← Founder's Story
Founder's Story
What 3 Generations Taught Me About Building a Century-Old Company | Ep 270 with with Jonathan Kaufman Iger Founder of Sage
00:33:57
In this episode of Founder’s Story, Daniel Robbins interviews Jonathan Kaufman Iger, President & CEO of Sage, a 101-year-old New York real estate company founded by his great-grandfather. Jonathan reveals the secret to Sage’s century-long survival: adapting to macroeconomic shifts, anticipating where the “puck” is going, and reimagining office spaces for modern needs. He discusses why predictions of the “death of offices” were overblown, how hospitality and curated experiences—not just amenities—are reshaping the future of workspaces, and what it means to steward a multi-generational company in an era focused on exits and fast wins. With stories spanning Ellis Island to today’s hybrid work world, Jonathan shows how Sage blends legacy with innovation to redefine what it means to work, live, and thrive in New York City’s skyline.
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- [00:00]
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Daniel (Podcast Host)
Today's episode is sponsored by Pipedrive, the number one CRM tool for small to medium businesses. I'm excited to share more about them later in the episode. Most companies I think die. It's like 90% die at the 10 year mark.
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
We're celebrating our centennial, technically 101 years. I think the first part to longevity is leadership and vision. What William was so successful in doing within the field of commercial real estate was really seeing what was going on on a macro level, whether societal, macroeconomic, and really understand how that would have an impact on the real estate business.
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Daniel (Podcast Host)
Like a company to be around for a hundred years has to mean that they're doing something right.
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Wayne Gretzky, you know, saying to, you know, skate to where the puck's gonna be and not, not, not where the puck is. And I think that's a large portion of, of our success against companies who, who haven't been around more than 10 years, let alone.
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Daniel (Podcast Host)
So Jonathan, a few things that have really been fascinating about your company and about everything that's been happening when it comes to commercial real estate in New York. Because we had, maybe a year ago we had Ryan Sirhan on actually to talk about his experience in New York City real estate from the residential side. So I'm really interested to hear about the commercial side of what's been happening in New York. But also the fact that Sage has been around for over 100 or has been around for 100 years. Like a company to be around for a hundred years has to mean that they're doing something right. I don't know what the stats are now, but it's like most companies I think die, it's like 90% die at the 10 year mark. They never, they will never make it that long. So for you, what has kept Sage around this, this for the hundred years?
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
It's a great question, Daniel. I didn't know that stat.
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Daniel (Podcast Host)
Wow.
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Well, what percentage normally after 10 years.
- [04:15]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
I think it's like nine. Again, don't quote me, but I believe the last time I, I heard it was like 90% of companies die before 10 years.
- [04:26]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Wow. Okay. Yeah, we're celebrating our centennial. Technically 101 years. Company was founded by my great grandfather William Kaufman in 1924. I think the first part to longevity is leadership and vision. What William was so successful in doing within the field of commercial real estate was really seeing what was going on on a macro level, whether societal, macroeconomic and really understand how that would have an impact on the, the real estate business. So whether that's in the 1930s and the Federal Housing Authority being created and having FHA and we were already developing residential, but really leaning into single lot family homes in the tri state region and taking advantage of FHA loans post World War II. When his two sons joined the business, one of the things he saw was the advent of the GI Bill. And he believed that the GI Bill was going to create the world's most educated workforce that we've ever seen. And that's exactly what happened. And how as a real estate owner, investor, developer, can he take advantage of that within the field? Those people are going to need A place to work. So it wasn't really until Post World War II, late 1940s, we become more centered around office investment. And by then the early 1950s, ground up office development in New York City. And so I think our longevity, first and foremost against so many other companies is it's not having the initial conviction. The initial conviction can be, hey, I think now's the time to go into real estate or invest in this asset class, right? But it's understanding that, you know, you may be invested in real estate as an asset class, but moving between asset classes within real estate, depending on what's going on on a macroeconomic, on a societal level. And his two sons were very similar in seeing what was going on. And we expanded internationally at the right time and landed throughout the UK in the 1990s, we sold off certain asset classes like land at the right time. So I think right there's kind of that Wayne Gretzky, you know, saying to, you know, skate to where the puck's going to be and not, not, not where the puck is. And I think that's a large portion of of our success against companies who, who haven't been around more than 10 years, let alone 100 time.
