← Forward Progress - A Chicago Bears Podcast
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- [00:01]
Sleep Number Advertiser
Why choose a sleep number Smart bed.
- [00:02]
Blue Apron Advertiser
Can I make my site softer?
- [00:04]
Experian Advertiser
Can I make my site firmer?
- [00:05]
Dan Bernstein
Can we sleep cooler?
- [00:07]
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- [00:32]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
Several homes in the suburb of Northwood had the most beautiful landscaping.
- [00:36]
Blue Apron Advertiser
Such perfection.
- [00:37]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
The neighbor responsible retiree Arvin Shreve.
- [00:40]
Gardens of Evil Survivor
It reminded me of Mr. Rogers.
- [00:42]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
But Arvin hid a dark secret. My mom took me to this house.
- [00:45]
Patrick Finley
And then I never lived with her again.
- [00:47]
Gardens of Evil Survivor
Arvin's message was I have a key to get you into heaven.
- [00:50]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
Gardens of Evil is the unbelievable story of the Zion Society cult told by those who lived it. Find Gardens of Evil inside the Zion Society cult wherever you listen to podcasts 10 219.
- [01:04]
Patrick Finley
219.
- [01:09]
Matt Abeticola
Forward progress a Chicago Bears podcast with Dan Bernstein and Matt Abeticola on 312 Sports.
- [01:20]
Dan Bernstein
We give you forward progress on 312 sports a Chicago Bears podcast. We are brought to you by Beer, Church Brewing, New Buffaloes Brewery Pizzeria and a historic church wood fired Neapolit pizza, small batch craft beer and brunch every day. Visit beerchurchbrewing.com and Talking Bears. With us today is Patrick Finley, Chicago Bears reporter for the Chicago Sun Times and co host of the Hallas Intrigue podcast. And we're happy to have him here. Thanks for joining us today Patrick. Appreciate you taking the time.
- [01:55]
Patrick Finley
Hey, of course. How are you guys?
- [01:56]
Dan Bernstein
We're good man.
- [01:57]
Matt Abeticola
It's good to see you. It's been been some time so it's great to catch up with you, man. I appreciate you doing this.
- [02:03]
Patrick Finley
It's, it's fun that the Bears are doing something interesting that's not dismantling the club or, or having some sort of terrible thing going on.
- [02:12]
Matt Abeticola
Yeah. So that, that signing of, of C.J. gardner Johnson, he has a little bit of a history with the Chicago Bears and he's had some, some travels in his six, seven, eight year career wherever he's been. What do you think of, of the signing? I obviously out of necessity, but how do you think this could possibly impact a locker room right now that seems like it's doing well and is currently 4 and 3?
- [02:35]
Patrick Finley
I think it's a little Desperate, obviously. You know, they've lost so many cornerbacks that they need to go find talent somewhere. Somewhere. And the reason that C.J. gardner Johnson is available is because he's difficult. You know, he's a guy who, what, since March, he's been traded once and cut twice. And that's not because of his skill level. It's because he wants to play. And when he doesn't play, I think he pitches. He has a tendency to pitch a fit. At least it'll be interesting to see how he fits into this locker room. You've got a team that is among the worst in the league in terms of penalties. You have a new head coach. Those are two places where you'd think he wouldn't be a great fit. But, you know, Matt or Dennis Allen was his coordinator in New Orleans for three years. Ben Johnson was in Detroit for a season with him. So they say they think it'll work. We'll see. I, I, I'm expecting maybe not the best ending here. One way or the other, they're gonna get, because they're gonna get Kyler Gordon back in a month, and then I don't know what you're gonna do with this guy, you know, if he stays on the straight and narrow, you know, he can help, and maybe he can stick around and help afterwards. But, you know, as we sit here right now, the Bears, two safeties are healthy. They're two of their better defenders, and so he's not going to play on merit if Kyler Gordon gets back and can go.
- [03:57]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
Northwood was a quiet, idyllic American suburb. But the beautiful landscaping hid a dark secret.
- [04:03]
Patrick Finley
The horror that happened inside those homes.
- [04:05]
Blue Apron Advertiser
Was such a pretty facade, it just didn't make sense.
- [04:08]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
The immaculate yards were designed by retired landscaper Arvin Shreve.
- [04:12]
Gardens of Evil Survivor
It reminded me of Mr. Rogers.
- [04:14]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
But Arvin was not who he appeared to be.
- [04:17]
Patrick Finley
He's proclaiming to be a prophet.
- [04:19]
Gardens of Evil Survivor
Arvin's message was, if you do all these things for me sexually, then I have key to get you into heaven.
- [04:24]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
My mom took me to this house.
- [04:25]
Dan Bernstein
And then I never lived with her again.
- [04:27]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
My podcast, Gardens of Evil, tells the unbelievable story of the Zion Society cult and an investigator who rescued dozens of children from the clutches of a predator. It reveals tactics used by abusers like Arvin or anyone who manipulates for their own selfish ends. And it's the story of resilient survivors who are finding ways to heal three decades later.
- [04:47]
Gardens of Evil Survivor
Forgive yourself, Keep moving forward. You didn't know any better.
- [04:51]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
Find Gardens of Evil inside the Zion Society, Cult. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you know.
- [04:58]
Dan Bernstein
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- [06:25]
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- [06:53]
Patrick Finley
Experian.
- [06:56]
Dan Bernstein
We are going to ride the roller coaster for another week with Caleb Williams. And part of that is on us, that it's our projections, it's our reactions. And my question to you is, how well does the whole Caleb Williams, the imposition of our rubric on him, how we grade him, how much does that sync up with how he's actually being graded internally? What's real when it comes to not just his development, but the timeline for his development? Are they seeing what we see in the way that we see it?
