ESPN's Kalyn Kahler on Tush Push, CBA and potential lockout, the Chicago Bears stadium drama!

Summary

Forward Progress – A Chicago Bears Podcast

Episode: ESPN's Kalyn Kahler on Tush Push, CBA and potential lockout, the Chicago Bears stadium drama!
Date: March 25, 2026
Host: Dan Bernstein (filling in solo for Matt Abbatacola, who’s on vacation)
Guest: Kalyn Kahler, ESPN Senior NFL Writer

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Episode Overview

This episode brings Kalyn Kahler to the show, joining Dan Bernstein in a wide-ranging conversation that covers some of the hottest ongoing topics in the NFL: the ongoing drama over the “Tush Push” (quarterback sneak) play, looming tensions and a possible NFL officiating lockout around the CBA, and the ever-evolving saga of the Chicago Bears’ stadium. Kahler shares insights from her reporting, experiences at NFL meetings, and what she’s hearing around the league about the Bears’ future both on and off the field.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life on the Road and College Football Team-Building

• Kalyn is reporting from New Orleans, recounting time at Tulane and LSU Pro Days, exploring the emerging role of college football General Managers (GMs) and their approach to roster-building in the transfer portal and NIL era.
  • Retention vs. Recruitment:
    Tulane’s GM values player retention over playing the transfer portal.

    “I think retention is more important than how well you played the portal.” (Kahler, 03:25)

  • Financial Gaps:
    Noted huge discrepancies in NIL payments—schools paying a million+ for QBs compared to Tulane’s whole QB room earning less than a single South Florida starter.

    “He was kind of saying that there is this huge divide between schools that pay a million or more... and schools that are paying in the low hundred thousands...” (Kahler, 04:20)

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2. NFL Owners’ Meetings – Rule Changes and the ‘Tush Push’ Debate

• ‘Tush Push’ (QB sneak with a backfield push):
  • Kahler has closely tracked this controversial play and clarifies it won’t be banned this season.
    • The main concern this year has shifted from player safety to officiating challenges—it’s just too hard to referee.
    • Previous proposals to ban it focused on health/safety, not officiating.
    • Actual play success appears to be fading as teams adapt.
  • Dan’s Analogy:

    “I think of the Tush Push as like your pet—like you have a little...you have some ownership in it.” (Bernstein, 08:51)

  • Kahler’s Take:

    “My pet is not gonna go extinct yet. This is the good news.” (Kahler, 09:06) “Normal quarterback sneaks are more successful than Tush Push now, which is probably true...It would be the exact same play if no one was behind Jalen Hurts.” (Kahler, 14:59)

  • Natural football evolution is making the play less dominant, especially as the Eagles and others lose mastery.
  • The consensus: banning the push wouldn’t solve officiating problems or affect the sneak much.

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3. Looming NFL Officials Lockout & CBA Tensions

• CBA Expiration & Lockout Threat:

  • The officials’ collective bargaining agreement expires May 31.
  • Talks have been slow; the NFL is preparing contingency plans, including recruiting backup officials.
  • Main sticking points: NFL wants a longer probationary period (from 3 to 4 years), shorter offseason "dead period" (to offer more training/availability), greater power over firing and postseason assignments, and bonus allocation only for top performers.
  • Officials’ pay and status (many have established careers outside officiating) complicate moving to full-time.
  • Jeff Miller (NFL Exec):

    “Negotiations are taking longer, aren’t happening as quickly as expected.” (Kahler recounting, 18:26)

• Centralized Mega Replay Center:

  • In the event of a work stoppage, NFL’s Art McNally Game Day Central (AMGC) could be empowered to override any on-field call, not just those currently subject to review.
  • On-field officials’ jobs may be weakened in the long run if centralized review proves effective.

    “If this works too well...then there might be other jobs at stake here.” (Bernstein, 26:46)

• Future of NFL Officiating:

  • Kahler explains why there is no easy fix—most rules or replay change proposals end up flawed or unworkable.
  • Example: Rams’ failed proposal after a critical broadcast-led review last season.

    “There is a very difficult to think you can come in and improve officiating... every idea has some flaw to it.” (Kahler, 29:38)

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4. Chicago Bears – Around the League and the Stadium Saga

• League-wide Perception of Bears:

  • Football side: Extremely positive. Ben Johnson, in particular, is well-respected.

    “In the football conversation, very positive. Everyone...great things about Ben Johnson.” (Kahler, 31:04)

  • Notable behind-the-scenes storyline: some rumored tension between Ben Johnson and Packers’ Matt LaFleur, and that LaFleur is generally “unpopular.”

    “Within the division, I think he [LaFleur] has rubbed some other coaches the wrong way, not just Ben Johnson.” (Kahler, 31:41)

• Stadium Drama:

  • The question of whether the Bears will wind up in Arlington Heights, Indiana, or elsewhere is the top non-football question insiders are asking.
  • Kahler is wary of public posturing:

    “Most of the stuff the team is telling you is probably garbage.” (Bernstein, 32:46)
    “I just have no idea what any of this means because...the media is being used...just being used in a lot of different ways.” (Kahler, 32:49)

  • Predominant league chatter thinks Indiana is likely, comparing it to other teams not in their city, but Bernstein argues Arlington Heights is much more probable, detailing obstacles for an Indiana move (environmental cleanup, lack of entertainment development vs. Arlington’s opportunity).

