Michael Tamvakologos Reveals What Every Business Owner Needs to Know About AI and the Future of Law | S2 Ep. 163

Summary

Founder's Story: Michael Tamvakologos on AI and the Future of Law (S2 Ep. 163)
Host: Dan | Guest: Michael Tamvakologos | Release Date: December 27, 2024

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Introduction: Celebrating a Legal Luminary

In Episode 163 of Founder's Story, hosted by Dan from IBH Media, listeners are introduced to Michael Tamvakologos, a distinguished partner at Zafarth Shaw. Recognized by Forbes and Vanity Fair, rated by Pierce as a preeminent Australian employment lawyer for eight consecutive years, and awarded Best Lawyers’ Employee Benefits Lawyer of the Year in 2023, Michael brings a wealth of experience representing some of the world's most successful private and public companies.

Dan: "Michael, you've navigated both the legal and business worlds. Tell me about that and share your story of how you became successful as an attorney."
[00:51]

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Navigating the Intersection of Law and Business

Michael shares his journey, emphasizing the privilege of working with leading companies globally and the continuous learning derived from interactions with intelligent, hardworking clients and business leaders.

Michael: "I've been very fortunate in my career to work with many of the leading companies in Australia and some globally and to learn from a lot of really great people..."
[01:01]

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Key Insights for Entrepreneurs

Delving into what every entrepreneur should know, Michael highlights the importance of long-term vision and strategic thinking. He underscores how successful business leaders look beyond immediate challenges to align their legal and commercial strategies with long-term goals.

Michael: "They really have a very deep sense of where they want the business to go, not only in the next week or the next month, but the next five or 10 years."
[01:56]

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Transitioning from Small to Large Clients

Michael discusses the complexities that arise when scaling from smaller companies to larger, publicly listed enterprises. He explains the layered governance structures of large organizations versus the centralized decision-making in private or family-owned businesses. Effective communication and understanding diverse business drivers are crucial in navigating these transitions.

Michael: "Understanding that rich tapestry of governance and decision making and being able to communicate advice very effectively for all of those different people is really critical in a role like mine."
[03:23]

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Embracing Technology in Legal Practice

Addressing the impact of emerging technologies, particularly Artificial Intelligence (AI) and future advancements like quantum computing, Michael views these innovations as both opportunities and challenges. He emphasizes the ethical and advantageous use of technology to enhance efficiency and reduce costs, especially in managing large volumes of legal documents. However, he asserts that technology cannot replace the human elements of connection, communication, and collaboration essential for achieving business outcomes.

Michael: "Technology is not going to replace the need for humans to connect with each other, to communicate effectively, to understand each other..."
[07:51]

Michael: "Properly harnessed, [technology] can be a very powerful tool to help us work with our clients very effectively."
[05:27]

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The Future of AI and Legal Services

In response to a query about bridging AI and legal services, Michael elaborates on the transformative potential of AI. He envisions a future shaped by powerful technologies that will revolutionize global commerce. While AI can streamline legal processes and enhance efficiency, the human touch remains irreplaceable in fostering meaningful business relationships and achieving strategic objectives.

Michael: "It's such a great question and I think there's so much discussion about artificial intelligence at the moment... It won't surprise you to understand that in the legal profession we deal with lots of documents."
[05:49]

Michael: "Technology I see most you're a...[incomplete quote continued below]"
[07:51]

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Managing Large Litigations: Teamwork and Preparation

Michael likens handling significant litigation to being part of a high-performing football team. Success hinges on each member excelling in their role and the team working cohesively toward a common goal. Intensive preparation, often spanning years, is crucial for navigating the complexities of long-term legal battles. Michael recently celebrated a decade-long litigation success, highlighting the marathon-like nature of such endeavors.

Michael: "Being involved in large litigation is a little bit like being part of a highly successful football team..."
[11:36]

Michael: "Every day we have to bring our A game, and that's what we try to do."
[14:15]

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The Importance of Continuous Learning: Recommended Reading

Highlighting the value of continuous learning, Michael recommends "Shoe Dog" by Phil Knight, the founder of Nike. He praises the book for its honest portrayal of the trials and tribulations faced during Nike's rise to global prominence, emphasizing the critical role of perseverance, character, and teamwork in overcoming challenges.

Michael: "If I had to single out a single book that I've read in recent times, it would be Shoe Dog by Phil Knight... It's really an inspiring story, but also I think quite a realistic one."
[14:46]

Michael: "...senior executives of large corporations, business founders, entrepreneurs, we tend to glamorize the success. But there's so much that sits behind that..."
[17:17]

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Concluding Thoughts and How to Connect

As the conversation wraps up, Michael encourages listeners to engage with his firm's resources, particularly the Workplace Law and Strategy Blog, which offers high-quality insights tailored to help clients advance their business success. He invites anyone interested in his expertise to reach out for assistance.

