OpenAI Part 4: Heaven and Hell, Part 2

Summary

Foundering Podcast: OpenAI Part 4: Heaven and Hell, Part 2
Release Date: June 20, 2024
Host: Ellen Hewitt
Produced by: Bloomberg Technology

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Introduction and Context

In the fourth installment of the "OpenAI" series titled "Heaven and Hell, Part 2," Foundering delves deeper into the multifaceted impact of OpenAI and its CEO, Sam Altman, on both the technology industry and wider societal structures. This episode explores the dichotomy between Altman's visionary aspirations for artificial intelligence and the personal challenges faced by his family, particularly his sister Annie Altman.

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Sam Altman’s Vision for AI and Universal Basic Income

Sam Altman envisions artificial intelligence as a pivotal force capable of ending poverty and revolutionizing society. He believes that AI will lead to a technological and societal revolution, ultimately creating an abundance of resources. However, Altman acknowledges the disruptive potential of AI, including significant job displacement.

Sam Altman [01:03–01:16]:
"I think it'd be good to end poverty. Maybe you think we should stop a technology that can do that? I personally don't. The first time I looked at GPT2, I was like, oh my. This is like, this is crazy. This is, you know, there's nothing like there's nothing like this in the world. Like, it's crazy that this is possible."

Altman advocates for Universal Basic Income (UBI) as a solution to the economic upheaval AI may cause. He describes UBI as a system where cash is distributed to everyone regularly without conditions, aiming to reduce global inequality.

Sam Altman [03:20–03:34]:
"We're going to have an opportunity to push the reset button and think about the world we want. And I think universal basic income is one part of that. I think we do have an opportunity, as we rewrite the social contract, to think about how we can get towards a more equal world."

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Annie Altman’s Personal Struggles

Contrasting Altman's grand ambitions is the poignant story of his sister, Annie Altman, who grapples with severe financial instability and homelessness. Annie's experiences highlight the gap between Altman's public declarations and his family's private realities.

Annie has faced chronic housing insecurity, leading her to engage in sex work as a last resort to survive. Her situation underscores the challenges that UBI aims to address but also brings into question the effectiveness and personal application of such policies within powerful families.

Annie Altman [08:43–09:09]:
"In my experience, it's not only hard to do anything when you are housing insecure. It is impossible. I haven't had a typical day in four years because of how much energy both physically like looking for places or doing things or looking for jobs and emotionally goes into housing insecurity. It has been the single biggest energy output of my past year."

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Family Dynamics and Control

The episode delves into the complex family dynamics of the Altman household. Sam, the eldest sibling, has a dominating presence that has significantly influenced the lives of his brother Max, Jack, and sister Annie. While the brothers tightly bond through shared professional endeavors, Annie feels marginalized and unsupported.

Annie recounts her family's conditional support, highlighting Sam's attempts to control her life even when offering financial assistance.

Annie Altman [13:14–15:25]:
"I asked my family directly for money to pay rent and cover groceries... I forwarded me an email from Sam where he asked her to share her bank statements and to allow him and his mom to sit in on some of her therapy sessions in exchange for her rent and medical expenses being covered... it's not something I wanted to do."

Annie describes Sam’s financial support as laden with conditions that infringe upon her privacy and autonomy, contradicting his advocacy for UBI.

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Contradictions Between Public Vision and Private Actions

Ankle's story reveals a stark contradiction between Sam Altman's public persona as a tech visionary promoting societal benefits and his personal interactions within his family. While advocating for UBI and the eradication of poverty on a global scale, Altman's actions towards Annie suggest a lack of genuine support when it comes to his own family.

When Annie sought financial help, Sam’s response was not only conditional but also intrusive, attempting to impose control over her personal affairs.

Annie Altman [17:24–18:16]:
"She felt like it was a throwback to Sam's attempts to get her on Zoloft and to peer into her bank statements... It didn't feel like a genuine offer to help but another attempt to control her."

Moreover, before the public revelation of Annie’s struggles, Sam maintained a facade of success and leadership, further isolating Annie and rendering her plight virtually invisible to the public eye.

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Implications and Conclusion

The episode concludes by juxtaposing Sam Altman’s lofty goals for AI and societal transformation with the tangible, personal failure to support his own sister. Annie’s story serves as a microcosm of the broader societal issues UBI aims to address, while simultaneously questioning the sincerity and applicability of such solutions when they are not practiced within influential circles.

