Forever35 Episode 382: Come Away Corrupted with Dr. Meghan Sullivan
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Dr. Meghan Sullivan, Professor of Philosophy (University of Notre Dame)
Release Date: December 22, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Forever35 co-hosts Doree and Elise sit down with Dr. Meghan Sullivan—a dynamic Notre Dame philosophy professor dubbed "the most interesting philosopher you'll ever hear." Together, they tackle what it means to live a good life, why philosophy still matters, and how ancient wisdom applies to modern problems like burnout, meaning, and parenting. Through approachable and often humorous conversation, the episode explores self-care, virtue ethics, the value of the humanities, and the real ways philosophical thinking can help us navigate messy, complicated lives.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Introducing Dr. Meghan Sullivan (16:38)
- Doree and Elise express excitement about interviewing their first official philosopher.
- Dr. Sullivan jokes, "Isn't everyone a philosopher?" but predicts listeners may end up grateful they aren't philosophers by episode’s end.
Dr. Sullivan’s Evening Self-Care Routine
[17:29]
- Dr. Sullivan shares her self-care: “I am a morning person… my self-care routine happens in the evening. I go to bed at, like, I start going to bed at 8PM. I change into pajamas, take a shower, light some scented candles… By 8:45 max, I have transitioned into going to bed... I just love that feeling.”
- Even while traveling, she keeps this wind-down routine (minus the candles, "because that gets you in trouble with hotels").
2. How Dr. Sullivan Became a Philosopher (19:16)
- Grew up in Greensboro, North Carolina, not from an academic family.
- Got "shuffled" into an Intro to Ethics college class—“within a week, that was my all-time favorite class.”
- Originally intended to become a lawyer; a “miserable” legal internship changed that.
- A philosophy professor encouraged her to pursue what she loved, leading to a fulfilling academic career.
3. Why Philosophy Still Matters for Students Today
[22:36]
Dr. Sullivan on the value of philosophy:
“A human person is so much more than just their job… there are other components of a good life that are just as important: growing in your understanding of yourself, learning how to genuinely love other people, figuring out what you stand for… Philosophy is a gift that we give… to access these aspects of the good life.”
- Philosophy’s value lies not in conversion (even at a Catholic university!) but in helping students become well-rounded, reflective people.
4. Inside ‘God and the Good Life’ – Corrupting the Youth
[25:19]
-
Dr. Sullivan’s most popular course aims to “corrupt the youth”—a reference to Socrates’ infamous charge.
-
The course tackles ten “good life” topics:
- Politics ("the easiest")
- Money
- Responsibility
- Work
- Love
- Religion/faith
- Leaps of faith and decision-making
- Suffering
- The role of ‘just being’
- Death (“the hardest one”)
Quote (Dr. Sullivan, 25:19):
“We want every student who takes the class to come away corrupted… Over 14 weeks, we tackle questions about the good life in increasing level of difficulty… By the end [students] have thought really deeply about these 10 big questions—ending with the hardest one: death.”
5. Living in a Post-Truth Era (and What Plato Would Say)
[29:16]
- Elise asks how Plato would approach contemporary “bullshitting” and seemingly endless arguing.
- Dr. Sullivan explains how ancient Athens, with its innovation of democracy, developed a culture of “debate coaches” (Sophists) that prioritized persuasion over truth.
- Socrates rebelled against this, and Plato lost faith in democracy after Athens executed Socrates for “corrupting the youth.”
Quote (Dr. Sullivan, 32:00):
“If you pay [the Sophists] enough money, they will teach you to be convincing about absolutely anything… Socrates comes on the scene… and destroys their arguments and embarrasses them… This ultimately is what gets him into trouble… and they kill him.”
- Plato's warnings about democracy and persuasion echo contemporary concerns about post-truth politics.
6. Philosophy and Modern Problems: Burnout and Meaning (37:35)
Burnout & Work-Life Balance
- Virtue ethics suggests burnout isn’t just about poorly allocated time, but about a “lack of meaning in work.”
- Time management tricks (Pomodoro, rigid dials) are insufficient.
- Flourishing at work connects to personal meaning—not just hours worked.
- Managers have a philosophical responsibility: “My key job as a manager… is to help each person see the meaning of their contribution.”
Quote (Dr. Sullivan, 41:18):
“Burnout is not necessarily about the dials being mis-set, but fundamentally about a lack of meaning in work.”
