Replay - Ep 314: What a Tangled Sociocultural Web We Weave with Tressie McMillan Cottom

Summary

Forever35 Episode 314: Navigating the Complex Sociocultural Landscape with Tressie McMillan Cottom

Release Date: December 30, 2024

In this compelling episode of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu revisit a standout conversation from their summer playlist featuring renowned sociologist and cultural critic Tressie McMillan Cottom. With her incisive perspectives and eloquent discourse, Cottom delves deep into the tangled sociocultural frameworks that shape our lives, offering listeners both critical insights and practical reflections on self-care, beauty standards, and societal pressures.

Introduction to Tressie McMillan Cottom

The episode opens with Doree and Elise expressing their admiration for Tressie McMillan Cottom, highlighting her accolades as a New York Times columnist, MacArthur Fellow, and author of the critically acclaimed essay collection, Thick. They emphasize Cottom's ability to "rearrange your brain in the span of a carefully turned phrase," setting the stage for an enlightening discussion.

Self-Care Beyond the Commodified

Timestamp [07:38]

The conversation begins with a thought-provoking take on self-care. Cottom challenges the traditional notions of self-care practices, distinguishing between consumerist approaches and genuine self-maintenance. She states:

"Real self care is creating spaces where you can say no when you want to, when you have time to reflect on your priorities and your boundaries, and when you get to do the things that you care about. And a bath bomb doesn't really do that."
— Tressie McMillan Cottom [07:38]

Cottom emphasizes the importance of boundary-making as a reflection of self-acceptance and self-respect, noting the significant positive impact it has had on her personal life over the years.

Coping in Turbulent Times

Timestamp [15:31]

Addressing the current sociopolitical climate, Cottom shares her strategies for coping amidst chaos:

"I listen, I've got a sort of strict time limit on how much I can consume every day... More high-quality information, we have to do it for ourselves."
— Tressie McMillan Cottom [15:31]

She advocates for limiting media consumption to prevent overwhelm and emphasizes the necessity of engaging with empowering communities and actions to mitigate feelings of helplessness.

Beauty Standards and the Labor of Femininity

Timestamp [25:07]

A significant portion of the episode explores the intersection of race, gender, and beauty standards. Cottom introduces her "bad wig theory," dissecting societal expectations placed on Black women regarding appearance:

"Men and women... value women who perform beauty rituals, even if the beauty ritual doesn't make them more attractive. They value the effort, the labor of performing."
— Tressie McMillan Cottom [28:20]

She critiques how beauty standards are not merely about aesthetics but are deeply entrenched in power dynamics and the commodification of women's labor, particularly emphasizing the additional burdens faced by Black women in striving for societal acceptance.

The Ozempic Phenomenon and Societal Implications

Timestamp [33:31]

Cottom offers a nuanced analysis of the rising popularity of Ozempic and similar weight-loss drugs, addressing both their personal benefits and broader societal consequences:

"Ozempic will only fix that [fat acceptance] if not just if the fat people who want to take it can access it and afford it... We still have anti-fat bias."
— Tressie McMillan Cottom [36:50]

She underscores the limitations of pharmaceutical solutions in addressing deep-seated biases and structural inequalities, advocating for a shift away from stigmatizing obesity towards more inclusive and supportive societal attitudes.

Oprah Winfrey: A Complex Legacy

Timestamp [38:53]

The discussion shifts to Oprah Winfrey's influence on diet culture and body image:

"Oprah has just been struggling with being, frankly, an overweight Black woman in a racist, sexist society... You can't just force people to call you pretty."
— Tressie McMillan Cottom [41:11]

Cottom explores the generational and cultural differences in perceiving Oprah's impact, highlighting the complexities of her role in perpetuating and challenging beauty standards within the context of race and gender.

Bama Rush: A Reflection on Contemporary Sorority Culture

Timestamp [45:28]

In addressing the resurgence of sorority reality shows like Bama Rush, Cottom critiques the reinforcement of traditional power structures and gender roles:

"Bama Rush is like... it's about the look of a particular kind of GOP wife... These are willing participants, which says that whatever it is they are doing to themselves... the rewards, you perceive them as being pretty great."
— Tressie McMillan Cottom [47:38]

She argues that such phenomena are modern embodiments of historical attempts to control and define women's roles in society, using sororities as platforms for maintaining elite status and reinforcing patriarchal norms.

Personal Reflections and Hope

Timestamp [53:36]

Towards the end, Cottom shares sources of hope and joy that sustain her amidst societal challenges:

"Spending as much time sort of in nature and outside as I possibly can... Talking to people who are actually doing something."
— Tressie McMillan Cottom [53:36]

She highlights the importance of connecting with resilient individuals like "Ms. Donna," whose activism and unwavering commitment to community uplift her spirits and provide a sense of purpose.

Practical Takeaways: Intentions and Self-Care Practices

In the latter part of the episode, Doree and Elise share their personal self-care intentions for the upcoming week, inspired by Cottom's insights. They discuss strategies like one-bag packing and daily journaling, offering listeners actionable tips to enhance their own self-care routines.

Notable Quote:

"If you can capture something... show in a really concrete way how all of those things are interrelated."
— Tressie McMillan Cottom [49:55]

Conclusion

Episode 314 of Forever35 serves as a profound exploration of the intricate web of sociocultural factors influencing self-care, beauty standards, and societal expectations. Through her articulate and critical lens, Tressie McMillan Cottom encourages listeners to rethink conventional practices, advocate for structural changes, and find personal strength amidst the complexities of modern life. This episode not only provides deep theoretical insights but also empowers individuals to cultivate meaningful self-care practices and challenge oppressive norms.

---

Quotes Archive:

• Tressie McMillan Cottom [07:38]: “Real self care is creating spaces where you can say no when you want to... And a bath bomb doesn't really do that.”
• Tressie McMillan Cottom [15:31]: “I listen, I've got a sort of strict time limit on how much I can consume every day... More high-quality information, we have to do it for ourselves.”
• Tressie McMillan Cottom [28:20]: “Men and women... value women who perform beauty rituals, even if the beauty ritual doesn't make them more attractive. They value the effort, the labor of performing.”
• Tressie McMillan Cottom [36:50]: “Ozempic will only fix that [fat acceptance] if not just if the fat people who want to take it can access it and afford it... We still have anti-fat bias.”
• Tressie McMillan Cottom [41:11]: “Oprah has just been struggling with being, frankly, an overweight Black woman in a racist, sexist society... You can't just force people to call you pretty.”
• Tressie McMillan Cottom [47:38]: “Bama Rush is like... it's about the look of a particular kind of GOP wife... These are willing participants, which says that whatever it is they are doing to themselves... the rewards, you perceive them as being pretty great.”
• Tressie McMillan Cottom [49:55]: “If you can capture something... show in a really concrete way how all of those things are interrelated.”

