Matt Abaticola (3:01)

You know, it's interesting, Mark, that you, you put it that way because we've talked about, about the, the Bears current state on this podcast that when Ben Johnson got here, he realized it's a heavier lift than what he thought it was going to be. And you said right away that he, you feel like he didn't do the surveillance on the organization, the roster, the general manager. Why do you, why do you say that? Why do you feel that way about where he's at now?

Mark Potash (3:25)

Well, because. Well, from before, I mean, but when he, he got, I thought, when this job was open, I thought the coaching candidates had to do more homework on the Bears than they had to do on them. Because there's got to be. You got to, you got to look at this organization, see why is everyone failing at everything they do except Vic Fangio in this organization? And the first thing he says before his very first Zoom conference, not even a face to face was, I want this job. That was a red flag to me, to tell you the truth. As much as he is as highly regarded and is highly accomplished, you know, he's got the much better resume than Nagy and Tressman and all these guys. I respect that. But that was a red flag for me that the guy didn't really want to know what the McCaskeys are all about and what working for this organization is all about and how people just become, like I say, I hate to keep saying this, but become the worst version of themselves when they work, when they step foot in this place. I mean, Hard Docs became the worst version of itself when it stepped foot in Hell Hall. I mean, that's how, that's how prevalent that that effect has become. And it was just, it was just surprising to me that he took that. He said that the, the, the guy who could pretty much pick his job said, I want this job without really delving into. And I know he did. I'm sure he did background, but it's not, there's nothing like Talking to the McCaskeys and just the people inside face to face and finding out what makes them tick, what they are all about and, and that he didn't do that was a little bit surprising. So like I said, I think he's learning a lot about how they do business at, at Hallis Hall. So I just think it's a, it's a learning process. I think though that he is a little in a little better position than even like Juan said, who had authority and you know, Lovey and just, and everybody since Lovey, all the failures, I think he's in a better position to kind of overcome that, rise above the muck, as I always say, and, and, and, and, and, and win where and succeed where others have not.

Dan Bernstein (5:21)

And yet Ryan Polls was given a five year contract extension, lining him up, you know, joined at the hip now with, with Ben Johnson. How does it play out if in fact, you know, this guy's not going anywhere? In other situations like this, Mark, we've seen a head coach come in and like, all right, I'm just going to bring in my guy. I've got a, somebody who can do all this job, I'm going to run it all, but I need somebody to be my valet and do all the administrative work. This isn't that case. So how could this play out with him establishing a foothold, a power base to express and exert that authority when he technically on the masthead has somebody above him.

Mark Potash (6:04)

Yeah, and that is a kind of an interesting curve in this situation that he obviously signed off on that contract extension that aligned them together. So I think that is an issue. But I think already, I mean we, you know, look, from the very beginning, at least to the beginning of the season, we've seen that, that Ryan, Ryan Poles is in the background and Ryan Poles is not the same, does not have the same poll at Hallis Hall. And he's not this face, he's not the, he's not. It's, it's Ben Johnson. So I don't know how that works out. I mean, you know, we've seen it before where guys get pushed out or, or put in, in positions of lesser authority. And I see Ben Johnson just kind of taking control and being kind of the, the Shanahan or the McVeigh in that dynamic and the other guy being just either pushed in the background or eventually pushed out. I don't think that even though they just signed him to a contract, if things don't work out, I mean if you keep getting guy, if you keep drafting guys as a left tackle and they become a backup right tackle and things like that. You. He, he's learning. That's what I'm saying. I think he's learning a lot about what about the guy. And, and maybe that won't be. Maybe that trend will not continue for polls and he'll be that guy who continues to continue to get people. But I think Ben Johnson is just, he's just going to have more authority and just be the guy I think at household and I think, I don't know but I'm just sensing that Kevin Warren understands the dynamic there and I think he'll let that play out. So I'm not saying that he'll get rid of, he'll, he'll push him out, which has happened, that has happened before. But I'm just saying they will coexist in a much different dynamic than they started.

Matt Abaticola (7:42)

Obviously Ben Johnson came here, wanted to coach Caleb Williams. What do you think he's learned about Caleb Williams since he's been here?

Mark Potash (7:49)

Here? Well, I think he's learned that he's got a lot more work to do than maybe he thought. I mean I think, I think he's learned what, what I thought last year was all about is that, is that Caleb Williams is not. He's a really great prospect. He's better than Trubisky, he's better than Fields, but he's not that it factor instinctive quarterback. He needs, he needs help and I think he maybe needs more help than Ben Johnson realized when he saw Caleb Williams have some pretty good games against the Lions defense. And I think he's learning that there's more work there. You know, at the beginning, at the beginning he, he was pretty, I think enthusiastic about hitting the ground running and now I think he's preaching more patience and you're hearing some of the same things you heard from Dave Vergone and other quarterback guys in the Bears about, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a 17 game season, not a three, not a three game season. I think that was, that Shane Waldron, that was Luke Getzy. But you know they all get, they all get jumbled in my head. But anyway I, I think he's learning that he's got a lot of work to do. I think, I think, I think it's interesting for embarrassment to take a look at what Jim Harbaugh is doing with Justin Herbert and because Justin Herbert is a guy who was like to me he was, he was trending. I know he had all the, all the he has all the tools, he's great prospect this and that, but he was trending in more of a, of a, of a Philip Rivers, Jay Cutler kind of thing where there's always something, something's always going wrong and he always undercuts his own success. And now you're seeing a guy who in like what 18 games under Harbaugh, all of a sudden he had something the other day, Herbert where he did something where he had that he had done before. He had a really bad start and then all of a sudden in the fourth quarter he was great and they won a game that they should have lost. That's to me that's, that's the Harbaugh factor. That's what Jim Harbaugh does with quarterback. That's why he maxes out with Josh Johnson and Andrew Luck and Kaepernick and Alex Smith, all these guys, J.J. mcCarthy and that's what he is. And the only reason I point that out is because the Bears have their Jim Harbaugh in Ben Johnson and they have their quarterback in Caleb Williams. So finally it's not like saying oh gee, if they only had their Patrick Mahomes, if they only had their Aaron Rodgers, if they only had their Tom Brady, you know that's pie in the sky. This is real. The Bears have the have what these have what another successful team has to make their quarterback. So back to the original thing. I think he's got to do just similar to what Harbaugh is doing which kind of reformulating him. What he's doing with Herbert, I think, I think that's what, that's what Ben Johnson's doing with is going to have to do with Caleb Williams. And you know you're seeing now he's reached the point where he can beat a bad team. So I guess that's progress.