The narrative sets the stage for the final episode, which promises to explore the repercussions of these revelations on OpenAI's governance and Sam Altman's leadership, ultimately questioning the trustworthiness of individuals who possess significant power yet fail to uphold their advocated principles in personal matters.

Katie Greifeld [23:07–24:55]:
"When Sam is going around talking about our AI future, he acknowledges that AI could take our jobs and upend society and money as we know it. And he says he'll come up with a solution for us Universal basic income. But when he's faced with the messy reality of his own sister, suddenly it's not so simple... In public, he is literally saying that that there shouldn't be poverty. Money will be given away to everyone. In private. When Annie asked for help, he didn't come through for her in the way she needed."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sam Altman on UBI and AI's Impact:

  • [03:20] "I think universal basic income is one part of that. I think we do have an opportunity, as we rewrite the social contract, to think about how we can get towards a more equal world."

• Annie Altman on Housing Insecurity:

  • [08:43] "I haven't had a typical day in four years because of how much energy... goes into housing insecurity."

• Annie on Sam’s Conditional Support:

  • [17:24] "It didn't feel like a genuine offer to help but another attempt to control her."

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Conclusion

"OpenAI Part 4: Heaven and Hell, Part 2" offers a compelling exploration of the complexities and contradictions inherent in technological leadership and personal responsibility. Through the lens of Sam Altman's public ambitions and his sister Annie’s personal tribulations, the episode raises critical questions about the feasibility of proposed societal solutions when not uniformly applied, especially within influential families driving these changes.

For listeners new to the series, this episode provides an in-depth look at the human costs behind technological advancements and the importance of aligning personal actions with public declarations to truly effect meaningful societal transformation.

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Credits:
Foundering is hosted by Ellen Hewitt, with executive production by Sean Wen. Production assistance was provided by Jessica Nix and Antonia Mufarec. Story editing was done by Mark Millian, Ann Vandermay, Seth Vigerman, Tom Giles, and Molly Schutz.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Matt Levine]

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[Katie Greifeld]

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[Unknown Speaker]

Previously on Foundering.

[Sam Altman]

I think it'd be good to end poverty. Maybe you think we should stop a technology that can do that? I personally don't. The first time I looked at GPT2, I was like, oh my. This is like, this is crazy. This is, you know, there's nothing like there's nothing like this in the world. Like, it's crazy that this is possible.

[Unknown Speaker]

This was much more fluid feeling.

[Katie Greifeld]

It gave you a sense that you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Were communicating with a person even though you were clearly not communicating with a person.

[Sam Altman]

I think it's how we get to this world of abundance. I think AI will probably like most likely sort of lead to the end of the world.

[Matt Levine]

And yet we are wasting our time.

[Katie Greifeld]

Talking about these fantasy scenarios because the.

[Unknown Speaker]

People with all the money decided to.

[Katie Greifeld]

Get worried about it.

[Unknown Speaker]

This episode picks up from where part one of Heaven and Hell left off. If you haven't listened to that episode yet, you might want to go back and listen in order. One thing Sam has been really clear, he believes is that AI is going to dramatically change our society and probably put a lot of people out of work. His voice is matter of fact when he describes this on the Joe Rogan podcast.

[Sam Altman]

I think it's going to be a great thing, but I think it's not going to be all a great thing. It's not this like clean story of we're going to do this and it's all going to be great. It's going to be net great, but it's going to be like a technological revolution. It's going to be a societal revolution.

[Katie Greifeld]

When Sam says net, he means overall.

[Sam Altman]

And even if it's like net wonderful, you know, there's things we're going to lose along the way. Some kinds of jobs, some kinds. Parts of our way of life, some parts of the way we live are going to change or go away.

[Katie Greifeld]

These are scary changes. But when Sam talks about these changes, he also has a proposed solution to them. Universal basic income, or ubiquitous. It's a method of distributing money to keep people out of poverty. And it has a few key it's cash given to everyone on a regular schedule, and it's unconditional. It's not tied to a job, and people can spend it on whatever they want, no strings attached. Sam says UBI is a great solution, one that we should pursue as a society. It will help reduce inequality worldwide.