- [07:39]
Patrick Finley
Maybe not with the emotion that we see it. You know, I think that I, I honestly feel bad for any quarterback who has stepped into Chicago and is expected to be the first good quarterback they've had in 105 years. It's just a lot of pressure. And I think the fan base lives and dies, not only game by game, but quarter by quarter. And I don't think that's a healthy environment for anybody to try to succeed in. Now, when he throws an interception to somebody who was covered well and has a safety over the top, when the Bears have a chance to take a lead in a game that they need to win, the coaching staff sees that certainly the same way the fans do. When he struggles to get going, they talk about, well, once we get a first down, we're in business. Okay, great, let's get a first down. And when he. When he fails to kind of create his own spark there, that's something the coaching staff sees just as well as we do. But they know that this is going to take a little bit of time. And I'm not sure that the fan base, maybe the fan base can intellectualize that. It takes time, but that's hard to explain at the end of every game on Sundays. So they see the mistakes that we see. I. I think they see the growth that we see. But they know that, you know, I've been of the belief that if they knew by the end of the season that he is a keeper and somebody you can. That who can be here for the next five to seven years, that would be a tremendous success, regardless of record. And I still do believe that. I don't know a lot of Bears fans who would agree with me when I say that.
- [09:05]
Matt Abeticola
All right, so, Caleb, this is.
- [09:07]
Dan Bernstein
This.
- [09:07]
Matt Abeticola
This is a hard question, Pat. How has he grown and what have you seen? From the first day that he came into Hallis hall to where. Where he is now, he's had an off season and a half. He's had two training camps to get through. I know two head coaches, multiple offensive coordinators. But how has he grown from day one to where he is now?
- [09:30]
Patrick Finley
Boy, that's. That is a tough question. I think that he is comfortable in an NFL offense in a way that he wasn't even at the end of last year. Now, we can sit here and watch him throw the two balls out of bounds on Sunday and sit there and go, how is that guy comfortable? But I do think that more often than not, maybe the preponderance of the time, you know, he drops back there. I think he. I think he looks like somebody who has been well coached, and that was not the case last year. I think the flash plays are there. There were three or four Balls he threw the other day that honestly five guys on the planet could probably do and boy, that makes you fall in love with them. But then he, yeah, there are basics that he still hasn't. Hasn't mastered. I think that his ability to stay healthy is certainly something that is valuable. I think this season his ability to, to avoid sacks is a tremendous step forward from what was going on the other day and, or the or last year and is a credit to both Ben Johnson and him now. Statistically, he's not spectacular. I can't sit here with a straight face and make an argument with you that he is growing by leaps and bounds, you know, every other game because he's not. It's really just up and down and up and down almost consistently. And that's. I understand how that can get frustrating both for the people inside the building and the people outside it.
- [10:51]
Dan Bernstein
So have we moved the goalpost though? Is to what extent is greatness transcendent play from a guy? Number one overall pick. Is that now off the table?
- [11:04]
Patrick Finley
No.
- [11:05]
Dan Bernstein
Are we slowly downsizing expectations or like.
- [11:09]
Patrick Finley
Or what?
- [11:11]
Dan Bernstein
The soft influence of lowered expectations.
- [11:16]
Patrick Finley
Is that A George, George H.W. bush line? Was that his. Somebody used that line?
- [11:21]
Dan Bernstein
No, I'm actually, I was trying to try to take the sting out of it because I believe that the term is the soft. Racism, bigotry.
- [11:32]
Patrick Finley
I haven't moved the goal post, but I think inside Alice Hall, I mean, if he won a playoff game, that'd be the best thing to happen inside Hallis hall in the generation. And I don't think that that's a lofty goal for somebody who you build your team around. So in that sense, maybe, but I have, I think he still needs to be the best quarterback in his own draft. And that's not happening.
- [11:58]
Dan Bernstein
Right.
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Patrick Finley
Third or fourth, depending on what you think about Bo Nix.
- [12:01]
Matt Abeticola
Yeah.
- [12:01]
Patrick Finley
You know, and you know, I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of this four year rookie contract that, you know, Caleb could be up there. I think that's still completely on the table, but, you know, he needs to be the reason why they win games. Let's start there. And that has not been the case this season. You know, when you get, you know, when you're getting three or four takeaways a game and you're just, you know, hanging on to beat the New Orleans Saints and the Las Vegas Raiders of the world, that's not what the Bears are looking for. The Bears need to stomp those guys and Caleb Williams needs to be the reason why they do it. We haven't seen it yet.
- [12:34]
Matt Abeticola
Why does this team in this offense struggle beyond scripted plays?
- [12:42]
Patrick Finley
That's a wonderful question. I think that Caleb has struggled this year in deciding whether to tuck the ball or whether to throw on broken plays. I think when he throws on broken plays, that's the thing he does best in the world. And I would suggest that he lean into that, but especially in the red zone. And for me it comes down to the red zone more than anything else. He's not decisive enough. You go to the first drive they had in the red zone all season. They're playing against Minnesota and it's third and goal at the six, I believe. And he takes off and runs to the front left pylon and scores. Okay, that was easy. And he hasn't really done that since. I think they need him to be able to use his legs when he gets outside. And they need to, you know, they need to find a receiver not named Roma Dunes who they can throw to down there. And is that Colston Loveland? Maybe. Is it Cole Kit? If he's healthy? Maybe, you know, is there a way to get the ball in the DJ Moore's hands that that makes sense in the red zone? Because I think him in the open field is a really good weapon. But when you're down tight there, that doesn't really work. You know, they need to turn these threes into sevens and I think, you know, that falls on to Caleb more than anybody. But it's also a personnel issue. They also need guys who can win their one on one matchups.
- [14:03]
Dan Bernstein
Maybe you've asked about this and perhaps I've just missed it in the Ben Johnson era, but what do we know about their scramble rules? What do we know about what Ben Johnson wants them to do when a play breaks down to give them some sense of structure amid chaos?
- [14:26]
Patrick Finley
We know that one of the things they looked at during the bye week was how attentive their receivers had been to the scramble rules. And they decided that they had not been attentive enough. Now what the exact rules are, I don't think anybody's asked him, but generally it has come back to the ball. Go toward the sideline and make sure that you were on a different level than another receiver who is doing the same thing. So that, you know, I think we saw some improvement last week, particularly in the first half, but against the Saints it still looked broken. And that's too bad because that was something that they had focused on for, for the buy and leading up to that Saints game, you know, you go.