Dan Bernstein (10:25)

Well, with that in mind, Mark, on Monday I went through the list of other Bears first round pick quarterbacks going back all the way. The one I didn't include in that list going back was Harbaugh himself and McMahon before him. But all of the other previous to Cade McNown looking at what I referred to as their biggest fool's gold game. The one where everyone said oh my goodness, he's finally arrived. And people Forget that Cade McNown had this four touchdown game against the Lions over 300 yards. That's when he was finding Marcus Robinson when he was looking like a poor man's Randy Moss. We know about the, the Mitchell Trubisky was it six touchdowns, one off the team record against Tampa Bay. Justin Fields had one of those games. Everybody's had one in there. And how do we determine the difference between a great day against a bad team that isn't indicative of someone making progress and one that would be.

Mark Potash (11:28)

Well, I gotta tell you, Dan, I, I don't know, I, I literally, I, I literally crowdsourced that question myself and just said I'm tired. I said, I, I just said I'm tired of writing this fool's gold story. Tell me why. And there were, you know, good suggestions, but they're all, it was all the same thing. Y' all couldn't really tell what it was all just, well, because he's Caleb Williams and because he's being coached by Ben Johnson, it was all that thing. I, you know, this isn't really answer your question, but I, I, I also wrote this earlier. I think the one thing I got out of that, out of that game that, that I think differentiates it from other fool's gold game. And this is really doesn't, it's not a good answer. But this team at least responded to Ben Johnson. Ben Johnson, you know, really, if he, if he told reporters that, you know, that you gotta, you know, you gotta practice better and you're not practice habit. Just, you know what he's telling his team is 10 times worse. Right? So you know, he read them the riot act and they at least responded where they didn't really respond to ever to not even in his first year. And they did respond to Nagy, I guess. But I mean at least they responded. But I know that doesn't answer the question but because I have to say I don't know because I'm asking the same question myself. I had the same, I almost, it's almost hard for me to watch the Bears now because I'm like consumed by my own skepticism because I like I should have enjoyed that game whether I was a reporter or whether I was a fan and I was a little bit of both. I should have enjoyed that game. And that whole time I'm watching the same thing you just said. And the thing about what you just said is all those things come right to your head. I mean I didn't even look it up. Yes. Trubisky against Detroit, Trubisky against the Buccaneers. Fields against the, against the, the Broncos. Williams, Williams against Carolina and Jacksonville. You know, the, the, which those two games like the last time a Bears offense scored five touchdowns in back to back games since like 1956 or something. And that felt so, so the thing is, so I'll be honest, I'm not going to try and tell you I have an answer because I really. I don't know. That's why I'm anxious to see what happens not only this week, but really much further down the road. I, I think I, I mentioned it also in my first intent column yesterday. Yesterday that it's not for another, what, five or six weeks that we'll really know when they face some good. I think the rematch against Minnesota and when. And when they face Micah Parsons. When, when you have the fear of a pass rusher on every down that you did not have on Sunday and which you will have this Sunday, then we'll get a better indication of whether this was fool's gold or not. But I will say this. Let me just say this because I got this this back at me. This guy's on a different plane than Trubisky and Fields. Even if he fails, the Bears will, can and probably will still succeed. He is a better quarterback. But the, that's not the point. The point is what do. What does what harbinger is this. What indicator is that game? What does that mean that he succeeded with a, with a clean pocket and everything going his way and what does that mean for his development going further when he faces better defensive teams? And I'll be honest, I didn't see anything in particular because everything he could do, even the confidence he had, that Ben Johnson referred to and other people have talked about that he had against the Cowboys, he might not have them when he's got Micah Parsons on face, stared him in the face every down. There's a fear factor there that he didn't have. And so I can't even say that the things, anything he did is really that, that you could say, well, that's, that's, that's going to work. That's going to be universal. I didn't see anything that would work that is universal. It's just you got to wait and see. That's the theme of the whole season. You know, I'll believe it when I see it.

Matt Abaticola (15:16)

You know, I love that you said that. You're kind of consumed by your own skepticism because I relate to that.

Dan Bernstein (15:21)

I said a lot of people nodding when he says that.

