, peak Hanukkah. Hanukkah started last night, and so just kind of getting through Hanukkah. Through Hanukkah.

[Elise Hu]

We're doing it this year at our house since Rob lives with us now. And though issa had this phase where she wanted to celebrate Hanukkah when she was younger. So we already had a menorah here. And this is like when she was 4 or 5. But now Rob has this like very avant garde looking menorah that he's. And I was like, is this what we're going to use? And he's like, it is a menorah. Even though you wouldn't be able to tell. It's very abstract. I mean, it's not like what I imagined. So anyway, happy Hanukkah to all.

[Dori Shafrier]

Happy Hanukkah to me.

[Elise Hu]

I'm going to show this to you. I'm going to show this to you. You're going to be like, okay, okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

I can't wait. Well, listeners, thank you so much. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafriar and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners, acast. We will talk to you soon. Take care.

[Elise Hu]

Happy holidays.

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[Jen Hatmaker]

Get [e-mail] Hannah Berner are those the.

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[Jen Hatmaker]

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[Jen Hatmaker]

So nothing for your bestie?

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[Jen Hatmaker]

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