The Singular Life of Rick Rubin

Summary

Founders — The Singular Life of Rick Rubin

Host: David Senra
Air Date: January 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, David Senra dives into the extraordinary life and creative philosophy of Rick Rubin, the legendary music producer who has shaped the sound of hip hop, rock, and country for over four decades. Drawing from Jake Brown’s biography Rick Rubin: In the Studio, multiple podcast interviews, Rubin’s own show (Broken Record), and the Showtime documentary Shangri-La, Senra extracts powerful lessons on creativity, the founder’s mentality, and the relentless pursuit of quality. This episode is an exploration of how Rubin’s singular focus on the essence of art—and his refusal to settle for mediocrity—can inspire entrepreneurs, artists, and anyone seeking to excel in their craft.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rick Rubin’s Founding Principles

[01:44–04:54]

• Minimalism as a Philosophy:
  Rubin’s goal is always to reach the “most basic and purest form” of the music. Paring away the unnecessary, he internalized Leonardo da Vinci’s maxim: “Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”

  “When I started producing, minimalism was my thing. My first record... says ‘Reduced by Rick Rubin.’” — Rick Rubin [05:26]

• Production by Reduction:
  Identifying himself as a “reducer” rather than a “producer,” Rubin seeks to find the essence of a song or project.

2. Vision: Seeing the End and Working Backward

[06:14–08:23]

• “Finding the potential and seeing how to realize it can be the best part. The actual work of having to get there is just going through the process. Once you hear it in your head, it’s like being a carpenter trying to build the thing when you already know what it is.” — Rick Rubin [06:40]
• Paralleled by Steve Jobs and Edwin Land: great projects aren’t invented, they’re discovered.
• “Both of them had this ability to not invent products, but to discover them. Both of them said, these products have always existed. It’s just that no one has ever seen them before.” — David Senra [08:11]

3. The Role of the Producer as a Founder

[08:40–09:26]

• Rubin approaches each collaboration as if joining the band, but with total focus on the “whole” rather than any part.

  “I’m the only member of the band that doesn’t care about any of those particulars. I just care that the whole thing is as good as it can be.” — Rick Rubin [08:56]

• The producer is the “founder” — seeing the big picture and guiding everyone toward their best selves.

4. Refusal to Settle for Mediocrity & Obsession with Quality

[09:39–13:32]

• Both Rick Rubin and Warren Buffett are deeply selective, recognizing that most work is merely average.
• Rubin’s main filter: fall in love with the work before committing to any project.

  “I believe in the quality of content over everything else.” — Rick Rubin [13:28]

• “Love what you do or find something else.” (Estee Lauder, echoed throughout)

5. Discipline, Preparation, and the Long Private Practice

[13:36–16:22]

• Rubin and his artists spend vast amounts of time on material before ever entering the recording studio.

  “The public praises people for what they practice in private.” — David Senra [13:47]

• Examples abound of legendary work resulting from years of unseen effort.

6. Hard Work to Achieve Simplicity

[15:06–16:22]

• Per Rick Rubin:

  “If you need 10 songs, you might need to write 50 or a thousand songs to find 10 good ones.” — Rick Rubin to LL Cool J [15:06]

• Simplicity isn’t easy; it’s the result of “doing more to get to less.”

7. Experimentation and Open-Mindedness

[17:45–19:34]

• Rubin values relentless experimentation:

  “Let’s try every idea and see where it takes us. Don’t prejudge it.” — Rick Rubin [18:57]

• Echoes James Dyson’s “Edisonian” approach—cycle through experiments and iterations without presumption.

8. The Power of Confidence and Transferring Belief

[19:44–21:29]

• Central to Rubin’s role is the ability to instill self-confidence in his collaborators, even icons like Johnny Cash and Neil Diamond.

  “He brought out the best of me. He made me believe in myself.” — Johnny Cash, paraphrased [21:29]

• “He had the attitude that he could do anything, and therefore so can you.” — Elizabeth, about Steve Jobs [20:35]

9. Extreme Preparation and Efficient Execution

[21:39–22:25]

• The short time Rubin spends in studio with artists is only possible because of lengthy and detailed pre-work.

  “It’s the pre-production time that really makes all the difference.” — Rick Rubin [21:56]

10. Personal Taste Over Technical Skill

[23:58–24:23]

• Rubin admits:

  “I don’t know how to work a board... My primary asset is I know when I like something or not. It always comes down to taste.” — Rick Rubin [24:14]

• His job is not technical, but curatorial and creative—tuning the final product to his high standards.

11. Founding Def Jam: Following Passion and Listening to the Customer

[28:56–32:53]

• Rubin started as a DJ in his NYU dorm because he didn’t hear the hip hop he loved on records.

  “I didn’t know anything about the record business, but I recognized that hip hop records that were coming out... and the music that I would hear when I go to the club were two different things.” — Rick Rubin [29:17]

• By putting his dorm address on records, he opened a pipeline of demo tapes and new opportunities—eventually signing LL Cool J as a result.

12. Stacking Opportunities & Relentless Pursuit

[32:23–36:38]

• Every small opportunity is a stepping-stone to the next:

  “One opportunity leading to the next opportunity and leads to the next opportunity. You can’t skip steps.” — David Senra [32:24]

13. Finding the Right Partners

[36:10–38:12]

• Def Jam’s success was due to the complementary skills of Rick Rubin (in the studio) and Russell Simmons (promotion and business).
• Key lesson: Seek partners who compensate for your own gaps.

14. Creative Marketing and Not Waiting for Permission

[39:10–41:25]

• Instead of waiting for mainstream media, Def Jam made Crush Groove—a movie as inbound marketing for the label.

  “It was content marketing for Def Jam and their artists.” — David Senra [39:11]

• Combine creativity with hustle to hack distribution and awareness.

15. Embracing Authenticity and Serving the Song

[44:08–44:46]

• Rick Rubin demands “raw, musical and ferocious” performances, not “glossy and shiny.”

  “It was raw, authentic. It was raw like a documentary.” — Rick Rubin [44:27]

16. Pursuing New Challenges and Reinvention

[67:45–68:05]

• Rubin constantly reinvents himself and his work, moving from genre to genre. His collaboration with Johnny Cash revived Cash's career through nakedly honest, stripped-down production.

  “Wherever the magic is, we will follow it.” — Rick Rubin [68:32]

17. Selecting Clients Based on Values and Relationship

[72:11–73:03]

• Only works with those he admires and can bond with personally.

  “You bond as people first and then you put these songs... he’s like the song doctor.” — System of a Down member [73:00]

18. Historical Knowledge as a Competitive Advantage

[56:49–58:06]

• Rubin uses his encyclopedic knowledge of music history to guide artists. He believes learning from the past is essential to innovation and longevity.

  “To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.” — Cicero, quoted by Senra [58:25]

19. Persistence and Transference of Confidence

[59:28–60:48]

• If not for Rubin’s persistent pursuit, groups like Public Enemy may never have emerged.

  “It took six months until Chuck D said, maybe.” — David Senra [60:08]

20. Philosophy of Endless Search and Never Accepting the Status Quo

[59:23-]

• “It is an endless search… I never accept whatever the accepted version of something is as, oh, that’s how it’s supposed to be.” — Rick Rubin [59:23]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Simplicity and Reduction:

  “My first record actually says instead of produced by Rick Rubin… ‘Reduced by Rick Rubin.’” — Rick Rubin [05:26]

• On Creative Confidence:

  “I’m pleased with the work we did… If it could be better, I would have kept working on it.” — Rick Rubin [50:26]

• Avoiding Regret:

  “When you’re looking back over your life at the end, end of your life with regret, it’s brutal. It’s brutal.” — Rick Rubin [52:29]

• Persistence as Key:

  “I would call [Chuck D] every day… It took six months.” — David Senra [59:49–60:08]

• Learning from History:

  “To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.” — Cicero, via Senra [58:25]

• Work Ethic and Rejection of Regret:

  “My work is almost like a diary entry. Everything we make is a reflection in a moment in time.” — Rick Rubin [51:10]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:54] — Production by Reduction / Minimimalism
• [06:40] — Vision: see the finish and work backward
• [08:56] — Role of the Producer as Founder
• [13:28] — “I believe in the quality of content over everything else.”
• [15:06] — LL Cool J: “If you need 10 songs, you might need to write 50…”
• [18:57] — On Experimentation: “Let’s try every idea and see where it takes us…”
• [19:44]–[21:29] — Transferring Confidence: Steve Jobs, Johnny Cash
• [21:56] — “It’s the pre-production time that really makes all the difference.”
• [24:14] — “I don’t know how to work a board… It always comes down to taste.”
• [28:56]–[32:53] — Founding Def Jam: Address on the Record, LL Cool J demo
• [39:10] — Marketing Innovation: Crush Groove as content marketing
• [44:27] — On Authenticity: “It was raw, like a documentary.”
• [68:32] — Johnny Cash: “Wherever the magic is, we will follow it.”
• [72:11] — The extreme personal nature of creative work
• [75:18] — The four-part blueprint: single-task, undivided attention, A-players, clarity of mind

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Conclusion & Takeaways

Senra's detailed exploration reveals Rick Rubin as a founder in spirit—a creative obsessed with authenticity, relentless in his search for quality, and profoundly confident in his instincts. The greatest works, Senra argues (echoing Rubin), come from a place of personal obsession, endless preparation, and a willingness to ignore conventional wisdom in favor of singular vision. This episode is a treasure trove for anyone seeking to create lasting, transcendent work—whether as an artist, entrepreneur, or leader. The actionable lessons: prepare deeply, pursue quality obsessively, persist beyond reason, and never stop learning from those who came before.

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References:

• Jake Brown, Rick Rubin: In the Studio
• Lex Fridman Podcast w/ Rick Rubin
• Showtime’s Shangri-La
• Broken Record podcast
• Peter Attia podcast w/ Rick Rubin

Host’s note:
“That’s 255 books down, 1,000 to go. And I’ll talk to you again soon.” — David Senra [80:21]

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

I just made an episode about Rick Rubin's ideas on creativity and how to do great work over and over again for a long period of time. To prepare for that episode, I actually re listened to an episode that I made about the singular life story of Rick Rubin a few years ago. There were so many interesting ideas and stories in that episode that I re listened to it twice. So I'm going to replay that episode for you now. Before I do, I want to remind you about the great sponsors and supporters of Founders. The first one is Ramp. Ramp helps your business save both time and money. Easy to use, corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. I run my business on Ramp and so do most of the other top founders and CEOs that I know. Make sure you go to ramp.com to learn how they can help make your business stronger and more efficient.

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[Narrator/Reader]

There's no greater enigma than Rick Rubin.

[Podcast Host]

Working in record production today.

[Narrator/Reader]

His career began in hip hop. He co founded Def Jam Records with Russell Simmons in 1984. He produced rap's first number one album and was widely credited for launching hip hop as a viable commercial medium. Refusing to play it safe, Reuben jumped ship from rap to metal, leaving Def Jam to found another record label, DefAmerican, where he signed and produced groundbreaking acts like Slayer. After his work on the hugely successful Red Hot Chili Peppers acclaimed album Blood Sugar Sex Magic, Rubin was only seven years into his career and already a living legend. Though he worked with legends like Mick Jagger, AC DC and Tom Petty. In the early 1990s, it was his recordings with Johnny Cash that still stand out as his most astonishing and studied collaboration. By the turn of the century, Rubin had invented, reinvented, or redefined so many musical genres that there was no way to categorize his style. Rolling Stones called him the most successful producer of any genre. But the praise and album sales didn't shake Rubin's focus as he dedicated himself to artist after artist. Grammy nominations and awards poured in, including winning Producer of the Year. But Rick Rubin, workaholic and recluse, found himself too busy to attend.

[Podcast Host]

That is an excerpt from the book I'm going to talk to you about.

[Narrator/Reader]

Today, which is Rick Rubin in the.

