Episode 391: Just Try Stuff with Charlene Kaye

Summary

Forever35 – Episode 391: “Just Try Stuff” with Charlene Kaye

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Charlene Kaye
Release Date: March 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on creativity, self-care, and the importance of trying new things—whether it’s a new creative outlet or a personal wellness practice. Musician, comedian, and viral musical satirist Charlene Kaye joins the Forever35 hosts for a rich, funny, and candid conversation about her multifaceted career, her journey into viral musical comedy, embracing vulnerability and imperfection (even in the public eye), and navigating both creativity and self-care as an adult.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Self-Care Practices

• ASMR for Nervous System Reset
  • [10:48] Charlene’s nightly self-care routine is watching ASMR videos, especially those with a “caring friend” vibe. It helps her feel calm and cared for, almost tricking her brain into feeling supported.
    • Quote: "It really resets my nervous system to have someone just speak to me…like tricks my brain into having some sort of caring friend that's like everything's going to be okay." — Charlene K., [10:48]
  • The hosts share thoughts on the spread and personalization of ASMR, including Elise’s daughter using slime ASMR videos for self-soothing.
  • The group discusses different ASMR "triggers" and joke about testing various video types to find personal favorites.

2. Charlene’s Creative Journey

• Multi-hyphenate Artist Origins
  • [15:30] Charlene introduces herself: musician, comedian, dancer, and teacher. Grew up in Hawaii, lived globally, started with classical music as a child, discovered guitar through her sister, and moved to NYC to pursue a music career.
  • Currently performs as herself and in new projects: King Mei Mei (new band), “Tiger Daughter” (her show about family), and “Diversity Shredder.”
  • Gave a TED Talk (with thanks to Elise for the encouragement) and bonded with Elise over Korean beauty and their mutual fangirling.
    • Quote: "I just respect you so much, and your brain is a beautiful thing, and it's just an honor to be in your orbit." — Charlene K., [16:43]

3. Viral Musical Comedy & Deconstructing Pop Music

• Going Viral Analyzing Artists’ Styles

  • [18:23] Charlene describes how her deep love and knowledge of music theory and pop tropes led to her viral videos (e.g., “Every Taylor Swift Song”), breaking down how famous artists craft their hits.
  • She combines music and comedy by highlighting patterns, including chord progressions and stylistic quirks, making this analysis accessible and funny for both musicians and regular listeners.

• Origins of the Talent

  • [18:34] She explains learning guitar from her sister (and sibling rivalry), preference for learning music by ear, and her analytical approach stemming from her experiences as both a sideman and songwriter.
    • Quote: "I've always loved pop music ... and it was really easy for me to learn something by ear, which is probably why I understand music in the way that I do." — Charlene K., [21:39]

• The Secret of the Taylor Swift Bridge

  • [22:11] Charlene analyzes why Taylor Swift bridges are so powerful—using musical structure to create emotional high points and connect listeners on a personal and universal level.
    • Quote: "The thing about Taylor Swift's bridges is that they heighten the song almost 100% of the time…they make you just want to run through a field." — Charlene K., [23:20]

4. Reactions from Celebrity Subjects

• Praise & Pushback

  • [25:02] Most artists (e.g., Chapel Roan, Ed Sheeran) have loved Charlene’s parodies, often publicly commenting with supportive words.
    • "Ed Sheeran commented…'pretty much. This is the formula.'" — Charlene K., [25:24]
  • [26:42] Discusses her recent spoof of a Machine Gun Kelly guitar solo that went viral—including the downside: MGK directly messaged her, upset that he saw it as “hating.”
    • Quote: "He messaged me…'Why are you using your platform to hate on me? ... This was one of the hardest mental health days of my life.'" — Charlene K., [26:42]

• On Public Mistakes, Internet Culture, and Empathy

  • The hosts and Charlene unpack public “fail” moments (like Nick Jonas or Ashlee Simpson live flubs) and debate the line between humor, criticism, and empathy—especially for famous people.
    • Elise’s advice: "There is something to delighting and celebrating when we fuck up…it makes us human. Is there a way to hold up another person's error in a way that isn't punching down?" — Elise Hu, [27:43]
  • Charlene hopes stars learn to join in on the joke, referencing Hilary Duff embracing a meme of herself as a positive example.

5. Creative Sisterhood & Gender in Music

• Women-Fronted Tribute Bands & Representation
  • [31:23] Charlene shares what it’s like to perform in all-woman bands like Labiahead (Radiohead tribute) and Guns and Hoses—a healing, empowering experience after feeling isolated as a woman guitarist for years.
    • Quote: "It just is very healing to my inner child because I never had any girl friends who could play guitar back then... It feels like a real sisterhood that I never had when I was growing up." — Charlene K., [33:01]

6. Advice for Aspiring Creatives

• Persistence & Permission to Be Bad

  • [34:34] Charlene advises:
    • Try things even if you’re bad at first—persistence matters more than immediate success
    • Don’t compare your worth to external validation or social standards
    • Mimic what you love as a way to find your own voice (she did countless covers before creating original viral content)
    • Keep learning—her own journey includes learning comedy and dance as an adult
    • Quote: "You just have to allow yourself to be bad for a while…If you just make one little tap every day, pretty soon that wall is going to crumble between you and whatever you're looking for." — Charlene K., [34:34]