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding the deeper societal pressures that shape our daily lives and self-perceptions. Tressie McMillan Cottom's insights provide a valuable framework for navigating and challenging the pervasive forces that influence our well-being and societal roles.

Transcript

[Narrator]

They say opposites attract. That's why the Sleep number Smart bed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm but they want soft. Sleep number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm. Sleep number does that too. Why choose a sleep number smart bed so you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now it's the lowest price of the season on the top selling i8 smart bed your best savings plus special financing limited time shop a sleep number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era or yoga era, dive into peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kids game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with peloton. Find your push. Find your power peloton visit 1peloton.com.

[Dory Shafrier]

Hey there. I'm Dorrie.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise and we are on holiday break.

[Dory Shafrier]

Hope you are enjoying one yourself. And we know a lot of year in reviews are coming at us this time of year, but instead of doing a full wrap up on 2024, we picked an episode from the summer that we are replaying today in case you missed it. And it' our conversation with the sociologist and writer Tressie McMillan Cottam. So enjoy the episode and enjoy the holidays. Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

And today we have I mean I I always hesitate to be like this was one of our best conversations because I genuinely enjoy all of our conversations with our guests and think that they all bring so much. But this conversation in particular to me goes into the Forever 35 hall of Fame.

[Elise Hu]

It's just one mic drop after another after another. So much insight. I needed to have this conversation when we did because we have been going through such a turbulent summer. It's like I aged 10 years in one week.

[Dory Shafrier]

Totally.

[Elise Hu]

And we got to speak to our guest today.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh she was just so wonderful. So we are just going to kind of get right into it. I'm going to introduce her and then we will get into our conversation because it was it was so great. I don't, I don't want to like, waste another second. So today we are talking to Tressie McMillan Cottam. She is a trenchant cultural critic, celebrated sociologist, and award winning writer. She is known for rearranging your brain in the span of a carefully turned phrase. And I would say she did keep track of how many times your brain gets rearranged in the course of this conversation. I'm just gonna say she does. Her breath is truly phenomenal. It moves from the racial hierarchy of beauty standards and the class codes of dressing for work to the predation of for profit colleges and the stain of racial capitalism on our plural democracy, all while reimagining the essay form for the 21st century. As she goes. Tressy is a professor with the center for Information Technology and public life at UNC Chapel Hill, a New York Times columnist, and a 2020 MacArthur Fellow. Also, her excellent 2019 collection of essays, Thick, was a National Book Award finalist.

[Elise Hu]

I mean, so good.

[Dory Shafrier]

Her, her fans call her essays tresses. She, she's just, she's just so great. She's a great TikTok. Follow. She's, she's just so wonderful.

[Elise Hu]

I just feel honored that we got to have an hour to just ask her whatever we wanted.

[Dory Shafrier]

Same same.

[Elise Hu]

Because at one point I was just like, tressy, what do we do?

[Dory Shafrier]

I know, it was really funny. Also, 35 questionnaire for those of you on Patreon is also very enjoyable though. That'll come out tomorrow. So head on over to [e-mail] forever35 to check that out because it's, it's really, it's really delightful. Before we get to Trusty, just a reminder, Our website is forever35podcast.com we have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35podcast again. Our Patreon is at patreon.comforever35. We have our newsletter atforever35podcast.com newsletter and we love to hear from you. We love to hear your thoughts about episodes, guest suggestions, questions, comments, concerns. You can call or text us at 781-591-0390. You can email us at forever35podcastmail.com I.

[Elise Hu]

Particularly love Product Rex because y'all have such great ones and that's not just for serums and essences and moisturizers or anything. It's also like Trader Joe's products and Costco products. Totally send in your recommendations if there are things that you love. And just a reminder for our New listeners. We, our schedule is to drop episodes like this one. Longer conversation interviews on Mondays and then on Wednesdays we have mini apps where we hear from you and we play your voicemails and share your texts and share your emails and share your recs and if you have questions, we answer those in the mini apps on Wednesdays. And. And then we're also dropping fresh shows on Fridays. Our casual chats where Dori and I just chop it up. We just chop it up on Fridays and that's just for our Patreon subscribers. And of course, if you're on Patreon, you could also get ad free episodes too. So Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Mondays interviews, Wednesdays, mini apps, Fridays, casual chats.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. And our monthly pop culture recommendation apps as well.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that's on the Patreon also.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. All right, so here is Tressie.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Foreign.

[Dory Shafrier]

People ask like who's your dream guest? And I gotta say, Tressie, you have been on that list for quite some time. So I am so thrilled to have you on Forever 35. Welcome to the show.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Thank you for having me. You know what, I don't even care how true that is. It is so lovely to hear. Not really.

[Dory Shafrier]

I appreciate.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Seriously, I actually do think that about you, by the way. From what I know of you from socials for years, which is how we know each other. I've followed you ready for years. No, you don't think you.

[Dory Shafrier]

No, I just wouldn't say anything.

[Elise Hu]

That's what she does.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah. Yeah, that does seem like you.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. So. No, but in, in all honesty, I've just been such a fan of yours for so long and on multiple platforms and it's just so great to get to talk to you. So thank you for coming on.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

It's a pleasure. I really am happy to be here.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, good. Well, as I think you know, we like to start our guest interviews by asking about a self care practice. Even though we, we know you have a little beef with, with the term self care.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I was about to say we're gonna have to be elastic with it. Exactly.

[Dory Shafrier]

Let's talk about that.

[Elise Hu]

Right, exactly. So how you're taking care of yourself, however you define it.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yep. Listen, a lot of boundary making and learning to, you know, embrace the boundaries that I make is setting them is one thing. Embracing them as like right and proper and that I deserve them is something else entirely. And it's an ongoing project. But I really do think if I compare like how I make boundaries today with even just a year ago, much less five years ago, I think I'm a different person. I still, you know, fall into automatic guesses. I can still be a little passive aggressive about things. I don't want to do things like that, but I think it's a. It's. It's a lot less. And the. The effect that it's had on the quality of my life is really demonstrable. Like, I can tell. And you know what? I'm taking a lot of vitamin D. Me, too.

