Episode 388: Lasting Change Within Us with Maya Shankar

Summary

Forever35, Episode 388: “Lasting Change Within Us with Maya Shankar”

Release Date: February 9, 2026
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Dr. Maya Shankar, cognitive scientist, host of A Slight Change of Plans, and author of The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans

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Episode Overview

This heartfelt and insightful episode features Elise Hu in a candid, deep conversation with Dr. Maya Shankar about personal transformation, the psychology of change, and the unexpected gifts that emerge from life’s disruptions. Drawing from her new book and personal experiences, Dr. Shankar shares practical strategies and moving stories that shed light on how we can process unexpected change and use it to foster meaningful personal growth. The discussion also explores the power of community, compassion, and identity amid life's uncertainties.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Dr. Maya Shankar and Her New Book

• [06:42] Dr. Shankar is introduced as a cognitive scientist with impressive credentials, including work in the Obama White House, the UN, and being a former violin prodigy under Itzhak Perlman at Juilliard.
• [08:30] Her book, The Other Side of Change, debuted at #2 on the NYT bestseller list. Maya expresses her excitement and recounts a friendly connection with the author ranked above her.

Notable Quote

“I messaged her on Instagram...I binge listened to your book the last two days and she was so sweet. And then we got to be book buddies on the list.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar [10:14]

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2. Self-Care in the Midst of Change

• [10:24] Maya discusses her commitment to 8-10 hours of sleep as her essential self-care practice, especially during the exhausting book tour circuit.
• [11:43] Elise shares her own goal of walking her kids to school to connect more intentionally with her family and start her day grounded.

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3. Why Write About Change? Tackling the Fear of Uncertainty

• [16:39] Maya admits her book stems from her own fear of change and dislike of unpredictability.
• References a study showing people prefer certainty about even negative outcomes over uncertainty:

  “We are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance.” — Dr. Maya Shankar [16:39]

• Aim: Provide actionable science-based advice and real-life stories to help people navigate disruption, not just platitudes like, "You can control your reaction."

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4. How Change Alters Identity and Internal Narrative

• [18:52] When major change strikes, we forget that it also changes us internally, and we often underestimate our own adaptability and growth.
• Example: Elise and Maya discuss how personal upheavals (divorce, medical diagnosis) felt shattering at the time but ultimately led to gratitude and new perspectives.

Notable Quote

“When a big change happens to us, it can also lead to lasting change within us...the unique stresses and demands of your new situation will unlock new abilities and perspectives...”
— Dr. Maya Shankar [18:52]

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5. Individual Differences and Common Threads in Coping with Change

• [21:04] Maya illustrates, using the story of two climbers taken hostage, that facing the same crisis can lead to very different life interpretations and outcomes.
• [23:34] Despite the variance, “there is more that unites us in these moments than separates us.” Shared psychological frameworks mean we can learn from a diversity of stories, not just from those who have experienced our exact plight.

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6. Practical Strategies for Navigating and Metabolizing Change

• [23:34] The book distills science-backed strategies for reframing and processing change:
  • Intentionally challenge rigid beliefs.
  • Be mindful of your framing and the narratives you construct.
  • Find value in relatable lessons across seemingly unrelated stories.
• [26:59] Maya notes: Lessons from seemingly unrelated change stories (from illness to betrayal) often resonate because of common psychological challenges.

Notable Quote

“If you can have a slightly more open mind and invite stories in that don't look at all like yours, you might be surprised by how much you learn.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar [26:59]

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7. Community and Compassion After Loss or Transition

• [27:45] During her book launch, Maya is hit with personal tragedy—reminding her that insight does not “inoculate” anyone from pain.
• Community becomes crucial: opening up to others disrupts negative internal narratives and helps healing.
• Maya shares her struggle with infertility and miscarriage, and how connecting with loved ones poked holes in the story she told herself about failure and identity.

Notable Quote

“It was only in actually communicating...with my loved ones that I started to see, you know, Maya, maybe this story you're constructing isn't really accurate, and maybe it's gonna be holding you back.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar [31:07]

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8. Initiating vs. Receiving Change: Foreseeing the Unexpected

• [31:58] We often try to plan for change, but behavioral science shows humans are poor “affective forecasters”—bad at predicting our future feelings and reactions.
• Advice: Enter intentional change (e.g., quitting a job, ending a relationship) with humility and curiosity. Be mindful of unexpected “spillover effects.”
• Example: A sought-after promotion brings unforeseen changes in relationships and identity at work.

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9. Identity Beyond the Labels

• [37:06] Major changes can threaten our deeply held identities (e.g., Maya losing her identity as a violinist after injury, her hopes for motherhood after miscarriages).
• She urges listeners to untether identity from external labels (“what you do”) and instead root it in the “why”—the underlying purpose or passion that can persist through life’s changes.