[Sam Altman]

We're going to have an opportunity to push the reset button and think about the world we want. And I think universal basic income is one part of that. I think we do have an opportunity, as we rewrite the social contract, to think about how we can get towards a more equal world.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sam has spent almost a decade making himself into a tech expert on UBI. In 2016, when he was running Y Combinator, he started a basic income study in Oakland. That project eventually gave 1,000 people $1,000 every month. It's no longer associated with YC and is now funded by OpenAI. He also started a crypto project called WorldCoin, which uses these silver orbs to scan your eyeballs and register you in a database in exchange for a digital currency. The point is to one day be able to distribute a universal basic income to everyone through this eyeball registry. Anyway, regardless of the method, Sam has clearly made UBI part of his personal brand. As you heard in part one, he wants to eradicate poverty. And he has continued to talk about this as recently as 2023.

[Sam Altman]

You know, I think the world should eliminate poverty if able to do so. But one thing I think we all could agree on, we just shouldn't have poverty in the world. I think it'd be good to end poverty. Maybe you think we should stop a technology that can do that? I personally don't.

[Katie Greifeld]

What really strikes me is that Sam positions himself as the visionary behind this AI that might put us all out of work and the visionary behind systems that will save us from that chaos. He's offering fixes to the problems that his own technology will create. Imagine a future where Sam Altman's company has invented AI so powerful that it upends the entire labor economy. We no longer work for money. Instead, we get monthly checks from Sam Altman's income distribution system. I can imagine that his intentions might be good and that he wants to make a difference here. But what Sam's proposing is ending poverty through systems overseen by him, basically. And that's asking us to put a huge amount of trust in him. Remember, Sam is really good at gaining power. He has a deep drive to be in charge. His company has made promises about adhering to certain principles and then moved away from them. It brings me back to this question we asked in episode one. What I think is the key question of this series. Should we trust this person?

[Unknown Speaker]

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Like we said earlier, there's a part of Sam's life that really complicates this image of him. It's the story of his little sister, Annie. She says she lives in poverty. Sometimes she struggles with homelessness. She says she survives by doing sex work. Sam is pitching this dream future in which universal basic income will protect everyone who needs it. That sounds lovely in theory, but when it's held up next to Annie's messy everyday reality, that promise starts to sound a bit hollow. Housing insecurity has defined Annie's life for the past few years. This is a complex and sensitive situation, so I wanted to hear from her myself.

[Matt Levine]

In my experience, it's not only hard to do anything when you are housing insecure. It is impossible. I haven't had a typical day in four years because of how much energy both physically like looking for places or doing things or looking for jobs and emotionally goes into housing insecurity. It has been the single biggest energy output of my past year.

[Katie Greifeld]

In person, Annie is upbeat and smiley. She has good suggestions for health food stores on Maui. She has the word Love tattooed across her knuckles. She makes a podcast.

[Matt Levine]

Hello and welcome to the Annie Altman.

[Katie Greifeld]

Show all humans are human podcast and posts videos of her singing on YouTube.

[Matt Levine]

This is for my dad. Sometimes I lay under the moon.

[Katie Greifeld]

And to better understand her story, I want to rewind to her childhood. When we heard from Annie briefly in the first episode, she talked about Sam domineering attitude within their family. How he dictated they wouldn't have Christmas trees and put himself in charge of how long each sibling could speak at their dad's funeral. Their family has three boys. Sam's the oldest, then Max, then Jack. Annie is the youngest, nine years younger than Sam and the only girl. Her brothers loved science, math, games, nerdy stuff. She was always the artistic, sensitive one. Even when they were children, she sometimes felt like the odd one out. And as they became adults, the bonds between the brothers tightened, both personally and professionally. While Sam was running yc, Jack founded a software company that was funded by yc. Jack and Max also both worked with Sam helping run his investment fund with money from Peter Thiel. Then all three started another investment fund together in which they used Sam's personal wealth. The three brothers lived together in San Francisco. Brothers, co workers, roommates, a tight, messy knot of family, business and money. Annie, on the other hand, was not part of the Altman family brand. With each new step in her life, she seemed to veer farther away from the path she felt was expected of her. She completed pre med requirements but decided not to pursue that Further, she did improv classes, stand up comedy, yoga, teacher training. She said her dad was supportive of this turn away from a more traditional path. Her mom, who was a physician, was less excited.

[Matt Levine]

My siblings and mother were very judgmental about the shift and also very this is just a phase. I was and am a total daddy's girl. With my mother. There was closeness only when I was doing what she wanted me to do, which is a story, sadly. I feel like a lot of people.

