McAfee Bonus: Q&A

Summary

Foundering Podcast: McAfee Bonus Episode – Q&A Summary

Released on May 16, 2023, Bloomberg's award-winning podcast series "Foundering" delves into high-stakes dramas within the technology industry. In this bonus episode, titled "McAfee Bonus: Q&A," host Jamie Tarabey engages in an insightful discussion with cybersecurity expert Alan Liske. The episode stems from a live show held at RSA Conference in San Francisco, a premier event in the cybersecurity realm. Below is a detailed summary capturing the key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

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1. Introduction to the Live Show and Participants

Jamie Tarabey kicks off the episode by contextualizing the live event held at RSA Conference, where she performed a live reading of the first episode of the John McAfee story. The live session also featured a Q&A segment with Alan Liske, an author and cybersecurity expert integral to the episode's narrative. Jamie briefly touches upon her background as a former foreign correspondent and conflict reporter, hinting at how this experience influenced her approach to covering McAfee's complex story.

2. John McAfee's Influence on the Cybersecurity Industry

The conversation transitions to Alan Liske, who elaborates on John McAfee's lasting impact on the cybersecurity sector.

Alan Liske [01:31]: "CISA now has an initiative out there to build better and more secure software, to mandate that software is more built, is more secure and built. And that is 40 years after McAfee launched his antivirus program. So we're just now catching up to that."

Liske underscores that McAfee's pioneering work with antivirus software set a foundational model for the industry, albeit one that has become overly complex with multiple security tools proliferating within organizations. He highlights the paradox where despite having numerous security measures, threats like ransomware continue to thrive due to the fragmentation of security systems.

3. McAfee's Personality and Leadership Style

The discussion shifts to John McAfee's personality and its influence on his business practices and the broader tech industry. Jamie shares observations from her reporting, noting parallels between McAfee and other high-profile tech figures like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos.

Unnamed Speaker 1 [03:21]: "He did have a lot of things in common with those sorts of men, which is there's a lot of ego and there's a lot of a greater sense of unaccountability and the vanity that comes with being the leader."

Alan echoes this sentiment, drawing connections between McAfee's charismatic yet polarizing persona and current trends in technology leadership.

Alan Liske [05:02]: "I do think that that is absolutely the case and there have been, and I think this is in any industry, but in particular to the areas where McAfee was in technology and then cryptocurrency later because it's areas that a lot of people don't understand. You do get some charlatans in there."

4. The Dichotomy of Security vs. Privacy

A pivotal part of the conversation addresses the tension between security and privacy, a theme recurrent in McAfee's later life. This debate remains highly relevant today, especially concerning governmental access to encryption.

Alan Liske [08:21]: "I think privacy is really important. I think we shouldn't be giving governments back doors to encryption algorithms and giving them access to these kind of databases, because if one country has access, then essentially all countries have access to it."

The hosts discuss real-world implications, citing the notable clash between the Department of Justice and Apple over phone encryption as an example of this ongoing struggle.

5. Challenges in Reporting on a Controversial Figure

Jamie delves into the complexities faced while reporting on McAfee, primarily due to his controversial nature and the difficulty in verifying facts from his early years.

Unnamed Speaker 1 [06:29]: "One of the challenges was figuring out what was actually real. And we had to go back to a time that was pre Internet, and a lot of those work experiences that we talked about, the employment history, we couldn't verify so many of them because they went back to the 60s and beforehand."

The discussion reveals how nearly every individual interviewed had a fluctuating perception of McAfee, initially portraying him as brilliant and later as destructive, highlighting the multifaceted nature of his personality.

6. McAfee's Technical Brilliance vs. Marketing Prowess

Audience questions steer the conversation towards McAfee's technical contributions and his adeptness at marketing.

Unnamed Speaker 1 [13:24]: "According to the interviews that we did, the product was like, good. There was a whole controversy about whether he even like created it himself or whether one of the programmers that he employed did it."

