← Founder's Story
Founder's Story
The $2.8B Brand Builder Explains Why Your Marketing Is Failing | Ep 311 with Bill Harper Co-Founder of BrandBossHQ
00:27:45
In this episode of Founder’s Story, Daniel sits down with Bill Harper, known as the $2.8B Brand Builder, to unpack why brands win or disappear. Bill argues that story is not a nice to have, it is the entire mechanism of persuasion. From emotional relevance and pain avoidance to edutainment, category positioning, and why AI cannot replace strategy, this conversation is a masterclass in how modern brands earn attention and convert it into growth.
Loading summary
Transcript38 lines
- [00:00]
A
ADP knows anything can change the world of work. Like what if a blocked shipping port caused a worldwide coffee shortage? Suddenly, businesses are scrambling to manage an increasingly drowsy workforce. Productivity slips 20% just due to the extended time it takes to conduct a job interview while yawning. Anything can change the world of work. From HR to payroll, ADP helps businesses take on the next anything. ADP always designing people if you're the
- [00:28]
B
purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted partner makes all the difference. That's why hands down, you count on Grainger for auto reordering. With on time restocks, your team will have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift and you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [00:57]
A
When you fly Emirates on business, you can relax from the start. You get a complimentary chauffeur driven transfer from your door to the airport. Then when you land, your chauffeur will be ready to take you wherever you want to go. It's exclusive for Emirates first and business class travellers and with world class service in the Emirates lounge and exceptional comfort on board, it's just a better way to do business. Book now on emirates.com.
- [01:28]
B
So I think Bill, you and I, I wish we recorded everything that we've already said but you're the $2.8 billion brand builder.
- [01:38]
A
This is true.
- [01:39]
B
You have the secret. You've unlocked the key as to what what makes a brand stand out. And and I love the fact that you talk about story since the whole reason I made this show, founder stories because I also saw that the story is so I think the story is more important than the lesson that's taught from the person's perspective. But I'd love to hand it to you around why is the story? Why are you so big about the story?
- [02:08]
A
Story is everything we are and do everything that you've ever known, everything that you have ever learned has come through story. If you go to a cocktail party ton night and decide that you just met your new best friend or the biggest jerk you ever met in your life, it's because of how you related what you believe in and what you value through story. And what has happened in business is that we think it's about dollars and cents and features and benefits, but it's not. It's about storytelling. And what is it that we believe that we're going to get from a Brand that is going to change our life for the better. And that's not done done when we just rattle off. You know, once upon a time there was a three speed blender with a quick release lid for easy cleaning. Like no one can relate to that. But if what you say instead is don't you hate it when your margaritas have lumps and your mother in law looks at you and goes, our margaritas never have lumps at home. And you go, damn it, I need a stronger blender with bigger blades so that I can get there. And if the company comes out and just says we have stronger blenders with bigger blades, they don't make the connection. But if you come out and go, don't you hate it when this happens? You go, yes, that happened to me last week. I hate that that happened. I don't ever want to have that happen again. I hate that feeling. Now what we've done is we've tripped into the emotional decision making process. I care about something so I'm emotionally invested. Now. The reward for that to the business is tell me how your blender makes sure that I'll never have that moment again. At which point you get to talk about all the stuff that you're excited about, which is our sharper blades and our, I don't know, Hurricane, cyclone cup, whatever. Anyway, all that stuff that excites you about your product is step two. Step one is figuring out what the story is that that person needs to hear that they can relate to. And we refer to that as relevance. If you say something that is relevant to somebody, that means that it's a story they can identify with. Everybody on the planet is in one of two heat seeking modes. At any given moment in time. I am either trying to achieve something or I'm trying to avoid something. The more that I see that your story shows that you give me an advantage to my situation, the more I'm emotionally invested in wanting to learn more about your company. When businesses do that, they become liquid death. Dollar, Shave Club, Nike, Disney, Apple, the rest. And the rest of us are just left to sit on the sidelines going, gosh, how did those guys do do it? But to a business, the way they got there was story. And that's what I help businesses understand. What story do they need to tell to be able to scale?