Matt Abaticola (15:24)

I identify to it, Mark. And it's just even when I should be more joyous as a Bears fan, I'm not as joyful as I should be watching a victory because I am just cloaked in skepticism of this team in the super bowl era. They've had one super bowl victory. They've had two appearances in 60 years in super bowl games. And even when they, when they got it right with Ditka and, and, and in the 85, 86 season, they couldn't sustain that, and it fell apart even though they had it and it should have been more. And then they go back with Lovey in one year, in 2000, January of 2007, they're there again in Miami against the Colts. Why is it now you've been around the team for 30 years, Dan? You started covering the team 30 years ago. Why is it there is such a heavy dysfunction within the Bears organization? And people talk and I fight against this all the time, Mark. And it's a real struggle because I'm a huge Bears fan, yet I'm more negative than I am positive with the Bears. And why is it there is such a heavy dysfunction with this team? And, you know, people talk about the longevity as something to praise. No, that just means you're old and you're not successful enough, in my opinion, for being in this market. Why is there such a heavy dysfunction?

Mark Potash (16:40)

Well, my only guess, and I've analyzed this for many years, I just think it starts at the top. I think it starts with the fact that the McCaskeys are not football people. They don't know how to hire football people. And ultimately they hire somebody who, even if they give that. That person leeway to do what they want, I think they hire the episode. You know, the, the. I think the episode that explains it best was the Trustman one. I mean, they hired, they hired a GM who was like them, very much like them, and Phil Emery, and he hired a guy who was very much like him instead of Bruce Arians and, and, and, you know, and the Bears, actually, they, they hired Emory over Jason Light, who's been successful post Tom Brady. So, I mean, so they make, they, they, they're just. It's so hard to say because I like them and they're great Chicagoans, but they're not football people. And I think if I have to say, why are the Bears so bad? Especially since what I consider the, the George Hallis era ended when Ditko was fired because Ditko was hired by George Hallis and Jim Finks was hired by Mugs Hal at the behest of George House. The 85 Super bowl was a Halas regime, was a Halif show. Everything after that was. Has been a McCaskey thing, has been a McCaskey show. And it's been just consistently, consistently People who are hired either the wrong guy or they underperform again with the exception of Vic Fangio. And so I think it starts at the top. And so that's the only explanation. It's an incredible run of, Of. Of failure. And, and that's. Is. Is there any other reason? You know, you tell me, but I hate to. I hate to crap on the McCaskys. They're really nice people, but they are not football people. They're. They're totally different from the house. From the hell side of the family.

Dan Bernstein (18:34)

It's amazing to me. Mark, we were just doing the story earlier today on Dan Bernstein unfiltered the CNBC story yesterday, which is getting no play here in Chicago. The Bears have been valued at $9 billion. The Andy McKenna ownership stake has been divvied up between the McCaskeys and Pat Ryan. And that happened. And all of. Everything's leaking out about this deal. As part of the deal, the Bears have been valued at $9 billion.

Matt Abaticola (19:04)

That's the fifth highest valuation in the league.

Dan Bernstein (19:07)

It's unbelievable. And here. This means more McCaskey ownership, not less. I thought when they talked about selling a chunk of the team to private equity or that somebody. All it takes is somebody to come in from the outside. One person with all of these. The Giants are currently exploring the 10% maximum cap for a sale to, I believe, some private equity. And I'm not trying to say nice things about the vampire squids that are private equity, but just any objective outside board member to take a look and sniff around and fumigate the manse on the hill that's covered in cobble and just say, look, this is how I've seen other businesses work. Can we ask these questions? Can we. Instead of bringing in Ernie, of course, he and Bill Polian and all these people, can we just do business differently? I was hoping this might be a chance, and I guess it's not.

Mark Potash (20:02)

No, nothing. I don't think. I don't think anything. I mean, you can. Hey, the Glazers have won two Super Bowls, and they are less rooted in football than the bear, than the McCaskeys. So it can happen. I mean, you can have. You can kind of fall into success. That is. I'm not saying you'll. They'll never win. But I think until the McCaskeys just remove themselves from ownership or just any kind of authority. I mean, I, I've always said if they were in any other business, they'd be out of business. They're. They're. You Know, they're just shooting fish in a barrel with the. At the NFL because you make. You just can't help but make money and. And be successful. So it's kind of a. It's kind of a not. Not your. Not a typical business setup. So this is. Yeah. So I think. I think that. Yeah, I agree. I agree. If something. Somebody from the outside comes in. Pat Ryan was often been mentioned as the one guy who could. Who would at least lend some, you know, sanity to it. But again, you know, I thought Kevin Warren did the same thing. I thought he would be the buffer that Ted Phillips was not. And I'll be honest, at this point in time, I'd say no. I think he's more part of the problem than solving the problem. Another hire. Another. Another hire that you. You know, another kind of McCaskey hire. That's. That's. That's my whole point is they just don't hire good football people because I don't think they know what good. They're just not rooted in football. You know, it's hard to explain. George House literally was rooted in football. He built the game, and now they go from one extreme to the other with the other side of the family. And that's just that, you know, that's just not a good way to be successful, at least on the field in the NFL.