    “I’ll take all those bets...there’s a lot more about the environmental issues on that [Indiana] site...” (Bernstein, 34:13)

  • The episode delves into legislative maneuvering in Springfield, estate tax implications of ownership succession, and the limits of using private equity to fund the project.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On NFL officiating:

  “I would argue every play in the NFL is hard to officiate. It’s because they’re moving too fast and they’re enormous and it’s chaotic...” (Bernstein, 16:48)

• On the Bears using media for leverage:

  “I don’t even know what to make of any of it because...the media is being used in a lot of different ways.” (Kahler, 32:49)

• On stadium finance math:

  “Why don’t they just sell 10% private equity to have the money to build in Illinois and pay that property tax?”
  “It’s not enough. Because they said two billion for this building here? No way...minimum of like 7 billion.” (Bernstein, 38:20)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Tulane/Pro Days/College GM discussion: 01:25–06:24
• NFL Owners’ Meetings and Tush Push debate: 08:15–16:48
• Officiating, CBA and potential lockout: 16:48–26:46
• Replay Center Proposal & Rule Change Difficulties: 26:39–30:18
• Chicago Bears’ status around the league: 31:04–32:49
• Stadium drama & legislative/ownership complications: 32:49–39:47

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Overall Tone & Style

The tone is informed, humorous, and candid—reflecting Dan Bernstein’s playful cynicism and Kalyn Kahler’s deep sourcing and reporting acumen. Both are forthright about the circus of NFL rule-making, labor relations, and behind-the-scenes power-plays, particularly when it comes to the Bears’ stadium play.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

This episode is a must for anyone who cares about the future of NFL rules, labor relations, and the fate of football in Chicago. It blends on-field evolution (the ‘Tush Push’) with off-field intrigue—from CBA poker to stadium power-plays and real league gossip. The result is equal parts entertainment, analysis, and rumor—just what Chicago (and football) fans crave.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Dan Bernstein]

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[Dan Bernstein]

I mean, if you're a Bears fan, you're thinking Forward Progress. Come on. Forward Progress Chicago Bears podcast with Dan Bernstein and Matt Abeticola on 3one2 Sports. Welcome to Forward Progress. Dan Bernstein solo today with Matt Abaticola on vacation, but I am joined by a familiar face and voice that ESPN senior NFL writer Kalin Kaler with us here on Forward Progress. Kaylin, how you been?

[Kalin Kaler]

I'm doing well. We just talked about this. I'm working remotely from New Orleans. It's beautiful. The weather is great here. I've been to a second line. I've seen the Mardi Gras Indians. I've had a lot of beignets and I promise I am doing work. I went to Tulane Pro Day yesterday and LSU Pro Day the day before it.

[Dan Bernstein]

Any notes from Tulane Pro Day? There's someone in my family that is going to be extremely interested in your thoughts on some of these possible NFL ers.

[Kalin Kaler]

I mean, I think the quarterback probably has a chance to red sloth. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that he's going to be drafted, but I'm. I'm sure he'll end up in a camp and then who knows from there. But you never know what will happen with quarterback. Sort of late, late in the draft and you know, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a late round pick or definitely for him to end up in camp. And one thing that was interesting is I met there Tulane GM because I'm fascinated with college gm so I like beelined right over to him and I was like, hey, tell me about your job. Like, tell me what's going on here. And like it was really interesting because like, what conference are they in? American.

[Dan Bernstein]

The American. And they've got a brand new coach, as you remember, some raw left to go to Florida. So what's his name? Will Hall. Will Hall.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah, he was there too. Nice guy. So what was interesting though is like the GM was kind of explaining to me like his thoughts on team building and he's, he was very much like. Because I was like, well, who do you think the good college GMs are? And he was like, well, I think retention is more important than like how well you played the Portal. So that was an interesting, that was an interesting viewpoint that like, not that I hadn't really. Not that I'd never heard that before, but that was interesting. That's sort of his strategy. And like, can't remember the number he gave me, but he was telling me that they were able to, at. To lean. They're able to retain players pretty well in comparison to other programs, especially in the American Conference. He was saying how, you know, how many players their competitors had lost versus how many they had lost in the Portal. And I can't remember the specific numbers right now because I wasn't taking notes, but it was kind of interesting to hear that. And then he also said that and I, I would not be able to name like who the quarterbacks are there that are competing for the job next year. I have no idea who any of them are, but he was telling me like that their entire quarterback room there were like four or five guys that they have, you know, two who are probably battling it out, but then there's a few more in the room. And he said that their room combined are getting paid less than like South Florida starter. So he was kind of saying that like there is this huge like divide between like schools that pay a million or more for their quarterback and schools that are paying like in the low hundred thousands for their starting quarterback. And he was like, honestly, I just don't think that you have to have a, A, you know, the double, you know, $2 million quarterback to win games. And he was at Houston before. So, like, his record being a GM or like, being on the collector side of things is like, he has a really good. He was like, adding it up in his head, and he's like, I'm 43 and 12. So he has done a good job. Like, he literally did, like, mental math to be like, how good am I? How good have I done when I've been in this role? Because I'm like, how do you evaluate a college GM other than, I guess, wins and losses? And so it was just kind of an Interesting to just be able to pick his brain about, like, what's happening in college football, because I'm sort of fascinated with that because it's a new. It's a new job. Like, this job did not exist before the portal, obviously, or before really nil. So everyone's just kind of figuring it out and sort of inventing the role as they go. So I thought that was really interesting to kind of get his perspective on, like, how much to pay quarterbacks, how to build team, like that kind of thing.