- [07:28]
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Three employees and two work trucks.
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
They sure are.
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Shockingly low, huh?
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Daniel (Podcast Host)
Do you get it?
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
I got it.
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- [09:18]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
All right, I'll stop.
- [09:19]
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Daniel (Podcast Host)
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- [11:40]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
I agree. I think today we're not focused on it. I think. Right. You know, our, our culture in America is, you know, very much the entre entrepreneurial startup culture. I think we're inundated on Instagram and TikTok and Fast Company and Inc. And the people who are on the COVID of those magazines who are posting are very much about building businesses and being entrepreneurial. But so much of it is about the exit, the ipo, the VC world that's been created. I think probably if we look at America's culture though leading up to the last 20 years or so and maybe there was a focus on just making money, finance, 80s and 90s kind of culture. But I think if you really look back on a cult, on a, on a country that has been built up by immigrants, I think historically that that is the culture that, that, that we had. And I don't know enough if we've entirely lost it. But you know, my, my family, you know, came through through Ellis island in the nineteen teens and built businesses. One of them being William Kaufman Organization Sage. And I think very much it was important to William when his two sons after serving in World War II came back that very quickly that they entered the business. And it was very important to him, as it's been explained to me, to really run the business together. But I agree, I think thinking about it, we've, we've, we've lost something to, to that extent. I still think it's, it's there very much, but maybe we need a little bit more of it.
- [13:40]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
I automatically think of like Walmart, like the Waltons, you know, is there a certain level of pressure that you have to go through knowing it's gone to where it is a hundred years. So obviously it needs to continue for another 100 plus years. Does that, does that bring apart a certain pressure to you?
- [14:06]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Yeah, I don't, I don't know if I've set the goal to make sure that there's a foundation for another 100 years. The, the pressure is, has existed. It's probably exacerbated more recently obviously with, with COVID and hybrid work and how that's impacted commercial real estate. And that's what our focus has been over the last 30 plus years of our 101 year company. When I joined the business in 2010, my grandfather asked me to join. It took me about a month to, to accept the offer, give or take. And, and part of that hesitancy was that at that time the company was 85 years old. And I did understand both the honor of being asked to come in, but the pressure associated, where it really became apparent was when my grandfather got sick. He was still running the company when I came and had the amazing privilege to work and really learned from him for a number of years. It's when he got sick and I spent a tremendous amount of time in the hospital with him. And we would talk about leases that we're executing, right? That could be 10, 15 years out. And both of us not saying it, but being conscious that he's not going to be here probably for necessarily the first five years of the lease, let alone the entire tenure of, of the lease. And I think that's when I really started to understand, although I always knew I was making a lifelong commitment when coming to work for a family company because like we just talked about there, there is no ultimate exit for us. Right? The, the idea is for other family members and next generation to be involved. At some level, I think I see it less as obviously it is pressure and pressure can be a good thing, but I think viewing it more as a responsibility and, and as an honor are probably the way that I think about it more. Then you start to throw in Covid and some other things and the pressure builds a little bit.
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Daniel (Podcast Host)
No, I, I, that's a fair, fascinating story. The fact that you got to spend time with him and learn from him. I mean, I was just talking to someone today about Burkshire Hathway. Like, you know, he's been doing like 90 something years old, man, the, the amount of wisdom that we get, which I think is almost sad, right? Like we, we didn't have a lot of recordings like now, obviously, maybe in 50 years somebody could watch this interview and, and then they could learn about you. But like, you know, 50 years ago there wasn't a lot of recordings obviously even 20 years ago, 15, 20 years ago. So there's so much knowledge and wisdom that's been lost that I would like to, I'd like to learn. So let's dig in about the New York, about how the, the market is on this office commercial side. I think some might, some people might say is it dead? Will it ever return? Do you think they've gotten this completely wrong?