- [15:02]
Matt Abeticola
Back to Rome real quick and talk about how he's been targeted a lot by, by Caleb. And Ben talked about that yesterday when you guys all met with him. And he, he mentioned how Rome is generally the primary guy in a lot of those, those play calls and it's on him to maybe get other guys to be primary. Is, is Ben being truthful on that or is he really trying to help his quarterback out a little bit in the media that he just. He looks at Rome and looks at Rome only.
- [15:30]
Patrick Finley
You know what? I asked him that question because I'm working on something about exactly that. And I think Rome is 16th in the NFL in target share, which means that, you know, he gets a pretty good percentage of the ball stone his way. And, you know, you compare that with Jamar Chase, who, what, every pass the Bengals throw goes in his direction and it doesn't seem so bad. But, you know, the good news with Rome is there's a chemistry there with Caleb. I mean, we've been begging for this for since what? Did Justin ever have this? He didn't. Did Mitch ever have this? He didn't. Maybe with Alan Robinson every once in a while, but this is good news. But, you know, at some point you have to wonder whether he locks in too much. That, you know, interception the other day being a prime example of that. What Ben said was that as a play caller, he has different receivers or tight ends as the primary on different plays and that before every Sunday he sits down and makes sure that it's relatively balanced, is that DJ is the primary on a certain number and, you know, maybe Loveland on a certain number and Rome on a certain number and it. And it's on him to make sure that he calls the plays. So it's not always Rome. I think that was him deflecting a little bit from his quarterback. But, you know, I do think that there is some truth there that, you know, that, you know, if, you know, Caleb's not getting to the third and fourth read very, very often, that needs to get better. But, you know, so whatever Ben calls, you know, if you're the first or second read, you know, there needs to be a balance there where it's more than just Roma dunes.
- [16:57]
Dan Bernstein
I've talked about this throughout the year and maybe I'm alone on this island of wanting the Bears to show more of a commitment to being a wide zone run and everything that comes with that commitment. I understand that they're also going to run gap schemes, that there's going to be some power football in there we've seen the tight end motion in and out of an H, back hand on the ground I formation. So there's. It still seems like there's a lot in there and a lot of possibilities which isn't itself bad, but the best way to. To run outside zone and everything off of it like we did in the first couple series of the last game with all of those boot actions, with all of those weak side responses, is to make that more of a cultural shift than it is just a play call. Particularly because of what Drew Dahlman is really good at and how they can run things to the side to Darnell Wright in that way. It's okay to be a right handed zone team. Is that just not what Johnson does because of his desire to show so many different looks?
- [18:11]
Patrick Finley
I don't think that. I think that he is agnostic in terms of he. He's a fan of whatever works. And you know, you're right that using Darnell Wright's athleticism is a wonderful idea.
- [18:24]
Dan Bernstein
That you could run over him every time.
- [18:26]
Patrick Finley
Yes, you could. And even Comet, you know, and we can say what we will about Komet. Komet is a willing run blocker and I think you felt his absence the other day, particularly when you're using a backup tackle at fullback and going in motion, things like that. Yeah, I think he could do that more. Where I get my issue is I think you need to be able to run power in the red zone. And I think that they need to be able to get more efficient at that. You know, some of that is is scheme, Some of that is blocking. Some of that is Caleb carrying out a run fake and in a way that keeps everybody honest. Because I don't know whether you've seen those, they're not particularly good.
- [19:07]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
No.
- [19:08]
Dan Bernstein
His sleight of hand is rudimentary at this stage. He's not advanced when it comes to moving and hiding the ball.
- [19:16]
Patrick Finley
And remember, the whole reason that they decided that they were going to put Caleb under center when Ben Johnson got here was that Ben's belief is that when the quarterback turns his back to the linebackers, it's a better fake. Whether it's a good fake or not, you know, it holds them in a way that a shotgun fake does not. So we need Caleb to get better at that. I think. I think you make a good point on the outside run, but again, I think you need to get hard yards. And the Bears, I think are proving week in and week out that they're not very good at that.
- [19:45]
Dan Bernstein
Are there Guards athletic enough in the power game. I mean, as, as, as good as Tuney has been, as solid as he is a pass protector and as responsible as he is, did have the ability to get a move guy in some of the power stuff.
- [20:03]
Patrick Finley
I think they do remember, I mean, I mean, Joe Tunis, one of the best, what, 10 guards in the league probably. And you know, from the people I know who know football better than I do, they don't believe that he's fault that he's fallen off one bit this season. And then your other guard was a Pro Bowler in Ben Johnson's system. So I, I do think that they're athletic enough to be able to do it. We can talk about left tackle. That, to me, is the one problem in the group there. And, you know, you have to wonder whether Theo Benedict's violence as a run blocker makes up for the fact that, you know, he's going to get beat on, on passing downs. But, yeah, I think they have the pieces there. And that sounds crazy to say because what's the last time we could say that around here? I think most of their online is better than average. And my God, there were years where we would have settled for most of them being below average, and it still would have been an upgrade.
- [20:54]
Matt Abeticola
So earlier this week, Ben Johnson issued a code red, told the team leaders to clean up the penalties and all the mistakes and get things right in the, in the locker room for this, this game against the Bengals. Who are the identified team leaders outside of the, of the captains?
- [21:10]
Patrick Finley
Oh, outside of the captains. That's. That's a good question. I mean, I think, you know, you've got the Kevin Byards of the world who I think is unquestioned, unquestionably, probably the most respected guy in the locker room here. I think Cole Comet works there. Joe Tooney is not a vocal person. Joe Tunney is certainly is not vocal with the media, but he is in that group as well. DeAndre Swift, I think, would surprise you in terms of the, you know, his ability to, to motivate his teammates because he's one of those guys that, you know, does not put that out there for the world to see. So I think that's part of it. But, you know, I got the impression with Ben that, you know, after months of begging his team to stop this and, you know, doing it through the media and behind closed doors, that there was very much the vibe of a parent being like, all right, you guys just got to figure it out then. Like, it's just, you know, I'm tired of screaming at you to clean up your room. Just, just, just go do it and maybe that'll work. But again, you know, you send that message about how important leadership is and then you, you sign CJ Gardner Johnson and come out and say nothing's more important than the locker room.