[Podcast Host]

Studio and is written by Jake Brown. This book wasn't even on my radar. A few weeks ago, I did a podcast on Jay Z. It's episode number 238. And in that podcast I talked about Jay Z studying and working with Rick Rubin. And he said something that I thought was interesting. He's like, rick ain't normal. He is strange by strange standards.

[Narrator/Reader]

Rick's 20 years into his career and dude has not changed.

[Podcast Host]

He's got his own vibe. You got to love him for that. And so after that episode came out, a listener contacted me and they're like, hey, you should check out Lex Friedman's podcast he just released with Rick Rubin. And I started watching it and I absolutely loved it. And I realized as I was taking notes listening to that episode, I was like, I need to find a biography of Rick Rubin immediately. So I'm working off of Rick Rubin's biography, the one I just read from you or read a part to you from. I took notes on Lex Friedman's podcast. I'm going to link all this below in the show notes, below the link to the book, if you want to buy the book. But I used Lex Friedman's podcast. I took notes on that, Peter Attia's podcast, which I'll link to. And then I watched a three part, excuse me, four part documentary on Rick Rubin's studio in Malibu. It's on Showtime. It's called Shangri La. And then I also spent several hours listening to Rick's own podcast. I didn't even know he had a podcast. And it's actually really, really good. It's called Broken Record.

[Narrator/Reader]

And listening to him speak for so.

[Podcast Host]

Many hours actually enhanced my understanding and reading of his biography. Because Rick, just like a ton of the other founders that you and I have said in the Podcast, they identify a handful of core beliefs that's really important to like their philosophy of on work and life. And they repeat them over and over again. So I want to jump right into the book. And one of his core beliefs is in the beauty of simplicity.

[Narrator/Reader]

In fact, it's repeated so much, I.

[Podcast Host]

Had this, this idea of Da Vinci. If Leonardo da Vinci was able to speak to Rick Rubin and say. And repeat his. One of his most famous quotes, which is simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, I think Rick would have smiled and nodded his head. And so we go to the first chapter. It's called Production by Reduction. This is one of my favorite ideas of Rick Rubins.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says when Rick enters the studio, his goal is to record music in, quote, its most basic and purest form. No extra bells and whistles, all wheat, no chaff.

[Podcast Host]

And that's what he says.

[Narrator/Reader]

When I started producing, minimalism was my thing. My first record actually says instead of produced by Rick Rubin, it. It says reduced by Rick Rubin.

[Podcast Host]

And he was producing that album when he was around 18 years old. DEF Jam, the company he founds, which is probably the most iconic hip hop label of all time, was actually founded by Rick Rubin in his dorm room at nyu. So we're going to get it to a lot of that early history because it's just fascinating. It's the exact equivalent of like the Silicon Valley starting your company out of your. Out of your garage. He just happened to do it in the dorm room. Going back to Rick Rubin's quote, it's.

[Narrator/Reader]

Still a natural part of me not to have a lot of extra stuff involved, but that doesn't add to the production and try to get to the essence of what the music is. You want to feel like you have a relationship with the artist when you're done listening to their record. And then Rick describes how he works.

[Podcast Host]

And when I read this paragraph, the.

[Narrator/Reader]

Thing that jumped out to me most.

[Podcast Host]

Was this is exactly like Steve Jobs and his hero, Edwin Land, the founder of Polaroid, how they would talk about.

[Narrator/Reader]

Seeing the finished product first in their.

[Podcast Host]

Mind and then working backwards from that. Be like, okay, that's the finished state. Now I just have to go through the steps to get there. And I'm going to read a section of this famous interview. But let me read what Rick says about this here.

[Narrator/Reader]

He says, finding the potential and seeing how to realize it can be the best part. And then the actual work of having to get there is just going through the process. Once you hear it in your head, it's like being a carpenter trying to build the thing when you already know what it is. So that's the key. You're trying to build the thing when you already know what it is.

[Podcast Host]

And so there's this famous meeting that happens when Steve Jobs still is in his 20s. Edwin Land, I think, is in his 70s at this point. Steve Jobs borrowed a lot of ideas from other people. Obviously, he had, like, this deep historical knowledge, and he used that deep historical knowledge and influenced the work in building Apple and Pixar and everything else that he was involved in. But the one person he took the most ideas from was undoubtedly Edwin Land. And so let me read this. This excerpt from this meeting that they were having. It says, Dr. Land was saying, I.

[Narrator/Reader]

Could see what the Polaroid camera should be. It was just as real to me as if it was sitting in front of me before I had ever built one.

[Podcast Host]

And Steve said, yes, that's exactly the way I saw the Macintosh. He said, if I was to ask.

[Narrator/Reader]

If I asked someone who had only.

[Podcast Host]

Used a personal calculator what a Macintosh should be like, they couldn't have told.

[Narrator/Reader]

Me there was no way to do.

[Podcast Host]

Consumer research on it.

[Narrator/Reader]

So I had to go and create it and then show it to people.

[Podcast Host]

And say, now, what do you think? And then this next sentence, I think, is the most important part. And it really. From spending an unbelievable amount of hours, probably close to 40 hours studying Rick Rubin in the last couple days, this. I think this is. This gets to his essence.

[Narrator/Reader]

Both of them had this ability to.

[Podcast Host]

Not invent products, but to discover them. Both of them said, these products have always existed. It's just that no one has ever seen them before.

[Narrator/Reader]

We were the ones who discovered them.

[Podcast Host]

The Polaroid camera always existed and the Macintosh always existed. It is a matter of discovery. So back to the book. This is where Rick describes, like what. Like, what exactly do you bring to. Like, you're a producer, but he's not a technical producer.

[Narrator/Reader]

And really, when he describes the role.

[Podcast Host]

That he plays with the bands and the artists and the rappers and the musicians that he works with, I'm like.

[Narrator/Reader]

Oh, he's the founder. He's playing the role of the founder.

[Podcast Host]

Check this out.

[Narrator/Reader]

Listen to what he says, and I.

[Podcast Host]

Think it'll make sense to you.

[Narrator/Reader]

He says, it's almost more like, I.

[Podcast Host]

Join a band when I produce a record.

[Narrator/Reader]

But I'm unlike all the other members of the band who each have their own personal agenda. The bass player is concerned about the bass part. Everyone else is concerned about their own part. I'M the only member of the band that doesn't care about any of those particulars. I just care that the whole thing is as good as it can be. My goal is to just get out of the way and let the people I'm working with be the best versions of themselves.

[Podcast Host]

And then Rick goes into the process, like, how do I choose who I'm going to work with?

[Narrator/Reader]

He's going to say something here that.

[Podcast Host]

I found almost the identical thought when I read all of Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I think it's founders episode 88, if you haven't listened to that yet.

[Narrator/Reader]

But he says, I like so little.

[Podcast Host]

In the first place, meaning so little music in the first place.

[Narrator/Reader]

Very few records come out that interest me at all. Very few bands do I ever see that interest me at all. I don't like anything that's mediocre. I like it when people take things to their limit.

[Podcast Host]

And so that line where he's like, there's just. So. There's very few records that are. That are great, that are really interesting. So Warren Buffett was talking in the share letters was talking about the fact that him and Charlie Munger have spent decade after decade after decade of intense focus and studying of business, just like Rick Rubin has spent decade after decade of intense focus on music, right? So Rick Rubin starts his career in 18.

[Narrator/Reader]

He's turning 60 next year or maybe this year, and he's still doing the same job.

[Podcast Host]

That's what made me. I'm interested in him in general, because so many people that I like, admire and respect also like and admire, respect him. So I was like, okay, it's clear, no brainer, I should study this guy. I can clearly learn from something from him.

[Narrator/Reader]

But I'm obsessed, absolutely obsessed with people that do things for an extremely long time. How many people that you know have been working the same job or studying the same field, dedicating their.

[Podcast Host]

Their life to.

[Narrator/Reader]

To the same thing for 41 years.

[Podcast Host]

That's also why Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger is so interesting to me. The fact is they're, you know, 98. I think Charlie's 98 now, and I think Warren something like 93 or 92.

[Narrator/Reader]

And they're still working on the same thing they've been interested in since they.

[Podcast Host]

Were, you know, in Warren's case, a teenager.

[Narrator/Reader]

And so Warren writes, our major contribution.

[Podcast Host]

To the operations of our subsidiaries, meaning the businesses that he owns, is applause.

[Narrator/Reader]

It's not the indiscriminate applause of a Pollyanna.

[Podcast Host]

That's like an old school word I had to look up. It's just like an excessively cheerful or optimistic person. So he's like, it's not word. We're not just applauding because we're just excited or we're optimistic. Rather, it's informed applause. That was a really interesting phrase he chose there.

[Narrator/Reader]

Rather, it is the informed applause based upon the two long careers that we have spent intensively observing business performance and managerial behavior.

[Podcast Host]

And so Warren's saying, before I get to his punchline, he's saying, listen, me and Charlie have dedicated our lives to this.

[Narrator/Reader]

We've seen a ton of different businesses. The vast majority are mediocre. Just like Rick Rubin saying, the vast majority of anything is going to be mediocre. And so if Rick Rubin is admiring.

[Podcast Host]

What you're doing, just like if Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett are admiring what you're doing, there's like an added importance on their opinion.

[Narrator/Reader]

Right? And this is why Charlie and I have seen so much of the ordinary in business that we can truly appreciate a virtuoso performance.

[Podcast Host]

And if you work back from what he's saying is most businesses are poorly run or averagely are run in an average manner. Most managers, most CEOs are either poor at their job or average. So it pays to pay attention to the people that are putting on virtuoso performances. They know something that others don't.

[Narrator/Reader]

And then two more things from this.

[Podcast Host]

Section that we've, that you and I have talked about over and over again. Love what you do or find something else. Estee Lauder once said, love your career or find another. That's the perfect way to describe it.

[Narrator/Reader]

So he says the bottom line for Ruben to take on any projects is.

[Podcast Host]

I'm falling in love. When he feels like he's falling in love with the artist, with their work, he's like, okay, this is the person I want to work with. Think about the best products or services that you happen to use personally. They're undoubtedly can be traced back to somebody that gives a damn. They truly love what they do. And then he goes to. This is. I mean, I feel like the entire last. On the In N Out, the podcast I did on the founder of In N Out Burger, I think, like, he just had one. Essentially one thing he just repeats over and over again. I'm not sacrificing quality for anything. Not sacrificing for a partner, not sacrificing it for employees, anybody. I'm going to pray at the altar of quality. Above all, Rick Rubin Says the same thing.

[Narrator/Reader]

I believe in the quality of content over everything else.

[Podcast Host]

This is also something he repeats over and over again in all the interviews I watch with him.

[Narrator/Reader]

So we spend.

[Podcast Host]

Me and the artist spend a great deal of time working on material long.

[Narrator/Reader]

Before we ever think about going into the recording studio. This is so, so important.

[Podcast Host]

I would summarize in the maxim that I repeat to you over and over again. The public praises people for what they practice in private. The public praises people for what they practice in private. So before you hear this album, where they go into the studio and they record. And in many cases, I would go through. Because the book goes through in order.

[Narrator/Reader]

Like, from the 80s, 90s all the.

[Podcast Host]

Way up to 2000s. This book is still almost 15 years old, so it's missing out on, like, his latest stuff, but it goes through, like, his approach and every single project, like, not every single one, but some of his, like, most his best, or, like, classic projects, like how. What.

[Narrator/Reader]

What role did he play? What were his thoughts?

[Podcast Host]

All that stuff. It was very fascinating.

[Narrator/Reader]

So what I would do is as.

[Podcast Host]

I. I would read the chapters. I'd also be listening to some of the albums. But that idea about how long he's like, listen, you can't predict. Sometimes it takes a few months. Sometimes we're working on the same album for multiple years. And so in that documentary, Shangri La, he's talking to LL Cool J. LL Cool J winds up being one of the first people he signs. He signs LL Cool J.

