Mini-Ep 468: When You “Don’t Fit”

Summary

Forever35 – Mini-Episode 468: When You "Don't Fit"

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Date: November 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this dynamic mini-episode, Doree and Elise tackle the emotionally charged terrain of aging parents—including tech challenges, dementia care, and practical support services—while weaving in their signature humor and warmth. Listeners' voicemails drive much of the conversation, offering both practical tips and emotional solidarity. The hosts also share amusing tangents about TV culture, household hacks, and close with a thought-provoking call on societal attitudes toward thinness and health, underscoring the complexity of body acceptance and medical bias.

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Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. Navigating Aging Parents and Screen Time

• Generational Challenges with Technology
  • Elise discusses the influx of AI-generated, often nonsensical videos her father shares, paralleling discourse around children's screen time with the less acknowledged but real issue of "boomer screen time."
  • (02:08) Elise Hu:

    "We talk so much. There's so much discourse about kids and screen time. But what about our parents and screen time?"

  • Doree relates, mentioning monitoring her mother’s YouTube consumption and the unique risks tied to seniors' digital payments and scams.
• Reflection on Technology-Free Elders
  • Doree shares that her grandparents never had the internet—once frustrating, now something she views more positively given current digital landscape pitfalls.
  • (04:14) Doree Shafrir:

    "In retrospect, I'm like, you know what? It's probably for the best that they did not have the Internet."

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2. Listener Voicemails: Caregiving for Aging Parents

A. Hiring a Senior Care Consultant

• (13:03–16:34) Listener details how a senior care consultant helped manage her parents’ transition to assisted living, including:
  • Navigating stubbornness, activating long-term insurance, and finding appropriate facilities and aides.
  • Services extended to move managers who complete the downsizing and moving process.
• Advice:
  • If financially possible, investing in professional help alleviated massive stress—and, as the caller joked, it “was definitely cheaper than the extra therapy appointments I would have needed.”
  • (15:53) Listener Quote:

    "...if you can scrape together even a little bit of cash for some time with a senior care consultant, it was truly a lifesaver for us."

B. Dealing with Dementia—"Meeting People Where They Are"

• (18:12–20:28) Listener shares about her father’s dementia, recommending empathetic, moment-based caregiving instead of struggling for “logic” or reality.
  • “It's really hard not to get frustrated and sad and mad at them when they're...not being the parent that you are used to having. It's a long term period of mourning for them while they are still alive.”
  • Using redirection and comfort within the loved one’s perceived reality can yield more joyful moments.
• Doree and Elise resonate with the advice, discussing their parents’ health and support needs, and emphasizing the emotional labor on caregivers more than patients.

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3. Quick Hits: Humor and Life Updates

• Deadwood and TV Star Mysteries
  • Elise recounts her anticipation for a trip to Deadwood, SD, and the ongoing joke with her husband about the prominence of actress Molly Parker on LA billboards.
• Soccer Mom Season Ends
  • Elise is relieved as her daughter’s packed soccer season concludes, with light banter about the exhaustion involved.

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4. Listener Advice & Life Hacks

A. Towel Overhaul

• (21:22–22:43) A listener recommends Costco bath sheets for their size and value.
  • Elise contemplates the catharsis of purging mismatched towels and socks, suggesting recurring household “refreshes.”

B. Solidarity in Caregiving

• Doree underlines the importance of sharing stories to break isolation:
  • (21:04) Doree Shafrier:

    "I think it's like comforting to people to hear that other people are going through the same stuff."

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5. Weight Loss, Thinness, and Medical Bias

• Speech-Language Pathologist’s Soapbox (26:10–29:38)
  • The final voicemail brings a sobering perspective: patients with serious illness may celebrate extreme, unintentional weight loss due to cultural bias favoring thinness.
  • The caller urges a shift in focus from size to health and function:

    "...our culture, even when you were that sick, still [sees] skinniness as being the goodness of a person."

• Elise strongly agrees, referencing body liberation journalist Virginia Sole-Smith and the dangers of conflating thinness with health.
  • (29:38) Elise Hu:

    "Thinness does not necessarily equal health. ...A lot of doctors have anti-fat bias. ...We problematize bodies that don't ‘fit’... then we create this market for a solution."