- [22:18]
Matt Abeticola
That's what we talked about yesterday.
- [22:19]
Dan Bernstein
Yes, yesterday. It's like discipline, self control. And here's C.J. gardner Johnson.
- [22:26]
Patrick Finley
I mean he was ejected from a game last year. Yeah, it's, yeah. And you know, Ben says yesterday, well, nothing's more important than our locker room. And you know, okay, you know, actions speak louder than words sometimes. And maybe Garner Johnson is going to fit in well here. Maybe, you know, having veteran leaders around is going to help him. But you know, I mean, he came from the Eagles last year which was nothing but veteran guys and a really good second year defensive tackle and he seemed to, that seemed to work out okay.
- [22:58]
Dan Bernstein
Where is Ryan poles in the equation at the moment once the season begins. And he, if they're everybody's true to their word polls is not micromanaging the roster at this point. It belongs to the coaches. They are making their decisions regardless of draft pedigree, regardless of size of contract. And we can all believe that to be true to whatever extent we want. What's the read that you get about what we believe is an increasing influence by the coaching staff over the, the, the, the shape and nature of the roster?
- [23:38]
Patrick Finley
Yeah, I mean, I think that's true that it's an increasing influence of the head coach for sure. And you know, and in the case of Gardner Johnson, I'm sure Ben is talking to Dennis Allen and I'm sure Ryan is talking to both of those guys about, okay, you know, are we going to do this? I think Pulls, you know, the trade deadlines next week. You know, Pulse is the general manager of the team. He is going to have his say in everything. But I don't think it's just his voice anymore. And you could argue that that's the way the modern NFL has worked for the last 20 years and good for the Bears for catching up. You could argue that, you know, he, that Ben Johnson is making what he's making in part because he carries influence and gets a vote here in a way that Matty Berflus never did. I think both of those things are good things. But you know, Ryan pulls, you know, it's not like Ryan pulls, you know, is taking his hand off the wheel and it's just letting Ben steer here. I think it's it's as much of a partnership as you can have there. Now.
- [24:36]
Matt Abeticola
If Ben had influence on bringing CJ Gardner Johnson in, and you look at Dennis Allen, his time with them, and, you know, Ben was there in Detroit. What did you hear when Ben was talking about it? Like, what did you hear between the lines? Because it didn't sound like a full fledged endorsement or I pushed for this. You know, it was like, oh, in Detroit, he was on IR for a while and you know, D A, D A had him for a while, but it was a while ago. And like, what, what did you walk away with as far as an endorsement level from, from the head coach?
- [25:03]
Patrick Finley
I mean, he said he thinks it's a good fit. Okay. I mean, and we had asked about his time in Detroit and he said, well, you know, he's hurt a lot. Like, yeah, that's probably not. Like you said, that's probably not the vibe that they should be putting out there. Ben should probably say, you know, you know, what he thought of the guy. I thought it was very telling that Kevin Byard, who again, most respected guy in the locker room, he's probably, there's probably a big gap between him and number two, said yesterday, well, you know, you know, Dennis Rodman with the, with the Bulls was pretty good. Like, like he just admitted, all right, this guy's, this guy's probably a little nutty, but sometimes that works out and sometimes you need one of those guys. Now in, in the NBA, and I'm sure you guys have heard this, the old saying in the NBA is you can have one crazy guy, you can't have two, right? I'm curious how many an NFL locker room can have, because at least on the field, I think we've seen Jaquan Brisker play with that hair on fire mentality that, that usually serves him well and sometimes does not. And if the two of them egg each other on, I don't know whether that's one crazy guy too many.
- [26:12]
Matt Abeticola
Well, that's a job that, that's in place for Kevin Byard.
- [26:15]
Patrick Finley
Then it sounds like, yeah, the team captain being team captain just got an extra responsibility.
- [26:21]
Dan Bernstein
How long do they keep Josh Moody on the practice squad? And I know it may not be up to them because I'm surprised that he hasn't been signed away. This came into focus when Kairo Santos left that 58 yard end of half kick short after they scrambled out to make the kick. I know that maybe the mitigating factor was they didn't switch out the ball in play for the rounder, more responsive cable. But you need a guy who can at least get it there. And it's sort of like it is with a quarterback. You always have people clamoring for the next guy who happens to be around. How are they really evaluating this sort of game to game, kick to kick?
- [26:59]
Patrick Finley
No, I think Cairo's their kicker and I think if you go look and look at Cairo's career stats from 50 yards out, look at Jake Moody's, Cairo's much, much, much better. So, you know, maybe there's a world where Jake makes that kick because, you know, he does have a really strong leg, but he's usually not particularly accurate there. Maybe it hits the net, but it's off to the side and, and I realized that that feels, that's a better miss in the eyes of most fans is that he had all the leg, but it was just, it was too, too far right or too far left. But I think Cairo is their kicker until future notice in terms of how long they keep him. I think this is proof that this is a pretty good roster building idea here. I mean, remember, you know, they added extra practice squad spots a couple of years ago and, you know, is keeping another kicker really a worse idea than keeping a ninth wide receiver? Like, you know, half the Bears, you know, practice, quad roster are guys. I could make up their names right now and even the most hardcore Bears fan wouldn't know that I'm making up their names. Like they're just, they're just guys. I think the idea of keeping a kicker there is a smart one. And how long he stays is probably just a function of whether some other team goes and offers him a 53 man roster spot. They can call him up one more time from the practice squad without having to add him full time. I don't think they're going to do that unless something happens to Kyra.
- [28:24]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
Several homes in the suburb of Northwood had the most beautiful landscaping.
- [28:28]
Blue Apron Advertiser
Such perfection.
- [28:29]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
The neighbor, responsible retiree Arvin Shreve.
- [28:32]
Gardens of Evil Survivor
It reminded me of Mr. Rogers.
- [28:34]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
But Arvin hid a dark secret. My mom took me to this house.
- [28:37]
Patrick Finley
And then I never lived with her again.
- [28:39]
Gardens of Evil Survivor
Arvin's message was, I have a key to get you into heaven.