- [04:42]
B
So I've, I've heard this before and I don't know if this is true, but driving people away from pain is more powerful than driving people to pleasure. What would you say about that?
- [04:53]
A
That is absolutely True. And it's one of the biggest things in marketing that people see and respond to but then are terrified to try. Years ago, Wendy's came out with where's the beef? Right? And the whole idea was that they had these square hamburgers that stuck out of the buns, right? And they were like, well, our hamburgers are weird and they're square and they stick out of the buns. Now, they could have come out and said, we make bigger hamburgers. And that would have been delightful and lovely and whatever, and no one would have paid any attention. Instead, they said, if you can't see the meat, then the bun's too big and you're getting scammed. And what they did there was they caused this thing that no one had ever thought about before. People have been getting me McDonald's and Burger King hamburgers forever and never thought twice about it. Wendy's came out and said, where's the beef, dude? And every single person was like. I mean, to the point where it became a cultural phenomenon. Everybody was looking at him and going, you know, they bring up a good point. We should have more meat on our hamburgers. And that thing is what led Wendy's to take its rightful place alongside those two culture or industry giants right before Then when Wendy's came out, and I'm old enough to remember when it did, they didn't have any standing at all. It was very much like what Chick Fil A did with the cows, right? Chick Fil A came out, and they could have said, well, we make chicken sandwiches, and that's fantastic. And instead, they had a bunch of cows say, stop eating us. Eat more chicken. And that thing became so playful and such a fun story that everybody was like, yeah, I'll go give them a try. Let's see if the cows know what they're talking about. That sort of playful nature in messaging, which we refer to as edutainment, is the difference between a company that succeeds and becomes a category powerhouse and one that just brambles along until they ultimately fail.
- [06:38]
B
I think some people are like, well, my industry is boring. And I know you were just giving me the examples of insurance. Can you talk about that? Because I think people might see, oh, well, these are, like, fun things. You can create fun in these industries, but my industry is just dead boring. Like, there's no way that I can create something. And what I do that's going to stick around.
- [07:01]
A
There is no industry on the planet. Let me say it again so the folks at home can hear. There is no industry on the planet that cannot be made fun and interesting. Not one. And insurance is a phenomenal example because people hate insurance. And there is literally no difference between any provider.
- [07:19]
B
Okay?
- [07:20]
A
You are literally buying based on story. And so here are a couple of stories that stand out in the marketplace. Geico is for people who prize time and money 15 minutes or less, 15% or more. They own that. Progressive understands that people hate insurance. And all they want to know in the world is that you are going to serve me no matter what, because I'm paying for this ridiculous thing that I hate in the first place. So Flo and her band of merry men are all there to serve at the master's feet whenever they can. Farmers is all about experience. We know a few things because we've seen a few things. And Allstate is all about showing how it feels to have life throw you awful curveballs through this funny character called mayhem. And so for each one of us, we gravitate to a particular type of solution. Hey, I'm really serious about my time and my money. You're a GEICO person. Hey, I don't care about any of this. I just want you to serve me. You're a progressive person. Hey. Hey, I really want to know that you've got experience. You're over at Farmers and please, I hate all of this. Just make me laugh. Those folks are going to be over at All State. There's nothing wrong with any story. The question is, what story is most appropriate for your business? What's the one that feels the most like you? The tone is most aligned with who you all are as people. And then we build on that to go out into market, and that's where all of it really takes root and becomes an advantage to your growth.
- [08:46]
B
You know, the wild thing is, as you're talking through these taglines or these storylines, I can remember all of them even going back to, like. Like, was it time to make where's the Beef?