[Dan Bernstein]

Well, I think you're describing how we would judge them. It would be that record up against per dollar.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah, right.

[Dan Bernstein]

If you. If you say, look, I can do more with less here. You can. You don't have to throw around all this collective money. I can spend your money more efficiently. I think that's how a gm, like, a GM in any business, you know, that we can be a very successful business, and I can make sure every. We get the most out of every dollar. Right?

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah. And he was saying too, how, like, they try to keep their coaching staff removed from the money and the financial aspect of it, because he's like, we don't want our coaches to be, like, making decisions on playing time or. Or depth, you know, depth charts based.

[Dan Bernstein]

Welcome to pro sports, baby.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah. Based off of knowing how much they make. So I thought that was kind of interesting too, because that definitely, you know, just in talking to other people at different programs, like, that's definitely something that's happening across all sports in college, where it's like a freshman comes in who's making more than, you know, a junior who's on the roster, and then all of a sudden, the junior doesn't play anymore because the freshman, they need to, like, you know, get the ROI on the freshman more. So that was kind of interesting too. But yeah, so I don't, you know, I don't have a lot of. To Lane player.

[Dan Bernstein]

Yeah, no, I don't. Want to get sidetracked here? Because I know we're here to talk NFL, but, you know, you're in one of my favorite cities in the world. Yeah. And don't. Don't. Just make sure I'll text you after with a couple of restauran recommendations. How many more nights do you have there?

[Kalin Kaler]

I'm here till Sunday morning.

[Dan Bernstein]

Oh, okay. Because there are. There are some places that are absolutely. Can't miss that are kind of off the beaten path, that aren't necessarily the super touristy places.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah, please.

[Dan Bernstein]

So. And because you're. At the moment, you're doing one of my least favorite things in journalism and that is covering meetings.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah.

[Dan Bernstein]

Oh, it's miserable. And I've been. I've been at so many, like the airport hotels and just sitting in ballrooms and eating room temperature chicken fingers.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah.

[Dan Bernstein]

Waiting. Waiting for doors to open so you can find out what you need to find out. So what matters right now is all the NFL cognosity is, is talking things over. What's. What's on the Kaylin Kaler list of what matters.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah. This was actually a pretty boring year when it comes to rules proposals. Like, normally, like, the fun thing about these March meetings is, like, there will be a couple interesting proposals that are either controversial or, you know, are just fascinating in terms of how they're going to change the game. Like, how the game is actually played. A couple years ago was the kickoff. Right. Two years ago, that was the big thing. Okay. They're going to change the whole kickoff formation. Like, what is that going to look like? There's a whole committee of special teams coaches who went to the meetings, and that was sort of the big topic. Last year, the big topic was the tush push, which I covered, which is

[Dan Bernstein]

I, I think of the tush push as like your pet.

[Kalin Kaler]

It is.

[Dan Bernstein]

It's like you have a little. You keep it in a crate, you occasionally will buy it treats. You know, you're gonna walk around the couch every once in a while that it's because then you, You. You have some ownership in it.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah. And. And my pet this year is safe. My pet is not gonna go extinct yet.

[Empower Advertiser]

Good.

[Kalin Kaler]

So this is the good news. And I actually just got off a press conference with the rich McKay, who's in charge of the competition committee, and Jeff Miller, who is a communications guy for the NFL. So they were kind of going over all of these storylines and, and points, and they did get asked about the tush push. I mean, we knew at the combine no one was submitting no club had submitted a proposal like the packers did last year to attempt to eliminate it. But what I will say is I wasn't surprised by that at all. Because during the season, there were a few flashpoints where I thought, oh, oh, it's going to come back again. Because the issue of false starts on the offensive line and offsides on the defensive line was coming up multiple times. It was like week two. Barely any football had been played. Chiefs Eagles were at the Chiefs. And it came up a few times in that game. And it was all. People were really up in arms on Twitter. And I try to keep track of, like, the. The flashpoints of the Tush push. I have a Google Doc where every time I see something, I'm trying to put it in there.

