← Founder's Story
Founder's Story
The B2B Creator Economy Is Wide Open and Nobody Knows Pricing Yet | Ep 329 with David Walsh Founder & CEO of Limelight
00:25:00
Daniel Robbins sits down with David Walsh, founder and CEO of Limelight, to break down the rise of B2B creator partnerships and why LinkedIn is becoming the highest leverage channel for founders and brands. David shares how building in public drove roughly 90 percent of Limelight’s revenue, why most creators price wrong because LinkedIn is still the wild west, and what brands actually want from creators right now. They also go deep on marketplace cold start, why top of funnel storytelling matters more than selling, and how Limelight aims to become the system of record for B2B creator programs.
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- [01:26]
B
So David, you and I have had the chance to work together. Limelight made me money. So I want to say first I appreciate you because I've been building my LinkedIn channel for, I don't maybe 10 years at this point and I didn't know if it would ever make me any money directly through like creating content for a company. Although I was excited for one day, LinkedIn is the hot thing right now. I've been waiting for this day and I'm sure you have, but I know you've this is your third company and I gotta say, how exciting is it that your third company is getting so much momentum?
- [02:04]
C
Thanks for having me on the show and I'm excited. It's always nice to hear that you got money from the product. Like that's the most exciting part about what we build, right? I have spent 12 years at B2B Software, launched a watch company, built an e commerce business, used influencers to grow us. That was back in 2017. So I knew how to grow businesses using creators and influencers but on the consumer side. And then I started a HR software company that grew it to 250 customers, raised $33 million, did everything backwards and wrong, raised too much capital, hired too many people. And then two years ago I just made this big bet that the future of marketing is personality led in B2B and I wanted to launch a consumer product because I so fascinated with consumer. But if you know anything about software, consumer is impossible. You just have to get to such a large volume. So I think we're in a nice mix where we've built a marketplace for content creators like yourselves who have LinkedIn, newsletters, podcasts, YouTube, business focused experts that have building audiences and trust for a long time. I made this big bet two years ago that they would want to monetize their audience. And the great thing about that is we get to build for the brands which is like software B2B traditional. You know, let's help them with not just a marketplace, but actually like marketing in general. And then on the consumer side it's like we put money into the back pockets of influencers. And that is so exciting. So always good to hear that you had a good experience using the product.
- [03:27]
B
I mean timing, right? I think the most successful founders that we've talked to and people like yourself, timing is like the most incredible thing. You build and build and build and all of a sudden, boom, it takes off. Let's talk about the beginning phases because I think anyone who has ever launched an app or a software knows. And we were just, we were just having a conversation earlier about like the chicken and egg, you gotta get, you know, one side is you have to get users, the other side is you have to get companies and like they have to work together. But how did you do that in the beginning phases?
- [04:02]
C
So, Daniel, I have launched two marketplaces in the past. I did not want to launch another marketplace. They are so difficult. There's a huge supply and demand issue. You have to get past this cold start. The marketplace just flops if you don't have enough traction on both sides. So we lowered the barriers to entry completely. We made the product free for six months. So we got as many creators as we could because we feel like they're the ones that will attract the brands. We identified the highest quality creators. We went through LinkedIn for three months and went through 30,000 profiles and scored, ranked and tagged creators and then made it a searchable interface which hadn't existed before. And we went out to brands and said, hey, would you pay for this? And you know, will you give me a subscription fee to get access to this. And the answer was yes. And so we jumpstart the cold start problem by getting and identifying the highest quality creators on LinkedIn, which we felt like had not been done before. There was influencer platform for consumer, for TikTok, for Instagram, but nobody had done it for LinkedIn. So that's where we started. And then we've expanded from there. And the marketplace, I think has hit an inflection point about six months ago where we actually just start to grow rapidly and there's network effects. But it was so painful, like, I mean, so painful to get to this point. And so we have all the benefits now of kind of tailwinds behind the product, but very painful to start a marketplace.