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On intergenerational tech anxiety:
  • “I now have to like, treat my parents like my children when it comes to screen time.” — Doree, 02:57
• Caregiver burnout and boundaries:
  • “You don’t have to make your job your identity. …You could also just do the job and have a rich life outside of work.” — Elise, 08:47
• Dementia caregiving:
  • “It’s a long term period of mourning for them while they are still alive. …But you can still have some joyful moments with them if you just kind of meet them where they’re at.” — Listener, 19:00
• Household hacks as self-care:
  • “Maybe we give all of our towels to the vet and we just start fresh... I feel this way about socks every once in a while.” — Elise, 22:12
• Cultural bias on health:
  • “I routinely would have to fight for patients to get, you know, alternative means of nutrition... because it was not okay that they were losing this much weight.” — Listener, 28:00

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Parental Screen Time, Boomers & Tech | 01:43–04:39 | | Listener: Senior Care Consultant & Move Managers | 13:03–16:34 | | Listener: Dementia—Meeting People Where They Are | 18:12–20:28 | | Listener: Towel (and Household) Refresh Advice | 21:22–22:43 | | Listener: Thinness, Health & Medical Bias Perspective | 26:10–29:38 | | Body Acceptance: Reflections on Medicine & Culture | 29:38–31:09 |

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Conclusion

This mini-episode underscores the realities—and shared vulnerabilities—of caring for aging parents, navigating household chaos, and resisting societal pressures about bodies and self-worth. With the Forever35 community at its core, Doree, Elise, and their listeners cultivate both practical wisdom and a supportive environment for listeners “who don’t fit,” in any sense of the phrase.

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Transcript

[Elise Hu]

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[Listener Caller 1]

You look the same.

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[Dory Shafreer]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafreer]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafreer.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk about serums.

[Dory Shafreer]

And this is a mini episode where we hear from you, we share your comments and your thoughts, and we answer your questions to the best of our ability. But please remember, we are not experts. We are podcast hosts. And we always encourage you to seek support first and foremost from a medical and or mental health professional as needed.

[Elise Hu]

We've gotten a lot of mailbag content about the Vanessa Gregor episode where she talks about taking care of elderly parents. It sounds like she has that new show. So your parents are old and it turns out a lot of our parents are old. As it turns out.

[Dory Shafreer]

Yeah. I think this is something that a lot of people are going through.

[Elise Hu]

I have been thinking a lot about how, you know, Donald Trump sends all those AI slop generated videos, like the one where famously he's in the cockpit of a plane and just like defecating over Americans, which is just AI slot video. And he loves sending this stuff. And you know, my dad's been sending it to me too, but not the same content, but also like he sent one where Trump and Xi Jinping, Chinese leader Xi Jinping, are like in a physical brawl. Also AI generated nonsense. And so this whole. The whole boomers and screen time discussion needs to be had. Like, we talk so much. There's so much discourse about kids and screen time. But what about our parents and screen time?

[Dory Shafreer]

Well, you know, it's funny you say that because I saw something somewhere that someone was like, I now have to like, treat my parents like my children when it comes to screen time. I'm here, like monitoring what my mom is watching on YouTube.

[Elise Hu]

That. And it's more dangerous with them, though, because they have their phones often connected to digital payments in a way that toddlers don't. I mean, there's all the stories about toddlers accidentally making all these in app purchases on Roblox and that we can stop. You know, it can be kind of predatory with these in app purchases. But I feel like with seniors, because they have online banking or a lot of them have online banking set up for them, it's really easy for them to be taken for a ride by various classes and courses people are selling or in app purchases.

[Dory Shafreer]

That's so true. That's so true. You know, it's funny, my grandparents who my grandmother died in 2016 and my grandfather died in 2019, so like, long after the Internet had sort of entered people's homes, but they never had the Internet. They were just sort of like, you know what? We're not, we're just not going to do this.

[Elise Hu]

My grandma too.

[Dory Shafreer]

And it was like, kind of annoying because it was like, harder to keep in touch with them. But now in retrospect, I'm like, you know what? It's probably for the best that they did not have the Internet.

[Elise Hu]

I'm really scared. It's brain rotting. My dad, like, he's just sending so much nonsense. Yeah, it can brain rot. I mean, we know that it brain rots us. Why wouldn't it brain rot senior citizens who spend all day in front of a screen?

