Mini-Ep 465: Burnout Stories

Summary

Forever35 – Mini-Ep 465: Burnout Stories

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Date: October 15, 2025
Theme: Listener stories and advice about burnout, work-life boundaries, and finding meaning outside of work

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Episode Overview

This mini-episode of Forever35 is devoted to listeners’ stories and strategies for dealing with burnout, especially for working parents and those juggling demanding jobs. Doree and Elise share listener emails and voicemails about navigating burnout, setting boundaries at work, redefining personal worth outside of productivity, and handling “hobbies” that turn into extra work. The episode is candid, supportive, and deeply relatable for anyone feeling overwhelmed by work, parenting, or modern productivity culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Weekend Updates & LA Life

• Casual catch-up: Elise and Doree chat about their weekends, LA neighborhoods, and how travel across town feels like a big deal due to Los Angeles traffic.
  • Elise's soccer tickets: Elise shares the comical saga of finally using her Angel City season soccer tickets.
  • [03:37] Elise: “I think these are our last ticket. This is our last ticket set for Sunday’s game. And I can actually go, and I’m going to try and get two, if not three of the girls to go and actually use these tickets that I purchased for the full season.”
• Getting outside your “radius”:
  • Doree (06:08): “I feel like you are better than most people about getting outside your radius.”

2. Setting the Stage: Burnout Takes Center Stage

• The theme emerged after an influx of emails and messages from listeners about burnout, especially in parenting and demanding jobs.
  • Doree (08:20): “There’s a lot about burnout, a lot of really interesting perspectives and we are still taking your thoughts.”

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Listener Stories & Reflections on Burnout

3. Quiet Quitting & Identity Beyond Career

• Listener message (14:07): Shares embracing “quiet quitting”—doing what’s required, not deriving identity solely from work. Interior designer finds creativity outside of job and prioritizes family and resetting nervous system.
  • Quote (14:07): “I show up, do my work, go home, not asking for more work… my low key, low stress job is providing me the income and brain space to get my creative outlet outside the office.”
• Elise’s Reflection on Byung Chul Han:
  • Elise (14:11): “It’s kind of the anti Calvinist work ethic… you really can’t live life unless you are doing nothing and you’re just allowing for life to surprise you. I aspire to live a Byung Chul Han life; the only thing that holds me back are my bills.”

4. Boundary Setting as a Team, Not Just Individually

• Caller voicemail (17:18):
  • Emphasizes you can’t heal from burnout if you’re still “on fire.” Urges true disengagement—not a “vacation” where you’re still working for your family, but genuine time away from all responsibilities.
  • Advocates making work boundaries a team effort (e.g., no Slacks after 5pm for everyone), not an individual burden.
  • Quote (18:19): “You cannot heal your burnout… if you are still on fire. If you are still smoldering… you have to take a break. You have to step away.”
  • Quote (19:13): “It is a collective effort. Don’t just put it on you to maintain this boundary. Engage your boss.”
• Hosts agree.
  • Elise (20:11): “Great advice... work with the boss to set boundaries that apply across the board, not just for you.”

5. Everyday Steps to Relief and Letting Some Things Go

• Listener email (20:35): Practical tips—turning off work notifications after hours, handing off household management tasks (like monthly dinner planning) to your partner to reduce mental load.
  • Values “restorative hobbies,” gives herself permission for downtime rather than over-ambitious productivity in leisure.
  • Quote (22:04): “It is okay for my hobbies to be spending time with family, watching tv, napping, listening to podcasts, and stretching for a bit. That is already five things.”

6. The Inescapability of Burnout – and Facing It Head On

• Insight that burnout is cyclical; sometimes it’s dormant and then resurfaces.
  • Doree (21:22): “I think burnout is just like one of those perpetual things that sometimes is flaring up for some people and sometimes is kind of dormant and then you just feel it again.”
• On guilt and limits:
  • “There will always be more work… than time to do it. Something finally just clicked that I only have so many hours and I just can’t work beyond that. Even if it is on things that I enjoy working on. Things you enjoy is still work.”

7. Recommended Resource: 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman

• Elise (23:13):
  • “4000 Weeks is an anti productivity book. It basically acknowledges that there will never be a point where you can conquer your to do list… And so I think this burnout conversation is addressed by a lot of those ideas.”