[Narrator/Reader]

When LL cool J was 16 years old, Rick Rubin was 20. That's how I get there.

[Podcast Host]

It's crazy how that happens, too. There's a lot of ideas for us in that section, but they're so they're.

[Narrator/Reader]

Talking now as older men.

[Podcast Host]

This documentary just came in the last few years. And he says something to Ello asks, like, what increases the chances of, like, writing a great song? And he says, just practice. Be diligent in the process of always looking.

[Narrator/Reader]

If you need 10 songs, you might need to write 50 or a thousand songs to find 10 good ones.

[Podcast Host]

It's like fishing. You can't say that you'll catch a fish today, but you show up and.

[Narrator/Reader]

Fish every day and your chances get better.

[Podcast Host]

And so that is another main theme, I think, of the philosophy of Rick.

[Narrator/Reader]

Rubin is the fact that he's obsessed with simplicity.

[Podcast Host]

He wants only what is essential, right?

[Narrator/Reader]

But to whittle down, to get to that simplicity, he will encourage you to do more.

[Podcast Host]

He is by far a workaholic, for sure. And so he's like, if I want.

[Narrator/Reader]

To get the 10 most perfect songs, we might have to go through 50, 100, a thousand songs. And I think that's extremely important to.

[Podcast Host]

Keep in mind how much work is required. You cannot deceive yourself about what. What the. What this game requires. That's a quote from. From Michael Jordan. But I think about, like, what Steve Jobs said. He's like, listen, when you're designing a product, it's keeping 5,000 things in your brain and fitting them all together in.

[Narrator/Reader]

New and different ways.

[Podcast Host]

And then I would combine that quote from Steve Jobs with another one of my favorite quotes of his, and he says, there's a tremendous amount of craftsmanship between an idea and a finished product. And that's exactly what Rick Rubin is.

[Narrator/Reader]

Describing to us in this book. We spend a great deal of time working on material long before we ever.

[Podcast Host]

Think about going into a recording studio. I do the exact same thing. The reason I feel comfortable asking, like, recommending founders to my friends and family and people I truly, you know, care about, the most important people in my.

[Narrator/Reader]

Life, is because I know how much effort and work goes into every single episode before I sit down to talk to you. Without exception, before every single episode, I have to read. At the very minimum, I have to read an entire book. And in Rick Rubin's case, I told you, I've probably spent 40 hours, like, deeply ingesting who he is as a person, how he thinks. And you have to filter through all that to maybe get.

[Podcast Host]

You know, maybe I could talk to.

[Narrator/Reader]

You for an hour, maybe two hours.

[Podcast Host]

I don't even know how long it's going to last because I'm barely a.

[Narrator/Reader]

Few pages into this book. I haven't even got to the beginning of the copious amount of notes I took.

[Podcast Host]

But I just.

[Narrator/Reader]

I really believe that with.

[Podcast Host]

With my entire soul. I think the best thing. The things that you and I most admire, they spent a great deal of.

[Narrator/Reader]

Time, way more time than we could.

[Podcast Host]

Ever believe, working on it before we ever get to see it. And so I just turned the page, and I ran over my own point. The note I left myself on. This is Ruben's advice.

[Narrator/Reader]

Do more. Ruben feels the real work of making.

[Podcast Host]

An album is in the songwriting, but.

[Narrator/Reader]

That work can be drudgery. Writing is dull and unglamorous stuff. For most people, it's really pretty miserable. But if you write 30 songs, there's a better chance that the 10 on your album will be better than if you just write 10.

[Podcast Host]

So he's like, less is More, but you have to do more to get to less, is the way I would describe Rick's philosophy. And then he talks about something over and over again. He's like, listen, you, you need to have an open mind. He's like, we know next to nothing. So the idea you can predict, like you have an idea of what a great product is, but the idea is you're going to get it right the first time. He's like, you've got to experiment, you've got to iterate.

[Narrator/Reader]

I would say this reminds me very.

[Podcast Host]

Much of I've told you. My favorite book that I've ever read for the podcast was James Dyson's autobiography. I read two of them. His second autobiography, when he wrote as an old man, is very interesting, but the one that he wrote right after having struggling for 15 years. And finally Dyson is on somewhat solid footing. But when he published that book, between then and now, his business is like probably 300 times bigger. But that book is all about the struggle, the early days of that. Every single person that's trying to do something difficult, whether you're starting a company, trying to be a musician, whatever it is, you know that story, you felt you've lived that story. And in that book he just constantly talks about it. He's like, listen, just experiment. He calls it the Edisonian from Thomas Edison. The Edisonian principle of designing a product. And I think Steve Jobs would agree with that too. Or not Steve Jobs.

[Narrator/Reader]

I think Rick Rubin would agree with that too, because listen to what he's about to say. This is one of the things we.

[Podcast Host]

Talk about at the beginning of a project.

[Narrator/Reader]

Let's try every idea and see where it takes us. Don't prejudge it. Sometimes it still comes up where someone in the band makes a suggestion and part of me says, that's a bad idea.

[Podcast Host]

Let's not waste time on that. And then I stop myself and think, let's try it. Let's experiment and see what it sounds like. And very often it sounds good. So think about the lesson behind with that simple paragraph, right? It's like, you got to try it. There's so many times in my own.

[Narrator/Reader]

Experience where somebody says something like, oh, that's going to suck. And then we do it and it doesn't suck. So clearly the lesson is you got to experiment. Just don't prejudge it.

[Podcast Host]

Create a demo, create a prototype, put.

[Narrator/Reader]

It out to some customers, whatever your process is, and then see what happens.

[Podcast Host]

This next sentence is really important. I double underlined it.

[Narrator/Reader]

Ruben's most valuable quality is his own confidence.

[Podcast Host]

The reason that's important is because you can transfer that feeling, that confidence that you have to other people. So every day, my form of practice is I go back and I reread past highlights from all the books, and I have over 20,000 highlights, right? And one I just happened to be reading yesterday, which I had forgot because Steve Jobs, when he was young, he. One of his best friends had joined, like, this religious cult in San Francisco. Her name's Elizabeth. And part of the cult's rules were that you have to cut off everybody from your old life. And Steve Jobs just shows up at the cult house, and he just completely rejected that. He's like, nope, she's coming with me, and there's nothing you can do about it. And so they wind up traveling to this apple farm, and they talk about the fact that Elizabeth was telling the story about Steve Jobs, and she said something that was really fascinating.

[Narrator/Reader]

And she said he had the attitude that he could do anything, and therefore so can you.

[Podcast Host]

And she talks about the fact that he helped her believe in herself. She didn't have the confidence, obviously, if you're a really strong personality, probably not going to be joining some kind of religious cult.

[Narrator/Reader]

But the fact that he had this.

[Podcast Host]

Abundance of confidence, like, oh, I should have that self confidence too. And I think Rick is really known for that because I listened to a lot of the people that he produced records for, and they said that they're like, he brought out the best of me. He made me believe in myself. And in some cases, it's really crazy because people were super successful. Like Johnny Cash said that Neil diamond, all these people that had remarkable careers, and maybe they struggled for a few years, and so their confidence was dented, which is shocking. That Johnny Cash, right, one of the most legendary musicians to ever live towards the end of his life, before he starts, I think he did the last three albums of his life, he did with Rick Rubin. He's just like, oh, I didn't think I had it anymore.

[Narrator/Reader]

So let's go back to this.

[Podcast Host]

This goes back to Rubin's fanaticism with just stripping everything down to its essence. He loves minimalism, simplicity.

[Narrator/Reader]

A good test of a song's metal.

[Podcast Host]

Is stripping down to its basics. If a. So this is what he says. If a song is great on an.

[Narrator/Reader]

Acoustic guitar, you can make a hundred.

[Podcast Host]

Different versions of that song, and it's going to still be great. Then he goes back to the importance of preparing before you show up. The importance of practice, he says, as Detailed and lengthy as the pre production.

[Narrator/Reader]

Process can be, Reuben's productions tend to be quite short on on actual in studio time.

[Podcast Host]

And this is what he says. I often make records faster than a lot of other people.

[Narrator/Reader]

It usually has to do with how prepared we are in advance. It's the pre production time that really makes all the difference.

[Podcast Host]

Sometimes it's a couple weeks, sometimes it's a few months, sometimes it's a year or two to get ready to go into the studio and cut the whole album in a week.

[Narrator/Reader]

My preference is always to get as much done before you go in to.

[Podcast Host]

The studio as possible. More advice for artists I think we can apply to whatever work that we're doing.

[Narrator/Reader]

You combine really high expectations with the.

[Podcast Host]

Belief that your life depends on this work.

[Narrator/Reader]

Ruben continues to rally his collaborators, asking, asking them to set their expectations of themselves really high. If we're going to do this, let's aim for greatness. You have to believe what you are.

[Podcast Host]

Doing is the most important thing in the world. And so not only in this book, but also in a bunch of the conversations I heard him have, he talks about his role. He thinks almost like the role is like a coach or somewhat of like a teacher.

[Narrator/Reader]

And so this is a little bit about that. And he says, listen, a key part of my job is simply listening. A lot of artists really like having someone to bounce things off of because it's hard to truly know.

[Podcast Host]

This is very similar to what when I covered Charlie Munger's fantastic biography. Damn Right is the name of the book. It's episode 221. He said something in that book that I thought was really fantastic. He talks about the role he played with Warren Buffett.

[Narrator/Reader]

And he says, listen, everybody engaged in.

[Podcast Host]

Complicated work needs colleagues.

[Narrator/Reader]

Just the discipline of having to put your thoughts in order with somebody else.

[Podcast Host]

Is a very useful thing. So what the process Charlie's describing is.

[Narrator/Reader]

The exact same process that Rick Rubin.

[Podcast Host]

Is describing that he has. Charlie has it with Warren Buffett and some of their business partners. Rick Rubin has it with the musicians that he's producing for. And then he continues describing his, his process of how he works. I'm going to read you a couple highlights from these two pages. The way I would summarize the section for my own thoughts was that your.

[Narrator/Reader]

Work is a reflection of you. And so it says, although he's a very private person, Ruben doesn't shy away from making his professional life very personal. I'm doing things that touch me personally and that I feel and I am moved by Ruben is very clear on.

[Podcast Host]

What his strengths and limitations are.

[Narrator/Reader]

I don't know how to work a board. I don't turn knobs. I have no technical ability whatsoever. My primary asset is I know when.

[Podcast Host]

I like something or not.

[Narrator/Reader]

It always comes down to taste. I'm there for any key creative decision. He summed up the drive behind his.

[Podcast Host]

Life'S work very simply. I'm just trying to make my favorite music. And so think about that line, I'm just trying to make my favorite music. On one of these podcasts I was listening to, he was asked, do you have any advice for young people? And he says, the only advice I have is to not listen to anyone and do what you love and make your favorite things.

[Narrator/Reader]

Be the audience. Be the audience. Make the thing for you, the audience. You can't make something great with someone else in mind.

[Podcast Host]

So then we're going to get into his early life. So he had three main loves that he discovered really early. His love of music, his love of magic, and his love of professional wrestling. So he's got to pick one, right? He obviously chose music, but his love of magic and his love of professional wrestling, he uses those influences in his work. He did it from a very young age. He still continues to use it to this day.

[Narrator/Reader]

And so it says, Ruben spent his formative years in the hard rock glory days of the 1970s. I loved AC DC, he said. The group's minimalist approach would show up years later in his sonic approach to recording rock records and even in the way he constructed hip hop albums. And this is what he says, there's so little adornment.

[Podcast Host]

So going back to that, that main theme, simplify his push for minimalism. Just, I want the essence of the song and nothing more. In fact, he talks about something that's very interesting. Let me find my note on it real quick. This is really one of the clearest ways he described him. Like, why he constantly simplifies, like, why I'm not a producer, I'm a reducer is the way to think of it. I'm not a producer, I'm a reducer. That's a really fascinating thought. If you. If you sit there and think about it for a while, this is the reason he simplifies.

