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- [01:05]
Daniel
Hey everyone, welcome back to Founder story.
- [01:07]
Kyle Matthews
Today we have Kyle Matthews.
- [01:09]
Daniel
And Kyle, you are the founder and CEO of Matthews Real Estate Investment Services, the largest privately held commercial real estate brokerage in the U.S. 25 offices, a thousand plus agents and employees, and over 66 billion in sales volume since 2015. I know you're going to give us some incredible tips and strategies of the success you've had, the learnings, but we got to go back in time because you have a very interesting past around a family of professional athletes, but yet you took a different approach. You took a different path. So let's go back to the time when you were in college. You were playing the possibility of you maybe being a professional before you even thought about real estate. How did this transition happen?
- [01:59]
Kyle Matthews
Yeah, no, I first of all, I appreciate you having me on, Daniel, and I love how you say I took a different path. It almost makes it sound like it was a, a strategic choice of mine. Unfortunately, that wasn't how it, it all played out. I was playing football at USC about, you know, 20 years ago when we were winning a lot of games, won national champions championships. When I was there, we had a great coach in Pete Carroll and some amazing teammates and players that went on to the NFL. Unfortunately, I wasn't, I wasn't one of those players. I didn't have that, you know, there's levels to every game and there's certainly levels to football. And I didn't have that last level. And so, but it's not something, you know, you really realize early on. It was at the very end of my four years at school when, you know, coach sat me down heading my senior year and said, hey, we're going to go with someone younger. It's like kind of hits you just like a punch to the gut. And so there's, there's somewhat a morning of the athletic side, but really like, well, what am I going to do now? You know, because pretty much everyone in my family before me and subsequently after me had played in the NFL and, and so I just, you know, erroneously made the assumption that that would happen for me and it just, it just didn't. And so I, I, for a longer story, for a different day, I, I knew I wanted to be in real estate. I like the idea of tangible assets, I like the idea of kind of a, a finance based industry. But I, because of the football focus, I didn't really have the technical real estate skills that most people who want to go into real estate have. Coming out of college, I didn't go to real estate finance classes. I, I didn't necessarily know how to, how to model or underwrite properties, but I wanted to be in the business. And so very quickly I only had a couple months to kind of, you know, accept the loss and take the L on the, on the football side before I said, look, I gotta get a job, right? And, and I want to be in real estate. But I wasn't going to get hired for an analyst position or development associate position, a typical entry level opportunity. And so really the only thing available to me, and it ended up being the biggest blessing professionally of my life, was brokerage. Real estate brokerage, a service based industry where you eventually, you know, if you're good enough and you can communicate your value proposition to an owner, you're hired to provide services for owners. When different services in the business, whether they're buying or selling properties, leasing properties, they need debt for properties, and there's a whole host of other services. But ultimately that's what led me into real estate, was me not achieving the success I was hoping for.
- [04:19]
Daniel
From a, from a football perspective, you've scaled exponentially. I mean these numbers are incredible. We were talking earlier, we've had people like Ryan Sirhan on here before, but the numbers that you have are just exponential in this time frame. And I think a lot of people look at it and say, wow, I want to achieve that one day. And you've been doing this, or at least you started this company since 2015, which I'm sure you also had prior experiences. But what were some of the things that in the, you know, know, when you scaled from let's say 0 to 10 million in sales 10 to 100 million, 100 million to a billion. What were some of these transitions or.
- [05:01]
Kyle Matthews
Some lessons that you learned?
