Matt Abaticola (2:23)

Commanders, damn it. That's four times. Well, now I owe Dan a dollar. So it's we're up to four and once we get enough I have to buy pizza. So that's where we're at so against the Commanders, was that Ben Johnson taking advantage of a deficiency the Commanders had in defending the run game or is this something that they could build on and is somewhat sustainable in what he wants to do in their offense moving forward?

Dan Durkin (2:48)

I mean, it definitely was taking advantage of the opponent for sure. They, from my perspective, not really strong at the defensive tackle position and their, their ends tend to kind of like rush up the field, so created some lanes. What I like though was duo has been like their bread and butter, right? So they're trying to get double teams on the down lineman and then create a crease, get up to the second level. You saw them attacking wider against the Commanders. And from my perspective, when you think about who DeAndre Swift is, he is not that man gap guy that's going to run in between the tackles. And I frankly don't think that they have somebody on the team right now that really fits that mold. So he is really a give him one decision, let him make a cut and go. And they were doing a lot of that, giving him tosses, getting him to the boundary, find your crease, plant your foot and get up field. So they were really creative with their blocking schemes as they've been all year. And I think that early on in the season, assignment wise, they really weren't on the same page. You know, you didn't have the, the full complement of the five offensive line at the time really playing together. But Joe Tuni is a force and like the way that they've been able to use him out in space and really run behind him. So on the left side they were using a lot of B gap, you know, kind of like choose the B gap or the C C gap and go. But the guy that really dominated in that game was Darnell Wright. I mean he was a man. They ran a crack toss play at the end of the game where Mike Sandra still the, the guy that used to play in Michigan was out there. You could tell he wanted no part of Darnell, right? He tried to run like the loop around him. So he just got him on the ground with one hand and then was able to get to the second level. So I think it's really finding out where you trust to run behind in the offensive line, but then really understanding who Swift is as a runner because he's a one cut guy. He's not an in between the tackle banger. Give him some space outside and that's where he can really get vertical. So I like, it's kind of getting, getting more intimate with your, your personnel what you can actually do with them. So I think they're self scouting the bi weekly pretty strong.

Dan Bernstein (4:44)

I'm so glad we started here, Dan, because people who listen to forward progress knows that one of my desire. I had two things written down going into the game and one was I need more outside zone runs. And especially because you didn't mention Drew Dahlman. That's what he does. That's what he has done. And especially moving right. I know they did some moving left, but when he gets out to the right side, he's just really good at that. And there's a choreography to it. There is a number where those steps have to be in almost a kick line to get everything timed up just right. And they did it. They did. And we'll get to my. The other thing that I asked for later when we start talking about defense. But outside zone is a lifestyle. It isn't just something you do. When you talk about Mike Shanahan, Kyle Shanahan, the Alex Gibbs blocking and crack toss, obviously, yes, a staple of that. What I'm wondering is, is this an ident shift as long as Swift is here? That if to Matt's question now, the passing game is going to have some different counters. Now we are talking about boot action and we're talking about some of those. A tight end drag all the way to the other side of the field and some things that are more lateral in this direction, this way backside passing game. What do you see as if there is a commitment to this? What do you. Where are we looking next?

Dan Durkin (6:18)

That when you think about it, I think that given where Ben is at right now with this cast of characters that he has, they cannot be that banger team like they were with the Lions. He doesn't have his David Montgomery. Do you know what I'm saying? So you have to reckon with what you have. So now to your point, if you are creating that the defense is chasing laterally, laterally, hey, we see. And then all of a sudden it's a boot back the other way. Caleb's been running really well. He's been. He's been picking his spots to run. So I think that people now can really appreciate how good he is as a runner to the boundary. But then to your point, you're really creating like easier, just like leveled concepts, the ones that I've liked to see like that. What I really like about how Ben structures his offense is wherever Caleb ends up in the pocket, he typically has like a vertical read up the field. You have a short option, an intermediate option. And a deep option. And so now when you're talking about like, these drags and these, these, you know, crossers that come off of, you know, outside zone or wide zone schemes, this is the personnel that they have on this team right now. They don't have a ton of burners. Rome's the only close thing that they have to a burner. So when you think about getting Colston Loveland coming, coming across the formation, getting DJ Coming across the formation, getting Luther Burden coming across the formation, just get the ball out of your hands and into your playmaker space, creating that gap because you're tricking the linebacker's eyes. You're making them press to the line, the scrimmage first. Now all of a sudden you' created the gap between them and the safety. So where they can build from this I think is huge. But you have to worry about, like, DeAndre Swift's getting a lot of carries, man, he's touching the ball a lot. And so they really do need to find if Mananga is going to be the guy that's going to come in. Roshan Johnson just doesn't seem to be somebody that they trust in any scenario.