- [05:26]
B
How much do you think it helped that you were, you know, quote unquote, building in public? I keep hearing about this, like building in public. It's not really something I've tried. I don't know, I'm not sure how I personally feel about it for myself, not for others though. I mean, I love, I enjoy watching. But how did the fact that you were building more publicly, but also on LinkedIn as the platform?
- [05:50]
C
So I came up with the idea for Limelight because I was building in public. In fact, when I started Limelight, my clear thesis was I Want to build B2B software for marketing leaders. And we started with referral software because they needed more efficient ways to grow. I started posting content on LinkedIn every day. Ask me why. My last company I spent four years building, I never talked about it publicly once. And I was like, okay, I've done the behind the scenes building, you know, hiring people, raising capital, you know, all that other stuff of building companies. But I wasn't really the spokesperson for the brand. So I just said, this time I'm going to go all in. From day one, I'm just going to post everything of my thoughts. The good, the bad, the ugly, the highs, the lows. And so I started posting content on LinkedIn. And then because of that, I became much more aware of the creator economy in B2B and influencers and people who have built large audiences. And to give you some numbers, Daniel, 90%, I would say, of our revenue today comes from my LinkedIn content. Just posting content publicly on LinkedIn, that's how we've put ourselves on the map. And I think for any founders or any operators out there that are listening to this, any marketing leaders, you need a channel that is good, return on investment. And there's no better channel than employee advocacy and founder brand of course, it takes time and effort and consistency like everything else, but once you do it, it's incredibly powerful and I highly recommend it. It feels a bit orb with, though. Feels a bit unnatural to be posting your. Your numbers online and then telling people that things are going bad. But you build trust and you build audiences, and people you know end up becoming aware of you, trusting you, and
- [07:24]
B
they're buying from you 90%. That's insane. So if I'm somebody who's like, man, David says I need to do this, and he's successful at limelight right now, but how do I even get started? Is there a process? Is there something. Are there steps that you follow right now? Because I think, like you said, there's. We do a lot of things in a day, right? But what do I put on my account out of all the things that I'm doing?
- [07:49]
C
I can tell you what not to do. Number one, do not go to ChatGPT and say, Write a LinkedIn post for me. That is the worst idea ever. It will not work. Along with everyone else in the world that's trying to start out with doing this, the truth is, is you have to learn the craft, right? And some people are naturally better copywriters than others, right? I would say a mediocre copywriter. But once you start to read content from other people, follow their journey and interact on their content, you realize what's working, what formats are working, how to tell stories. You know, LinkedIn is short sentences to keep attention spans. The hook is really important. You learn all of that by doing it. So, like, number one, I think what I advise founders is like, or anybody essentially, that wants to build in public or just post content online on LinkedIn. Put yourself out there. Be be aware that you're going to look like an idiot at the beginning and people are going to be like, what? He's lost his mind. Number two, learn the craft. Like, don't, like, get into it. Understand what's working. Number three is consistency. What I see is people do this for two weeks, three weeks, because they sit on a podcast and say, this seems like a great idea. Let me go try it. And then they give up the moment that they get anxious because it's not working. It's like with everything, you have to see it at least three to six months minimum. If you don't do three to six months, you're not going to see the compounding nature of this. And then, yeah, again, maybe the common denominator of everything is be comfortable looking like an idiot. Look like A fool. I personally don't care because it drives revenue from my subscription revenue business. So when my friends from Ireland give out to me and say, you've lost your mind, you're an idiot. I point to the revenue and I'm like, I don't give a crap what you say. You're not building a software company. I am. And I'm okay with looking like an idiot for a little bit while I do it.
- [09:27]
B
Was there a time where you looked so much like an idiot where you said, this is it, I'm done with this, I'm not going to do this anymore.