- [28:43]
Gardens of Evil Narrator
Gardens of Evil is the unbelievable story of the Zion Society cult told by those who lived it. Find Gardens of Evil inside the Zion Society cult wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [28:53]
Matt Abeticola
Without comparing Ben Johnson to previous Bears head coaches, how would you evaluate his first year as a coach? I mean, we're about almost halfway through his first season as A head coach. How do you evaluate Ben Johnson without.
- [29:05]
Patrick Finley
Comparing him to other Bears?
- [29:06]
Matt Abeticola
Don't do that. Don't do that.
- [29:08]
Patrick Finley
As a media member, I. I think he's doing a wonderful job because he is direct with us. He is. There is a chip on his shoulder and an aura about him that is, quite frankly, interesting. I think it's compelling both for players and for those of us who follow the team and cover the team. And that is a very good thing. You know, I think that his in game coaching, you know, hopefully will get better. You know, we look at the scripted stuff and it's so good. And then you sit there and go, you know, where's this stuff in the fourth quarter? I think he will learn how to counter in a way that he never had to as a coordinator. And I think, you know, the deal is when you're. When you were a franchise that has only ever hired really, assistant coaches to be head coaches, except for John Fox that one time and somebody in 1940, you have to live with this. You have to live with the on the job training. And I think that we are seeing Ben having to learn on the fly a little bit. And I. I can forgive that because like I said that that's, you know, he's never been a head coach before, you know, you. He doesn't have experience until he does, you know.
- [30:18]
Matt Abeticola
All right, now you can compare it to previous head coaches. How are things different in Hal's Hall?
- [30:22]
Patrick Finley
There is a straightforward nature of Ben that was not there with Matt Eberfluss. For sure there is.
- [30:29]
Dan Bernstein
There's a working brain that wasn't there with Maddie. Straightforward nature that the guy isn't.
- [30:36]
Matt Abeticola
Patrick's being nice, he's being polite, he's being kind blocks.
- [30:40]
Patrick Finley
There's a. There's an intensity to him that is, you know, I guess I think when he first got here, I thought that he was kind of, you're out, you know, a charming, you know, social guy who had an intense side to him. Now I believe he's an intense guy who has a social side to him, if that makes sense.
- [30:59]
Dan Bernstein
Totally.
- [31:00]
Patrick Finley
Yes. Yeah. And I think he's got the emotional intelligence to toggle between the two. This is somebody who will stop practice and use a lot of great words. And also somebody who wrote a poem about Brian Piccolo. So that's. There's a depth there that might not have been there. You know, Matt Nagy, when Things were Good, was really fun to cover. And I think people forget that. You know, he seemed to be enjoying himself and he seemed to have the attention of his team in a way that I haven't seen in my 13 years here. I think Ben has a chance to be like that and. And that it could have some real staying power and then probably be able to handle the. The dips a little better than Matt Nagy did.
- [31:41]
Dan Bernstein
You know, Let me ask you this, then, because you brought up Matt Nagy.
- [31:44]
Matt Abeticola
13 years, though. I can't believe it's been 13 years. Geez.
- [31:47]
Dan Bernstein
So you tell me. We have heard Nege's name resurface again, and we know that sometimes it is that a second go round for an NFL head coach can work. It can hit. You know, you don't have to go back to Bill Belichick or Mike Shanahan, that sometimes guys really do learn their lessons and really do find themselves in a better place. And maybe recently, maybe I'm just more receptive to professional reinvention on that level because of my own experiences. But do you think it's possible that Matt Negie could take over the right team at the right time and be a really good NFL head coach?
- [32:32]
Patrick Finley
Sure. Yes. Yes, I do. I think that Nashville, to me, would be a good landing spot for him. You know, you've got the quarterback. You know, you need somebody with energy there. I think you need somebody who can sell the program a little bit as they're building the stadium. And I do think that he has the charm to be able to do that. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. You know, the question, if you're Matt, is are you going to be the next Andy Reid in Kansas City? And if so, do you want to stick around until, you know, whenever that retirement happens?
- [33:04]
Dan Bernstein
Yeah, but there's downsides to that, too. Following a legend and a champion can. Can be very, very difficult.
- [33:12]
Patrick Finley
Yes. Except, you know, and, you know, it's kind of. Who was the guy, Dan. Who's the guy who followed Wooden? Why am I blanking on the guy who followed John Wooden at ucla?
- [33:22]
Dan Bernstein
The immediate follow of John.
- [33:24]
Patrick Finley
Yeah, he wound up at uab. Whatever.
- [33:26]
Dan Bernstein
Oh, yes. Murray Barto.
- [33:29]
Patrick Finley
Gene Barto.
- [33:30]
Dan Bernstein
Murray's the kid. Gene Barto. Yes.
- [33:32]
Patrick Finley
Yeah. Yeah. There's a. I mean, I think there's an element of that where, boy, it's horrible to follow John Wooden, but, you know, you get. You know, you get the Bill Waltons and Lu. Al Sinders of the world, you know, who can. Who you get to coach as an assistant. And if I am Matt, I think following Andy Reid would be tough, but I think in the interim, you get to coach the transcendent Player of our generation while you wait. That's. I think that's pretty good situation.
- [33:59]
Matt Abeticola
All right, looking ahead to this game on Sunday against the Bengals, with or without Joe Flacco, what do the Bears need to do to win this game?
- [34:08]
Patrick Finley
They need to score in the red zone. I hate to beat that to death, but they do. I think doing that requires a run game that is a lot closer to what they did two and three games ago than it was last week. And I think that they need to hold Jamar Chase to 120 receiving yards.
- [34:29]
Matt Abeticola
That's it, right?
- [34:30]
Patrick Finley
Yeah. I mean, they're going to throw the ball to him 40 times. I think that that's. I don't think that they should try to race the Bengals to 40. I think that they should try to race the Bengals to 28 or 29. And doing that requires Caleb Williams being accurate as a passer and the Bears running the ball the right way. And, you know, and if you, you know, if you can pop a couple, great. But if not, there is nothing wrong with getting four and a half yards on first and ten.
- [34:57]
Dan Bernstein
Well, I'd like to get specific about Jamar Chase because if you're playing an outside leverage on Chase, Flacco will kill you with that slant.