[Dory Shafrier]

Doctor's orders, though.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah, yeah, same. And I'm even taking, like, a little. We are doing, like, this high do. And I am telling almost every woman in my life, especially every woman of color, black woman, especially, because we are chronically have vitamin D deficiencies. The impact it has had on me is wild.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So vitamin D. That's great.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. In Korea, all the babies and the toddlers have to get it because there's just not enough sunshine. You're not getting enough naturally during. During the winter months. But I remember when I moved to Southern California, doctors were like, oh, you're getting enough vitamin D anyway just from being outside. Are you taking a walk outdoors? Are you jogging? And then it was somehow. All right. But you're in North Carolina, right? Isn't it?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah, I am in North Carolina. And yes, we do have sun, but one, it can be too hard to be in our sun because we also have humidity, right? What is that? Even if you. I know you Southern California people. I'll try to describe it to you later. So, you know, you can be outside, but maybe not be out as long as you would like. And even with that, though, just the way we kind of live. I mean, unless you. And I'm very fortunate. I live in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, which is a super green place and super walkable, which is why I choose to live here. So in my daily life, like, I walk to the store and that's, you know, a little more sunshine. But, you know, in regular life, and I think how most people live, even if it's sunny outside, what, you're in an office building, right? You are going from parking lot to parking lot. So, like, even I think when the weather is conducive to getting enough sunshine, I think being more deliberate about it is probably a good thing. And I don't know the stats off my head. I just remember them being, like, overwhelming and ridiculous. I know it's like over 50% of black people in America anyway have a vitamin D deficiency. And I suspect that's not just about sunshine. Yeah, we probably should be giving all of us a vitamin D supplement.

[Elise Hu]

So we're glad you're getting your vitamin D. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, you said in the last five years you've gotten so much better at holding your boundaries. Can I ask how you did that? And like, was there a moment where you felt there was a shift or is just sort of a gradual thing?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

It is gradual. I don't know that it's hard before and after. But one of the things, boundary making, what I've come to understand is that boundary making really is just a reflection of how you think about yourself. And not necessarily self esteem, although that's part of it. But it's like accepting who you are in the world, accepting like your place in the world, accepting your responsibilities. And, you know, and over time, mostly I've just been exhausted by not having the boundaries. And it really became critical that I figure something out, because if my. If your mind doesn't tell you that you need the boundaries, your body really will. And it was clear that I was chronically tired. It was clear that. And the place I can get really sensitive about it because I don't care about bodies. I don't, you know, I don't care about my body, but my creative energies, I care about a lot. And so when it became difficult to write or, you know, more challenging to write, and I'm just not a good, happy person when that happens to me. And it was clear that I was spending more time doing things that I didn't have to do. Now that's the big one. Realizing the difference between what I wanted to do and what I had to do was about me accepting that, oh, my life has changed, and just checking in with myself every once in a while and going, oh, no, I don't have to do that anymore. That was a responsibility for a different time in my life or my career or people don't need this for me anymore. They have aged out, they've matured, they have gone on. I have that problem often with, like, my students kind of hanging on a little too long. So, like, just reflecting and making the time to go, okay, where are we in the world right now? And I think a lot right now about my time in like. Like a pie. Over time, like over six months or so, I'm like, okay, over the last six months, how much of what I have done is something that gave something back to me versus the things that I did out of obligation that I really didn't get much from? And, like, I'm constantly recalibrating that at About I do it, try to do it like every six months or so.

[Elise Hu]

This relates to our next question because obviously we like to say that this show is about how we take care of ourselves. And so we'd love to hear you talk about the difference between consumerist, commodified self care in the form of baths or essential oils or God bless the exercise club.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And. And the kind of self care that really makes a difference in your life or in women's lives.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

And you know, and I, here's the thing. I'm a Libra and was raised an only child. And I say all of that to say this. I love stuff.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I love pretty things, sparkly things, things that fizz in a bat. So like all of that, just fine. I want to put that out there to say I'm not a hater of the lush bath bomb or whatever it is just what my challenge here. You know, I interviewed Pooja Lakshmi once for New York Times, just as one wonderful book about real self care and who in reading her book actually crystallized some things that I often thought but you know, and it picked up from other places. But she really gave me a language for it, which is there's a difference between consuming the things that pacify us when we aren't taking care of ourselves. Right. So Calgon, take me away at the end of the day is really just about the fact that you needed to be home earlier from that job. Right. It is compensating. Maybe it's pacifying, but is it really giving you more capacity to feel good? Right. So real self care is. Doesn't require buying anything, even though, you know, buying it makes you feel good. That's fine. But I think we can get caught up in the panic of feeling drained. And then you'll take anything, right? I'll take any planner. I'll take anything you got. I'll take anything because I'm desperate. Right. But the next day your life is still the same. And so real self care is creating spaces where you can say no when you want to, when you have time to reflect on your priorities and your boundaries and when you get to do the things that you care about. And a bath bomb doesn't really do that.

[Elise Hu]

We are speaking to you at a particularly turbulent time.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Tell me about it.

[Elise Hu]

Hoo boy. Following a recent assassination attempt and as America faces a very likely possibility that President Trump returns for another term and following some really monumental Supreme Court decisions. So Tressy, as one of America's foremost, you know, sociologists and cultural critics, we just Want to know how do we cope and how are you coping?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Okay, so I'm going to start with the second one because I feel like I need to figure that one out before I can tell other people how they should be coping. I listen, I've got a sort of strict time limit on how much I can consume every day. I mean, you know, we go from consuming mass death and political disenfranchisement to just straight up authoritarianism in like a matter of days. And I truly believe that the human mind we have evolved into where we are now, maybe will be something else in the future. We just are not built to consume all of this. I don't think you are prepared or capable of processing all of the horrible things that human beings do to each other all across a great big wide world. But technology makes it so that we can see that, right? I can see Darfur, I can see Palestine, and I can also see Seattle, and I can also see climate change in the Antarctic, right? All of that is like in my face constantly. And I don't think this is a real good solution because probably what we need is we need better filtering of higher quality filtering of information to help us decide what we need to know versus what people want to put before us to make us scared or to manipulate us, right? So I think a lot of what, what we do and call now information, right? Making an informed public is really about manipulating how people feel politically. Real information, I think would tell you what stuff means. Like you can see a headline about you climate change, but it doesn't tell you what you're supposed to do, it doesn't tell you what it means. And I think we just feel chronically helpless and that's like politically convenient, but really bad for human beings. And so until we figure out a way to do, I think more high quality information, we have to do it for ourselves. We got to do it at the individual level, which is always just a sign of failure anyway in my mind, I'm a sociologist, right? I want big solutions, but you know, time limits on what you consume, being realistic about how things affect you. So for example, I cannot do dead children. It's my thing, right? And so no matter how politically committed I am to any cause, if it involves dead children, the deal I have with myself is I will not consume that. It is not worth what it will do to me for days on end. It isn't worth triggering myself. And to say that doesn't make me any less politically committed. It's just I'm not sure what Benefit the world gets from me being in a corner crying. Every organizer and sort of spiritual person that I respect pretty much says the same thing. They say, choose the thing you can do in the world and do that. That's the thing. You actually can't solve climate change and homelessness and poverty. You have to choose your thing, do the best you can at it with other people and hope and pray other people are doing that on the other subjects. Right. But I think we don't kind of get to that unless we, like, put time limits on what we consume. We'd be really honest about what we can and cannot do. And then I also try to make spaces when I'm feeling really bad. So yesterday actually was one of those. I called a friend who is an organizer in Kentucky and. Because talking to somebody who is doing something important makes me feel better. Yeah, right. One of the best tonics for feeling helpless is watching people do something together. Some of the most hopeful spaces I've been in are places that I suspect the general public thinks of as depressing. I did an interview once with abortion doulas, for example. You would think they are super serious, right? And speak like this because they do this really hard thing during really hard times.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I was talking to them right after Dobbs. Instead, I walked into their space and the music was bumping. They were eating tacos and laughing with a woman, you know, laughing with women on the phone who are calling them to get help, to travel across state lines to get an abortion. They are having a ball. They're having a great time. I see the same thing with, like, housing advocates. I go in and there are these people who say to me, yeah, my landlord trying to evict me again. It's like their third time, right? And they are all sitting around telling this story and having a good time. They actually do not feel helpless and depressed. And it is because they feel like they have agency. And so when I am feeling my most fragile and like, oh, my God, what are we supposed to do? I try to talk to people who I think are actually doing something. And then, of course, the better thing, of course, is go do something yourself.