Michael: "Our firm has a terrific blog titled the Workplace Law and Strategy Blog where I and my partners do our best to provide really valuable insights..."
[17:48]

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Final Remarks

Episode 163 of Founder's Story offers a deep dive into the confluence of law, business strategy, and technology through the lens of Michael Tamvakologos's extensive experience. His insights provide invaluable guidance for entrepreneurs navigating the complexities of scaling their businesses and leveraging emerging technologies like AI to stay ahead in the legal landscape.

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Notable Quotes

• On Long-Term Vision:
  "They really have a very deep sense of where they want the business to go, not only in the next week or the next month, but the next five or 10 years."
  [01:56]

• On Technology's Role:
  "Properly harnessed, [technology] can be a very powerful tool to help us work with our clients very effectively."
  [05:27]

• On Teamwork in Litigation:
  "Every day we have to bring our A game, and that's what we try to do."
  [14:15]

• On Recommended Reading:
  "Shoe Dog by Phil Knight... It's really an inspiring story, but also I think quite a realistic one."
  [14:46]

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Connect with Michael Tamvakologos

For more insights and to engage with Michael Tamvakologos, visit the Workplace Law and Strategy Blog by Zafarth Shaw or reach out directly through their official website.

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Note: Advertisements and non-content segments have been omitted to focus on the core discussion.

Transcript

[Michael Tam Vous]

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[Michael Tam Vous]

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[Dan]

Hey everyone. Welcome back to Founder story. Today we have Michael Tam Vous, partner at Zafarth Shaw. Michael, you've been featured in Forbes Vanity Fair, rated by Pierce as a preeminent Australian employment lawyer for eight years running. You've even been voted by Best Lawyers as the employee benefits lawyer of the year in 2023. And you've been representing many of the world's most successful private and public companies.

[Unknown]

Welcome to the show.

[Michael Tam Vous]

Thank you so much, Dan. Real pleasure to be with you.

[Dan]

You've navigated both the legal and business worlds. Tell me about that and share your story of how you became successful as an attorney.

[Michael Tam Vous]

Well, thank you. Thank you very much for that introduction. I've been very fortunate in my career to work with many of the leading companies in Australia and some globally and to learn from a lot of really great people that I have interacted with along the way, whether that's inside my own law firm or just very intelligent and hard working clients and business people who I've represented along the way.

[Dan]

I really like how you're saying you're learning from your clients in different ways. I think we don't always look at it in terms of, you know, I'm helping this person, but also what this person can help for me. What is one or two learnings that you've had that every entrepreneur or every person who wants to be an entrepreneur needs to know?

[Michael Tam Vous]

I think one of the key insights when working with leading business people is their ability to look behind the immediate issue that is confronting them. They they really have a very deep sense of where they want the business to go, not only in the next week or the next month, but the next five or 10 years. They are typically long term thinkers and all of their legal strategies, all of their commercial planning is geared around those long term strategies. And that's something that over 20 years of legal practice has really, I think, also become part of my DNA to always look behind the immediate legal question that you've been asked, to look beyond the dispute that you're looking to resolve in a particular case, whether it's a dispute that has reached the court stage or it's at some earlier stage, you're always really thinking about the deeper business implications of what you're doing. And I think that's something that clients.

[Dan]

See and appreciate as you've continued to grow your business and you start working with bigger and bigger clients. What is something that you've learned in terms of when you go from smaller company, small clients to then transitioning to a bigger company with bigger clients?

[Michael Tam Vous]

What I find, particularly when you're dealing with very large listed companies which are in Australia on, say, the Australian Stock Exchange or in the us, they might be listed on the New York Stock Exchange or the Nasdaq, if they're technology companies, is as an advisor. We're dealing with many layers of governance, a number of decision makers within a large organization. Whereas if we're dealing with private companies, large family businesses, for example, the decision making tends to be centralised within a smaller number of people, or indeed, in some cases, a single person making all of the decisions. So understanding that rich tapestry of governance and decision making and being able to communicate advice very effectively for all of those different people is really critical in a role like mine. And again, understanding the different business drivers that are motivating all of those people to make the decisions that they wish to make, that's really key. The other aspect that I would mention is I work in a team sport. It's a little bit like playing football. It's important to have the right players on the park. But what's equally important is that everybody work together in a very aligned fashion, leveraging, of course, all of the latest technology. And I regard technology as an enormous plus. There's a lot of commentary about how technology will affect the legal profession in positive and negative ways, but my view is that properly harnessed, it can be a very powerful tool to help us work with our clients very effectively.

[Dan]

Well, I'm glad you bring that up. There was a company recently that was.

[Unknown]

Acquired for hundreds of millions of dollars.

[Dan]

Who is bridging the gap between AI and legal. And I found it very fascinating reading about this. What is your perspective on all these emerging technologies and how not only is it shaping the legal world, but also business in general?