Notable Quote

“Ask yourself, what is your why? What makes you love the things you love to do? ...that can be stable in the face of change. Life can't take that passion away from you.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar [40:16]

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Memorable Moments

• Maya recounts her “TED vortex fugue state” and how she found comfort in knowing even a free solo climber (Alex Honnold) got nervous before his big talk. [15:15]
• Candid discussion of the emotional aftermath of repeated miscarriages and how sharing grief opened Maya to new perspectives and support. [31:07–31:58]
• A story of unexpected solidarity and camaraderie between bestselling authors via Instagram DMs. [09:50–10:14]
• The hosts get personal about parental guilt, dog hospitalization, and vitamin routines, underscoring the show’s signature mix of humor and vulnerability. [04:36, 41:35]

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Actionable Takeaways

• Prioritize your self-care needs (e.g., honoring your unique sleep needs, intentional routines).
• Embrace humility and curiosity—especially when initiating change.
• Be open to learning from all stories of change, not just those mirroring your own experience.
• Anchor your identity to your underlying ‘why’ instead of rigid external labels.
• Allow community into your healing process and resist isolating yourself during hardship.

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Important Timestamps

• 08:30 – Maya’s book success and author camaraderie
• 10:24–11:09 – Sleep as the ultimate self-care
• 16:39 – Fear of change and the psychology of uncertainty
• 18:52 – The transformative effect of change on identity
• 21:04–22:18 – Different responses to the same trauma
• 23:34 – Science-backed strategies and the universality of change
• 27:45 – Maya’s personal tragedy and the role of community
• 31:07 – Letting others into your sorrow changes the narrative
• 31:58 – Initiating change and affective forecasting
• 37:06 – Grieving lost identities; redefining self after loss
• 40:16 – Why-based identity as a stabilizing force

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Final Thoughts

This episode exemplifies Forever35’s blend of warmth, humor, and deep self-reflection. Dr. Maya Shankar deftly dismantles the myth that resilience to change is innate, and instead offers hope: that resilience is built, and growth happens—in the most unexpected ways—when we open ourselves to community, perspective, and a deeper understanding of our own “why.”

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Find Dr. Maya Shankar:

• Instagram: @drmayashankar
• Podcast: A Slight Change of Plans
• Book: The Other Side of Change (available wherever books are sold)

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Listen to more episodes/learn more:
forever35podcast.com
Patreon for ad-free episodes & community

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Transcript

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

I get it.

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dora Lori Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Welcome to the show. Today we have a very special guest that only Elise interviewed.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, we had some scheduling trouble and so I had the pleasure of sitting down with Maya Shankar, who is a cognitive scientist and wrote a New York Times bestselling book that just came out fairly recently called the Other side of Change. Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans. I had a really great time chatting with her Dora. I updated Dory after I talked with her, just kind of to catch up. Because we ended up talking, we had to reschedule a few times. We ended up talking on, like, a Friday afternoon. And it sent me with great vibes into the weekend.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

I just. We really connected because I don't think we do a lot of interviews, like, right at the tail end of a Friday. And I know that for me, anything way. I can often be kind of, like, eager to just go play tennis or do something else and not be working at my computer anymore. But it was really a pleasure to have this conversation with Dr. Maya.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

And that's really cool.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And she's been through it. And part of the reason why she became so interested in kind of who we become when major life events happen, like a surprising diagnosis or the loss of a loved one, like, what happens after is because she's been through it herself. So that was really good. So that's coming up in a few minutes after we catch up.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Yeah. What's been going on with you, Lyse?

[Elise Hu]

We are allowing the dog to heal and convalesce again after his latest surgery. Yes, that's right, folks. Oscar had to have major abdominal surgery again because my dumb dog decided to eat a stuffed animal that's the size of a fist again. Swallow it whole, not even chew it. Got stuck in his intestine. They could not medically manage it to get into his colon, so they cut into his intestine for the second time in his young life. He hasn't been alive for 18 months. And he's had three surgeries now. The two open abdominal surgeries and then the one neutering. So I'm just shaking my head slowly. Nobody can see me. But I am over it. I'm over the financial and emotional toll of it.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

I take personal responsibility, of course, for him getting to this object. And I don't know how he got it, but obviously, you know, it existed in the home somewhere that he got to, despite him being gated in a confined, small kitchen area and being crated at night. Like, I just don't even know where he got it. I can't. I have no idea. The other two times that he has been hospitalized, he was under the care of other people. And so I could be like, well, my mom was watching him right. Now.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

You don't have an excuse.

[Elise Hu]

I have no idea where this object even came from. I don't even know if it. We own it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't Recognize it as a toy. That's.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Oh, wow.

[Elise Hu]

One of the children's.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

That is pretty crazy.

[Elise Hu]

But he swallows things whole, which makes it very easy to give him medication because he doesn't consider what he's putting in his mouth.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Oh, that's interesting. Okay.

