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Why We Have All Become "Sick, Stupid & Angry." | Ep 297 with Dr. Robert Lustig
00:28:18
In this episode of Founder’s Story, Dr. Robert Lustig argues that the global rise in chronic disease, mental illness, and social breakdown all trace back to a single source: a dysregulated amygdala driven by dopamine, cortisol, ultra processed food, and modern technology. This conversation reframes depression, addiction, and societal conflict not as isolated problems, but as symptoms of a deeper neurological crisis—and outlines what it will take to restore human resilience.
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. So it's really great to have you today, Robert. Dr. Robert Lustig. You said your name in German and now I keep wanting to say it, but I've heard, I've watched you so many times, you've had incredible interviews across many different platforms and something that stood out because it is one of the things that I am very passionate about. And this is the systemic problem that we have with mental health. A crisis, as you would say, across the world. If people, maybe there's some people that haven't listened to you before and they don't know what is this crisis that's happening, can you explain it?
- [00:42]
B
Well, so Daniel, I think it's pretty self evident that the entire world is experiencing a systemic health crisis. Type 2 diabetes, heart disease, cancer, dementia, also experiencing a mental health crisis, depression, ptsd, addiction. And we're also experiencing a societal health crisis. Cyberbullying, othering, war. The question is, are these related or just coincidental? And if they're related, if they're related through what mechanism? That's the question. Because we can spend our money on trying to treat the systemic health crisis. We have done a really lousy job of spending that money, and we've gotten nowhere. And it's only getting worse. We can spend money on the mental health crisis, and it's only gotten worse. And we can spend money on the societal health crisis, and it's only gotten worse. And the bottom line is it seems like everything's going to hell in a handbasket all around the world, all at the same time. And I would argue that the reason that this has occurred is because we actually haven't even remotely addressed the real problem. And the question is, what ties all of these three things together? And the answer is one area of the brain, one area of the brain, a dysfunction of the fear center of the brain known as the amygdala. Now, once upon a time, Daniel, when you were three years old, you put your hand on a hot stove and you went, well, I'm never doing that again. Okay, you remember that? Everybody remembers that, right? Well, what that was, was that was a noxious stimulus that went to your amygdala, ended up generating what we call negative reinforcement. You then learned never to do that again. Today, when kids do that, instead of generating an adaptive negative reinforcement response, what you instead see is chronic toxic stress. You see kids melt down. You see kids basically not being able to handle the stimulus. And we see this throughout all walks of life, this notion that we have lost our stress resilience in the process. We have gotten sick, we have gotten stupid, and we have gotten angry. And when those individual responses become conglomerate over an entire population, over an entire society, you end up with the societal health problems that we have today, which ultimately lead to the planetary health problems as well. So I would argue that it is this problem in our amygdala that has actually generated these issues. And the question is, well, what then happened to our amygdala? It turns out there are four breaks on the amygdala. Four things that basically tell the amygdala calm down. And all four of them are breaking at the same time for different reasons through different mechanisms. But all four are currently dysfunctional. And that's why our amygdala is running hog wild. Basically, it's all amygdala all, all the time. And I can prove it. The incidence of depression has tripled. The incidence of obsessive compulsive disorder, which is amygdala override, has basically gone up like 10 times in the last 20 years. Okay. That is your amygdala on fire. And so the question is, what happened to the amygdala? And I'm writing a book about it right now with my colleague, Dr. Alyssa Epel here at UCSF. Okay. Book will be titled the Freeing the Hostage Brain. Because that's what we have. We have a hostage brain. We have a hostage situation where our brain is actually being held hostage by our amygdala because the brakes on the amygdala have basically failed. Okay, so what are the brakes? There are four of them. So imagine you have a car, and car has four wheels and each wheel has a brake. Let's say you have four brakes. What if one brake fails? You gonna stop? Yeah. Rough ride, but you'll stop. Get it fixed. What if two brakes fail? You're gonna stop eventually. You're gonna do any damage? Depends which two. If there are two in the front, you're going to capsize. If you're two in the back, you'll glide to a stop. What if they're on either side of the car? You're going to do a 360, you're going to stop. Eventually, you're going to do damage? Maybe. What if three brakes fail? You're going to fishtail, you're going to land on your head, you're going to stop. Eventually. You're going to do any damage? Probably. What if all four breaks fail at the exact same time? Then you are over the precipice and into the abyss. Like the last scene from Thelma And Louise, that's what we have. We are over the precipice and into the abyss. Because all four breaks on the amygdala are failing all at the same time. Okay, so what are the four breaks? Reasoning, prefrontal cortex, memory, hippocampus, afferent, vagus, interoception, intuition, gut feelings, and finally, oxytocin safety. Each one of those is failing, but for different reasons. But they all have. All the reasons for failing have to do with what has happened to our environment over the last 50 years. And I can sum up what's happening in the brain to lead to these dysfunctions with two concepts. Dopamine and cortisol. Cortisol, the fear hormone, the stress hormone, the I'm over exhausted hormone, and dopamine, the I'm in pain and I need pleasure neurotransmitter. So when you're in pain, the only thing you can do is mollify it. And we mollify it through all sorts of methods. Mechanisms like cocaine, heroin, nicotine, alcohol, sugar, or shopping, gambling, Internet gaming, social media, pornography. But you know what? We also mollify it with othering. We mollify it with subjugation.