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More Listener Strategies & Stories

8. Real-World Cases: Burnout With Young Kids + Demanding Careers

• Caller w/ 2 kids, stressful job (27:43):
  • “You can do it. It’s a really rough time in life, but it will bring you out the other side so much more powerful and self-aware and self-loving. So good luck.”
  • Suggests:
    • Recognize it’s a difficult but temporary season
    • Take real breaks for yourself (“not a family vacation”)
    • Therapy to challenge internalized overwork narratives
    • Set new boundaries on work hours
    • Find a mentor to help you see your worth and stick to boundaries
    • Be vocal about boundaries to give others permission
  • Doree/Elise (32:11–32:40):
    • Elise: “So many of us have learned to tie our self esteem to productivity or realizing our so-called potential. But if you’re trying to realize your potential, you can never stop…”

9. A Manager’s Perspective: How Bosses Can Help

• Caller: Agency manager (32:48):
  • Encourages open communication—good managers want to help retain valued employees through role adjustment, extra headcount, or deleting unnecessary stressors.
  • “As a manager, you want to protect those employees and their mental well being... If it is a company that you like... find a way to continue in a role and at a company that you like while also maintaining your mental well being.”
  • Reiterates that sometimes, switching jobs won’t solve it—the grass isn’t always greener.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “[LA] is like different subcultures in different parts of the Federation of Los Angeles.” – Elise Hu [07:26]
• “You cannot heal your burnout… if you are still on fire.” – Caller [18:19]
• “Don’t just put it on you to maintain this boundary. Engage your boss.” – Caller [19:13]
• “There will always be more work… than time to do it… Things you enjoy is still work.” – Listener email [22:04]
• “4000 Weeks is an anti productivity book. It basically acknowledges that there will never be a point where you can conquer your to do list.” – Elise Hu [23:13]
• “If you’re trying to realize your potential, then you can never stop...” – Elise Hu [32:11]
• “As a manager… protect those employees and their mental well being… the grass is not greener.” – Manager caller [33:00]

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Additional Insights

• The episode’s tone is empathetic and affirming; both hosts and listeners validate how difficult this phase can be, especially with young children.
• The emphasis is on collective action and cultural change—not just individual grit or willpower.
• Listeners underscore the value of stepping away, even briefly, and giving yourself permission to rest and be ordinary.
• There’s transparency that solutions are imperfect and burnout is iterative; small steps and forgiveness for not meeting impossible productivity standards are recurring themes.

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Concluding Takeaway

Most callers and writers agree: boundaries, communication, and self-compassion are essential. The hosts encourage the original listener (and all others) to keep sharing updates and thank the audience for making Forever35 a space for honest discussion about the struggles behind “self-care.”

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For more burnout strategies or to share your own story, reach out to Doree & Elise at forever35podcastmail.com, text/voicemail at 781-591-0390, or follow @forever35podcast on Instagram.

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End of Content Summary. Ads, intros, and outros omitted as per instructions.

Transcript

[Jeff Bridges]

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[Dana]

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[Jeff Bridges]

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[Dory Shafrir]

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[Manager Caller]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Jeff Bridges]

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[Dana]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrir]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrir]

And this is a mini episode where we hear from you, we share your comments and your thoughts, and we answer your questions to the best of our ability. But please remember our we are not experts. We're podcast hosts. And we always encourage you to seek support, first and foremost from a medical and or mental health professional as needed.

[Elise Hu]

Give me the rundown. What's on tap for the weekend?

[Dory Shafrir]

For you? What is on tap for the weekend? Just, you know, some Henry activities. Not. Not a ton.

[Elise Hu]

Your parents are in town, I thought. Right.

[Dory Shafrir]

No, next week.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, okay.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Gotcha.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

So this weekend is just prep.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, this weekend is prep. Exactly.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Okay. I am thankfully free of any volleyball commitments this weekend due to the ankle. But I had gotten this mini package of season tickets for Angel City earlier in the year, thinking, oh, my gosh, I should totally get the girls to see women's soccer, professional women's soccer, more. And I got tickets to four or five games. And have of those tickets been to one game?

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, no.

[Elise Hu]

At the very beginning of the season, you have to sign up for certain games, but I often have travel that comes up last minute, or I have other things that come up, but then I've been able to give them away to my friends who could enjoy them, because there's a set of four tickets. And finally, I think these are our last ticket. This is our last ticket set for Sunday's game. And I can actually go, and I'm going to try and get two, if not three of the girls to go and actually use these tickets that I purchased for the full season.