[Elise Hu]

But it makes it terrible for everything else.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

All right, well, Elise, let's introduce our guest.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Because I'm a little traumatized, and she helps us process trauma. Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist and the creator of the podcast A Slight Change of Plans, previously named Best show of the Year by Apple. She served as a senior policy advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and chaired the social and behavioral sciences team. She was also appointed as the first behavioral science advisor to the United Nations. So she's very accomplished. She has a BA from Yale and a PhD from Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar and completed a postdoctoral fellowship in cognitive neuroscience at Stanford. She's been profiled by a bunch of places. She was a featured neuroscience expert on National Geographic. And. And this is something very cool about her. She's a former violin student of. It's at Perlman at Juilliard.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

That's really cool.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She talks about being a violinist in. In her youth and the change that she had to endure after a. A diagnosis. So I don't want to get too much into it, but you're about to find out, folks.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

All right, and before we get to Dr. Shanker, just a reminder that you can Visit our website, forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram at february35podcast. Our patreon [e-mail] forever35. We have our weekly casual chats, our monthly pop culture recommendation episodes. We have different chats going on now in the Patreon. Elise, thank you for organizing those. Do you want to tell everyone quickly what those are?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. So I reconciled a lot of chats about pop culture that we previously organized by month. And so now there's three major ones. One is, like the general chat. All our members can pop in and chat anytime and call out whatever you want, give us feedback on the show. Then there's the pop culture chat, where you just all share music and books and movies that we love, and it helps inform some of the pop culture episodes. You know, the podcast episodes that we record per month on the Patreon. And then now we have a just like, hey, I'm looking for this kind of chat.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

And again, that'[e-mail] Forever35. You can also get ad free episodes on our Patreon. Our favorite products are at shopmy us/forever35. And you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com. And here is Dr. Maya Shanker.

[Elise Hu]

Dr. Maya Shankar. Thank you for coming on the show. It's so nice to be in conversation with you.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Thank you for having me, Elise. Appreciate it.

[Elise Hu]

And congratulations. Your book, the Other side of who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans debuted on the New York Times bestseller list at number two.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah, totally wild stuff. Could not believe it.

[Elise Hu]

I have to know. Who was. Who were you just behind? Who were you the runner up to?

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Oh, this amazing author, Bell Burden.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yes, her divorce memoir.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yes, I gobbled it up. I listened to that. While I was supposed to be prepping for my book tour, I was listening to Belle's book. So.

[Elise Hu]

That's so wild.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

It's amazing.

[Elise Hu]

So many moms have been telling me about that book. Like when I'm on the sidelines of a volleyball game or. And then I was at a cocktail party the other night and I was with an old friend of mine and he was like, did you know my college ex girlfriend's book is number one nonfiction bestseller on the New York Times? And I was like, what is it? And he's like, oh, it's her divorce memoir, Strangers.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

I love that. That's very fun.

[Elise Hu]

I clearly need to read it. I feel like the universe is.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

I read some review that was basically like, people in part just want to be reassured that rich people have problems too.

[Elise Hu]

That must be it. That must be it.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

They come from affluence.

[Elise Hu]

So yes, she's from the Paley family, you know.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Okay, but.

[Elise Hu]

But I feel like that book at number one and yours at number two are a great one, two punch.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

It's definitely a compatible pairing. So I was actually, I messaged her on Instagram because before any of the New York Times thing, I just was a fan of her book. And I, I love also just, you know, sending nice thoughts to female authors and reading for them. And so I just said, Belle, I just want you to know I've. I binge listened to your book the last two days and she was so sweet. And then we got to be book buddies on the list.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, that's great. Well, let's jump in to you and the first question that we ask on this show is what are you doing lately that you would consider self care?

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

I have very high sleep needs So I need eight to ten hours a night to really feel great. And for my whole life I've had to prioritize this. You know, I always marvel at people that can get away with they feel good on six hours. And I'm so envious that they can feel good on six hours. I feel like I was hit by a freight train when I get six hours. And so what's been difficult with my book tour was with the, with the changing time zones for morning shows. They have early call times. I've just been a little bit outside of my comfort zone when it comes to how much sleep I'm getting. And so I've been really sleeping a lot since I returned home, which has been nice.

[Elise Hu]

Are you able to be a daytime sleeper? Like, do you nap?

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Well, I, I do nap and naps are super refreshing for me. So that quick 20 minute one can totally restore my day and help me be a productive member of society.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, love that. That's good. So you know what your body needs and you have the have the way around it.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah. I'm curious what, what you've been doing recently that you would call self care.

[Elise Hu]

That's a good question. And I'm always, I, I'm always surprised when we have our podcast host guests ask me questions. Cause I'm like, oh my gosh, it's very nerve wracking to be on the other side of the mic.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

I'm just curious.