- [05:02]
Yeah, so you know what, what happened was I got into brokerage and I was a broker doing the deals, you know, on behalf of clients for about 10 years. And in 2015 I was presented an opportunity because of the company I was at, I had achieved success there. I think I was their top producer globally. And they were about to go public and so they were, they were changing some of the internal rules around prospecting and commission sharing and all that. And again, we don't need to get in the weeds there. But it didn't make sense for me to stay. And at that time in, in, in brokerage you oftentimes you evolve into what's called teams. Right. They're not formally branded but they're teams where I was the senior agent that there were a couple people underneath me, younger agents, you know, that were, I was mentoring, but they were also involved in my deals, I was involved in theirs. And I had a couple employees, an analyst, some marketing people. And I was like, you know, I feel like I'm basically running my own little boutique here. I might as well just start my own thing. And that, that was ultimately how Matthew started. It wasn't this big plan of mine, it wasn't this, you know, well thought out vision or goal I had since I got into the business. It just, it just kind of happened and you know, kind of silly me, I thought it would just stay small and then it scaled very quickly. And to answer your question, it's also worth noting it was self funded. So I have no, no outside investors, no no LPs, no debt, like just funded it myself and you know, and started with 10 people, it became 20, 20 became 40, 40 became 80. And just every year we seem to be growing exponentially. Lessons, you know, lessons I've learned along the way, especially as a founder of a self funded company, is it is, you know, ignorance is bliss. The amount of work that goes into, especially the first couple years is I, I can't even prepare people for, you know, it's basically every waking second of every day I would get in the office typically at 5:45 in the morning. I'd stay till about 8:30 at night. Monday through Friday, Saturdays, I'd usually work six, seven hours. On Saturdays and Sundays I typically go in and it's, it's not just a job, it's a lifestyle. And I don't mean that in, in, in, you know, in terms of like it's this incredible lifestyle. It's a grind. And that was my experience. And because I attached my last name to the business, I, I, it was probably this best and worst thing I ever, I ever did. You know, it was, it was the best thing that it created a lot of good, you know, brand synergy with who I was as a person. But the downside is if the business fails, then that failure is attached to my last name. And my father gave me a great last name, and I wasn't going to mess it up, and I certainly wasn't going to assign failure to it. So it just kind of created this manic obsession, this crazy work ethic that, you know, just if, if, if any other lesson from starting a company, it's not a job, it's not something you can turn off. It is basically every second of every day until you, you have the resources to hire professional management. You have the resources to bring on great teammates to help you operate the company, which is, you know, luckily, where we are today.
- [08:03]
You bring up something that we've heard.
- [08:04]
Daniel
Before with other incredibly successful, successful people like yourself that they had to be forced out to start the business. I find this common, like, we work somewhere, it's pretty comfortable, but, you know, we get fired, the business goes under, things change, whatever the reason is, and then we're, you know, forced out to then start something on your own. Going back to the feeling of when you transition because, you know, obviously you transition from college, thinking something, and then you had to do something else. You know, you get this brokerage job, you're doing well, senior agent, and then all of a sudden everything changes and now you got to go do something on your own. Were there fears, hesitations?
- [08:45]
Kyle Matthews
What were some of those emotions?
- [08:47]
Daniel
Thinking, okay, I'm going to start something on my own? Or were you in a place where you're like, you know what? I'm going to crush it. I have no fears. I have no hesitation.
- [08:56]
Kyle Matthews
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I, I'm happy to hear that others have had a similar start to their career where they're almost forced into it. You know, I definitely am not a victim and wasn't in that moment, I could have stayed at the company I was at as a big publicly traded brokerage company. You know, you're doing north of $10 million a year in fee. It's a very comfortable life. And, and, and most people, it's like, why would you leave it? It's like, you don't unless something drastic changes. And that's what happened with the going public again, just, just the, the, the, the, the relationship between my business and the company, you know, changed significantly. And, and from, from me and my teammate standpoint, it changed for the worse. And so while it wasn't like I had to leave, I meant from an economics perspective, it, it just didn't make sense to stay. And so I surveyed the landscape, I looked at other companies. I was like, they're all the same. They all have this kind of structured, kind of fiefdom, fee sharing thing. And I said, well, then I'll just go do my own thing. And the answer to your question, from an emotion standpoint, yeah, there, there was fear. I mean, fear is, has always been probably the biggest driver for me. Less so as you get older, but certainly when you're younger, it's kind of like, you know, oh, what, what if, what if something bad happens? What if I fail? What if it, it flops? Like, you know, so much of the fear is driven by what will people think of me. And again, hopefully, and I've noticed this within myself, as you get older, you just, you just care less. Right? It's like the Churchill statement. In your 20s, you worry about what everyone's thinking about you. In your 40s, you stop caring about, everyone's thinking about you. And then they say in your 60s, you realize they were never thinking about