- [08:29]
A
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- [09:41]
B
We mollify it with war. And so you can see that this combination of dopamine and cortisol has led us into a very, very nasty place and it's basically out of control and we need to do something about it.
- [10:02]
A
So would you say then, and thank you for sharing this, by the way. I was diagnosed with OCD when I was 12, so no, I mean I, I appreciate, I'm, I'm learning some. I mean, I'm 42 right now, so.
- [10:15]
B
I'm learning it runs through my wife's family non stop.
- [10:19]
A
So I'm learning. No, I've learned a lot. I learned more than I have the 30 years in this last, you know, 10 minute conversation. Would you say though? Because I'm very conflicted, I'm very conflicted around the pros and cons of social media and technology as a whole. Would you say then it's, it's almost like the diet and technology, AKA social media in this sense. Are, is there any positives? Is it only negative?
- [10:48]
B
Well, so number one, technology is a tool, okay? Tools can be used for good, they can be used for bad. Okay? Nuclear power can run a nuclear reactor, can run a nuclear bomb. A hammer, hammer can hammer a nail, it can hammer a skull. Depends on who's using it. Okay? There's nothing inherent about the tool that's negative. What's inherent is the person using the tool. That's where the negativity is. Okay? So I have nothing against technology per se. I have something against using technology for evil and for, you know, shall we say for profit as opposed to for education, information and helping people. That's what I have a problem with. But that's what we have unfortunately. And AI is just basically, you know, technology on steroids. So it's gonna make it even worse. And the reason is because the profit, it's all about the profit and that's the dopamine. So that's one of the problems.
- [12:04]
A
What happens, Because I've been studying a lot about this and listening and I've heard there's a lot of issues, younger people now, I mean, if, if I can pick up my phone and release dopamine, does that mean I don't want to have person to person interactions? Because maybe that's how I released dopamine before. Like, what do you think is the long term implications of, of the people now that are growing up with these technologies as we're seeing them? Because the ability to get everything, to get these feelings of Sadness and happiness and anger and everything by just picking up your phone.
- [12:39]
B
Well, once upon a time, we had this thing called the public square. And you could go to the public square and you could say whatever you wanted because it was a public square, but everybody knew who said it, and you would have to suffer the consequences of what you said. And so your prefrontal cortex reigned you in. You reasoned yourself out of making trouble because your brain worked, right? Your prefrontal cortex basically kept your dopamine in check, and it also kept your cortisol in check. We've lost that capability. And social media is one of the reasons we have lost it. Not the only reason, but it's the main one, okay? And it's why depression has gone up since 2007. OCD has gone up since 2007, since the introduction of the iPhone, okay? And you can plot it. You can see the depression, you can see the suicides going up at the same time with the advent of the iPhone. So there's no question that social media is basically giving your brain the notion that it can do whatever the hell it wants. And one of the reasons is, you know, anonymity. You know, you can be online with a. With a moniker instead of yourself, and no one knows who it is. And so you feel completely empowered to basically take your prefrontal cortex offline as an example. Now, you mentioned food. Food's a big problem too, because one of the things that keeps your amygdala in check is serotonin. And serotonin comes from the Afron vagus nerve. Except the afron vagus nerve is not working. That's why intuition is down in the sewer right now, because that's one of the ways serotonin manifests itself. But why do we have such low serotonin? Because we're eating ultra processed food. Because tryptophan, the precursor to serotonin, is the rarest amino acid. And virtually no foods that are ultra processed have very much tryptophan in them. So we're all pretty much serotonin deficient as well. Plus, if you have metabolic syndrome, which is very common in people who eat ultra processed food, your liver takes that tryptophan, and instead of allowing it to reach the brain to be turned into serotonin, turns it into another molecule called kyurenine, which then becomes quinolinic acid, which is actually a neurotoxin. So you can basically turn this amino acid, tryptophan, into something that helps your brain, or you can turn it into something that hurts your Brain all dependent on what you ate. So we have drugs, we have technology, we have ultra processed food, we have sleep deprivation. We have basically created the environment where our amygdala is allowed to run hog wild. And that I think is the basis for all of these systemic mental and societal health issues. And the problem is we're not going to be able to solve it until we solve that.