[Elise Hu]

Right?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

[Dory Shafrier]

Let's make a resolution to save more money in 2025. I gotta say, every year we make resolutions. Some we stick to, some we don't. I've tried to keep my desk clean and, yeah, never quite make it through the year, never quite make it through the month. But when you can make things automatic that's how you make resolutions stick. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids and your retirement. With just five minutes, you can set up a healthy money habit that takes others years to learn. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now. You can start with $5 or even just your spare change. You don't need to feel like financial wellness is impossible. Acorns gives you small, simple steps to get you and your money on track. Head to acorns.comforever35 or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier one compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View important [e-mail] Forever35 this episode is.

[Elise Hu]

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[Narrator]

They say opposites attract. That's why the Sleep number Smart bed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm, but they want soft Sleep number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm. Sleep number does that too. Why choose a sleep number Smart bed so you can choose your ideal comfort on either side and now it's the lowest price of the season on the top selling i8 smart bed your best savings plus special financing limited time shop a sleep number store near you See store or sleepnumber.com for details whether you're in your running era, Pilates era or yoga era, dive into peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kids game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with peloton. Find your push, find your power peloton visit1peloton.com first of all, I love following you on TikTok.

[Elise Hu]

Me too.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's like truly such a delight. And one of my favorite TikToks of yours is your bad wig theory. Tick tock.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Oh yeah. Okay. This thing, I hope I can never anticipate what will hit with people. I get asked about this so much.

[Elise Hu]

This one hit. Can you sum up what bag what your bad wig theory is, Man, I know it takes like six minutes in.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

The video because you need the. Because it's a response to something, right? One of these social media things where you like need the lore, right? You need all this like backstory. So I'm going to. So quickly, the backstory is there is a joke with a little bit of like, I think critical truth to it, which is that there's this idea in the black community among black women that whenever your hair looks the worst, white men find you the most attractive, right? And so this starts as a joke where like black women were like, I know it's time to get my braids done because a white man told me today he liked my hair, right? So this starts and then somebody starts to overlay that with this really, I don't know, odd form of content as a genre of content on TikTok of like interracial couples where they literally tag it. That's their whole brand. Yeah, they are interracial couple. Someone, by the way, needs to write that thing because that is so odd to me. 2024, your whole brand can be. You are in an interracial couple. I just find that very strange. Anyway, but it's very popular on the social media and people started pointing out that in a lot of these interracial couples, the joke was among black women married to non black men. They would go, see, she has on a bad wig. That's how she got her white Man. All right, so this is the. Right. So this is the joke. You kind of need to know this. And so what was happening is where people were, like, you know, jokingly putting on bad wigs and saying, well, this is the night I'm going out. Right. I'm choosing who I want to talk to me, because I'm gonna put on my bad wig. And a bad wig would be a hard wig, one that doesn't flow. That's where it comes. Hard wig. If you wear a hard wig, you have a better chance at a soft life, was the joke, right? That's right. A soft life of greater privilege and ease. Right? And so I see this, and again, I'm fascinated by all of these little things. I'm like, I think interracial conflic content is weird. I love the thing about the hair critique because I think we do a lot of our popular discourse about race through beauty, right? If you're not comfortable talking about race, you tend to couch it in things about, like, beauty and dating and relationships. And so I found that really interesting. And I promised, off the top of my head, I just was, you know, I was riffing on this literature that I just know because I, you know, have taught feminist sociology before about why and how people, especially men, value women who perform a beauty ritual. Right, Right. And there's this really interesting study because you would think, oh, of course they like it because you look better. Right? They like that you wear makeup because you're prettier. They like that you wear high heels because you look sexier.

[Elise Hu]

You would think.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

You'd think, all right, but then that wouldn't. Then hard wig wouldn't make sense. Right? But this great Stored. This great study, which has shown and has been validated in a couple different ways since then, and there's some people who are still working on it, but the sociologists found, using, like, national survey data, I just want think that's important to say, like, they did this whole, you know, it was. It was quantitative for the people who care about such things, and they found that, no, what it is is that men and women, to a slightly lesser extent, value women who perform beauty rituals, even if the beauty ritual doesn't make them more attractive. So even when your makeup is busted, even when the hair is wrong, what they were really giving women credit for was effort, the labor, the labor of performing. And in fact, the more they could see that you had made the effort, the better. Which flies in the face of, like, doing a natural makeup look. Right? No, men want to see the Red lip and the eyeliner and the streaks and they look like.

[Dory Shafrier]

I just saw this recently with. There was a lot of discourse around the Love island contestants on.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I have read this social show, but I've read about this.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. And, and I think a lot of people, like, the discourse was sort of like, they look so old, but they're only 24 or whatever.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And it was kind of what you were saying, like they clearly had had so much either like plastic surgery or fillers or Botox that their faces looked so overdone that I think to a lot of people it was like, oh, they look old, quote unquote. But it sounds to me like they were performing.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

This, you know, when you, what you're.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Saying, when you do that is I am signing up to be a particular kind of wife.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Let's just be honest. I'm signing up to be a full time Pilates wife. And the deal, when you make one of those marriage deals, the implicit contract, sometimes explicit, but the implicit contract is you will stay thin, you will manage your diet and your appearance, and you will remain a consumable asset to your male partner.

[Elise Hu]

And so you are working, your work is just on your body. It's aesthetic labor, it's display labor.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yes, yes. You are working your butt off, in fact, quite literally sometimes in Pilates class. Right.