[Unknown Speaker]

Can relate to Just a note we reached out to Sam, his siblings and his mom for comment in this episode. His mom, Connie Gibstein responded with this we love Annie and are very concerned about her well being. Over the years we have offered her financial support and help and continue to offer it today. Navigating the balance between providing support without enabling self destructive behavior for a family member with mental health struggles is extraordinarily difficult. We only want the best for Annie and hope everyone will treat her with compassion. In 2018, Annie's father died suddenly of a heart attack and the grief hit her hard. Meanwhile, she also started dealing with some chronic health issues, including tendinitis in her ankle that made it difficult to do work that required standing.

[Katie Greifeld]

She quit her job.

[Unknown Speaker]

She was still mourning her dad. She had gotten some life insurance money after he died, but when that ran out a year later, she still found herself in a desperate financial situation. In order to pay rent, she started selling her furniture. She says she asked her family directly for money to pay rent and cover groceries.

[Matt Levine]

I asked my mother for help and she said no and then asked Sam and he was told to say no because of her wanting him to say no. And he's a grown man in his 30s, millions of dollars now.

[Katie Greifeld]

Sam and his family have given Annie money at times, but she says it always came with heavy conditions that made her nervous. At one point, Sam wanted her to get back on Zoloft, an antidepressant which she'd started as a teen but had stopped later on. She forwarded me an email from Sam where he asked her to share her bank statements and to allow him and his mom to sit in on some of her therapy sessions in exchange for her rent and medical expenses being covered. She felt like it was his way of exerting leverage or power over her. Of course Sam can spend his money as he pleases, but again, he's on stage espousing the virtues of universal basic income, giving money away for free unconditionally, and Annie says he didn't do the same here for her. There were times When I'd gone back and forth about what to include from Annie's story. It's a very personal, messy family situation. And I'll confess that on occasion I've doubted some unrelated things she's told me. But also I've looked through corroborating emails and documents. We drove to a lot of places Annie lived and I met people she lived with. So in late 2019, when she asked for help and says she was told no, she turned to something she considered a last resort to make money. She started sex work. She made an account on a sugar daddy dating website where people trade money for companionship and often sex.

[Matt Levine]

I was just, I was in a desperate place. I mean, I literally like people who have been in a position like this. Ever know that when you're at a place of selling furniture, you're in a desperate position of I'm out of options, this is a plan Z. I would not be doing this if plans A through Y had worked out in any capacity.

[Katie Greifeld]

The first thing she tried was video chatting with a middle aged man. She flashed him on camera and he sent her money over Zell. She posted videos on OnlyFans and Pornhub. She also did in person sex work for two years. She says she didn't want to, but it was the work that she was able to fit into her unpredictable schedule of dealing with her health issues. Her lack of stable income led to a long period of housing insecurity. At times she lived with sex work clients or even with strangers from the Internet. Her sex work contributed to her precarious housing. She didn't have pay stubs or regular income, which limited the kind of leases she could get. It felt like this interconnected web. Exactly the kind of vicious cycle that something like universal basic income tries to break.

[Matt Levine]

If I had a security deposit in my bank account, never would have lived with this man. Not, not even a little bit of a chance would I have lived with this man. There's some unhealthy sex work experiences and I've also had very traumatizing experiences from in person work that would not have happened if I had secure housing. I'm still in and have been so long in survival mode that it really shifts everything. It really shifts everything. Times when it's been really like those places like staying just for a week and a half and then a floor for a week and then someone's place for a night and then a floor for a week and those places of really moving that much in a short period of time. There's no I Had no energy for anything else, really feeling a sense of helplessness and powerlessness that I have never experienced, ever.

[Katie Greifeld]

It's not a clean cut situation. In 2022, Sam offered to buy Annie a house. But she says it wasn't going to be in her name and the conditions made her uncomfortable.

[Matt Levine]

It became clear to me that it was not an offer for my house. It was an offer for a house of Sam's or a lawyer of his that I would be allowed to live in.

[Katie Greifeld]

She felt like it was a throwback to Sam's attempts to get her on Zoloft and to peer into her bank statements. So she said no, I do want to pause on this because I know it may sound illogical. After all, it would have been a place to live. But from her point of view, Sam had exerted control over her throughout their lives, and this seemed like one more attempt to control her. During those conversations, she was clear with Sam about the hardships she had endured in the past couple years.

[Matt Levine]

I told him over the series of those phone calls too that I had started sex work and distinctly remember when I first told him about doing sex work. And he said, quote, good.

[Katie Greifeld]

Annie was stung because she remembers that he didn't ask anything more about it. Like she was sharing something that was painful for her and he was blowing past it.