- [35:07]
Patrick Finley
Yep.
- [35:07]
Dan Bernstein
It's an easy pass for him, and he'll throw it every time. Why doesn't. I don't know why they didn't make the adjustment, why other teams haven't done it. Why don't you go with inside leverage and just make it a more difficult pass and use the sideline as an extra defender? I mean, I don't care if you sell out that if. Unless you're worried about a stop and go. Are you worried about a double move that. Why not force everything to the perimeter?
- [35:34]
Patrick Finley
I think that makes sense on, you know, third and manageable. I would just wonder about him beating you deep and, you know, especially if the Bears are going to trot out, you know, if Tyreek Stevenson's not going to be healthy. Say what you will about Tyreek, Tyreek's their best option against him. If Tyreek is out there, maybe I have a little more faith that. That he can take him deep even with bad leverage there. But, yeah, I don't know. This guy's gonna kill you one way or the other. I think if you're the Bears, you need to get to the quarterback and at least. At least make it interesting every once in a while. Because otherwise, like you said, the. The Bears traditionally struggle with quarterbacks who know where the ball's going. And say what you will about Joe Flacco, that's not.
- [36:17]
Matt Abeticola
That's really not a great thing.
- [36:20]
Patrick Finley
Yeah, but I mean, do you know what I'm saying, though? Like, Joe Flacco is not the world's most athletic person, and. But he knows where the ball's going. And having somebody who can answer every question there, you know, the least you can do is try and. Try and knock him down and make him process things a little quicker.
- [36:39]
Dan Bernstein
All right, lastly, the last thing I have for you, trade deadline, it is we pay a lot of attention, maybe more attention to it than we have in the past, because I think teams very slowly are a little less reluctant to make some of the moves that they might have been in the past. Where the Bears are right now in the big picture, is there any reason why they would value anything in the present over the future?
- [37:05]
Patrick Finley
I don't think so. Unless you're just looking for legs who can play corner or maybe a situational pass rusher, kind of like, you know, just, you know, a guy who you'd give 15 snaps to a game. They seem to be kind of in the murky middle here. And that's not a bad thing because, you know, there have been years here when, you know, they need to sell everything where I don't think that they're one established veteran away from winning a playoff game right now, but I also think that subtracting from this team, when they are going to have at least a.500 record at the deadline and when you need to give your quarterback, who is developing all the offensive weapons, you can, I think that's foolish, too. So I think they're probably somewhere in the middle. You know, you could talk me into them adding a defensive back, you know, or an edge rush.
- [37:50]
Matt Abeticola
Sure.
- [37:51]
Patrick Finley
But, boy, those are two positions that, you know, good teams don't give those guys away. So I think it'll probably be quiet. I've been wrong before, but I, you know, I think that they're. I. I think they're going to stick with what they've got.
- [38:05]
Matt Abeticola
All right, Patrick, thank you so much for the time. Really appreciate great stuff, and always, always enjoy reading your stuff. You can always check him out. The Sun Times Bears beat reporter and also the podcast Hallis Intrigue as well. So, Patrick, thank you so much for your time, my friend.
- [38:19]
Patrick Finley
Hey, anytime. Thank you, guys.
- [38:20]
Matt Abeticola
All right, we'll talk to you soon.
- [38:22]
Dan Bernstein
That's Patrick Finley of the Chicago Sun Times. Good stuff in there.
- [38:26]
Patrick Finley
Yeah.
- [38:26]
Matt Abeticola
No, yeah, very good. I can't believe it's 13 years.
- [38:28]
Patrick Finley
Just.
- [38:29]
Dan Bernstein
It's so fast. I think the last time I saw him in person was in Bourbon A.
- [38:36]
Matt Abeticola
Yes. And. Yeah. And I've been to Bourbon A in forever, so.
- [38:39]
Dan Bernstein
Well, they won't let you back.
- [38:41]
Matt Abeticola
Well, yeah. All the amaretto.
- [38:43]
Gardens of Evil Survivor
Yeah.
- [38:43]
Dan Bernstein
At least you, me, and Johnny something.
- [38:47]
Matt Abeticola
Yes, that's right. That's right.
- [38:49]
Dan Bernstein
Or that rando that gave us the ride with the broken windshield.
- [38:54]
Matt Abeticola
Oh, yeah. I mean, because we didn't. We couldn't drive anywhere. We didn't have cars. I think we were, like, bumming rides from people. Yes. That was a successful, successful night. Was that the night?
- [39:04]
Dan Bernstein
Can you drive us home?
- [39:06]
Matt Abeticola
Was that the White Castle night?
- [39:09]
Dan Bernstein
Either that or steak and shake. Oh, was that the big steak and shake night with you in the vegetable soup?
- [39:14]
Matt Abeticola
Oh, it might have been. I can't add. They blend. They all blur together.
- [39:19]
Dan Bernstein
We had a big table of people.
- [39:20]
Matt Abeticola
And you.
- [39:21]
Dan Bernstein
I knocked out the seven on seven. Seven by seven?
- [39:24]
Matt Abeticola
Yes, the seven by seven. You killed that. And then I made you eat the bowl of soup.
- [39:28]
Dan Bernstein
You made everybody have soup.
- [39:28]
Matt Abeticola
Yeah.
- [39:30]
Dan Bernstein
You were like the ambassador of soup. Everybody get vegetable, beef soup.
- [39:34]
Matt Abeticola
Soup for everyone. But then again, then there was the White Castle day where it wasn't all over your room.
- [39:41]
Dan Bernstein
Oh, yeah.
- [39:41]
Matt Abeticola
Bags and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [39:43]
Dan Bernstein
Then there was the time I left one of the bags in the road at the drive through because I don't know how it slipped out of my hand.
- [39:50]
Matt Abeticola
Still not the best. The best fast food, though.
- [39:52]
Dan Bernstein
The best fast food story was the Taco Bell.
- [39:55]
Matt Abeticola
Meatless tacos.
- [39:56]
Dan Bernstein
Meatless tacos. I got 12 tacos, and six of them had no meat in them.