[Elise Hu]

It's about regimenting your body. And it's really about a lot of intervention, especially as you get older, because you have to stay in this general age group of appearing as if you're somewhere between the ages of 18 and.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

35 and that you are concerned about aging. So you also need to be in this posture of fear, which as we know again from lots of men, like women who are afraid, they like to scare us. So a woman who is anxious about aging even and showing that she's going to try to fend that off, all of that is now. I do think that what happens, like in the case of the Love island contestants, which is, you know, just happens, I think a lot of the reality shows. There was this wonderful piece I read once that showed reality contestants from like 15 years ago compared to the reality contestant, how much normal they looked compared to now. So I think it's just like a phenomenon across reality tv. But I'm not sure that men are actually sexually attracted to it. They are just attracted to the power dynamic.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

On display.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, and I know the, the particular TikTok that you stitched when you talked about bad wig theory. I mean, it was a seemingly very wealthy, older White man. I don't know how old the woman was, but she seemed younger. And it seemed like there was just totally that dynamic at play.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

This, you know, if we. For my friends who do. Friends who write like, you know, kink literature, and they're like, all these people are doing is performing like kink 24 hours. They have this power, dynamic relationship. But it is. Yes. So the TikTok was, you know, she chose a life of ease with an older, wealthier partner, which is, you know, the goal for many people. And part of being perceived by him was that she had to show the labor she was willing to do.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

And when you are a black woman, that labor has to be even more obvious because there are already questions about your femininity. Right. And so being ultra feminine means an ultra performance. That's why the hair would need to be exaggerated. You need to exaggerate certain features and performances so that someone who isn't used to looking at or observing or consuming black beauty or how black women look will notice it. And so if your hair is, like, really nice but understated, I'm already not used to seeing that because I don't look at a lot of black women, and I doubt that black women can be super feminine. And I'm probably conditioned to want the exact opposite. So you gotta work really hard.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Thus the hard wig. The hard wig, like, personifies, really captures all of that labor that a black woman has to do to be legible to the type of white male partners that some people think of as like, pasta and lobster. Being better get my pasta and lobster.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, let's stay on this topic of the work that we have to do on our bodies and. Or that women are expected to do on our bodies, because now it's obviously not just limited to any particular sex. Everybody is having to regiment our bodies because we're living in these digital worlds and constantly on front of screens, and we are in yet another summer of ozempic for Americans. So I'm just curious, now that there has been so much discourse about it, where have you landed on the ozempification of those who can afford it?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I love that ozempification. You may see that again. Okay, so those simplification of the culture, which is. I mean, we're undergoing in some ways, something that is, like, historically continuous. Right. We have been doing this thing with diets that are going to fix bodies, especially women's bodies. We've been doing this now for, like, almost 100 years. So on one side, like Ozempic and GLP1s or whatever are just part of that. Except if you do like I've done and you talk to medical professionals and you talk to researchers, they are quite serious about the science of these being different than anything we've seen before before, which were actually, while they may have been popular, were kind of blunt tools. So you think about something like gastric bypass, that's just blunt. It was like a mechanical intervention. Right. They're just going in there and changing your engine. Right. And like, yeah, it worked, but it's super. It's not like changing the science of how your body works. What they are excited about here is that no, ozempic and GLP1s seem to scientifically actually change how your body performs physiologically. And that's like apparently great and good. And I believe them. Right. I'm not equipped to disagree. But that is not the same thing as saying that it is a magic pill for obesity. Right. And so what has happened in our cultures, we have conflated those two because we want to make money off of it. Right? Right. You got, you got to figure out how to sell it to people. And nothing sells in this country quite as well as a promise that you can be thinner. Because to be thinner is to be richer, is to be better, is to be perceived as nicer. We tie up so much status into being thinner that just by promising it, Ozempic would have already been a big seller. But then it seems to actually work and that's, you know, even worse. Yeah. So where I land on this is it's hard to talk to as many people as I have who are so happy about taking GLP1s. It's changed their lives. There are women who've been able to get pregnant. There are women who are beating PCOs like they're just so many happy consumers of it. So if I'm going to believe women, I got to believe them when they say they're happy. Right?

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

But then I also got to think about how you can be happy with something that's structurally pretty bad or that's structurally unfair. We should say. And I do think that with Ozempic and the way it's been promoted, advertised and especially priced, right. The healthcare financing of it access means that we have a system that is poised, I think, just create more inequality instead of solving a site of real inequality in our culture, which is we still have a fat by anti fat bias. And that will. Ozempic will only fix that if not just if the fat people who want to take it can Access it and afford it. But if we stop associating fatness with morality, like, both of those things have to happen for Ozempic to be, like, a radical game changer. Right. You don't end obesity by getting rid of fat people. I think you end obesity by getting rid of stigma about obesity.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

It's similar to Botox. Right. It could individually relieve anxieties for those who are anxious about aging or aging and want to remove creases or frown lines and things like that. But is it good for the community?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah. It doesn't change that ageism is real. It doesn't change that, you know, your income potential goes down as you get older. It doesn't change that you become more vulnerable and weaker in our society. Something we don't like as you age. Yeah. It can make you feel better, and there's some value to that. But is it valuable enough for us to invest a ton of public money, a ton of research, a ton of advertising, a ton of people's lives and health in it? I think something. I think a drug has to be far more radical socially for us to give it as much credit as we're giving Ozempic right now.

[Elise Hu]

And you wrote about Oprah and Ozempic and how complicated this was in particular, because if Oprah can't fall in love with her body at any size or shape, then what hope is there for the rest of us? And listen, and I want to know, like, what. Right. What should we even have the right to expect of Oprah or expect from Oprah too?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah. I feel like I've become the Oprah defender in the culture. And I don't know how that happened, but it. I did. So I think a couple of things were happening. I was a little surprised as a Gen X when I'm late. Gen X. Right. And I was a little taken aback by how much anger and resentment maybe millennials and maybe a little bit of Gen Z, but especially millennial women had for Oprah Winfrey. Like, it was just stunning to me. So Oprah does this special to, you know, quote, unquote, confess. Even that we say confess. Right. I think that's so weird. But to publicly announce that, yes, she had lost weight using. She doesn't use the brand name. She just says she took one of the GLP1s. And, you know, there was a ton of mostly critical response, and so much of it coming from a place of, like, personal animus. Like, people were personally offended. And I thought that was really strange because I didn't see Oprah that way. Yes. I know Oprah spent years talking about her body, and I know she promoted Dr. Oz and the running guy and the other guy. Like, I get it, right. She had platformed all of these people. But I didn't think of her as, like, responsible for diet culture. But millennial women absolutely do. And so I started thinking about why that was, why there could be such a difference in how I remembered it and how they had consumed her and whether or not it was fair to think of Oprah as being the person responsible for diet. Like, really, Like, I mean, yeah, she was a very big deal. I mean, bigger than. I think even people born after her time can understand because media has changed. They don't know what it means to be Oprah Winfrey in, like, 1999. That's just. It's. Nothing is as big as that right now.