you. Well, my fear was driven, like, well, if I start this and I fail, oh my gosh, what are people going to think? And getting back to the last name, I don't want to be seen as a failure on the other side. I think probably the biggest thing I had going for me, Daniel, just candidly, is ignorance is bliss. I just, I was very naive to how hard it would be. I was very naive because I said, well, you know, I'm in brokerage, I'm doing great. I mean, clearly I figured out I'm 32 years old, I have all this money, let's go do it. And it's just there's so much more to operating a business versus just like providing a service. And, you know, people always ask, you know, knowing what you know, knowing what you know now, would you do anything differently? And the cliche answer, which there's truth in it, is like, well, no, I wouldn't do anything differently because look at where I ended up. But it, it was certainly much harder, much more complicated. And, and really the word we use around here is sacrifice. There was so much more sacrifice in those first couple years than I ever could have fathomed. And I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't have it any other way. It's a blessing to be where I am today. Could I do it all over again knowing what I know now? I don't know, man. I don't know. Because like, again, ignorance is bliss. If you don't know what you're getting into, when it hits you in the face, you're just like, well, I'm already committed. Let's get to work.
- [11:40]
Daniel
That is so true. It's better to not know the future. It's really better to not know the future in the sense of that because I'm with you. If I knew everything that was going to happen, I would have ran from entrepreneurship. I would have just kept a corporate job. I like the ignorance is bliss. I want to go back to what you're talking around. You know, the grind of working so many hours. There's always this attraction to, at least on social media, there's this attraction, like, I want to be a business owner because I want freedom. And I always think, like, when I had a corporate job, I had 160 hours, a vacation a year, and when I left, I was able to leave and not think about any. I almost feel like when I had a corporate job, I had more freedom because I wasn't stuck. Like you're saying, like, like in the beginning at least, you know, when you, when you don't have like a lot of hands, other people that are working and you can do the business, but when you're really grinding, you're like, really, you're stuck in it. You got to do it. How do you, how do you feel about this? Where I just see a lot on social media around. Everyone wants to be an entrepreneur because of the word, you know, the freedom and being able to work when they want, wherever they want.
- [12:49]
Kyle Matthews
You know, you bring up such a great point. Freedom. And so, you know, I'm not trying to oversimplify life, but for the sake of our 20 minute interview today, let's say that there's a mental freedom and a financial freedom. And what they're talking about is like, hey, I want financial freedom. And that's. It's a blessing. It's a blessing to be financially, financially independent. It's a blessing to not have to worry about paying your bills. I think the number one cause of divorce in America, I could be wrong, is like financial strife. And so, yeah, sure, if financial freedom is a blessing and if it's creating tremendous anxiety and stress and worry and fear in your life, you, you know, in my humble opinion, you should. You should work towards trying to put that to bed. But what I wasn't aware of, and this is kind of the point I think you're making, which I couldn't agree more with, is, is the mental freedom you lose. And I wasn't aware of that. So it's like, hey, I want to be a founder. To your point, social media, I want freedom. I want freedom. And financial freedom is a blessing. But what you give up for financial freedom, certainly for a period of years, let's call it, for me, you know, it's, we're roughly a decade in, is the mental freedom from your work. And I can't necessarily represent that. I've, I've lived another life and I've been in a. What I'll call a traditional job. But you're absolutely right. Like when you're, when you're an employee or when, in my case, when you're an agent, you kind of have mental freedom where you're like, you, you know, you're, you're only beholden to yourself. You're only responsible to yourself and, or the clients you, you provide a service for. But as long as you're making more than you're spending and you feel good about your savings, that's it. Like you kind of, you know, whether it goes up or goes down, the only person affects is you. And there's, there's a, there's a freedom in that. When you start a company and whether you have five employees or, you know, in my case, like, let's call it a thousand people, it's not about you. It's very much not about you. And that creates. While if, you know, if business is good, it creates financial freedom. And that's great. Like I touched on earlier, you don't have mental freedom and you're never disconnected from work. And when I have four young children between the ages, you know, 14, 11, 7 and 3. And so that, I would say is the biggest focus I've had over the last couple years is, especially as they've grown up and they're becoming young men and women. It's, it's to be mentally free of my work when I'm home. And respectfully, that's something I've only been able to accomplish as the revenue and the net income of the company has really scaled to hire professional management or promote within Matthews, to actually help operate and run the company so that I can be present with my family and not have to be constantly tending to the business. But the first Daniel, first five, six, seven years, that was not how it was. And it was like I said it was, it was, I definitely wasn't aware I signed up for that. And the financial freedoms, always a blessing. But the mental, the loss of mental freedom from your work is, is a big, big challenge. And it's something that I wish every founder knew what they were signing up for when, when they, when they start a business. I didn't know. And I think to your point, most people don't.