[Dory Shafrir]

Amazing.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yay.

[Elise Hu]

That is what that. My main objective. But otherwise, nothing huge. Nothing huge. I think it's going to be pretty quiet. The usual sports stuff for Luna. No volleyball due to the injury and. And the soccer. I don't know. They play on Saturday. They play on Sunday. It's just going to be some driving around.

[Dory Shafrir]

It's a lot.

[Elise Hu]

And then we go watch soccer Sunday night. But no EDM festivals. You know, it's going to be chill, I think for the most part. I drove myself out to Silver Lake for comedy last night, and after I got there, I was like, I have left town and I'm on another coast. It felt so far away. But how long.

[Dory Shafrir]

How long did it take you to get there?

[Elise Hu]

An hour and 10 minutes, which was much shorter than the hour and 30 that was projected when I was trying to decide whether to go and my friend Elsa was going with me. And so we. Sometimes I, like, lock myself into situations where I can't back out because I have invited someone to go, and so then I can't not go. Yes. But it's kind of a good mechanism. It's a forcing mechanism because I have been to Silver Lake about twice in the seven years I've lived in Los Angeles. Are you serious? Very rarely go to that part of town. Yeah. I've never been to, like.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, my gosh.

[Elise Hu]

I think I've been to Burbank once.

[Dory Shafrir]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

No, no, no, no. I had a series of LinkedIn lives that I had to tape in a studio in Burbank for an exorbitant amount of money. Drove there for that, but only for an exorbitant amount of money. And it was like 5:30 in the morning. So it wasn't Burbank. Even by day, otherwise, I haven't been to Burbank.

[Dory Shafrir]

That's like Naomi Campbell's. I don't get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day.

[Elise Hu]

I like that. I like that.

[Dory Shafrir]

I mean that. I think she said that in the 90s. I wonder what her.

[Elise Hu]

With inflation, what that is.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. What is. Yeah. What is her current $10,000. I'm curious. Naomi, if you're listening, let us know. Yeah. It's so funny how la, just by nature of how much traffic there is, like, people really stay within their sort of radii. And I feel like you are better than most people about getting like, outside of your radius.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Like there will go. There's just some other neighborhoods. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, for sure. For sure. I spent. I'm in K town like every other day. It seems like that's like my hood. That's my favor. Los Angeles hood. But I just really more by night, not by day. Now that I'm thinking about it. I like K town at night. I don't really love K town during the day because it's like, kind of gritty. But I am there a lot. And then I. There's certain places that don't feel far because I have driven there during hours where there isn't really bad traffic. Like, I go to Altadena and Pasadena a lot now to film the documentary. And that is very far from me. But not if you don't drive at 4pm on a Thursday. So. So there's places that, like, I've gotten over the emotional, like, barrack barrier. But then there's other places in LA that still feel very far from me, like Silver Lake or Echo Park. Never go there.

[Dory Shafrir]

This is just funny to me because those neighborhoods are like, relatively close to me and I have a lot of friends who live over there. So it's like not a. You know, I'm there a lot. Yeah, I should say so. It's just funny to get that text from you last night, being like I'm in another country. Yep.

[Elise Hu]

Everyone dresses different too. Like, me and Elsa got there and Elsa was like, all dressed up. I was in my athleisure, as usual. But there, it's kind of like a New York vibe, I think. But very dressed down. Very dressed down. Compared to like going out in Venice and then like, no valet anywhere. Like, you had to park yourself on the street. So there was just like a Different kind of, kind of different kind of culture. It's like different subcultures in different parts of the Federation of Los Angeles.

[Dory Shafrir]

So.

[Elise Hu]

True.

[Dory Shafrir]

Well, Elise, we had a question recently about burnout.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrir]