[Dan Bernstein]

You have multiple.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah, so. So I, you know, early in the season, I was like, okay, I think this is going to come back up because it feels like people are still mad about it. And the difference was last year when they brought it up, they did not focus at all on the officiating aspect of the play, of how difficult it is to officiate. They did not. That was not the packers part of their proposal at all. It was all about health and safety and, like, pace of play. It was not about, okay, this is actually a play that's putting our officials. It's setting our officials up for a failure because they cannot see what's going on. And the play itself is so low to the ground, and it's so based off of, like, who's moving first and based off of snap counts. Because earlier in the season, the Eagles were accusing opponents of mimicking Jalen Hurts a snap count, which is a penalty in itself, but it's never called because officials don't have. They can't really hear well enough to be like, this is exactly what's going on here. And the defensive line. Defensive linemen are allowed to use words like move, move.

[Dan Bernstein]

The Bears did that. And Andrew. Andrew Billings, you know, drew a bunch of false starts with that move.

[Kalin Kaler]

Good at that. And it's called stimming on defense. So, like, they're allowed to do stemming. Sorry, not stimming. Stimming is like an autism term, I believe. Stemming. Stemming. Stemming is the football term. It's called stemming on defensive line, where you all of a sudden, as a group, you shift really quickly and you move over. And a lot of times there's like a word associated with. It might be like jump. It might be move. It might be literally shift or whatever. But sometimes those words sound like Your. Your snap count. And so it can be really tricky. Are they crossing a line? Are they not crossing a line? Anyways, it became very clear earlier this season that the Tush push was becoming very difficult for officials to correctly call. And because of that, people were getting mad about it. Coaches were getting mad, fans were getting mad, whatever. So I thought, okay, earlier. Last. Earlier this past season, I was like, all right, this might come up again because. And I thought it might come from the competition committee this time, because this time, if they did focus on the officiating aspect, I actually think they could get that passed because most teams would agree this is really hard to officiate, and then you would probably have the support. Like, I've talked to officials about this. It's difficult for them to see what's going on. And even when they get the point of emphasis from the officiating department of like, hey, you got to call this tight. Which they did last year after. After the Chiefs game, I believe it was in week two, they got a reminder about that. Even when they get a reminder, it's like, it's still really hard for them to properly call this. And it's really not their fault. It's like just an impossible play to officiate. So anyways, I thought maybe the competition committee was going to send something forward, so it wouldn't be from a club. It would just be coming from the competition committee. And they didn't do that last year. And I think the reason they didn't do that last year, what I've heard is that the league didn't really want it to seem like they were targeting one team. Right. Which was the Eagles. And the Eagles were obviously a successful team. Last year, they won the Super Bowl. This year, the Eagles weren't as good. So I think. Think as the season went on, the storyline sort of died down a little bit. And last year, in my reporting as well, it became very clear. I can't really specifically source this, but, like, it became very clear to me that the packers put forth that proposal basically for the league office. Like, the league office was using.

[Dan Bernstein]

They were a proxy. Yes. They said, please do this for us. Yep.

[Kalin Kaler]

Cause it's very well known Goodell does not like the play and like, the competition committee doesn't like the play.

[Dan Bernstein]

Aren't we seeing the game take care of it? Can't we get a little natural evolution in that? Teams are stopping it? Teams aren't as successful. Part of it was, you know, the Eagles are really good. They caught everybody a little off guard. You Might have had one of the greatest centers of all time who was uniquely talented at it. And now, you know that we've seen some variations. I remember Ben Johnson saying, well, I don't like it because we can't have explosives off of it, so I don't use it. And we've. We have seen teams get some explosive plays off some fakes in there.

[Kalin Kaler]

Steelers, yes. At Chicago.

[Dan Bernstein]

Yes, we saw it. And that's exactly what I was thinking. Like, you know, Ben, here it is. But that, you know what that makes it? That makes it just another play. Exactly. And if in fact it recedes into the noise of every other play, then that takes care of it, I think.

[Kalin Kaler]

And I think that's what's happening. Like, it's. The Eagles weren't as successful at it this year. And I think, like, literally on this press conference I was just on, when they were asked about the tush push, I believe they said that the normal quarterback sneaks are more successful than tush push now, which is probably true. I haven't looked at the stats recently enough to, like, fact check that, but, like, that's probably true. And like, the thing that never made sense about this, like, movement to ban this play was that, like, the quarterback sneak would still exist. And the quarterback sneak, like, the Eagles could do a quarterback sneak in the same, like, low, low, low to the ground, almost looks like a rugby scrum. Like, they could do the. Their quarterback sync out of that same position and just not have anyone touch the quarterback. And it would still probably have the same success rate and it would still be incredibly difficult to officiate and people would still be complaining about it. And so it's like taking. Eliminating the push aspect was never actually going to solve anybody's problem here. They were just mad that the one team was nearly automatic on a play that was considered boring. And it would be the exact same play if no one was behind. Jalen Hurts. I mean, maybe you're a couple percentage points less successful, but, like, the majority of the time when you watched it, the person behind was. Is really just there for insurance. Like, he's not. He's not quite there to like, actually send it over for success. So. Yeah, anyways, it's not a talking point this year. It's not up for debate this year. And I do think the natural selection or the natural order of football is. Is going to handle it. And that's how it should be because the game, it should evolve. Offense versus defense, right? Like, it's continually evolving.