[Elise Hu]

One thing that I've been trying to do is walk my kids to school instead of just send them out the door in the morning. That's because, yeah, we live close enough to walk to school, but I think that the mornings are so harried and also for me, because I have other things on my mind. I have books I want to read, I have interviews to conduct. There's all sorts of things. And I think that I can take a very sort of self centered kind of approach to my day, first thing. And so what I'm trying to do is just, if I actually walk the kids to school, I am both outside and I'm connecting with my family members, you know, and so if I can do that, I Almost always like 99.9% of the time feel better and yet I don't always do it. And so that is something I am trying to be more intentional about. Yeah. Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

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[Elise Hu]

I wanted to mention to you that you won't remember this now because you had just gotten off stage or you were about to go on stage, but we actually met in the makeup room at TED in Vancouver. Before or after your talk? I'm guessing before because you were pretty like you know how right before your TED Talk and I'm fortunate enough and privileged enough to have also given a TED Talk before. And it's just like everything. You're in kind of this vortex fugue state.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

So I think I met you when you were in your vortex fugue state or when you just gotten off stage and it was just like I can finally exhale. But I remember having a conversation with you then and thinking, oh, I want to talk with you for my other podcast, my TED Podcast, because I host the TED Talks Daily Show.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

I would love to do that. I'm such an avid listener of TED Talks Daily, so.

[Elise Hu]

Oh great. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

You know, it's so funny, the TED Talk because they, they don't let you use any notes or any bullet points or anything. You sort of had to commit the whole talk to memory. So 15 minutes of content has to be in your head. And despite the fact that I was a violinist as a kid and can memorize long pieces with no problem, I really struggle as an adult to memorize speeches. Right. That's a really hard thing for my brain. And so I was really getting into my head and getting quite anxious about this. And then I forget who it was who told me it might have been Adam Grant, who was at TED the year we were there as well. He's a friend of mine. He said the previous year, Alex Hunnell, the free soloist, was so nervous before his TED Talk, he started so scaling the exterior of the building. He was climbing it as stress relief. And so I felt, I felt comforted that even Alex got a little bit nervous. And also.

[Elise Hu]

And Batman just free soloed one of the tallest buildings in the world. Taipei 101.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Taipei 101. Crazy. Anyway, so that made me feel better about not being able to sleep well the night before the TED Talk.

[Elise Hu]

That stage is humbling to all of us. And your talk, there's. Since you committed it to memory, is.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Forgotten it now, a lot of it.

[Elise Hu]

Is the basis of this book, this bestselling book and its central idea. So why don't you lay that out for us? Just kind of elevator speech.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Fundamentally, I wrote the Other side of Change because I'm really scared of change. And I feel like I'm not great at dealing with it. And so when you suck at something, it can become of academic interest to try to figure out how to do it better. And one of the many reasons why I struggle with change is that I don't like the lack of control that accompanies change. I don't like the lack of certainty that accompanies change. One of the studies that I talked about in my TED Talk is one of my all time favorites because I resonate so much with it. But it basically says that we are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance. So we would rather be certain that a bad thing's gonna happen than to have to grapple with any uncertainty. So I was so eager to try to try to pair stories and science to give us a guide that I felt I needed during the hardest moments of change in my life. Because I would always hear this refrain that while you can't control what happens to you. You can control your reaction to what happens. And it's meant to sound good, it's meant to be empowering, but I have had no idea how to execute on that. I'm like, okay, it sounds good, but how the heck do I actually think and feel differently about these moments of disruption? And so my goal with this book was to actually give people that resource so that when they are either in the throes of a change or processing a past change or trying to get ahead of a future one, they know what the right science fact strategies are to use. They know the right thought experiments, the right questions to be asking. And also they have the wisdom that we can extract from people's real stories of change so that they can build this helpful armor around them and can be more resilient when the inevitable curveball gets thrown their way.

[Elise Hu]

And how timely, because it feels like we're living in this time of relentless chaos where there are curveballs daily and many of them devastating or horrifying and really rocking sort of the foundation of what we thought were, say, the fabric of society or the fabric of our government.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

In the face of such relentless change that we cannot control, how do we cope?

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

It's such a great question. We tend to forget that when a big change happens to us, it can also lead to lasting change within us. So when we predict how we will respond to any given change, we imagine our present day selves navigating that whole experience and we feel really daunted, like, I can't possibly go through this. This is not something I am capable of navig. And I think there's something so hopeful in remembering in those moments that you will become a different person. On the other side of change, the unique stresses and demands of your new situation will unlock new abilities and perspectives and values and ideas about yourself and the world that actually make you much better poised to navigate that moment. And it's funny, right? Right before the call, you were telling me about navigating a divorce in your late 30s, right?

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

And how it was really hard in the moment. But now looking back, you're so grateful for that change. And you probably have perspectives today, Elise, that you couldn't have imagined having in that moment. And that is the promise of change. It can reveal to us parts of ourselves that were previously hidden from view. Whether it's a belief system that's holding us back, or an idea we have about who we are, or a self limiting thought we have about what we're capable of. We can free ourselves from those thought patterns. We can also actively work towards tapping into new abilities, and then we can become better versions of ourself. I mean, it's no accident that I called my book the Other side of Change. It's just a nod to the fact that the different person we become might really impress us. It might fill us with some awe.

[Elise Hu]

Is there a difference in how we handle the change, though, and how we process it? Because presented with the same, say, devastating disaster, you know, say, say a house burns down, and this is wildfire central here. Say, say somebody's house burns down, how do the ways that we actually process that or make meaning of an event have an effect on how they change us either towards flourishing or towards, you know, languishing?