Dan Bernstein (7:58)

He's not good.

Dan Durkin (8:01)

I keep saying this, like, gazoo thing on his head, which is fine every time he comes out, but I think.

Dan Bernstein (8:06)

Everybody should wear the, the guardian cap.

Dan Durkin (8:10)

I don't want.

Dan Bernstein (8:10)

I don't want to stigmatize the guardian cap.

Dan Durkin (8:13)

I just had to do it because I'm petty sometimes. I know, but.

Dan Bernstein (8:15)

But he just isn't. What is he good at?

Dan Durkin (8:18)

Special teams.

Dan Bernstein (8:20)

Great.

Dan Durkin (8:21)

Leave him there.

Dan Bernstein (8:22)

Okay. Thank you.

Dan Durkin (8:22)

Yeah. But now what I'm getting at is like, if you're going to build the basis of your offense around this wide zone and then the counter off of that, can the nun guy kind of be that same type of guy? I don't know. And so, like, running back is such a, you know, like those guys basically have 30 car accidents every weekend. That's like their job description. Go out there and bang your body a bunch of time. So it's going to take a toll on them. So, like, I do think that being able to relieve a little bit of those and have some answers with the playoffs game, that's Ben Johnson's thing. Make the play look the same for the first two or three clicks, get the linebackers in limbo about what their assignment is, all of a sudden you're breaking it back the other way. So I do think this is something foundational they can move forward with.

Matt Abaticola (9:03)

Now, as Dan asked, if we're creating opportunities on the pass off, extending these run plays out. One thing that we've discussed, and then Caleb discussed it yesterday or two days ago with, with the media about his struggle, his struggles and growing inaccuracy while throwing on the run. One of those things that you. What have you seen from Caleb in. In that action as far as the. The game plan is concerned? And overall with Caleb, what have you seen as far as his growth, his development under Ben Johnson? And I think Ben's learned it was a little bit of a heavier lift that he thought going into it, and really where he's at right now of breaking Caleb down and getting him to a point to be able to even get plays called in the huddle in a timely fashion. So lots of stuff there for you. But overall with. With Caleb, what have you seen as far as his growth, development under Ben Johnson?

Dan Durkin (9:54)