- [08:58]
A
Yeah, time to make the donuts. Where's the beef? Yeah. The easy. The easy button from Staples. Like, if you think back on the companies that stood forward, like, I think. Think about this for just a second. Liquid Death is the least innovative company on the face of the planet. Least innovative company. They put flavored water in a can. Do you have any idea how many hundreds and thousands of competitors that they have? But they understood that people standing at a party didn't always want to drink beer and you didn't want to just drink a water because you felt like a dork at the party. So what they did was they said, well, what if you had an impure water brand? Not unpure, but impure. If all the rest of the water brands were Pollyanna running around saying, we're pure, we're pure, we're pure. What would happen if you imagined an irreverent older brother water company that stumbled in the house drunk at 2 in the morning? That's what Liquid Death became. They became the irreverent alternative to going out and just being regular water brand. So when I go to a party now, if I don't feel like drinking a beer, I can still hold something that kind of makes it fit into the crowd, but it's water and it's all cool. And in solving that social problem and in telling that story in a really fun way, which Liquid Death excels at, they have scaled in eight and a half years to be worth over a billion dollars in valuation. Most companies would cut off their right arm to have that kind of scale and growth. But in order to get there, you have to have a story that your target audience can relate to.
- [10:35]
B
It's insane. And it reminds me of Dollar Shave Club and, and the use of, I think that was like really the first major use of humor. But, but like, like you're saying edgy humor on something that was, you know, not food related, that, you know, a shave, like a shave. Like you said, their shavers were pretty horrible. In my experience when I use those, terrible shaver. But people bought it and I mean the, the how fast it grew is quite insane. So can you. And by the way, I couldn't help but think before about State Farm because every time I see someone named Jake, I always say Jake from State Farm. It's pretty bad, like how this stuff sticks with us. I can't even remember like important things in my life, but I can remember these things. What are some of the steps that, that business owners can take now? Because I think, I think we're all sold on. Like look, we need the story. No story, no glory. Like we need these things. But how do I even go about doing this? Because I am not someone that's a good storyteller.
- [11:36]
A
Number one is you've got to identify one thing that the brand stands for. It is incredibly difficult when businesses keep pivoting to create the reputation and the momentum that's necessary to build expectation. A brand is nothing more than expectation. If I say James Bond move movie, you know exactly what you're going to get. If I say McDonald's french fries, you know exactly what you're going to get. And the reason is because there is consistency in the. In the thing that is represented, right? James Bond is always loyal to a fault, physically fit. He always gets the bad guy, he always gets the girl, and he always has gadgets, and he's always shaken, not stirred. Now, that's different than the international spy that is Jason Bourne, right? And that's different than Austin Powers or Ethan Hunt, all of whom are basically commodity products, the same thing. So the first thing that we got to do is we got to decide what is it that we're really selling. So in the case of, say, Volvo and I use cars because they're easy. Volvo just sells safety, and they never deviate off that message. Porsche only sells performance. Mercedes only sells luxury. Prius only sells saving the world one gas tank at a time. Figuring out what your company represents as an idea is step number one. Step number two is changing all of your messaging to showing people how your solution changes their circumstance for the better. Not describing your solution, but talking about how you change their circumstance for the better. Let's show you an unsafe solution, and then let's show you how Volvo keeps it safe. Or let's show you a car that's crunched on both sides, but the cabin stays undamaged. These stories relay the value of the brand without boring the audience to death with a list of the features and benefits. And that's the big thing that's different. The other thing is understanding that the funnel, the marketing funnel, is very specific. At the top, at awareness, you're looking to excite people. This is where Jeep shows you driving through, you know, streams and up rocks and crazy mountains and things like that. They're not talking about the gas mileage. They're not talking about shock absorbers or the buy this weekend that comes later in the process as you move down it goes. Why should I emotionally engage? Step two is, is my emotional engagement justified? Tell me something about the product that makes me believe that it would be a good choice to be emotionally engaged. The next one is why should I buy now? And then the next level down is once I've bought, how do I continue to stay with the brand? That set of four stages is really important. If you can master those things. What is your. What is your one story? How can we get everything that we talk about to show you how we make your life better? And making sure that you've covered all four of the bases in that marketing funnel, you're going to be ahead of 95% of the businesses on the Planet Man.
- [14:31]
B
I'm going to take what you just said. I'm going to plug that into Claude.