Dan Bernstein (21:38)

Back to the team at hand. We heard Ben Johnson talking about the issues they've had in the run game at yesterday's press conference, and he said a couple things that I found interesting. One is this veteran offensive line with all the money that was spent here, and I do think that it's a. It's difficult to square the idea of investing in the resources and the money they invested in the interior of their line when it's clear that they're as far away from contending as we now believe that they are. Whether or not this was all decided and timed properly, I'm not sure. But he talked about these veterans having to learn to play with one another to pick up the intricacies of the run game. And without Saying the name, DeAndre Swift, he made it very clear that DeAndre Swift is not hitting the hole as designed, that he's not doing what they want him to do on certain plays with certain blocks. Why is this so hard? Is that. Is the run game this complicated, or is the way they're teaching it something that is not easy to understand? I just. I don't know. Why can't. Why can't you line up and run the Football.

Mark Potash (22:51)

It was, well, let's put it this way, Burnsy. It was in the first four games of Ben Johnson's, Ben Johnson's OC in Detroit. In, in 2022, the Lions with like two or three new players in different positions in their offensive line averaged in the first four games 164 yards rushing. That was the key to getting them, getting them off to a quick start that year. They went from like 25th to 5th and it was not, it was, Jared Goff was good, but it was their run game and their offensive line. And so to me that's almost like a red flag. That's something that he was, you know, the difference between Ben Johnson in 2022 and, and with the Bears in 2025 is the quarterback is much less experienced. But that, but the fact is he's still the one thing that compares are the offensive lines. They were both not great at the beginning and, and, and, and in Detroit they became better. This is the one thing that he hasn't, that he hasn't been able to do or one thing that he hasn't been able to do in Chicago that he did in Detroit. That's, to me, that's a little bit that why I asked. Yeah, I, I, I agree. Why, why can't he not do that? And DeAndre Swift, you know, he was cast, he was cast off in Detroit under, that was one of Ben Johnson's first discards was, was DeAndre Swift after he got hurt, came back slow all of a sudden. I think it was Jamal Williams became the featured back and had like 15 touchdowns and, and DeAndre Swift was traded. Can't win with them, right? Can't. You know, that was. So now he's got the same discard with an offensive line that's not as good. I mean, is he that, should he be that surprised?

Matt Abaticola (24:27)

One of the storylines that I have.

Mark Potash (24:29)

I'm sorry to answer your question about the. Why is the offensive line so difficult? I think everything here is difficult. And, and I don't know why that is and that I don't know what else to say but, but I think it's a good example of something that wasn't so difficult for him in Detroit, but it is here. In fact, the, the, the, the up and coming offensive tackle on that team was Panay Sewell, who became an all pro. Is Darnold right on that same track? You could expect that he's a high enough pick, he's been good enough, but no, he's had more penalty issues this year than he had last year and he's not developing the same way. So it all comes back to why is this? Why? It's. It's a. It's the story I'm going to be writing at some point I have written every year. Why is usually reference to the quarterback? Why is it. Why is developing a quarterback here always like pulling teeth at the Bears? Why is there always some CJ Stroud or somebody having. Or Jaden Daniels having immediate success and the Bears quarterback has to. We gotta wait 17 games to find out. Well, it's the same thing with like the offensive line or any facet of the Bears, especially in offense. Why is it always like pulling teeth? And you've got Ben Johnson here. This is a litmus test. This is a guy who did. He had very much the same thing, except for a little more experienced quarterback in Detroit. Now here he is in Chicago and. Well, we'll see. We're still in that point where we don't really know what the picture is because it's early, but we'll see. But it goes back to the same thing. Why is everything so difficult here? I asked. I am answering your question with the same question. I don't know. Because it is.

Dan Bernstein (25:56)

Things are hard here. Because things are hard here.

Mark Potash (25:58)

Yes, yes. And I think that's the offensive line issues to me in the run are exact proof of why that is a fair question.

Matt Abaticola (26:08)

So that's one of the stories you have on your notepad. One storyline I'm following and want to keep a close eye on is the progression of DJ Moore in this offense as he becomes less and less the number one receiver. I think Roma Dunes A has already made his presence known that he is the number one guy on this team. I think Luther Burden will have that opportunity to kind of jump ahead of DJ Moore as well. So I want to watch how the D.J. moore story progresses throughout this year. As a veteran who's kind of sulky and isn't really at a point in his career to help young guys get better yet what other storylines outside of everything is hard for the Bears are you looking at and keeping an eye on to follow up on through. Through the season?

Mark Potash (26:49)

Well, off the top of my head, development, you know, quarterback development, defensive development. Can they stay healthy? They haven't been able to do that. Will Ben Johnson wear down if things don't, you know, how will he respond? How will the team respond to him? I'm trying to think off top of my head. I can't really. It's. I can't give you a Good answer to that question. You know, like this week I'm. I'm looking to see how they handle a Max Crosby and as you know, that now they'll have that threat. How. How well will the offense function in this dynamic than the very easy one, the wind at your back one last week? So I can give you a better answer about what I'm looking for in this particular game. That's one thing is how the offense handles. Handles a little bit stiffer defense. But yeah, I'd have to think about that, tell you through some of the things I'm looking for. Just, you know, I mean, this team has to finish stronger than they, than they started, no matter how they start. I mean, you know, well, you know, will Ben Johnson have an effect? Yeah, well, same old question. Will Ben Johnson will be. Will. Will he be. Will he be able to kind of change Hallis hall before it changes him?

Matt Abaticola (28:00)

How do you think that, that DJ Moore story plays out?

