Bob Lee Part 4: The Made-for-TV Murder Trial

Summary

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Foundering: Bob Lee Part 4: The Made-for-TV Murder Trial

Podcast: Foundering (Bloomberg)
Date: April 30, 2026
Host: Sean Nguyen

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the sensational, high-profile murder trial of Nima Momeni, accused of killing Cash App founder Bob Lee in San Francisco. Host Sean Nguyen takes listeners inside the courtroom drama, unpacking the prosecution and defense strategies, reviewing pivotal testimonies and evidence, and offering unprecedented insight into the deliberations of the jury through an anonymous juror’s account. The episode interrogates not just how but why Bob Lee was killed, the narrative battles that shaped the trial, and what the verdict ultimately signaled about truth, justice, and media-driven perceptions of San Francisco.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Atmosphere and the Defendant's Demeanor

• Nima Momeni’s Attitude: Throughout the trial, Nima was noted for his confident, even upbeat demeanor, both in jail and in court, a fact that drew media attention and fueled public intrigue.
  • “He struts in. He always struts in, you know, kind of confident of himself.” – Paul Kuroda, photographer [02:01]
  • Nima’s photos in jail, smiling and posing, led to lawsuits against press outlets who published them.

2. Prosecution's Case and Evidence

• Overwhelming Evidence: The prosecution charged Momeni with first-degree murder, citing DNA, surveillance videos, and a kitchen knife traced back to his sister Kazar’s set.

  • "The evidence was stacked against Nima." – Sean Nguyen [04:03]
  • “By driving Bob to a secluded location and bringing a knife with him, Nima showed premeditation.” – Prosecution’s narrative [04:03]

• Key Argument: The prosecution framed the motive as Nima’s anger over his belief Bob contributed to the sexual assault of his sister, Kazar.

  • “Nima Momeni believes Bob Lee contributed to his little sister being sexually assaulted or raped. And that pissed him off.” – Omid Talai, lead prosecutor [16:27]

3. The Defense’s Strategy

• Self-Defense Claim: The defense painted Nima and Bob as friends who fell out after a “bad joke” and insisted Bob initiated the violent incident, arguing for self-defense.

  • “Self defense looked plausible.” – Brad Cohen, defense attorney [13:53]
  • “The defense argued that Bob was sleep deprived and on cocaine...They said that Bob pulled a knife on Nima, but Nima grabbed Bob's hand… and redirected it back towards Bob.” – Sean Nguyen [14:40]

• Doubts About Motive: Even jurors struggled to determine motive, with some questioning why Nima targeted Bob, not Jeremy Boyvin (the alleged drug dealer and possible perpetrator of sexual assault against Kazar).

  • "They said none of us could agree why the hell Nima would kill Bob. Why wouldn't you kill Jeremy? That's the guy your sister said raped her. Why go after Bob when he wasn't even there?" – Anonymous Juror [15:50]

4. Key Components of the Trial

a) Kazar Momeni’s Testimony

• Highly Anticipated, Ultimately Unhelpful for Defense:
  • Kazar, the defendant’s sister and purportedly the emotional center of the case, was a hostile and evasive witness. She denied knowing anything about the murder or the supposed motive, blaming her memory lapses on heavy drug use.
  • “My brother has not killed Bob Lee and I don't know anything else about the case.” – Kazar Momeni (via voice actor reading trial transcript) [20:43]
  • Prosecutors used her to authenticate text messages suggesting she had warned Bob about her brother’s anger.

b) Secret Police Video

• Critical Evidence:
  • Six days after the killing, Nima was surveilled outside his attorney’s office. He mimicked the very stabbing motions and "throwing" action (matching the evidence of the knife tossed over a fence).
  • “I have never and probably never will see a murderer reenacting the crime that he had committed...on a bright, sunny day in public.” – Omid Talai [25:40]
  • The jury found the "tossing" gesture especially damning.
  • "That was goddamn suspicious." – Anonymous Juror [26:13]

c) Nima Momeni’s Testimony

• A Rare Move:
  • Nima took the stand, describing a late-night argument and claiming Bob attacked him over a joke; Nima said he reacted in self-defense.
  • Initial impression was calm and credible, but heavy, confrontational cross-examination led him to become defensive, flippant, and sarcastic.
  • “He was so belligerent and standoffish with the prosecution's questions...I never saw someone so unwilling to answer the simplest of questions. He was like, why are you asking that question?” – Anonymous Juror [33:47]
  • “The prosecutor got Nima to react basically exactly the way he wanted him to.” – Sean Nguyen [34:21]

d) The “Knife as Cocaine Tool” Video

• Defense Exhibit:
  • The defense presented a video allegedly showing Bob using a knife to sniff cocaine prior to the killing, to bolster the claim he habitually carried a knife.
  • “Very clearly in the video that we showed, no one has an excuse for what is in his hand that he's holding. That clearly looks to me like a knife.” – Brad Cohen [36:02]
  • Most jurors remained unconvinced by this evidence, believing it more likely Bob used a key or USB stick, and found the story unlikely.
  • "We know no fool is going to snort off a knife...People don't carry bare knives in their pockets." – Anonymous Juror [39:18]

5. Jury Deliberations: A Battle of Perspectives

• Length and Intensity:

  • Deliberations lasted 8-9 days (spread over weeks), marked by heated arguments, frustration, and emotional breakdowns.
  • “The first few days were a waste. There was screaming and shouting and crying.” – Juror [37:23]
  • “I've never had a murder case take longer than two days...The longest deliberation I've ever had was 10 days.” – Brad Cohen [40:54]

• Sticking Points:

  • One persistent holdout juror believed Bob had the knife, others disagreed forcibly; the group scrutinized every piece of evidence, rewatched videos, and debated the definitions of willful, premeditated, and deliberate required for first degree murder.

• Turning Point:

  • A personal story about wrongful conviction swayed the holdout, allowing the group to reach consensus.