And we, I think we had a couple of responses last week, but this week the, the responses like really came flooding in, huh?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. So we'll make today's episode about burnout.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, Like, I think most of the, most of the emails and texts and calls we got were about burnout. So there's going to be that. We have a couple other topics that we're, that we're going to cover, but there's a lot about burnout, a lot of really interesting perspectives and we are still, you know, still taking your thoughts. So if you want to email them to us, you can do [e-mail] you can text us at 781-591-0390. And you can also leave us a voicemail at that number, 781-591-0390. Or email us a voice memo. My preferred method of [e-mail] and just a few other reminders, our website is forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35podcast. Our newsletter is forever35podcast.com newsletter. And our favorite products are @shopmy US Forever35. And I also just want to give another plug for our Patreon, which [e-mail] forever35. We do our weekly casual chats. We do our monthly pop culture recommendation episodes. We also have ad free episodes at the $10 level. So there's a lot going on. And you can do a seven day free trial. Check that out. So I would Recommend doing that patreon.com forever35 and after the break, we have some burnout stuff.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, we'll talk to you after the break. With the end of the year, I like to really understand where my finances are to prepare for the next year and see where I am towards my financial goals. Am I good at actually getting all that information together so I know it all? Absolutely not. But with today's sponsor, Monarch Money, I'm getting better. It's much easier because Monarch does the heavy lifting. You can link all your accounts in minutes, which is what I do. And then it shows you these clear data visuals and smart categorization of my spending and gives me real control over my money. No painful spreadsheets needed because I don't know how to do all those Excel commands and short codes and the visualizations really help me finally understand? Oh, my gosh, I'm totally overspending on eating out. For example, Monarch isn't just another finance app. It's a tool that real professionals and experts actually love. Named best budgeting app of 2025 by the Wall Street Journal, it was also named Forbes best app for couples because we all know money can break couples. But Monarch gives your partner full access to your shared dashboard, including linked accounts, budgets, goals, and spending activ in one place and at no extra cost. Limit your fights about money with no more guessing, no more hiding, no more I didn't realize we spent that much. Don't let financial opportunity slip through the cracks. Use code [e-mail] in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarch money.com with code F35.

[Dory Shafrir]

You know that moment when you have to either get your kids dinner ready or pack their lunch and you're just staring into the fridge and there's like two grapes.

[Elise Hu]

Yep. This happens a lot in my house.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yep. That's because parenthood doesn't come with a meal plan. And that's why I've stopped stressing over last minute meals and started using Little Spoon, which is today's episode sponsor. They deliver real food for babies, toddlers, and big kids straight to your door. So mealtime actually feels easy. And we are just obsessed with everything. I mean, one of the big hits at our house is the Strawberry Bonanza smoothie, which has whole milk. It's so good. Whole milk, Greek yogurt, banana, pumpkin, vanilla bean. I mean, it's, it's really good. And Henry also loves the Pizzalicious Veggie Loops, which are made with chickpeas and spinach. And I just, I love that everything they make is just loaded with hidden veggies. And I don't have to peel, chop, or beg anyone to take a bite. Everyone wins. Truly, everything is made with real ingredients. No artificial flavors, sweeteners, or dyes. It's really the rare combo of convenient and healthy. And here's the exciting part. Little Spoon is now in Target.

[Elise Hu]

Ah, Yay.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yay. Little Spoon is the mealtime hack parents can't stop talking about. Try their no prep nutrient packed meals and snacks for babies, toddlers and big kids. Get 50% off your first online order at littlespoon.com forever with code forever at checkout. That's L-T-T-L-E-S-P-O-O-N.com forever. And don't forget to use our show's code for 50% off your first order. OK, we are back. This first listener suggested that I personally look into Skillshare to teach classes without having to handle the marketing, so. Oh, interesting. I will check that out. They also say yes to quiet quitting. I stopped stressing over my job months ago after an upsetting annual review. I show up, do my work, go home, not asking for more work. If I finish up my tasks, they wouldn't blink an eye to let me go if the company was struggling financially. So I'm not going to go above and beyond. I realized I'm at a point in my career where I kind of don't care anymore about getting my identity as an interior designer from my work. Rather, my low key, low stress job is providing me the income and brain space to get my creative outlet outside the office, focus on my family and resetting my nervous system which has been in chronic fight or flight.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah, good.

[Dory Shafrir]

Love that. For you.

[Elise Hu]

I have been reading the philosophy of the Korean philosopher Byung Chul Han, which some of you will know if you It's a little bit obscure, but he lives in Germany and his whole thing is kind of like Jenny Odell's book How to Do Nothing. And it's kind of the anti Calvinist work ethic in which you really can't live life unless you are doing nothing and you're just kind of allowing for life to surprise you. And yeah, it's great to reflect on this philosophy. I mean I aspire to live a Byung Chul Han life. The only thing that holds me back are my bills. And so like being part of the system is a big problem, but I like the idea of being able to kind of step back and just say, you know what, this isn't. This isn't good for my body or my soul.

