Dory Shafrir (2:28)

Wow, that's a deep cut.

Elise Hu (2:31)

Yeah. So maybe I will let you do most of the advice giving today.

Dory Shafrir (2:37)

Well, before we get into that, I just want to mention that we are running a sale on our Patreon right now@patreon.com Forever35. It's 20% off for the next, like, week. Ish. And if you're listening to this on the morning of December 10, it is not too late to join the Patreon and come to our casual chat live recording today.

Elise Hu (3:02)

Yes.

Dory Shafrir (3:02)

At 7:30pm Eastern, 4:30 Pacific, we'll be chatting live on Patreon. And you just have to be a paid Patreon member to get access to that recording. So come check it out.

Elise Hu (3:16)

Yeah, I'm really excited about that. Also, the other cool thing about Patreon is I feel like our community is in conversation constantly anyway, because we have the running chats going, we have a general chat going and a separate pop culture chat going. So if you're a Patreon member, you can jump in on that at any time. And people just kind of shout out with some questions and things that they're looking for or stuff that they're watching and reading that they like on the pop culture chats. And it's fun. And I've gotten a lot of great recommendations and solidarity and things like that on there. So if you're not already on those chats, you can join us there at any time.

Dory Shafrir (3:54)

Very cool.

Dory Shafrir (3:56)

Well, Elise, I know you're not feeling great, but what's been going on with you?

Elise Hu (4:03)

Oh, we have a big shoot coming up for Windswept, my documentary, because Christmas Tree Lane is going to get lit up again. So in Altadena, California, which burned in the Eaton fire in January, they have, I think, the oldest Christmas tree lane in America, if I'm not mistaken. And it is on Santa Rosa Avenue. It's lined with just giant pine trees or what looks like Christmas trees. And the Christmas Tree Lane association there will spend a gazillion dollars setting up very elaborate lights for a big tree lighting ceremony that the community has. And then all sorts of people drive in from all over Southern California to see it. I think this year they're expecting 15,000 people at the Christmas Tree Lane lighting And some of our characters, one of our characters that I'm following who was displaced by the especially, she lives off of Christmas tree light. And her father, he's a set lighting director for in. In film and television. And so he volunteered to help with the lights this year. And they did this like father daughter volunteering with the Christmas Association. And then it's finally going to get all lit up. The mom. They have a party at their house every year and they didn't even know if they were going to have it this year because they didn't know if they were going to be back in their house that had been all smoke damaged and became a biohazard because the fridge was like melting. The food was like melting out of the fridge. Cause they were evacuated for so long. So it's a real homecoming and a holiday celebration. And yeah, we're gonna have kind of like a seven person crew for Saturday. So I've been doing a lot of talking, just directing and getting stuff organized and figuring things out.

Dory Shafrir (5:54)

Cool.

Elise Hu (5:56)

Yeah. Really excited about that.

Elise Hu (5:59)

And there's not. I think this is going to be a pretty chill month, knock on wood. So I'm hoping to spend some time at home and wind down the school year or this part of this school semester with the girls. The holiday parties have kind of begun. Rob and I went to a holiday party last night that was mostly outdoors. So it was kind of cold. It was like in a gigantic parking lot area of like a warehouse or a studio or something. And there were like 500 some people there and they had foods that don't belong together. They were serving some not delicious food that I just want to shout out. Like, they had grape flavored popcorn cups. So first of all, grape and popcorn.

Elise Hu (6:49)

But the gimmick, it's grape popcorn in liquid nitrogen. So that when you bite into the popcorn and then breathe out, you know it makes like the little. You can like see your breath.

Dory Shafrir (7:05)

That is why it's cold outside.

Elise Hu (7:08)

Yes. So yeah, it's not delicious. It's not delicious. Didn't love that.

Elise Hu (7:16)

There were some. There were some foods that I really liked. There was a dumpling. There was a dumpling food truck. That was yummy. There were fried mushrooms. That was a fail. That was too much batter. This is what went wrong. It was the batter to mushroom ratio was off. I like a fried mushroom, but the batter needs to not overpower the mushroom. So that went wrong. It might have been the wrong type of mushroom. They used oyster mushrooms to batter and fry. And I feel like you should just use Like a standard button mushroom. Right.