6. The Verdict and Its Aftermath

• Outcome:
  • The jury found Nima Momeni guilty of second-degree murder, not first-degree—a distinction largely hinging on their inability to agree the killing was deliberate and premeditated.
  • “Some of us said first degree feels right. Obviously there was some planning, but we have to do what the law says. Even though we feel we really want first degree, second degree is okay too.” – Juror [45:56]
  • The sentence: 16 years to life (vs. 26 years to life for first-degree).
• Reactions:
  • Relief for Bob Lee’s family; "vindication" after a grueling ordeal and media circus.
  • Grief and denial for Nima’s family; his mother insisted on his innocence post-verdict.

7. Media Spin and San Francisco’s Reputation

• Persistent Narrative:
  • Despite the clarity brought by the verdict, coverage and online discourse (including tweets from Elon Musk) continued to tie the murder to broader problems with San Francisco’s "lawlessness."
  • Prosecutors resentfully noted the damaging narrative, insisting the trial proved the justice system’s functionality.
  • “We do what we're supposed to do in this city when it comes to, you know, accountability.” – DA Brooke Jenkins [47:04]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Nima’s persona:
  “He’s almost proud to be him, you know, even though what he did, you know, he’s proud to be him.” – Paul Kuroda (photographer) [02:21]

• On motive:
  “Nima Momeni believes Bob Lee contributed to his little sister being sexually assaulted or raped. And that pissed him off. That made him act as one would when they are pissed off and angry. That's the motive.” – Omid Talai, prosecutor [16:27]

• On Kazar’s testimony:
  “My brother has not killed Bob Lee and I don't know anything else about the case.” – Kazar Momeni [20:43]

• On the key video evidence:
  “That was goddamn suspicious.” – Anonymous Juror reacting to Nima mimicking knife toss [26:13]

• On Nima’s testimony:
  “Oh my fucking God, he did it. He did it. It's so obvious. My bullshit meter was red flagging. His story keeps changing.” – Anonymous Juror [33:49]

• On jury atmosphere:
  “The first few days were a waste. There was screaming and shouting and crying.” – Juror [37:23]

• On controversial narratives:
  “Even though the substance of those conversations had nothing to do with what killed Bob, they continued.” – Sean Nguyen [47:44]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:10 – Overview of Nima’s appearance and demeanor in court
• 03:19 – 04:03 – Prosecution outlines the overwhelming evidence
• 10:53 – 13:15 – Reconstructing the hours before the murder, conflicting testimony about motive
• 17:15 – 22:24 – Focus on Kazar Momeni’s critical yet evasive testimony
• 24:15 – 27:36 – Analysis of the secret surveillance video showing Nima mimicking stabbing
• 29:12 – 34:21 – Nima Momeni’s testimony on the stand: defense strategy and prosecution pushback
• 35:54 – 36:37 – Defense introduces drug video to support self-defense claim
• 37:08 – 43:36 – Jury deliberations, holdouts, pivotal personal story breaks deadlock
• 45:01 – 46:16 – The verdict is read: second-degree murder
• 46:46 – 47:44 – Family reactions; enduring impact of media myths about San Francisco

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Conclusions

The episode offers a tightly reported, nuanced analysis of a case that gripped both the tech world and wider public. The trial, which could have been straightforward, became a made-for-TV saga with unreliable witnesses, salacious rumors, complex evidence, and a cast of colorful legal and media characters. The jury’s second-degree murder verdict reflects the ambiguities they confronted: overwhelming evidence Nima killed Bob Lee, but insufficient clarity around premeditation. The coverage captures not only the verdict, but the persistent disconnect between what actually happened and the narrative spun in public discourse about San Francisco, justice, and high-profile crime.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[Omid Talai]

The thing about AI for business, it may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM, we've seen this firsthand. But by embedding AI across hr, IT and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slash repetitive tasks, and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business. IBM,

[Sean Nguyen]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News previously on Tuesday San Francisco.

[Dane Reinstad]

Hey, it's the police.

[Omid Talai]

Hey, who did this to you?

[Dane Reinstad]

They're saying he took a kitchen knife from his sister's apartment to his car with Bob, got in the car, went somewhere else, and then attacked him. It just didn't make sense. Didn't make sense to me.

[Brad Cohen]

All of a sudden, his name became

[Juror]

household word for the worst of reasons.

[Sean Nguyen]

And it just pissed me off. Nima Momeni's murder trial started on October 14, 2024, a year and a half after the killing. I was there for the entirety of the trial, and it would ultimately run for eight weeks. Nima showed up to court every day in a suit. He was seated alongside a large group of defense attorneys. He listened intently and took notes. If you didn't go in knowing he was on trial for murder, you might think he was one of the lawyers.

[Omid Talai]

Well, he certainly doesn't seem sad. The way he walks in. He struts in. I mean, he always struts in, you know, kind of confident of himself.

[Sean Nguyen]

This is Paul Kuroda, a seasoned photojournalist in the Bay Area. He took photos of Nima showing up at his arraignment with his chest puffed out and arms swinging. He also took photos of Nima in his jail cell.

[Omid Talai]

When I met him in jail, yeah, he was upbeat.

[Sean Nguyen]

Upbeat attitude.

[Omid Talai]

You know, he poses for me in the jail cell, and he gave me several different looks. He's almost proud to be him, you know, even though what he did, you know, he's proud to be him.

[Sean Nguyen]

The New York Post published these photos under the headline, quote, bone chilling Photos show Cash app founder Bob Lee's alleged killer, Nima Momeni, smiling in jail. By the way, Nima has sued the photographer and the New York Post, among other outlets that publish these photos. And as of this recording, that lawsuit is still pending. For the first year and a half, that smile, that strut, were the only insights we had into how Nima felt about any of this. He never gave a statement. He also turned down my request for an interview. Here's Omi Talai the lead prosecutor prior to his arrest.

[Omid Talai]

As dramatic as it might sound, is when I personally started preparing for this as a self defense case and for my cross examination of this lying story he would tell where he had to defend himself.

[Sean Nguyen]

How did you know?

[Omid Talai]

There's only two defenses really, who done it. The other defense is self defense. Knowing that we had him driving Bob under the bridge and as the last person with him, he wasn't going to be able to claim somebody else committed this crime. He was going to have to claim, yes, I stabbed him, but I did so because I was in fear of my own safety.