Mark Potash (28:03)

Well, that's interesting because DJ Moore is a guy who has never been on a winning team. He's one of several guys, in fact, who has never been on a winning team. Montez Sweat has never played on a winning team. Andrew Billings never played. They have a lot of guys who have not played on a winning team, even. Especially Jalen Johnson. So I think it was five of their top seven guys, top, highest paid guys have never played on a winning team. And that's a different story. I think it goes to maybe roster construction. Do you have leaders? Do you have guys who are used to winning, who make who. Who. They're certainly productive. Montez Sweat's never been on a winning team. He's capable of being on a winning team. He's a great, really good player and so is DJ Moore. So I guess my point is, I have to admit I'm a little curious about DJ Moore. I think he's got a little bit. And this. I know it's a bad thing. He's got a little bit of. Of Bartellus Bennett in him where like Martellis Bennett was all in. And then as soon as. Who was it? Was it Zach Miller? Somebody came up and kind of took a little bit of. That's the same thing that's happening here. And all of a sudden he was out. He was totally out. He was watching the game on TV when he was injured, you know, so DJ Moore, it's a strange. He's a different kind of guy. He's the fairest thing. He's not a gamer. I guess that's. I'M trying to think of a fair way to put it because he's a productive player. He's a good guy. He, he's a nice guy. But I kind of see why teams have difficulty winning with him even when he's productive, because he always has these little things that happen. Running out of, you know, just, I don't know, certain things that happen that just, you know, raise your eyebrows. So I guess what I'm saying is I'm suspicious. What's the dubious. I can't think of the word.

Dan Bernstein (29:40)

Yeah, see what I. And I brought this up in the context of the emergence of Rome Odunse that exactly what you're saying. Martellus Bennett is an interesting comp because Martellus was just a lot more outspoken and just a bigger, a bigger personality without question. And you know, smart guy, nice guy, but a little. When it came to football, it's, you know, I know when we interviewed him regularly, he was always much more fun. When you weren't talking about football, football seemed very secondary. Yeah, it's like he didn't even really like it all that much that other things were just more interesting to him, if not more important. Because I hate that such a football thing. Football is very important to him. And I don't mean it that way. I just, I just mean that he wasn't that big a f. And in this case, as Odunze emerges. Do you think some of this gimmickry in the backfield with DJ Moore is designed to keep him. Keep his head in the game, keep him involved when the targets aren't there?

Mark Potash (30:38)

Yeah, I agree. I think, I think Ben Johnson is very conscious of that, of, of keeping DJ Moore in. Because in, in a, in like. Yeah, in a less exuberant way, he's, he's kind of that guy who you kind of have to keep. He's a he, you have to manage him. He, he seems like he's a guy who can just do his own thing because he's quiet, he doesn't rock the boat, but he has a lot of feelings. He's got, he's, he's a strong willed guy without really being that Martellis Bennett kind of personality. And I think he has to be managed and. But you're right, it is not, you know, football's not the super biggest thing for Jalen Johnson either. There's a little bit of a thread there as far as I'm concerned. You know, he takes time, you know, he misses, you know, just not to see, you know, they got guys like that. And not that you can't win with those guys, but I, I guess, and this is a totally different point. I, I, sorry to go off, off the different direction, but I think with all these things, they need, they need a Mike Brown. They need something. They need somebody. They need a leader. This team does. This team had eight captains last year. They had no leadership.

Dan Bernstein (31:39)

It's supposed to be the quarterback. Why can't it be the quarterback? That's it.

Mark Potash (31:43)

The quarterback is too deferential at this point and is not yet at the point where he's going to be whatever he's going to be. He's still figuring himself out. So I don't. You're right. It should be that. But this team needs some kind of edge. This team needs like maybe Grady Jarrett in his prime, but not now. You know, I'm saying, I mean, you need, you need some, like I said.

Dan Bernstein (32:02)

Mike, I thought that's why Tuney was really brought here. You talk about being with a winning team and being a veteran who's also individually great at his job, who can lead by example and by word and as well as deed. I thought that was the rationale behind spending that money, even though it doesn't quite time up with when they're going to be good.

Mark Potash (32:23)

Yeah, and I agree, but I think he's more a leader by example, which they have a lot of, you know, follow my lead instead of the guy who's going to get up in the locker room and raise hell when they need to and be that guy and also speak out publicly. You know, a lot, a lot of stuff is said, you know, through the media. A lot of messages are sent by leaders and stuff like that and coaches and even Ben, Ben Jackson's kind of done that a little bit. But they need, they, But I guess my point is Joe Tunis, not that kind of lead to me. My what I've looked up, he's not, you know, he was like, he was, he is definitely leader. He was voted their MVP over Mahomes last year. I mean, they definitely, definitely respected Guy, but there's a different kind of respect than just, we'll follow you, we'll follow your lead. We'll, you know, we'll do, you know, and the guy's willing to step up there and kind of get on a soapbox. And that guy is brisker. But they, for some reason, for some reason, he has never voted a captain. He's the one guy who most actively wants to be a captain and wants to be a leader. He's the Guy, he's the one guy who understands the media, the public component to leadership, and is willing to be even after bad games is make sure he's ready and talking. And they don't have those guys either. And that's another, that's another factor that you always kind of. For when I say it seems kind of self serving because I'm in the media, but is an important component that guy who's always, you know, other guys see that when there's a guy who stands up there at the bad games, Brisker is that guy. But for some reason, and part of it is his own health situation, but for some reason he's never, the team doesn't embrace him as the leader he wants to be, which is also very strange to me. And again goes back to I think the biggest problem, roster makeup.