Dory Shafrir (7:48)

I feel like oyster mushrooms are too delicate.

Elise Hu (7:51)

Yes, well, yes. Which, which meant that you would have like a little sliver of oyster mushroom. Because they were cut up. You'd have like a sliver of oyster mushroom but then a giant, you know, head of batter all over it. And so it just didn't. That was a fail. So yes to the dumplings. Yes to the pizza. I love a pop up pizza oven station. No to popcorn on dry ice.

Dory Shafrir (8:20)

I'd like to have a word with the cater.

Elise Hu (8:24)

Fruit flavored popcorn on dry ice.

Dory Shafrir (8:28)

Wow.

Elise Hu (8:28)

This exists? Yeah. Who knew? Who knew?

Dory Shafrir (8:32)

Okay.

Sponsor Voice (8:34)

All right.

Elise Hu (8:35)

Anyway, how about you? How's your recovery from traveling? Are you just getting back into the groove of life?

Dory Shafrir (8:41)

Yeah, I, I played tennis yesterday morning. So we got back Tuesday afternoon and we had left Boston at like 8am so it was like 5am LA time and we had been up since like 5:40 Boston time. So like 2:45. And then I went to bed, you know, at sort of a normal hour. I think I went to bed at like 9ish, but woke up at like 4:30. And so I went to play tennis at 8am and during like the first game I was like, oh, I have a splitting headache. But fortunately, because I am like crazy and have so much stuff in my tennis bags such that I'm prepared for most emergencies, I had Advil, so I took some Advil and then it was fine.

Elise Hu (9:32)

What a relief.

Dory Shafrir (9:33)

And it was nice to get back out on the courts after not doing anything for a week, you know, moving my body wise. So.

Elise Hu (9:43)

Yeah, yeah, I'll bet. Good. Yeah.

Sponsor Voice (9:47)

Yeah.

Dory Shafrir (9:47)

But yeah, kind of, you know, recovering and also sort of like, oh, there's only like two more weeks of school and like all the, you know, the end of the year just is sort of like rapidly approaching and it's crazy. So that's kind of where I'm at.

Elise Hu (10:06)

I told the girls I want to have a very austere holiday season this year and not buy like a ton of gifts. And so I had them kind of send me their lists and told them I was going to pick like one big thing from the list and maybe do stockings instead of just like buying whatever and then losing control.

Dory Shafrir (10:25)

Yeah.

Elise Hu (10:27)

And so I want to be very directed about it and then coordinate with all their other loved ones and tell them like, okay, I'm gonna get this. What are you getting? So that there's no duplicates. Because that happens every once in a while from the different sides of the family and things.

Dory Shafrir (10:40)

So I'm trying to keep it.

Elise Hu (10:43)

Keep it. I'm trying to. Right size. Right size the holidays. So it's not just a bunch of crazy consumerism and then me having to sell it on Depop. Sell these items on Depop six months later. Oh, did I tell you I'm. I'm on a bit of a Depop tear?

Dory Shafrir (10:59)

No.

Elise Hu (11:00)

Yeah, I just. Ava gave me a garbage bag full of just stuff. She didn't want to open it up. I opened it up, and it was like a trove of things that teenagers would want. You know, she has, like, one of those giant Taylor Swift 1989 hoodie blankets, which was like 80 or $90 when we bought it, which I can probably sell for maybe half of that. She has. She actually has a lot of eras to her merch that I can probably get rid of. But she told me she thinks that. She thinks that after Life of a Showgirl kind of flopped critically, at least that some Swifties are just kind of off the train. And so I think there's a lot of Taylor Swift merch being sold on Depop right now.

Dory Shafrir (11:44)

Oh, that's interesting.

Elise Hu (11:46)

Yeah. So I don't know if I am gonna move that product very quickly, but I'm moving Rob's vintage stuff really quickly.

Dory Shafrir (11:54)

Oh, that's interesting.

Elise Hu (11:56)

He has, like, his dad's old Zegna sweaters and things from the 80s or 90s, and they are, like, gone. He had, like, this really soft Velvet Underground tee that he just thought was, like, a little bit small that I think he had originally gotten at a thrift shop himself in New York in 2003, and that sold immediately for like, 50 bucks. So maybe I underpriced it. Yeah, I think I underpriced it. I think it was like a very super limited edition tea. He had an old KCRW hat that sold really fast. So now I'm just like, what do you need to sell, buddy? Because I'm gonna, like, arbitrage your old belongings.