[Sean Nguyen]

The evidence was stacked against Nima. After the police found Bob bleeding out on the sidewalk, they followed a trail of blood to the murder weapon, a kitchen knife that had been tossed over a fence. When investigators tested the knife, they found Bob's DNA on the blade and Nima's on the handle. The brand of the knife also matched a set from Kazar's kitchen. Then there was all the video. Video of Bob and Nima leaving the apartment together, of Bob climbing into Nima's car, of the car pulling into an empty lot under the Bay Bridge, of the car speeding off from the scene of the crime, of Bob stumbling away before collapsing. I mean, it was a lot. The prosecution charged Nima with first degree murder. They argued that by driving Bob to a secluded location and bringing a knife with him, Nima showed premeditation. If they convicted Nima on murder one, they would be able to put him away for 26 years. It looked to many like it should have been a pretty straightforward case.

[Brad Cohen]

This should have been a three week trial.

[Sean Nguyen]

This is Brad Cohen, one of Nima's defense attorneys.

[Brad Cohen]

It was ridiculous. This is a crazy case. I thought that it was off the rails and I think that this should have been a three week trial. That turned into a three month trial.

[Sean Nguyen]

The trial of Nima Momeni was anything but a straightforward proceeding. The jury heard from a parade of unreliable narrators. Their stories filled with frustrating plot holes. They followed twists and turns. They watched not one, but two secret videos. There were salacious details about drug use and around the clock partying. It became a media circus. Here's lead prosecutor Omid Talai.

[Omid Talai]

I felt it from the first day in court at the arraignment when I was walking through a sea of reporters trying to get into the courtroom where I couldn't really get out of the courtroom because reporters were blocking the exit.

[Sean Nguyen]

Despite the international attention, almost nothing has been reported about the people who would ultimately decide Nima's fate. The jury the jurors included a restaurant owner, a Costco greeter, a Harvard graduate. A few of them worked in tech. One of them was knowledgeable about drugs and had colorful stories. San Francisco is a small town, so I've run into a few of them out and about, and I've been surprised when I've approached them that they seem so standoffish, almost scared. It turns out the jury made a pact not to say anything to the press. So until now, we haven't known what mattered to them at the trial. At what points did they say, oh, this seems good for Nima, or oh, this seems very bad for Nima. But now, for the first time, one of the jurors spoke to me anonymously. So on today's episode, we're going to walk through the trial of Nima. Momeni will focus on four key components, two testimonies and two pieces of evidence. These were some of the most dramatic moments of the trial, and I think they'll help you understand what it was the jury was being asked to consider and what ultimately mattered to them. We'll hear from the prosecution and the defense team. We'll get the official narrative of how Bob Lee died, and we'll try to understand why he died, what his accused killer may have been thinking, and what this trial meant for San Francisco. I'm Sean Nguyen and this is foundering the Killing of Bob Lee. Get the news you need in just 15 minutes.

[Juror]

Start your day with Bloomberg Daybreak, the podcast with a global view on the stories that matter. I'm Nathan Hager.

[Sean Nguyen]

And I'm Karen Moscow. Join us each morning for curated stories on current events, politics, business and foreign

[Brad Cohen]

relations, plus one conversation on the day's

[Juror]

biggest developments, all in just 15 minutes.

[Sean Nguyen]

Subscribe to Bloomberg Daybreak for a precise, thoughtful take on the stories that matter.

[Juror]

Listen to Bloomberg Daybreak each morning on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen.

[Sean Nguyen]

One of the most frustrating things about Bob Lee's death is that the supposed inciting incident, the thing that prosecutors would claim got Nima so mad, was a very specific moment that neither Nima nor Bob was actually present for. Let me explain. It was the last day Bob was alive, April 3, 2023. Bob and Kazar spent a lot of time together that day, from morning till night, along with another guy, Bob's friend and alleged drug dealer. His name is Jeremy Boyvin. Jeremy Boyvin declined to be interviewed for this podcast, but I want you to remember him because he'll be an important figure later on. It's three in the afternoon. And they're all hanging out at Boyvin's apartment, which is in a luxury high rise. There are lots of drugs around and Kazar is taking several of them. On April 3, the day before Bob Lee's death, she was under the influence of cocaine, nitrous oxide, also known as whippets, as well as LSD and ghb. I just want to point out this is a Monday afternoon. At around 5pm, Bob heads out, leaving Kazar and Jeremy Boyvin behind. Hours pass that night. Around 9pm, Bob gets a call. It's Kazar's brother Nima. He's upset. We mentioned this phone call in the previous episode. Nima was interrogating Bob, asking questions like what were you guys doing? What was going on with my sister? What did she take? How about the girls getting naked? Later, Bob's friend, who had overheard the call, testified on the witness standing, he said it was really strange. We weren't there. And the idea that it was girls getting naked was so far from the vibe and situation that I saw and experienced. Here's prosecutor Dane.

[Dane Reinstad]

The murder was not a question of what had actually happened to Jeremy Boyvin's apartment. That's maybe the subject of another criminal case. But what mattered for purposes of our case and our trial was what Neema Momeni thought had happened in Jeremy Boyvin's apartment.

[Sean Nguyen]

It appears that after Bob left Boyvin's apartment, Kazar had a girlfriend join her. Jeremy Boyvin served them both ghb, the so called date rape drug, which they drank voluntarily. Kazar said that he described it to her as ecstasy that lasts 15 minutes. So she took three shots of it, then she passed out. When she came to, she was upset and confused. She suspected that she may have been sexually assaulted. The details of the alleged assault are fuzzy.

[Dane Reinstad]

She testified herself that she was very unclear on the details, that at one point she woke up and her pants were partway pulled down. She believed she'd been sexually assaulted. But I think she herself, because of her lack of consciousness or hazy memory around it, didn't know exactly what had happened.

[Sean Nguyen]

In some text messages, Nima refers to what happened to Kazar as rape. And he may have thought that Bob was involved because remember, Nima wasn't there. He couldn't have known what time Bob left the party or when exactly his sister took jhb. After Nima and Bob spoke on the phone, Bob sent Nima a text inviting him to a strip Club. At 12.30am, two hours before the stabbing, Bob heads over to Kazar's apartment in millennium tower. At 2am Bob is seen on camera leaving with Nima. About half an hour later, Bob was dying on the streets.

[Brad Cohen]

What the hell happened here?