- [09:35]
C
Every week, once a month at least, you have to put yourself out there and it feels awkward and sometimes it's a little bit too much. And I think that's natural. I like it with everything, you have to learn the muscle. So do I cringe at some posts every so often? Yeah. But guess what, Daniel, the ones that I cringe at usually get the most, return the most impressions, the most engagement, and the most revenue. So as you start to do this, you realize, okay, where's the line that I'm not willing to cross? And truthfully, at the beginning, maybe this is helpful for everyone else. I focused on growth of my audience. So we went from 2,000 followers to 42,000 followers, which meant I was posting a lot of top of funnel content, like engagement content, remote working benefits, stuff that people will interact with because it's universally understood. And then over time, I started layering in bottom of funnel, middle of funnel content. So middle of funnel is like industry. I talk about marketing in general. I posted about it today about a marketing. The marketing industry doesn't get as much engagement, but puts yourself as a thought leader. And then there's bottom of funnel, the selling limelight, which gets the lowest engagement. And Daniel, I would say most people default to when they start to write content. Let me write about me, let me go sell. And that is not the way to do it. You actually need to think, what does the audience want to hear? How do I tell a story? And how do I not just aggressively try to tell them that I'm great and here's my features and functionalities and let me go sell to them through content. Once you start to do that, you realize nobody gives a shit. So it's a whole strategy.
- [11:01]
B
By the way, I don't think you're an idiot, so I know I said that before displaying off the term that you use. So I don't think any of your posts sound like an idiot. I think your posts are great. We are our biggest critics, though. I don't even like to. I never watch interviews or discussions I have with anyone, by the way. I don't even like to watch myself because I, I'm, I, I'm. I start to nitpick so many things. 2,000 to 42,000. Incredible results right there. When you look at what you were talking about, top of the funnel, which seemed to get the most following traction or the ones that drove the most people that wanted to follow you? What type of post? Because I want to, I think I'm at like 34,000. I want to get to 80,000 or 60,000. Is there some type of post I can be doing that you think would move the needle in terms of, of strengthening the following count?
- [11:54]
C
We could do a whole podcast just on that topic alone. I could talk about it for ages. And by the time I finished recording the podcast, the game had changed, the algorithms changed. So, you know, what's working last week isn't working this week. I think, number one, AI slop is everywhere. Go to LinkedIn. Scroll. Nine posts out of 10 posts are AI slop. They're too well written, they're too structured, they're robotic, and they don't tell a story. So I think, number one, you have to input your own personal experience. Like, you know, an example of that is like last week I spoke to a designer and I got 1100 and something applicants. Here's why. You know, I interviewed this specific person. I posted about that last Friday. It got, I don't know, 30,000 impressions since Friday, which is again, hiring on LinkedIn is obviously a topic that a lot of people care about. It's a job search platform as well as many other things. But I also told a story, so I think it's like you've got to mix storytelling that I can't write into the mix and grasp users. And then look, you know, people might know this because they're probably interested in LinkedIn if they're listening to this podcast. But there's other ways to grow, right? Number one is write great content. That's what everyone thinks, right? But you also have to engage on other people's profiles that have audiences, so they engage back, right? And then the third one is just consistency of doing the work nonstop every single day.
- [13:16]
B
So I've been putting comments that I find to be funny or full of humor. Maybe those are not the right comments. Maybe I need to be more serious. When you, when you look at, like what you put onto other people's profiles,
- [13:29]
C
what works for you, comments that are humorous are good. In fact, now LinkedIn just made visible the amount of impressions you get from posts and from comments. I think anything to stand out instead of the generic ChatGPT automated comment that just takes the post picks one line and then regurgitates it back, the Bleacher
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- [15:19]
D
Hey, I'm Josh Spiegel, host of the podcast Lunatic in the Newsroom. If you enjoy journalism that drifts into mild panic, wild overthinking and a guaranteed nervous breakdown, Lunatic in the Newsroom is for you. It's news like you've never heard before. The only newsroom with a panic button. You'll laugh, you'll cry and gasp in horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news, it's emotionally unstable Lunatic in the Newsroom.
