Founders Talk: Startups, CEOs, Leadership
Guest: Andrew Wilkinson, Founder of MetaLab
Host: Adam Stacoviak
Date: January 13, 2012
Overview
In this engaging episode, Adam Stacoviak interviews Andrew Wilkinson, founder of MetaLab, a leading interface design agency known for its high-profile clients and product businesses. The conversation traces Andrew's entrepreneurial journey from teenage tech blogger to building a multi-faceted company. They discuss bootstrapping, product development, leadership lessons, the challenges of growing a business, and the subtle balance between ambition and fulfillment. Through candid stories, actionable advice, and reflections on design and business philosophy, Andrew offers a deep look into what it takes to succeed—and stay sane—as a founder.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Early Beginnings in Tech and Media
- Adolescence and Exposure to Tech
- Andrew grew up in Vancouver, where his architect father’s office introduced him to Macs and technology, sparking early curiosity.
- After the family moved to Victoria, he connected online with another young Mac enthusiast and co-founded a tech news community, Mac Teens, in 2001.
- Notable early opportunities included reviewing products, traveling to Macworld, and even attending a private Apple Store tour with Steve Jobs at age 16.
- Quote: “I got to meet Steve Jobs...felt like I was going to crap myself every moment of it, but it was just an amazing experience for a 16-year-old who's just kind of stumbled into this.” (03:56–04:03)
2. From Journalism Aspirations to Starting MetaLab
- Brief stint at Ryerson University’s journalism school in Toronto convinced Andrew that traditional career paths weren't for him.
- Returned home, struggled with direction, then pivoted to self-learning HTML, CSS, and Photoshop while working at a coffee shop.
- Landed his first job with minimal experience, quickly realizing he saw better ways to run a business than his employers, which spurred him to start MetaLab with $500 to his name.
- Landed first clients (Livestream and Offermatica) within weeks.
- Quote: “Within about three weeks I was waking up whenever I wanted. I was making about three or four times what I was making before...I really got lucky. I think it was mostly timing.” (08:18–08:43)
3. Building MetaLab: Early Choices and Differentiation
- MetaLab began as a one-man agency focused on a specific niche: interface design for web startups, not print or general web.
- This focus enabled rapid growth and high-profile clients such as Google, Disney, NBC, and TED.
- Quote: “I think one good choice...was to decide to focus on a niche. We weren’t going to do print design, we weren’t going to do brochure websites...We were going to focus on web startups and interface design.” (11:06–11:33)
4. Bootstrapping Products: Ballpark and Flow
- Ballpark:
- Originated as an internal app to track estimates for incoming client work.
- Positive client feedback led to productizing and public launch.
- Flow:
- Born out of personal productivity needs, especially as MetaLab grew.
- Aimed to centralize task management, delegation, and collaboration (work and personal) in one streamlined tool.
- Development was a big leap: “We went big. I think we spent about $550,000...” (19:08–19:17)
- Initial validation came from dogfooding and letting a few companies test, but Andrew mostly trusted his gut.
- Fast growth post-launch—featured in TechCrunch, Daring Fireball, and revenue scaling to $20,000 in three weeks.
- Quote: “It brings every kind of project and every person in your life into one place...all firewalled and separated, so there's no more jumping between apps...” (15:01–16:04)
5. Structure and Diversification
- MetaLab diversified into three businesses under one umbrella:
- Consulting business
- Software company (Ballpark and Flow)
- Digital goods (Pixel Union): Tumbler and Shopify themes (over a million users on their most popular Tumblr theme)
- Each entity has independent staff and payroll but shares knowledge and resources.
- Diversification provides financial stability and flexibility.
6. Lessons in Business, Delegation, and Growth
- Delegation was hard-won: Andrew learned to let others fail, recover, and grow—freeing him to focus on impactful work.
- Emphasized hiring ahead of needs and building a team that can cover different business units if one underperforms.
- Quote: “Now, five years in, I literally don’t...touch anything that I don’t need to...I delegate absolutely everything in my life.” (33:08–33:41)
- Advocates for honest self-assessment—workaholism and one-person heroics aren’t sustainable.
7. Bootstrapping vs. Venture Capital
- MetaLab never raised VC funding, choosing to “play the long game.”
- Prefers 100% ownership, no pressure for an exit, and the ability to self-incubate and invest in new ideas.
- Quote: “I like to hold on to the things that I build and I like to play the long game...with our company, we've built our own incubator.” (45:27–47:46)
8. Relationships, Mentorship, and Informal Advisory Boards
- Andrew’s father encouraged entrepreneurial thinking—“how can you turn this into a business?” was a constant refrain.
- Relies on a loose network of peers he can consult for practical advice (e.g., founders of Shopify, Squarespace, Tumblr).
- Emphasizes reciprocal relationships, not transactional mentorship.
- Quote: “It’s the sort of thing where I just will randomly call them up and I try and make sure that I have something to say back and can contribute.” (24:34–25:06)
9. Design Philosophy and Learning
- Andrew credits obsessive practice for his design skills—echoes the “10,000 hours rule” for mastery.