[Sean Nguyen]

This is Brad Cohen, one of Nima's defense attorneys.

[Brad Cohen]

These guys are getting along. They're two good buddies. They, you know, they're in the elevator, they look like they're having fun. They're, they're talking to each other, they're laughing. The guy's saying, hey, do you want to go to a strip joint? And the next thing in, in 30 minutes later, someone's stabbed and dead and the other guy is getting charged.

[Sean Nguyen]

The footage of the actual stabbing is very hard to see. It's dark and grainy. Taken from a NEST camera in a nearby apartment window. Bob and Nima are just pixelated blobs. Bob is wearing black and Nima is wearing white. You can see them standing around for several minutes, and then very quickly, the figure in white advances three or four times towards the figure in black. It's just a few quick movements. This is the best glimpse we get into the altercation between the two men. It leaves room for some ambiguity.

[Brad Cohen]

Self defense looked plausible.

[Sean Nguyen]

Cohen, it should be said, is a high profile attorney known especially for representing hip hop artists. He's obtained federal pardons for Lil Wayne and Kodak Black from President Trump, whom he's also represented. They actually go pretty far back. Here's Cohen competing on season two of the Apprentice.

[Brad Cohen]

My plan backfired. Mr. Trump thought that that was a stupid decision.

[Omid Talai]

I was the only individual who went

[Brad Cohen]

into the boardroom without a bag.

[Sean Nguyen]

Nima was in fact represented by five lawyers, a testament to how seriously his family took this case. The defense argued that Bob was sleep deprived and on cocaine, which made him erratic. They said that Bob pulled a knife on Nima, but Nima grabbed Bob's hand with the knife still in it and redirected it back towards Bob.

[Dane Reinstad]

Because Nima Momeni had killed the only witness, there wasn't somebody who could say exactly what happened.

[Sean Nguyen]

These are the prosecutors. Again, did self defense ever feel plausible to you?

[Omid Talai]

Um, plausib. Like, did I believe it might be self defense? Is that what you're asking? Like that?

[Sean Nguyen]

Yeah.

[Omid Talai]

No.

[Sean Nguyen]

While the DNA on the knife and the security footage suggests that Nima killed Bob, it still leaves open the very big question. Why? Here's Cohen.

[Brad Cohen]

I think that the state had no motive. They were scrambling. They knew that self defense was definitely an issue here because these two guys are getting along in the elevator. There's no real fight between Them. Nobody's arguing. No one testified. There was this big fight, big blowout.

[Sean Nguyen]

The juror I spoke to said that at the start of the trial, the entire jury was confused about the motive.

[Juror]

They said none of us could agree why the hell Nima would kill Bob. Why wouldn't you kill Jeremy? That's the guy your sister said raped her. Why go after Bob when he wasn't even there?

[Sean Nguyen]

Jeremy Boyvin has not been charged with sexually assaulting Kazar. And as a reminder, he declined to be interviewed for this podcast. Whether or not they knew it, the state had an uphill battle ahead of them. Can you tell me what you see the motive as?

[Omid Talai]

To me, it's not convoluted at all. I think it's very simple.

[Sean Nguyen]

Omita lie again. The lead prosecutor on the case, Nima

[Omid Talai]

Momeni, believes Bob Lee contributed to his little sister being sexually assaulted or raped. And that pissed him off. That made him angry. That made him act as one would when they are pissed off and angry. That's the motive.

[Sean Nguyen]

For Talai, there was no shortage of evidence pointing towards Nima as the aggressor.

[Omid Talai]

It was him driving Bob Lee to the location, him clearly being the last person with Bob. And the text messages from Kazar to Bob where she said that her brother came down very hard on Bob and that he handled himself with class.

[Sean Nguyen]

Which brings us to the first of our four key components of the trial. The testimony of Nima's sister, Kazar Momeni, for the press. Kazar was the star of the show. She was cast as a glamorous femme fatale who somehow drove her brother to kill Bob.

[Omid Talai]

Somehow everyone in this trial seems like they're made for tv.

[Sean Nguyen]

This is photographer Jung Ho Kim, who I met in the courthouse. Specifically, he had been asked to take photos of Kazar. Can you say which outlet sent you out there?

[Omid Talai]

I was working for Zuma Press with the photos going to the New York Post.

[Sean Nguyen]

Okay, and what kind of photos were they asking you to get?

[Omid Talai]

In this particular case, the specific request was for full body photos of Kazar Momeni.

[Sean Nguyen]

Why full body?

[Omid Talai]

Glamour.

[Sean Nguyen]

The first day of Kazar's testimony, she showed up to court wearing oversized sunglasses, stiletto pumps, and a perfectly tailored blue silk dress. The Daily Mail said it was Valentino. A source close to Nima's defense team told me that from Nima's arrest onward, the family was instructed to dress like they were attending a funeral. Kazar dressed like she was going to a movie premiere.

[Omid Talai]

A lot of the media has focused on her as an interesting character because visually there's a lot to work with there. And I think in terms of her testimony, it's become quite drama filled and salacious.

[Sean Nguyen]

Now to the latest out of San Francisco in day four of testimony in the murder trial for tech executive and cash app founder Bob Lee. Kazar was there to support her brother, that much was clear. But she was also a critical witness for the prosecution since her testimony could provide a motive. Here's Omith Talai, the lead prosecutor on this case.

[Omid Talai]

She set this in motion. She told her brother things happened to her. Those things upset her brother. She's not to blame for Bob being killed. It's Nima Momenti. But she in my mind set this all in motion.

[Sean Nguyen]

But she was an uncooperative witness. Leading up to the trial. She refused to speak with the authorities. Here's the other prosecutor, Dane Reinstad.

[Dane Reinstad]

She had declined to ever speak with us. She had declined to speak with the police. It meant that to a large extent we were going in blind as to what exactly it was that she was going to say.

[Sean Nguyen]

Hazar Momeni was soft spoken initially. She placed her clutch and some oversized sunglasses on the witness stand. Cameras and recording devices were banned from the courtroom. So I have a voice actor reading the transcript.

[Nima Momeni]

Have you followed the news? I've stopped watching the news. Have you heard the claim that your brother killed Bob Lee but in self defense? I have stopped watching the news.