- [40:00]
Matt Abeticola
They had lettuce, and they had cheese and tomatoes. And I was like, let's go.
- [40:03]
Dan Bernstein
No tomatoes.
- [40:04]
Matt Abeticola
It was just lettuce and cheese.
- [40:05]
Dan Bernstein
I didn't get them.
- [40:06]
Matt Abeticola
Deluxe lettuce and cheese only, no meat. And I was like, let's go back. And you're like, no, I'm good.
- [40:11]
Dan Bernstein
Well, I just put some sauce in there. And I was. I was tired.
- [40:14]
Matt Abeticola
Yeah. You weren't tired. I would say I was also tired. Okay. Also tired, sure.
- [40:20]
Patrick Finley
Right.
- [40:20]
Matt Abeticola
You can't prove that.
- [40:22]
Dan Bernstein
I was. I was also tired at that point.
- [40:24]
Matt Abeticola
Good stuff, though, with Patrick Finley. You know, I'm curious to see what they do to take advantage of this center. Was Ted Carris taking, I mean, his first NFL snaps. Yeah.
- [40:35]
Dan Bernstein
I got a note reminding us, University of Illinois, Teddy Karras.
- [40:39]
Matt Abeticola
Oh, was he really?
- [40:40]
Dan Bernstein
Yes, he is University of Illinois and the great nephew of Alex Harris.
- [40:46]
Matt Abeticola
Alex Harris.
- [40:46]
Dan Bernstein
As we talked about so the way you take advantage of him is you put Andrew Billings on top of him. Yeah, that's.
- [40:52]
Matt Abeticola
I'm wondering, you know, and then how does that impact the rest of what you do? How can it.
- [40:57]
Dan Bernstein
And they do. There's some shifting that you can do because usually they don't use a zero technique. But if you want to really bother a center, you say, Hey, 97, big guy, get your big fat ass over here. And you don't. And usually they will do some shifting immediate pre snap, like hand on the ground, you'll hear Billings yell move. And then they'll shift and he can shift right nose to nose, hat to hat. Have fun with that.
- [41:25]
Patrick Finley
Yeah.
- [41:26]
Matt Abeticola
Yeah, enjoy that. Good luck. Good luck, Teddy.
- [41:28]
Dan Bernstein
It would be like the day when Terry and I interviewed Bears seventh round pick. I think his name was Brian Anderson out of pit. You were there, I think.
- [41:42]
Matt Abeticola
Okay, I don't remember this.
- [41:45]
Dan Bernstein
And he was going up against Ted Washington and Keith Traylor and we're like, hey, let's talk to the draft pick. You don't remember this? No.
- [41:54]
Patrick Finley
Okay.
- [41:55]
Dan Bernstein
So he sits down and he was almost crying. It was right after practice. And really. Hey, do the interview. Sure. And he comes over, he was anxious and so how's practice going? And he said, they're so big. They're so big. And I said, are things going well? It's like Ted Washington, he's, he's, he's so strong and big and fast. Oh, God. And he was cut the next day.
- [42:25]
Matt Abeticola
Poor kid. Oh, Jesus. Because that interview.
- [42:29]
Dan Bernstein
No, it was because he barely couldn't block.
- [42:33]
Matt Abeticola
And I remember it's a problem for an offensive lineman.
- [42:35]
Dan Bernstein
And I talked to one of the scouts about him. Yeah, I said, yeah, it was before it. And one of the scout, back when all the scouts would hang around you kind of, he's like, yeah, I like the guys, but he's just a right guard like he is, he is. If he makes in the NFL, it's only going to be as a right guard. And I'm thinking to myself, why did you draft him then? Yeah, like that. That's not a guy you draft out of college. If he's. It's like having a, you know, drafting a college first baseman.
- [43:01]
Matt Abeticola
Yeah, these are like immediately emotionally overwhelmed. That's a, that's a problem.
- [43:06]
Dan Bernstein
I think the first padded practice or something. They're so big. He's really, really fast. They're. And apparently they were just picking him like throwing him around like a chair.
- [43:14]
Matt Abeticola
Those are the good old days though, of training camp down in Bourbon. It would. Our guy Jerry would just walk around and we'd hang out with Jerry.
- [43:21]
Dan Bernstein
Oh, how you doing?
- [43:23]
Matt Abeticola
It was our pal.
- [43:23]
Dan Bernstein
Hey.
- [43:24]
Matt Abeticola
I was looking at some old Bengals games highlights over the last few weeks and I was watching that jets game last week and so hopefully the Bears can do some, some damage on the scoreboard like Justin Fields and the jets have done the. I came across these next gen stats that you like. There's a, there's a next gen stat. I don't know if you saw this one. It's called improbable Completions. Have you taken a look at this?
- [43:48]
Dan Bernstein
It sounds like the name of a reality show or something. Yeah, Robert Stack brings you improbable completions.
- [43:55]
Matt Abeticola
So the next gen stat, they take the. Look the machine, the learning model determines that the probability of a pass being completed. They've named it completion probability. The machine learning model takes into account next gen sats such as air distance, air yards, receiver separation. It also leverages other similar plays.
- [44:17]
Dan Bernstein
Right?
- [44:17]
Patrick Finley
Yeah.
- [44:18]
Matt Abeticola
Other unrecorded metrics such as distance from the sideline and then they come up with this improbable completion percentage.
- [44:26]
Dan Bernstein
I get it.
- [44:27]
Matt Abeticola
So there's the top 20 of the top 20, 19 are quarterbacks, which makes the most sense. Breece hall threw a touchdown pass in the game against the Bengals and it ranks number, number 16.
- [44:42]
Dan Bernstein
Wait, does a non quarterback get an adjustment improbability factor?
- [44:49]
Matt Abeticola
It doesn't say that it does because I would think looking at the factors you think it should, but.
- [44:54]
Dan Bernstein
Of course it should. But if a hunter or a wide receiver or a non quarterback throws the pass, the probability should immediately decrease the moment you know he's throwing it.
- [45:03]
Matt Abeticola
Yeah. I think looking at the factors they used to measure this, it doesn't take into account he throws the ball. It's just a thrown ball that's received for a touchdown.