It's been really incredible to see just like, week to week, the steps that he does take. Because when you think about who Caleb has been and where he's been throughout his career, he's been kind of the man that's expected to make, like, all the plays and, you know, like, people like to use the term, like hero ball and like, he's got to, you know, make seven seconds back in the. In the pocket. Then all of a sudden, he's finding a guy who broke free on, like, you know, a scramble rule. He's playing more within structure, which. Which to me has been a challenge. He's. I think I saw some crazy statistic. I don't know if I want to quote this, but somebody said something like he had only played, like, seven snaps under center in, like, his last year at us. Something crazy like that. Like a really, really low number. So now you're asking a guy to play under center and switch his footing. He puts his left foot forward now instead of his right foot forward. So you're asking him to mechanically do a lot of different things that he didn't before. But in terms of progress, I see him show a willingness to play within structure more, which is great. You know, like that. That, to me is. Is definitely a huge step forward. And he was bad against the Vikings. You know, if we're just being honest, I thought he was really good against the Lions until that game got out of hand. He was fantastic against the Dallas Cowboys, and then he was okay against the Raiders. And I think, you know, the. The same. Same. I give the same assessment for. For the. The Raiders in the Commanders game. What I'm noticing with him, my Biggest concern is his accuracy is an issue. And that's not really something that I thought of him coming in. I, you know, you go back and watch his tape, but I never really thought that that was kind of to be something that he was going to struggle with other than deep balls. He showed him deep ball accuracy issues, you know, in his collegiate game. But I think it really comes down to settle your feet, plant all 10 cleats into the ground and let it rip. Like just. You have to trust yourself to do it. And when he does that, he throw. He's got an incredibly strong arm, but the accuracy issues are becoming somewhat of a, you know, a concern for me. I think he's 32nd in like adjusted accuracy, you know, for this season, which is not, not a good place to be considering where they're at. But in terms of his relationship with Ben, Ben's never had somebody this talented before, so I think now you have to marry this against like Jared Goff, who's like a great student of the game, doesn't have anything that, that he has. Very few things that Caleb has, you know, in terms of physical skills, but the, the, the maturation that I've seen with him this season is a willingness to play within structure, a willingness to get the ball out of his hands quicker, which I think is, is really good. The biggest indicator for that is his sack percentage has gone on very significantly this year to me, which is, it's a good marker and a good metric to think about because he brought a lot of the sacks that happened last year on him ball, you know, holding on the ball a little bit too long. But if he can clean up the accuracy issues, if he can trust the read a little bit earlier, you're seeing him throw with anticipation. You're seeing him actually willing to throw into tight windows, like all those types of things. That to me is a sign that, like, they're learning what he wants to do and they're kind of paring down the playbook for him a little bit. He's got a phenomenal connection with Romo Dunze. I'm not sure other than, you know, Zakias, what they can really do with the other receivers. It seems like they're forced forcing targets for, for, for DJ Moore. You know, it's like these like prescribed screens and stuff like that. So I really only see like a lot of very strong chemistry with, with two people, and that's Zakias and, you know, Odunze. And then they're forcing targets, I think, into co command. They're forcing targets into, you know, coast in Loveland. So I think he's still kind of learning the personnel, but it's very evidence to me he has immense trust in Zakius and Odunze. So how do you branch out and really utilize all the other skill position players that they brought in to run in this offense? But arrow up for Caleb, man, I think that this kid, he could be really, really good.

Dan Bernstein (13:29)

Something that I am familiar with regarding the way you watch games is looking at an offensive formation and then figuring out if you can guess the likelihood of the play they're going to run. And this goes back to Trustman.

Dan Durkin (13:46)

Oh, he was the easiest.

Dan Bernstein (13:47)

And Nagy. I remember, I remember you showed me where you said, you said look that you, you were calling out the play as they would break the huddle. You'd look at the personnel grouping, you'd see where they were starting before anybody went in motion or anything.

Dan Durkin (14:01)

You had it and run smash on this because it's a third and four inside the 25 yard line. And you know, Alshon Jeffries flanked out. Yeah, like, it was, it was so predictable.

Dan Bernstein (14:10)

So my question is, is Ben Johnson passing the Durkin test?

Dan Durkin (14:14)

Oh, yeah, he. So he's like McVeigh and all of them that he loves to like. I'd say like the, the, the quintessential Ben Johnson is that really condensed formation where they'll have like two, two, two stacked. Like everybody's close to the line of scrimmage, right? You have one, you have one back in the backfield, and then you have, you know, like basically doubles on both side of it. And then they'll run like a little bit of motion just to get like a coverage indicator. But then what the, the whole idea here is they make all the action look similar. And the other part of it is they require their, their receivers and their tight ends to really block in the run game. And so you see them incorporate that in the past game too. Like they'll come up and fe slip behind it as well. So the whole idea here is creating conflict by running the same thing. Fewer personnel groupings, fewer formations, but being able to window, dress and run, make maybe four or five things off of that same look. So he's really good at saying, oh, they had a first and 10 in the third at the 35 to start. Maybe it was like a drive starter and they came out in the same formation. But now he's got either like a trick playoff that he's got to play action off of it. So he is really Good at building. And this is, this is one of the biggest criticisms I've had of all the previous offensive coordinators or offensive minded people that they've had in Chicago is you have to have a plan. And what I mean by that is your concepts needs to build off of each other. You can't just have this grab bag of plays that you're going to. That was Matt Nagy's biggest thing. He had this huge Denny's menu in front of his face, but it's like, dude, pare it down. You see Ben's got like one cheek and he's, he's basically what he's doing off that is saying, I've shown them this look, but they haven't seen this play. I've shown them this look. They haven't seen play action off of this. So the ability to condense down what it is that you do, simplify it from a formation perspective, make things look the same and then build off of it is what makes him. Shanahan, McVay, Matt LaFleur, all them really difficult to defend because the defense has seen the same look and they're like, they could run eight things from this and we have no idea what's coming.