[Michael Tam Vous]

It's such a great question and I think there's so much discussion about artificial intelligence at the moment, and clearly we're at the vanguard of something that is going to be very powerful. We should also think beyond artificial intelligence. It hasn't happened yet, but at some point we're going to have access to very powerful quantum computing technologies and other technologies which really change the way that all commerce across the globe operates. My perspective on it is to see it as an enormous opportunity, but also an enormous challenge. We have to put in a lot of time and effort to really understand these technologies and how they can be used how they can be used ethically, but also advantageously for the benefit of our clients. It won't surprise you to understand that in the legal profession we deal with lots of documents. It's not uncommon for me in a large piece of litigation to be dealing with tens of thousands, sometimes over 100,000 documents which need to be properly analysed and presented to a court. And technology. That's one example where technology can really help us to work very efficiently, get costs down and be more effective. There are also certain things, though, that technology is not going to replace. Technology is not going to replace the need for humans to connect with each other, to communicate effectively, to understand each other and our respective motivations, and to work very collaboratively together in order to achieve the kinds of business outcomes that our clients expect. So technology I see most you're a.

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[Michael Tam Vous]

Is a neutral thing. And if we think about the important technologies of the past, whether it be the Internet or email or even some other technologies like for example, the splitting of the atom, they can be harnessed in very positive ways and very negative ways. And it's up to us humans as leaders and decision makers to decide where those technologies go into the future.

[Dan]

I'm glad you bring up the emerging technologies. It's a lot of different technologies coming together in this one point. So when you review complex litigations and the many situations where your clients have had outstanding results, what are the secrets to success? Are there any common ingredients?

[Michael Tam Vous]

There certainly are common ingredients. I mentioned earlier that being involved in large litigation is a little bit like being part of a highly successful football team where there are a lot of people Involved not only the players on the field, but those outside who are playing very important support roles. And what everybody needs to do is to perform their own role to the highest level possible and combine with each other so that when you've got large teams of people working together, for example, to seek to resolve an important piece of litigation or see it through a trial which may last for many months, and really test people physically, mentally, emotionally, we're all working together with that common goal, and we all are very aligned. And coming into that critical period, have engaged in a very, very intensive level of preparation, typically many months, sometimes years. In fact, just this week, I had a judgment delivered in a matter which was very successful outcome for our client, which was 10 years in the making. It was 10 years ago that that litigation had commenced, and it only resolved by judgment this week. So these things can be a marathon. And we rely on quite a number of people to work at a very, very high level for a long period of time to achieve those kinds of outcomes. And my role as a partner of the firm is not only to be a strong individual contributor to that success, but also to support my team to try to get the absolute best out of them, ensure that they're enjoying their careers and able to do the best work that they can. Every single day. Every day we have to bring our A game, and that's what we try to do.

[Dan]

I think the most successful companies that we get to talk to would all agree that the team is critical to the success of any organization. I like the being a football team. Everyone has different roles, they play different things, and when they work together, you can have great outcomes. So you have an incredible bookshelf behind you, which makes me think that you are an avid reader. And you have to have at least one book that's been impactful for you or one book that you recommend to everyone who's in business.

[Michael Tam Vous]

I do, Dan. Thank you. I have thousands of books here at home, and I've enjoyed reading every one of them. If I had to single out a single book that I've read in recent times, it would be Shoe dog by Phil Knott, the founder of Nike. Really an incredible story about the development of Nike from a very, very small business to the global giant that we all know and love today. That story really grabbed me because apart from being an incredible story of business success, Stillnut is so raw and honest about what he had to go through personally, how building that company tested him and his team, including Bauman, in so many ways. And it's really quite A beautiful story of a group of friends who leaned on each other at so many critical points in their lives, through all of the personal things that they had to go through, that all of us go through from time to time. And there were so many points where Nike was really at a crossroads and might not have gone on to become what we now know it to be. There were business betrayals, there were huge financing problems, partnerships that broke a path. And Phil Knott and his team were really able, through sheer force of will, character and talent, just persevere through all of those things. And stories, for example, of receiving small amounts of equity funding from family members of the founders, which of course then later turned into unbeknownst to all of them probably when they made the investment, quite fabulous sums of money. It's just a really inspiring story, but also I think quite a realistic one because senior executives of large corporations, business founders, entrepreneurs, we tend to glamorize the success. But there's so much that sits behind that and I think it's a really great story that tells that story very well.

[Dan]

I learned a lot from that book. I really, really enjoyed that book. I think I've read it to it a few times. I did learn in reading that book it's really critical that you have a great attorney in your business. I learned that for sure. Like you said, there's a lot of ups and downs in his life and it seemed like being the founder of Nike must be the most amazing thing, not realizing it was a bumpy journey and road. But thank you for sharing that. If people want to get in touch with you, they want to find out more information. How can they do so well?

[Michael Tam Vous]

I'm relatively easy to find Dan on Google. Our firm has a terrific blog titled the Workplace Law and Strategy Blog where I and my partners do our best to provide really valuable insights to our clients that we think can help them to move the needle on their business success. It's not just information, it's not recent news. It's really high quality insights that allow us to take what we learn from clients and through our own experience and try to deliver greater level of value to our clients. So please consult that and of course be in touch. If I can assist with anything, it.

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