On Parenting and the Perfectionism of Modern Childhood (42:27)
- Parenting is deeply meaningful but often not “pleasant in the moment.”
- Addresses the hyper-competitive culture around kids’ activities—says it leads to burnout for parents and kids, especially in higher income, achievement-focused communities.
- Argues for more “leisure”—unstructured, simply enjoyable time (citing philosopher Joseph Pieper).
7. Listener Q: Happiness, Meaning, and the Choice to Have Kids (47:37)
- Listener: “What does it mean to be happy, and is happiness necessary to have a meaningful life? Has your idea of happiness or meaning changed as you’ve aged?”
- Dr. Sullivan distinguishes between “feeling happy” and “flourishing” (the latter, from Aristotle, being deeper and harder).
- Re: Having children—philosophers debate if it’s essential; it’s “one of the very few philosophical questions where actually every way you reason towards an answer could… be compatible with flourishing.”
Quote (Dr. Sullivan, 48:25):
“Feeling happy is different from flourishing… Flourishing is something you can only do late in life, after you’ve grown for a while. No young person is flourishing…”
- Her concept of meaning has shifted with age—less focused on milestones, more on contentment and “the great and meaningful that’s just given to you.”
Quote (Dr. Sullivan, 53:10):
“There are aspects of happiness that don’t require you to do anything… so much of life that’s great and meaningful, that’s just given to you.”
8. Dr. Sullivan’s Philosophical Alignment: Virtue Ethics (56:13)
- Explains virtue ethics, the approach of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and central to the Catholic tradition:
- Humans are inherently valuable, can develop in good or bad ways.
- Life’s work is growing towards goodness with the help of others.
- “The real meaning of life is that work of growth.”
Quote (Dr. Sullivan, 56:13):
“Virtue ethics says… there’s something inherently valuable about being a human being. We are what is really valuable in this world… Our life’s work is to grow in the good ways and to try to avoid growing in the bad ways. And we don’t do it alone.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “We want every student who takes the class to come away corrupted… You've been touched and moved by [philosophy].” (Dr. Meghan Sullivan, 25:19)
- “Philosophy is a gift that we give… to access these aspects of the good life that, if you only come to college to prepare for a career, you might miss out on.” (Dr. Sullivan, 23:09)
- “[Socrates] decides he’s going to start always causing… going around asking people, ‘Do I know what’s true?’… and they kill him.” (Dr. Sullivan, 32:35)
- “Burnout is not necessarily about the dials being mis-set, but fundamentally about a lack of meaning in work.” (Dr. Sullivan, 41:18)
- “There are aspects of happiness that don’t require you to do anything… just great and meaningful that’s given to you, and you don’t have to earn it or fight about it.” (Dr. Sullivan, 53:10)
- “There’s no topic that philosophy is not relevant to. I dare you to try to find a topic that I cannot make philosophy relevant to.” (Dr. Sullivan, 59:39)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [16:38] Dr. Sullivan’s introduction and evening self-care ritual
- [19:16] Sullivan’s journey into philosophy
- [22:36] The relevance of philosophy in modern education
- [25:19] "Corrupt the youth"—inside the 'God and the Good Life' course
- [29:16] The post-truth era—Plato, sophists, and modern misinformation
- [37:35] Burnout and the search for meaning in work
- [42:27] Parenting, perfectionism, and the need for leisure
- [47:37] Listener Q: happiness vs. flourishing, kids, and meaning
- [56:13] Dr. Sullivan on virtue ethics—her core philosophy
Episode Tone & Style
The tone is lively, curious, irreverent, and warm. Dr. Sullivan makes philosophy “folksy” and accessible, rich with story and humor. The hosts’ style is self-aware and open, often reflecting candidly on their own lives and struggles.
Additional Notes
- Dr. Sullivan’s book: The Good Life Method: Reasoning Through the Big Questions of Happiness, Faith, and Meaning (Penguin Press, co-author Paul Blaschko) offers exercises for bringing philosophy into your own life.
- Dr. Sullivan can be found at Notre Dame (ethics.nd.edu).
- Podcast ends with the hosts reflecting on boundaries, self-care through the holidays, and intentions for the new year.
For Listeners
If you’re interested in using philosophical tools to tackle big life questions—meaning, work, love, and parenting—this episode offers an inspiring and concrete start. Dr. Sullivan’s blend of classic wisdom and modern relevance makes ancient philosophy feel approachable, practical, and deeply needed in turbulent times.