- [15:46]
A lot of the regrets that we've.
- [15:47]
Daniel
Heard from other founders who have been doing it for many years is in the beginning, the phase of not being able to really be there for their families, spouses, like, all the issues that have come along with that because they've had to put all of their energy into the business. And I really, I, like, I've never heard this before, but I really, really like how you said the mental freedom because of that, that piece of not being mentally free. You can't do everything you want to do. And you have to sometimes choose between, you know, you may be your family or you have to take a work trip or, you know, whatever that is. I, I, It'd be great to understand your development as a person, going from those early stages or the first five to seven years to now, you know, transitioning to the CEO of all of these people. And how have you personally changed along as it's progressed further to closer to now?
- [16:47]
Kyle Matthews
Yeah, I would say the biggest development in me as a person and a CEO, and those are, those are so intertwined. It's the same thing. Like, you know, I'm not a different person at home than I am here in terms of, like, kind of the foundational values and characteristics is, I would say when I was, you know, I'm 42 now, so when I was 32 and I started Matthews, I had such conviction and certainty about almost everything in life, whether it was parenting or business. And there comes so much inherent judgment in that. I was so judgmental. Like, this is how it's done, and this is the way, and this is the right way, and this is wrong, and these people wrong, and I'm right. And look at my, look at my track record and look at my results, and that's why, that's why you should follow me. And there's pluses and minuses. So as I've gotten older, I've become less judgmental and less. Because I'm less certain. I'm like, well, I feel very strongly and my experience taught me this, but maybe there is a different way. Maybe there is a I won't say a better way, but another way that it's not necessarily everything in life is a one size fits all, whether that's personal or professional, the value of being certain. And again not necessarily judgmental, but the judge the judgment part comes with the certainty that you're right at 32 years old is that you have tremendous conviction and if people actually buy into what you're teaching, coaching or leading them towards, you could be very, very effective. Right? And and you know, I say this as humbly as possible. I'd like to think for for a new CEO in 2015, roughly 10 years ago, 32 years old, I was very effective as evidenced by the, you know, by the results. And but I was certain that I was right and there was one way and it was the way I was doing it. As I've as you, you're just as as you're on this earth longer, whether it's as a business person, as a parent, anything, a teacher, a student, you just start to see like oh like that person also found success and they do it differently. Oh this person did it the way I did it. But they didn't make and you start.