- [15:47]
C
Listen today, so if you add humor, you're gonna stand out from the crowd. So I would definitely do it. Don't insult people. Like, you can draw a line of like, I'm humorous, I'm funny, but I'm not like aggressively going after You. But I think LinkedIn is too conservative.
- [16:03]
B
Sometimes the impressions I get from my comments are better than the impressions I get from a post, but I try to do sometimes more controversial comments or like, like an opinion comment, hoping that other people would draw their opinion. Recently that happened. And I don't know, she was kind of making fun of me. I don't think she understood that there was humor in my comment. And she was like. I was like, whoa. So I end up deleting it. I do that a lot. Sometimes I'll post things. David. I'm like, I don't know, I don't like it. Then I ended up deleting it, which I probably should stop when you. What. What are companies? So you're. The great thing is you get a lot of great data. I imagine you're seeing. You're seeing not only you know what's working on the front end from the users, like the content creators, influencers, but you're also understanding the data of what companies want. So if I'm thinking about how to really structure my LinkedIn profile because I want to be attractive to companies, what do companies want?
- [17:04]
C
That's actually such a great question. I, you know, I'm not actually. I've not been asked that on a podcast before. So I'll give you, like, straight off the top of my head, I think, number one, what brands themselves are becoming more aware because B2B influencer is new. They're coming more aware of, like, the engagement bots, the profiles that are getting huge impressions and engagement, but it's actually just a farm of people interacting on each other's content. So I think authenticity is what I'm seeing all brands care about. And what's really interesting is they don't look for huge influencers and creators. Like, they're not looking for the people with a hundred thousand followers plus, they're looking for the people with 10 to 30,000, 10 to 40,000 followers who have built audiences that have trust and haven't really monetized it effectively yet and aren't doing brand partnerships five days a week, those types of people and audiences are the things that I'm seeing a lot of companies go after. And when I speak with, like, we work with Webflow, HubSpot, build.com zoom info, ActiveCampaign, pretty large enterprises, I'm like, okay, tell me your budget. And then they're like, okay, we've got $200,000 a month to spend. So, okay, I would. You can go wide, work with many creators, you can go high, work with the biggest creators, you can go deep multichannel partnership, you know, well, maybe it's a newsletter and an event and a part and a, and a LinkedIn post, which I always recommend. They do go deeper with creators and influencers, but most of the time I'm advising them to go wide. Work with as many as you can, get as much surface area content out there, see what's working, build an audience and then double down on the creators that are performing. So for people listening to this, if you're looking at your LinkedIn, I think authenticity is important to be clear about who your audience is, who you write for in your bio, in your header. Don't be vague, like, be very specific. And then I think in general, like, try do some brand partnerships. And once you start to do any brand partnerships, we've seen that a lot of brands are aware that they're available to do brand partnerships and then start to increase the amount of offers that go out to those creators. That's through data that we've been tracking on our platform.
- [19:06]
B
So what do you, what I don't even know, like, what is an average amount for like a creator like myself? What can I even earn from LinkedIn? I think I see standards of like Instagram, which I know there's everything is kind of all over the place like YouTube, but because there's been, you know, been people doing that for a longer time, I feel like there's some like standards that have been created out of air. What about LinkedIn?
