Founders Talk: Startups, CEOs, Leadership

Guest: Andrew Wilkinson, Founder of MetaLab

Host: Adam Stacoviak

Date: January 13, 2012

Overview

In this engaging episode, Adam Stacoviak interviews Andrew Wilkinson, founder of MetaLab, a leading interface design agency known for its high-profile clients and product businesses. The conversation traces Andrew's entrepreneurial journey from teenage tech blogger to building a multi-faceted company. They discuss bootstrapping, product development, leadership lessons, the challenges of growing a business, and the subtle balance between ambition and fulfillment. Through candid stories, actionable advice, and reflections on design and business philosophy, Andrew offers a deep look into what it takes to succeed—and stay sane—as a founder.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Beginnings in Tech and Media

• Adolescence and Exposure to Tech
  • Andrew grew up in Vancouver, where his architect father’s office introduced him to Macs and technology, sparking early curiosity.
  • After the family moved to Victoria, he connected online with another young Mac enthusiast and co-founded a tech news community, Mac Teens, in 2001.
  • Notable early opportunities included reviewing products, traveling to Macworld, and even attending a private Apple Store tour with Steve Jobs at age 16.
  • Quote: “I got to meet Steve Jobs...felt like I was going to crap myself every moment of it, but it was just an amazing experience for a 16-year-old who's just kind of stumbled into this.” (03:56–04:03)

2. From Journalism Aspirations to Starting MetaLab

• Brief stint at Ryerson University’s journalism school in Toronto convinced Andrew that traditional career paths weren't for him.
• Returned home, struggled with direction, then pivoted to self-learning HTML, CSS, and Photoshop while working at a coffee shop.
• Landed his first job with minimal experience, quickly realizing he saw better ways to run a business than his employers, which spurred him to start MetaLab with $500 to his name.
• Landed first clients (Livestream and Offermatica) within weeks.
• Quote: “Within about three weeks I was waking up whenever I wanted. I was making about three or four times what I was making before...I really got lucky. I think it was mostly timing.” (08:18–08:43)

3. Building MetaLab: Early Choices and Differentiation

• MetaLab began as a one-man agency focused on a specific niche: interface design for web startups, not print or general web.
• This focus enabled rapid growth and high-profile clients such as Google, Disney, NBC, and TED.
• Quote: “I think one good choice...was to decide to focus on a niche. We weren’t going to do print design, we weren’t going to do brochure websites...We were going to focus on web startups and interface design.” (11:06–11:33)

4. Bootstrapping Products: Ballpark and Flow

• Ballpark:
  • Originated as an internal app to track estimates for incoming client work.
  • Positive client feedback led to productizing and public launch.
• Flow:
  • Born out of personal productivity needs, especially as MetaLab grew.
  • Aimed to centralize task management, delegation, and collaboration (work and personal) in one streamlined tool.
  • Development was a big leap: “We went big. I think we spent about $550,000...” (19:08–19:17)
  • Initial validation came from dogfooding and letting a few companies test, but Andrew mostly trusted his gut.
  • Fast growth post-launch—featured in TechCrunch, Daring Fireball, and revenue scaling to $20,000 in three weeks.
  • Quote: “It brings every kind of project and every person in your life into one place...all firewalled and separated, so there's no more jumping between apps...” (15:01–16:04)

5. Structure and Diversification

• MetaLab diversified into three businesses under one umbrella:
  1. Consulting business
  2. Software company (Ballpark and Flow)
  3. Digital goods (Pixel Union): Tumbler and Shopify themes (over a million users on their most popular Tumblr theme)
• Each entity has independent staff and payroll but shares knowledge and resources.
• Diversification provides financial stability and flexibility.

6. Lessons in Business, Delegation, and Growth

• Delegation was hard-won: Andrew learned to let others fail, recover, and grow—freeing him to focus on impactful work.
• Emphasized hiring ahead of needs and building a team that can cover different business units if one underperforms.
• Quote: “Now, five years in, I literally don’t...touch anything that I don’t need to...I delegate absolutely everything in my life.” (33:08–33:41)
• Advocates for honest self-assessment—workaholism and one-person heroics aren’t sustainable.

7. Bootstrapping vs. Venture Capital

• MetaLab never raised VC funding, choosing to “play the long game.”
• Prefers 100% ownership, no pressure for an exit, and the ability to self-incubate and invest in new ideas.
• Quote: “I like to hold on to the things that I build and I like to play the long game...with our company, we've built our own incubator.” (45:27–47:46)

8. Relationships, Mentorship, and Informal Advisory Boards

• Andrew’s father encouraged entrepreneurial thinking—“how can you turn this into a business?” was a constant refrain.
• Relies on a loose network of peers he can consult for practical advice (e.g., founders of Shopify, Squarespace, Tumblr).
• Emphasizes reciprocal relationships, not transactional mentorship.
• Quote: “It’s the sort of thing where I just will randomly call them up and I try and make sure that I have something to say back and can contribute.” (24:34–25:06)

9. Design Philosophy and Learning

• Andrew credits obsessive practice for his design skills—echoes the “10,000 hours rule” for mastery.
• Simplicity, clarity, and relentless refinement trump visual tricks for him.
• Quote: “I think being able to focus on taking things away or making things smaller or, you know, really simplifying elements, that's kind of where we've shone.” (51:15–52:28)

10. Marketing, Fun, and (Accidental) Virality

• Occasional public redesigns (e.g., Zappos, Facebook) serve as both creative outlet and inadvertent marketing.
• Early Tumblr theme experiment led to the lucrative Pixel Union business.
• Even failed experiments (like $999 Tumblr sites) paid dividends in visibility and credibility.