Dory Shafrir (12:35)

Sounds like he's a gold mine.

Elise Hu (12:37)

I. It's supplementing my income. I think I've made, like, 175 bucks in the week. Depop is just like my side gig now.

Dory Shafrir (12:47)

I love it. This is so great. And you can just continue to mine Rob's closet and his storage bins. Well, Elise, we're going to take a short break, and when we come back, we have an interesting question for you, I guess, sort of for both of us, but mostly directed to you about dealing with nerves when you're public speaking, which I thought was so interesting and just a reminder that you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com Our website is forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. Our Instagram is Forever35 podcast and our newsletter is now on Patreon and that is@patreon.com Forever35. Again we have a special sale going on right now, 20% off monthly or annual memberships and you can shop our favorite products at shop my us forever 35 and we will be right back.

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Dory Shafrir (16:11)

All right, we are back. And here is the question I mentioned before the break. Elise, you mentioned in the last mini app about your modeling that you get nervous speaking in front of people, but you're a podcaster and you've done a TED Talk. Do you or Dory or anyone else have advice for dealing with those nerves? I get really nervous, but a friend asked me to officiate her wedding next year. I want to do it, but I also don't want to ruin her big day with my shaky voice and sweating and stumbling over words.

Elise Hu (16:40)

Yes, I get nervous. I was actually taken home from school in kindergarten because we had to skip in front of class. Like, I can't do any across the floor stuff, like in a dance class or demos or anything, because I don't like all feeling like all those eyes are on me. And so I remember I had to actually call the school, had to call my mom and pick me up to take me home from school in kindergarten because we were just skipping. Like, we learned how to skip, and then each person had to. Each student had to skip in front of the whole class. And I basically, like, had a meltdown and I couldn't do it because I didn't want to skip in front of class. So I think, like, inherently I'm a very shy person, but I love people. I'm very extroverted. So there is a difference. You know, I'm just.

Dory Shafrir (17:22)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elise Hu (17:23)

Get very energized being around people. I just don't want to be the center of attention. So, like, that's why I really like hosting. Because with hosting, you can kind of have people meet each other and you can direct and steer the conversation, but you're not the center of the conversation. And I think that's actually what makes me a good party host.

Elise Hu (17:40)

So anyway, so that was a big problem, and my mom recognized it, and so she had me start playing, learn how to play the piano.

Elise Hu (17:51)

In order to get used to recitals. Because I think this piano teacher that she started me with like, had recitals every semester or something. And so just to kind of help. It was almost exposure therapy, like, to help develop a performance gene so that I kind of learned how to have all eyes on me.

Dory Shafrir (18:10)

Oh, that's fascinating.

Elise Hu (18:11)

And I think it helped. I certainly think it helped. But I still get nervous. I still was, like, super, super anxious and nervous before I gave my TED Talk, and. But I'm less nervous when I have to moderate Any panels. And the reason why is because it's not about me. It's just, like, about the people on the panel.

Dory Shafrir (18:28)

Yes.

Elise Hu (18:30)

So this past ted, instead of giving a TED Talk, I was just hosting, I was just emceeing. So I was just introducing everybody else. And that job was easy because I wasn't the focus of it. And so for this questioner, you're officiating a wedding in which the bride and the bride or the bride and the groom are. Are the center of attention. You are not. You are just there to celebrate your friends and share their story and focus on how much you love them. And everyone in that room loves them. So just ride the wave of all of that goodwill and good energy and love, because it's really about them. It's not about you. And I think that if you focus your energy that way, it takes out a lot of the nerves. As for just general public speaking, being prepared always helps. I think it's helpful to, like, really know your material.

Elise Hu (19:21)

And so if you, if you have a speech that you're going to read, make sure that you have that on the podium in front of you and that you're familiar with which parts are on which parts of the page that you don't get too lost.