- [19:30]
C
Nobody knows how much to charge, nobody knows how much to pay. It's the wild, wild west. We actually built benchmarks over the last two years, collecting data from all transactions to bring more transparency and educate both brands and creators, creators on what they're worth and brands on what they should pay, pay. But the truth is, even if we give them all the data, it's still a little bit like, you know, there's edge cases. I can give you some hard facts. The lowest amount of, for a post that we've seen, about $200. The highest amount for one post, $8,000. We've had scenarios where one creator was paid $30,000. That happened twice for one campaign. Now there was multi channel, there was like, you have to come to an event, you have to do two LinkedIn posts and you have to do one newsletter, for example, $30,000. So I think like, it's up to the creator to decide what their worth is and how much they want to charge. But you also need a bit of guidance. You don't want to overestimate. And I would say, Danielle, for most part, like the B2B creators, overestimate what they're worth. And they're probably charging a little bit or expecting to charge a little bit too much at the beginning, where my recommendation is charge enough that you're not undercharging yourself. I never think that's a good idea. But also make it attractive to the brand and make it maybe more long term. So when somebody reaches out to you and says, hey, I want to pay you to do one post on LinkedIn for $700, you say, no, I only do five posts, it's $3,000. And then you've built a relationship over time that then they can start to double down. Because a lot of brands, Daniel, are doing this for the first time. They're just trying it out. They're allocating budget and they're trying to figure out what's working. Don't immediately stop them in their tracks by overcharging at the beginning and then not delivering the results. The better plan is to get into the room, do a few partnerships with them, a few pieces of content, and then build that relationship. Because if you can prove revenue, which is what we, we can talk about, you become really valuable to them and they will pay you a lot more money. Because our ultimate goal is that you have an army. These brands are having an army of 100 creators creating content, consistently bringing their business to the top of the news feeds and driving a lot of revenue. And once we unlock that revenue, you know, these brands will, will pay you a lot of money. They just want to make sure that it works to begin with.
- [21:43]
B
That's always the thing. I, I've done influencer marketing for my own brand since 10, 12 years ago. And the question is always like, what will it get to me as the brand and company? And I think a lot of companies, unless you're like a very large corporation, obviously it's different if you're, you know, depending on your size, the budgets, you understand, like, sometimes it's just brand awareness, sometimes you need certain results. So what type of results are you seeing from the brand's perspective?
- [22:13]
C
So I always believe, Daniel, that if we were able to make influencer marketing in B2B performance based, it will unlock 100x the budget. Because these brands are spending a fortune on paid ads on LinkedIn, on Google, on Facebook, and across all social channels. And they're competing on keywords that's now saturated and it's getting a worse return on investment. So they have millions and I speak with like webflow, zoominfo, build a comm, and I'll say like, how much are you spending a month? And they're like $5 million on paid ads. I'm like, oh my God, $5 million in paid ads. If we could just take 10% of that, you're talking 500,000amonth to creators. I guarantee you I can get a better return on investment than what you're getting today. So what we typically say with influencers and you know when they're standing these programs up is have the usual attribution systems in place, right? Track website traffic, demo signups, put self reported demo links, use UTM links per creators. So custom UTM links to show conversion, tracking and a handful of other things that we can talk about. But what really moves the needle is when you start to track who's engaging on that content. So we are posting content across 100 creators every single week. Let's say there are people that are engaging on that content, liking commenting, reacting, that are potential ICP. Now, 80% of the people that engage on LinkedIn are not your ideal customer profile. It's probably rubbish, but 20% of them probably are. And we're now driving leads because in B2B, the journey isn't I see something on Instagram, I click the link and I buy the sunglasses. They're seeing something in a newsfeed, they're reading it in a newsletter, and then they're making a decision two months, three months later. So the brand needs to take one a longer view of what revenue attribution and how to measure it. Like let's take it three to six months. Let's not just post three posts and hope that it drives revenue. But then you also need to track who's engaging on the content and prove that those engagements are actually becoming revenue. And that's the big unlock that we unlocked about two months ago. Three months ago, where we started to track everyone engaging on the content. And we were able to prove that people interacting on content drove revenue. And that's really powerful.
- [24:21]
B
Well, it sounds like there could be billions of dollars. I know the creator economy is like billions of dollars outside of LinkedIn, so why not? LinkedIn seems to be the place you got me inspired. I'm going to become a full time LinkedIn creator and I'm gonna document on LinkedIn becoming a full time. No, this is great, man. I'm like, I'm really excited. I feel like the time like I've been, I've been on LinkedIn for a long Time I've been watching it, it's really been my, my favorite place to hang out. I feel like as, as time goes on, I'd say LinkedIn and YouTube. Right now, LinkedIn and YouTube are my two favorite places where I put a lot of my energy. Every other social platform to me is very toxic. It makes me, it gives me anxiety and I feel like it's just like people's opinions. I don't want to read about, about whatever is happening in the world that terrible. And I'm just like, I need to go to a safe place. So I feel like LinkedIn right now is my safe place.