[Dory Shafrir]

So yeah, good. Good on you Elise. Do you want to read the next message? Sure.

[Elise Hu]

Hi, this message is for Dory. I think I may have said this a long time ago on your old newsletter, but I think you would do really well with private investigation and intelligence. With your background in journalism, it would be a direction I believe you could follow. This is a total shot in the dark, but thought I would share. Best of luck to you. Sending good vibes. I've been out of a job since May and the experience is beyond humbling. We got this. Also Elise, the topicals faded is a great serum for dark spots. I use it in the evening and vitamin C in the a.m. it's extremely effective. Thanks so much to both of you. And that's from our listener, Sarah. Okay. Have you ever thought about this being a PI door?

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. Because a woman I know did this. Like a former. Actually two people, two former journalists I know have gotten their PI licenses. So. Yeah, I have. I have thought about it. It's definitely, like, interesting.

[Elise Hu]

I do think you could be very good at that. You could like, just go on a deep dive on like whatever your tasks with. See what it turns up.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. You know, I have to talk to her because I'm looking at the requirements for California and it says you have to have at least three years of compensated experience in investigative work or have a law degree or completed a four year course in police science plus two years of experience or have an associate degree in police science, criminal law or justice at two and a half years of experience. So I'm curious if she was able to get the journalism career counted as investigative work.

[Elise Hu]

I imagine so.

[Dory Shafrir]

But yes, this is, this is intriguing. So we have some voicemails and a couple of emails specifically about burnout, not career suggestions for me, although I feel like it's all sort of connected. But. So this, this is a long, long one. Just want to make that, give that caveat. People had a lot to say about this. So here we go.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Caller]

This was supposed to be an email so I could write it out and it be eloquent and not rambly, but I have two kids and I work a full time job and my kids are five and three and that's just not gonna happen. So anyways, this is about burnout. And one thing that I really want to emphasize as someone who's working and has kids is like, you cannot heal your burnout. You cannot recover from it. If you are still on fire, if you are still smoldering, if there is still something that is burning, you won't heal from it. So one of the things that you really have to do if you're truly in burnout is you have to stop the fires. You have to stop what's going on. You have to take a break. You have to step away. Not a vacation where you pack everything for your kids and remember all their activity things and bustle them on planes, but something where you just stop. You step away, you. You're not working. And if you can like step away from family for a minute, like just go to a hotel, go to a friend's house, just take a couple days to be somewhere where all of Those responsibilities are not yours. And then layer it back in. But you, you really, you can't do it if you're still sort of sitting on hot coals. And then the other thing about work boundaries is one thing to reframe, it is to not put the onus on you to keep the boundary. So a lot of advice is to, like, set your boundaries and like, you know, no one can. You're not going to be responding to slacks after five and I would encourage you to talk to your boss about switching it so that this is a team wide effort. Like, no, this team does Not Slack after 5. We do not send messages or contact colleagues after 5. It is for the group. It is a boundary that we all set, that we hold for each other. And people that slack while they're on PTO or after office hours will be told to knock it off. Repeat offenders, maybe they're put on a performance improvement plan because that's not how this team operates. I work with a team that will privately slack you if you respond to an email while you're out of office and say, hey, knock it off, get out of here. Because that is our culture. We do not contact each other when we know the other person is out of office when it is after work hours. It is a collective effort. Don't just put it on you to maintain this boundary. Engage your boss. Because it's not just you, right? Like, you're probably not the only one that's experiencing this burnout. It's probably happening to all team members. Not nobody likes a slack at 7pm I don't care if you don't have kids or a family. If you're just a solo person, like, knock that shit off and good luck and all the mom stuff is a separate conversation. But anyway, okay, thanks.

[Elise Hu]

Great advice. Yeah, we were alluding to that too. Sort of like, hey, if you have a great relationship with your boss, as our original caller or correspondent did, then work with the boss to set boundaries that apply across the board, not just for you. Because if they apply just for you, then it creates this bifurcation or like separate, you know, a double standard or whatever. So, yeah, yep, love that. All right.