- [18:41]
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- [22:28]
From a parenting you're like, oh okay, now I know why my parents did this or now I know why I shouldn't do that. You just you start to become exposed to more more strategies, more paths to success, more ideas. And the biggest to answer your question, the biggest change in me is I'm much more willing to consider a different path now. I still have very strong opinions and the guys and gals here would say, well you know that's funny Kyle says that because he's still very opinion, very very strong opinions. But I would say I probably I Would say if I can be accurate in my own self assessment, which is very hard to do at times, is I'm much more open to hearing a different idea again, I'll still make the decision than I was maybe 10 years ago. I was like, nope, this is the way and I'm right and this is what we're going to do. Well, I, you know, only because I was lucky enough to be bored in my family. I've met so many of these athletes and so I'll, I gotta pick the one I never got to meet. And I, I was and still I'm the biggest fan of this person and, and it's a, it's a shame I'll never get a chance to meet him. Kobe Bryant. There's so many amazing lessons to be learned by watching his life and his career, but so much of what, who I am as a person, let alone how I operate this company, is really a mindset mentality, you know, foundation mindset mentality. In fact, I have a podcast, the Matthews Mentality, where I sit down with high achievers across all industries. And yeah, I have them tell my, tell their story arc and where are you from and how'd you get in the business? But really I say what, what are your motivations? What drive you? What is your why? And how has that changed? Because I find that fascinating about myself, how my motivation and my why has evolved over the years and, and really a lot of my perspective and my curiosity about mentalities, mindsets, and really the drive, like what, what drives people to be great, you know, that, that 1%. And why does the other 99% have it to that degree? I, I, I don't know the answer to the question, but I'm certainly exploring it is, is because of Kobe Bryant. And I spent a lot of my time growing up in Los Angeles. I had the privilege of being a fan of the Lakers, still am. And so he brought a lot of joy to my life in terms of winning championships, like, you know, but I just, I, I, I am fascinated and I, I find who he was so remarkable from a mental toughness. And, and that is one of the most attractive qualities I find in people, whether it's in my wife, what I hope, my kids, you know, that we're working on that. But with my teammates, here is I, I love, I love skills, I love intelligence, I love emotional intelligence. But more than anything, I love mental toughness because it's my humble opinion that mental toughness in yourself and or your teammates will see you through almost anything professionally life's going to throw at you and personally, too. But I'm, you know, I'm going to talk professional here. Whether it's a recession, whether it's a, you know, a bad quarter, whether it's a bad product or something's not working, if you're mentally tough, you're going to find a way to push through it and keep working and not give up. Most people in real estate who fail, they don't fail because they don't have the acuity. They're not smart enough. They're not even emotionally. That's not it. It's just because they're not mentally tough enough. And when it gets hard over a long enough period of time, they give up. And the reason I'd want to meet Kobe Bryant, to your question, and spend time with them is just like I found I'm most inspired when I'm the least motivated person in the room. And, you know, that's hard to do. I'm very motivated. I'm very driven. I think my reputation within my industry, you know, kind of perceives me in terms of my, my work ethic. And I, you know, the culture of the company is a shadow of the CEO. Like, the work ethic of Matthews is, is. Is hardcore. Right. And. But it, it's really, you know, a lot of it being inspired by Kobe Bryant and the way he approached his career, you know, that, that would be it. Kobe for sure on the athlete side. And again, part of it is I've had the opportunity to hang out with a lot of the best football players and, and I love them all. But, yeah, it would be Kobe for me from a professional standpoint. It's such a cliche answer. And, you know, I have to provide a disclaimer. This is not meant in a political sense. You know, so it's Elon Musk, I think. What the guy. Just from a professional standpoint, what he's been able to achieve, you know, obviously the PayPal thing was great, and he had incredible teammates there, and, you know, so many of them. Reid Hoffman or Peter Thiel or, you know, David Sachs. But how in the world does a guy build a car company from scratch? He builds a rocket, you know, SpaceX from scratch. Like, it's insane. Like, how does he. How does he do it? You know, how does he. How does he find the time? You know, does he sleep? But. But really, is he just naturally gifted? Has. I'd love to hear how he's evolved as a leader in the time and, you know, maybe what perspective or what he'd do differently. But, you know, again, putting. Putting what he's working on aside right now, I just. It's fascinating, and I'd love to just spend time with the guy and. Because I got one job, you know, here, and it's a company, okay. There's a thousand people. It's big. And. And. But, like, man, it takes so much. And. And every. Every night I'm crawling to bed, Right? That and the four kids. Like it exhaust you. But how in the world does he. He does it. You know, he. The companies are bigger, certainly more public. I mean, he has a gas tank. He has a resolve. Getting back to mental toughness. That guy, at least right now, is showing he's mentally tougher than I ever could be. I don't even know how he's dealing with what he's dealing right now, but it would definitely be Elon.
- [27:55]
Daniel
Thank you for sharing that. I. I really love the both.