[Narrator/Reader]

He says, often when you're in the.

[Podcast Host]

Studio, there'll be an idea that we need to add layers to make the song seem bigger.

[Narrator/Reader]

But what we discovered is sometimes the more things you add, the smaller it gets.

[Podcast Host]

And a lot of that is counterintuitive. You need to discover it in practice. And so back to his early life.

[Narrator/Reader]

It says Ruben immersed himself in the.

[Podcast Host]

World of rock and roll.

[Narrator/Reader]

He had the requisite long hair, the leather jacket, and a position as a lead guitarist in a punk band. One part of the lifestyle, though, he avoided entirely was alcohol and drugs.

[Podcast Host]

And on the Peter Tia interview, they talked about that for several minutes about, like, why so many people, including that. That Rick worked with, like, they died of drug and alcohol overdoses. And so there is a.

[Narrator/Reader]

There is a discipline.

[Podcast Host]

And it seems weird because you look at the guy, maybe hear him speak, he seems kind of calm and mellow, but he has extreme levels of discipline. And part of that discipline is just avoiding things like not trying to be brilliant, but avoiding obvious, dumb things, obviously things that are not good for your life. No one thinks, hey, heroin's good for my life. Hey, excessive cocaine habit is good for my life. Drinking all the time is good for my life.

[Narrator/Reader]

And so it says one part of that lifestyle he avoided entirely was alcohol and drugs. Ruben had a discipline and focus rare for someone his age.

[Podcast Host]

And he just explains it very simply. Like everything else, I just didn't want to give up any of my time. I was deeply into something meaning music. So his love of music kept Rubin.

[Narrator/Reader]

From the need to distract or entertain himself with drugs. Before music, his deep focus was on magic.

[Podcast Host]

From the time I was nine years old, I loved magic.

[Narrator/Reader]

Even though I was a little kid, I'd take the train from Long island into Manhattan, and I'd hang out in magic shops.

[Podcast Host]

I still think about magic all the time.

[Narrator/Reader]

Ruben's fascination with and love for magic and music was something that delighted his endlessly supportive parents.

[Podcast Host]

So this is good. His mom and dad just. They were.

[Narrator/Reader]

He had dreams.

[Podcast Host]

Not dreams. He. His idea is like, you can't make money in music. Like, that was just gonna be a hobby. So he's like. Originally, he's like, I'll go to nyu.

[Narrator/Reader]

Then I'll go to law school.

[Podcast Host]

And the idea is like, I'll just have a day job, and then I'll make music as a hobby. And the day job just allows me to fund my hobby. And no matter what, like, the fact that he. His parents. He told his parents he's gonna be attorney, and he switches off. He's like, I'm this music producer. I'm going to go to California. I'm going to do all these things. His parents are like, okay, that sounds good to me.

[Narrator/Reader]

So says his parents were endlessly supportive who showed the same devotion to their son as he did to his passions. Ruben's mother would drive him to concerts in New York City, wait outside the venue until the show was over, no matter how late the hour, and then drive her son home for a few precious hours of sleep before waking him.

[Podcast Host]

Up for school the next day. And then his quote for his senior year, they say it's his graduation quote, was pretty prophetic. And it gives you an idea of who this person is.

[Narrator/Reader]

I want to play loud, I want.

[Podcast Host]

To be heard, and I want all to know I'm not one of the herd. And so now we get into the founding of his first company. At the beginning of every section, there's like these quotes, this advice from Rick Rubin. This is the first one.

[Narrator/Reader]

The key to it is doing what you believe in as opposed to what you think is going to work. There were never any plans to make anything happen. I just did what I liked and.

[Podcast Host]

Believed in it and luckily it all worked out. And so the birth of him making music and him eventually founding Def Jam is because he just saw a gap in the market. It wasn't anything more complicated than that.

[Narrator/Reader]

Ruben began his career as a dj, throwing parties in his NYU dorm room. The move from DJ to producer resulted from a dearth of good material for him to play. I didn't know anything about the record business, but I recognized that hip hop records that were coming out that I would buy as a fan and the music that I would hear when I go to the club were two different things. What I set out to do as a fan, he repeats it, was to make records that sounded like what I liked about going to a hip hop club.

[Podcast Host]

So his point is this is very like, think about the top down nature of most industries, top down nature of the music industry at this time. It's like, no, this is what we're making. But that, that comes from like executives or whatever the case is. Like, this is what we're pushing out where what's taking place in these underground hip hop and metal clubs that he's going to. And this is the early 80s, that is the bottom up.

[Narrator/Reader]

Because as the DJ, you play something, you get immediate feedback from the audience.

[Podcast Host]

The record executives are separated from what the actual customer wants, right? It's like, no, we're pushing this down the channel where Rumen's like, why don't we just, like, why don't we just make records that we like?

[Narrator/Reader]

And we know we like them because.

[Podcast Host]

When they, they get played at these.

[Narrator/Reader]

Clothes room, people go crazy again. That's like a simple idea that you.

[Podcast Host]

Can build A like a very valuable company around. I remember hearing Elon Musk give this interview one time. There's a documentary that Elon watched, and I happened to watch it too. It's like, who killed the electric car? I think it's called. And GM had done an electric car, and they. They made maybe like, I don't know, like a thousand, two thousand, some small number like that. But that electric car had like, a cult following. So much that when GM closed the.

[Narrator/Reader]

Program, they repossessed the cars.

[Podcast Host]

You couldn't own them. If I'm not mistaken, they were leasing. I could be mistaken on the details, but the punchline, I remember correctly. And so the people were so distraught that GM forcibly removed their cars from them that when they went to, like, be impounded and essentially GM destroyed the cars, they held a candlelight vigil. And so Elon said that. And I heard him in an interview one time. He goes, when's the last time somebody held a candlelight vigil for a product?

[Narrator/Reader]

That one simple sentence like, clearly, there's a demand here.

[Podcast Host]

If we. If I can build an electric car and make it affordable, like, people will respond.

[Narrator/Reader]

When is the last time you heard of people having a candlelight vigil for a product? So I just love.

[Podcast Host]

I'm completely obsessed with these, like, these just basic observations like, oh, that's pretty simple. I can actually build a very valuable company, very, very valuable life just off that. And Rick's like, well, this is weird. I'm buying hip hop albums, right? And they sound one way. But when I go to the club.

[Narrator/Reader]

People are going crazy for hip hop albums that sound completely different.

[Podcast Host]

Why don't we just make more of those? And so he says, I just saw.

[Narrator/Reader]

This void, and I started making those records just because I was a fan and wanted them to exist. So this is where he starts Def Jam.

[Podcast Host]

He's like, all right.

[Narrator/Reader]

So he does a song.

[Podcast Host]

It's called It's Yours. It's one of the first things he produced. And again, he.

[Narrator/Reader]

Because he's a fan, he knows what other.

[Podcast Host]

Like, what he likes. And he clearly knows because he's going to the clubs what other people like.

[Narrator/Reader]

He's like, okay, I'm gonna make this record.

[Podcast Host]

I'm gonna make an album just because no one else is doing this. So I have to do it. His goal here is like, I'm just going to break even, right? I just want to cover my cost so I can keep making records.

[Narrator/Reader]

Watch what happens next. This is wild.

[Podcast Host]

It's just incredible. This is another example of, like, One opportunity leading to the next opportunity and leads to a next opportunity. You can't skip steps. Like, you got to get that first opportunity. Then once you get to it, like, I think about it, like climbing stairs or maybe climbing mountain. Like, once you get to that next peak, you.

[Narrator/Reader]

You look around the corner or look over and you're like, oh, there's something else farther away. I couldn't see at the very bottom.

[Podcast Host]

Of the mountain, but now I can. Then I can reach that.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says. Reuben approached the production of the song.

[Podcast Host]

From a fan's point of view.

[Narrator/Reader]

Rubin borrowed $5,000 from his parents to press the single, imprinting Def Jam records on it.

[Podcast Host]

And he says, I was planning on.

[Narrator/Reader]

Putting it out myself, strictly for the purpose of breaking even, making back my costs. That was always my plan. As it turned out, this record was a hit. It sold 100,000 copies in the New York area. That was a very big deal.

[Podcast Host]

That is insane. And then he does something. He did something smart, too, on the sleeve. So when you're buying a physical record, right, it's literally a record on the sleeve. The director comes in, he put Def Jam recording and put his address.

[Narrator/Reader]

The address for Def Jam was his dorm room.

[Podcast Host]

And that's going to open up the next opportunity.

[Narrator/Reader]

The single sleeve listed Ruben's New York address, and that launched an onslaught of demos being mailed to him, which helped fuel the fires of Def Jam.

[Podcast Host]

So I'm gonna get to why that was so important. First we gotta. He's realizing, hey, this business is screwy.

[Narrator/Reader]

Despite the song success, Ruben never made.

[Podcast Host]

A dime on the record. So this is all coming full circle. Because in that podcast I did on Jay Z, Jay Z talks about. He said, listen, man, I studied the reason I came in the game independent. I own my own record label, which is extremely rare. When Jay Z did that in 96.

[Narrator/Reader]

Because he studied the founding of Def.

[Podcast Host]

Jam and he learned from it. He read that book. I think it's called Hitman, Hitmen or Hitman. And it talks about all the people that were making the music and putting the music out and doing all the work. None of those guys got paid. It was all the record executives and the CEOs that came through. You know, this is. This is a tale as old as time. This is where we are in the story. So essentially, like we're living through right now what Jay Z is going to learn from 10 years later.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says, enter Russell Simmons.

[Podcast Host]

So this is going to be Rick Rubin's co founder. This is also going to be the guy Russell Simmons that Jay Z talked about, he's like, he was an informal mentor for me. I go to meet with him when we're getting signed to Def Jam. I'm sitting across the table from him. He's like, I don't want to be your artist. I want to be you. I want to be the hip hop mogul.

[Narrator/Reader]

There was no such thing as a.

[Podcast Host]

Hip hop mogul until Russell Simmons appeared. He was the very first hip hop mogul.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says, enter Russell Simmons on.

[Podcast Host]

The recommendation of some other record owner. So some other record owner, record label owner, is the one that's going to introduce Rick Rubin and Russell Simmons. And the reason that Rick wanted to meet with him, because that guy said of Simmons, no one promotes rap records better.

[Narrator/Reader]

Rubin felt that while most of the rap records at the time weren't any good.

[Podcast Host]

See that. That thing, same thing pops up. A lot of stuff out there is mediocre.

[Narrator/Reader]

So I'm thinking, hey, most of the.

[Podcast Host]

Rap records aren't very good.

[Narrator/Reader]

The ones that were good always had.

[Podcast Host]

Russell Simmons name on them. So he's the manager of the best rap acts around.

[Narrator/Reader]

In Ruben's opinion at the time, that partnership would revolutionize.

[Podcast Host]

Hip hop began with a simple meeting. They meet at a party, and Russell's talking about, hey, that album you just produced, the one you sold 100,000 copies. I said, I love it.

[Narrator/Reader]

He said, it was his favorite record.

[Podcast Host]

And he was excited to meet me. And he couldn't believe that I was white.

[Narrator/Reader]

There was nobody white doing anything in hip hop. And here was his favorite hip hop record made by a white guy. I was really excited to meet him. He was already a mogul of rap music. Even though there was no business. It was just a small underground scene. The two became fast friends. We did everything together. We would be together in the studio every night. Rubin and Simmons shared a love of hip hop, a vision of where they felt it should head both musically and commercially. And one other thing. Both had hit records under their belts.