• “Just Try Stuff” Mantra

  • She began dancing at 30 and learned K-pop choreography during the pandemic through online communities, reiterating to listeners that age and ability shouldn’t hold you back.
    • "Just try stuff, and if you mess up, that's for you, Machine Gun Kelly." — Charlene K., [38:31]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Hang on, I’m self soothing with my ASMR.” — Elise’s 10-year-old daughter, [11:33]
• “The verses are for you. The choruses are for everyone else.” — Charlene K., [23:20]
• “We bond because we understand and appreciate music in this same sort of humorous, analytical way.” — Charlene K., [20:37]
• “I think about a songwriter like Max Martin and all that pop I imbibed in the 90s…” — Charlene K., [23:03]
• “Being an artist means the learning never stops.” — Charlene K., [37:32]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 10:48 — Charlene’s self-care routine: ASMR and finding your personal triggers
• 15:30 — Charlene’s background, path to becoming a multi-hyphenate
• 18:34 — Origin story: learning guitar, sibling rivalry, and music by ear
• 22:11 — Breaking down the Taylor Swift bridge and pop music structure
• 25:02 — Feedback from the famous: artists respond to viral parodies
• 26:42 — Machine Gun Kelly pushback: ethics of online humor and mental health
• 31:23 — Playing in all-women tribute bands and the empowerment of female musical community
• 34:34 — Advice for creative late bloomers and the mantra: “Just try stuff”
• 38:31 — Social media handles, closing questions, and whimsical jewelry discussions

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is lively, compassionate, and humor-infused, full of mutual admiration and a sense of camaraderie. The hosts and guest blend thoughtfulness with playful, “let’s not take ourselves too seriously” energy—perfectly embodying the episode’s encouragement for listeners to try new things, accept imperfection, and celebrate both the sublime and the cringe.

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Summary Takeaways

• Find what soothes or excites you—don’t judge your path by others’ standards.
• Being creative means being persistent and okay with imperfection.
• Supportive communities—especially among women—can be transformative.
• Even viral success comes with nuance: consider empathy and mutual respect in public criticism.
• There’s no age limit to trying new things or learning new skills: just try stuff.

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For more from Charlene:

• Find her on Instagram: @charlenekaye
• See her live in Labiahead or catch her shows “Tiger Daughter” and “Diversity Shredder.”
• Discover more Forever35: forever35podcast.com and on Instagram @forever35podcast

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Transcript

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[Dori Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dori Shafrier]

Elise, do you want to tee up Our amazing guest today?

[Elise Hu]

We have the multi talented Charlene Kay on our show today. She is a musician, she is a comedian, she is a guitarist, a dancer. She's like so many things, she's a creator. I originally discovered her because I originally discovered her in a way that many of you may have discovered her if you're already following her on TikTok or Instagram, which is. She makes these songs, she writes these songs that are like, every Taylor Swift song is like. And then she performs basically what sounds like a Taylor Swift song by deconstructing the elements of it in order to help us learn a little bit about it. And she did that for Ed Sheeran. She's done it for Chapel Roan. Um, and as we learned during our conversation, the artists like it. They have reached out to be like, oh my God, you figured it out.

[Dori Shafrier]

Most of them like it.

[Michaela Matthew Zakom (Side Hustle Hustle Pro Host)]

Yes.

[Dori Shafrier]

Teaser, teaser. Yeah, it was really cool to talk to her. She's such a fascinating person and so interesting and so talented and like, just cool. And she had great lipstick on. But if you want the details of her lipstick, you have to be a Patreon subscriber. Sorry, that's just how it worked out. No, I meant to ask about it during the main episode and then I forgot. And then during the Forever 35 questionnaire, which is the little bonus thing that we do with our guests every week on our Patreon, I was like, oh

[Charlene K.]

my God, the lipstick.

[Dori Shafrier]

So, yeah, you can find [e-mail] Forever35. Elise how are you doing?

[Elise Hu]

I'm doing well. I ended up not getting to travel. I think we talked about this in last week's mini episode that I was expecting to go to New York. Didn't go to New York. The airlines. The airlines thwarted my plans. They all decided by Saturday night even that they weren't gonna fly. So I had moved my Monday flight back to Sunday or a day earlier in order to avoid the oncoming blizzard. But even then, I was flying American Airlines, and American was like, nope, nothing. We're offering nothing, and you can reschedule. And then when I tried to reschedule, they were like, nope, the next three days are all canceled. So I ended up getting to stay here in lovely Los Angeles and be under the sun. In fact, it was pretty hot. And, yeah, we did my birthday party. We did a chill birthday party. Nothing that made me black out. There was one birthday party.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, no.