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Yes, I think that was a, I wouldn't call it a legitimate question. Back in 2021, 20, 22, I don't think anyone was sitting there saying no one's going to work in an office building again. Right. What this really boils down to at the heart of it is this is economics 101, this is supply and demand, right? And so if you're talking about a New York office market, depending on how you're defining office as a category, it's a 400 to 500 million square foot market. So I think when people were writing those headlines for articles and on Squawkbox and everywhere else, no one was actually quantifying saying, hey, I think offices aren't going to exist anymore. Right. But from a supply demand, if you have a 500 million square foot market and the demand is for 400 million square feet, right. That will create over time a 20% vacancy. And markets have shown that, you know, 20% vacancy will have a significant impact on rental rates and concession packages, thereby net effective rents and, and overall values for a property. Historically, the New York City and specifically Manhattan market has averaged a little over 10% vacancy, but that's also including sublet vacancy as well. So I think those were really alarmist headlines. You know, early on the recovery, we saw true flight to quality, brand new ground up development. Not simply skating by or doing okay. They were raising their rents 20, 30, 40%. Right. So that's a very strong market. And in our business what we've typically seen is trickle down effect, right. Where the market starts to rebound with the best product and then you get to like this class A product and A minus and B plus and, and that's what we're really seeing. So I think over the next couple years, as square footage does come off for resi conversions, we see other alternate uses for some of the older office stock. And what people forget is New York City office stock has the oldest average age of any comparable gateway city. Right. Compare us to London, even compare us to Paris, particularly comparison to any gateway Asian city, Tokyo, Shanghai. A lot of this product needs to be recycled and that's what we're seeing. And as, as that has been occurring, will continue to occur. We're seeing at specific asset classes within commercial real estate, not just stabilization, but actually an increase in both gross and net effective rents.
- [20:52]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
Well, that's exciting. I mean like you're saying New York is like near every, anyone in the world knows New York. Like if you go anywhere that I've been, I've been every continent and I mentioned New York City, everybody knows New York City, which I think is always good thing and every time I go, it seems very busy. So people are still moving there, they're going there. I'm curious about amenities. I think we don't always think of commercial space as having amenities, but I believe that you said, or you've talked around hospitality, which is the real secret to winning in the future of office space.
- [21:33]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Yeah, it's. Look, a hospitality centric approach is part of Sage's DNA. My great uncle, who was past president of Sage in the late 1960s, traveled through Europe. I think it was the first time he had been back since being over there for World War II. And when he came back, he introduced at the heart of. Heart of what he had experienced, which was now known as the European style concierge system within our commercial properties, now more than ever. And I think too often people are focused on the amenities, the physical amenities in what's being provided. Right. We've had this amenities arms race, which we're starting to see peter out. Doesn't mean amenities aren't petering out, but this, this crazy amenities arms race of lessons, all golf simulators and race car simulators and nap pod rooms and cold plunge tanks. Like, to me, that's most of that's crazy. And even for those who take it a step further in a good way, right? And they think about, hey, let's, let's make sure we know how to greet our, our tenants when they come into the building. To us, that's still not taking it as far as it needs to be. And so for us, rather than talk about amenities and even services to a certain, what we focus on is experience, right? And across our property, it becomes known as the Sage experience. What does it feel like to be in a Sage property?
- [23:18]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
Right.
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
What's the overall experience to be in a Sage in a Sage property? And amenities play a key part of that. But I've been saying we've been building out amenities spaces in commercial office buildings since 2013. One of the first companies to really do it in, in New York City. We were definitely one of the first to, to do it with, you know, private outdoor space for the entire tenancy. And even early on then I remember, you know, effectively quoting Field of Dreams, you know, and telling people that it's not Field of Dreams. This is not. If you build it, they will come. You need to build it and you need to program it. And that's really at the heart of what we do. I think that's at the heart of differentiating your product. And I think that is very much the future of commercial Real estate, you can only have so much square footage of brand new development and what happens to brand new development over time? After 10, 15, 20 years and again we've been around for 100. A lot of the buildings we've owned, we developed, we've owned them for 60 plus years. I would very much like and expect for us to own and manage them for another 60 years. So we think longer term, you know, further out and, and in order to be successful there, you have to provide a cohesive experience for your customer and that's really what, what we focus on.