Elise Hu (19:34)

I think the advice that people give about just, like, picking a few people in the audience to make eye contact with, like, somebody on the left side, somebody towards the back, somebody towards the front, somebody towards the other side, so that you have, like, some focal points so that you know to find them while you're speaking is good advice. And then the other tried and true piece of advice that the TED.

Elise Hu (19:56)

Coach gives is that you should not practice in front of a mirror, because practicing in front of a mirror is the least authentic way you would give a speech. When you give a talk, you would never be, like, looking at yourself giving a talk. And so it's more effective just to practice to all different audiences so you can practice to your friend, practice to your neighbor, practice with your spouse, practice on Zoom with a couple of friends who will just watch you on Zoom. And it's all better than practicing in front of a mirror.

Dory Shafrir (20:30)

That's so interesting.

Elise Hu (20:32)

I didn't learn that advice until later. Dora, what about you? What do you do for stage fright or nerves?

Dory Shafrir (20:37)

You know, I don't. I have to say, I don't really get stage fright. I think that there's something about the, like, it's more anxiety producing for me to, like, go to a party where I don't know anyone. I would much rather like, give a speech. Okay. Because there's sort of like a script when you're giving a speech. Like, it's. It's not. It's a controlled situation. So I think I'm, like, more comfortable in that. Like, I always. I did theater as a kid and in high school, and, like, that felt very natural to me because it was a script and a performance and it wasn't like. I don't know. Does that make sense?

Elise Hu (21:17)

Yeah, it does. We all have kind of different ways that our brain rationalizes what's scary and what's not.

Dory Shafrir (21:22)

Yes.

Elise Hu (21:23)

And so it's interesting just how different we are.

Dory Shafrir (21:26)

Yeah. I have an old co worker who swore by beta blockers. She would get very nervous when she had to do anything. And she was like an entertainment journalist, so she was always, like, moderating panels and like, like doing all that kind of stuff. And she would just take beta blockers. And I just. I feel like the New York Times just wrote about beta blockers and we're like, beta blockers are great, so maybe look into beta blockers.

Elise Hu (21:51)

Great.

Dory Shafrir (21:52)

Yeah. I can't see.

Elise Hu (21:54)

This is not medical advice.

Dory Shafrir (21:55)

No, this is not medical advice. And I. And I have no personal experience with this, but this is just, you know, anecdotal what. What someone else I know did.

Sponsor Voice (22:05)

Okay.

Dory Shafrir (22:06)

We have a voicemail on a totally different topic.

Elise Hu (22:09)

All right. That's what I love about a mini app.

Listener Caller (22:11)

This message is for Elise. She was mentioning being overstimulated at the volleyball games because of all the noise and the light too. And I just wanted to mention the brand Loop earplug. They're these noise release earplugs that you can fit in your ear when it's loud and it dampens the sound. And anyway, you can still hear, but it makes the noise a lot less intense. I have two young kids, those three and those six, and there's just a lot of noise in my house and I often roll them and just go about my normal life, so everything's a bit quieter.

Dory Shafrir (22:45)

All right.

Listener Caller (22:46)

I hope that helps. Sometimes I also just put in noise canceling AirPods and the whole world just kind of goes a lot quieter and it's really nice.

Elise Hu (22:53)

All right.

Dory Shafrir (22:54)

Ok. Great recommendation. I have used loop earplugs at concerts and they're great because they, like. I don't know how it works, but it sort of like, dulls the background noise and you can still hear the person performing, but the, like, loudness of the crowd is not as prominent.

Elise Hu (23:18)

Oh, wow. Okay. That's exactly what I need. So this is much better than just the standard foamy ear plugs that you can get at cvs?

Dory Shafrir (23:27)

Yes, for sure.

Elise Hu (23:29)

Okay. This is fancy. All right, great. Thank you for the recommendation. Anything will help. I probably need that. Plus, like, some very. Like some very dark sunglasses. Yeah, because it's the. It's. All the lighting is so bad too. There's so much is going on there. But I do get a break. We're going into a period of a break, like, almost one month free of volleyball tournaments, so. Hooray.

Dory Shafrir (23:54)

Yay.

Dory Shafrir (23:56)

Okay, moving on. Listener said. Hi, Dorian. Elise. I've been listening from the beginning and love the pod dory. Thank you for sharing your hair growth journey. I've been doing a number of things to treat my hair thinning over the last few years, including topical minoxidil and an oral prescription for spiron. Spironolactone? I don't know if that's how you say it.