[Dory Shafreer]

Yeah, you know, good point, good point.

[Elise Hu]

Anyway, so your parents are old.

[Dory Shafreer]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

A perennial topic.

[Dory Shafreer]

A perennial topic. What else is happening with you?

[Elise Hu]

By the time this airs, I will be back from Deadwood, South Dakota, reliving my HBO show of the aughts dreams. I loved Deadwood. Deadwood. The show. The show. I haven't been to Deadwood just yet as of this taping, but the show really stands alone, I think, as one of the best television westerns of all time, if not the best television western of all time. So, so, so good. Rob and I have this running joke right now because in Los Angeles there's all these billboards of this new TV show called Doc and you'll see a The. You'll see DOC over this woman's image. And then above Doc, it says Molly Parker. And we're all like, molly Parker. Should we know who Molly Parker is? And now every time we drive by one of these, it's like, oh, look, it's the big show starring Molly Parker. We have no idea who Molly Parker is, but the way they're promoting it, it's as if, like, it's Angelina Jolie. Like, we should know who Molly Parker is. And so we were like, is this some sort of elaborate ruse? You know, where it's like, they play her up to be some big star? And so we assume she's a big star starring on this new show called doc, for which there are billboards everywhere. And I finally looked her up, and she was on Deadwood.

[Dory Shafreer]

She was all, oh, my gosh, that's so funny.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. So now I'm like, oh, Molly Parker. That's Molly Parker.

[Dory Shafreer]

Oh, my gosh, that's so funny.

[Elise Hu]

Who will now be playing a doctor. But, yeah, so I've got a couple weekend things. I've got Deadwood for one of my bestie's birthdays, and then I have Atlanta next weekend. It's Atlanta for ted. TED has a big main stage in Atlanta now. It used to be TED Women, and now it's TED Next, and it's where I got to give my TED Talk. And so it is a return to Atlanta, and then the following weekend, a quick trip up to San Francisco. So a bunch of, whoa, November weekend trips. Yeah. But thankfully, thankfully, Luna's soccer season is coming to an end. Oh, this weekend. I know. It was so much soccer. I mean, it was like even a lot of soccer for you to have to listen to me drone on and on about.

[Dory Shafreer]

So, no, that's coming to an end for now. I was. I was just sort of like, wow, that's a lot of soccer.

[Elise Hu]

We have a tournament in December, like a travel tournament, but the official season is over.

[Dory Shafreer]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, they did great. They've grown a lot.

[Dory Shafreer]

Well, Lise, before we take a break, we got an interesting voicemail related to a comment that I guess you made that I had sort of forgotten about. But here is. Here is the voicemail.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Listener Caller 1]

Hi there.

[Listener Caller 2]

Pause the pod moment from Sarah in Minneapolis. I am listening to Minnie Gospel 67, and you're talking about helping a kid find what they want to do. And Elise mentioned, think of the thing that you would do that you don't. The thing that you would do without getting paid to do. Now, up until Covid I worked in theater, like live theater, as a stage manager. And I did it because I had the same mentality of do something that you love to do and would do even without getting paid. I cannot help burned out. I got and so unbelievably like, taken advantage of by the end of. And I no longer love theater. I can't go see anything. So I get the instinct behind it. But I like lost my entire identity and my sense of self and I regret following that advice. So just something to about.

[Listener Caller 3]

Thanks so much.

[Elise Hu]

Bye. Yeah, yeah, I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm sorry to hear that something that you really loved and brought you energy and life is now kind of like you have to avoid because the workplace culture was so, you know, oppressive. Yeah, the back half of that answer. Well, it was sort of like it was two parts, right? It was either find something that you love, that you feel like wouldn't be a job, because that sort of, you know, might most align with your heart. But the other was like, you don't have to make your job your identity. You could also just do the job and have a rich life outside of work. So you could like do a job as a bill payment processor or something. That sounds like maybe not what we were put on earth to do, but you could do it well and then have a life rich with hobbies. So totally. Yeah. Good, good note. Appreciate it and sorry to hear about that.