[Dan Bernstein]

I. It's the dialectic Right. You know, it's thesis, antithesis, synthesis. And then that. That's. That's how the game should. That's how it's always worked. Now, those of us who have read, you know, was it blood, sweat and chalk and talking about this offense begets this defense, which begets this offense, and then this rules change sort of changes everything, and all these coaches somehow figure it out. It's one of the things we love about the game in that way, but we don't have these sacrosanct rules and, and there, there ways to. To get a leg up now with that. Let me globalize this by talking about officiating in general, because when you say that play is hard to officiate, I would argue every play in the NFL is hard to officiate. Yeah, it's because they're moving too fast and they're enormous and it's chaotic and it's raining and snowing and everything else is going on. But if we're looking potentially at a lockout of officials, am I hearing correctly that there might be a temporary giant mega replay center that could possibly save us from what they believe would be way more bad calls?

[Kalin Kaler]

So it's basically the replay center that already exists. I mean, it is the replay center that already exists. It's just giving them increased power to override a call on the field, basically, you know, without limit, essentially. Like right now, it would have to go to a review, and then, you know, the league office, sometimes the league office can initiate a review, but this would be like any call and there's limits on what they can. Right now. There are limits on the certain penalties.

[Dan Bernstein]

Well, let's go back. Are we going to have a lock? Will there be a lockout?

[Kalin Kaler]

I think there's a good chance. Based off of. I've talked to both sides, like people on both sides of this, and like every person you talk to is going to have a different opinion. But the reality right now is that this CBA expires in a little less, a little over two months, May 31. And the league will tell you we've been trying to get this done for two years. And just today Jeff Miller said it's. The negotiations are taking longer, aren't happening as quickly as expected. I think was his direct quote. And he was asked, like, well, how confident are you that. What. How can you. What would you tell fans about, like, where this is going to go and how confident you are that you're going to come to an agreement? And he didn't issue, like, any really confident proclamation of, like, I know we're going to get this done. All he said was, like, we're willing to work through this. You know, we're. We're at the tape negotiating table. But, I mean, if you just read into the NFL's actions right now, they are taking all the contingency steps that they need to take to prepare for a lockout, which of course they're going to need to do that at this point. Like, if you get within two months of a deal expiring, you need to start thinking about what are the backup plans.

[Dan Bernstein]

Well, it's not just that. It's. It's part of the negotiation. Because I want the. The officials. If I'm the NFL, I want the officials to be like, yeah, you can ask whatever you want, but we can stare into this abyss and not be worried about you not being here. We're going to go about our business. I mean, even if they privately, they're like, oh, God, we can't live without these people. They can't show that at the table right now.

[Kalin Kaler]

It's going to be interesting going into the owner's meetings this week to talk to coaches and general managers and owners about, like, what they think of this, because I think obviously, the NFL's messaging has been very much like, this is on the officials. Like, they're just. They're. They don't want to be better is kind of what their messaging is right now. Because the league has said through Jeff Miller, like, twice in this last week. Now, all we want is for the officials to be accountable. We just want to improve performance and accountability. Those are their talking points. And the specifics of what that means is essentially, they want to be able to increase the probationary period. Right now, it's at three years. So if an official is in their first three years, the league can fire them for no reason, for whatever reason they want to. They don't have to give a reason. They can just say, you're not good enough. You're out of here. The league wants to increase that period to four years. And they claim, oh, this is because we want to actually help them get better for that fourth year. But on the flip side, obviously, the union is going to think, well, that's because you just want a fourth year to be able to fire someone without cause. So that's a sticking point. Another sticking point is the dead period. Right now. The officials, like, aren't able to be contacted by the NFL from the super bowl to, I think it's May 15. The league wants to shorten that dead period. Again, they say because of accountability, they want to offer programs of development to get these officials better, to give them more training. But when you ask them specifically, which I did today, I said, what training program do you plan to fill the dead period with? Like, what is the plan? They won't get into the specifics. Now. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't have specifics, but from my conversations on this, I, I sort of doubt that the league has specific plans on how to make the officials better. I think it's a lot of chatter

[Dan Bernstein]

at the current moment, and full time is. Is not being discussed.

[Kalin Kaler]

It is. And what's interesting, a lot of people don't realize this, the current CBA that they are currently working under, the league has had the ability to make 17 officials full time since that CBA was negotiated, which I think was 2019. So this whole time they could have had 17 full time officials. Not the whole. Obviously that's only, you know, one per crew essentially, but they could have had that. And there was a time, I think it was 2019. I still need to, like, do the research and, like, look this up a little bit more. But multiple people I've spoke to have told me in 2019, the league started to try to make the 17 full time, like right when the CBA began. And then, you know, whatever you want to blame it on Covid happened right after that. The program sort of fell apart because there wasn't enough structure of, like, what are we doing with them full time? So I think I know that that's one of the questions to figure out in this negotiation is like, okay, if you want to make some of them full time, the, the union's willing to do that. The, the officials are willing to do that. Some of them are. But the other, the other thing you have to work out here too is like, most of these officials have very successful careers in other fields. They are making a lot of money in their regular jobs. They're attorneys, they own their own businesses. They. I mean, some of them are like a gym teacher, right? But like, yeah, a lot of them.