[Dane Reinstad]

I remember asking her at the very beginning, when was it that you first found out that your brother was the one that killed Bob? And that was the answer to which she said, well, my brother wasn't the one who killed Bob.

[Nima Momeni]

Prosecution, are you learning today for the first time that your brother has killed Bob Kazar? My brother has not killed Bob Lee and I don't know anything else about the case.

[Dane Reinstad]

By that point it had been clearly telegraphed that it was a self defense claim and that Nima was in fact the one that had killed Bob. It was just a matter of how he had killed him. And the fact that she appeared not to be up to speed with that being the narrative that the defense was putting forward was surprising, not the answer I expected.

[Sean Nguyen]

The back and forth between Reinstad and Cazar continues this way. It's repetitive and evasive. She says more than once that she knows nothing and remembers little, blaming the cocktail of drugs she was on prosecution.

[Nima Momeni]

Was your brother also doing cocaine with you? I did not see him do any prosecution. You texted him? No. Bitch blow messed up your mind and makes you act lunatic. I don't Know why I sent that text message? Prosecution reading her text. Rape case. Nima, you're fucking psychotic. No one enjoys that company. You scare me, Kazar. We're brother and sister. We bicker when we talk. I have no idea what this is about.

[Sean Nguyen]

The other reason the prosecution needed Kazar was that she sent several potentially incriminating text messages shortly after Bob was killed, including texting Bob, sorry, Nima came down way hard on you. And texting Nima, Nima, you scare me sometimes.

[Dane Reinstad]

Kazar was a hostile witness to us, certainly, but one that we affirmatively wanted to put on in our case. Primarily to authenticate the text messages that she had sent, but also to provide some of the context and color around what had happened leading up to the murder.

[Omid Talai]

What Dane did with Kazar, and really, within the first 10, 15 minutes while I'm sitting there, I'm a spectator like everyone else. That was one of the. The few moments that I thought, I think we're fine. Not only did he so calmly and methodically kind of surgically take her apart and get all those text messages that we wanted in the defense. Looked like their heads were going to explode.

[Brad Cohen]

Listen, she testified the way she testified.

[Sean Nguyen]

Brad Cohen again from the defense team.

[Brad Cohen]

Oh, she's going to answer everything for the defense and nothing for the state. Well, it's her brother.

[Sean Nguyen]

A source close to the defense told me that after Kazar's testimony, because she turned out to be such an unreliable witness, Nima's lawyers distanced themselves from her. After her three days on the witness stand, we didn't see Kazar again, not even on the day of the verdict. So the first key component of the trial. Kzar's testimony, seemingly not helpful to Nima. Which brings us to our second key component. A secret video recording made by the cops. The prosecution wanted the jury to pay attention to Nima's behavior after the stabbing. And for this, they introduced new evidence. A video of Nima made six days after Bob was killed, but before Nima was arrested. Omid Talai, the lead prosecutor, was at the police station when he saw it for the first time.

[Omid Talai]

I remember Sergeant Goff calling, saying, hey, I'm headed back from South Bay. You gotta see this.

[Sean Nguyen]

Sergeant David Goff is an undercover cop who had been following Nima since the day after Bob was killed. Goff had recorded something he wanted to

[Omid Talai]

show the prosecutors, and he wouldn't even really explain it to us. He just wanted us to see it. The homicide inspectors do not have these fancy offices. They're all kind of in cubes cubicles next to each other. So we were standing, and sergeant Goff put in the video, and we just pressed play, and I think a couple times he said, just wait. Just wait. Like, just. Just wait for it. Wait for it.

[Sean Nguyen]

That day, Gough followed Nima from a sandwich shop to a parking lot, which happened to be at his criminal defense attorney's office. He filmed Nima standing there chatting with a private investigator who worked for his attorney. In the video, Nima is talking, talking, smoking a cigarette. And then he makes three quick, horizontal jabbing motions. Then he seems to mimic throwing something in the air. His gestures map onto the evidence pretty neatly. Bob was indeed stabbed three times, and the knife was tossed to the other side of a fence.

[Omid Talai]

I think I laughed inside, you know, thinking, like, this is absurd. I have never and probably never will see a murderer reenacting the crime that he had committed a few days before on a bright, sunny day in public and then throw the murder weapon.

[Dane Reinstad]

And I think equally important is what he's not showing, right? He doesn't reenact any kind of a struggle. He doesn't reenact any sort of pushing or redirecting in any way.

[Sean Nguyen]

In other words, Nima's movements on the video don't resemble a struggle where he's defending himself. The jury member I spoke to told me that in the deliberation room, they weren't completely convinced by the jabbing motion Nima made that it looked like it could have been a stabbing movement or a punch. But when Nima appears to toss an invisible knife, that felt unmistakable to them. The juror told me, quote, that was goddamn suspicious. Interestingly, the juror also had this to say about the undercover cop.

[Juror]

All the women were going, oh, my God, Sergeant Gough, there's no way he can do plainclothes work. How do you not notice you're in a public parking lot, and there's a guy who's really hot in a car filming you anyway.

[Sean Nguyen]

The defense made a motion to suppress this video, arguing that it was protected by attorney client privilege. Ultimately, the judge decided that the video was fair game. The defense was furious about this ruling. Here's Cohen.

[Brad Cohen]

That a conversation with an attorney or an attorney's employee in a parking lot that's empty, where there's no one around except for a police officer who is spying on this attorney client privilege conversation, and to be able to use that, I think, is unusual. I think that's going to come flying back on appeal.

[Sean Nguyen]

Coming up next, we'll answer one of the biggest questions looming over the trial Would Nima take the stand? That's after the break. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI.

[Brad Cohen]

There's going to be two types of

[Omid Talai]

companies, those who are great at AI

[Juror]

and those that went out of business because they weren't.

[Sean Nguyen]

How do we build a future that is human centered? I'm Rana El Kalyubi, and on my podcast, Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future, and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find Pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. When the defense called Nima Momeni to the stand, there were audible gasps throughout the courtroom because often defendants don't testify in their own trials. We didn't know for sure whether we'd hear from him until that very moment. Under oath, Nima told the story of the night Bob died. He said that at 2 in the morning, he and Bob left Kzara's place together, looking for the next party. They were heading to a strip club. Bob brought a beer into the car they were driving and as Nima tells it, Bob spilled the beer, which is why they pulled over.

