612. Is Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade Its Most Valuable Asset?

Summary

Freakonomics Radio Episode 612: Is Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade Its Most Valuable Asset?

Release Date: November 21, 2024

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Introduction

In this thought-provoking episode of Freakonomics Radio, host Stephen Dubner delves into the economics and value behind one of America's most cherished traditions—the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade. Exploring whether the parade stands as Macy's most valuable asset, Dubner unpacks the intricate blend of tradition, marketing, and community impact that sustains this century-old event.

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The Magic Behind the Balloons

Dubner begins by recounting his personal connection to the parade, highlighting the annual "Inflation Night" held on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. This event transforms two extra-wide streets on Manhattan’s Upper West Side into a bustling hub as giant balloons are unpacked, inflated, and displayed. Dubner observes, “The parade people execute the mission with a blend of military efficiency and childlike glee” (05:53), emphasizing the meticulous planning and execution required to bring the balloons to life.

Quote:

"The parade people execute the mission with a blend of military efficiency and childlike glee." — Stephen Dubner [05:53]

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Cost Analysis: The Hidden Expenses

Attempting to uncover the financial intricacies of the parade, Dubner interviews several key figures involved in its production. Will Coss, the Executive Producer of the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, provides insights into the multifaceted responsibilities that encompass balloon and float design, construction, and the logistical challenges of shutting down 3.5 miles of New York City on one of its busiest days.

Quote:

"The executive producer oversees the entire production of the parade from our balloon and float design, construction, fabrication and delivery to New York City on parade day to all of the logistics." — Will Coss [08:32]

Despite estimates ranging from $10 to $15 million, the exact costs remain elusive as Macy’s maintains a tradition of secrecy, referring to the parade as their "annual gift to the nation." Dubner acknowledges the complexity in quantifying both the costs and the intangible benefits the parade brings to Macy’s brand and its advertising partners.

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The Role of Sponsorship and Advertising

A significant portion of the parade's budget stems from sponsorships and advertising, with major brands funding balloons and floats to gain visibility among millions of viewers. Jen Neal from NBCUniversal, the network broadcasting the parade for 71 years, explains the strategic integration of brand messaging into the parade's elements.

Quote:

"Advertising messages that are in the parade deliver stronger memorability and likability." — Jen Neal [15:11]

Dubner estimates that brands may spend around $76 million on advertising during the parade's broadcast, although exact figures remain undisclosed by Macy's. This symbiotic relationship underscores the parade’s dual role as a cultural spectacle and a powerful marketing platform.

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Production and Logistics: A Year-Round Endeavor

The parade's production is an 18-month process involving over 65 full-time Macy Studios employees, supplemented by thousands of volunteers on parade day. Jen Neal details the extensive planning required, from rehearsals to the actual event, highlighting the logistical marvel that ensures smooth execution despite the event's scale.

Quote:

"There's incredible complexity in terms of the production... each year we are evaluating what we want to evolve and change." — Jen Neal [12:11]

The introduction of Balloon Fest—a dry run held at MetLife Stadium—allows the parade team to test balloons in real-time conditions, ensuring readiness for the main event. Will Coss notes, “We do run into a situation on parade day to quickly try to remedy that one specific area without it compromising the integrity of the entire balloon” (39:31).

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Cultural Impact and Brand Longevity

Jeff Kinney, author of the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series, shares his experience with the parade, illustrating how participation has bolstered his brand’s visibility and cultural relevance. The longevity of diverse characters like Snoopy and Pikachu in the parade showcases Macy’s ability to evolve with changing cultural trends while maintaining long-standing traditions.

Quote:

"The fact that Wimpy Kid is going strong suggests that the balloon is a part of that equation." — Jeff Kinney [29:17]

Kinney emphasizes the parade's role in embedding his character into the cultural consciousness, enhancing brand loyalty and recognition across generations.

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City Partnerships and Economic Benefits

Dubner explores the partnership between Macy's and New York City, highlighting the significant resources the city allocates to facilitate the parade. Dawn Tolson from the NYC Street Activity Permit Office provides a glimpse into the permit costs, infrastructure adjustments, and the extensive collaboration required between Macy's and various city agencies.