[Dan Bernstein]

Some are athletic directors for, you know, or small colleges or high schools or. I mean, yeah, you've got. You get people with, with real lives and work.

[Kalin Kaler]

And so they're basically having like two great salaries right now. And so that, I think, is going to be something that sounds easy to do. Like, yeah, we want to be full time, but also then you're asking them to give up a whole other form stream of income that they already have that. So I think it's, it's going to be, it's harder than it sounds to just be like, okay, we're going to make them all full time. And like the league claims that they have no issue with pay. They're like, we will pay per, we will pay for performance is what Jeff Miller said today. But another issue I think that I've heard is going on is like, obviously NFL officials are paid per game. There's only 20 games, right, like for most of them. So they are making less money than officials in other sports because there's less product of games. But they're working all the, every game like they're at every game. So like there's the argument there of like we are the, the union will say they're the worst paid officials in professional sports. Which is, I'm sure that is true because they have less games. So then you have that issue of like, well, your paper game, there's less inventory. Like, what does that mean? And then also the league I think wants the ability to have like rookie officials work the postseason if, if they think they are good enough. And they just want more flexibility with determining, determining postseason assignments and also determining the bonus pay. Like they only want the bonus pay to go to the highest performing officials, which is obviously something a union is not going to want to agree to. So yeah, I don't know. I mean I, I get the sense if I had to predict, I kind of feel like they are headed to a lockout at this current moment because I know they met last week in D.C. and after they met last week in D.C. is when the NFL started contacting small college officials to see if they could start organizing a backup crew. And after that too is when, you know, this rules proposal comes out. So like, clearly the negotiation last week in D.C. did not get them anywhere. So I mean, I'm sure they have many more coming up. But it'll be really interesting to see what the chatter is about this at the owner's meetings because the other thing is this centralized replay replay idea if they, if they have to resort to this where the, where you know, the AMGC basically can overturn and fix every call from the officials from New York. Which also side note, the people that work in the replay center are part of the NFL RA as well. However, AMGC stands for what Art McNally Game Day Central. It's just the name for the replay room. You know, we're talking about the same thing. It's in the league head, it's in the league's office in New York. So the replay people, the replay officials who work from there, they are part of the NFL Referees association as well. They are part of the union. However, they are cb. They have a different cba, so they're on a different deal because the league wouldn't want both of these entities to be locking out at the same time. So the replay officials will be working no matter what because their CBA is next year. So they'll be working no matter what. And the interesting thing about this that I think is going to come up this week is like, if they have to resort to this, it's almost like, why wouldn't, why wouldn't you just have it all the time?

[Dan Bernstein]

All the time. That was my next question. Like, if this works too well.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah.

[Dan Bernstein]

Then. Then there might be other jobs at stake here. Yeah.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah. So it's like, I mean, there. I still think they're going to need on field, on field officials no matter what. But that responsibility may be, you know, weakened, lessened, whatever. But I do think that's going to be something. That's an interesting point is like, I think that's going to be an idea that's popular among owners because I know that there are owners who are very frustrated with officiating. I've heard that from executives who like.

[Dan Bernstein]

We all are. We all are. It's bad for the game to not know if what you saw happened or not. When you're holding. It's like, that was an awesome play. Oh my. Is it real? Did it happen? Are there flags? Is there a challenge like that? It changes the nature of the consumption of the game to have this delay between celebration and then, oh, either it unhappened or it has to be confirmed that it happened.

[Kalin Kaler]

And even. And it's just, it's so hard because there's no, there's really no good solution to any of it, to be honest. Because like a great example is the Rams submitted two proposals or they intended to submit two rules.

[Dan Bernstein]

Was this about the, the Zach Charbonnet two point conversion where it was the broadcast that saw it and then that got down to the. Okay. Because that was wild.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah. And so they were obviously pissed off about that because that basically cost them a, a chance to go to the Super Bowl. So they submitted two proposals based off of that and. Well, no, that was a, that was the other Seahawks Rams game. I'm sorry. But it was still very, very pivotal to their season. They submitted two proposals or intended to submit two proposals based off of that. One was about making a 40 second clock where within the 40 seconds after the play, you would need to initiate a replay review. And if you hadn't, you couldn't after that point because that was their issue with that is it took way too long for the review to be initiated because as you mentioned, the broadcast had to alert the NFL that like, oh, this should be reviewed. Like, what are we doing here? And then the second was about. The touching was about 8. I'm gonna butcher this like a backward pass. And how it should be brought to the point where it was thrown instead. Instead of the point where it was touched on the field.

[Dan Bernstein]

Okay.