[Dory Shafreer]

Yeah. All right, before we take a break, just a reminder. You can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and we have a big announcement about our newsletter, which is that it has moved to Patreon. We are now consolidating all of that stuff on Patreon, but it is still free. So all you have to do is join the Patreon at the free tier, again, free. And you will get the newsletter. And you can also, you know, check out the paid tiers and do a free trial. So that's another thing you can do. But in the meantime, to. To keep getting our newsletter, just join Patreon at the free tier and the newsletter will be moving over to Patreon. So that's at patreon.com forever35 and we send out the newsletter a couple times a month. We have some pod highlights, product reviews. Sometimes we have exclusive discounts, giveaways. There's other bonus content. It's always like a funny TikTok. I mean, it's popping off Our website is forever35podcast.com. Our Instagram is forever35podcast. You can also sign up for a newsletter just the [e-mail] newsletter. We have a link there to the Patreon and our favorite products are at Shopmy Us Forever 35. And when we come back we have a couple voicemails about aging parents and a towel wreck.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be right back.

[T-Mobile Spokesperson 1]

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[T-Mobile Spokesperson 2]

Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage?

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[T-Mobile Spokesperson 2]

Teach me Saldana oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[T-Mobile Spokesperson 1]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Dory Shafreer]

Nice.

[T-Mobile Spokesperson 2]

Jeffrey, you heard them.

[T-Mobile Spokesperson 1]

T Mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition. So what are we having for lunch?

[T-Mobile Spokesperson 2]

Dude, my work here is done.

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[Elise Hu]

I talk too much?

[Verizon Spokesperson]

I just let it go.

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[Elise Hu]

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[BetterHelp/K18 Spokesperson]

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[Elise Hu]

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[BetterHelp/K18 Spokesperson]

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[Elise Hu]

Foreign.

[Dory Shafreer]

We are back and as as I said, we have a couple voicemails.

[Listener Caller 1]

Hi guys, I had a pause the POD moment when you guys were talking about aging parents. I am currently dealing with my own aging parents and my mom is still very active, but my dad has dementia and both of them are extremely stubborn. My mom had to literally get to a breaking point in order to accept help, but one of the absolute best things that we did was hire a senior care consultant which is a little bit different than a care manager that you guys talked about. POD the consultant was shockingly reasonable in terms of cost and is a licensed social worker who helped my mom and me deal with getting immediate help in terms of at home aids and also long term help in terms of finding an independent slash assisted living place where they could live together as a couple with support. My parents also had a long term insurance policy that was nearly impossible for us to get activated, but the consultant was able to do so in five minutes on the phone, which was a lifesaver. And their insurance pays for their personal aid. So the consultant works with a team of other licensed social workers. They know what questions to ask assisted living places, they have connections to independent aides, they have connections to agencies. They did an evaluation with my parents over zoom immediately in order to determine what kind of services and help they needed. And they helped guide us through this whole journey in a way that was just a massive support to both me and my folks, and especially this generation. I feel like they're never going to listen to their kids. We're giving them reasonable and knowledgeable advice, or not knowledgeable advice, but they'll listen to other people. We paid 2,500, I believe, and this is in the New York City area where things cost a bajillion dollars for anything. But the consultant also was able to give us recommendations for things like elder care, lawyers, moving services. And then when we actually got down to the nitty gritty of downsizing my parents and moving them into a facility, the consultants were able to hook us up with move managers who are another whole realm of angels on earth. The move managers were a group of, of course, primarily women who you pay to come in and help you and your parents do the downsizing. They get rid of the trash, they get rid of things to donate, they pack them up, they move their stuff, they unpack their stuff, and they set up the house, they hung pictures, put away dishes. It was amazing and it was the best money I have ever spent to just handle this. It was definitely cheaper than the extra therapy appointments I would have needed to get through this myself. I really hate to say throw money at the problem because so many of us don't have money to throw at this problem, but if you can scrape together even a little bit of cash for some time with a senior care consultant, it was truly a lifesaver for us.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you. Thanks for the call. I didn't even know about this service. I'm in a similar boat where my mom is 12 years younger than my dad and so she's very active and going on like seven to eight international trips a year. Half of them she takes my dad, but then the others, like she's bird, she's doing like a bird photography thing in Iceland or where that's her hobby that she's, you know, living out. And he doesn't come along and then I'm constantly worried about him like falling because they have so many stairs in their condo.