- [45:11]
Dan Bernstein
Got it.
- [45:11]
Matt Abeticola
And the percent. So the completion probability on that play was 18%. It's 16th on the list right now. And I don't know if you saw the play, but he gets a, he gets a pitch at like the six yard line, takes a couple steps up and then just throws it to a tight end who's in the back corner of the end zone with a defender. All he throws it over a defender. There's a second defender like face guarding him back completely to the play though, has no idea that the ball's coming and just catches it right over the top of his helmet. It's really fun play, but it, I was looking, I was like, I was Wondering where that, where that play would rank when I saw the highlight of it. And sure enough, it landed in the top 20 at number 16.
- [45:51]
Dan Bernstein
Good for him. I don't know why it popped into my timeline yesterday, but the fake field goal that the Seattle Seahawks ran with the completion on Monday Night Football to Efren Herrera, I don't know why it was in my town.
- [46:06]
Matt Abeticola
It just came up.
- [46:07]
Dan Bernstein
I don't know. But it was just there. And I remember watching it. Yeah, but then it looked so old in my mind. It doesn't look that old. It looks ancient. Ancient. And I was like, oh, geez. Because he was lining up for this field going, oh, this is a tough field going. No, it's not. It's not a tough field goal at all. It's like he's a soccer style kicker.
- [46:32]
Matt Abeticola
Long time ago you had to note.
- [46:33]
Dan Bernstein
That the person was a soccer style kicker and not a straight on kicker. And then, and he goes right through the middle and they lob it over the defense and he takes a big hit, hangs onto the ball and little, little effort. Herrera pops up, teammates are all over him. That felt like it was relatively recent to me.
- [46:50]
Matt Abeticola
Well, even, even watching old highlights from the 80s when you know, we were a lot, a lot younger, obviously the shoulder, the size of the shoulder pads and like the 85 Bears.
- [47:00]
Dan Bernstein
Not only that, the speed at which everybody's moving.
- [47:03]
Matt Abeticola
As people would get killed today. You send a team back, send the worst team back, the worst team in the league right now, send them back 40 years.
- [47:14]
Dan Bernstein
If you sent these Tennessee Titans or you pick anybody, they kill them. They shut everybody out. They'd score every time. Yes, that's.
- [47:24]
Matt Abeticola
Yeah, you got. Callahan would still have a job. He wouldn't be at the auto parts.
- [47:27]
Dan Bernstein
But that's sports. That's sort of like, that's.
- [47:30]
Matt Abeticola
But don't tell Jordan that though, that.
- [47:32]
Dan Bernstein
We had that discussion where we were mentioning that the last year's Thunder would beat the 96 Bulls as easily as those 96 Bulls would have beaten the 66 Lakers.
- [47:48]
Matt Abeticola
Yes, that's correct.
- [47:50]
Dan Bernstein
And that, that's what happens in sports.
- [47:51]
Matt Abeticola
That's correct. I mean, because you have guys that are, they're all seven feet, they're all fast, they all shoot threes. It wouldn't. It wouldn't.
- [47:57]
Dan Bernstein
Yeah, it would be. Absolutely.
- [47:59]
Matt Abeticola
And, and, and like the, the old post up moves that the big men would have would get. First of all, they wouldn't be able to move.
- [48:06]
Dan Bernstein
People got mad. I said whatever rules, whatever you want, it would be. They looked at after warm ups, after warm ups, they'd be like, whoa, we're in trouble.
- [48:21]
Matt Abeticola
Right? He gets guys that are 7 5.
- [48:25]
Patrick Finley
Yeah.
- [48:25]
Dan Bernstein
Like, imagine the 96 Bulls against the 66 Lakers and Jerry west and Elgin.
- [48:31]
Matt Abeticola
Baylor, like they would kill them.
- [48:33]
Dan Bernstein
Oh, they, they, they destroyed. They'd win every game by 40. Same thing would happen with last year's Thunder against and that. But that's, that's good. That's sports. It evolves. Things get. The average player gets way better. Way better.
- [48:47]
Matt Abeticola
Well, yeah, I mean, nutrition and the way you're taking care of bodies and what you do.
- [48:51]
Dan Bernstein
And now that it's practice, look at what high school.
- [48:54]
Matt Abeticola
I mean, the money in it. So it's, it's year round where, I mean, you look at guys like, like Doug and stuff before, and they're like selling shoes in the off season and getting jobs and bouncers at bars because they needed the money. Now you can do it 24, 7. Needed. Needed food. Why are you doing this job? I need to eat, buddy.
- [49:12]
Dan Bernstein
You know, Buddy, I'm hungry. I gotta go. I gotta invest on a nightclub.
- [49:16]
Matt Abeticola
Oh, Dougie.
- [49:17]
Dan Bernstein
Oh, yeah. Don't make me sad. So that's gonna do it today?
- [49:20]
Patrick Finley
Yeah, for.
- [49:21]
Dan Bernstein
That was good. That was great.
- [49:22]
Matt Abeticola
That was awesome.
- [49:22]
Dan Bernstein
That was really good. That was forward progress. And we look forward to tomorrow's show as well. We're gonna get into some of the nitty gritty on the Bears and the Cincinnati Bengals, look at some matchups and start figuring out if we think the Bears are gonna win because I don't know yet. I got to know more about Flacco.
- [49:42]
Matt Abeticola
I just liked what Patrick said about the Bears. Don't try to race on the 40 because I just, I don't like that if it's a, if it's a big shootout, if Flacco plays, can throw the ball. Even Browning, I think. I mean, he can throw. He can throw a good ball. I mean, he's not going to make the same good decisions.
- [49:57]
Dan Bernstein
Right.
- [49:57]
Matt Abeticola
That Flacco is going to make, but he still throws a good ball and he's. They've averaged 30 points at home.
- [50:02]
Dan Bernstein
All right, we'll talk about all that tomorrow. Don't waste good stuff today. So that's going to do it. That is. Forward progress, a Chicago Bears podcast on 312 Sports.
- [50:17]
Matt Abeticola
Forward progress, a Chicago Bears podcast with Dan Bernstein and Matt Abeticola on 312 Sports.
- [50:28]
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