- [14:35]
C
If you're an H Vac technician and a call comes in, Grainger knows that you need a partner that helps you find the right product fast and hassle free. And you know that when the first problem of the day is a clanking blower motor, there's no need to break a sweat. With Grainger's easy to use website and product details, you're confident you'll soon have everything humming right along. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [15:04]
B
And I'm have Claude help me start to figure out what those things are. I mean that's amazing. Like this. Thank you for sharing that. Something I'm really, really excited about are these are how, how social media videos now are transforming ads. I was just watching a video yesterday and what I've noticed is they're hiring these people that do comedic videos on social media like these comedic shorts and they make a really funny video but in the end it's an ad. And then I'm like oh. At the end I'm like oh my gosh, that was an ad. And then I like to read the comments to see and everyone's like shocked. Like that was the most entertaining, like the edutainment, that was the most entertaining video. But they're hiring. I don't know what you, if you've, what your thoughts on this, but they're basically hiring comedy people. And I talked to ClickUp, I don't know if you're familiar with like ClickUp. So they said that they went to, they went to comedy shows and hired these like actors who are not really acting very much but they're trying because they're cheaper than hiring content creators and they paid them like their day rate just to pump out content. But, but, and now a few of them are like full time and now they're full time at ClickUp making this content. But they've also gone on now and their content is like really huge.
- [16:25]
A
Funny makes money. Everybody loves comedy. Everybody loves to be entertained. And the thing of it is the faster you get to an entertainment level, the more sticky and engaging your, your material is. The challenge is that businesses think it's about being serious. The funny part of it is that they enjoy the funny content just as much as everybody else does. But the second they walk into their own building, they drop right back into the silo that says this is business. This is very important, it's very serious. And the problem is, is that that's not how people buy. So the internal team has all got their arms crossed saying we're very serious and our product is better than everybody else. And the average consumer is like, Dude, I got 10 seconds before I have to pick up my daughter at recital. If I forget to get mayonnaise, my wife is going to yell at me. I got a new boss I can't stand. This guy in front of me won't go at a green light. Their whole life is like 15 pounds of reality shoved in a five pound sack. What they're desperate for for is yeah, I gotta solve the problem, but for the love of goodness, man, just entertain me along the way. And if businesses understood that that was true more than they do, they would stop being the stuff shirt boring things that they are and they would start attracting real people to come buy from them. And once that happens, once they truly understand it, you can't unsee it. Then it becomes a thing that you get hungry for. Now I want that because I really liked it. People talked more about me, they shared my stuff because it was worth sharing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That momentum is what builds business.
- [18:01]
B
I watch this one. It's like the Brooklyn Coffee shop and they've just propelled to the stratosphere. It's like a coffee shop that they have these two people and it's a real coffee shop, but it's like a fake coffee shop and it's just a story every day. And I was listening to somebody else walking through how they're, how they're looking at basically brands creating like a, like a movie or a TV show, like a short one that they ongoing do that just integrates the brand into it. But it's not, the show is not about the brand. Like there's a, there's a guy who writes these notes all around this resort and he's always writing these notes to people and it's like a whole story. But, but the resort is the actual brand that owns the TV show. Or like luggage. It's like a, a couple and these friends that move to New York City and they, they're always moving around with this luggage. And there's like a whole story in dating and moving to the city. But the, but the luggage is the one that's paying for this show. How do you see this, like going forward in terms of brands creating this type of content that is basically like an ongoing story?