Dan Bernstein (16:07)

And this is part of my frustration with what had been a bigger problem. And I mean penalties in general remain a problem. But the pre snap stu makes me crazy because I always think like that might have been the call. Like so many plays are building on something else and so much of it is right call, right situation, right personnel. And I don't know, I would have to ask Ben sometime. Like how many of those times where Darnell Wright jumps or Jonah Jackson jumps or these illegal formation things are just making me crazy where you had it. And that's these games come down to three or four opportunities to make that play. And it just has to make him what, his head want to explode when everything he's been setting up for is then ruined because somebody didn't have the discipline to watch the ball get snapped.

Dan Durkin (17:01)

Correct. Because now you go from a potential shot play to how do we recover those 10 yards that we just lost and potentially set ourselves up for a field goal. And so no, he is super opportunistic. And when you look at it like he calls shot plays on like every drive and sometimes they take it, sometimes they take it, sometimes they don't. But he is super aggressive. If you actually go back and look at it, he is really good about getting at least one deep receiver on every single play. And early in the season they were there. And that's when I was like, oh, is Caleb going to be able to recognize these?

Dan Bernstein (17:32)

Right? Is he, is he working deep to shallow, though?

Dan Durkin (17:35)

I've noticed that he works more like the intermediate area, which I like. You know, I personally think that that's kind of where you think from a spac perspective, your, your margin for, for success on a deep throw decreases because, yes, he might be behind a defensive back, but the ball is going to hang in the air for like two or three seconds so he has a chance to recover. It's those voids that he's able to create between the linebackers and the secondary. That, that, that's really kind of like the sweet spot of where this goes. He does tend to read things, I think from, you know, they talk about the ladder. Do you read it from the bottom rung to the top or the top to the bottom? I think he's kind of reading it bottoms up, which is good because I think that they're training into get the ball out quicker, get the ball into the hands of your playmakers, and then let it go from there. But he has shown like a real, like, willingness to say, if Rome is partially open on this, I'm letting it go. And I come back to. He ripped a ball against the Raiders. It was Rome's, I think it was Rome's only touchdown catch of that game. He said. So maybe he had two that game. But it was basically he threw it from about like the 40 yard line and Rome was right at the end zone and he threw that ball when Rome hadn't even made his break yet. And there was a, there was a linebacker underneath. He just like layered. He's lasered and over the top of this guy. That, to me, shows me on those deep throws. If it's Rome out there, he's probably going to take that shot. So there's a massive chemistry between the two of us. So I do think it has a little bit to do with personnel. And I am kind of wondering, like, where does DJ Moore fit in? All of this is kind of what I've been grappling with because he's so good with the ball in his hands. But, like, they're getting the ball with him, you know, getting the ball to him out of the backfield. They're getting the ball to him on like screens and stuff like that. For me, I'm like, oh, he's gonna crush from the slot and like that Aman Ra world where they're just gonna be able to get him on those Crossers because he's so good at like choice routes two way go. And then all of a sudden they just haven't really been able to unlock that. And the guy they've been doing that with his Zacchaeus, which is really interesting. So I'm kind of wondering now, did they signal something with the, the pickup, Colston, Loveland and with the pick of Luther Burden about like these are more the molds that we're looking at. Maybe people that are a little bit more shifty in those. Because I just think about that this team, it doesn't look like they fully understand how to utilize everybody just yet. And I wonder if that has to do with Ben has other people in mind for this offense that just aren't there in terms of Colston and Luther Burton. So I'm really interested to see how it plays out with DJ Moore.

Matt Abaticola (19:47)

Taking a look at the other side of the ball, Dan. The defense and the number of takeaways they've had has been impressive and I didn't expect to see these kind of numbers early on in this season. And the fact that Dennis Allen has done it with some of the starters being gone for several games, how has he been able to be so strategic in how he's planned his game plans to increase the opportunities for these takeaways?