[Podcast Host]

But no profit to show for it. And so they both arrive at the conclusion like, this is dumb. These people aren't paying us, so let's just do it ourselves. And so it says Def Jam was set up to overcome business obstacles. Instead of going to somebody and asking them to. This is Ruben talking. Instead of going to somebody and asking them to do things that needed to get done and not getting them done, it's just easier if we take on the responsibility. It wasn't going to get done unless we did it.

[Narrator/Reader]

So Ruben Needed an artist to launch.

[Podcast Host]

Def Jam, the hip hop version of Def Jam, right? The one he's doing with Russell Simmons. And the reason I said, like, it's the importance of like stacking one opportunity on another is if he'd never had that hit single and if he never put his address on it, he would have never met LL Cool J. So that's one opportunity he had to get to before he got to his next opportunity. This is the next opportunity. Ruben had just the right artist to launch the new formalized partnership. A young rapper whose demo was one of the hundreds that had been sent to his dorm room. LL Cool J, who is 16 years old at this time. And Ruben's giving us context of just. He's in the very early days of what is now a gigantic industry. The hip hop industry is massive.

[Narrator/Reader]

He says there's no, there were no.

[Podcast Host]

Stars in rap music.

[Narrator/Reader]

It was really just a work of passion. Everyone who was doing it was doing.

[Podcast Host]

It because they loved it, not because anyone thought it was a career.

[Narrator/Reader]

We just tried to do something we liked. How many times has it repeated that we're not even one quarter of the way in the book.

[Podcast Host]

And he said, I just did something I loved.

[Narrator/Reader]

Just try to focus.

[Podcast Host]

Like, I'm the first listener, I'm the first customer. We just tried to do something we like. There was no expectations whatsoever. The only hope was that we would sell enough records to make enough money to make another record. So the partnership between Rick Rubin and Russell Simmons is only going to last for a few years. But while they were together, they actually, they were well matched because it's really important to find a partner that has the skills you lack. So Ruben is going to be in the studio with the artist making the records, and then Simmons is going to be the one promoting them. And he was really good. Both of them were really gifted at their respective strengths. Right.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says Reuben then would then pass the baton to Simmons, whose promotional expertise pushed the fresh, fresh new sound of the music onto the airwaves of local hip hop stations and into the city's hip hop clubs. Simmons had a talent in old school hustling.

[Podcast Host]

So they went up selling so many of these singles that CBS Records gets their attention and they offer a development.

[Narrator/Reader]

Deal with a $600,000 advance, which was.

[Podcast Host]

More money than they could even imagine at the time.

[Narrator/Reader]

And so it says time would prove this deal to be merely a foot in the door that they would kick open a year later. But for 20 year old Rick Rubin, it was a major milestone. I Sent a Xerox of the check to my parents. That's when this stopped being a hobby.

[Podcast Host]

And so then Russell Simmons has a really smart marketing push. He's like, let's make a movie about this story of the early years of Def Jam. Because we're just a few years into the story. That movie he winds up getting made is Crush Groove.

[Narrator/Reader]

And it was a movie, but it.

[Podcast Host]

Was really content marketing for Def Jam and their artists. You can actually find the entire Crush Groove movie is on YouTube right now. I was actually watching it last night.

[Narrator/Reader]

And Rick Rubin plays Rick Rubin in the movie.

[Podcast Host]

It's fantastic.

[Narrator/Reader]

Crush Groove was a marketing vehicle Russell Simmons dreamed up to introduce their label and artist roster.

[Podcast Host]

So it introduced the world to people like Fat Boys, LL Cool J, the.

[Narrator/Reader]

Beastie Boys, and Run dmc.

[Podcast Host]

And the reason I'm bringing this to your attention is the next sentence that I double underlined that I think is extremely important for all founders or anybody trying to get attention to their work. Right.

[Narrator/Reader]

Russell really cared about finding new ways.

[Podcast Host]

To expose their music to, to a bigger audience. It is very creative. And the person I think did this, the best out of anybody that in recent memory to me is Michael Bloomberg. And I didn't know that before I read his autobiography, it's founders228. If you haven't listened to it. The main listening main reason to listen to that podcast, other than his story, is insane. The fact that he owns that company. It's still a private company, makes billions of dollars a year right now.

[Narrator/Reader]

Michael Bloomberg had a lot of creative.

[Podcast Host]

Ways to get his product in front of of potential customers. And that skill is the foundation what allowed his business to grow into a large, extremely profitable business. But it's just so clever the way he thought about these things and what he actually put into work. Very similar to this. Like, the idea is like, who's going to think, hey, I'm starting a record label. I've sold a little bit of singles clubs like my music. The radio likes my music. I have, you know, four or five acts signed to my record label. All of them are going to be super famous in their own day, but they're not famous yet. And it's like, hey, let's make a movie.

[Narrator/Reader]

This is 1988, maybe 80, somewhere around there, 86, like mid to late 80s.

[Podcast Host]

How the hell did you even figure out that idea?

[Narrator/Reader]

Like, that's remarkable. And so on the back of some.

[Podcast Host]

Of the success of their music that they had put out, they wind up finding a Warner Brothers studio, agrees to.

[Narrator/Reader]

Fund the $3 million film budget. So it says Warner Brothers agreed to.

[Podcast Host]

Finance the $3 million film budget.

[Narrator/Reader]

The picture's green light led CBS, who.

[Podcast Host]

They had signed their deal with, to.

[Narrator/Reader]

Change the terms of their original development deal.

[Podcast Host]

These are the people that just gave them 600 grand right now. They changed, like, wow, you guys are getting real popular.

[Narrator/Reader]

They changed the original development deal with Def Jam. Signing Def jam to a $2 million.

[Podcast Host]

Distribution deal in what Russell Simmons described as the greatest opportunity in the whole world. And again, this is happening in 85. So that they signed that deal in 85. So think about that. Like, within one year, they go from 600,000. This is amazing. Can't believe this is happening. To signing for 2 million and having a major motion picture studio agreed to finance $3 million of what is essentially content marketing in the form of a movie. And it was being a smart investment by Warner Brothers, by the way, because they spent 3 million on the movie. And the movie winds up making $11 million at the box office.

[Narrator/Reader]

One of the biggest hits that Rick.

[Podcast Host]

Rubin's going to have in this point of his career, like a mainstream hit. Beastie Boys winds up being the first hip hop album ever to go to number one, which he produced. But he does. He has the idea to do this crossover song between Run DMC and Aerosmith. And Run DMC is kind of well known at the time. Aerosmith is like orders of magnitude more famous.

[Narrator/Reader]

And this would have never happened if.

[Podcast Host]

Rick Rubin didn't have an excessive, excessive amount of self confidence. This is something that is talked about over and over again by the people he works with that he believes so much that he makes you believe. Very similar to that Steve Jobs quote I just read to you earlier. And so I'm going to get into this.

[Narrator/Reader]

It says Ruben's desire to work with Rum D and C dated back to the early 80s, when Ruben, upon hearing the group's first music, had boldly commented, this is the real shit, but I.

[Podcast Host]

Could do it better. And so that level of self confidence, right, you need that. That level of self confidence is mandatory to even approach.

[Narrator/Reader]

So he's like, yeah, not only could I do it better, I'm going to.

[Podcast Host]

Convince Aerosmith, who were, again, world famous.

[Narrator/Reader]

They'Re, like, operating in a completely different.

[Podcast Host]

World than Rick Rubin. He's like, okay, well, I'm going to sell both Run DMC and Aerosmith on Walk this Way.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says Reuben sold both groups on the idea. And once they were together, it was interesting.

[Podcast Host]

This is what he says.

[Narrator/Reader]

It was Interesting because it was very two, very, two very different cultures. We were all kids, but Aerosmith was already Aerosmith. They carried themselves in a different way than we did because they were real.

[Podcast Host]

Rock stars and we were college students.

[Narrator/Reader]

It was an awe inspiring experience for me because I grew up on Aerosmith.

[Podcast Host]

And I loved them.

[Narrator/Reader]

I also knew how great they were. So I became fair.

[Podcast Host]

And then think about this, how crazy it is.

[Narrator/Reader]

Like I admire them.

[Podcast Host]

They're almost like my idols.

[Narrator/Reader]

And yet when he gets in there.

[Podcast Host]

And running the production of this, this.

[Narrator/Reader]

Of the music, he still applies his, his excessive, I wouldn't say control because.

[Podcast Host]

That'S not the right word, but it's.

[Narrator/Reader]

Like his high standards, so he says. So I became fairly demanding with what I asked them to play and contribute. Both sides really didn't know what to make of it.

[Podcast Host]

And so this is another example of something that Ruben uses for his entire career. He wants authenticity just like other humans. Like, he wants it to be really simple.

[Narrator/Reader]

So his vision for the music, for.

[Podcast Host]

What they're doing with Run DMC and Aerosmith is also the vision that he applies over and over again.

[Narrator/Reader]

His vision was to capture something raw, musical and ferocious. The music that we liked wasn't glossy and shiny. He said it sounded rough and raw, authentic. It was raw like a documentary.

[Podcast Host]

So it's like, I'm not making a movie, I'm making a documentary. That's interesting. It was raw, authentic. He used that word, raw over and over again. It's not glossy and shiny. It sounded rough and raw. And then on the very next page, he continues to elaborate on that perspective.

[Narrator/Reader]

The music we were making wasn't slick. There's a homemade and handmade quality to it.

[Podcast Host]

So think about that. Because music is a product that gets to scale, right? It's not just one person's listened to it. How many people have listened to Walk this Way over the life of that song?

[Narrator/Reader]

Tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions of people. So I thought that idea was really fascinating.

[Podcast Host]

It's like it's a handmade product at scale. A handmade product at scale.

[Narrator/Reader]

So after that, he gets the biggest.

[Podcast Host]

Opportunity, the biggest breakthrough of his early career. And that's when he's going to produce Beastie Boys album Licensed to Ill. This winds up being what he's working on. Winds up being Hip Hop's first number one album. It's the first time it's like, oh, wow, this is the very beginning of an industry that's going to grow even larger. Think about this, 10 years later, Jay.

[Narrator/Reader]

Z's still looking at this, why it's.

[Podcast Host]

So important to like, in my opinion, to go back and study the very beginnings of industries, right?

[Narrator/Reader]

We've done this.

[Podcast Host]

You and I have done this together. Beginning of Silicon Valley not only is like the computer chip industry, the personal computer industry, the software industry. I just did a podcast on the very beginning of the aviation industry. I've done like 13 podcasts on the very beginning of the American automotive industry.

[Narrator/Reader]

There is so many things that just.

[Podcast Host]

Happen over and over again. They're all making different things. Some people are making computer chips, some making software, Some people are making planes, cars. Rick Rubin's making hip hop music.

[Narrator/Reader]

It's the same thing. You think it's too late. There's over and over again people like.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, you know, it's too late. It's all right, the ship has already passed.

[Narrator/Reader]

No, these things take forever. So at this point, we're in the story. Ten years later, Jay Z's like, hey.

[Podcast Host]

I can't say that I thought I was going to get rich off rap.

[Narrator/Reader]

All I knew that it was clearly, clearly going to be a lot bigger.

[Podcast Host]

Than it is now before it goes away. And then think about the growth between 1996, when he said that, and in present day, you know, 25, whatever, 20, 25 years later, it's still growing.

[Narrator/Reader]

So he was just dead on right about that.

[Podcast Host]

So just want to pull out one thing from, from, from this section and.

[Narrator/Reader]

Then I want to transition.

[Podcast Host]

I got a, I got a ton of highlights with the, with the book, but I want to go through my notes that I have actually written on all these talks that he gave because I think I'm going to forget to do that. And there's a lot of valuable things. So maybe I'll just give you like a stream of consciousness of, of Rick Rubin's ideas and then we'll jump back into the book.

[Narrator/Reader]

So this is Ruben talking about.

[Podcast Host]

And the reason I wanted to read the notes is because this is something that he talks about over and over again. It's only done when it can't be any better. But once something's done, just like, give it the time to be what it needs to be, but then move on like you shouldn't.