[Dory Shafreer]

I'm just. Right. It's very stressful. Yeah, yeah. My mom is five years younger than my dad and so far, can you tell the difference? You know, in some ways, yes. In some ways, no. My dad has been losing his hearing for like 30 years and only in the last like year or two finally agreed to get hearing aids. So that has made a huge difference. Huge. But you know, my dad goes to the gym for three hours a day. Like he is obsessive gym rat. About the gym. Yeah. You know, he's an 80 year old gym rat. So in terms of like physical shape.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, he's in great shape.

[Dory Shafreer]

He's in great shape. Yeah. But yeah, this is a good tip. Like this listener said, if you have the resources to hire a consultant, seems like a good move. All right, we have another voicemail. Hi guys.

[Listener Caller 1]

I had another pause the pod moment later in the episode about talking about aging parents in terms of how to deal with folks with dementia. My father has dementia and has had it for a number of years and it's so much harder on the people around him than it is on him. To a certain extent. He is in his own world and it is hard and frustrating for those of us trying to get him to do something like eat or go to the bathroom than it is for him. So one tip that I've done and I've recommended to others is kind of just meet your parent where they're at if they are in 1955 thinking that it's their teenagers and their sister is off at work and they're going to school, then yes, meet them in 1955 and they're going to school and redirect. It's kind of like dealing with toddlers, but large toddlers who are physically grown ups. But the number of times I've sat there and said to my dad, oh yeah, you're sister is at school right now, but she'll be back later. So why don't we go get you a snack and then we'll talk about the birds that are outside because doesn't that look cool? And it's really hard not to get frustrated and sad and mad at them when they're not doing things that you're used to them doing. And they're not being the parent that you are used to having. It's a long term period of mourning for them while they are still alive. And you're seeing them deteriorate, which is heartbreaking and sad. But you can still have some joyful moments with them if you just kind of meet them where they're at. I hope that helps, folks. It's. It's really a hard road.

[Elise Hu]

My dad is on that road. Like he's. I mean, he's not quite there yet where he's in different eras, but he's not remembering. And so there's only one direction that goes though. Some people say there's like this moment of clarity towards the end. But yeah, I think like, he's very joyful. You know what I mean? Like, he doesn't. He's unbothered by this because he doesn't. No, he's like not conscious that.

[Dory Shafreer]

Right, right. That.

[Elise Hu]

You know, it's my mom who's really stressed out.

[Dory Shafreer]

I imagine, like a burden. Stressful. Yeah, of course.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafreer]

This stuff is hard.

[Elise Hu]

Uhhuh.

[Dory Shafreer]

Thank you all for sharing these stories and please keep them coming. I think it's like comforting to people to hear that other people are going through the same stuff. And now, on a completely different note, we have a towel recommendation. Look, we contain multitudes, Elise.

[Elise Hu]

We sure do. Like Maya Angelou says. Yes.

[Dory Shafreer]

All right. Leslie in North Carolina says, long time, first time with a wreck for Costco bath sheets. And she specified the bath sheets because they are larger than towels. They're giant hand towels and bath mats. We have matching white sets for all of our bathrooms so we can wash and spot clean all pieces together and easily. Love the POD and y'.

[Elise Hu]

All.

[Dory Shafreer]

Leslie.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Maybe I need to just get rid of every towel set in my house because there's different ones. There's like some for the guest house and there's some for the kids bathroom and there's some for here. And they don't all match. And so then they have to. Then we have to get them to the right place, you know, because it's like, oh, these are my towels for my bathroom versus, oh, these are the kids towels.

[Dory Shafreer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And now Rob has brought in his towels and I'm just like, okay, maybe we give all of our towels to the vet or the emergency vet, because they always need those. And we just start fresh. Just start fresh and buy a bunch of towels that are interchangeable for all of the bathrooms. I feel this way about socks every once in a while where I'm like, I can't deal with trying to match these socks. And there's so many different, like, patterns and brands and. Why don't we just all have the same socks?

[Dory Shafreer]

I mean, yeah, that, that, that seems like it would solve a lot of problems.

[Elise Hu]

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Great wreck. Keep the towel wrecks coming.