Dan Durkin (20:12)

On this defense, he's really good at mixing coverages and he's really good at showing something pre snap and then dropping into something that's totally different. But I think another person that needs to get a little bit of credit in all of this is Al Harris. If you think about who Al Harris was as a player, he was a gambler. I remember him just torturing the Bears, just guessing on routes and the other when he was with the packers and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, sweet, there's another pick six, Mal Harris, because he's willing to jump a route. But I, I have to say, like Kevin Byard is playing some of the best football in the NFL of any, any safety in the league right now. His ability to recognize patterns based on formation and based on personnel grouping and then guess correctly on those has been huge. And now you're seeing it rub off on the other defensive backs as well. So they're gambling, but they're gambling with the right calculus in their head. And so I think it does have a little bit to do with the scouting and the coaching that they have to understand what this team is potentially going to do in this, in this personnel grouping. From this down a distance on this portion of the field that they're willing to gamble on there. But I also think it comes down to, like, they are showing one look and then moving into another. Everybody thinks of them like, press man, press man, press man. They've actually been more of his own team this year. And so I think that that kind of works to his. To his advantage, where everybody thinks like, oh, he's just going to play cover one and cover three, and he's going to press you all the time. He'll show that. And then he'll drop back into, you know, four. He'll drop it back into two. He'll drop back into two, man. So I think that he. He's been really good about showing one thing. And the other part that. That's, you know, really impressive to me is he. He was originally doing this with the majority of his defensive backfield on the sideline. You think about. They didn't have Jalen, they didn't have, you know, Kyler Gordon there for a while. So he was doing this with backups for. For them, you know, the first couple of weeks. And then on top of that, this team can't rush the passer, you know, and so when you're. That that's a bad combination when you think about Russian coverage not really working together. So I think it is a testament to his willingness to mix up coverages, particularly on third down. They've been excellent on third down. I think they're fourth in the league at, you know, getting. Getting off the field on third down, which is a wonderful place to be in terms of statistics. But if they can get the passers going in any way, I think that it's going to really help out. And obviously getting Jalen Johnson back is going to be huge because you guys are probably seeing it. Teams are picking on Nayshaan Wright over and over again because I think they're scared to go to Stevenson side of the field. So they need to find a way to rush the passer a little bit more. But I've been really impressed with what they've been able to do because this pass rush has been largely absent other. Other than the Commander's game.

Dan Bernstein (22:37)

Which leads me to the next question on my list, and that is we've seen one game of Kyler Gordon. Kyler Gordon was one of the few names that Dennis Allen singled out in his introductory press conference for a reason why he was excited to take over this def. We know that Gordon is a multifaceted athlete who does have a good sense of timing, speed, physicality, for rushing the passer. But what I'm wondering is would it make sense to see if Gordon can play boundary corner rather than just the slot. Nayshaan Wright is fine as replacement level. He's, he's still mistake prone. Obviously we know he can run because we saw the next gen stats, the speed that he got to on the pick six that he had, really great athlete. But would you change it up a little bit or does it not matter anymore? Because it's because slot corner is as important as a boundary corner.

Dan Durkin (23:37)

I wrote last year that Kyler Gordon was going to emerge as one of the three best slot corners in the league, nickel corners in the league and he has pass. He, he is phenomenal in that role. And the reason that that's become such a crucial role is teams are playing 11 personnel 60% of the time, 65 of the time around the league. So you're, you're naturally going to match that with you know, three defensive backs. So the nickel corner is effectively a starter at this point in time. So when you have somebody who's premier in that role that can do two things. I think there's two things that really distinguish, you know, great, great slot corners from just the third best corner on your team is can you defend a two way go? Because if you think about the, what boundary corners have the ability to have is the sideline is their friend. You don't have the sideline as your friend when you're lining up from the slot. You have to defend a two way go. So that's really tough. He has the quickness to read and mirror if he guesses wrong. And he has the recovery speeds to basically match like oh, he's going out and not going in, but he can, he can match with that. And the other part about it is he is very willing in the run game to stick his head in there and it doesn't matter whether it's taking on a block or actually taking somebody about somebody down to be in the force defender. So I think that his, his toughness out of there is, is really good. But McLeod played pretty well. So if they did want to explore something like that, they could potentially say if hey, if Wright's having a tough go and it's going to take three or four more weeks for JJ to, to get back, maybe they entertain something like that. I just think that his ability to really kind of take away the slot slot receivers, there's a really good one that the Saints have this week. Obviously he is very good, he's very fast and they'll, they'll put a lobby in there as well. So I think they're probably going to keep Kyler in there at that point in time. But the other aspect about his game is he's a phenomenal blitzer. And I thought that he was going to be potentially the skeleton key that can help them maybe get a little bit more pressure on the quarterback. Just because when you think about, I hate to bring up the name, but when Iberflus was here and they couldn't generate a pass rush, it was Kyler Gordon that was typically the guy that was making the big plays off of those delayed slot blitzes, whether he was stripping the ball, he was creating force fumbles. So I mean, he is naturally really good from that spot. So. So I hear what you're saying. I think that they're probably going to see how many weeks they can get by with right before.