[Dory Shafrir]

Okay. We got this great email about burnout. Hi, Dorian, Elise, responding to the guest asking about burnout, how to handle it. I've dealt with this a lot, especially since the pandemic. You all mentioned this, but it's setting boundaries and being the example to your co workers. It's also having the boss be the person to tell everyone. Just a reminder, work Life balance is important and everyone needs to be able to step away from work after hours in my day to day when I go to lunch, I don't respond to any messages or emails. Once I sign off for the day, I don't check my emails or messages either. Another big one is any day you're not working. I mean, this is like what the caller was just saying. Be an example for your team that it's okay to take off for the rest of the day, let yourself rest up, get better, etc. If something's absolutely urgent, that's what a phone call is for. Remember the phone.

[Elise Hu]

How about that?

[Dory Shafrir]

They also said that they opened up their Forever 35 podcast feed, searched for burnout and re listened to those episodes. I mean, yeah, this is something that has come up several times over the years that we've been doing this show. I think burnout is just like one of those perpetual things that sometimes is flaring up for some people and sometimes is kind of dormant and then you just feel it again. This listener goes on to say, it made me feel like I was doing something and take care of myself. I think I've listened to every episode of this podcast and somehow it still came as a surprise to me that I was experiencing burnout. Thank you to the Forever 35 community for being a space to discuss these things. Sometimes the message has to wash over you many times to get it.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that's true.

[Dory Shafrir]

This listener also says, I have a hobby, sewing, that is easy for me to turn into work and project management, and I do enough of that at my job. Even though hobbies are supposed to be restorative, I have put this one on the back burner. For now. It is okay for my hobbies to be spending time with family, watching tv, napping, listening to podcasts, and stretching for a bit. That is already five things. I love this. As someone who has turned my hobby into work and project management, I really relate to this. Okay, I gave one household task to my husband planning dinner for a month. I'm happy to make dinner, but I need to reduce my decision making load. Just doing that one small thing has helped and I feel more appreciated for taking it on for so long. After taking these steps, I realized there will always be more work that I'm legitimately am interested in doing than time to do it. Something finally just clicked that I only have so many hours and I just can't work beyond that. Even if it is on things that I enjoy working on. Things you enjoy is still work. I feel less guilt because there is no need to feel guilt about not being able to do an impossible task. Not no guilt yet, but it is a work in progress. I've not recovered yet, but even taking small steps has felt good.

[Elise Hu]

Something I have answered when I first came on the show and did the Forever35 questionnaire is the book that I recommend to everybody. And the book that I recommend Everybody is called 4000 Weeks by Oliver Berkman. And he has like a supplemental book to that that's out I think this month called Meditations for mortals. And 4000 weeks is an anti productivity book. It basically acknowledges that there will never be a point where you can conquer your to do list. And it's liberating once you give up that quest that essentially life is more meaningful when you make choices. Knowing that we have complete, like freedom to make any choice we want, it's just we have to kind of bear the consequences of it. And so I could just decide like, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to not have dinner as a family. I want to have dinner as a family every night. And that could be a thing that I decide. But that means we give up all the other things that the kids do and like, we just have to be okay with those choices. And so I think this burnout conversation is addressed by a lot of those ideas. And so, yeah, 4,000 weeks, the book I recommend everybody, I just want to recommend one more time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Love that. All right, we are going to take another break and when we come back, we have a couple more voicemails about burnout. So we'll be right back.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrir]

All right, we are back. Here are a couple more voicemails. Like I said, this topic like people have a lot of feelings about this topic.

[Elise Hu]

It's generative.

[Manager Caller]

Yes, for the caller who called in.

[Burnout Caller]