[Elise Hu]

My 41st birthday a couple years ago. We did it at this bar. We did, like, a bar buyout. And Rob's band played. Rob is a guitarist, and he doesn't usually sing, but he decided to write a song about me, and it's like a musical comedy song, you know, and he serenaded me with it, and he wrote it with this composer friend of his who's also in the band. And they, like, took some time. Apparently, they'd, like, practiced and spent time songwriting sessions coming up with it and all this stuff. And then the big performance was on my birthday. I don't have any memory of this at all, because I was. I guess I just, like, people buy me shots or buy me drinks, and I'm just a yes person, you know, I'm a yes ander, and I have no memory of this. And Rob was like, I'm gonna have to. Now I'm gonna have to record it somewhere. Now we have to have a separate recording session because. And he gave me the lyrics, and I was just like, that's really sweet. And I feel like you really got me. And it was very funny. Lots of inside jokes in there, and would have been great to be there for it. I was there.

[Dori Shafrier]

Wow. So it was like that I was there physically.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I was there physically, but apparently not there in spirit because, you know, folks. Folks were like, you were having a great time. I just don't remember. So that didn't happen. I pretty much remember most of the night on this past Saturday.

[Dori Shafrier]

That is so funny.

[Elise Hu]

It was great to see you, Dora. You were actually having to drive all the way across town because you were Even farther than where you live in order to be at a birthday party of one of Henry's friends.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes. One of Henry's friends had a. An uncharacteristically late for a seven year old birthday party. It started at 5pm yeah. And it was in Pasadena, which is quite far from where I live anyway. And then on a Saturday afternoon, getting across town in Los Angeles is like not the best. So it took me an hour and Henry had fun and then I drove home and like got him ready for bed. And then I went to Elisa's party

[Elise Hu]

and by the time Dory gets there, I was like, do you want birthday cake? We just cut the birthday cake. And she's like, absolutely not. I do not.

[Dori Shafrier]

I just had birthday cake, but I

[Elise Hu]

do not want birthday cake.

[Dori Shafrier]

It looked. It looked yummy.

[Elise Hu]

We did the chocolate dough bash from our small business owner bakery, Angel Maid, where all our family gets all of our cakes. Yeah, it's very, very delicious. It was a really good time. I'm glad we did it the way we did. We. We did this thing where instead of like a sit down dinner or a party in one place where, you know, you have to meet a certain bar minimum or anything like that, we did it at this giant space, our friend Rose's space, that's kind of a food hall where there's lots of different stalls. And so she just like reserved a certain area for us where people could kind of order from wherever, like five or six different restaurants, and then they would bring food and drink to that area. And that way, like you could kind of eat early and then go, or you could not eat or you could just, you know, go to the bar. It was just very chill. And as you know, I love all my friends becoming friends. And so there were a lot of like mom friends that don't make it out a lot. So I got to see them in a social setting. Yeah. Yeah. So that was good.

[Dori Shafrier]

I know. I'm sorry. We were like texting about the weather and your flight and like, it was funny too, because Delta and JetBlue had canceled their flights, like much earlier and American, like kept like, your flight wasn't canceled for like most of Saturday.

[Elise Hu]

That's right.

[Charlene K.]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

It wasn't until evening.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah. I was like, they're Americans, like, optimistic. I'm gonna, you know, hopefully that turns out to be the case. And then they were like, nope, just kidding.

[Elise Hu]

United held out. United actually got flights out, I think on Sunday. And that's how David. Yeah, that's how David, who's my colleague who we wound up, who we were going to the same place, he was flying back from Buenos Aires and moved some things around in order to get into New York or to Newark. And apparently it was like the last flight into Newark before the snow.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, I hope everyone who was, who was affected by the snow has dug themselves out by this point because it was a lot of snow. I mean, Rhode island, parts of Rhode island got over three feet of snow. It's a lot of snow.

[Elise Hu]

I don't, I don't think I've ever been under that much snow.

[Dori Shafrier]

Three feet, I mean, three feet is like, that is so much snow. All right, well, Elise, let's officially introduce our guest. Charlene K. Is a musician and comedian based in New York. And as a musician, she has opened for Arctic Monkeys, alt J, St. Vincent and Metallica. And as a comedian, she has been touring her critically acclaimed show Tiger Daughter or How I Brought My Immigrant Mother Ultimate Shame for the past three years. And her Internet comedy is truly in a league of its own. She created the wildly viral Every Taylor Swift song which has over a hundred million million views. And she spends her free time starting ridiculous cover bands such as Guns and Hoses, labiahead, and no Gout, which is medieval, no doubt. Obviously, duh. And she premiered her new solo comedy show Diversity Shredder at Netflix is a joke fest last May. Before we get to Charlene, just a reminder that you can Visit our website forever35podcast.com we have links there to everything we mention on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35 podcast. Again, our patreon [e-mail] Forever35. At the free tier we have our newsletter and then we also have ad free episodes. At the $10 tier, we have our weekly casual chats. We have our pop culture episodes. You also get a thank you, a special thank you in one episode a month if you support us at the $10 tier. But at the five dollar tier you get the casual chats, you get the pop culture episodes. You get a lot of stuff. So check that [e-mail] Trevor35 our favorite products are at Shop My Us Forever 35. And if you want to reach us with any questions or comments or concerns for the mini episodes, please do that at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and here's Charlene.

[Elise Hu]

Charlene K. We are so excited to have you on the show. Welcome, welcome.

[Charlene K.]

Thank you. I'm so excited to Be here.