[Dory Shafrier]

I don't know about you get a car.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

They don't know. And you know what? They also don't know. I show it sometimes in one of my classes. They don't know why we think Tom Cruise is crazy. They don't know that. Yeah, they don't know.

[Elise Hu]

They don't know that clip.

[Dory Shafrier]

They don't know about the couch, that.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

When he jumps on the couch. They have no idea.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Anyway. I know, I know, I know. It's fascinating. I was like, oh, wow. Then you don't know why we think Tom Cruise is dead behind the eyes. It's because he had this moment on Oprah Winfrey.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

And so, yeah, so Oprah is, you know, she's the pinnacle of achievement for a lot of women, especially of a certain age, I think, especially for black women. And part of the way she became that was that, yes, she talked about bodies. But here's the difference. I think Oprah Winfrey was mostly talking about her body. And because of her celebrity, her mega celebrity at that, millions of women projected their feelings of their body onto Oprah Winfrey. Right. But Oprah has just been struggling with being, frankly, an overweight black woman in a racist, sexist society and trying to figure out why becoming a billionaire didn't fix all of that for her. And frankly, I'm empathetic to that. Right. You have a billion dollars, and you mean to tell me you can't buy your way out of weight stigma? Like, you can't just force people to call you pretty? Like, I don't know. Isn't that what, like, Bezos did? He just got enough money and made people agree that he was attractive. Right.

[Elise Hu]

And you mean to Tell me, do they agree?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

They do. When he's standing there, I think. Okay, well.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I mean, bring it back to performing beauty.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

He is with a woman who fully perform it.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Honey.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

That's labor.

[Dory Shafrier]

She shows her work.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, she shows her work. And his ex wife does not. So you really see.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

How. You know, the dynamics.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. At work or at play.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yep.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah. It's the status symbol of extreme wealth.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Right. Yeah. You know, I think that type of the expectation that that type of woman is who you should be with, I think comes with the Maserati, the yacht. It's like a package. You go, totally. Yeah, totally. He's got the billionaire package. But a billionaire woman doesn't have that package. A billionaire black woman, especially, doesn't have that package.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

And, yeah, hold her accountable for being a billionaire. Listen, I'm on bar. I'm on a board with that. Do all that stuff. But I don't think you blame Oprah Winfrey for the fact that your mom took you to Weight Watchers.

[Elise Hu]

I get that.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I think you're blaming Oprah Winfrey because you don't want to blame your mom.

[Elise Hu]

I get that.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

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[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

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[Dory Shafrier]

Well, I think that's actually a good segue to the next topic I'd love to cover, which is we are coming up on the new season of Bama Rush.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Oh, yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Which is something you have written quite trenchantly about and talked about. And, you know, I'm curious, like, why, like, the first season of Bama Rush was 2021. So we're now, like, three years into this, we're now on our fourth season. People are still somehow obsessed with it. And, you know, kind of like this sort of reminds me of what you were saying about how reality stars didn't look the same 15 years ago. Like, now you have these young women who are into Bama Rush with, like, this is how I need to look for Bama Rush. There's like a Bama Rush look and with this, like, full awareness that they're being watched from outside the universities in addition to being, like, judged inside the. The sorority houses. So I'd love to just hear your thoughts on how you think Bama Rush has, like, made an impact on the culture.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Bama Rush is like, trad wives is like all of the women on the dating shows. Yes. It's about the look of a particular kind of GOP wife. It's about the ascendance of wanting to be a stay at home mom. Right. All of that is just a response to powerful interests wanting to claw back some power over women. And I think the Bama Rush phenomenon just happened to hit at that moment. We had the technology to do it and we had people willing to participate in it. A lot of people were at home and had been at home for a while. So you were like, you know, all of us were being. Getting comfortable with being voyeurs in this sort of way to keep ourselves entertained. And we love consuming young women. We love consuming young women. And so the Bama Rush is just this perfect stew for that.

[Elise Hu]

And crucially, the. These women don't have an issue with performing in this way. Right. They want to, and they find it empowering.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

And, oh, I got tons of letters from like, yeah, you act like we're paper dolls. One of them said, you didn't give us credit for our autonomy. I was like, no, I actually gave you credit for it because I start from the position that these are willing participants, which says to us that whatever it is they are doing to themselves, subjecting themselves to being judged, being shunned, being evaluated, being found wanting whatever they are subjecting themselves to, the possible rewards are so great to them that they're willing to do it. So my question was, well, what are those rewards? What's the payoff for being a Bama Rush girl? Right. And the payoff is not to be a Bama Rush girl. It is to be a future Bama Rush wife. It is about their proximity to men in a really powerful system in the University of Alabama that is that incubates like that state's power elite, the politicians, the financial class, all of that. And so becoming a, you know, pledging is just a sort of way station on the way to becoming that. And so just like saying, you know, willing to do Pilates and get my Botox, I'm willing to, you know, stand in front of a phone and, you know, evaluate the, you know, my style for millions of people as being my self worth. Yes, you're choosing it, but that's because the rewards, you perceive them as being pretty great. And it's pretty weird that in 20, 21, 22, those rewards are pretty much what their grandmother's rewards were. So yeah, these are just like really elite finishing schools for access to, you know, elite society, which for women still really hinges on only two things, the family you're born into and the man you marry.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's dark.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I know, yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

When you start thinking about all, and I know this is what literally what you do, but when you start thinking about the web of connections and how all this stuff is so interrelated, it can really get you down.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

It does. You know, I take those, some like pleasure in like it gets me down. But I feel like if I can sometimes capture like this, you know, Bama Rush is like this moving phenomenon. I can capture something like that and show, you know, in this really concrete way how all of those things are interrelated. I get some satisfaction from maybe making visible something that derives a lot of its power from being invisible, you know. So when people are like feel convicted because they are consuming those young women, which a lot of my friends did, by the way, they told me I made them feel bad. I was like, I'm sorry, but if it means we take a moment and go, yeah, like what am I doing exactly? Why AM I a 45 year old woman watching a 20 year old tell me about her David Yurman bracelet? What's happened here? Right? I think that's, I think that's worth it. I hope it is. I'm hanging a lot of my hat on it. Being worth it.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. This makes your work so important. Just naming it, labeling, helping create containers for what we're seeing.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I love containers. Containers are my favorite thing. Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

And that's why we love you, Tressy. You co hosted a podcast for a long time with Roxane Gay here to slay. And, and I'm curious Do you have other plans to be podcasting again regularly? And if not, yeah. What did you learn from yourself or about yourself in that podcasting journey? And from those conversations, we had a.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Lot of fun, Roxanne and I doing here at Slay. Talk about, like, I think, just capturing a moment. I think the podcast, us doing this just captured a moment. When we first started talking about doing it, it was really just about two people who liked and respected each other. And every time we saw each other, we had a good time, and we said, hey, we should do more of that. And podcasts were happening, so we were like, oh, that's a way to do more of that. But then the world changed almost. I mean, we'd only been recording, like, four months or so before, you know, Covid, fallout from Trump. All of that was happening. And so, you know, it was just a moment. And I don't know that I could recreate that, but I did learn a few things. I learned, as you all well know, it's hard. It is hard work making interesting, relevant audio content, and you have to figure it out on the fly because there's really no real guidebook. So, one, I have an immense amount of respect for people who do it, so thank y'all. I also think it is super important that more women do it, because a lot of what we tried to do was hire women to be on our show, especially women of color and queer women, and it was really hard to find them. And that is because the system doesn't apprentice them.