Dan Bernstein (25:42)

Yeah, but you're saying. No, you're saying, you're saying he's too good at what he does.

Dan Durkin (25:46)

Like, honestly, like you think about, like this is the thing that I still do struggle with Ryan polls and where he's at. You know, I always say he's done less with more than, than most general managers out there. He's had ample cap space. He's had, you know, high. He's had back to back number one overall picks. They lack blue chip talent. I think Kyler is the closest thing that he has to drafting blue chip talent to this. But now Romo Dunes, they would enter that, that, that list as well. And then you hope Caleb falls into that as well. So I truly think Kyler Gordon is, you know, an exceptional, an exceptional slot cornerback.

Matt Abaticola (26:18)

You know, you talk about drafting and I saw that, that tweet that you posted about that chart about the number of starters on a roster going through all 32 teams and the number of players on the roster that were drafted by that team. The Bears and the Titans are at the bottom at 20. But if you, if you look at it though, Dan, like, what did you conclude from that? Because there are certain contending teams that are down towards the bottom as well. Some really good contending teams with longevity like the Chiefs at the top, the Ravens at the top. What did you conclude? Because there, there are, there are talent teams sprinkled throughout that, that chart.

Dan Durkin (26:50)

Yeah. But if you look at the, the far left, it's all the contenders. It's the Ravens, it's the Bills, you know, it's the teams that you feel like, have the best chance to actually like win you know, in a given season, the Ravens have a down year this year, but, like, historically that those have been the teams that have been contending. What I concluded from that is, is. Is two things. Number one, this team under polls really had never established an identity. And so, like. And I think they're still trying to figure out what their identity is. And so when you see a roster overhaul, I think it's like 50 new faces on this team this year. It's really, like, leading me to believe it's like they never got on the same page about what they wanted to be as an offense, what they wanted to be as a defense. You know, you think about, like, what was the one thing that Eberfluss needed to run his scheme? And it was a three technique, but they chose Darnell right over Jalen Carter, you know what I'm saying? So, like, there were just certain fundamental and foundational decisions that they did or didn't make about, like, the trajectory of the roster that have kind of left them in. In this limbo space. And so I think that for me, it speaks to. You need to draft to an identity that you're trying to build. I think that Ben's dealing with what he has right now, but then defensively, if you can keep Dennis Allen around, what do you need? And what he really needs is, like, guys who can play multiple spots in the defensive line. So now you're seeing that with Shemar Turner. Shemar Turner's playing some Ed, he's playing some tackle. You're seeing Dial kick inside. So I think that you're getting an idea of. They've made a ton of investments in the past on the defensive line. I'm not sure how many of them are perfect fits for what Allen wants to do, but my conclusion was they need to establish an identity and not be so transient with their draft picks and really make sure that when you have those early spots like that, you have to pick a guy that you think is going to be foundational for your team for the next, you know, six, seven, eight years. I think that they've really struggled, you know, in that regard over the past.

Dan Bernstein (28:34)

You know, five, six seasons in the NFL right now. Who's. Who's good? I don't like the idea of power rankings necessarily, but we're at this stage, it happens not every year, but there are certain years where it's okay, we'll know. But if you were to bet on who's going to emerge from. From the Blob. From the Blob, it's A big blob right now. Who's good?

Dan Durkin (28:55)

I hate to say it, guys, but the Chiefs are good.

Dan Bernstein (28:58)

Okay.