Matt Abaticola (34:02)

Yeah, I think that's a really good point to bring up about leadership because you have a guy in Grady Jarrett who gives the, you know, let's get the defense together and the speech the night before the game this past weekend in the hotel. And he's only, he's worn a Bears uniform twice, you know, for games prior to that, that big speech moment. Joe Tuney is a guy that I think, well, yeah, really respected and is a great player and a certain, certainly an upgrade to what the Bears had on the offensive line. He's kind of brought in based on his past performance and not what he's going to do down the road for a Chicago Bears team competing for a Super bowl one day. So they really don't have those, those leadership guys. And you, you look at the highest paid guys on the team, DJ Moore, who we've already talked about him, Montez Sweat, who doesn't seem like he is that leadership type of guy on the field and he's just not performing to the level that Ryan Poles paid him as well. So they really don't have that leadership type, quality player where it should be. Caleb Williams, he's just not quite there yet.

Mark Potash (34:59)

And if you're a good team, everyone's a leader. So you don't necessarily need that. If you can be a good team without a, if you're just so good that all of a sudden everybody's a leader, then every, everything, everything everyone's doing right. You know, just like after that game, the hot dog thing, even the hot dog thing becomes a big fun story. Everything's great when, when you win, but certain teams struggle with that and when teams struggle, they need that leadership. I keep going back to, you know, Brown and And just, and just that group, you know, they had guys, you know, who would, who would be leader, you know, be leaders. I mean, Lance Briggs, I thought, you know, Erlacher.

Matt Abaticola (35:36)

It's only Cruz.

Mark Potash (35:38)

Olin Cruz. Oh, Cruz is at the top of that list. And this team lacks. That doesn't mean they can't win because they have a lot of components that you can win anyway. But boy, it's gonna be. It's not plug and play. It's. That's what I always say about, about Caleb Williams. You thought he was a plug and play guy, but he's an assembly required guy. And it's. And that kind of is representative of the whole team. They got to kind of be put together. It's not going to all happen magically. It's all going to be, it's got to be, it's got to be very, very well managed. And it's all got to come from one guy, and that's Ben Johnson. Because there's nobody else who really fills any of those roles that you need to become a winning team.

Dan Bernstein (36:19)

I had some media questions for you as well as Bears questions. And something I've been thinking about is the fact that the Monday press conference has now become virtual. And my guess is it's probably just a post Covid convenience. But I really liked the fact that win or lose that the coach had to get up in the morning and walk into a room and stand in front of people and answer questions.

Matt Abaticola (36:47)

Now that's not till Wednesday, right?

Mark Potash (36:50)

Yeah. And I think last week they might, this Monday I think he might have been live. Okay.

Dan Bernstein (36:54)

Because that. Is that just a convenience thing like I, I would. And I don't know how many teams do what the Bears do because I know last year with Eberf there was a lot of Monday virtual stuff. But you know, put, put some clothes on and stand in front of people.

Mark Potash (37:11)

I think that's convenience thing, but I have to say I think it's convenience thing, unfortunately, on both sides. Agreed. And I hate, I'll be honest, I hate that I'm, I. As a reporter. One of my, the worst traits was just connecting with people. I'm always, never been very good with that. And, but I, but so I really valued any kind of face to face, any kind of eye to eye, face to face interaction means everything to me. More so than virtually. That's how I get to know people, you know, and so I need that. So I'm, I am totally in favor. But I'll be honest, even you go around the room and say, hey, shouldn't we be doing it? Should we be doing this virtually? Shouldn't we be doing this live? And yeah, nobody wants to get up either. Nobody, none of, none of the other guys want to get up either and go up to Hell's hall for so what is sometimes just a, a half hour thing. I, I, yeah, so that does, that does make a difference. There's no doubt about it.

Matt Abaticola (38:04)

You know what you're saying before that good teams don't need leaders or good teams. All the players are leaders. And I think just thinking back and as you're talking there, thinking back to the dysfunction within Hallis hall and the organization, that, that really is a mark of a good organization that really starts with ownership all the way down to build that identity of how we do things and how things function. And if we're still having issues about dysfunctional business practices, how can you be successful putting together an organization that competes and is successful on the football field? Because that's a really hard thing to do. And if you're bad at doing the business side of it, that the football side is going to kind of fall, fall aside as well too.

Mark Potash (38:45)

Yeah, man. I mean, managing, anything that has to do with managing any kind of issue has always been problematic for the Bears. They just have no idea of how to, of, of, of optics and, and messages. Messaging. I mean, I mean, just last year. I hate to, I hate to bring up the dredge of these old things, but the whole idea of Matt Eber flu having a press conference an hour before he was fired, and then they have Kevin Warren, the guy who's supposed to save them from these embarrassing moments, doubling down on that and saying, well, you know, we didn't know at the time. You didn't, you didn't know justifying it. You didn't know an hour later that there's a possibility you might be firing your coach and you might not want to have it, they just don't get it and they don't get it from the top. I mean, they, they have really have even. I guess that's my, one of my reservations about Ben Johnson is I don't think he's really attuned. And some coaches are, some coaches are really good at managing and understanding the media and the importance of it and how it works and what we need and what works for us. I don't think Ben is quite gets that. Not that it's a negative. I'm just saying I don't, I don't know if he just really understands that. So I don't know if. I guess what I'm saying is I don't know if he's going to kind of write that part of the. But a part of it. But that is a. That is an important thing. Now you've got. Here. Here's one for you, Berns. You were talking about media. We've got a. The Bears. The Bears have a. A. A defensive coordinator who's been around forever and doesn't want to talk about the previous game at all.