- Simplicity, clarity, and relentless refinement trump visual tricks for him.
- Quote: “I think being able to focus on taking things away or making things smaller or, you know, really simplifying elements, that's kind of where we've shone.” (51:15–52:28)
10. Marketing, Fun, and (Accidental) Virality
- Occasional public redesigns (e.g., Zappos, Facebook) serve as both creative outlet and inadvertent marketing.
- Early Tumblr theme experiment led to the lucrative Pixel Union business.
- Even failed experiments (like $999 Tumblr sites) paid dividends in visibility and credibility.
11. Handling Copycats and Design Theft
- Shared the story of Mozilla’s Jetpack team copying MetaLab’s site design after requesting an estimate, then declining the project.
- Turned a negative into PR: blogged about it, unintentionally sparking wide debate in the tech/design community.
- Quote: “We go to check out the new Jetpack design, and it’s literally the MetaLab website...We found it kind of astounding...It was just so blatant.” (48:01–49:30)
12. Redefining Success and the Influence of Steve Jobs
- Steve Jobs was Andrew’s early idol, but his own burnout shifted his priorities away from working “at the expense of everything else.”
- Cites the psychological concept of “flow” (the state of focused immersion) as the true measure of happiness and fulfillment, over monetary or external accomplishments.
- Quote: “I don’t need to make a dent in the universe. What I do care about is doing great work every day, employing great people and spending my time with them and having a group of friends who I care about and have a lot in common with.” (57:07–59:07)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
Meeting Steve Jobs (04:03):
“I got to meet Steve Jobs...felt like I was going to crap myself every moment of it, but it was just an amazing experience for a 16-year-old who's just kind of stumbled into this.” — Andrew -
Self-Determination (08:43):
“I was waking up whenever I wanted. I was making about three or four times what I was making before...I got lucky. I think it was mostly timing.” — Andrew -
Niche Focus (11:06):
“We were going to focus on web startups and interface design...that put us in a unique position.” — Andrew -
On Risk and Validation (19:17):
“We went big. I think we spent about $550,000 or something like that...I’ve always been relatively unconcerned with risk. I think, you know, I’m in my 20s, this is the time to do it.” — Andrew -
The Illusion of Scale (09:16):
“The coolest thing, the gift that we have is that we can look as big as we want to. Even though I was a 19-year-old whose voice cracked...I could look like a relatively large design agency because the website is all anyone was going off of.” — Andrew -
Delegation as Growth (33:44):
“Now, five years in, I literally don’t...touch anything that I don’t need to...I delegate absolutely everything in my life.” — Andrew -
Redefining Success (59:07):
“Accomplishment didn’t really matter. And so now I don’t necessarily look at business as something that, you know, I need to do. I don’t need to make a dent in the universe. I don’t really care to make a dent in the universe.” — Andrew -
On Flow (57:07):
“The idea of flow...it's when you have those moments where you're in the zone...What I realized a couple years ago is that that was really what mattered. And as long as I did that in some form or another, every single day, that I could be really happy.” — Andrew
Important Timestamps & Segments
- Andrew’s Background & Start in Tech (01:14–04:03)
- Meeting Steve Jobs (03:41–04:03)
- MetaLab’s Founding Story & ‘Acting As If’ (08:43–10:15)
- MetaLab’s Structure & Businesses (12:03–14:39)
- Ballpark & Flow Product Origins (14:39–18:28)
- Growth, Validation, and Bootstrapping (18:28–21:21)
- Mentorship, Informal Advisors (21:21–25:15)
- Advice to Young Designers & Students (51:15–52:28)
- Handling Copying & Mozilla Jetpack Story (48:01–50:52)
- Steve Jobs & Redefining Fulfillment (53:47–59:07)
- Explaining the Meaning Behind Flow (57:07–60:00)
Takeaways & Closing Themes
- Self-learning and experimentation can trump credentials and degrees.
- Focus—on a niche, on a specific client type, or on personal growth—yields disproportionate results.
- Delegation isn’t about being lazy—it’s about sustainability, creativity, and multiplying impact.
- Bootstrapping allows founders to retain control, move at their own pace, and compound successes over time.
- Real fulfillment comes not from “making a dent in the universe” but from mastering your craft, meaningful relationships, and daily “flow.”
- Even setbacks and failures—whether product launches or copyright disputes—can be leveraged for learning, growth, and even marketing wins.
Resources Mentioned
- MetaLab: metalabdesign.com
- Ballpark: getballpark.com
- Flow: getflow.com
- Pixel Union: pixelunion.net
- Killing Me, Zappos blog post
- Flow (book) by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
- Steve Jobs biography
For Listeners Who Want to Connect
- Andrew Wilkinson: @awilkinson
- “Just email me...andrew@metalabdesign.com and just keep it short.” (28:52).
Summary by Founders Talk Podcast Summarizer · Episode aired January 13, 2012