Dan Durkin (28:59)

They're good to say it. No, but it seems like such a boring answer. But, like, the Chiefs are good because, like, you know, like, the reason that I say that is you've seen them start in a hole, you know, like, they, they. They were in a must win situation, came out of it with a win. And now you've seen Patrick Mahomes needs to play hero ball. He's the leading rusher on their team. They have no running game whatsoever. He's put the onus on him. And so now you get Rasheed Rice back and you have a little bit of a winning streak. They. They. I was surprised they pounded the lines. I was not expecting that whatsoever. Like, they really took it to the line. So it was a team that I hold in very high regard in terms of, like, you just want to talk about a good team. I think the Lions are a good team also. They pounded them. And so now you have Rasheed Rice coming back. Pat doesn't need to be the superhero that he's been over the last couple of weeks. I think they could take it easy, the Raiders, this weekend. And I think you're going to see, like, a nice trajectory from them in terms of the. The. The nfc. I think the Bucks are really good. They're just hurt. I. That's the thing. Like, Baker Mayfield is playing at an MVP level right now. If you go back. So they lose Mike Evans to a hamstring injury. Chris Godwin's just coming back now. They lost Mecca Buka, it doesn't matter. Like, Baker just finds a way to win everyway. So that. That's a really fun team. I think the Rams are good, too, but Puka Nukua getting hurt, you know, hurts them as well. The Eagles look inherently broken just from an offensive perspective. I think Kevin Petula, their offensive coordinator, is very short for that job. Just, they have no downfield threat whatsoever and say they're not run blocking for Saquon. So I think in the nfc, I really think that the Bucks are a very good team. I think that the Rams are a very good team. I think the Lions are a very good team. But then the afc, I thought for. I'm like, maybe this Chargers thing might be interesting or maybe this Bills thing might be interesting. I don't think so. I think it's still. The Chiefs are kind of going to emerge as like, the best team in the afc. But. But you're right. There's more parody now than ever before. Seeing the Patriots take it to the Bills like they did last week when the Bills had just come off like a disappointing game the previous week, lets me know, like, the Bills aren't what everybody thought they were as well. So really strange league. But guys, if the Bears, like, you know, they have a nice little stretch here, like you could. They'll be in the graphic. They'll be in the in the hunt graphic. What they do with that, though, is going to be really interesting because I don't believe in the packers and the Vikings aren't good. And so I, I really think that the Lions are the cream of the crop in their division. But the Bears can make some noise because they have the easy part of their schedule coming up.

Matt Abaticola (31:19)

All right, final thing for you, Dan. We appreciate all the info and, and your time taking a look at Sunday's game. What do the Bears need to do on Sunday at Soldier Field to stack another win in their win column in.

Dan Bernstein (31:30)

High wind and driving rain? Probably.

Dan Durkin (31:33)

Yeah. So the, the thing that the Saints have really struggled with this year is they give up points or I think they've given up the most first. First quarter points, you know, in the league so far. You got to jump on this team early because Spencer Rattler is not good enough to, to win from a deficit, you know. So I think that they need to really jump on this team early. The Saints were super conservative. I really watched their last game in detail and it looked a lot different than they, their, their first couple games. They were basically throwing horizontal passes to start the season. Just like, you know, sideline passes to Olave and Shahid and Juwan Johnson and saying, please make somebody miss this. They're getting more aggressive. They're a very up tempo offense. So I think the weather will hinder them a little bit because they don't run the ball particularly well. But the Bears need to jump on this team early because they don't play well from a deficit. And that's primarily what they've been doing. The biggest struggle that the Saints have is like the Bears, they get the ball into opponent's territory, but they settle for field goals a lot. And I think that when the team's just not that talented, it's a tough position to be in. So pressure Spencer Rattler early, jump on them early, and then I think more than anything is you're not going to get the turnovers that you do because they're just a little bit more conservative, you know, than other teams that they're going to play, but they should win this game. The Saints are getting a little bit healthier. Chase Young gave a nice little juice to their pass rush last week, so that's one guy for them to, to watch out for. But jump on this team early. Take the, take the, the, the. The air out of the ball. You can take some shots in this team, but if, if the weather doesn't permit that, you really have to attack them like they did last week with the run game. But shots will be there down the field. The outside corners for the Saints are young and they're pretty vulnerable.