Elise Hu (24:19)

I don't know.

Dory Shafrir (24:20)

This year, my dermatologist recommended adding oral minoxidil. Honestly, my only hesitation is that I've spent a lot of time and money on laser hair removal on other areas. Isn't it ironic? And I'm concerned that those areas will regrow hair. Would you mind sharing your experience? As I recall, you've had laser hair removal and are currently using oral minoxidil. Yes. I have not seen real regrowth. Like, there's a couple of stray hairs here and there, but that was happening before I started the oral minoxidil. So I don't think it's attributable.

Listener Caller (24:57)

Okay.

Dory Shafrir (24:57)

But I have seen people.

Dory Shafrir (25:02)

Say that they got a lot of unwanted hair growth, but then it sort of. It has emerged that they were, like, immediately put on a very high dose.

Dory Shafrir (25:14)

So what my dermatologist did was we kind of like, ramped up to an average dose. Like, we started on kind of a. A relatively lower, like, a half dose. And now I'm on the 2.5 milligrams, which I think is sort of like the regular dose. But these people were saying that they were on, like, 5 milligrams a day, which I think is a lot.

Dory Shafrir (25:37)

So you can always start at, like, one and a quarter and go up. I will say they don't make. As far as I know, they don't make one and a quarter tabs. So you have to split the two and a half.

Elise Hu (25:50)

Okay.

Dory Shafrir (25:51)

I had to get, like, a pill cutter because they're these, like, tiny tablets.

Elise Hu (25:57)

Oh, wow.

Dory Shafrir (25:57)

Yeah. But that's that's what I did. I have, I, maybe I have like a little bit more peach fuzz on my face, but I really have not seen any real, like, unwanted hair growth and I'm seeing like actual growth. Like, I, I was looking at my hair yesterday and I was like, oh, what are these hairs that are like a quarter the length of the rest of my hair? And I was like, oh, this is new growth.

Elise Hu (26:20)

Oh, yeah.

Dory Shafrir (26:22)

So it's like really, it's really working. I will say. And you probably know this from doing the topical, but like, it takes a while to work, so you have to really have patience.

Elise Hu (26:32)

Okay.

Dory Shafrir (26:33)

But then once it works, it really works. All right, we are going to take, yeah, we're going to take another short break and we will be right back. We have a big existential question after the break.

Elise Hu (26:44)

Okay. I don't know if we're going to be able to answer it.

Dory Shafrir (26:48)

I know.

Elise Hu (26:48)

All right, that's coming up after the break.

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Dory Shafrir (28:53)

All right, we are back.

Dory Shafrir (28:56)

Here's the existential question. Hi friends, it's my 35th birthday. Is it okay if we get existential?

Sponsor Voice (29:04)

Yes.

Dory Shafrir (29:06)

I've been thinking a lot about happiness, especially as it relates to the decision of whether or to have a kid. I know I'm 35, so probably should have decided that by now. I would love to hear your and your listeners thoughts. What does it mean to you to be happy? And is happiness actually necessary to have a meaningful life? Has your idea of happiness or meaning changed as you've aged? I'm sure this can be solved in a mini app winking emoji.

Elise Hu (29:36)

Well, first I would say that that sound being 35 sounds like the exact time that you should be asking these questions or would be asking these questions because it is around midlife where we have done a lot satisfied a lot of the sort of external markers of life that we are supposed to have satisfied, like finding a job, you know, and participating in the economy in some way. And a lot of folks have found a partner.

Elise Hu (30:06)

And it's around midlife. I'm a real student of Jungian, Jungian psychology and Carl Jung. And it's around midlife where we start asking, we look inward and start asking these questions like who am I? What am I doing? What is my purpose here? What does it mean to be happy? One really good book I read on this was Krista Tippett, who hosts on Be a very existential podcast. I think she wrote a book called On Being as well.

Dory Shafrir (30:38)

Yes, I think she.