[Elise Hu]

We always start by asking our guests what they're doing for self care. So what are you doing lately that you would consider taking care of yourself?

[Charlene K.]

I really love that question. Something that I've been doing every night is watching asmr. And it's specifically somebody who talks to me in like a really calm voice. And like everyone has different ASMR triggers. But mine is like people moving their hands like this and just sort of like oh my gosh, I'm getting calm just watching myself do it. But like there's something. It really resets my nervous system to have someone like just speak to me. Like tricks my brain into having some sort of like maternal or like caring friend that's like everything's going to be okay. Did you guys hip to ASMR?

[Elise Hu]

My, my 10 year old daughter is so into ASMR. She will watch it in the morning and she'll watch it at night.

[Charlene K.]

Oh my God, what's her thing?

[Elise Hu]

And she doesn't like to be disturbed when she's watching her asmr. Cuz she's like hang on, I'm self soothing with my ASMR.

[Charlene K.]

Hang on, I'm self soothing. Says your 10 year old.

[Elise Hu]

She's so funny.

[Charlene K.]

I if I had coping mechanisms like that when I was 10.

[Elise Hu]

She is so funny. She doesn't want to be disturbed but she likes the slime. Asmr. Oh slime. And somebody with their hands negotiating slime. And there's lots of sounds that come out of it. I don't understand this at all.

[Charlene K.]

I'm not to the slime.

[Elise Hu]

This is like not something that I'm into. I'm not into asmr. It sort of creeps me out actually not yet.

[Charlene K.]

I think, I think you got to find your thing.

[Elise Hu]

I was going to say I'm like totally open to everybody's various self care practices.

[Dori Shafrier]

Every like cooking video or influencer video now has the people with the fingernails going like on the things that's that like kind of drives me crazy. Like sometimes I'm like you're not even making an ASMR video. You're just like clicking your fingertips on this jar of jam. Like I don't know, it's like.

[Charlene K.]

But the thing is people get my sister likes the fingernails because we were going through this. They have videos that are like specifically meant to let you know what your trigger is. They do a whole bunch of different stuff. They crinkle paper, they'll whisper, they'll like type on a keyboard. They'll tap my sister was like, I'm just not into this. I'm not. No, I don't think. What is that? And it was somebody that had acrylic fingernails that was tapping on a big jar. So her thing is basie tapping. Oh.

[Elise Hu]

So it's almost like allergy testing where they prick your back to find out what you're allergic to. But for asmr, you can watch all of the various ASMR triggers to see what you find soothing. I know.

[Charlene K.]

Way too much. Yeah, yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I like that.

[Charlene K.]

And mine is, mine is makeup. I love when like people are pretending to do my makeup and it's when people are like my specific search is like caring friend tells you it's going to be okay. Yeah. So that's, that's my self care.

[Dori Shafrier]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, yeah.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

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[Elise Hu]

Tell our listeners how you would describe who you are and what you're all about.

[Charlene K.]

Yeah, I'm Charlene. I am a musician and Comedian. I live in New York. I was born in Honolulu, Hawaii. I have lived all over the world. I lived in Arizona, Hong Kong, Singapore. I went to University of Michigan. And then I came to New York immediately after I graduated college to make it and be a rock star. And so I waited tables for a few years, taught a bunch of music lessons and toured with a billion different bands and did my. Did my own music. During that time, I played music under both Charlene K, which is my given name, and K, which is my last name. And now I'm onto. I just started a new band, which is called King Mei Mei. I have a couple different comedy shows. One of them is about my mom, and it's called Tiger Daughter, or how I brought my immigrant mother Ultimate Shame. The newest show that I just wrote that I'm taking to Edinburgh Fringe Festival this year is called Diversity Shredder, and it's about my experience being an Asian woman in the music industry. And I recently gave a TED Talk thank you to the one and only Elise Hu for hoping your hype woman.

[Elise Hu]

Always.

[Charlene K.]

And everyone who's listening should know that. I found Elise because I am obsessed with K pop and Korean beauty culture in general. And I found Elise's brilliant book called Flawless. And I read it, and I just loved it so much. I tore through it in, like, two days, and then I DM'd her. And I was like, I just loved your book. I wanted to say that you're so brilliant and wonderful. And she was like, oh, my God, I'm actually a fan of yours. And, like, we know who each other is. And I. It was so such a beautiful, mutual fangirl moment. And I just respect you so much, and your brain is a beautiful thing, and it's just an honor to be in your orbit.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, well, it's truly, truly mutual admiration society. Because just before we were recording even, I was telling Dora, I was like, you know, Charlene dances, too. So on top of everything else, like, your talent knows no bounds, is what I said. And, um, the way I had originally found you, and this is probably why many of your Instagram followers have discovered you is your musical comedy and how you, like, take the tropes of how certain artists sing or write their songs. Your Taylor Swift one is probably the biggest one, right?

[Charlene K.]

But, yeah, that one. That one is the biggest but. And so I started to do others after that, and it's just been a really fun project to sort of, like, unpack and, like, break down all the tropes of every different artist, because the Way that I hear music is very rarely without analysis. And so it's fun that other musicians and like people who don't know music theory can like be in on the joke and understand why they like certain things.