[Narrator/Reader]

He's got a really interesting way to.

[Podcast Host]

Not have regrets, which I think is very powerful for, for us, because having regrets so detrimental to you, it's so common in humanity and also so detrimental to us.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says Rubin maintained total autonomy.

[Podcast Host]

Over mixing the record.

[Narrator/Reader]

And it was in no rush. He says, listen, I would love for it to be done, but the reality of the creative process is it takes.

[Podcast Host]

However long it takes to be great. Very similar kind of echoes with these fights that Walt Disney would have with his brother. His brother was his partner. His brother's running the money. Walt Disney's obviously making the products. And he says, I'll tell you what it costs when it's done. We're innovating.

[Narrator/Reader]

I don't know why these things pop to my mind when I read these.

[Podcast Host]

Certain sentences that always draws back to something else you and I have talked about, but that's what I thought of there. He's like, listen, I would love it for be done. You know, I clearly don't want to.

[Narrator/Reader]

Be spending more time and money than it needs to be.

[Podcast Host]

But it's not perfect yet. It's not what I'm. I'm not happy with it. And he was right to do that because he held onto it till he was ready, and then he releases it, and it just opens up opportunity for literally millions of people in the future. That's how crazy. Like, that's how we.

[Narrator/Reader]

You and I know.

[Podcast Host]

Like, if you have founder mentality, like, you know, the world's not static. We can push it, we can bend it. We can actually influence the external world. It's crazy. At this point, he's. He's mixing and he's recording this album in a recording studio that used to be a Chinese. Old Chinese restaurant.

[Narrator/Reader]

And it was like this biggest, dumpy.

[Podcast Host]

Place because they don't have a lot of money, and you're just able, even without the best equipment, the best resources, he's able to make something truly, truly great. I find that, personally, extremely inspiring. And then before I jump to my notes, I just want to read one sentence to you that I double underlined. I just said, listen, we're still so, so early in all these things, in the Internet, in podcasts, in just a million different in technology in general.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says rap music as recorded work was just eight years old.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. So I'm just going to run through a couple, like, give you a stream of Rick Rubin consciousness so you can download. These are. I don't even know if these.

[Narrator/Reader]

These ideas are really related.

[Podcast Host]

I just thought they were so interesting that when I heard them, I pressed pause and kept rewinding until I wrote it down. Basically, I'm reading you like, oh, I need to remember this. Like, I don't want this to just to disappear. Like, I want to have record of it so I can go and reference it in the future. And maybe it gives me an idea, you know, maybe it doesn't give me an idea today. Maybe it gives me an idea, you know, 10 years from now, five years from now, whatever it is. So he has this idea he calls the Ruthless Edit. Again, his whole thing is, you got to do more to get to less, right? Less is better, but you got to do more to get there. So he says, listen, you made 25 songs. You need 10.

[Narrator/Reader]

Do not pick 10.

[Podcast Host]

Ask yourself, what are the five that.

[Narrator/Reader]

I absolutely cannot live without? And then before you add anything else, ask, what could I add to these.

[Podcast Host]

Five that I cannot live without that would make it better and not worse? So that is the idea of Ruthless Edit. I love that idea. This might be my favorite thing, he said, because I have this negative internal monologue that I think is absent from Ruben. And I think if I learn how to adapt his mindset more than my own mindset, I'll have more enjoyable experience for the rest of my life. So he says, do you have an engine of constant dissatisfaction? Do you have this constant self criticism that, oh, I could have done better? Which is very common that I've heard a lot of people have. But his answer was really surprising. He says, no, I'm pleased with the.

[Narrator/Reader]

Work that we did.

[Podcast Host]

I'm excited to keep working. It's fun. I don't know what else I'd do with myself. I like making things. It's fun. I feel like, oh, this is so good. This is so good. I feel like it's my reason to be on the planet. So I just keep doing it. And he elaborates, like, how do you arrive at this where you just don't have regrets?

[Narrator/Reader]

If it could be better, I would.

[Podcast Host]

Have kept working on it. If it could be better, it's not done. I have done everything I can to.

[Narrator/Reader]

Make it the best it can be.

[Podcast Host]

I can't do more than that.

[Narrator/Reader]

So there's nothing to be critical of.

[Podcast Host]

And this is his framework for his music. This mental model that I think I'm going to remember and take with me. My work is almost like a diary entry.

[Narrator/Reader]

Everything we make is a reflection in.

[Podcast Host]

A moment of time. It could be a day, it could be a year. It is a reflection in a moment in time. So it's like, I can't go back.

[Narrator/Reader]

His point is like, I can't go.

[Podcast Host]

Back and listen to stuff I did 25 years ago. Like, oh, I'd do it differently now because I did it to the best of my ability. As that version of Rick Rubin. It is a diary entry. It's not perfection. I like that idea. I think. I think that's actually really, really helpful. And he also says something really, really smart. He just nails regret. It's just a fantastic explanation of why it's something you have to. You don't want this in your older life or when you're older, rather. And so they're talking about this song that he did with Johnny Cash before Johnny Cash died, and it's called Hurt, and it is a cover of the guy from Nine Inch Nails. Trent Reznor wrote the song when he's 20. Okay, so he writes a song when he's 20. It's all about regret and pain and all this other stuff. And so Rick Rubin is going to say, hey, coming out of Trent Reznor at 20 is one thing. Coming out of Johnny cash when you're 70 years old, you're at the end of your life. It has a completely different meaning. And so, no, I love myself. Rick Rubin just nails regret. I'm just going to read it to you. When you're 20 years old and talking about regret, it's heartbreaking, but it's heartbreaking.

[Narrator/Reader]

In a different way because you have your whole life to figure it out. When you're looking back over your life.

[Podcast Host]

At the end, end of your life with regret, it's brutal.

[Narrator/Reader]

It's brutal.

[Podcast Host]

And I love that he repeated that the way he ended. It's brutal. It's brutal. He said it twice. It's the thing we have to avoid at all costs, because at that point, there's nothing you can do about it. Here's another random idea for you. The first thing that Rick asks when he's working with somebody else is what's the first thing that got you into music? So understanding of why are you doing what you're doing? It's so important. We talk about that all the time. Not only for us to know why we're doing what we're doing, but then to explain that to your customers. Customers resonate. They want to know why you're doing what you're doing. Another great line, this one comes from the documentary.

[Narrator/Reader]

He says these things that we don't.

[Podcast Host]

Understand and cannot explain happen regularly. And so these things that we don't understand and we cannot explain, they happen regularly. Another great line. Negativity is the enemy of creativity. Then he talks about how magical music is, why he thinks magic and pro wrestling, they all combine. They all understand the same thing. And he says they allow you to understand principles of how there is the surface reality where I think most people spend their time. That's what he's saying.

[Narrator/Reader]

And then there's this whole other bigger.

[Podcast Host]

Story going on behind it. So think, if you think of. Watch a magic trick, you see it happen. You can't believe. And he's like, that's what most people are like, oh, I can't believe that. That's what they're focused on.

[Narrator/Reader]

Rick is always focused on, like, what's.

[Podcast Host]

The actual story happening behind it? Same thing. We listen to an album. He knows I had to do that song a thousand times. Wrestling. It's almost like theater, like live theater. Like you're engaged in what's happening in the ring. I'm folk. I'm interested in like, what's the story? How did they. They wrote out the storyboards. Who are the characters? What roles are they playing?

[Narrator/Reader]

What are the psychological effects they're doing?

[Podcast Host]

And so that idea, there's always this whole other big story going on behind it. Then he talks about the importance of ignorance, of being naive. Before you try something. This has popped up over and over again. The history of entrepreneurships, entrepreneurship. There's so many examples, like the founder saying, hey, if I knew how hard.

[Narrator/Reader]

If I knew what I didn't know.

[Podcast Host]

I would have never started. If I knew how hard this was going to be, how long it was actually going to take, I wouldn't have ever started.

[Narrator/Reader]

So he says the amateur mind possesses.

[Podcast Host]

A valuable lack of knowledge about rules, which, when matched with passion and gumption, gravity ceases to exist and new things take flight. That's just fantastic. Language. When matched with passion and gumption, gravity ceases to exist and new things take flight. So then he talks about using what he learned from professional wrestling in the early days of his career as marketing.

[Narrator/Reader]

There's a video they played in the.

[Podcast Host]

Documentary that's happening in 1985 when he's trying to go out and promote the Beastie Boys album. And he's like yelling into. He's getting an interview on the streets in New York with a Beastie Boys and a reporter. And he's like, super hype. And you, you hear that? And he's like, people don't realize, like, I was just copying the, the bad guy wrestler character that I grew up on. He goes, that was performance art as a way of marketing. And so he's yelling, he's talking to the, to the reporter. It's not like in a rude. I mean, not really like, I mean, I didn't take it as like a mean way, but he's like, oh, I'm obviously talking over your head.

[Narrator/Reader]

This interview is over.

[Podcast Host]

Because he's like, the Beastie Boy is.

[Narrator/Reader]

The most important thing to ever happen to music.

[Podcast Host]

You know, if you ever watch professional wrestling, this like they're over the top. Like this is the best thing ever happened. Like this is the most important thing. It's completely provocative, I guess is the point. And the follow up question to this is interesting. They're like, well he was asked like using over the top professional wrestling marketing efforts, did it matter to you that a lot of people didn't understand what you were doing? So people thought, oh man, this guy's a jerk. Maybe this guy's crazy. He's yelling, saying he really believes the BC boys. The best thing ever happened to music. You know, how could you say that? There's Beatles, there's all these other people.

[Narrator/Reader]

That existed before that.

[Podcast Host]

And so he's like, did it matter to you that a lot of people didn't understand? And he had a one word answer that was perfect. Never. Let's go back to this unbelievable self belief he had they interview his college roommate. And he said, Rick was the most confident 19 year old I ever met. Even if he didn't know, he said and did like he knew. Another thing I love from the documentary he has, I mean this shouldn't be a surprise to you and I at this point, but he has extensive historical knowledge about his industry. So in the documentary it shows us like this beautiful library, like this two story library he has in his studio. And it contains all kinds of things, like artifacts. Not only is it like he takes, he's got a lot of old books.

[Narrator/Reader]

In there, music, movies. He's essentially taking. Using the world as a classroom, I.

[Podcast Host]

Guess is the way to think about this. Use the world as a classroom and then apply like all the ideas you're using to your work. And he actually has a copy of the very first record that ever mentions the word hip hop, the industry that he is partially credited with founding. And he went down and tracked the record.

[Narrator/Reader]

The first time that the word hip.

[Podcast Host]

Hop ever, ever appeared in recorded music was in 1968, almost 20 years before the founding of Def Jam. And what I was, what I was.

[Narrator/Reader]

Interested in about that is in the.

[Podcast Host]

Documentary, so we already go into like you clearly see, he'll constantly ask his artists to go back. Like he's working with Linkin park at the time and he's like, hey, go back and listen to all these records.

[Narrator/Reader]

And it's records that were made like.

[Podcast Host]

30 or 40 years before. And what was interesting is how some people didn't. So he's meeting in 2018 with this rapper called Little Yachty. And he's a young kid, so I'm not like, at the point. I think he's like 22 or something like that when he's. When he's recording this. So when he's doing the documentary. So no shade to him, but he blew up real fast in hip hop and has since disappeared. And it shouldn't make. It shouldn't exactly be surprising that he disappeared because this is what he says in the documentary. I don't know nothing about the history of rap. I was born in 1997. Why do I need to know about.

[Narrator/Reader]

What somebody else did?

[Podcast Host]

Why do I need to go research somebody else? And so this idea, like, it's normal for humans to fail to learn the lessons of history. That's why people that study history, that make it a part of their lives for the rest of their lives, just have a massive advantage. This is a very old idea. Cicero said this over 2,000 years, almost 2,000 years ago.

[Narrator/Reader]

To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.