Alan Liske emphasizes that while McAfee's technical contributions, particularly in the early days of antivirus software, were significant, his true genius lay in his ability to market and sell the product effectively.

Alan Liske [15:18]: "They would identify a new virus and then they would add it to the signature. So it was all signature based. And that was kind of the brilliance of it."

This duality of technical skill and marketing acumen propelled McAfee to create an enduring legacy in the cybersecurity landscape.

7. McAfee's Legacy and Continuing Relevance

Brad Stone, Bloomberg's boss and part of the discussion, poses a question on why McAfee remains a prominent figure in the industry.

Alan Liske [18:40]: "He had a very good stance on privacy, for example. Personally, I'm not a fan of cryptocurrencies, but that's because I deal with ransomware, and I only see cryptocurrency as being used for bad things. But, you know, so in that way, he's managed to stay relevant because he was always chasing after the next relevant thing."

Liske attributes McAfee's enduring presence to his relentless pursuit of emerging technologies and his ability to resonate with core principles valued in the security community, such as privacy and libertarian ideals.

8. Audience Q&A Highlights

Several audience questions provide deeper insights into the thematic elements of the series and McAfee's life:

• Title Origin: Explaining the double entendre of "Foundering," reflecting both the founder aspect and the notion of sinking under challenges.

• McAfee's Technical Genius: Debating whether McAfee's success stemmed from genuine technical innovation or the illusion thereof, with references to potential appropriation of others' work.

• McAfee's Final Chapter: Addressing the mysterious circumstances surrounding McAfee's later years and death, with reflections on his narcissistic tendencies and the conspiracy theories that emerged posthumously.

Unnamed Speaker 1 [21:50]: "He came from nothing, and he built this incredible company and helped start an industry... it's such a slippery slope. You become powerful and wealthy, and you are surrounded by enablers… there's a big lesson in that as well."

9. Concluding Remarks and Key Takeaways

As the episode wraps up, Jamie shares her final thoughts, emphasizing the duality of McAfee's legacy—celebrating his entrepreneurial spirit and cautioning against the pitfalls of unchecked power and ego.

Jamie Tarabey [21:50]: "What happened to John McAfee, like, he came from nothing, and he built this incredible company and helped start an industry... it's such a slippery slope. You become powerful and wealthy… there's a big lesson in that as well."

The hosts express gratitude to Alan Liske for his contributions and acknowledge the collaborative efforts of the production team. Listeners are encouraged to subscribe, leave reviews, and engage further with the "Foundering" series.

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Conclusion

This bonus episode of "Foundering" provides a comprehensive exploration of John McAfee's multifaceted legacy in the technology and cybersecurity industries. Through the engaging dialogue between Jamie Tarabey and Alan Liske, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of McAfee's technical contributions, his magnetic yet controversial personality, and the broader implications of his actions on contemporary debates surrounding security and privacy. The episode serves as both a tribute to McAfee's pioneering efforts and a cautionary tale about the complexities of leadership in the tech world.

Transcript

[Jamie Tarabey]

Hi, it's me again, Jamie Tarabey. And you're listening to a bonus episode of foundering. In April 2023, we put on a live show at RSA in San Francisco. It's one of the biggest cybersecurity conferences in the world. I did a live reading of the first episode of the John McAfee story, and then we did a Q and A with one of the people who was featured in that episode. Look out for a recording of the live show on bloomberg.com for now, though, I wanted to share the Q and A. You're going to hear from Alan Liske. He's an author and expert in cybersecurity who had some interesting things to say about the impact McAfee had on the industry. I also talk a little bit about my reporting process for this show, and the moderator you'll hear is Foundering's editor, Mark Millian. Thank you for listening to the series, and I hope you enjoy the discussion.