[Dori Shafrier]

Can I ask how you sort of discovered that this was something you were into and good at? Like, what was the origin of all of this?

[Charlene K.]

Well, I am a, I've been a musician for my whole life. My mom put me in classical music lessons from when I was like five or six. Asian writers.

[Dori Shafrier]

Tiger mom.

[Elise Hu]

Yep.

[Dori Shafrier]

Okay.

[Charlene K.]

Exactly, exactly. And I've always, I just took really quickly to music and understanding the patterns of it. Like, yeah, I started playing piano and then when I was in seventh grade, my sister actually picked up guitar first and we, our house shared a wall in our bedrooms and so I would always overhear her playing guitar and I got a little jealous and I was like, oh, that sounds really cool. I want to do that. So I would steal her guitar and I would play guitar and then she'd get mad at me because I was like stealing her thing.

[Elise Hu]

We've been talking about that on this show too. Because my sister, my, my daughters who are sisters are like, don't steal my sport. That's my activity.

[Charlene K.]

I know, I know, I know. And my sister is incredibly talented musically. She. We bond because we understand and appreciate music in this same sort of humorous, analytical way. And we both love K pop too. But my sister was really good and she was like learning how to play Jimi Hendrix. And There was no YouTube back then, so it was just tabs. So if you don't know what guitar tabs are, it's like these, these like notated letters and numbers and like dashes and stuff that people can put online. And it corresponds to each of the six guitar strings. And that's how I learned how to play guitar. I would go on ultimate guitar.com and learn every John Mayer song and she had then she was learning a lot of like classic rock like Led Zeppelin and Jimi Hendrix. And when I heard her play the Wind Cries Mary, I was like, I gotta learn that. So I learned her thing and she got really mad at me. And then she was like, well, if you're gonna do guitar, I'm gonna do fun film. And I'm going to start making like really great like indie films as like, you know, a 14 year old. And she's a filmmaker now. She's a screenwriter and a director. And I'm really glad that I stole her thing because it enabled her to find her thing. And now guitar is my thing, so we all win. I was never very good at sight reading, which is why me and classical piano never had any longevity. But I loved guitar because I've always loved pop music and punk music and rock music. And it was really easy for me to learn something by ear, which is probably why I understand music in the way that I do. I can pick up. I can pick up certain progressions and, like, repetitions very easily, which is why I'm like, oh, Taylor Swift always does these four chords. Or like, Ed Sheeran always uses a loop pedal and, like, either sings about his wife or he's really mad about his label. And, like. And because I have been a sideman in addition to my own music, I've learned other people's music and I've had to analyze other people's music. And maybe it's just me, maybe it's the way that my brain has always worked and gravitated towards, like, the mechanics of what makes something interesting or funny. And, like, especially when I got into comedy, I am so interested now in what makes something funny. And there are a million different ways to make surprise happen. And largely when people laugh, it's because they're not expecting the turn in a joke or in a. In a song or in a script or something. So, yeah, I just love it. I love. I love learning. I love, like, deconstructing things that make me feel something. And I think it's because of this unique ability and curiosity that other people have gravitated towards my stuff because they also have the same curiosity, but maybe they're not as able to articulate it.

[Dori Shafrier]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

Since you have deconstructed some of the most popular pop artists of our time, what is it about? For example, a Taylor Swift bridge, right? She's known for her big bridges, and then sometimes they're better or more memorable than the song itself. What is it about that or what is it she's doing? You think that's happening there?

[Charlene K.]

I love a good bridge. And because I am a child of the 90s and early 2000s, I come from an era where there was a chorus, there was a verse, of course. Verse, of course, a bridge, and then the last chorus. And in this day and age with pop music, it can repeat over and over again. There can be, like, one chord, and it doesn't make it any. Any better or worse of a song, but it was very particular to that time, and Taylor Swift was part of that because she's been around for so long. And I think that a bridge is A great opportunity to break away from the traditional structure of the song and bring us into a heightened emotional place. And then. And it should reinforce what the course has been saying the whole time. Like, if we're treating the course as the thesis. I heard someone once say, the verses are for you. The courses are for everybody else. So if you resonate with the course, it's the most general part that you repeat, and that, like, gets sticky in your head. But the verses are the specific personal anecdotes. And you could probably replace the verses with your own version of what you relate to in the course. But I think about a songwriter like Max Martin and all that pop I imbibed in the 90s, all the boy band stuff, like the Britney Spears and Sync and Backstreet Boys stuff. There's always an amazing bridge. Or it could be called, like, a C section if the verse and course is, like, an A section and a B section. And the thing about Taylor Swift's Bridges is that they. They heighten the song almost 100% of the time. They're, like, big and emotional and yearning, and they have that, like, that escapist quality that, like, breaks it open and makes you just want to, like, run through a field. It, like, cracks that last, like, level of, why do I care about this? So that's why I think she's a brilliant writer, and that's what I think so many people enjoy about her songwriting.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you for letting us geek out for a second there.

[Charlene K.]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I don't think we've ever talked about songwriting, you know, So I just. I think it's interesting. I love that.

[Charlene K.]

Yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, I love geeking out about this stuff, and I'm. Yeah, I always love talking to other creatives because you guys have insight on things in your fields that I know nothing about that I'm sure I'd find fascinating. Can I tell you something that just happened to me that I'm processing?

[Elise Hu]

Yes. We are here to process with you.

[Charlene K.]

Okay. Okay. So Chapel Ron did comment on my breakdown of hers, and she was like, yeah. And she was. She sent me. She wrote a comment on the post that said, exactly. You get it. And it had, like, multiple sparkly heart emojis. And I was like, oh, this is so cool. Ed Sheeran commented, and he was like, exact. He was like, pretty much. This is the formula.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, my God. And so I didn't know that.

[Charlene K.]

I just love when, like, artists can see that it's out of love. But the most recent video that I did was Machine Gun Kelly. Do you know who he is?

[Elise Hu]

Great guitarist.

[Charlene K.]

He. He did a. He did a video of this guitar solo from his most recent concert where they're pyrotechnics shooting out of his guitar.

[Dori Shafrier]

And.

[Charlene K.]

And the guitar solo that he did was so botched. And I don't think it was obviously not intentional, but it became this, like, viral moment where, like, people. Do, you know the viral Nick Jonas guitar solo at the CMA's? Oh, my God, it's so amazing. He, like, goes up there and he. And he's like. It's like, Nick Jonas, everybody, Carrie Underwood, like, brings him out and then he just plays, like, completely in the wrong key. And it's, like, on national television. And I know. I felt so bad for him, but it's so funny. And, like, as someone who loves music and also loves cringe, it's like, I laugh so hard at that shit.

[Elise Hu]

I mean, I still list. I still think back to the Ashlee Simpson getting that feeling of, like, that's exactly it.

[Charlene K.]

Yeah. And you feel so bad for them. But also it's, like, incredible. Like, it's like, how. What are the steps that could have prevented that from happening?

[Elise Hu]

But anyway, so Machine Gun Kelly had one.

[Charlene K.]

So he had one. And I just did a video yesterday where I played the. The wrong solo note for note. I recreated it in all of its, like, cringe glory. And I'm kind of reacting like, whoa, didn't expect that note. And he messaged me this morning and he said, why are you using your platform to hate on me? And this was one of the, like, hardest mental health days of my life. And I've, like, been touring, like, for two years or something and played, like, hundreds of shows. And, like, make fun of me if I'm being a dick. But, like, this is, like, he said, you seem mature enough to not do this, so. And I was like, oh, my God. I. Like, I'm so sorry, but I don't think I was, like, being mean. I just. That is my sense of humor. And I. I do a lot of videos like that. But I was also like, if you've seen my stuff, you know that I'm not mature enough to rise above this moment. But, yeah, it's interesting. Like, I was also like, man, this guy has 9 million followers, and I'm really, like, making a.

[Elise Hu]

You got under his skin. Yeah, but he's sensitive, you know, clearly, you know, But I. I understand what you're saying that there is. I think there is something to delighting and celebrating when we Fuck up. Right? There's, it's like, there's something about our mistakes that we should actually celebrate because it makes us human. And is there a way to hold up another cringe moment, like another person's mistake or error or whatever it is in a way that isn't punching down? And I think if you're Machine Gun Kelly, you have arrived at a level of fame and notoriety where that's gonna happen. Sometimes people are gonna ding you sometimes, especially if you have a really high profile screw up. So I don't know. What did you say to him?

[Charlene K.]

I haven't responded yet because I got it right before I hopped on this call. But my first thought is, like, do you remember the viral, the Hillary Duff dance that people were making fun of? Okay. She did this, like, it's called With Love. And it was like, in the early 2000s when she was in her heyday. And she does this dance on, like, many daytime television shows and like, Dick Clark's Rockin New Year's Eve. And it's the most bizarre dance. It looks like a robot's doing it. If it were like, if it had, like, no sense of timing or whatever and, and people were doing it on the Internet, not as it means to make fun of her, but just because it was like a bizarre time capsule of that, of that moment in pop culture.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Charlene K.]

And she just went on tour and she did the dance. See, people lost their minds because they were like, yes. Because, like, finally it's like she's in on the joke with them. So I really feel like this wasn't

[Elise Hu]

me for Machine Gun Kelly listening.

[Charlene K.]

Get on your social media and cover your own solo. It would be fudgeing hilarious. And people could see that you don't take yourself too seriously. And you're not. I mean, I, I, I, I don't claim to, like, understand what his mental health situation is. And I know not, not everybody can do that. But, like, I want that for him. I want him to, like, I want him to be able to see when things go wrong and, like, be like, that was funny, you know, I'm not gonna be a flawless performer all the time. And not everyone can be Beyonce.

[Elise Hu]

And it makes him more likable too, if he were to do that. But it clearly, you know, especially given what he said about his mental health, like, he might be going through some stuff like we don't know. Yeah.

[Charlene K.]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Well, thanks for sharing that story with us.

[Charlene K.]

No problem.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

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[Elise Hu]

Just going back to how you found guitar. We know you found guitar from your sister. I'm curious because you are the Johnny Greenwood in LA Biahead, your all woman Radiohead tribute band.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Did you discover Radiohead from a slacker boyfriend in college?

[Charlene K.]