- [27:59]
Kyle Matthews
Both answers.
- [28:00]
Daniel
I could totally relate to those things. We got to spend a day with Gary V. And from an energy perspective.
- [28:08]
Kyle Matthews
That guy has more energy than anyone.
- [28:09]
Daniel
I've ever experienced in my life. I don't even know how he does it, man. That guy goes 247 at 100 miles a second. And I was really, really amazed at all the things I learned that day. I just could not believe how much energy I was tired.
- [28:26]
Kyle Matthews
Some people are just built different, and those guys are built different. And getting back to, you know, kind of how I've changed over the years, like when I was, you know, 10, 15 years ago, I don't want to say a hater, but I'm like, well, you know, I could do that or I could do this. And now I'm just like, no, that guy, he's just a savage. Or that gal, like, she's just. She's just. She, you know, she's smarter than me. She better me. As you get older and I think part of it professionally get comfortable with what you've accomplished, it's so much easier to give people their flowers and say, no, they're.
- [28:51]
That.
- [28:52]
That person is just like that. I look up to that person. And there's. Every day, I look up to more and more people because as I gain perspective in life, as a. As a CEO, as a father, as a husband, and as a friend, I just realize how much harder it is and how much more complicated everything in life is than maybe I thought, you know, when I was 22, coming out of college and had it all figured out. And so, you know, again, looking at what Kobe was able to accomplish or Elon. And there really are a lot of examples, but those two stand out as it relates to your question. It's such a, it's incredible and it's a privilege to, to, to have been able to learn from both of them even, even if it's, you know, from afar. From arm's link, I haven't had the opportunity to meet either of them. But yeah, just both of those people I look up to tremendously.
- [29:36]
Daniel
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, by the way. This has been really great. We could probably talk for another hour. I have tons more questions. So you got to come back and then we can dive into whatever, whatever's been changing. I mean, the real estate industry, I am very fascinated with it. We got, we have to do a whole show that's even talking about the state of things. I'm curious about that. But if people want to get in touch with you, Kyle, how can they do so.
- [29:59]
Kyle Matthews
Yeah, you could. Look, I have social media. This is something I just started a year or two ago. So speaking of Sarahan, I got to get on. He's looking up to him and he is the best. He's the best from a branding and marketing. So credit to Sarahan. I got, I got to, I have to step up my game. But on X, I always want to call it Twitter on X, on Instagram, it's at Kyle Matthews, CEO, you could DM me and I do the best I can to respond to him in a certain amount of time. Obviously LinkedIn. Just look up Kyle Matthews, the website matthews.com if you have anything commercial real estate from a service need. We're in pretty much every market, you know, definitely all the larger ones. And so yeah, have, have, have Ryan and I back to talk all things real estate. He's on the residential side, I'm on the commercial side. And I mean to your point, that's an hour long conversation with what's going on with rates, supply and demand. Follow the jobs. Like there's so much into real estate that I'd love to talk about, but that's a, that's a longer conversation for a different day.
- [30:55]
I would like to.
- [30:55]
Daniel
We're looking at doing more roundtable discussions. So I'm going to make that happen.
- [30:59]
Kyle Matthews
Make it happen, Jack.
- [31:01]
Daniel
And we'll do it in person because I think that'll be even, that'll be even more interesting. But Kyle, thank you so much. This has been great. I learned a lot. I got a lot of great sound bites that I want to share with other people and I'm always appreciative because our mission is to impact 100 million people here at Founder Story. So the more that we can share your story and amplify that, I know people are going to be inspired. So thank you so much and we're honored to have you on today.
- [31:27]
Kyle Matthews
I'm honored to be here. Daniel. I can't thank you enough. Thank the audience for listening. And my, my one last thing is, and I tell people here all the time, if I can do it, you can do it. I don't have a unique skill. I don't consider myself that, that smarter emotional intelligence is okay. It's just, it's hard work, mental toughness and just pushing through. So if you're, if you're thinking about starting a business, just, just go for it, man. You know, fear is not the reason not to do something.
- [31:54]
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- [32:22]
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