[Mark Millian]

Hey, everyone, I'm Mark Millian. I edit Foundering. I'm also the slideshow operator. Alan, I wanted to start with you. You had this very memorable quote in the episode buy my thing instead. Can you expand on that? Like, how did McAfee shape today's approach to digital security?

[Alan Liske]

I love that we're highlighting that quote at rsa, which is the biggest buy my thing convention for security community in the world. Please don't throw tomatoes at me. Well, sure. So think of it now. CISA now has an initiative out there to build better and more secure software, to mandate that software is more built, is more secure and built. And that is 40 years after McAfee launched his antivirus program. So we're just now catching up to that. But that has been the model in security forever, and in a lot of ways, it makes us less secure. So if I walk into any company right now, they have antivirus and they have EDRs, they have endpoint protection. They probably have three or four different agents on their. On each individual endpoint. Then you have your Web application firewall, your firewall, your ids, your mail security program, and so on. So you have, you walk into an organization and you have 100 different security tools, 100 different consoles. And yet things like ransomware, which is where I specialize, are running rampant because we can't seem to stop it because there's too much. And the one thing that caught the ransomware actor is the one console you haven't looked at this week. And so we've made it much more complex to operate a secure Environment.

[Mark Millian]

Jamie, you talk in the recorded version of this episode about your background and career. A long time foreign correspondent and conflict reporter. How did that context shape how you thought about approaching a story like McAfee's?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I mean I think one of the things that he, not to say that he was like a dictator or a terrorist or anything, but he did have a lot of things in common with those sorts of men, which is there's a lot of ego and there's a lot of a greater sense of unaccountability and the vanity that comes with being the leader. And what we found in our reporting is that he managed to continue to build these small worlds where he was in charge. And it was just a lot of the similar kind of characteristics of that sort of behavior and personality. The cult of personality was definitely present in a lot of McAfee's life and through a lot of the people that we spoke to.

[Unnamed Speaker 2]

I mean I see in your reporting almost a direct through line from like John McAfee to Elon Musk. I mean that you see a lot of similarities in that kind of cult of personality and the I'm in charge and running things. And so I think, but I think that not just those two, but I think there's a lot of that in general in tech for worse often yeah.

[Mark Millian]

That'S I think a through line of the series. As Jamie talked in the beginning, you know, Adam Newman to even, even Jeff Bezos, there's some common traits that exist between these leaders. Alan, clearly McAfee's work had an impact on the security industry. Do you think his personality shaped the business at all? Like his boosterism and salesmanship and antagonism and paranoia, like is that reflected in Today's companies or CEOs?

[Alan Liske]

I mean, and I love this company so I'm going to pick on them. But go downstairs and look at the CrowdStrike booth and the fact that they have 10 foot tall action figures of adversaries. I mean that is great company. But yeah, that sort of, oh, these are really scary things that you have to fight and they are. It is a real problem, it is a real threat. But we do have this almost fetishization, if that's a word of the adversary, rather than sort of taking a more fact based look at things. So I do think that that is absolutely the case and there have been, and I think this is in any industry, but in particular to the areas where McAfee was in technology and then cryptocurrency later because it's areas that a lot of people don't understand. You do get some charlatans in there. You do get some companies that kind of build everything. And I'm not saying McAfee did this, but are able to build their whole company on lies, essentially.

[Mark Millian]

Jamie, one thing we establish in the episode we just heard and make very clear throughout the series is that McAfee is a controversial figure. What were some of the most surprising things you learned about him during your reporting?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I think one of the challenges was figuring out what was actually real. And we had to go back to a time that was pre Internet, and a lot of those work experiences that we talked about, the employment history, we couldn't verify so many of them because they went back to the 60s and beforehand. And so that was really frustrating. One of the things that I thought was really telling that everyone that we spoke to who was close to him sort of began with this. Oh, he was so great. He was such a smart person. He was brilliant. He was the love of my life.