Elise Hu (30:40)

Yeah, and I read, read that around midlife when I was contemplating, like is this it? You know, like, what should I be doing with the second half of my life? The other one that I really like is by James Hollis, who's a very famous Jungian psychologist and he wrote Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life. And so that's another one that I can recommend to you because you know, I think about when I hear about these happiness questions. I think about Don Draper in Mad Men and this famous scene towards the end of Mad Men where he's like, you know what happiness is? It's the moment before you need more happiness because in our era that we live and in this sort of capitalistic time that we live in, like, we've been sold happiness as something that we can sort of buy or get, you know, by means of some sort of external accomplishment. Where to me, I want my life to feel whole. I want myself to feel like psychologically whole and have purpose and meaning. And that's like such a deeper thing to seek. And it doesn't always mean being happy all the time, right. Because psychological wholeness also means like really wrestling with grief and pain and the things that make us human. So I want to be very human ultimately. And I guess that's how I think of it. Because the more human I am, the more compassion I can bring to all my relationships. And I think ultimately, like, we are people who are in community with one another. As human beings, we seek belonging. And I think that is a way to achieve a kind of meaning. The question about, the question about having children, the reason why I never wrestled with this too much, the reason why I had children or I chose to be a mom was because I didn't want to. I felt like I would regret it if I didn't. I felt like the regret of not having children would be greater than the regret of having children. I'm not saying that that's a right decision for everyone, but ultimately, like, I remember reading something in that Cheryl Strayed wrote, you know, she has that book, Tiny Beautiful Things was just a collection of her Dear Sugar essays. And she wrote one that was sort of inspired by a question like this. And so I will link it if we can find the Dear Sugar, the original Dear Sugar. And I think that it speaks to some of that. That's on a really specific question. So I guess, Dori, I would put the question to you, this two part question to you backwards, which is A, the kids question and then B, the how you think about happiness question.

Dory Shafrir (33:28)

I mean, I don't think our, like our listener wasn't really, like, she wasn't really asking like, whether or not to have kids, right. Like, she was just kind of thinking about what it means to be happy.

Dory Shafrir (33:42)

And do you need happiness to have a meaningful life?

Dory Shafrir (33:47)

But yeah, I mean, I guess those are connected.

Dory Shafrir (33:52)

I think that having a meaningful life brings happiness.

Dory Shafrir (33:59)

It's a little like chicken and egg, like which comes first, the meaningful life or the happiness? And maybe it's a thing where both conditions are necessary. For me, I think I don't know necessarily what the difference between being content and being happy is. That's something that I've like often tried to sort of parse.

Dory Shafrir (34:21)

And being satisfied because I feel like I'm someone who is often not satisfied with myself or what I have and does that make me less happy? Maybe, you know.

Dory Shafrir (34:38)

But I think happiness is also built on finding meaning in your life, you know, through friendships, through family, through work, through hobbies.

Dory Shafrir (34:51)

And so I think all of those sort of like, combine to create happiness. But I think. I think what can be sort of a trap is like seeking happiness for happiness's sake. Almost like if you're only looking to be happy, that's going to be really challenging. I think it's sort of like you have to cultivate these other areas of your life and happiness will follow, if that makes sense.

Elise Hu (35:15)

Yeah, yeah.

Dory Shafrir (35:16)

I don't know. I'm not a philosopher.

Elise Hu (35:19)

Oh, and speaking of that, actually, so we're so glad that you wrote in with this question because we are actually going to feature a philosopher on the show. Yes, I think in the new year, in the beginning of the new year, she wrote, well, just teased. She wrote a book or co wrote a book called the Good Life. And it examines what the philosophers had to say, how they addressed this question of what does it mean to live a good life? And so we'll be able to spend an entire episode with a philosopher on this very question. We're so glad you asked and maybe we will put this question straight to her because I'd love to hear what she has to say. Thank you for the question.

Dory Shafrir (35:56)

Yes, thank you so much for the question. I'd love to hear what listeners have to say about this as well.

Elise Hu (36:00)

Yeah, call, write.

Dory Shafrir (36:03)

All right, everyone, thank you so much and we will talk to you soon.

Elise Hu (36:07)

Okay, talk to you next time.

Dory Shafrir (36:08)

Bye.

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Dory Shafrir (36:35)

Santa.

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Santa, did you get my letter?

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I'm not.

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Right, Santa, you know my elf, Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list.

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