- [16:13]
A
Sounds like the perfect storm. It's all of these things. It's almost like, you know, people talk about the opportunities of AI. It's like all these technologies, great things coming together that can solve world problems. At the same time, you have all these things coming together to create massive world problems.
- [16:31]
B
They could solve world problems if they were in the right hands. They're not because it's all about the profit.
- [16:40]
A
So where do we, where do we go from here? Is there? And you got me thinking, by the way, I travel a lot to Southeast Asia and the places I go, the food and the diet is quite bad and it's a lot of processed foods. And I've seen this in other countries as well, where they add a lot of sugar. They, they add things that don't really need to be in something. And it's quite sad. I'm seeing like massive diabetes, cancer, heart disease. It, it's, it's really, it's quite sad in these places. So with all of these things, is there something that we can do to reset ourselves or try and get back on track?
- [17:19]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you can't get back on track if you don't know what the track is. You cannot solve a problem if you don't know what the problem is. Which is why we're writing a book about it, to explain that there are many things that you can do to do to get back on track. Bottom line is we've got to get the cortisol down, we've got to get the dopamine down, we've got to get the serotonin up. Those are the three things that have to happen. Now how do you do that? Well, number one, we are social beings. We thrive on connection. Connection drives serotonin. Problem is we don't have connection. We have this thing called the Internet. You and I are not connecting, okay? We are looking at each other, but we are not connecting. And the reason is because we're not in each other's presence, okay? It's eye to eye. And it doesn't work through the, through the Internet, okay? Does not work for, through, through Facebook. There is no such thing as digital connection. There Is something called digital connectivity, but not digital connection, because connection is interpersonal. But we've lost that. We've lost that because of our technology. So basically, resuming our social nature. That's a good place to start. Okay, we've got to get the dopamine down. How do you get the dopamine down? Well, you have to have purpose. And the purpose can't be profit. The purpose has to be purpose. Purpose has to be helping others as opposed to helping yourself. Okay, what is the difference between pleasure and happiness? Any idea? I'll tell you. There are seven differences, okay? People think they're the same thing. They are not, not even remotely pleasure. Number one, Pleasure is short lived, like a meal. Happiness is long lived, like a lifetime. Number two, pleasure is visceral. You feel it in your body. Happiness is ethereal. You feel it above the neck. Number three, pleasure is taking like from a casino. Happiness is giving, like habitats for humanity. Number four, pleasure is experienced alone. Happiness is experienced in social groups. Number five, pleasure can be achieved with substances like cocaine, heroin, nicotine, alcohol, sugar. Happiness cannot be achieved with substances. Number six, the extremes of pleasure, whether it be substances or behaviors, all in the extreme, lead to addiction. There's an aholic after every one of those. Shopaholic, alcoholic, chocoholic, sexaholic. But there's no such thing as being addicted to too much happiness. And number seven, pleasure is dopamine and happiness is serotonin. They are not the same. Two different neurotransmitters, two different cessive receptors, two different areas of the brain, two different mechanisms of action, two different clearance mechanisms, okay? They're not the same. There are things that we do that raise our dopamine. And everything that raises our dopamine lowers our serotonin. And everything that raises our dopamine also ends up increasing the damage that cortisol does. Because dopamine is excitatory. So when dopamine fires, you excite the next neuron. So that increases neurotransmission, that increases energy need. Because every time a neuron fires, it uses up a lot of energy. But cortisol, the stress, actually increases the need for energy because cells that are responsive to cortisol basically need increased energy to be able to maintain their firing rate. So what you have is you have an increased need and the inability to generate it. That means that those neurons are now at risk, risk of death. And that's called addiction. So the dopamine, cortisol thing going together is what drives virtually all of these problem behaviors. And it's what has basically interfered with our stress resilience. And it's built into the system. It's baked into the cake. Now, there are things we could do to fix it. Like I said, we could get social, we could generate purpose outside of ourselves. We can eat better, we can exercise and be mindful, because mindfulness brings cortisol way down. So it basically reduces the stress, the wear and tear on each neuron. So there are things we could do, but we're not doing them because we don't understand them. So that's why we're talking.