Dan Bernstein (33:05)

Dan Durkin, this was great. People can see and read your work at Windy City Gridiron and the Athletic. Thank you so much for joining forward progress. Great catching up.

Matt Abaticola (33:15)

Good seeing you, pal.

Dan Durkin (33:16)

You guys, man, be well. All right.

Matt Abaticola (33:17)

But we'll talk to you, man.

Dan Bernstein (33:18)

That is Dan Durkin. That is hardcore football. So good for the.

Matt Abaticola (33:23)

He's so good.

Dan Bernstein (33:24)

Yeah. I mean it's, it's one thing to get, to get footbally and there's not a lot of jargon in that. That there's a, there's a way of understanding these things where we don't have to sort of go and re. Explain all kinds of stuff. But you. He makes you smarter. Yeah. I've always said, and we've worked with him for years and I've always said that he's the goods. Smart guy that makes you smarter.

Matt Abaticola (33:45)

I have, I have something special for you.

Dan Bernstein (33:47)

You do?

Matt Abaticola (33:47)

Yeah.

Dan Bernstein (33:48)

What?

Matt Abaticola (33:48)

Because I know you're going to talk about beer church.

Dan Bernstein (33:50)

Yeah.

Matt Abaticola (33:54)

You nine out of the top ten saints of all time. I got a little something for you here.

Dan Bernstein (33:58)

I see the light. I see the light. And the light is the light of great Neapolitan style pizza.

Matt Abaticola (34:11)

It's the flame from the.

Dan Bernstein (34:12)

It is from the wood oven. It is from the wood fire kitchen. I see the light. I see the flame in the wood fire kitchen in New Buffalo, Michigan. Oh, you gotta get there. You've gotta get to beer church. You have to open the hymnal and you have to throw yourself upon the mercy of the pizza gods at beer church. I'm telling you, it's a great place to just go enjoy games. The, the whole outdoor patio that they have. The heated outdoor patio. There's never a bad time to go to beer church and it is in New Buffalo. Just a quick trip from Chicagoland, Northwest Indiana. Great for the kids. If you're going to see the fall foliage in all its glory and that whole area of southwest Michigan this weekend, you gotta go and when you stop in, see if you can find John, the owner. Anybody there say, hey, been listening to Forward progress, Go hang out and you can find out all about the pizza school. Also, you've got to get on the schedule if you want to do a party there. Talk to your office about the holiday party, talk to your friends, talk to your fantasy football folks. It could be five people, it could be 300 people. And they will teach you how to make the pizza with their legendary ingredients in their wood fire kitchen. This is how it's done in Italy. And they are very true to how the Napolitan style is supposed to be done. I've done it. I made one of the best pizzas I've ever had. I made it, damn it. And it went in there and it came out and I said, wow, I made this. And it was just sensational. So check them out. Go to beerchurchbrewing.com and they lean into the whole church thing. You are going to Beerchurch and you are going to find the pizza gods and the small batch brew gods there. Try the Pontius Pilate. It's really good. And they bring out the beer sampler in a giant lacquered wooden cross that's got spaces for everything there. And you don't, you don't have to confess. This is all sanctioned by the beer gods at beer church. So go do it. If you. If you want other ideas, other things to do, make sure you get the party planned. Beerchurchbrewing.com and let the pizza party begin in New Buffalo, Michigan. Yeah.

Dan Durkin (36:28)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Bernstein (36:32)

I've seen a light and now I'm hungry. That's gonna do it. For forward progress on this Friday here on 312Sports, Dan Bernstein, Matabatacola. Join us immediately at the conclusion of the Bears and the Saints. We will be live, live post game. Live live post game. I don't know why I'm breaking into Scott's pet shop, but live post game. Live live live post game, post game, post game. Right? But we are gonna be there and we come hang out with us. You talk about fun, whether we're miserable or whether we're happy or whether we're some mix of both. The place to do it is with us on YouTube. You know where to find us. We're gonna be live on YouTube. Forward progress, bears post game. We will talk to you then.

Dan Durkin (37:47)

Down.

Dan Bernstein (37:48)

Don't you wanna go? Don't you wanna go? Don't you wanna go?