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

It's such. It's such a terrific question that speaks to my heart because on the one hand, there's so many universalities embedded into the experience of change. One of the themes that I explore in the Other side of change, you know, what is the stuff of change that we kind of all have to deal with? Whether it's a fear, the unknown, or grieving, a lost identity, or being anxious about what the future may bring, those things tend to be shared among people navigating change. But then, of course, there are so many idiosyncrasies. And one of the reasons why I feature so many different stories in the book is that I want people to get insight into how different people might react differently to any given circumstance. And the reason it speaks to my heart, though, is because on my podcast, a Slight change of plans, I actually pressure tested this. I had interviewed years ago, a climber named Tommy Caldwell who had gone on this climbing mission in Kyrgyzstan and was captured and held hostage and was on the brink of death at a certain point. And it was a harrowing trip. And thankfully he returned back to the US Safely. He had been with his girlfriend at the time, and I was. I had read both their memoirs and they had markedly different reactions.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

The same experience of being held captive and having to face all of this anxiety and fear, and the lessons they took away from those experiences were markedly different. And so last year I got the opportunity to interview Beth Rawden, who again, was also on that trip. But based on their reactions to the experience and the meaning they drew from it, you would have thought they went on totally different expeditions and had a totally different experience. And so, as a cognitive scientist, I'm just fascinated by all of it. I'm fascinated about the stuff that unifies us. I'M fascinated by the stuff that differs when it comes to our reactions. But overall, I do think there's more that unites us in these moments than separates us. And in a moment of deep divide, right when we are feeling very disconnected from other humans, that has been an uplifting belief for me to have.

[Elise Hu]

There's something really encouraging about that, I think. You know, I guess to drill down a little further, I'm curious what you learned, you know, in all your research and talking to so many people who have experienced unexpected change, are there any overarching lessons that you learned about metabolizing it or processing it in a way that is actually helpful and helps us grow?

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah. In fact, the entire book, the Other side of Change, is devoted to. Yeah, are the lessons. Exactly. Because I do think there are some intentions, intentional choices we can make about the way that we frame the world or interpret an experience or challenge our beliefs that makes it more likely that we will have a more positive, resilient response in the face of the unthinkable. And by and large, while the people that I interviewed were not happy about what happened to them, understandably, who would invite illness or heartbreak into their lives willingly, they were deeply grateful for the person they became as a result of the change they went through. So for the people I interviewed, it unlocked newfound confidence or clarity or self assurance, or a new a renewed relationship with their family, or a different way of thinking about their past, or a refreshing way of thinking about their future. Right. And then the other thing that I wanted to say, which harkens back to an earlier question of yours, is that in the years that I've spent hosting a slight change of plans, I kept getting struck by these common themes that were emerging out of people's change stories. And in some ways, that was a motivation for me to write the Other side of Change. Because I realized something so curious, which was in our society, when something. When we're going through something hard. So let's say I'm navigating an illness. You are navigating a divorce. Common wisdom advice is to say, oh, Elise, I've got a friend who just went through a divorce. You should talk to them. Or Maya, go to the bereave part of the bookstore. Go to the chronic illness part of the bookstore. That's where you're gonna find answers. That's where you're going to find wisdom. Right. And I want to challenge that notion. I think because we have a shared psychology as humans, there are many lessons that we can learn from people whose stories don't look at all like our own, but the challenges they're running up against psychologically and the solutions that they use to navigate those challenges are very resonant and they're much more similar to how our minds work or what we hope to do in the face of this change. And so to give you a concrete example, I remember that a cancer patient, this young healthy guy who got a stage 4 bone cancer diagnosis out of the clear blue sky in his early 30s, and then a woman who found out that her deceased husband had had a decades long affair were both having to deal with an acute feeling of betrayal. One felt their body had betrayed them, one felt that their late husband had betrayed them. And they had so much in common in terms of what they went through. And I do think there's something very encouraging in this sort of insight, which is we tend to again, feel like we need to surround ourselves with people who are just like us or who have gone through exactly what we've gone through. But if you can have a slightly more open mind and invite stories in that don't look at all like yours, you might be surprised by how much you learn. In fact, one of my favorite pieces of feedback on the Other side of Change. People have read it somewhat early, have told me it was so surprising to me because, you know, I read about the woman who lost all her memories, or I read about the guy who faced a prison sentence, or I read about the woman who got locked in syndrome. And I have not had anything like those people. But those are the stories that I found were most relatable in terms of the lesson that emerged from them. So that's been so gratifying and exciting as an author.

[Elise Hu]

And that's also a big meta insight, I think, of your book and of your research. Right. We've talked about the ways that change can really help us individually, but and navigating change and what we get out of change for ourselves. But what can the other side of change do to connect us better with one another? Because one thing that I think is an important thing to talk about that we don't enough is that after we go through something that's an unexpected diagnosis or grief or something like that, it really deepens our wells of compassion for each other and kind of that shared humanity, I think that makes life really meaningful as well. So what did you find on that side of it, on the community side of things?