I did, I did,

[Elise Hu]

yeah.

[Charlene K.]

I remember Truly. Truly. Like I remember vividly. It was a guy that was in the jazz guitar program. Of course he was at Michigan and he actually taught me a lot about guitar and like really like informed my music taste. Like so many of us women who have dated musicians and I remember like it was like before the first time we hooked up and he was like playing me a Radiohead song and like he was just like listen to the, the way that the, the, the drums are, are filtered and looped here. Oh my God, it's amazing. And I was like, yeah, that is amazing. And like we were, we didn't connect and but yeah, it's just an interesting like phenomenon that happens to a bunch of women and like it feels like a way to reclaim loving that music for myself.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And listeners, if you have an opportunity to see labiahead live, it is truly one of my favorite live shows that I saw. I have seen y' all played like this kind of sticky floored club in Hollywood last year.

[Charlene K.]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And just it blew me away. Tell folks a little bit about the other folks in the band too. Totally talented.

[Charlene K.]

My co founder Lena hall is just a force of nature and she is my favorite voice. She's my favorite female vocalist.

[Elise Hu]

Truly.

[Charlene K.]

I can't get enough of her performance style. She has won a Tony for her role in Hedwig and the Angry Inch. She's on Apple TVs you, friends and neighbors. She does it all, and it's pretty incredible.

[Elise Hu]

Jon Hamm's sister on that show, right?

[Charlene K.]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I wonder what that must be like.

[Charlene K.]

Yeah, I mean, she says it's a great working relationship, and she's. She's so great in that. But, yeah, it's been incredibly empowering to. To be amongst these women. And I've really. I've never played in a band with two other female guitarists. It's a crazy feeling to have three different guitar parts happening at the same time. And it just is very healing to my inner child because I never had any girls friends who could play guitar back then. And even in college, like, it was all, like, the dudes that I dated. My band was all dudes. It was, like, really recently that I was like, I want to play with as many women as possible, not just in my cover bands, but, like, with my own music. And it just feels different. It feels like. It feels like a real sisterhood that I never had when I was growing up.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, I love that. Can we talk a little bit about any advice you have for people who might be in more of, like, a traditional job but want to be more creative or.

[Charlene K.]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

You know, explore that side of them.

[Charlene K.]

Absolutely. I have so many friends that it's like, it is such a privilege and a luxury to be a creative person. And I. I have been working towards this for my entire life where I don't have to have any supplemental jobs besides performing. And I've done every single kind of job from, like, being a camp counselor where I wrangled horses and llamas and, like, cleaned up their animal pens to waiting tables, to having desk jobs and, like, temp jobs. Like, I got a graphic design degree when I was 33, so it was, like, in 2019, because I really didn't know if I was going to continue doing music, and so I thought I was going to, like, work at some agency and be a graphic designer. And it's really. It takes a lot of persistence and dedication, and that ultimately wins out over everything. So if anyone's, like, starting something and is like, oh, but I've never written a screenplay or, like, written a song or something. You just have to allow yourself to be bad for a while, and you have to let time do its good work and just put in the little. The little bits every single day. And, like, if you just, like, make one little tap every single day, like, pretty soon that wall is going to crumble between you and whatever you're looking for. And I would. It's. It's easier said than done. But try not to measure your worth based on the validation of other people around you or society. It's. I'm like, it's so easy. Don't care about what society thinks about you. Like, obviously I care a lot, but like, it's. It's really hard to compare. Like, compare. Comparing yourself to what other people are doing is. It's a. It's a really easy way to quickly lose faith and lose sight in your own unique voice. And you know, paradoxically, that's also kind of the only way that you discover your voice by mimicking other people and like, by exploring techniques of other people that you really like.

[Elise Hu]

Sure.

[Charlene K.]

Like, that's how I got started, just by covering a bunch of people. And like, I, I think that musical comedy came really quickly to me because I had such a background in music. And I've always loved like, Flight of the Conchords into Nation. But stand up, like, pure standup is something I am fascinated by, I'm not very good at. And so the next frontier for me is I'm always watching other people's standup sets and I'm going to stand up shows all the time. And I love storytelling and I love when I can see a performer that like, just surprises me and has. There is a technique about it that I'm learning, like, similar to how I've been learning. I. I'm familiar with how the mechanics of music work works. I'm like, I'm learning how the mechanics of comedy works now in this really new and exciting way. And it's, it's just great. Like, being an artist means that the learning never stops. And if you're continually curious and you're continually like, diving into this or that, like, that's why I'm like. I was like, oh, I really want to know what it's like to dance. I never had any dancing background when I was younger. I started dancing when I was 30. I'm going to be 40 this year.

[Elise Hu]

Oh my gosh.

[Charlene K.]

Yeah. And I just like, went to a couple classes and like, I was really bad. Like, it's. And it's hard, hard to not think of things as good or bad. But I was having so much fun and like, I was with a bunch of people who were like, kind of nervous for the first time. But the thing about going to dance class is that nobody gives a shit about anyone but themselves. Everyone's watching themselves in the mirror like a hawk, trying to just keep up and like, figure out if they're doing the moves right. And to be honest, that's how I got into K pop, because there's a huge community of, like, dancers that just dance at home for fun, and they have no desire of, like, ever becoming a professional dancer. But anytime a group, like, drops something new that has choreography that everyone's doing, then videos will pop up the next day of people being like, oh, here's how you do the BTS dance or the Le sserafim dance or the stray kids dance. And that's how I learned so many of the dances that I did. And it was over Covid. So no one was, like, gathering in person anyway.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Charlene K.]