- [25:24]
C
You sound like one of our customers, right? They actually say the same thing. They say like, we care about LinkedIn, we care about YouTube. Sometimes they say newsletters or Twitter, but those are Twitter specifically. A bit of a cesspool. We actually have influencers across every Twitter channel. So LinkedIn, newsletters, podcasts, YouTube, Twitter, even some Instagram and TikTok. And so we do cater for brands that want to go wider with lots of social channels. I say our core bread and butter is LinkedIn. Now, you might not get as many engagements on LinkedIn or as much impressions or much reaches like a TikTok video, but it is your ICP and you're able to identify those people that are engaging on the content. So, yeah, it's a, it's a fun place to be.
- [26:01]
B
I don't see how TikTok converts much to anything. I don't know like it because I think are your attention is so fast, you know, I mean, like, I don't think we spend enough attention really looking at or like paying attention to what something is. Although I just bought.
- [26:15]
C
Let me leave it with one thought, right, which is the big bet that we're making. I'm two years into building this business. We've raised $3.2 million. We're working with some of the biggest companies in the world. We're keeping the team really, really lean. The marketplace is humming. But the big mat I'm constantly like a shit, I'm a billionaire. And then I'm like, oh, this is going to fall to pieces, is going to explode. And so the big bet that we're making is that every single B2B company can have a creator program. They might not think that people create content about their niche, but they can and they do. And so we think just like every company has a CRM, HubSpot or Salesforce, every company will have a software that powers their creator program and that will be Limelight. That is our ultimate goal. We think if we can execute on that strategy, it's going to be amazing. Because the thing is, Daniel, every single when people come to us, they say, I saw my competitor doing this. I need to do it myself. And so it becomes this natural, like I'm seeing this motion at work for other people. They're spending money on this. Where do I get started? And they either go to agencies or software. And we want to be the software that powers the whole industry.
- [27:18]
B
Limelight. I believe in it. I'm on it every other day, seeking information about what brands are working, what are they doing. So how does somebody sign up for Limelight? And then also, how does a brand sign up?
- [27:31]
C
So it's free for creators. Go to limelight hq.com we do not charge any transaction fees. All the money that a brand says to you goes directly to you, which isn't the same for some other platforms and any brand. And just go to limelight hq.com and sign up for a demo and they'll meet with me, most likely, as long as they're qualified and they have budget to spend. And yeah, follow me on LinkedIn. I post content every day. It's a little cringy, but I'm enjoying it.
- [27:56]
B
Well, David, you reached out to me at one point and you said, I have a brand that wants to work with you. I went on Limelight. Turns out there was a brand that wanted to work with me and that was the first time anyone's ever paid me for something on LinkedIn. So I appreciate you, by the way, and I really see Limelight as a future unicorn. So thank you for all that you do to help people make money and you help brands spend money wisely.
- [28:20]
C
Thank you for having me.
- [28:22]
A
The Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports right now. The NBA is heating up, March Madness is here, and MLB is almost back. Every day there's a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment you've got to see for yourself. That's why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it's about staying connected to my sports. I can follow the teams I care about, get real time scores, breaking news and highlights all in one place. Download the Bleacher Report app today so you never miss a moment.
- [28:51]
D
Hey, I'm Josh Spiegel, host of the podcast Lunatic in the Newsroom. If you enjoy journalism that drifts into mild panic, wild overthinking, and a guaranteed nervous breakdown, Lunatic in the Newsroom is for you.
- [29:04]
A
You.
- [29:04]
D
It's news like you've never heard before. The only newsroom with a panic button. You'll laugh, you'll cry and gasp in horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news, it's emotionally unstable lunatic in the newsroom. Listen today,
- [29:22]
B
if you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.