[Nima Momeni]

NIMA we were outside. He wanted us to go back to his place to go grab more stuff. I was resistant, just trying to avoid it, to get out of it. I made what you call a bad joke, now that I look back on it. DEFENSE what was that? If it was my last night in town, I would go hang out with my family instead of fucking around in strip clubs.

[Sean Nguyen]

It was Bob's last night in town because he was supposed to fly back to Miami the next day.

[Nima Momeni]

DEFENSE how did he take that? NIMA not good at all. It just set him off.

[Sean Nguyen]

Nima Momeni testified that it was Bob Lee who attacked him with a knife, he said over a bad joke that he had made. Nima said that he told Bob if it were.

[Nima Momeni]

Defense what does Mr. Lee do? Nima he's yelling, cussing at me, starts going around, circling, moving around me and gets in my face.

[Sean Nguyen]

He says Bob Lee went from 0 to 100 after hearing that from, pulled a knife from his pocket and attacked him.

[Nima Momeni]

NIMA I was scared for my life. I had to defend myself. DEFENSE Were your actions in response to that emotion? NIMA Yes, I just reacted.

[Sean Nguyen]

He described and demonstrated redirecting the knife back at Bob and says at some point Bob just walked away, unresponsive to Nima, asking him hey, what was that? What just happened? He said he had no idea that Bob Lee was feeling fatally injured. So the defense hinged on Bob Lee having the murder weapon, the knife, on him all along and attacking Nima with it. I do remember thinking that at least part of Nima's account sounded plausible. I'm just speaking as myself here, as someone who had been following this story. I thought that when Nima described this bad joke that he supposedly made to Bob, that he should be hanging out with his family instead of with Nima, who would eventually kill him, the substance of this joke felt real to me.

[Brad Cohen]

If you're going to make something up, you wouldn't make that up, right? That's why when he told me that, I was like, sounds very credible to me, because you don't know what sets people off.

[Sean Nguyen]

So far, Momenti is coming off as calm and a rather credible witness. His own defense attorneys have been telling us that he's been dying to tell his side of the story, and today marks his first chance to do just that. The San Francisco Standard wrote that, quote, momeni's testimony appears to undermine the prosecution's narrative. It was convincing, or at least satisfying in a way. The prosecution's explanation of what went down never quite achieved. Meanwhile, the DA's office was following all of this coverage.

[Omid Talai]

So a lot of the articles talked about what Nima said and how this version may have been believable. And so I'm reading that kind of, you know, seething and almost salivating.

[Sean Nguyen]

So the next day, Talai came in hot.

[Omid Talai]

I can be in your face a little bit. And I was, and I repeated it a few times. He's a murderer. He's a dumb murderer. He's not a smart murderer. It's for Nima Momeni to hear. I think you're not just a murderer, but you're a dumb one. So when he gets up there, he's a little more likely to snap at me like he repeatedly did.

[Sean Nguyen]

It didn't take long for Nima to start getting sarcastic with the prosecution. For instance, the prosecutor asked Nima if it was a coincidence that the police were never able to recover the jacket that he was wearing the night Bob was killed.

[Nima Momeni]

Nima. I wasn't sure if I was supposed to save it. I hadn't talked to an attorney. If you guys would like to go back and gather new evidence, we can help you with that. No problem.

[Sean Nguyen]

Once Nima got riled up, he stayed riled up. He responded sharply, saying things like, and you've done a great job Finding the things you want. And I think you're mistaking the timeline here.

[Omid Talai]

He was constantly interrupting me. He was at times criticizing me. I know there was at least one occasion where his own lawyer or lawyers told him, I think, you know, shut up. Like, just answer the questions. Like they from across the courtroom had to control him.

[Sean Nguyen]

My source on the jury said Nima's

[Juror]

testimony was the most damning. Oh my fucking God, he did it. He did it. It's so obvious. My bullshit meter was red flagging. His story keeps changing. He was so belligerent and standoffish with the prosecution's questions. Did that guy do something to hurt you because you hate his guts? I never saw someone so unwilling to answer the simplest of questions. He was like, why are you asking that question? Someone who was innocent wouldn't say that.

[Sean Nguyen]

The prosecutor got Nima to react basically exactly the way he wanted him to.

[Omid Talai]

Dane and I have cross examined murderers in the past. It's easy to cross these individuals when they're lying. Like it's a lot easier when they are liars. It's even easier in my opinion when they think they are smarter than you. And I think he thought that he could out charm and outsmart me.

[Sean Nguyen]

Here's Cohen from Nima's defense team.

[Brad Cohen]

I think that he held up well to a certain point and then he got frustrated, I think with the state. I think that the state did a good job in trying to get him to be confused or get him frustrated or asking the same question over and over and over again to the point where he would be like, hey, I already answered that. And he'd seem combative.

[Sean Nguyen]

The trial was nearing its conclusion. Nima's team had one more piece of evidence they wanted to enter. One final element they thought would make it obvious to the jury that Bob had the knife all along and Nima was only acting in self defense. During closing arguments, one of Nima's other attorneys, Sam Zangane, played a new video recording.

[Brad Cohen]

Zangane showed the jury surveillance video he

[Sean Nguyen]

says shows Lee with a friend snorting

[Brad Cohen]

cocaine from a knife hours before he was killed.

[Sean Nguyen]

Here's Cohen.

[Brad Cohen]

Very clearly in the video that we showed, no one has an excuse for what is in his hand that he's holding. That clearly looks to me like a knife that he's snorting cocaine off of.

[Sean Nguyen]

I watched the video. Bob does look like he's snorting cocaine off of something.

[Brad Cohen]

This thing's three inches long. It's not a key. He's holding it like this and it's like, I am 1000%, in my opinion, sure that that was a knife. He's holding it like a knife and he's snorting cocaine with it.

[Sean Nguyen]

After we saw the video, I stepped out into the hallway. One journalist called it a mic drop moment. A court observer said to me, so Bob had the knife all along. And I remember thinking, wow, if some people in the gallery were persuaded that Bob maybe had the knife, what does the jury think? To our other top story right now in the hands of the jury, Deliberations have begun in the high profile murder trial of Neema Momeni. How long did the jury deliberate for?