[Elise Hu]

There's not a good pipeline.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

No, there is not, especially on that technical side. And so I learned that, and that's become one of my sort of, you know, pet issues. I also think I, you know, learned another way to tell stories, which I really love. I like trying to, again, take these things that can be really hard to think about to consume and making them maybe a little bit more digestible and for people to feel a little less alone about trying to figure it out. I'm not sure we have enough journalism or media that helps us figure stuff out. Yeah, we got a lot that sells us or, like, brands it, but I don't think we have enough that helps us figure stuff out.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, trusty, before we let you go, is there anything that you feel like is bringing you hope or joy in the present moment?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there is. I've been trying to spend as much time sort of in nature and outside as I possibly can. You know, one of the things that media does is it lowers your sight Line?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

You know, you're just looking in the phone. You're looking at the tv, the computer, and I just. The act of kind of going up and, like, looking at the horizon really does change my perspective a little bit about things. I find it helps with my anxiety and my stress level to do that, which is not news, I'm sure. You know, doctors have been telling us that forever. I just finally figured it out for myself. But I think during these times, it's more important probably than ever. As I said, I get a lot of sort of vicarious thrill and comfort from the people I meet during the course of my work, who are doing really important work and somehow make it look fun and easy. There's an elderly black woman in Louisville, Kentucky, named Ms. Donna. I actually just got her phone number yesterday from my friend, because I said, I'm feeling bad. I need to talk to Ms. Donna. Ms. Donna is just this woman who has lived more life than anybody, has a right to live, been through enough where she could check out and nobody would blame her. She's lost her children to violence. She's dealt with predatory landlords. She survived the civil rights movement. I mean, you know, just by being elderly and black, she won. She's been through a lot. And when I talk to Ms. Donna, she is so future focused at, like 68, 70 years old. She is organizing people in Section 8 housing, or subsidized housing for better living conditions, most of them overwhelmingly young women with children. And she's not doing that. She'll tell me, I'm not doing. I'm not going to live to see it. She's like, I'm doing this for me. I'm done. You know, she's like, I just want to get it done before she goes. I want to get it done before I die so I can see the young girls in my apartment complex win. She wants to see them win. She wants them to taste winning before she dies. And when I talk to people like that, I go, well, I've got some nerve, right? And so I get a lot of vicarious comfort from the fact that I think there are probably a lot more Ms. Donna's out there than we know. And if you are fortunate enough to find one, checking in with them and being in relationship with them, I think really can give you a little hope. And I'm kind of hopeful by the student movements. I know they have taken a lot of. A lot of flack in the media, some of it earned, but a lot of it unearned. Because no matter what I have a position that I never judge protesters. If my butt's not the one out there, I don't judge them. Right. So I never judge protest tactics unless I'm part of the protest. So you can do that as much as you want, but if they are protesting, it means they are paying attention. And I am very hopeful about anybody right now who is paying attention, because I think we better be.

[Elise Hu]

Well, here's to Ms. Donna and all the Ms. Donnas.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah. Shout out to all the Ms. Donnas.

[Elise Hu]

And thank you again to you, Tressy, for being such a clarifying voice.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Oh, thank y'all for thinking I'm clarifying. I really appreciate it. I do.

[Dory Shafrier]

I, I feel like that is going to be one of the episodes that, like, I go back to. I don't like, re. Listen to forever 35 episodes. Generally, like, as a rule, this one, though. But this one, I feel like is a, Is a re listener for sure.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I love what she said about what she's doing to take better care of herself, too. Just the boundaries and that you don't have to say yes to the same things that you would have last year, year or two years ago or five years ago, because your life has changed and you have changed or your capacities have changed. And I, I have trouble with that. So.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, very wise, Very wise. Well, Elise, let's get into intentions.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Last week I said I was going to do my tennis elbow exercises and I'm happy to report that I have been doing them. I've been keeping this little two pound weight on my desk and so I can just like rest my hand on my, on the armrest of my chair and just like, do the exercises like as I'm talking.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Which is nice. I saw, I actually saw my, my doctor today and he was like, doing great.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Like, it's going. It's going great. Like, he did say tennis elbow is like, very sneaky. And like when you think, just when you think, like, everything is cool, it can come back. So he's like, definitely keep doing the exercises. Like, you know, just stay the course, essentially. But that was, that was a nice follow up. Yes, it was great news. And then this week we are going on a trip soon. I know that you have had a crazy travel summer in July. Yes, yes. But this is my first and only trip of the summer and I've been, I've become a little obsessed with the subreddit. Her one bag. Are you familiar?

[Elise Hu]

No.

[Dory Shafrier]

Are you familiar with, you're familiar with the concept of one bagging, right?

[Elise Hu]

I assume. So does that mean just like everything into one bag?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, like one bag and a personal item.

[Elise Hu]

Oh yeah, of course. That's my whole life.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. So I guess there is like a bigger subreddit for everyone. But then women found that they had like special hacks. Hacks or like unique needs. And so there's a special subreddit just for women, female identifying people who want to one bag. And people will post, they'll be like, I'm, I have this trip, I'm going to Italy for a week, then I'm going to London and then I'm flying to Cairo. Or like, you know, so it's usually some like crazy itinerary with like multiple climates and they'll be like, how does this look? I'm trying to one bag it and. Oh, that's fun. People will like give feedback on they're packing. I'm. I'm like considering posting my packing list.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And share it on the Patreon to.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I'll share it on the Patreon. I might post it to her. One bag. I usually travel with one bag but like I am sort of intrigued by the idea of like cutting it down even more.