[Podcast Host]

Little Yachty had remained a child, and his career has suffered as a result. Going back to great ideas that Rick Rubin said, he says all the most interesting things happen when you are making stuff no one else is making.

[Narrator/Reader]

A few more great quotes from this documentary.

[Podcast Host]

This says somebody describing Rick Rubin, which. I love this line.

[Narrator/Reader]

He's living in four different centuries at once.

[Podcast Host]

Another great description of him, kind of this reality distortion field. I don't think that he's backed in reality at all, which is probably one of the reasons he's so successful. And then two more lines from the documentary, which I think is just the perfect mentality to have. My reason. This is Rick talking. My reason to exist is to be of service. And then the last thing. Mainly I'm a researcher. I'm always looking for a better way to do everything. And I never accept whatever the accepted version of something is as, oh, that's how it's supposed to be.

[Narrator/Reader]

It is an endless search. So let's go back to the early days, still his early career.

[Podcast Host]

He hasn't left Def Jam. He hasn't left New York to go to California. Starts like the second part of his career.

[Narrator/Reader]

And so Chuck D, which is the.

[Podcast Host]

Main, I guess, rapper in Public Enemy. And he's like, okay, I got to sign this guy. I got to work with him. And this is really just the value of persistence.

[Narrator/Reader]

Feeling that Chuck D was the next greatest artist, Ruben had to convince Chuck.

[Podcast Host]

D of all that this is Ruben.

[Narrator/Reader]

Describing that he considered himself a grown man with a family and a regular job. I put his phone number on a post it note on my phone, and I would call it every day and just keep bugging him saying, we really have to make a record. It's time to make a record. It took six months until Chuck D said, maybe.

[Podcast Host]

And think about the alternate reality, because Public Enemy becomes one of the most influential hip hop groups of all time. They're hugely influenced to all the artists to come after them. And the idea is like, no, I didn't even. Chuck didn't even think it was possible. He's like, you know, there's no such thing as a career in rap. And then not only that, it's for like, young kids. I'm too. I'm old. I got a family, I got a normal job.

[Narrator/Reader]

And if it wasn't for Rick Rubin's persistence, there's a very real possibility that.

[Podcast Host]

Public Enemy never existed. And again, I think that's another example of, like, him. Him transferring his confidence. The abundance of confidence that he has on other people, like, that's just extremely valuable for. For people to do that. It's almost like an aversion, like an act of service. It's like, I believe in you so much. I'm going to make you believe in you.

[Narrator/Reader]

So at this point, he gets interested.

[Podcast Host]

In saying, hey, I want to also produce a lot of rock records. This is going to cause a split of Def Jam. But before I get there, it goes back to this obsession with simplicity.

[Narrator/Reader]

He says, it doesn't matter who I'm working with.

[Podcast Host]

I apply the same basic formula. Keep it sparse, strip down the sound to something straightforward but powerful.

[Narrator/Reader]

And so this move by Rubin to.

[Podcast Host]

Go more into rock is actually going to cause a rift.

[Narrator/Reader]

And I wrote this didn't take long.

[Podcast Host]

Because you figure their partnership only lasted what, three, four years, if that.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says this shift was an indication of the growing distance between part.

[Podcast Host]

Between the partners of Rubin and Russell Simmons. And so what he's about to do here, by instinct, is something that is mentioned a lot of times by people that admire him. Like he had the money, the fame, and the success of Def Jam, who at the almost the peak of the popularity, says, nope, you're causing me to compromise what I want to make, so I'll just leave it all.

[Narrator/Reader]

He leaves Def Jam.

[Podcast Host]

Russell still runs it.

[Narrator/Reader]

And so they wind up having a meeting.

[Podcast Host]

Rick says he can still remember where they went and having this conversation even many decades later.

[Narrator/Reader]

And he. So he says he asked Russell, do you want to leave? And he said, no.

[Podcast Host]

And I said, okay, fine, I'll leave.

[Narrator/Reader]

Ruben said, if I would have stayed, it would have been completely different.

[Podcast Host]

I don't know if it would have been the same successful thing that it is.

[Narrator/Reader]

The reason I left Def Jam had to do with mine and Russell's vision.

[Podcast Host]

Of our company growing apart.

[Narrator/Reader]

Ruben said that he and Simmons had been stepping on each other's toes a.

[Podcast Host]

Lot and kind of growing apart. Creativity, they weren't communicating.

[Narrator/Reader]

I felt like my vision was being compromised, and I'm sure he felt like his was, too. Reflecting on this time with Def Jam and the label's influence on the hip hop scene, Ruben said, it really was a wave. We just happened to be in a good spot on the wave. The wave was coming.

[Podcast Host]

And that was really interesting because the way he said, he's like, listen, I was just the right person, the right set of skills, the right point in history, but that wave was going to happen with or without me. That's exactly what convinced Paul Allen and Bill Gates to stop focusing on school and going all in on Microsoft. And so this fantastic paragraph that's in the biography of Bill Gates called Hard Drive, but it says Gates and Allen were convinced that the computer industry was about to reach critical mass, and when it exploded, it would usher in a technological revolution of astounding magnitude. They were on the threshold of one of those moments when history held its breath and jumped, as it had done with the development of the car and the airplane. And this is the punchline. This is the most important part.

[Narrator/Reader]

They could either lead the revolution or.

[Podcast Host]

Be swept along by it. So one of the most successful albums that Rick ever produced was the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Blood Sugar, Sex Magic.

[Narrator/Reader]

I just got a couple highlights from.

[Podcast Host]

This chapter that I think are just applicable to all kinds of great work in all kinds of fields. So the first thing is the importance of differentiating your product.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says, they declared that the Red Hot Chili Peppers have never been.

[Podcast Host]

Part of any movement or any collective thing or any existing category.

[Narrator/Reader]

We just tried to create our own categories.

[Podcast Host]

Another line from this, it says, it's not about being. This is Rick talking about what when he was working on this album. It's not about being fancy. It's about serving the song. It's not about being fancy for our purposes. It's about serving the customer. And this is the band describing what it's like working with Rick on this.

[Narrator/Reader]

Album, his participation was incredibly nonchalant. He just comes by and chills out, sometimes horizontally. He's got a pen and paper, and it's somewhere between a nap and a meditation.

[Podcast Host]

So that. That line's kind of funny. It's like some comes by sometimes horizontally. So there's. You'll see this in documentary. I saw this in an ad Samsung did for Jay Z's album, like, a decade ago, where Jay Z invites the producers that worked on his album. It was like Pharrell, Timberland, Rick Rubin. They're all in the studio in New York City and they're playing the album, and Rick just lays down on the couch and kind of closes his eyes and taps his feet. So that's something he's been doing for a long time.

[Narrator/Reader]

They said he has an incredible head for arrangements.

[Podcast Host]

And again, part of that, at this point, he's 20 years into his career now, maybe 15 years into his career. How much music has he listened to? How much music has he studied?

[Narrator/Reader]

He.

[Podcast Host]

Again, he has this encyclopedic knowledge, historical knowledge of his industry. And I think it's really important for two reasons. One, no one can. Once you establish a space of knowledge, no one can take it from you. And two, it's going to constantly inform that historical knowledge of studying the great work that came before you is going to constantly inform all the work that you do for the rest of your career. And then this is Rick Rubin describing.

[Narrator/Reader]

Why he refuses to chase fads or trends.

[Podcast Host]

This was fantastic.

[Narrator/Reader]

He says the newest sounds have a tendency to sound old when the next.

[Podcast Host]

New sound comes along.

[Narrator/Reader]

But a grand piano sounded great 50.

[Podcast Host]

Years ago and will sound great 50 years from now. I try to make records that have a timeless quality. And so one of the things that he did, that he helped Red Hot Chili Peppers was. Was their. Their bassist is probably the most famous bassist in the world, this guy named Flea. But what Rick is about to say here is I really think it goes back to. He was talking about at the beginning of the book.

[Narrator/Reader]

The role he plays is like, listen.

[Podcast Host]

Every band player, every person on the team, you know, is focused on their role. I'm the only one that's not concerned about your role, but how your role affects the whole.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says. Ruben described the evolution that occurred up until that time. Flea's bass playing was a particular style. He was famous for it. He was considered one of the best bass players in the world because of his style. But when we started working together, that bass playing, that made him one of the Best didn't necessarily serve the songs in the best way.

[Podcast Host]

This reminded me of when I read that gigantic, like 600 page biography of Michael Jordan. And Michael was a fantastic individual basketball player.

[Narrator/Reader]

But he couldn't get past the Detroit.

[Podcast Host]

Pistons in the playoffs and he failed year after year.

[Narrator/Reader]

It wasn't until he learned how to be the best teammate, play as a.

[Podcast Host]

Team, not just an individual person, that they actually got, were able to get to the next level. That same process is very similar to what Rick is describing us here. He's like, listen, he's well known. At that time, they thought Michael Jordan was the best basketball player in the, in the league. But he hadn't win a championship because the best players don't win, the best teams do.

[Narrator/Reader]

But when we started working together, that bass player, that bass playing that made him one of the best didn't necessarily serve the songs in the best way. It was more about the bass being.

[Podcast Host]

Great, it was more about Jordan being great.

[Narrator/Reader]

And the song is more important than the bass and the team is more.

[Podcast Host]

Important than the player. So that's me obviously trying to tie that all together.

[Narrator/Reader]

Starting with that record. Flea changed the way he played.

[Podcast Host]

And so he says, this is what Flea said about that. He goes, I consciously avoided anything busy or fancy.

[Narrator/Reader]

I avoided saying, hey, I'm Flea the bitchin bass player. And then he said, he goes, I tried to get small enough to get.

[Podcast Host]

Inside the song as opposed to stepping out.

[Narrator/Reader]

The focus is not on me.

[Podcast Host]

So one thing I really admire about studying Rick Rubin was that he doesn't rest on his laurels. He's always looking for the next challenge, right? You could just say, hey, I'm going to produce the same rap records over and over again. I already had some hit rock and metal albums. Let me just do that. He's like, no, no, I need another challenge. I need to keep. And challenge is how you keep growing and adding more skills, right? So in 1994, he's like, I'm going to work with Johnny Cash. And the way he decided to do this is fascinating.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says, In 1994, Rick Rubin.

[Podcast Host]

Was focused on a great challenge.

[Narrator/Reader]

Resurrecting the career of country music legend Johnny Cash with. With Rubin's trademark production by reduction approach, the albums would bring the legendary Johnny Cash his first platinum success in years and showcased a more raw side to him.

[Podcast Host]

Rubin explained how he came to work with Johnny.

[Narrator/Reader]

He says, it seemed like it would be a fun challenge to work with an established artist, but I wasn't interested in working with a legend at the.

[Podcast Host]

Top of their game.

[Narrator/Reader]

I'd been thinking about who was really great, but not currently making really great records, what great artists are not in.

[Podcast Host]

A great place right now. So Johnny and Rick meet, and they. And Rick tells Johnny his blueprint.

[Narrator/Reader]

Reuben had a real simple plan. Wherever the magic is, we will follow it.

[Podcast Host]

And so this is the first of their hit albums together. It says it was recorded in Rick Rubin's living room.

[Narrator/Reader]

Cash recalled. There was no echo, no slap back, no overdubbing, no mixing.

[Podcast Host]

It just goes back to the reduction by production, by reduction. Right?

[Narrator/Reader]

No overdubbing, no mixing.

[Podcast Host]

Just me playing my guitar and singing. I didn't even use a pick. Every guitar note on the album came from my thumb. And this is just. This is just great. I just love that this happened.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says we had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Or.

[Podcast Host]

Excuse me.

[Narrator/Reader]

Johnny Cash had nothing to lose and.

[Podcast Host]

Everything to gain in wearing his heart on his sleeve.

[Narrator/Reader]

I know I'm 62 years old and I've been around twice, and now it looks like I might have a third shot at a new audience.