[Omid Talai]

8 days? 8 or 9, I think it felt like a month. The longest I've ever had.

[Juror]

They told us to take our time.

[Sean Nguyen]

My source on the jury talked me through their deliberations.

[Juror]

The first few days were a waste. There was screaming and shouting and crying. We didn't get anything done.

[Brad Cohen]

At one point, you know, we could hear them yelling in the back. At another point, one of the jurors came in and said, listen, I don't want to even be on this jury anymore. There's so much yelling, pounding on the table.

[Juror]

I'm disappointed that that room was not soundproof. The whole yelling part. Everyone has been holding two months of secrets, two months of their thoughts. You can't talk to anyone. You can't watch the news.

[Sean Nguyen]

My source said that the jurors took the instructions from the court very seriously. They didn't discuss the case with each other or with their families for the extent of the trial. While the jury talked, the legal teams were restless. How did you feel and what were you doing with yourselves while they were deliberating?

[Dane Reinstad]

Pacing and, you know, we're trying to read the tea leaves on every note that we get from the jury during the course of deliberations and thinking about, okay, what does this mean? How does this signal they may be thinking or leaning on X, y or Z issue?

[Sean Nguyen]

In the hallways, we, the press, were trying to read the tea leaves too. We were kind of going nuts. One day, one of the jurors forgot to buckle his belt. What did that mean? Was he looking disheveled because he was stressed? There was one guy sitting on the bench alone. He looked like he had been crying. And we were wondering, was he a holdout?

[Juror]

There was a holdout who wanted to review every inch of evidence.

[Sean Nguyen]

That's my source on the jury again. They said that there was one massive point of disagreement in the deliberation room, that final video the defense showed of Bob seemingly snorting Cocaine off of some object that for almost everyone on the jury, they simply did not believe that object was a knife.

[Juror]

We know no fool is going to snort off a knife. People don't carry bare knives in their pockets. That's just stupid. They're going to accidentally stab themselves when they sit down.

[Sean Nguyen]

But my source told me that there was one person on the jury who was convinced that Bob must have had the knife all along.

[Juror]

He thought he was smarter than the cops and the prosecutors, and he wanted to do his own investigation. He thought he could prove that Bob had the knife. He was sitting at the laptop that had the surveillance videos asking, how do I rewind? How do I slow down? How do I zoom in? He was at that for many hours. The court specifically told us we aren't supposed to do our own investigation. So we were screaming at him, what are you doing? You're not a cop. You're not a detective.

[Sean Nguyen]

My source said that. Finally, one of the other jurors zoomed in on a piece of police body camera footage that showed a cop pulling something out of Bob Lee's pocket. It looked like it could have been a key or a USB stick. Couldn't this be what Bob had been using to snort cocaine? Out in the halls of the courthouse, Som Zengane, Nima's lead attorney, was usually sort of a cocky guy who likes to joke around. But by day six of jury deliberations, even he seemed worn down.

[Omid Talai]

I mean, these guys are committed.

[Brad Cohen]

I got to give it to them.

[Omid Talai]

They're really in there working hard. That's all you can really ask them to do.

[Sean Nguyen]

In your experience, can you provide any context as to how unusual or maybe on brand it might be for a deliberation like this to take this long?

[Brad Cohen]

I've never had a murder case take

[Omid Talai]

longer than two days. The longest deliberation I've ever had was 10 days.

[Brad Cohen]

And it was a federal case, and

[Omid Talai]

it was like 2 million documents.

[Sean Nguyen]

I'm sorry, guys.

[Omid Talai]

I'm just emotionally drained, as you can imagine.

[Sean Nguyen]

The juror I spoke to said they poured through the text messages. They watched the videos again and again, dozens of times.

[Juror]

Everyone wasn't sleeping well. Every time we'd meet. Did you sleep? No. Did you eat?

[Brad Cohen]

No.

[Juror]

Some of us had nightmares. Some people had dreams that they were on the witness stand. One person said they dreamed that Bob walked in. He looked like a walking corpse because we had looked at that morgue photo again and again. Some people got freaked out. Is he a ghost? Is he here right now?

[Sean Nguyen]

House neighbor.

[Omid Talai]

I Mean, imagine when you have other people deciding your fate. Waiting an hour is an eternity.

[Sean Nguyen]

Nima's attorney, Sam Zangane, again, imagine waiting six days.

[Brad Cohen]

And I'm sure that all the parties,

[Omid Talai]

including the leads, I feel for them, I feel for everybody in a case like this, you know, especially in this time where you're waiting.

[Brad Cohen]

Right.

[Omid Talai]

It's not an easy thing.

[Sean Nguyen]

It's a gut wrenching thing.

[Omid Talai]

I know.

[Sean Nguyen]

After this, Zangane flew home. Three out of five of Nima's lawyers returned to Florida and they didn't come back. Eventually, the holdout came to agree with the rest of the jury. Nima had the knife. Then the question became, is Nima guilty of first degree murder? To meet that bar, the killing had to be three willful, premeditated, and deliberate.

[Juror]

Let's figure out all the evidence. Let's figure out what we agree on. Willful means. The defendant meant to kill. You look at the evidence and say, okay, did the defendant mean to kill? If you were angry at someone, you would not stab them in the chest. That's willful. We check that off. The next requirement, premeditated, meaning you planned the act in advance. There's a knife at the scene. We felt it like premeditated. People don't randomly bring a knife.

[Sean Nguyen]

Premeditated, check.

[Juror]

Third requirement, deliberate. Defendant considered scenarios for and against the act and chose to act anyways. That was the hardest part. There was no evidence that says that we're not in his head. There's no manifesto. There's no video of him pacing in the hallway deciding whether or not to do it. Did the suspect think about every scenario and decide to murder? Can any of us say we saw any evidence that tells us that shit?

[Omid Talai]

No.

[Sean Nguyen]

At the end of day six, they still weren't all in agreement. Then my source on the jury told me a different juror told a personal story about how her father had been incarcerated. She told everyone she believed that he had actually been wrongfully convicted. And she said if there had been one person on the jury like the holdout, maybe things would have turned out differently. She drew on the whiteboard a picture of a seesaw. There were 11 people on one side and just one person on the other.