- [22:59]
A
Maybe some more people will understand and they can make a difference in their life. I was just listening to some stats. There's a certain country where they were saying it was like 2/3 of people now are going and asking ChatGPT questions that they normally would have asked to a human. And these could be what they think is a connection. How do you see this playing out? Because I'm very nervous and I'm very scared for younger people in the world in the future as robots. Like, for example, right now in Vegas is ces, and at CES they're unveiling massive amounts of robotics. And the stuff I've seen is. It's insane. Like, if I'm a younger person, I'm having a hard time dating, and I find this robot who's a perfect connection, who can physically stimulate me, who. Why would I go back to a human? And I'm really nervous that this is going to become a thing. How do you see this exactly?
- [23:55]
B
This is, this is unfortunately sort of the end of humanity. Because humanity is not just you, the individual. Humanity is all of society. But we are social beings. If instead we are basically having sex with robots, okay? And by the way, you know, I guarantee you that robot's a better kisser than any human. But that's not the point. That is not the point. Okay? We, we lose ourselves, we lose our humanity in our individual, shall we say, craving.
- [24:33]
A
Well, I've heard that younger generations are using social media less. And I've met like, we have a son who's 22. He doesn't. But he barely even uses any social media except maybe YouTube. I think they could go back to maybe flip phones. So maybe, maybe, maybe younger generations are starting to wake up. How do you see this? Do you think they are waking up to this?
- [24:57]
B
I hope so. I mean, I have heard the same things. You know, they've, They've, you know, seen what has happened to their friends. Several of them have committed suicide. They've probably read the book the Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, and you know, this has sort of come to the fore. I hope I've helped, you know, communicate these things as well. And yes, some of them are turning their backs on it because in fact, social media is anti social media. And when they realize it, okay, they want no part of it. Some people are doing dopamine detoxes, okay? They're locking themselves up in a room for three weeks at a time to get their dopamine receptors back so they can feel something. There are all sorts of things that people are doing in an attempt to try to mitigate the damage caused by our current modern environment on their own amygdala. And I'm for that. The question is, why can't we fix the environment so that people don't have to?
- [26:02]
A
So when, when you, and thank you for sharing that. And I, I think it's great to find someone else that is hopeful or positive for the future of generations. When you think about for yourself, legacy. Is legacy important to you? And if it is, is there something that if somebody reads your books 10, 15, 30, 40 years from now, you want them to know about you?
- [26:24]
B
No, not a bit. It's about the message, not the messenger. I don't care what they know about me. I just assume be anonymous. I have zero interest in being a, you know, a celebrity, being, you know, an influencer. Basically. I just, you know, want to be left alone to do my job. And unfortunately my job is, you know, to educate the public. So, you know, people sort of need the face to go with the message, which is unfortunate for me. But, you know, I recognize the problem and, you know, it's not like everybody understands it, so I do what I can.
- [27:02]
A
Well, Dr. Robert, this has been amazing conversation. We'll share all your links, we'll make sure everybody checks out your new books. I, I that was one of the most profound things that anyone has ever said. It's about the message, not the messenger, because most people are seeking the fame part, but maybe that's because they don't have real purpose in their life that is not tied to profit. But this has been great. I super appreciate your time. I know you're so busy. I really enjoyed, I learned more, like I said, I Learned more in 30 years about myself today. So, I mean, I hope other people also, you know, knowing the struggles of going through myself, I hope other people hear this and maybe they can make a change and maybe these future generations because of you and all the things that your message is the world's gonna be a better place.
- [27:54]
B
Look, I. I've got two kids, okay? I wanna leave them something good. And, you know, right now I'm just mortified by what we've done to our. To done to society and to the planet. So it's my job to try to do what I can to fix it.
- [28:10]
A
Well, thank you so much for joining us on founder story.
- [28:13]
B
Thank you for having me.