Dan Bernstein (40:13)

Oh, that was weird. Oh, you guys are still on Minnesota.

Mark Potash (40:17)

Well. Well, yeah, because, I mean, right.

Dan Bernstein (40:19)

You.

Mark Potash (40:20)

We have.

Dan Bernstein (40:20)

You've been available. You know, ideally, after the game, it's the open locker room. You can talk to anybody you want, and everybody's available. But what the hell do you think is. This guy's been a head coach, too? I was really disappointed. Well, come on, man. You know how this works.

Mark Potash (40:33)

I said, I think I understand why he was, you know, 13 and 40 or whatever as a head coach, because if you can't balance two things in your head, compartmentalize two things like the previous game and the next game, how are you going to figure? Offense, defense, and special teams. It makes total sense to me. And nothing against Dennis. He's a fine defensive coordinator. But that was stunning to me that this guy, because it's Thursday, cannot, you know, can't talk about the previous game. And there are questions. There are guys in that media room who make a specific thing to ask about specific plays, and they now, they don't do it. And frankly, I hope that changes. And I hope they don't just give in to say, oh, he doesn't want to talk about it. Hey, you don't want to answer it, then talk on Monday. And let's talk about. I've always. I've been a big proponent of this as, as. As access has withered over the years. I'm fighting a losing battle saying the coordinator should talk on Monday. And we. Hey, we were around in the days when you can get Gary Croton in the. In the locker room after a game. After a game to ask him what.

Matt Abaticola (41:30)

The hell he was doing.

Mark Potash (41:31)

Yeah. Why you scored no points against the air. So anyway. But I say let them talk Monday so they get that game taken care of, and then Thursday you can look forward. I get that. But just the idea, and this is my point about that, the reason I brought up, because there's nobody to tell him, not even Ben Johnson. That's a bad look. That's not. I'm not. That's not going to be the reason they win or lose against any team. But it's a bad look. It's symptomatic of a dysfunctional organization that there's nobody there to say, hey, listen, these guys have questions that you have not talked to them about the previous, especially that Detroit game. There were a ton of questions there should have been about specific plays. Nobody asked anything because he's already kind of bullied them into not, I guess, I, I, I.

Matt Abaticola (42:12)

Well, no, here's the problem. The problem is that Ben Johnson's turned the page. And when, see, and when they're all on the same page, then they turn the page. You can't talk about the previous page.

Mark Potash (42:21)

Well, I mean, and, and I think Caleb wins a little bit. A little bit like that with regard to the player of the Week award. It's like, it's like a theme now. Let's move on. But I will say this, though. Normally I'd say, yeah, that is kind of not a great thing, but at least it's Ben Johnson. At least, you know, there's somebody they listen to, somebody who does other things that are good, you know, so, so, so I, I'm not as concerned about, about him setting that tone, but I do think it is worth pointing out that this is some another area where they just really have no idea how to manage things. They're bad managers. The Bears have had bad management. And to be a winning team, unless you're got, you know, unless you've got, you know, great overwhelming talent, you need to manage things, including, you know, coaches, the coordinators leaving under suspicious circumstance.

Dan Bernstein (43:16)

You had two assistant coaches fired because.

Mark Potash (43:19)

All these weird pants off and just losing and this and that. You've got to be able to manage things, and then they're just not good at it. So I guess what I'm saying is just, you know, for overviews, they just have to a lot bigger hill to climb than most teams do. But they're not as they are as they're currently constituted. They are not incapable of climbing that hill. And I will say this. My, my bar, the low bar I've set for the, for the Ben Johnson era is of success is three consecutive winning seasons or three consecutive playoff seasons. That's a fair, that's a fair bar. But listen, that's something that the Bears have not done since 1988, and every team in the league, except for the Cleveland Browns, who weren't even started until 99, has done since then. Many of them. So what I'm saying is it's Something the Bears haven't done that they should be doing. And it's something that Ben Johnson basically did in Detroit. They had three consecutive winning seasons, 22, 23, 23, 24, mostly because of his offense, something they had not done since the early 90s under Wayne Fonts.

Matt Abaticola (44:24)

Does that start this season? Is that this year? Is that this year? This season should be the first of a winning season for what? For Ben Johnson and the Bears if they have to win. If the bar is three consecutive winning seasons.

Mark Potash (44:36)

Right.

Matt Abaticola (44:36)

So does that start this year?

Mark Potash (44:38)

Well, I've got them at 8 and 9 right now, but it can't. It can't. This can be a 9 and 8 season. If, if the schedule can continue. If, if the schedule continues to look better than it did in the beginning of the season, as it does with Nick. Was it Nick Bosa out and. And quarter.

Dan Bernstein (44:56)

Burrows out.

Mark Potash (44:57)

And even though the. And the Bears, you know, not being as injured as they are, if the schedule. Yeah, they. This can be. This can be the first one. 9, 9 and 8 would. 9 and 8 could be the start. But anyway, that's that to me, that is. I can't remember what the question was, but to me that is the bar of. For his. And I guess what I'm saying is do I. If you ask me will I think. Do I. Will he accomplish that right now, as we stand today, week four, 20, 25? I say yes, I think he will accomplish that.