[Kalin Kaler]

Or recovered. It should just be like, it should just go back to the point where the ball left the quarterback's hands. And then they didn't. But they didn't think that one through because it was like, well, what would happen if a snap went through the quarterback's hands? And then. And then it's behind you. And then removing the whole play behind instead of. I don't know. So they didn't. Okay, like, again, I'm kind of butchering that one. But they didn't. The point here is that they intended to submit these two and they didn't even end up. They withdrew both of them because they basically realized, like, neither of these proposals actually make sense and there's holes in all of these proposals.

[Dan Bernstein]

It does not make sense.

[Kalin Kaler]

Like, we rescinded. There may be a solution to that, that specific issue, but they hadn't actually figured it out yet. And so. Because there were holes in both of those proposals. Because if you, you know, because then on the flip side, it's like, well, someone else is going to get mad when something should have been reviewed and it wasn't because it was 45 seconds later instead of 40. Right. Like, no one. They were not going to get clubs to all agree to that because there's clearly issues with both of those proposals. So it's like there is. It is a very difficult to think you can come in and improve officiating. And a lot of people have ideas, but, like, it seems just like every idea has, like some flaw to it.

[Dan Bernstein]

So here's what I want to know. What I do know about covering meetings is that there's. Because of the downtime that you have and because of the keen eye of good reporters like you seeing somebody out of the corner of your eye and going, oh, look who's wandering around here. Yeah, look who's in line for a cup of coffee or look who's just sitting in the front not talking to anybody, that there's opportunities that you don't even know to find out things. What is being said about the Bears? You don't have to put names on this, but I just want some blind items here. What good stuff, bad stuff. Where are the Bears? In the. In the conversation, in the chatter.

[Kalin Kaler]

In the football conversation. Very positive. Like, really positive. Everyone. I mean, great things about Ben Johnson. He's widely respected. That's not a surprise to anyone around the NFL. Like, you know, that is. That is really positive. I think the one thing I've heard is like, his rivalry with Matt lafor is. Is. Is some chatter of like, what went on there. Did. Right. No one knows. Yeah, nobody knows. So I still don't know. I still have not uncovered, like any sort of specific instance between them or, you know, specific beef or anything.

[Dan Bernstein]

But it's like a wrestling bit. Seriously.

[Kalin Kaler]

And. Yeah, yeah. But I do think that, like, Matt LeFleur is sort of unpopular in general. So now I don't know, but I don't know specifically why between Ben Johnson and Matt LaFleur, but I do think that, like, within the division, I think he has rubbed some other coaches the wrong way, not just Ben Johnson. So that's kind of interesting. And then, yes, from a football sense, I think everyone is very positive about Chicago. And I would say. But from a off the field sense, the stadium stuff is a topic of conversation, for sure. Like when I was at the combine, and I mean, like, if you're meeting someone new or if they. They just know you're from Chicago, like, what do you think the Bears are like, what do you think's gonna happen with the stadium? Like, what do you think's going on? And I'm like, I. It's another one where I'm like, I can't even predict what's going to happen here because I feel like things that I've been told, like, from the team or from people around the team, most

[Dan Bernstein]

of the stuff that. Most of the stuff the team is telling you is probably garbage.

[Kalin Kaler]

Exactly. And I'm like, I don't even know what to make. Make of any of it because you just know that, like, the media is being used in this, as in most situations. Like, we are being used in a lot of different ways. And it's like, I'm aware of that, but I also am like, well, I just have no idea what any of this means because I don't know what I mean. The Bears end goal is to get the best deal, obviously. Like, they want to get the best stadium deal. And I think if that's in Illinois, that's better than if it's in Indiana. But I don't think, you know, I think they're just gonna. They're gonna take whatever deal makes the most sense to them. So I'm, like, very cognizant that, like, anything I'm hearing about this, I'm like, I'm not even gonna. I haven't tweeted, like, anything because I'm just like, I don't. I'm so aware that none of this is real and I'm just being used. So I'm like, I'm not gonna do anything. But I will say there is a lot of interest league wide about, like, what are the Bears gonna do here? And I think a lot of people. Well, I don't know. I think majority of the conversations that I've had have been very much like, they're going to Indiana because it's going to be the better deal. And a lot of comparisons made between, obviously, the Giants, jets in East Rutherford. That's not New York, it's New Jersey. The Niners in Santa Clara. That is not San Francisco. It's actually quite far from San Francisco.

[Dan Bernstein]

Yeah, I'll take all those bets. I'll take all those bets. And if anybody thinks they're going Indiana, there's. They're going to have to know a lot more about the environmental issues on that site and going to learn about the. The super Fund and what it's going to take to clean up that entire area before it's ready to have a stadium there.

[Kalin Kaler]

Really? Okay. I mean, you know, a lot. Yeah. You know, a lot more. But, yeah, there is a lot of. I mean, there's a lot of questions of, like, what are they? And, you know, what's interesting is, like, George McCaskey theoretically will be at the owner's meetings. In theory, he's usually always there. And, you know, will he say anything? Is the other question. I did actually see him at the combine, and I said, are you going to talk about this at owners meetings? Like, we haven't heard from you. Because that's the thing I think I'm interested in. We've heard from Kevin Warren's statements. Right. Multiple statements from Kevin Warren, which have had some interesting, strange timing that.