[Podcast Host]

He found Rick Rubin helped him find that new audience. So MTV winds up putting Johnny Cash's.

[Narrator/Reader]

Video for the first song, and it becomes really popular to an age group that probably didn't even know who Johnny.

[Podcast Host]

Cash existed or much less all the hits that he had, you know, 20, 30, 40 years earlier.

[Narrator/Reader]

And the album won a Grammy.

[Podcast Host]

And then this is the crazy part, what I mentioned earlier, how Rick can just imbibe like he can.

[Narrator/Reader]

He could take the confidence that he has.

[Podcast Host]

And again, I think it's like you can clearly transfer your emotions, both good and bad, to the people around you, right? But this idea where you have a legend, somebody that had already got to the top of their profession and still having doubts about their ability.

[Narrator/Reader]

Rick made me have faith in myself again. He made me believe in myself and.

[Podcast Host]

My music, which I thought was gone forever. He's working with a different band. I just want to pull out one sentence here because I thought it was fantastic. And he's describing. This guy named Williams, is describing what.

[Narrator/Reader]

It was like working with Rick. Williams described being put through a recording regimen wherein Rick Rubin made us record every track about 50 times each to obtain the good dynamics.

[Podcast Host]

That is a main theme that we should take away from Rick Rubin. Less is more, but to get there, you have to do more. He uses that same idea over and over again. I moved ahead to another project. This guy Donovan that's in this band.

[Narrator/Reader]

Says what you hear is 14 songs, but there's 86 songs that you haven't heard. Once the project began, I started writing daily. I wrote 100 songs over a period.

[Podcast Host]

Of a year and a half. So again, the public praises people for what they practice in private. They are, they are praising these 14 songs. They didn't see the 86 others that I had to do and never use just to get to the right 14. And then there's just some great stories in the book. Like he decides, hey, I'm going to get together Tom Petty.

[Narrator/Reader]

So there's a fantastic picture in the.

[Podcast Host]

Studio of Tom Petty, Rick Rubin and Johnny Cash. And so this is the album. I think that song is on Hurt. They play it on the Lex Freeman podcast. I thought was fantastic just to watch Rick listen to. It was, was really interesting to me.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it sounded very different.

[Podcast Host]

And you know, Johnny's like, Johnny's known as a cat, as a country, as like a country like music legend. And yet because his sound had evolved, he wasn't getting the, like the attention or the support of his industry. And so this just made me laugh out loud.

[Narrator/Reader]

So it says the music got major.

[Podcast Host]

Airplay on college radio and alternative rock.

[Narrator/Reader]

Stations upon its release, but no love from traditional country radio. But the rest of America loved the album. Ironically, the album won a Grammy Award for Best Country Album celebrating the achievement in the Fuck the System fashion. Rick Rubin ran a full page ad in Billboard featuring the classic photo of Johnny Cash, middle finger aimed at the camera with a caption that read American Recordings. And Johnny Cash would like to acknowledge the Nashville music establishment and country radio for your support.

[Podcast Host]

And so Rick Rubin talks about the importance of selecting the people that you work with. You have to make sure you like them, you have to make sure you admire them. There's no point in working with somebody that you don't like, admire trust. And as a result, it's not just.

[Narrator/Reader]

This is not oh, this is business.

[Podcast Host]

Like, that's no, it's not true.

[Narrator/Reader]

This is extremely personal.

[Podcast Host]

What we're doing is extremely personal. And so there's a, there's this band called System of a Down. And one of the artists in System of a Down talks about like, what was it? What's it like working with Rick Rubin? He gives you his whole self.

[Narrator/Reader]

And so it says production with Rick.

[Podcast Host]

Doesn'T mean you're going to sit in the studio.

[Narrator/Reader]

It might mean you go to a record store or you go to a beach or you go for a drive. You bond as people first and then you put these songs and Rick's like the song doctor if you play something for him, it's like going in for a checkup. He's like, here, take a couple of these vitamins and see how you feel. And the songs always feel better after his suggestions.

[Podcast Host]

And so you do.

[Narrator/Reader]

He's just so easy to be around.

[Podcast Host]

That's why people keep going back to him. And so one of the groups that kept coming back to Rick Rubin were the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

[Narrator/Reader]

And so they're building, they're doing the.

[Podcast Host]

Album Californication at this point in the book.

[Narrator/Reader]

And one of the guitarists had left.

[Podcast Host]

The group and then he came back, but he wasn't playing as much. So this is going to remind me.

[Narrator/Reader]

A few weeks ago, I think it.

[Podcast Host]

Was what maybe episode 240 biography of.

[Narrator/Reader]

Mozart that he did. There's a line, there's something that happens.

[Podcast Host]

In that book that I don't think I'll ever forget. And it's the importance of like not.

[Narrator/Reader]

Really trying to find the most efficient way.

[Podcast Host]

Like sometimes just exposing yourself to hours after hours of hard work, like that's.

[Narrator/Reader]

Going to build up skill sets that.

[Podcast Host]

Other people that have not gone through all that time lack. And so he's coming back. I don't know how to pronounce his name, so I'm gonna call him F.

[Narrator/Reader]

F felt somewhat rusty. I hadn't spent too much time playing.

[Podcast Host]

Guitar over the last few years. So my hands were weak.

[Narrator/Reader]

They didn't really get extremely strong until we almost finished recording. So that had an effect on my.

[Podcast Host]

Style of guitar playing.

[Narrator/Reader]

During the recording, I was playing guitar constantly. I would go home and play for five hours after a ten hour recording session.

[Podcast Host]

But the main takeaway there was the.

[Narrator/Reader]

Fact that his music, what he's saying is like, the music got better the stronger my hands got.

[Podcast Host]

The only way to get your hands strong is to actually put in the hours, right? And so that's exactly what happened to Mozart. There's this some kind of instrument called like the viola or something like that.

[Narrator/Reader]

And if I remember correctly, it needs like extreme right hand strength.

[Podcast Host]

And so a lot of Mozart's competitors that practice less than Mozart couldn't actually make the instrument perform to its best of its ability because they lack the hand strength, because they didn't practice. Mozart practiced. Mozart had the hand strength. Mozart then applies that talent that the people that don't practice lack and he's able to get magic out of an instrument that his competitors did not.

[Narrator/Reader]

And then in just a few sentences.

[Podcast Host]

I really feel we get like this, this kind of blueprint that Rick Rubin like the blueprint of how Rick Rubin works and that we can then apply to so many other things. And there's four things I picked out how this is how Rick Rubin works. Number one, he works on one thing at a time. Number two, he gives it his undivided attention. Number three, he only works with a players. His job is not to motivate you. A players motivate themselves. And number three, he tries to get his thinking as clear as possible.

[Narrator/Reader]

We found that for us, we need a producer to be devoted to us.

[Podcast Host]

For a few months.

[Narrator/Reader]

That's what Rick does. We've got his undivided attention. He doesn't do any disciplining. We do it ourselves. I love making music and I love writing music.

[Podcast Host]

And nobody needs to push me to do that.

[Narrator/Reader]

He's not the kind of person that gets distracted or comes to the rehearsal.

[Podcast Host]

Studio with something else on his mind.

[Narrator/Reader]

Or carrying his personal life into the studio. He is very focused. He's got a clear head about everything going on.

[Podcast Host]

So again, work on one thing at a time. Undivided attention only. Work with a players and get your thinking as clear as possible. One of my favorite and funniest lines it comes from David Ogilvy talks about, hey, all great companies, all great institutions. They're run by a single formidable individual. And he has a better grasp of language than I do. But he says, search all the parks in your city. You'll find no statues of committees. Johnny Cash is talking about why his some of the last albums he ever did were so great.

[Narrator/Reader]

The common theme I see in these.

[Podcast Host]

Albums is they were not made by committee. They were made by Rick Rubin and I, the guitarist from the Red Hot Chili Peppers, that guy F I just told you about.

[Narrator/Reader]

Together F and Rick Rubin explored another.

[Podcast Host]

Genre of music to find inspiration.

[Narrator/Reader]

Me and Rick would work together every day.

[Podcast Host]

And he's got Me and Rick would get together every day, Excuse me.

[Narrator/Reader]

And he's got these CDs of hits from the 60s.

[Podcast Host]

So right now, at this point in the book where we are in time, they are using ideas from work done 40 years before. They are meeting. That's another one of Rick's standard mos. He's constantly saying, hey, I know we're working in 1995. I know we're working in 2005. Go check out what was done in the 50s. Go check out what these guys were doing in the 70s. Go check out this other thing. And so we're going to see Rick Rubin use two parts of his Philosophy here again, persistence and then production by reduction. And so at this point, he's going to do the exact same thing. He's like, hey, who else is. Was really good at one point, is really capable of doing great work, but hasn't yet. Like, hasn't shown that they can still do great work. So he goes and tries to work with Neil diamond and he just does it relentlessly.

[Narrator/Reader]

Reuben was eager to work with diamond.

[Podcast Host]

And unabashedly described his pursuit of the artist as stalking.

[Narrator/Reader]

At first, diamond found Reuben's enthusiasm a little scary. I didn't know what to make of it.

[Podcast Host]

So eventually his persistence pays off. They start working together.

[Narrator/Reader]

And it says once they began working together, Ruben insisted Diamond track all of the album songs playing acoustic guitar while he sang.

[Podcast Host]

That's exactly what he said. He's like, listen, a person with just strumming guitar and singing sounded good 50 years ago. Just like a piano sounded good 50 years ago. And if it sounds good 50 years ago, it'll sound. If it survived that long, that idea, that format survived that long, it is more likely to survive 50 years into the future. So he's like, we're gonna. All the other crap that your producers had you do with the bells and whistles, we're getting rid of all that stuff. It's not necessary. And so it says the singer hadn't recorded like that since the 1960s and.

[Narrator/Reader]

He was reluctant to try it.

[Podcast Host]

Diamond would later concede that Rick was right.

[Narrator/Reader]

Rubin wanted to bring back the Neil diamond who made those old records great.

[Podcast Host]

With a stripped down sound.

[Narrator/Reader]

And then the way. The way Neil diamond describes Rick, I'm only including this because it made me laugh. Says despite his appearance, which can be really intimidating, Rick is a big, lovable.

[Podcast Host]

Bear of a man.

[Narrator/Reader]

The only problem I had was with his habit of hugging. At first I was taken aback. After a while, I got to like it. He's like Father Earth taking you into his bosom. I don't know why that made me laugh.

[Podcast Host]

That's funny. And then towards the end of the book, I just realized as I'm reading this, I was like, oh, he's developed.

[Narrator/Reader]

A very personal business philosophy. Ruben wanted freedom and not to have to punch a clock or work in a traditional corporate way. Ruben has always kept a full vision of a project in mind as part of his work. He thought about the artwork, the marketing, videos, brand building, and so on. The panicked music industry may be focused on how to sell music, but Rick Rubin has always been focused on making great music. First, he is driven by what is really great. He's very hard to please. Having someone around you like that makes you want to bring something in that's.

[Podcast Host]

Fantastic and not just mediocre. And the effect of this very personal business philosophy is summarized here.

[Narrator/Reader]

Rubin attributes his success to very simple core principles. Try to understand culture as well as music, surround yourself with people interested in music for the right reasons, and be true to the things that you love. His great love and fandom for music has led to honesty and purity in his work. His impact has been felt by a generation of music fans who would credit Rubin with producing the soundtrack to their lifetime.

[Podcast Host]

And that is where I'll leave it.

[Narrator/Reader]

I absolutely love this book.

[Podcast Host]

I loved Going Deep on Rick Rubin, the Mind and the Philosophy of Rick Rubin this week.

[Narrator/Reader]

I'll leave a link down below if.

[Podcast Host]

You want to buy the book. It supports podcasts at the same time. That is 255 books down, 1,000 to go and I'll talk to you again soon.