[Juror]

It took all of the air out of the room. We've been shamed. At that point we were like, fuck, let's vote.

[Sean Nguyen]

We'll be right back. On June 10, Bloomberg Invest is back in Hong Kong. We look at the role Hong Kong plays between China and the world and the as major powers compete and markets realign as global investors rethink risk, we'll explore the forces driving Asian demand and the future of private capital. Catch exclusive interviews with top newsmakers, plus a live recording of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast. Visit BloombergLive.com investhongkong to learn more. Supporting sponsor Deutsche Bank after seven days of deliberation spread out across three weeks, we finally heard. Within the past hour, we learned jurors have reached a verdict. Here's Amitalai.

[Omid Talai]

When the verdicts are read, what happens is the forms go to the judge. The first page is first degree murder. The second page is second degree murder. And then all the way down. Judge Gordon she kind of sifted through that first page pretty quickly and looked at that second page more closely. I leaned over to Dane and said, it's a second. Like it's not a first, it's a second. Because she took some extra time there. Once I saw that, I was actually pretty calm. Breaking news out of San Francisco, California, and that high profile murder case involving a Bay Area tech executive. Here's your headline. In this one, a jury has just found Neema Momeni guilty of second degree murder in the killing of Cash app founder Bob Lee.

[Juror]

Some of us said first degree feels right. Obviously there was some planning, but we have to do what the law says. Even though we feel we really want first degree, second degree is okay too. If you don't meet all three scenarios, it defaults to second. That's what it says in the law. That's what it says in our packet.

[Sean Nguyen]

The verdict of second degree murder means that Nima faces a sentence of 16 to life. If he had gone first degree, he would have been looking at 26 to life. After the bailiff read the verdict, it was chaos. Bob's family and friends filled half the courtroom and they crowded the hallways. TV crews were already set up. For Bob Lee's family, the judgment came as a relief, a vindication.

[Omid Talai]

We're happy with the result today.

[Sean Nguyen]

We're happy that Ligo money will not

[Nima Momeni]

be on the streets.

[Sean Nguyen]

No longer has the opportunity to harm

[Dane Reinstad]

anybody else in this world. The verdict of burglar 2 will put

[Sean Nguyen]

him away for a long time. Just this case was extremely hard to prove because it was just anima's word

[Dane Reinstad]

versus my brother's word, which he's not

[Sean Nguyen]

here for anybody to be able to hear. Both of us. Bob's brother and former wife told me that they felt robbed of the chance to grieve his death. They had been navigating waves of media coverage. And then the trial itself. I think they seemed relieved that this part of the ordeal was finally over, that they could finally grieve their family member. But for Nima's family, it was a solemn day. Here's Nima's mom, Manaz. Well, definitely it's very disappointing. In that moment when you heard the verdict, were you able to make eye contact with your son? At that moment, there's no reason. No, I. I would rather to have. I can't eye contact with the jurors because this is their decision. My son is not such a thing, such a person. He's the kindest person. Every mother would love to have a son like him. I know my son and he never does that. A source close to the family said that during the trial, Nima's mom expressed faith in the defense strategy. She maintained hopeful optimism and also maybe a bit of denial. The guilty verdict felt like yet another blow. From the moment news of Bob Lee's death went public. There were so many things that distracted from Nima Momeni was and Bob Lee and whatever actually happened between them that night. First, there was online misinformation. Was Bob killed by a homeless person? Did he die in the mugging gone wrong? Did this happen because San Francisco is a ruined city? Elon Musk weighed in. Then there were rumors that Kazar and Bob slept together, intense scrutiny on Kazar's clothes and the state of her marriage. Then there was reporting on Bob's drug use, Nima's drug use, Kazar's drug use. For all that, I was sort of impressed that the jury came together and after some brutal back and forth, agreed on a second degree murder verdict because they determined that the prosecution didn't prove that the killing was in fact deliberate. It felt rather even handed to me. So this appears to be the rare true crime podcast that determines that the criminal justice system seemed mostly to work, at least in this case. But at the very end, there was one thing that caught me by surprise. It was the DA Brooke Jenkins response after the verdict. She celebrated the result, but immediately took us back in time to the initial wave of online outrage about Bob's death. We all know that after Bob Lee was murdered, Elon Musk took to Twitter to make an effort to really shame San Francisco and to make it seem like this was about lawlessness in San Francisco and about what's going on out in our streets. And we knew it was something different. And I think today proved. I asked Jenkins in a later interview, why bring up Elon Musk after all of this? I felt that he was somebody who was incapable of admitting when he was wrong. And so I perhaps was still holding on to a little, a few feelings about that. And this was like my last chance to sort of throw in his face, you were wrong and you owe us another tweet to say that you were wrong. Right, and that we do what we're supposed to do in this city when it comes to, you know, accountability. Her response reminded me that even for the da, even though the killer was caught and put away, the Bob Lee murder trial still felt deeply tied to the city of San Francisco and its legacy. It's almost like a hangover from those initial days of wild online rumors, the conversations about San Francisco that Bob Lee's death set in motion, that it was a dangerous city ruined by liberal leaders. Even though the substance of those conversations had nothing to do with what killed Bob, they continued, the trial was able to deflate rumors about this specific story, but the narrative about dangerous, out of control liberal cities would live on. That's next time on Foundering. Foundering is reported, hosted and executive produced by me, Sean Wen. Eric Masitzis Menel produced our show. Bart Warshaw is our audio engineer. Our story editors are Joshua Brustein, Tom Giles, Ann Vandermee and Nicole Beam. Voice acting by Marc Laidorff. Production help from Brianna Breen and Jeremy Dalmas. Be sure to subscribe and if you like our show, leave a review. Most importantly, tell your friends. See you next time. On June 10, Bloomberg Invest is back in Hong Kong. We look at the role Hong Kong plays between China and the world as major powers compete and markets realign. As global investors rethink risk, we'll explore the forces driving Asian demand and the future of private capital. Catch exclusive interviews with top newsmakers, plus a live recording of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast. Visit Bloomberglive.com investhongkong to learn more. Supporting Sponsor Deutsche Bank.