[Elise Hu]

So one of my major. I get asked about how to pack all the time and I just did a feature for Downtime, the substack by Alicia Ramos about packing and how I pack pack only because you know, I've been a foreign correspondent and the, the two tips that I always share about packing are one, after you've packed your whole bag, do an edit and take out a third of it. So because that you won't need like usually you, even after you pack it into one bag, you've over packed so you still take stuff out. And I do that for my toiletries in particular because liquids weigh the most.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Most.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, liquids weigh the most. So try not to even bring liquids if you can if you're going someplace where they're likely going to be there or you can just buy them when you're there.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And my other one is, is packing cubes. I always like, I stuff everything into packing cubes such that everything gets really, really compact. But it's tricky. It's. This is all tricky during ski season and those months like when there's just a lot of gear. And so I try to like level that up by getting the. What is it? What is that? Like, you know how you can order products from like overseas and everything's kind of like shrink wrapped. Is it shrink wrapped like where they.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, like vacuum sealed.

[Elise Hu]

Vacuum sealed. Yeah. So I've gotten one of those vacuum seal things for a lot of winter coats that I can pack my entire family into two carry on for skiing. And that's the only way it's possible.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's really funny.

[Elise Hu]

But, yeah, this one bagging thing is a great intention. It's kind of fun, too. And it sounds like there's a whole subreddit around it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, there's this, like. There's like a whole culture around it that I'm kind of fascinated by. And what's also nice is that now I can one bag it with Henry, whereas, like, when he was a baby, that was impossible because babies have so much shit even though they are tiny humans. Yeah. So that's also fun.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I always encourage each of my kids. This is all in the downtime newsletter that we can link from our page. But I encourage my kids especially because I don't want them dragging their own suitcases because then I have to deal with it. Like, I have to put them above in the overhead compartments. And so I give each. Each daughter one packing cube. And so it's like, here's your packing cube. This is what you can put your stuff into. So, like, wait, you put your whole.

[Dory Shafrier]

Family'S stuff in one bag? One carry on?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I try to. Well, for summer, of course.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

Because they wear one pair of shoes, and then the extra pair of shoes I can pack. So I usually make them wear the tennis shoes, the sneakers, and then their sandals. I can just hold down and pack and then. Yeah, but then Rob is separate. So we do not include Rob because Rob says that he has male clothes and that it will always take up more space and he has more stuff because he's coming from a different home.

[Dory Shafrier]

So you. So wait, so you fit your stuff and your three children's stuff into one carry on?

[Elise Hu]

One carry on. And then they have their own backpacks for their, like, iPad and headphones.

[Dory Shafrier]

No, I know, but, like. Yeah, I mean, I'm impressed.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. But I travel super. You know, I travel super light. So this is years I got my 10,000 hours of.

[Dory Shafrier]

So maybe I'll just send. I'll send you my pictures of what I'm going to bring, and then you.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Can edit it down for me.

[Elise Hu]

I can help you edit. Totally.

[Dory Shafrier]

Totally.

[Elise Hu]

I think this is so fun. This is like, my area of expertise.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay, great. Wonderful. To help the other thing, like, I will have access to laundry.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

So, like.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I don't really. You're right. I don't really have to bring that Much. What if Henry and I just bring one bag? Oh, my God.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Whoa.

[Dory Shafrier]

You are real. You're blowing my mind right now. You're like. My mind is like.

[Elise Hu]

I'm so happy this is your intention because this is an area where I can really help.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm so happy. How did journaling daily go for you?

[Elise Hu]

As soon as I intended it, I got really good about it. So, like, as soon as I said it out loud, I remembered to like. Because I use an app, a journaling app called Day One.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

And Day One is on my phone and on your. On. On my laptop. And it's in the cloud, so anything I add from my phone automatically is on the laptop version. And so I have been journaling photos and making little notes, like a little gratitude or funny things that the kids have said. And so I've been. It's like I said, I'm not writing essays. I'm not writing tresses in there.

[Dory Shafrier]

Sure.

[Elise Hu]

I'm just journaling. And I've gotten much better at it ever since I said I would.

[Dory Shafrier]

So what's it called? One Day.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, Day One.

[Dory Shafrier]

Day One. Sorry. Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it's called Day One. It's so simple. And you can put photos, you can do voice memos in there, and you can link from there if you want to, if there's some, like, great article. But my. That intention went so well that I am going to go back to a more physical intention, which I have been historically not great at. Like, the taking. Taking vitamins every day did not go so well. So this week my intention is going to be to foam roll. I am sore af. I'm just, like, sore all the time because. And it's not always from exercise. It's often because I have decided to jump back into a tough workout. You know, like a mega former workout when I. I didn't exercise for five days. And so now I'm just, like, sore all the time. I have to work it out. And there's so many stretches that just won't get at wherever my soreness is, like inside my hip and my sacrum. And so I am trying to foam roll as my intention this week.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that intention. As someone who has a foam roller that. That sits mostly unused, but that, like, that, like, it band foam roll is so good, but.

[Elise Hu]

Ouch, ouch.

[Dory Shafrier]

But then you're like, oh, it hurts so good. Maybe I'll go foam roll. You're. You're really inspiring me today.

[Elise Hu]

You're packing you and Henry into one bag and foam rolling.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my God. I wonder how. I wonder. And I'm actually really curious how he will react to that.

[Elise Hu]

Just giving him the.

[Dory Shafrier]

The packing cube.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, they like their cube. Like, when we're leaving, they're like, when we're getting ready to pack, each. Each daughter is like, where's my cube? I need my cube.

[Dory Shafrier]

Will you send me. Will you send me the cubes that you use? Because I have a couple cubes and I don't. I don't love them.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I. I got a set of free ones, and so I have one that I use from a free one. And then I. I got a set recently as a gift also. So I'll. I'll send you a photo. Photo.

[Dory Shafrier]

Are they compression cubes or. They're just cube cubes.

[Elise Hu]

I don't even know the difference.

[Dory Shafrier]

I've been. I've been like, going down a real rabbit hole here.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, okay. Man, I. I've never read this subreddit. I just, like, you know, I think.

[Dory Shafrier]

You would enjoy it just because it's a little voyeuristic. You know what I mean? Like, you're like, oh, that, that. That's a choice to bring.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

You know what I mean?

[Elise Hu]

One time there was a woman who grabbed my bag because I have an away bag and everybody has an away bag and who grabbed my carry on by mistake and like, walked off the plane. And so by the time I was grabbing my bag and I was sitting behind her, I got her bag, which was obviously the wrong bag, but I knew it wasn't mine. So I got off the plane. I was like, where do we find this woman? And we were trying to page her from the Houston airport. La la la. Can't find her. Nobody, nobody responds. So then I decided we should open the bag, which felt so creepy, like we have to find something identifying, like maybe she has a pill bottle or something. But there was nothing in there except we discovered how well organized she was. I was like, damn, girl, I love that.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's so funny.

[Elise Hu]

Well, I have no idea who you are and you have my bag, but bravo on your packet.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's really funny. Okay, noted. All right, well, thanks everyone for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks so much, everybody.

[Elise Hu]

See you next time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bye.