[Matt Levine]

To hear your little sister tell you she's doing something she doesn't want to do related to sex, and for the response to be good. So I was like, oh, you're glad that I'm starting to post on OnlyFans. It sounds good to you because I'm supporting myself, even if I'm telling you I'm doing this as a plan Z because I don't know what else to do.

[Katie Greifeld]

A person close to Sam says that Sam remembers the conversation differently. Annie and Sam are mostly estranged. After that conversation, she kept living in Hawaii, struggling in obscurity. Meanwhile, Sam was ascendant. He was doing World Tours, CEO of the Year. He officially became a billionaire. Most of the world had no idea Annie Altman existed, let alone that she was depending on OnlyFans for survival. But last fall, New York magazine published a profile of Sam, and the journalist Elizabeth Weil interviewed Annie. The article was the first time a lot of people found out Sam even had a sister. Myself included.

[Matt Levine]

Some of the trippiest messages I got from reporters when that article first came out were reporters who have watched every interview Sam has ever done, saying he's never mentioned a sister.

[Katie Greifeld]

Annie worries that because she's basically invisible in Sam's public life, especially compared to his tight relationship with his brothers. Reporters won't take her story seriously.

[Matt Levine]

They will then question my validity or, oh, well, she's crazy. Maybe he did, you know, maybe he's just not talking about her because she, she's so mentally unstable. And so now let's recycle Annie's crazy narrative and this is why she can't be trusted. Or we should just ignore her.

[Katie Greifeld]

In the days leading up to the article coming out, New York magazine reached out to Sam and his family and OpenAI for fact checking and to confirm details so Sam knew the story was going to mention Annie. And then the day before the article ran, something spurred Sam to make an unexpected move. He emailed Annie, and the night before.

[Matt Levine]

It came out was Yom Kippur, the.

[Katie Greifeld]

Jewish day of forgiveness.

[Matt Levine]

Sam emailed me, no subject and in all lowercase, and said, hi, Annie. In the spirit of it almost being Yom Kippur, I wanted to apologize and ask for forgiveness for something. I should have kept sending you money without conditions even though our family had concerns. I was in a tough position of wanting to let mom drive decisions as the parent and seeing how much stress you were causing her. Parentheses and also agreeing it would be better for everyone if you were able to support yourself and thinking that you needed medical help. Close parentheses and it being clear, you just weren't really able to function very well. Still, I made the wrong call and should have just kept supporting you. I sincerely apologize. I hope you find peace. There's no mention of this article that's coming out tomorrow and there's no mention of the fact checking that he just went through.

[Katie Greifeld]

Annie felt that the timing of this email was really telling that for all this time, while Annie was staying in the background, Sam didn't feel any need to apologize. Then, just as she's about to exert a little bit of power over him by complicating his image, he reaches out and invokes their shared Jewish heritage to ask for forgiveness. I asked Annie how she felt about Sam speaking publicly about universal basic income and ending poverty when he hasn't done the same for her.

[Matt Levine]

It was a very big slap in the face. It feels embarrassing to be related to him. It's beyond depressing and like, heartbreaking and disappointing that someone who I thought had a different moral compass or who I thought would be there for me when I needed someone and was really sick, wasn't it? I'm going to be grieving in the same way I'm going to be grieving my dad for the rest of my life. I'm going to be grieving Sam for the rest of my life. And the sadness of someone who saw me in a walking boot and didn't say, how can I help you? It's why I use the term sibling and not brother.

[Katie Greifeld]

Even though Annie's story is really complicated, I think it's relevant to all of us. Because when Sam is going around talking about our AI future, he acknowledges that AI could take our jobs and upend society and money as we know it. And he says he'll come up with a solution for us Universal basic income. But when he's faced with the messy reality of his own sister, suddenly it's not so simple. In public, he is literally saying that that there shouldn't be poverty. Money will be given away to everyone. In private. When Annie asked for help, he didn't come through for her in the way she needed. In the next and final episode, we'll see that even the board of OpenAI, the people whose job it was to keep Sam in check, decided they didn't trust him. He had to go and they needed to take drastic measures to remove him from the seat of power. That's next time on Foundering. Foundering is hosted by me, Ellen Hewitt. Sean Wen is our executive producer. Molly Nugent is our associate producer. Blake Maples is our audio engineer. Mark Millian, Ann Vandermay, Seth Vigerman, Tom Giles and Molly Schutz are our story editors. We had production help from Jessica Nix and Antonia Mufarec. Thanks for listening. If you like our show, leave a review and most importantly, tell your friends. See you next time.

[Unknown Speaker]

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