[Mark Millian]

Yeah, the ex wives.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah. And then it was, oh, he was horrible. And, you know, he cheated on me or he betrayed me or did this. And then by the end, it was like he was the worst. So your people just kind of went through this whole journey of how they felt about him, but their immediate recollections were that he was this positive person on their lives, and then they remember, oh, no, actually, he kind of, you know, destroyed me. So, I mean, that was really surprising that it wasn't just one or two people. It was nearly everyone we spoke to.

[Mark Millian]

I want to give people a chance to ask questions. We get a couple of microphones in the room. You're welcome to step up and asked your own questions. Alan, something that McAfee talked about, especially later in his life, was this push and pull between security and privacy. I think this was for him personally, often in the context of not paying taxes and a sort of creative interpretation of privacy as, like, a license to break the law. But this theme of safety versus privacy, civil liberties, is a pretty relevant one today, right?

[Alan Liske]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the FBI and the Department of Justice is trying to figure out, still trying to figure out how to find backdoors into encryption tools and so on, and considers that to be really important without any actual evidence that having those backdoors would actually help them solve cases faster. Just a couple years ago, the fight between Department of Justice and Apple over, hey, are you going to help us jailbreak this phone? And, no, we're not. And, yeah, it's a real challenge. And as somebody in the security industry, I think privacy is really important. I think we shouldn't be giving governments back doors to encryption algorithms and giving them access to these kind of databases, because if one country has access, then essentially all countries have access to it.

[Mark Millian]

It's funny you bring up the San Bernardino example because that's in our Steve McAfee who inserts himself into the story to try to bring the attention back to himself.

[Alan Liske]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That was a great example of he always had to kind of be front and center on the story, so. Yes, absolutely.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

But he's also really smart about the zeitgeist. Right. He knew where and what. And I mean, I kind of felt by the end that he should have really chosen a career in Hollywood because he was so good at figuring out how to use fear and sort of what it was that drew attention. And he was really. He just knew. He understood people so well. And because so much of what he did was so fantastical, I really thought that Hollywood would have been his true home.

[Mark Millian]

Yes, he was very charismatic.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

He let them miss out.

[Unnamed Speaker 2]

Absolutely. He would have made billions producing movies and so on. Update War Games, only instead of just a basic computer, it's now a government funded AI that is starting World War Three.

[Alan Liske]

Right. I mean, that would have been the.

[Unnamed Speaker 2]

Perfect movie for him.

[Mark Millian]

Jamie McAfee associated with some pretty shady characters. You talked about how separating fact from fiction was a challenge in your reporting. What other sorts of reporting challenges did this create for you?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I mean, the shady characters, unreliable narrators, that was what.

[Unnamed Speaker 2]

Not me. I'm not one of the shady characters.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

You are not an unreliable. But I think it was really hard to find someone who was connected in some way with him, who could be truly honest and really just sort of call it what it was. And. And that was always really hard. And whenever we would sort of say to someone, well, apparently there's video of you doing this, they're like, no, it's not true. Never happened. So that was always a challenge. And I think at least one of our interviewees had an ankle bracelet for a while, so that was also challenging.

[Unnamed Speaker 2]

It's interesting to prep for this, I ordered a couple of biographies on McAfee. And when you start reading through the biographies, I guess the people that he would allow in to write biographies were also kind of self serving and shady.

[Alan Liske]

And I'm reading the biograph like, this is more about you and how great you are as a biographer. And I'm like, all right, well, but I do think he did foster that.

[Unnamed Speaker 2]

Kind of Environment, especially later in life, which I thought was interesting.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

He's really good at co opting media. Really, really, really good at it.

[Mark Millian]

We have a question from the audience. Could you identify yourself?

[Rashmita]

Yeah, My name is Rashmita. I'm a cyber security architect in MetLife. We met last month. You might remember me, but I remember you. But Jamie, you're an amazing storyteller. I'm just curious to know, how did you come to the title Foundering, Especially when you mentioned that so many times you came across during your interviews that he's not necessarily a leader, not necessarily somebody who would put the company together to take it to the next step. So was there any struggle about coming to this title? What solidified the title?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I'm going to defer to at least one person in the room who came up with that title.