- [24:51]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
I can appreciate that. I'm also in the hospitality space, not in anything commercial but more residential side and I find I like to visit other places. For example, like the Amman properties is, you know, I'm on Gary in Utah. It's like one of the best experiences I've ever had and I like to learn and then take that back to the place that we have. But I'm always really big on that piece. It's not like you're saying for me it's always not the amenities per se, like I've been to a million spas and such, it's how warm do they make me feel. The personal level experience, it's like the smallest of details that I remember. I don't really remember a lot of things. I don't even know if I remember the food but like the amount. When I went to Amangiri, I remember the chef was like, look, forget the menu, I'll make you anything you want. And that really stood out to me. I don't even remember if the food was good. I just remember that. But when you travel around, I imagine you must do the same thing. Do you, as you travel and you have these experiences, are you taking pieces like your great uncle or, or actually seeing things kind of from the outside like oh, I don't like this or I like this.
- [26:06]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Yeah. Much the chagrin of my now wife who years pass, now I have kids. It looks a little bit different. The camera roll is all, all of them. But before that when we would travel just the two of us and you'd look at our photo roll, it could be a close up shot of some corner retail window. Not even the actual retail itself, but like the window. And that was interesting in how they did that. Constantly writing down notes. Used to carry around a little notepad and you walk into my room late at night or in the hotel room, it's crumpled up. I've now transferred to the computer. I've slacked it to some Say hey, let's, let's explore this idea. I think for everybody, whether you're in a CEO position or just starting out in a like having the world inform you and being able to translate experiences, services, offerings in other industries and bring it to your own. And I think probably that's unbelievably important within any hospitality driven field in which offices is, is now one of those. I was down in Austin, Texas years ago.
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Carvana Advertiser
And.
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Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Crazy storms and I remember leaving the lobby of the hotel we were staying at. It wasn't a five star hotel and they had put out a number of umbrellas that you could grab right to use gratis free. The thought was great, the execution was terrible because within 20ft of leaving the hotel the winds were so strong. It was those flimsy $5 pretty crappy umbrellas. The thing literally ripped off, right. My wife and I got completely soaked, ran back to 20ft. It was like a monsoon. But I was like, I love this idea. It just needs to be executed on better and within a couple months and we still have the program running today that anytime it looks like it's going to rain or that it has started to rain, we have Sage branded umbrellas that are super strength. Like you know, you could use this in a hurricane type umbrella that tenants can, and our Sage members can, can grab as they come come in and out of the building that day. I think overall, whether it's reading through a magazine, a book, a conversation, what we strive to do, and you said it so well, Daniel. There's a, there's a pop popular quote. I think it's typically attributed to Danny Meyer, but it was actually said by his partner at the original Union Square Cafe. I'm sorry, Gramercy Tavern, Tom Colicchio. And, and he's famous for saying people come to the restaurant for the food, they come back for the experience. Particularly in New York. But in any city you have the option to eat at 400, 500 great restaurants. You're typically not going back because you fell in love with that chicken dish and you're, you're not going back necessarily because the service was amazing. You're going back because you like the way the experience of eating, socializing, being in that restaurant made you feel. And, and the way a good operator achieves that is you are constantly looking at every single touch point from the moment that customer walks in. And for really good operators, before they walk in, like the Amman, all the way through that experience and you think about every touch point. What is it like to open up the door to enter the restaurant. What is it like to walk from the door to the maitre d station? Right. If they're going to ask to take your coats or umbrella, what is that experience? Like, where's the placement of the bar? And if you have to wait to be seated, do you need to get through a pack of 30 people to wait at the bar until they come get you for the table? Like, most people, don't think about all of these tiny little elements, and each one is equally important because none of them make us want to come back, you know, to the restaurant. But one of those can make us not want to go back. Right. You got to be batting a thousand when you have competition.
- [31:04]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
And.
- [31:06]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
And so that's got to be the approach. And so much that is being formed of your experience day to day outside of an office building so that you can elevate that experience inside an office building at every customer touch point.
- [31:22]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
That reminds me, I went to Per Se and Thomas Keller came around the corner, and I've done events at his restaurant in. In San Francisco. So I went up to. I went up to the waitress and I said, hey, I really would like to meet him. He was going really quickly, I think, because he didn't want people to stop him. I was like, I really want to meet him because we've done events at his restaurant in San Francisco. So she said she came back in like five minutes. She's like, okay, come back into the kitchen. So my wife went back in the kitchen, and we got to spend time with him. We actually created a whole menu at this business that we had because of. Of him. He let me explain it to him. He let us take pictures. Like, he actually spent a good, like, 10, 15 minutes with us, which I was shocked, right? Because I know he's just super busy. He was only there for this event that they were having.