About burnout having a two year old and a four year old and if you can recover from that, I can talk about this for half an hour. So I'm going to try to be as brief as possible, but I feel like I went through exactly what you are going through. I also had kids almost the exact same age and worked a really stressful job for many years in politics and government and after having two kids was just completely at my wit's end and didn't know what to do or if I just felt like I wasn't even cut out from my job anymore. And I was so stressed. And there were a couple things that I did to help come out of burnout. But I will preface this by saying I left my job and came back two years later. I did a different job, and then I came back. But I think you can do it in your job, too. So the first things I would say is, I think it's important to recognize that this is just a really difficult season of life when you have kids at this age. And so part of it is knowing that whatever changes you make right now in your life, or whatever you do to fix this burnout problem for yourself, it's going to look different. Your life will look different, you will feel different in only just like, two or three years when your kids get into grade school. And recognizing that really helped me while I was doing the second thing, which is really realizing that I was at a stage where I was reinventing myself as a mom, as a working mom, and really facing some of the really toxic narratives I had built around what made me worthy or valuable before kids. And it essentially built this narrative that my quality of my work and my output and my dedication to my job and working whatever hours I need to work was what made me worthy and not just my inherent worthiness. And I hadn't really stopped to realize how much of a badass I had become and where I was at my career, which was at a place that I could do the same amount of work, higher quality work than young people, and I could do that within work hours. So why did I get, like, the things I thought were the most helpful for me? Therapy. I started therapy for the first time in my life, and I have continued. It has been so helpful to change those narratives I built around myself. I took a month. I would recommend taking a month off and not like a family vacation month. This is a month for you. Maybe you can do a vacation in there for like a week. But for me, it was about, like, sitting with myself, finding some quiet time to journal, take walks, and figure out where was I spending all my time, what did I actually enjoy doing about my job, and what was I resentful about doing? Because it was taking away time from my family and the things that I really wanted and figuring out what were my principles. After you have some quiet time with yourself, come back with new boundaries. For me, it was, I'm not going to answer emails after hours. I'm not going to worry about all my emails being answered all the time, and I have to say no to more of the work, travel Find a mentor at work that's not your boss that is above you. Maybe someone who's about to retire or someone who can help you really see your own worth and to help keep you honest on your boundaries that you're setting. And then talk to your boss, it sounds like your boss is really supportive. And talk to him about your new boundaries and have him help keep you honest. Because once you set that tenor with him or her, they will be able to say, hey, aren't you supposed to be gone? Aren't you supposed to have left at five if they're a good boss? And that's really supportive because it doesn't feel like every time you have to like ask permission to leave on time and talk about it with others in your office and say, oh, I'm leaving because I gotta go pick up my kid or I'm working in the classroom today because the more you say it out loud, the more people respond to you too and will say, you'll hear people say good for you, like yes, go, go do that. And you're also giving permission to the people next in line under you to see that they can do that. So you can do it. It's a really rough time in life, but it will bring you out the other side so much more powerful and self aware and self loving. So good luck.

[Elise Hu]

It is true that like because of the underpinnings of America and because of this economic system that we're under, like so many of us have learned to tie our self esteem to productivity or realizing our so called potential. But if you're trying realize your potential, then you can never stop because what if there's more potential to realize? So, so I really like what she had to say about just like taking a beat and really reflecting.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. All right, we're just going to play one more voicemail because I did want to get to all of these.

[Manager Caller]

Hi, I'm calling in. I was listening to mini S463 and you had a caller who was in the advertising space with two young children and role and career that she was facing burnout. As someone who was in advertising for a very long time and I was in a senior management position where I had a large team. If one of my employees, especially if you have been there a long time, you're a high performer, came to me and was saying that they were facing burnout, I would do so much for them to try to retain that employee. So I think if you have a good relationship with your boss, please go to her because having employees who are performing well and have a history of that. As a manager, you want to protect those employees and their mental well being. I have done things where you delegate parts of the role that are specifically stressful to employees. I have done things for my team where we add headcount because it's just too demanding overall for the team. We've reimagined roles and responsibilities 10 different ways, 10 different times. So based on the feedback that you give your boss, there's oftentimes levers that they can pull within the team or within the structural, you know, between departments to help ease the stress of the role and. Absolutely. Those norms, like slack in the middle of the night. No, I would put up a boundary there. And any other thing that's stressing you out that's not really contributing to your performance, that's just noise. Get rid of it. Best of luck to you. I know there are a lot of highs and lows in advertising too, so you can just ride it out and take the vacation. Ask for the change that you need. If it is a company that you like and a role and position that like you really like, the grass is not greener like you're probably. If you went somewhere else, the stress would probably still be there. So I would find my advice would be to find a way to continue in a role and at a company that you like while also maintaining your mental well being. So best of luck and hope. Hope you feel better soon.

[Elise Hu]

Very sweet.

[Dory Shafrir]

I really, I really was thrilled to get all of these voicemails and texts and emails and I think it just highlights like how pervasive a problem this is. But that does, you know, a lot of people were saying it's, it's important to set boundaries and communicate. I think that's like the big lesson. So I don't know. Original listener. Let us know how it goes. If you talk to your boss, you. If you set those boundaries. All right, well, thanks everyone for listening and we will talk to you soon.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, talk to you next time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Bye.

[Elise Hu]

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