[Mark Millian]

Yeah, Mark and Bradstone, the title for a series we've been doing for a few years where, I mean, it's like a double meaning that we're playing off of founder because it's the founder of a company. But foundering also refers to a shift that's sinking. So oftentimes these entrepreneurial stories, there's some great challenges. In our first subject, which Ellen Hewitt from Bloomberg was the host of, we focused on Adam Newman from WeWork, who was definitely foundering and then sank. Not all of our subjects sank entirely. Some got to leave on their own terms, like Jeff Bezos, who. Brad Stone, the host of that series is here too. So yeah, that was the story behind the title. Another question from the audience.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I was wondering more about kind of the kernel of his brilliance. So we heard about different aspects of what made him successful. His salesmanship, the relationships he developed. But what was at the start of his success in building his company? Was there some sort of technical brilliance or was it more smoke and mirrors?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I mean, according to the interviews that we did, the product was like, good. There was a whole controversy about whether he even like created it himself or whether one of the programmers that he employed did it. And it's a rabbit hole, like it really. I even heard from one person that I spoke to that when he was working at Lockheed Martin, one of his colleagues at Lockheed Martin had actually came up with it and John had stolen it from him and then went, so. I mean, this is why I said it was so hard to verify exactly what was happening. But what we do know for sure is that Dennis Yell, the computer programmer who worked with McAfee, was instrumental in creating that first version. Obviously it fit a need, but I don't really know much about fighting viruses back then, but they were for specific viruses. Right. So you had to constantly iterate and. And find new solutions, Is that right?

[Mark Millian]

Yeah.

[Alan Liske]

I mean, so what you were looking at back in the early 80s was you had two. You had McAfee and you had Norton, and then you had a whole bunch of scammy pretend antivirus programs that didn't actually do anything, just kind of like now, actually. But yeah, and basically the way it worked was it was entirely a subscription model.

[Unnamed Speaker 2]

They would identify a new virus and.

[Alan Liske]

Then they would add it to the signature. So it was all signature based. And that was kind of the brilliance of it. When you're only dealing with one virus a month or one mutation of a virus a month, you can add new signatures monthly and do pretty well. And so they were able to stay ahead of it. The problem was when you moved from that one a month to hundreds of variations a day, then it became much, much more difficult to keep up. But yes, in the early 80s and mid-80s, McAfee and Norton were your options for better Internet security and to protect you from these viruses that were a real problem.

[Mark Millian]

I think the question of who programmed it is similar to the sort of Steve Jobs versus Steve Wozniak debate, which is who was the genius? And I think they were both geniuses. And McAfee's ability to market, to create the Ghostbusters ban and drive it to the sites and go on TV and get people interested and scare everyone about the Michelangelo virus, that was an effective. He created an industry that's pretty amazing.

[Alan Liske]

Well, and we see that even today there are incident response companies that have their promotional incident response truck. It looks like an ambulance or something like that. So again, when we talk about throughlines, that continues through where they have that ability.

[Mark Millian]

Alan, how unique of a figure do you think McAfee was? Have you come across other McAfees during the course of your time?

[Alan Liske]

Was or is? So I think in the early cybersecurity industry, I think he was fairly unique. I do think there are maybe with less cocaine, although I'm not at the CEO level, so I could be completely wrong about that. I think there are. We still see them pop up. The type of sales you have to, especially if you're a startup, you have to be a bit of a salesman to sell your product. Right. And McAfee did make a good product. But I do think we have a lot of the people who are more of the salespeople without the good product behind it in security industry. Again, because it is such a complex industry. But I think the best CEOs also have to be able to sell their product. I don't think that's a bad thing. You know, as a technical person, I get all queasy and uncomfortable around selling stuff, but you can't do that as a CEO.