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Community is so vital and something that was so unexpected for me, Elise, is that in the month before the book launched, when I was trying to get into this optimistic state, you know, going on the road, telling people about this book, I got hit with tragedy in my life. I found out that my aunt's stage four cancer had returned for a third time. And that was devastating. And then there were other health issues. We were navigating within my family. And once again, I found myself reeling. And I think I just sort of naively believed I've written a book on change with all these insights, and so now I can wipe my hands clean. I'm done. You know, I talked about the changes I've been through in my book, and now we can just move forward with all this enlightened, you know, with. With all of this enlightenment. And of course, I was humbled again, right? And change came for me at a very inopportune time. And what was so interesting about the book tour and meeting people on the road and getting to. Getting to be in conversation with real humans, navigating change, is that I felt so much closer to everyone that I was talking to because I was in the throes of it. Exactly like you said, I was brought to tears at times during my book tour because I was hearing people's personal testimonials and I was sharing my own. And there was something so unifying and so beautiful about feeling connected with strangers because we were all suffering in this way. And I devote a section of the book to this. But being in community with others and having people who will buoy you and will celebrate your successes and embrace you when you fail, encourage you when you're feeling despair, that is such a critical part of healing and of getting to the other side. And another important role that community can play bringing people into your sorrow is that they can poke holes in the narratives that you've built around your story and yourself. I mean, to get personal for a second. The final chapter of the book is memoir. Unexpectedly, I was going through a bunch of change as I was writing the book. And I talk about the fact that my husband and I were not successful in our six or seven year journey to try to start a family. And I just remember shutting myself off to the world after. After the second miscarriage with our surrogate when we found out we had lost identical twin girls. I didn't want to talk to anyone for days. My family was reaching out, my close friends were reaching out. I basically told everyone, please don't call me, I don't want to talk to anyone. Which just. It was my instinct. I didn't want to let people into my pain. I didn't want to burden people with what I was going through. Even though I KN intellectually so many people could understand what I was going through, it didn't feel like they could. It felt exceptional in some way. And I really feel like I started to construct a narrative in my head around what this meant for my life and what a threat on my identity it was and how I could never be whole without having kids. It was all this stuff was building up. And it was only in actually communicating about this with my loved ones that I started to see, you know, Maya, maybe this story you're constructing isn't really accurate, and maybe it's gonna be holding you back. And I just think that was such a critical part for me, is opening up the dialogue.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And miscarriage in particular is so tricky because, you know, we're taught not to say anything until a certain threshold, you know, and so often when you're suffering a miscarriage, you're suffering in silence or in secret. And so that can make it so much more difficult. And you have talked about and written about your fertility journey and how much that transformed your ideas of your own ideas, identity, and your future, and. But then for fear of change, clung onto that former identity. Right. And then I think I clung on to my marriage probably longer than I should have. So a lot of changes that you write about are, of course, surprises, right? Like a natural disaster, like an unexpected diagnosis. But what if we have to decide to make the big change? How do we go about thinking that through?

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yes. So a couple things there. One, I am an inherent planner by nature, but we don't want to get ahead of ourselves too much with trying to predict how we'll feel about things, because decades of research in behavioral science shows we are very bad affective forecasters. So what this means is we're just bad at predicting how we will feel and think about future events. Sense we tend to overstate how good the good stuff will be. We tend to overstate how bad the bad stuff will be. And so, yeah, we're just really bad at getting it right when it comes to how things will change us. And so one piece of advice I give to people who are initiating a change, which is I think what you're asking is to approach the change with profound humility, because oftentimes, if we're initiating the change, we think, okay, this is a positive change, Right? Nothing to worry about here. But we forget that there will be all sorts of spillover effects from that isolated change. It doesn't operate in a vacuum. So, for example, let's say I'm really gunning for a promotion, right? And so I'm like, I'm talking to my boss. I'm like, okay, I want to go up this cycle and then I get the promotion. Oh my God. This is a change I willed and I initiated and I worked so hard for. It's easy to think, okay, I'm going to be me and everything's going to be exactly as it was, except it's going to be promoted, Maya. And so everything's great. But think about all the dynamic forces that are at play here, right? Your colleagues are maybe now different. The teams you work on are different. The teams you manage, your roles and responsibilities, your work life balance. Maybe people who are previously peers to you are now under you. And that's an awkward dynamic. You just don't know all the ways in which even the things we want for ourselves will affect our lives. And so I think having a little bit of curiosity and a little bit of humility to just observe, right? Oh, how is this change affecting me? Is it, is it affecting my, my psychology, maybe in counterproductive ways. And just being aware is one of your best friends in those moments.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Yeah, I love that. Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. Have you ever found the product you've been looking for online? The one you've been scouring the Internet Internet for. For hours or maybe even weeks. And then you get to the checkout and realize you have to create an account, enter your card info, do all the things just to finally check out. I've been there so many times. Compare that to the feeling you have when you see Shopify's purple button instead of jumping through those hoops. And Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. From household names like Rare Beauty and Thrive cosmetics to brands that are just getting started. On the flip side, if you have a business, Shopify can help you accelerate your efficiency. Whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones, Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, enhance your product photography. Best yet, it's your commerce expert. With world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping and processing returns. See fewer cards go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their shop pay button. Sign up with your $1 per month trial today at Shopify Forever 35. Go to shopify.com forever35. That's shopify.com forever35. If you've been traveling a lot over the holidays or busy as the new year begins, you know firsthand that takeout can take it out of you because nothing hits like home cooking and hellofresh makes it easy to do more of it this year with recipes that feel good and taste taste delicious night after night. You can turn on a little music, have the kids help make a fun time of it. You can choose from more than 35 high protein recipes each week including new Mediterranean and GLP1 friendly options feel great with wholesome ingredients like sustainably sourced seafood and 100% antibiotic and hormone free chicken. I just had some of that chicken in this chicken soup that we made this week with with all of our hellofresh ingredients and everything portioned out exactly perfectly. It is something that we have not only enjoyed on the first night but enjoyed as leftovers as well because when dinner tastes this good, nothing hits like home cooking. Go to hellofresh.com forever3510fm to get 10 free meals and a Freeze Willing knife which is a $144.99 value on your third box offer valid while supplies last free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. You've mentioned at the top that you have been just running around. You've been talking about this book, talking about your own life and your insights a lot on your book tour. I'm curious what you've learned while on tour and in conversation from other people. Have you heard kind of the same questions and what are those and what have you taken now that the book is out in the world?