- [19:09]
A
There is no doubt that the opportunity to become a creative engine more along the lines of a production company exists for every business. It is, however, a significant transition. Right to go Netflix transition from I distribute pre made movie content to I am a series creator is a significant transition. And not everybody can make that journey, right? They can hardly get to the Eduardo Edutainment phase as it is like creating themselves or recreating themselves as a movie studio or television series production company is almost like completely beyond the stratosphere of their consideration. But I don't think that you have to go that far. One of the funniest, most effective things that I have seen in the last couple months was a series of posts that were done by Little Caesars and Little Caesars when I was young and coming up was really funny. That was back in the pizza pizza time, right? And there were some hysterical, hysterical spots that were done. Like the lucky day guy where everything he did was lucky. It was like, you found my wallet, I have a brother. Like there were all these like just super fortuitous weirdo things. Well, anyway, they, they did a post recently and it was really interesting because it was supposedly a guy that worked at the pizza shop, or I'm sorry, visiting a pizza shop, picking up a pizza, who relayed how this guy came in to rob the Little Caesars and the guy behind the counter jumped over the counter and the pizza and took out the guy and like, he's writing this whole thing. Like I was standing there and like I went in to get my pizza and this guy came in and then he threatened the thing and the guy like did this judo move in like this kung fu thing and like went up through this and they did this and then he tied him up with his belt and then he went around and was like, that'll be $9 for the pizza, right? And it was one of the most entertaining things that I'd ever read. Like, I'm glued to this thing and there were millions of views on these like Little Caesars posts that were just these really well written, funny, completely ridiculous scenarios. But you earned their attention, right? That was the thing. Just like a movie, just like a good TV show, you earned the attention of the viewer. And that's what businesses need to do if they want to convert them into sales.
- [21:25]
B
I like that, Ernie. It's like duolingo. And then they killed off the mascot and such and such and they really, it really transformed like the short period of time transformed the brand. And I love what you're saying because I've seen this too, where brands they don't spend a huge amount of money. They do something like, there's the sign guy in TikTok. Very controversial. A lot of people hate him, but a lot of people love him. Like, there's. I saw a restaurant that does something similar where they're just. It's cheap. Like, it's not spending a lot of money. They're doing it very cheaply. But it's really, it's. It's creating, like you said, the, the attention. It's grabbing the attention because our attention is very short. You were saying something before, because I know you have, you have. I don't know if it's a book about Steve Jobs at the bottom. Tell me about Steve Jobs.
- [22:13]
A
The thing that I think is so amazing about this particular quote is all about the. The mindset, right? And one of the things that he famously said was when he was first starting Apple, I pushed the universe and. And it moved. And I was so surprised at the reaction, I pushed it again to see what would happen next. And I wish that more business owners would take that same mentality when it came to creating marketing. I think if they would let go of their mindset that marketing has to be serious and it has to be about, you know, how great our product is and the rest of it. And we have to do it just like everybody else, because that's how it's done. They don't realize how much they're hurting themselves. If they would look at things in terms of what if instead of what is, which is exactly what that quote from Steve Jobs is all about, they would open up for themselves an entirely new way to think about their position in the category and the way that they talk to consumers and the way that they related to them, that would have a profoundly positive impact on their businesses. And it has been proven by brands like Nike and Disney and Apple and Dollar Shave Club and Poo Pourri, and the list goes on and on. They see it as individuals, but they just can't make the jump as business owners. That hurdle is what we spend the majority of our time in, advertising businesses, helping customers get across.
- [23:34]
B
It's kind of amazing when I think about, like, Apple started by these two people, like Disney started by this one guy, Walmart started by this one person. It's kind of wild to think because now nowadays it's like, okay, if you want to create something big, you. You start something and you get a massive funding and you do all these things, but you look at these legacy brands and you're like, it was started by one Person who had like one idea, who made like one product, who did something kind of is almost like they did something kind of simple back then. Obviously. I know times have changed. How do you, how do you see AI playing into this? Because you have people arguing about the AI slop. No original ideas. You know, AI can create, but it's kind of boring. And maybe humans better or AI is better. What do you think about all this?
- [24:22]
A
There's a lot that we could go into. But very simply, AI is great for minimizing redundant tasks. It's phenomenal for that. It's also great for evaluating great amounts of data. Right. If you're trying to understand how something has performed over years, those kinds of things are great. It's also phenomenal and has leveled the playing field in terms of allowing any business to create print or video or things like that at the same level as anybody else. Right. Nike no longer has an advantage over my agency in terms of ability to create creative assets. I can go and create something that's at that level now and that's been proven by multiple brands. But it doesn't replace the experience of knowing what things are funny. What things will work, how will strategy work? The large language model that's behind an AI is trying to amass from all of these different things that have happened. Here's the common denominator. When that thing keeps getting served up, it's no longer original. It has never been original. Because what they're doing is, is they're saying, well, these are the things that worked. And here's the aggregate of that response that's going to lead a lot of businesses to some very poor decision making about how to use it. The companies that are using AI, well, are the ones that are using it as an efficiency tool or as a creative tool, not as a solution to the thinking or the strategy in the first place. I just can't do that, at least not at this level.