[Dan Bernstein]

And a lot of it's just complete horseshit.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yes. And, yeah. So I asked George, I was like, are we going to hear from you at the owner's meetings? And he was like, I don't know. I'm not sure. We'll have a resolution by then. So it sounded like to me he probably wasn't going to say anything because I don't think he's going to say

[Dan Bernstein]

anything until no, it's a big week in Springfield because you the legislature's in session. They're dealing with a lot of stuff. Pritzker spoke yesterday and if you read Pritzker's comments from yesterday where it seems like he kind of punted it to the leadership in the legislature that there's a question about whether or not the Bears could be entitled to both a pilot program, the payment in lieu of taxes and the snap arrangement for how the bonds would be paid. And they don't really want them to double dip and they want more local control in there. But I think it's probably closer than they're letting on. But it may just have to wait until, until May and they're not going to get it as soon as they want. But I think, you know, I believe tomorrow might be the last chance to move anything actually down in Springfield. So we're all kind of, we're all kind of waiting on that to see if they're good. I don't think they're going to hurry anything through. But it to me, based on everything I'm reading that's coming out of Springfield, that there's, there's, there haven't been any major impediments in the move toward getting them to Arlington Heights.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah. And I will say too, like one thing that's come up with just people around the league who bring this up is, you know, they've, they've wondered why don't the Bears like they're going to have the what when, when an owner, when the controlling owner passes, there's the estate tax issue that comes up. So I've heard people bring that up and I honestly don't have a good enough understanding of exactly what it means. But I do know Mark Davis, the Raiders when this happened. His mother, Carol, I believe her name was, she died recently and that affected their estate tax. And he had to take on several new partners to I think because of that, he had to take on several new partners, Tom Brady. And then I think there were three other minority owners that he added into the ownership stakes. And so I, I don't know the Bears current breakdown of like if they can take on more minority partners and still maintain the McCaskey, still maintain controlling stakes in the team.

[Dan Bernstein]

Well, there's all I mean, when you're talking about the, the McKenna shares and the Pat Ryan Shares.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah.

[Dan Bernstein]

That they. It's. I wouldn't say it's messy, but I would say it's complicated.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah.

[Dan Bernstein]

Because the rules now of allowing. What was it, 10% private equity.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah.

[Dan Bernstein]

And to say that, look, if you needed that money to help build a stadium. But that's. It wasn't even enough to change the stadium math.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah. That.

[Dan Bernstein]

I know that. That whatever. Whatever that influx is wasn't enough to really move the needle.

[Kalin Kaler]

That's what I wondered for a while. I was like, why don't they just sell 10% private equity to have the money to build in Illinois and pay that property tax?

[Dan Bernstein]

It's not enough.

[Kalin Kaler]

Interesting.

[Dan Bernstein]

It's not enough because. Because they're. They said 2 billion for this building here. No way. No way. With the material costs now and. And with where they're. I know the Pritzker's office was looking at the project in Arlington Heights. They were looking at a minimum of like 7 billion. Wow. With all the stuff. And then what? They're going to parcel out for their own property tax purpose reasons that the Bears might have all the land and then piecemeal it off to change some of the tax responsibilities in what they're going to do around the stadium. And they can't do any of that in Indiana. None of that. That is just a building and some parking. That is not their whole entertainment district, which is where you got to make the money. Anyway. Anyway, I know you got to go. Thank you for sticking around and thanks for doing this today. Thank you for being generous with your time and sharing all that fun stuff. I will text you New Orleans restaurants, because there's a couple of can't miss places I got in there. I'll just tell you Sophia for Italian, it's a little further out of downtown, but Sophia is absolutely wonderful. There is in. In closer to where you are. Pesh.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah, I'm going there. Going there tomorrow.

[Dan Bernstein]

It's great.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yeah, it's.

[Dan Bernstein]

It's absolutely. It's. It's phenomenal. Pesh is great. And the other one is Koshan.

[Kalin Kaler]

Yes.

[Dan Bernstein]

C O, C H O N. Yeah,

[Kalin Kaler]

I went to their lunch deli, but I haven't been to their restaurant. No, there.

[Dan Bernstein]

It's. There's a rabbit. Oh, my God. I don't know how adventurous an eater you are.

[Kalin Kaler]

I like rabbit. Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan Bernstein]

They do this rabbit and dumpling thing that's included.

[Kalin Kaler]

Incredible.

[Dan Bernstein]

So. Yes. Enjoy.

[Kalin Kaler]

Cool. Thanks, Dan.

[Dan Bernstein]

Thanks for joining us. Bye. That is Kaylin Kaler of espn, their senior NFL writer. That stuff about Matt Leflore is pretty juicy right there. That's a. That's a nice little nugget. Thank you for joining us. That is Forward Progress, a Chicago Bears and NFL podcast. And I'm Dan Burnsty. We'll catch you tomorrow. Forward Progress is stopped. Forward Progress, a Chicago Bears podcast with Dan Bernstein and Matt Abaticola on 312 Sports.

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[Kalin Kaler]

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