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

One of the things that I focus on in the book is how a primary cause of destabilization in the face of change. How to make it simpler. One of the things I talk about in the book is that one of the biggest reasons change can be so scary is that it can threaten our self identity. And I felt that when I was a budding concert violinist as a kid with big dreams of becoming a professional and a hand injury ended those dreams in a moment. I felt this in my adult life when I was so eager to become a mom and did not achieve the dream of becoming a mom. In both those cases, I wasn't just grieving the loss of an instrument or the pregnancy losses. I was grieving the loss of an aspirational identity that meant so much to me. And I think what I learned, you know, let's take the violin for example, right? So to set the stage, I'm 15 years old, I'm studying at Juilliard under Itzhak Perlman, a renowned violinist. And then I had this hand injury, and doctors tell me, you can't play anymore. What was so curious about my grief is that I found myself not just longing for the violin, but also longing for the return of myself, because I felt in losing the violin, I lost this fundamental part of who I was. And it's taken me decades to learn a good lesson from all of that. But it can be very precarious for us to attach our identities too closely to what we do or to the roles or labels that we inhabit. I was a violinist, right? I was an aspiring mom. And then life can take those things away from you, right? They can take those roles or the what away from you. Instead, I've tried to focus on anchoring my identity to why I do things, not simply what I do. So to make this concrete, I asked myself, what is it that I loved about the violin? And at the root was. Was a love of human connection. I love being. Feeling closer to my fellow peeps, you know, like, I love having this conversation with you right now. And just because I lost the violin, which was a. Which was an instrument through which. No pun, to establish that kind of connection, didn't mean that I lost what led me to love it in the first place. There were many outlets through which I could feed this deep need for human connection within me. And it turns out that subconsciously, I've been gravitating towards those pursuits. Right? I host my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, which is all about human connection. The entire premise of the other side of change is about understanding the human psyche and what unites us in these moments of disruption. And so I would encourage everyone listening because it came up so much on the book tour, and I felt how much this was resonating with people. Ask yourself, what is your why? What makes you love the things you love to do? Maybe it is having a creative outlet or improving at a skill or a love of learning. Whatever your why is that can be stable in the face of change. Life can't take that passion away from you. And so it can be a softer landing when life makes other plans, and also a compass that helps guide you towards your next steps.

[Elise Hu]

That's beautiful. Dr. Maya Shankar, thank you so much for talking with me about your.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Thanks for having me.

[Elise Hu]

It's been exactly, as you said, very connecting, and I'm so glad that I was able to see you again.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Oh, thank you so much, Elise. I appreciate it.

[Elise Hu]

Where can folks find you? Where do you want folks to find you? If They've heard about. They're hearing this conversation. Oh, sure.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

They can find me on Instagram, Rmayashankar. So that's D R M A Y a S H a N K A R. And they can find my book, the Other side of Change, wherever they buy books. And my podcast, a slight change of plans. Wherever they listen to podcasts.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, thank you so much.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Thank you so much.

[Elise Hu]

So thank you again to Dr. Maya Shankar for sitting down with me. There was a lot of insight that I got out of that conversation. I felt really connected with her when we were chatting too. So it's a good one and very excited that the book is doing really well too.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

It was second only to that book, Strangers, the divorce memoir. Memoir.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Are you gonna read it?

[Elise Hu]

And now I feel I must. Everybody's talking about this divorce memoir, Strangers.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

So I feel everybody.

[Elise Hu]

Like three or four people separately.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. All right. Well, Elise, how did it go? Taking your vitamins?