- [25:53]
B
Let's see what happens with all these agents. But I, I like what you're saying. I like, I haven't thought about, you know, how it's creating. The answer is not an original thought because it's just take it from all these other things to guess or estimate what it thinks that you want to hear. I gotta say, it's good if you want like a best friend that tells you all you want to know. Like tells you only things that you want to hear and you never want to hear anything bad. We wrote this book here called Unlimited Possibilities. And the reason I wrote this book is I thought back to when I was younger, all these things I wanted to do in life. And then as I got older, I tried to achieve those things and I call them the unlimited possibilities. What was for you, something when you think back to when you were younger that you then achieved later on in life and, and now thinking about those things, you're pretty amazed.
- [26:44]
A
The biggest thing I think was starting a company in the first place. The first time that we did that, I, you know, I was invited to be a part of a company that was just starting and I was very nervous about it and very afraid of it. Five businesses later, I see it as the most freeing, most, most creative direction possible. Right. Understanding your craft to a point where you feel confident standing in front of absolutely anybody is the most empowering thing you can possibly have happen. And owning your own company just facilitates that you are going to fail, learn and proceed at a rate like none other if you are in your own environment. And what that does for your ability to stand firm on your subject because you're not looking to your boss, did they approve of what you said? Etc is one of those big, big opening moments. And I think it isn't for everybody. There's a lot of hard work. I think people oversimplify it and they think to themselves, oh, I'm not going to have a boss. No, that's not the way that works. Now what you have is 10 bosses because every client you have is a boss, right? So it's different. It's not, it's just not what you're used to. But it isn't like it's, you know, we don't sit around eating bon bons because we own a company. Like, that's not how that works at all. So it isn't for everybody. But if you get the chance to try that sometime in your life, whether that is a lawn mowing service or it's a small company as a solopreneur, or it's a small partnership that does something. Your perspective on how business works, how people buy into things, why they do as it is now, all your responsibility is one of the most expanding mind things that you can possibly do for yourself. To say nothing of your empowerment and confidence in terms of what you're capable of.
- [28:32]
B
Bill, this has been great. I, I learned a lot. I learned a lot today. I mean, look at all the awards you have behind you. I mean, just that alone. What's your favorite award that's behind maybe what's, what's so meaningful that when you got that award, you're like, oh my gosh, I got this award.
- [28:48]
A
The thing is, it isn't about a single award. Every one of these represents a business that we changed. And that's, you know, that's amazing. And last time we added it up, it was $2.8 billion in net new revenue we generated on our client's behalf and over a career. That's, that's something that you can be proud of.
- [29:06]
B
I like that. I like that. This is Bill, this has been great. I learned a lot. I learned this might be the most I've ever learned. And my wheels are spin like, I'm like, I have to go create. I have to go write this down. I have to like so many ideas as you were talking. But I'm going to have the tagline. You could not have given me the tagline.
- [29:24]
A
You could not have given me a better compliment. I hope your listening audience gets something out of it as well. Thanks so much for having me.
- [29:31]
B
Thanks, Bill. Have a great one. Take care.
- [29:39]
C
If you're an H VAC technician and a call comes in, Grainger knows that you need a partner that helps you find the right product fast and hassle free. And you know that when the first problem of the day is a clanking blower motor, there's no need to break a sweat. With Grainger's easy to use website and product details, you're confident you'll soon have everything humming right along. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [30:09]
B
If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe.
- [30:14]
A
It really does help the show to grow.
- [30:16]
B
Thank you for listening.