- [32:13]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Sure.
- [32:14]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
And that really stood, like you're saying, that really stood out to me. I was like, wow, you know what? You are totally right on that. It's really these moments, but I don't think a lot of people get it. I think it's hard for people to understand or maybe it's also hard to execute. But I love, I love what you said around the umbrellas. It's not just having the umbrella. It's having an umbrella, though, that is not going to actually give you a bad experience. But my final question is this. And I'm having a great time, by the way. I love this too.
- [32:43]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Thank you.
- [32:45]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
If you can redesign the entire New York City skyline for the next 50 years. What would you do differently?
- [32:55]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
I'm. I'm hoping I can be like my great grandfather or my grandfather and, and his brother and, and maybe just. But if I could reimagine Manhattan skyline and this is completely apolitical are our zoning requirements which typically come from a good place, right? Do not meet the needs of the future for our city. One of the great keys to unlocking what I think can make New York and so many other cities even more vibrant, even more livable is not just allowing but also I'm not saying let's get subsidies, but supporting true mixed use use properties, right? Ideally in so many ways you should be mixing an office building and a residential building, right? It's actually good for the environment. Think about in a residential building where the peak water usage is, right? It's before you go to work, right? It's after you come home from work in an office building. Think about when peak office water usage is, right? It's nine to five, you know. And you can design unbelievably more efficient properties, right? Because of the way that we work in an office building, the way we live in, in a residential building. You layer in hotels into that. Not every building can be residential, hotel, office, right? But you start to allow for a much greater mix. You're going to see much more interesting buildings. You're going to see buildings that are much more efficient across the board. You're going to find buildings that are much more enjoyable to be a part of. You're going to find actually the business models work much better, right? If I combine a residential building in New York City and an office building today and you're sharing those amenities, that is much more economical both for the office user, the resident and the property owner that it being split apart. And I'm not saying that you should live in the building you work in, right? But having the true mixed use development in New York City would transform the skyline. It would transform the city. I'd love to see it. I've explored the idea with architects just conceptually before. I think it's be a long or a long ways away, but we'll get there eventually.
- [36:06]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
No, that's fascinating. I didn't even think about like what even is the business model of a office building besides just rent. But you have. It sounds like you can do other things, have a lot of things potentially if this is something that is allowed or allowed at the ability that you would need it to be. But if people want to get in touch with you. They want to find out more information about Sage, obviously want to follow along 101. I mean that it's, it's insane. When I saw this, I'm like, wait a minute, is this, is this correct or is this like a typo? But over 101 years, that's crazy. But how can they do so.
- [36:40]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Yeah, our website, sage realty.com we're also on Instagram, sage experience and LinkedIn, which is sage Realty as well.
- [36:53]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
Probably one of the oldest companies on Linked on Instagram, I imagine one of the oldest companies on social media, at least in the US I would think. One of them.
- [37:02]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Probably one of them. Yeah. Yeah. Not the longest that we've been on Instagram, but definitely one of the oldest companies on Instagram.
- [37:10]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
I think that's, that's fascinating. That, that is amazing. And obviously, you know, you're there to, to continue the legacy. And I imagine the great thing about having, you know, generations and generations is they keep, they keep the business up to, up to the technology, like social media, like all these things that maybe other generations wouldn't even think about. But Jonathan, this has been amazing. Congratulations on hitting over a hundred years. I can't wait if you and I chat again in 50 years, if I'm still alive, I'll be really fascinating. But at least we can reference this interview 50 years prior. But this has been great. And thanks for joining us on Foundry story.
- [37:50]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Thanks Daniel, for having me and allowing us to share our centennial with you and your listeners and viewers.
- [37:58]
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- [38:28]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
Oh, the car from Carvana's here. Well, will you look at that. It's exactly what I ordered. Like, precisely.
- [38:37]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
It would be crazy if there were any catches.
- [38:40]
Jonathan Kaufman (Sage Realty Representative)
But there aren't, right?
- [38:42]
Carvana Advertiser
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- [38:50]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
Buy your car today with Carvana.
- [38:53]
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- [38:57]
Daniel (Podcast Host)
Com.