[Elise Hu]

Pretty well. Pretty well. I didn't realize that I was supposed to be taking two. I was taking one, and then I guess vitamin serving sizes are changing and I'm supposed to take two. Or it's like some sort of of marketing thing where this gets people to spend more money on buying vitamins. But I'm supposed to take two per day, so now I need to double it, but pretty good about that. I feel good. What about you? How'd you do on your intention focus? Right?

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Yeah, I was pretty focused. I did finish. I finished a draft of the project that I needed to finish, and I'm almost done with the revision. So. Good to go there this week. I actually have, like, a busy nighttime week. Great. Yeah. Great for you, Elise.

[Elise Hu]

You're like, this is exhausting.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Yeah, I'm like, this is a lot. I already, like, moved. One of the things. I was like, this is too much. I moved to dinner. I was like, no. So gonna try to just, like, you know, not get too overwhelmed by my. My busy social life, which is like. Which is like a calm week for Elise, but for me, it's a lot.

[Elise Hu]

It's so funny that you mentioned this, because yesterday there was that movie, if I had legs, I'd kick you. It stars Rose Byrne. And so yesterday he was, like, actually asking me if I wanted to go to a screening of it and talk. Like, he started bringing it up and then realized he didn't want to go to it, and then he was, like, backing up halfway through asking me. He's like, would you want to go see Conan O' Brien and Rose Byrne in conversation after a screening of R. Rose. If I had legs, I could kick you in West Hol. No, I don't want to go.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Never mind.

[Elise Hu]

I never said anything at all.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

So funny.

[Elise Hu]

So, so, yeah, I, I, I feel it. I feel you. Especially on like, evening activities with driving involved through traffic and parking questions, open questions about where to park at. Yeah. So.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Well, one of the things is the day, the day this comes out actually is Maureen Goo's book launch.

[Elise Hu]

One and only. Yes.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

In Pasadena.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, is it a Broman's? It is pasadena.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Pasadena.

[Elise Hu]

Like six or seven.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

At seven. It's like, not ideal.

[Elise Hu]

It would fully take me 90 minutes. 90 minutes to get.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

I mean, it's possible. It will take me 90 minutes. Like, it, it is, it is like the worst time to, like, have to go out to Pasadena.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. So Godspeed, Dor. So your intention is just to like, what is your intention related to this?

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

Well, my intention is part of this. Yeah, yeah. Like to not just get overwhelmed.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

I was just mentioning that, you know, you were talking about driving, but like, one of the things things is just is keeping it chill. Driving to Pasadena.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

So keeping it chill.

[Elise Hu]

For me. I'm just going to put as my intention put it out there in the world that I. The weather has turned to just beautiful all the time. Lucky us. And I just want to spend more time outside. I want to either go, go on longer walks with my convalescing dog or run more than I usually do or go play tennis. Like, I want to spend time outside. So putting it out there.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

All right, I love that. And this is the episode every month where we thank our Patreon members at the $10 level or above. So that's just another one of the great perks you get by subscribing to our Patreon. I'm gonna just read these names real quick. Ariel C. I don't know if this is Laura. I think it's Laura Ciccone, Sarah liska, Fiona Castro, Labrun, Felicia Justice Biro, Jasmine DeJesus, Christy Caitlin H. Katie Ashley Taylor, Theresa Anderson, Nicole Gass, Maya Barbara C. Amy, Amy Schnitzer, Megan Shelley Lee, Sarah Boozy, Allison Cohen, Melissa McLean, Jackie Leventhal, Fran Kelsey Wolf, Donay, Laura Eddy, Jettel Aptey, Valerie Bruno, Julie Daniel E. Jackson, Katherine Burke, Amy Maseko, Liz Rain, jdk, Hannah M, Julia P. Matty o', Day, Marissa Sarah Bell, Maria Diana St, Coco Bean, Laura Hadden, Josie H, Nikki Bossert, Juliana Duff, Chelsea Torres, Tiffany G, Emily McIntyre, Stephanie Germana, Olivia Fahey, Elizabeth A, Christine Bassis, Jessica Gale, Zulima Lundy, Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Gold and T. Katherine Ellingson, Kara Brugman, Sarah H. Sarah Egan, Jess Combin, Jennifer Olson, Jennifer HS, Eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brianne Macy, Elizabeth Holland, Karen Perelman, Katie Jordan, Sarah M. Kate M. Josie Elquist, Tara Todd, Elizabeth Cleary, and Monica. Thank you so much. We appreciate you.

[Elise Hu]

We sure do.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

And Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dory Shafrier and Elise Hugh, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is acast. Thanks everyone so much.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you.

[Dora Lori Shafrier]

We'll talk to you soon. Bye.

[Elise Hu]

Hey, marketers, here's something to note.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

75% of listeners don't consider podcasters to be influencers. Yet 84% say a podcaster has changed.

[Elise Hu]

Their mind about something they once believed. That's the paradox of podcast influence. It's built on credibility, not clout. Trust, not trend. Acast's podcast Pulse 2025 report reveals how podcast creators are redefining influence through resonance.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Multiplatform fandoms and their ability to shape culture. Get the full report free at PodcastPulse2025.