Forever35, Episode 388: “Lasting Change Within Us with Maya Shankar”
Release Date: February 9, 2026
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Dr. Maya Shankar, cognitive scientist, host of A Slight Change of Plans, and author of The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans
Episode Overview
This heartfelt and insightful episode features Elise Hu in a candid, deep conversation with Dr. Maya Shankar about personal transformation, the psychology of change, and the unexpected gifts that emerge from life’s disruptions. Drawing from her new book and personal experiences, Dr. Shankar shares practical strategies and moving stories that shed light on how we can process unexpected change and use it to foster meaningful personal growth. The discussion also explores the power of community, compassion, and identity amid life's uncertainties.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Introducing Dr. Maya Shankar and Her New Book
- [06:42] Dr. Shankar is introduced as a cognitive scientist with impressive credentials, including work in the Obama White House, the UN, and being a former violin prodigy under Itzhak Perlman at Juilliard.
- [08:30] Her book, The Other Side of Change, debuted at #2 on the NYT bestseller list. Maya expresses her excitement and recounts a friendly connection with the author ranked above her.
Notable Quote
“I messaged her on Instagram...I binge listened to your book the last two days and she was so sweet. And then we got to be book buddies on the list.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar [10:14]
2. Self-Care in the Midst of Change
- [10:24] Maya discusses her commitment to 8-10 hours of sleep as her essential self-care practice, especially during the exhausting book tour circuit.
- [11:43] Elise shares her own goal of walking her kids to school to connect more intentionally with her family and start her day grounded.
3. Why Write About Change? Tackling the Fear of Uncertainty
- [16:39] Maya admits her book stems from her own fear of change and dislike of unpredictability.
- References a study showing people prefer certainty about even negative outcomes over uncertainty:
“We are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance.” — Dr. Maya Shankar [16:39]
- Aim: Provide actionable science-based advice and real-life stories to help people navigate disruption, not just platitudes like, "You can control your reaction."
4. How Change Alters Identity and Internal Narrative
- [18:52] When major change strikes, we forget that it also changes us internally, and we often underestimate our own adaptability and growth.
- Example: Elise and Maya discuss how personal upheavals (divorce, medical diagnosis) felt shattering at the time but ultimately led to gratitude and new perspectives.
Notable Quote
“When a big change happens to us, it can also lead to lasting change within us...the unique stresses and demands of your new situation will unlock new abilities and perspectives...”
— Dr. Maya Shankar [18:52]
5. Individual Differences and Common Threads in Coping with Change
- [21:04] Maya illustrates, using the story of two climbers taken hostage, that facing the same crisis can lead to very different life interpretations and outcomes.
- [23:34] Despite the variance, “there is more that unites us in these moments than separates us.” Shared psychological frameworks mean we can learn from a diversity of stories, not just from those who have experienced our exact plight.
6. Practical Strategies for Navigating and Metabolizing Change
- [23:34] The book distills science-backed strategies for reframing and processing change:
- Intentionally challenge rigid beliefs.
- Be mindful of your framing and the narratives you construct.
- Find value in relatable lessons across seemingly unrelated stories.
- [26:59] Maya notes: Lessons from seemingly unrelated change stories (from illness to betrayal) often resonate because of common psychological challenges.
Notable Quote
“If you can have a slightly more open mind and invite stories in that don't look at all like yours, you might be surprised by how much you learn.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar [26:59]
7. Community and Compassion After Loss or Transition
- [27:45] During her book launch, Maya is hit with personal tragedy—reminding her that insight does not “inoculate” anyone from pain.
- Community becomes crucial: opening up to others disrupts negative internal narratives and helps healing.
- Maya shares her struggle with infertility and miscarriage, and how connecting with loved ones poked holes in the story she told herself about failure and identity.
Notable Quote
“It was only in actually communicating...with my loved ones that I started to see, you know, Maya, maybe this story you're constructing isn't really accurate, and maybe it's gonna be holding you back.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar [31:07]
8. Initiating vs. Receiving Change: Foreseeing the Unexpected
- [31:58] We often try to plan for change, but behavioral science shows humans are poor “affective forecasters”—bad at predicting our future feelings and reactions.
- Advice: Enter intentional change (e.g., quitting a job, ending a relationship) with humility and curiosity. Be mindful of unexpected “spillover effects.”
- Example: A sought-after promotion brings unforeseen changes in relationships and identity at work.
9. Identity Beyond the Labels
- [37:06] Major changes can threaten our deeply held identities (e.g., Maya losing her identity as a violinist after injury, her hopes for motherhood after miscarriages).
- She urges listeners to untether identity from external labels (“what you do”) and instead root it in the “why”—the underlying purpose or passion that can persist through life’s changes.
Notable Quote
“Ask yourself, what is your why? What makes you love the things you love to do? ...that can be stable in the face of change. Life can't take that passion away from you.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar [40:16]
Memorable Moments
- Maya recounts her “TED vortex fugue state” and how she found comfort in knowing even a free solo climber (Alex Honnold) got nervous before his big talk. [15:15]
- Candid discussion of the emotional aftermath of repeated miscarriages and how sharing grief opened Maya to new perspectives and support. [31:07–31:58]
- A story of unexpected solidarity and camaraderie between bestselling authors via Instagram DMs. [09:50–10:14]
- The hosts get personal about parental guilt, dog hospitalization, and vitamin routines, underscoring the show’s signature mix of humor and vulnerability. [04:36, 41:35]
Actionable Takeaways
- Prioritize your self-care needs (e.g., honoring your unique sleep needs, intentional routines).
- Embrace humility and curiosity—especially when initiating change.
- Be open to learning from all stories of change, not just those mirroring your own experience.
- Anchor your identity to your underlying ‘why’ instead of rigid external labels.
- Allow community into your healing process and resist isolating yourself during hardship.
Important Timestamps
- 08:30 – Maya’s book success and author camaraderie
- 10:24–11:09 – Sleep as the ultimate self-care
- 16:39 – Fear of change and the psychology of uncertainty
- 18:52 – The transformative effect of change on identity
- 21:04–22:18 – Different responses to the same trauma
- 23:34 – Science-backed strategies and the universality of change
- 27:45 – Maya’s personal tragedy and the role of community
- 31:07 – Letting others into your sorrow changes the narrative
- 31:58 – Initiating change and affective forecasting
- 37:06 – Grieving lost identities; redefining self after loss
- 40:16 – Why-based identity as a stabilizing force
Final Thoughts
This episode exemplifies Forever35’s blend of warmth, humor, and deep self-reflection. Dr. Maya Shankar deftly dismantles the myth that resilience to change is innate, and instead offers hope: that resilience is built, and growth happens—in the most unexpected ways—when we open ourselves to community, perspective, and a deeper understanding of our own “why.”
Find Dr. Maya Shankar:
- Instagram: @drmayashankar
- Podcast: A Slight Change of Plans
- Book: The Other Side of Change (available wherever books are sold)
Listen to more episodes/learn more:
forever35podcast.com
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