[Mark Millian]

So we have a question from my boss, Brad Stone.

[Alan Liske]

Thank you.

[Brad Stone]

I would encourage everybody to listen to the podcast. It's really crazy, but in particular the last episode is wild because McAfee authors this incredible last chapter where he runs for president, he gets into crypto and he gets arrested, and then he dies under mysterious circumstances. So I'm wondering, you know, Jamie, what did you end up concluding about this last chapter in his life and the mysterious, somewhat mysterious circumstances of his death? And then, Alan, one for you is like, why do you think we're still talking about John McAfee? Why does he continue to resonate in this industry?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I mean, I try and I really struggle with this because it's really hard to sort of imagine a 70 odd year old man running around the world rather than like pay taxes. I couldn't understand why he felt he had to react so extremely to something like that. And all I could think was it was his narcissism and his ego and this idea, this belief that he had that people cared about him, you know, and that without his online audience or his fans or whenever he would go to these conferences and speak, he was, you know, Alan, you saw him speak in a couple of places as well, that, you know, he had this adulation and I don't know, I was really. It just seems like the most obvious thing is just go to court, but that's. He's never done that. He had all of these instances where he was meant to go to court to face up to charges and he just point blank refused to. And I think that if you entrench yourself in your position so stubbornly, I think 75 year olds can be stubborn, then, you know, but then I think the sort of, the conspiracy around his death was just part of fomenting and making sure that he could do what he could to keep his name out there as long as possible. I mean, it's really an exercise in just like extreme narcissism. But a lot of people bought into it. We get a lot of reactions still online to the story that he's not dead. So that's always fun.

[Alan Liske]

Well, I mean, you look at the contrast between John McAfee and Peter Norton. Does anybody know what Peter Norton's doing these days. I mean, there's a guy who paid his taxes, made his money, and is off doing whatever we talk about him because he wanted to be in the public eye, and he wanted to keep that public Persona, and that was important to him. And I do think that there is, for a lot of the security community, I think there's a very libertarian streak in the security community. So a lot of what he said resonated with many people in the security community. A little overboard for many, but I do think that that kind of resonation was important, and there were people that agreed with a lot of what he had to say. I think he had a very good stance on privacy, for example. Personally, I'm not a fan of cryptocurrencies, but that's because I deal with ransomware, and I only see cryptocurrency as being used for bad things. But, you know, so in that way, he's managed to stay relevant because he was always chasing after the next relevant thing.

[Mark Millian]

We're almost out of time, but I want Jamie to ask one more question. What is the one thing you hope listeners take away from the series?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Oh, my God. I mean, I think in a lot of ways, it's a really great story. Like, I think what happened to John McAfee, like, he came from nothing, and he built this incredible company and helped start an industry. And I think that sort of the good parts of what he did and what he accomplished are really worth sort of paying attention to. Like, he saw an opportunity, he had an idea, and he went for it and really went for it. And I think the other part of that is, you know, it's such a slippery slope. You become powerful and wealthy, and you are surrounded by enablers, and you never hear the word no, and you start to believe that you don't have to operate on the same level as everyone else. And. And there's a big lesson in that as well. And, you know, we say that every day, actually. You're right about that.

[Mark Millian]

All right, well, thank you, Alan, for sitting down with us now, twice, if you count the podcast interview.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Thank you, Alan.

[Alan Liske]

Absolutely.

[Mark Millian]

And thanks to Jamie for doing what is a very awkward dance for a journalist, of sitting up here and performing for an audience. And I hope you all give a round of applause for our executive producer, Sean Wen. Sean came out this morning despite having a tiny baby at home who's not letting her sleep. And Brad and Tom and Hannah. And this is the first time we've been able to get almost the entire team together. Awesome. But most of all, thank you to all of you for coming today. And if you like the show, find us in your podcast app. Subscribe, Leave a review thank you, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the conference.