So just. Just try stuff and, like, if you mess up, then it.

[Elise Hu]

That's great advice.

[Charlene K.]

That's for you, Machine Gun Kelly.

[Elise Hu]

Charlene, how do folks find you?

[Charlene K.]

I am on Instagram. Instagram, slash. Charlene K. You can find me on. I. I do have a website, but, like, if you want to follow me on social media, I'm pretty active on there, so I'd say that's probably the best place.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on the show and being so open and candid with your stories and also how they intersect with famous peoples.

[Dori Shafrier]

One other. One other quick question before we. Before we let you go. Can you tell me about your necklace?

[Charlene K.]

Oh, this is an. This is an ad, like a Google Ad that I got. And I went, yes, I do want that. And I purchased it immediately.

[Elise Hu]

Describe it for folks who are listening.

[Charlene K.]

So this necklace I'm wearing has a little watch in. In the middle. As a pendant, it's completely impractical. My. I could never look at it.

[Elise Hu]

Can you see the time from it?

[Charlene K.]

I cannot see the time.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Charlene K.]

I love it, but you can see it, so you can tell me what time it is.

[Dori Shafrier]

Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you so much.

[Charlene K.]

This jewelry is designed to encourage connection and communication with folks.

[Dori Shafrier]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

All right, Charlene, thanks so much.

[Charlene K.]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, Charlene was great, as promised by you. Thank you, Charlene.

[Charlene K.]

Yes.

[Dori Shafrier]

So that was really.

[Elise Hu]

It's hard to get her because she's always, like, touring and doing stuff, so. We're so glad, Charlene, that you were able to make time.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's go into intentions. Elise, how did getting out into the sunshine go?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I'm still trying. And in fact, because I didn't get to fly to New York, I've done really well on my intention because I've been able to just very intentionally go outside and spend time Outdoors. And then I'm choosing the kid who has the outdoor sport to drive around because on the weekends we can either do volleyball or soccer or like volleyball or dance or soccer. And only one of those is consistently outdoors. And so I'm spending time with Luna on the weekends and that's getting me some additional sunshine. So doing well on that. How about you? How was your intention of continuing your clean out momentum?

[Dori Shafrier]

It's going pretty well. I mean, I didn't do another, like, full day of cleaning and organizing like I did, you know, on the initial day. But it's going, you know, it's going decently. And then this week my intention is to, like, get through this play date that I'm like, a little stressed about. But we'll see. We'll see how it goes. What's your intention this week?

[Elise Hu]

I can't believe it's been another week. I was having lunch with my friend and longtime business partner Rachel yesterday, and she said that she her whole mantra for the year was just no rushing. She just did not want to rush to anything. I remember having Caroline Paul on, I guess it was last year or maybe the year before. And she talked about how she's like, I take my time. I take my time getting everywhere. And some people get annoyed by that, but I just don't want to rush or feel compelled to rush by, you know, like society in this age we live in. And so I think my intention is just going to be to not rush anywhere. We're going to try it for a week.

[Dori Shafrier]

I love that. All right, well, this is the episode where we thank our Patreon supporters. Elise. I believe I read the names last month. So do you want to do the honors?

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Thank you. To our Patreon members at the spa and suite level. Ariel C. Laura Ciccone, Sarah Liska, Felicia justice Spiro, Jasmine DeJesus, Christy Caitlin H. Katie Ashley Taylor, Teresa Anderson, Nicole Gass, Maya Barbara C. Amy Amy Schnitzer, Megan Shelley Lee, Sarah Boozy, Allison Cohen, Melissa McLean, Jackie Leventhal, Fran Kelsey Wolf Denay Laura Eddy Jettle Aptey, Valerie Bruneau, Julie Daniel E. Jackson Katherine Burke, Amy Maseko, Liz Rain JDK Hannah M. Julia P. Matty o' Day Marissa Sarah Bell, Maria Diana Saint, Coco Bean, Laura Hadden, Josie H. Nikk Bossert, Juliana Duff, Chelsea Torres, Tiffany G. Emily McIntyre, Stephanie Germana, Olivia Fahey, Elizabeth A. Christine Bassis, Jessica Gale Zula M. Lundy, Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Golds, Ann T. Katherine Ellingson, Kara Brugman, Sarah H. Sarah Egan, Jess Combin Jennifer Olson, Jennifer hs, Eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brianne Macy, Elizabeth Holland, Karen Perelman, Katie Jordan, Sarah M, Kate M, Josie Alquist, Tara Todd, Elizabeth Cleary and Monica. Thank y' all so much.

[Dori Shafrier]

Thank you. And just a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafriar and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sami Reed is our Project Manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone.

[Elise Hu]

Bye bye.

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[Elise Hu]

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[Charlene K.]

Here's a show that we recommend.

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[Charlene K.]

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