Dan Bernstein (45:26)

So it's some optimism, albeit guarded, and the bar set low does emerge then. And the question I also have is when this success occurs with whom and how many failed high draft picks can be involved because you can't buy your way out of bad drafting and your salary cap and your dead money and all that will not let you ultimately buy your way out of bad drafting. And with every week that goes by and the number of second and third round picks that remain inactive or healthy scratches that sooner rather than later that Shemar Turner's got to play. You didn't draft Ozzie Tropillo to be a reserve depth guy. These guys are supposed to start and contribute and be important for you. And you've already done away with Valous Jones. You know, Kieran Amogaje doesn't even look like he's on track to be an NFL player at this point. So, like this, it's. This stuff hurts you quickly and it's really hard to recover from draft misses and I'm afraid that there's no end in sight to them.

Mark Potash (46:36)

Well, a lot of that will Go. I think a lot. We'll see what hat. You got to wait and see. You know, you got to wait and see what happens after year one because this is where they redid their backfield in Detroit. You know, they got rid of both their starters and got Gibbs and Montgomery. They got rid, they didn't get rid of. They couldn't agree with was it Hawkinson and they picked up laporta. They got Jameson Williams. They made a lot of changes after the year one. A lot of, you know, guys got better. And so I think that's why you have to wait and see what happens. I think year two, the draft of year two should be more productive and who knows who will actually, you know, maybe Ben Johnson will be a little bit more. Have a little bit more authority in doing that. But also there are guys on this team like Aman Ross St. Brown who blossom from that he inherited. And, and I think you're. That's, that's a factor too is that there's players that you don't know yet. I mean we're so early in the process. It's only three games that, that we don't know. Some of these, like Loveland, I mean, you know, you don't know what's he going to develop into. So you, I think you have to wait and see exactly what happens with how many players can Ben Johnson make a player out of just because he's really good at offense. And, and, and then you combine that with some of the, with the changes. Like I said, goes back to the very, the thing we talked about at the very top. He's learning. He's learning this roster. He's learning who he can win with and who he can't. And then you'll see that. That. So I, I guess I gotta, I'm saying I hate to give that kind of cliche answer. You gotta wait and see to year two to see exactly who's going to be here. But I guess in general burns of your point. The point is not as many as you think would be. Right. Right. Be on the next Bears playoff team. I'll say that a few really key guys. But some guys, you know, your Tremaine, Edmonds, DJ Moore, even Montez Sweat. Well, some of those main guys were main, main guys here now be you in other in previous regimes you'd say yeah, they got to be part of it. But this one, I say they're at the top of my list to not be part of it.

Matt Abaticola (48:37)

Correct. Yeah, I agree 100%. Mark. This has been great really appreciate your time and a lot of fun catching up with you and just hearing from you and your. Your Bears perspective on things.

Mark Potash (48:45)

Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Burns, he always good to see you. Glad you're doing well. Hope you're doing well.

Dan Bernstein (48:49)

And I am. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate you saying that.

Mark Potash (48:52)

Thanks again, guys. I really appreciate it.

Matt Abaticola (48:53)

All right. Thank you, Mark.

Dan Bernstein (48:54)

That is Mark Potash. You can find his work@markpotash.net. the name of his website is Got a minute? Because that would be his little intro pulling guys aside. Hey, you got a minute? And next thing you know, you find information that you didn't know.

Matt Abaticola (49:10)

Hey, so Darnell writes on the injury report with an elbow. If he doesn't go. And it's like.

Dan Bernstein (49:17)

It's Theo Benedict Benedet at the moment.

Matt Abaticola (49:19)

Which is. Which is awful, right?

Dan Bernstein (49:21)

Yeah, because. But we knew that.

Matt Abaticola (49:23)

But it's just terrible.

Dan Bernstein (49:24)

He's been up and Trappillo's been down. So unless something is happening. Practicing in practice where Tropillo is passing him. Yeah, it's Benedict on the right. But they expect him to be okay, like, as long as he doesn't need surgery. I think he's. Because they were very concerned when it happened that it was worse than it was. But keep an eye on it.

Matt Abaticola (49:44)

We'll see.

Dan Bernstein (49:45)

Keep an eye on it. So that.

Matt Abaticola (49:47)

That was fun.

Mark Potash (49:47)

That was.

Dan Bernstein (49:47)

It was really good. That was good pots. He's an og.

Matt Abaticola (49:50)

Yeah, he is.

Dan Bernstein (49:50)

He is an OG who isn't here to. To cheerlead. Even though he's a lifelong Bears fan as well as a lifelong Bears reporter.

Matt Abaticola (49:59)

I just wish he shared some thoughts on the McCaskeys.

Dan Bernstein (50:04)

Like I say, we found out today that they only increased their ownership, not decreasing it.

Matt Abaticola (50:09)

Congratulations.

Dan Bernstein (50:10)

We'll leave you with that.

Matt Abaticola (50:11)

Congratulations, Chicago.

Dan Bernstein (50:12)

Congratulations on Forward Progress, a Chicago Bears podcast. Tomorrow we will have our top 10 Raiders of all time. I have a lot of work to do because I have a few. But I. This is. This is one that's going to take some creativity and some work to find my list of top 10 Raiders. That's going to be tomorrow. 10.

Mark Potash (50:36)

219, 219.

Matt Abaticola (50:42)

Forward progress, a Chicago Bears podcast with Dan Bernstein and Matt Abeticola on 312 Sports.