11. Handling Copycats and Design Theft

• Shared the story of Mozilla’s Jetpack team copying MetaLab’s site design after requesting an estimate, then declining the project.
• Turned a negative into PR: blogged about it, unintentionally sparking wide debate in the tech/design community.
• Quote: “We go to check out the new Jetpack design, and it’s literally the MetaLab website...We found it kind of astounding...It was just so blatant.” (48:01–49:30)

12. Redefining Success and the Influence of Steve Jobs

• Steve Jobs was Andrew’s early idol, but his own burnout shifted his priorities away from working “at the expense of everything else.”
• Cites the psychological concept of “flow” (the state of focused immersion) as the true measure of happiness and fulfillment, over monetary or external accomplishments.
• Quote: “I don’t need to make a dent in the universe. What I do care about is doing great work every day, employing great people and spending my time with them and having a group of friends who I care about and have a lot in common with.” (57:07–59:07)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Meeting Steve Jobs (04:03):
  “I got to meet Steve Jobs...felt like I was going to crap myself every moment of it, but it was just an amazing experience for a 16-year-old who's just kind of stumbled into this.” — Andrew

• Self-Determination (08:43):
  “I was waking up whenever I wanted. I was making about three or four times what I was making before...I got lucky. I think it was mostly timing.” — Andrew

• Niche Focus (11:06):
  “We were going to focus on web startups and interface design...that put us in a unique position.” — Andrew

• On Risk and Validation (19:17):
  “We went big. I think we spent about $550,000 or something like that...I’ve always been relatively unconcerned with risk. I think, you know, I’m in my 20s, this is the time to do it.” — Andrew

• The Illusion of Scale (09:16):
  “The coolest thing, the gift that we have is that we can look as big as we want to. Even though I was a 19-year-old whose voice cracked...I could look like a relatively large design agency because the website is all anyone was going off of.” — Andrew

• Delegation as Growth (33:44):
  “Now, five years in, I literally don’t...touch anything that I don’t need to...I delegate absolutely everything in my life.” — Andrew

• Redefining Success (59:07):
  “Accomplishment didn’t really matter. And so now I don’t necessarily look at business as something that, you know, I need to do. I don’t need to make a dent in the universe. I don’t really care to make a dent in the universe.” — Andrew

• On Flow (57:07):
  “The idea of flow...it's when you have those moments where you're in the zone...What I realized a couple years ago is that that was really what mattered. And as long as I did that in some form or another, every single day, that I could be really happy.” — Andrew

Important Timestamps & Segments

• Andrew’s Background & Start in Tech (01:14–04:03)
• Meeting Steve Jobs (03:41–04:03)
• MetaLab’s Founding Story & ‘Acting As If’ (08:43–10:15)
• MetaLab’s Structure & Businesses (12:03–14:39)
• Ballpark & Flow Product Origins (14:39–18:28)
• Growth, Validation, and Bootstrapping (18:28–21:21)
• Mentorship, Informal Advisors (21:21–25:15)
• Advice to Young Designers & Students (51:15–52:28)
• Handling Copying & Mozilla Jetpack Story (48:01–50:52)
• Steve Jobs & Redefining Fulfillment (53:47–59:07)
• Explaining the Meaning Behind Flow (57:07–60:00)

Takeaways & Closing Themes

• Self-learning and experimentation can trump credentials and degrees.
• Focus—on a niche, on a specific client type, or on personal growth—yields disproportionate results.
• Delegation isn’t about being lazy—it’s about sustainability, creativity, and multiplying impact.
• Bootstrapping allows founders to retain control, move at their own pace, and compound successes over time.
• Real fulfillment comes not from “making a dent in the universe” but from mastering your craft, meaningful relationships, and daily “flow.”
• Even setbacks and failures—whether product launches or copyright disputes—can be leveraged for learning, growth, and even marketing wins.

Resources Mentioned

• MetaLab: metalabdesign.com
• Ballpark: getballpark.com
• Flow: getflow.com
• Pixel Union: pixelunion.net
• Killing Me, Zappos blog post
• Flow (book) by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
• Steve Jobs biography

For Listeners Who Want to Connect

• Andrew Wilkinson: @awilkinson
• “Just email me...andrew@metalabdesign.com and just keep it short.” (28:52).

Summary by Founders Talk Podcast Summarizer · Episode aired January 13, 2012