[Dory Shafreer]

You know what, what can't Costco do, honestly? All right. Okay. We're going to take another break. And after the break, we have an interesting voicemail related to the conversation that we had with Cadence Debuss. Okay, so we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be right back.

[Dory Shafreer]

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[Elise Hu]

I get it.

[BetterHelp/K18 Spokesperson]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafreer]

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[Listener Caller 3]

I just had to pause the pod when you guys were talking about body types and exercise and GLP1s and all this stuff that's kind of going on right now in our culture. I am a speech language pathologist who worked extensively with patients with feeding and swallowing disorders. So I routinely would see patients who had lost huge amounts of weight, not intentionally, but because they were having either a disease process or having difficulty swallowing. And it always blew my mind how they would routinely just be like, yeah, this is great, I love 50 pounds. And I'm like, you can't eat. And it was just so worrisome to me that our culture, even when you were that sick, still like the focus and the emphasis on skinniness being like the goodness of a person and how amazing a person is and that's the only thing that should matter. And I would get so angry, not at the patient obviously, but like just in general that that's the lens that they would see this through and not like, holy shit, like this is a big problem and I should be really, really concerned. Like 9 times out of 10 these patients would just be like, yeah, I lost some weight, but it was good because I needed to lose £50. And it's like, no, not this way. And similar to what your guest was saying, the muscle loss was like unbelievable. And it's just a certain type of look and it's really unsettling to me as a person that we continue to not focus on strength and how our body functions versus how it looks. And doctors also would kind of see people through that lens and routinely kind of make comments that it was good that they lost. Lost the weight for whatever reason. And I routinely would have to fight for patients to get, you know, alternative means of nutrition or supplements or something because it was not okay that they were losing this much weight. And even doctors would sometimes just be like, no, it's fine. Like, we need them to lose the weight, so it's okay. And it's like, nope, this is. They're losing muscle. So that is my soapbox. And I'm sorry for rambling, but I similarly feel kind of mixed about these GLP ones. Like, I have friends and family who are on them, and I know they have a place and are a good thing for a lot of people. But I also think, like, there's just this, like, magic bulletness about it that is wrong. But at the same time, I think it's great that people have access to something that can help them lose the weight if they've done, if they're doing all the things that they should be doing. And I'm not trying to make or pass judgment on that. It's just more of looking at this drug as part of a bigger system that can happen when we're talking about nutrition and health and wellness and not just like, okay, I'm going to take this pill and lose weight. I'm so happy you guys continue to have these difficult conversations. And again, none of this is in judgment of people taking whatever they need to do to get their body to a place that is healthy. That's all. And I'm sorry this is so long. Bye.

[Elise Hu]

We have to remind folks over and over again, and there's lots of body acceptance writers and activists who can say this much better than me, but thinness does not necessarily equal health. Thinness is conflated with good health. But often there are thin people who are deeply unhealthy. Like very, very unhealthy. And then the same thing the other way. Like, fatness doesn't mean lack of health necessarily. And our medical system, a lot of doctors have anti fat bias. And so this shows up with doctors more than we'd like, I thought. Virginia Sol Smith wrote really well and, like, summarized a lot of research on this very cogently in her book Fat Talk, which came out a couple of years ago. So this reminds me of a lot of Virginia Sol Smith's work on this. She's a body acceptance and body liberation journalist who is now on Patreon. We should mention her Newsletter Burnt Toast is now on Patreon. But yeah, it pisses me off the way that our beauty standards are so tied to capitalism and that we problematize bodies that don't fit, quote unquote don't fit. And then we create this market for a solution and how immovable it feels to confront industry. I mean, this is largely what Flawless was about.

[Dory Shafreer]

Yeah, totally.

[Elise Hu]

It's. Yeah, so we hear you. You're preaching to the choir. Preach, preach on. Let's not over conflate sinus with health.

[Dory Shafreer]

Amen. Well Elise, it's been great to see you and talk to you listeners. Thanks as always. And just again, a reminder, Visit us at Patreon.com Forever35 for for our newsletter. Just sign up at the free tier and you will get our newsletter from now on on Patreon. All right everybody, thanks again and we'll talk to you soon.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time.

[Dory Shafreer]

Bye.

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