Quote:

"Macy's is a partner with the city. They put on two very iconic events... we work with them to ensure that we are very cognizant of the amount of resources that we're using." — Dawn Tolson [48:38]

While the exact financial arrangements remain undisclosed, it's clear that the parade generates substantial economic activity, attracting millions of spectators and driving commerce both on-site and through broadcast advertising.

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Security and Sanitation: Behind the Scenes

The episode also sheds light on the often-overlooked aspects of parade production, such as security and sanitation. Will Coss outlines the comprehensive security plans involving visible and behind-the-scenes personnel, while Jessica Tisch, NYC’s Sanitation Commissioner, discusses the massive cleanup effort required to maintain the city's cleanliness post-parade.

Quote:

"There is something mind boggling about doing all this work for one night and setting it all up for one day and now taking it all down." — John Chaney, Carpenter [37:26]

These elements underscore the parade's complexity and the extensive collaboration between private entities and public services to ensure its success.

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Conclusion: The Parade as Macy’s Crown Jewel

As the episode wraps up, CEO Tony Spring of Macy’s emphasizes the parade’s enduring relevance and its role as a cornerstone of Macy’s brand identity. While financial details remain tightly held, it’s evident that the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade is not only a significant cultural event but also a strategic marketing asset that continues to adapt and thrive in a changing retail landscape.

Quote:

"This is a great example of... what makes it such an amazing spectacular." — Tony Spring [55:46]

Dubner leaves listeners anticipating the second part of the series, which will further explore Macy’s current challenges in the retail sector and its strategies to remain relevant in an increasingly digital marketplace.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

1. Stephen Dubner [05:53]:

   "The parade people execute the mission with a blend of military efficiency and childlike glee."

2. Will Coss [08:32]:

   "The executive producer oversees the entire production of the parade from our balloon and float design, construction, fabrication and delivery to New York City on parade day to all of the logistics."

3. Jen Neal [15:11]:

   "Advertising messages that are in the parade deliver stronger memorability and likability."

4. Jen Neal [12:11]:

   "There's incredible complexity in terms of the production... each year we are evaluating what we want to evolve and change."

5. Jeff Kinney [29:17]:

   "The fact that Wimpy Kid is going strong suggests that the balloon is a part of that equation."

6. Dawn Tolson [48:38]:

   "Macy's is a partner with the city. They put on two very iconic events... we work with them to ensure that we are very cognizant of the amount of resources that we're using."

7. John Chaney [37:26]:

   "There is something mind boggling about doing all this work for one night and setting it all up for one day and now taking it all down."

8. Tony Spring [55:46]:

   "This is a great example of... what makes it such an amazing spectacular."

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Final Thoughts

Is Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade Its Most Valuable Asset? provides an insightful examination of the parade's financial underpinnings, cultural significance, and its pivotal role in sustaining Macy’s brand legacy. Through interviews with key stakeholders and behind-the-scenes narratives, Dubner paints a comprehensive picture of how tradition and commerce intertwine to create one of the most beloved events in American culture.

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Stay tuned for Part Two of this series, where Dubner continues to explore Macy's relevance in today's evolving retail environment and the strategies being employed to navigate the challenges ahead.

Transcript

[Stephen Dubner]

Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Capital One. In today's world, everyone subscribes to everything music, tv, even pet supplies. And it rocks until you have to manage it all. Which is where Capital One comes in. Capital One credit card holders can easily track, block or cancel recurring charges right from the Capital One mobile app at no additional cost. With one sign in, you can manage all your subscriptions all in one place. Learn more at CapitalOne.comscriptions Terms and Conditions apply. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast. Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC hey there, it's Stephen Dubner with a quick word before today's episode. We have a new listener survey that I would love you to take if you have the time and the interest. We are always trying to get better around here and feedback helps. So Please go to Freakonomics.com survey. It'll only take a few minutes. Thanks for that and as always, thanks for listening. I really only started paying attention to the Macy's Thanksgiving day parade about 10 years ago when my family and I moved into the neighborhood where the parade starts and where the night before they stage everything. This is on the Upper west side of Manhattan. They take over two extra wide streets to lay out the giant balloons. Each balloon arrives folded up flat in its own small rolling cart. It gets unpacked, unfolded, laid out on the pavement, and then comes the helium. There's a truck nearby with big helium canisters stacked horizontally on a rack. Up close, the balloons are really big. You see this as soon as they start drinking up some helium and puff up to full size. But tonight is Wednesday, the night before the parade. Inflation Night they call it. So the balloons aren't allowed to rise to parade height. Each one has a net thrown across the top and the net is held down by sandbags. If you happen to be passing by on foot, this can provide an unusual view of your favorite balloon character. A bulging eyeball, a massive derriere, some very chubby fingers. Many thousands of people come see the balloons on Inflation Night. It is an unusual and joyful scene for the visitors and the locals. For many people, myself included, it is the best New York Night of the year, a lot of people who live on these blocks throw inflation parties up in their apartments. And when you look straight down out of your window, you get another unusual and wonderful view of the balloons. I've watched this whole operation for several years now, and every year I'm a little bit more impressed. The parade people execute the mission with a blend of military efficiency and childlike glee. You can't help but marvel at how much planning must go into it. Also how good the execution has to be. Not just from the parade side of things, but from the city side and the broadcasting side. And it's not like they have weeks or even days to set up. On Wednesday morning, the streets are normal, full of cars, trucks, jaywalkers, dogs, bikes. And then the balloon people come and you get to see the real up close version of the thing that everybody else has to watch on TV in miniature. The cleanup begins as soon as the last balloon enters the parade on Central Park West. And by the time they reach the Macy's flagship store down in Herald Square, our streets are back to cars and trucks again. Although not so many since it's still Thanksgiving morning. Like I said, it's only recently that I began paying attention to the parade. I do remember it being on TV when I was a kid, but I don't know, I guess I just wasn't a parade person. Seeing it up close made me curious. And after last year's parade, I took a look at the TV ratings. Holy. Nearly 30 million viewers, another 3 million plus watch in person from the sidewalks and grandstands. But the TV numbers blew me away. As you may know, the television juggernaut these days is the National Football league. Of the 100 most watched broadcasts last year, 93 were NFL games. The Macy's parade was one of the remaining seven, beaten out only by the State of the union address. A TV audience of 30 million must generate a lot of ad revenue. And then I got to wondering how much and then I got to wondering how much it costs to produce the parade. Simple questions, right? As it turns out, not so simple. Macy's is one of the oldest department stores in the US and it has a lot of traditions. One of those traditions is not talking about the economics of its Thanksgiving parade. They like to call it their annual gift to the nation. And we all know it's not polite to ask how much a gift costs. But today on Freakonomics Radio, we ask anyway.

[Tony Spring]

Why do I need to know how much line can cost to produce?

[Kevin Lynch]

I can't tell you that. We can't talk about sensitive commercial topics out here.

[Dawn Tolson]

Oh, I can't say how much they pay. Could try.

[Stephen Dubner]

This is the first of a two part series. We will look into the cost of the raw materials.

[Will Coss]

We do have our finger on the pulse of helium.

[Stephen Dubner]

We'll look at how New York City pitches in.

[Dawn Tolson]

I don't know how you guys found me, by the way, because most people don't know I exist.

[Stephen Dubner]

We will hear from the CEO of Macy's who's trying to keep an old store alive when so much retail is dying.

[Tony Spring]

I want to be perceived as giving this gift to the city and to the nation. I also want to do a lot of business.

[Stephen Dubner]

And we ask an industry expert what Macy's stands for today.

[Will Coss]

Macy's doesn't stand for anything today.

[Stephen Dubner]

So come along as we drink the helium and wonder if the Macy's Parade may be the most valuable asset Macy's has.

[Jen Neal]

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Stephen Dubner.

[Stephen Dubner]

We are hardly the first people to wonder how much it costs to stage the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. There are published estimates ranging from around 10 to $15 million, but they're just estimates and it's unclear where those numbers come from, which makes sense. Macy's doesn't like to talk about it and therefore it's hard to even identify all the costs. It's also hard to quantify the benefits. Keep in mind that most of the balloons and floats in the parade are sponsored by big brands that are presumably paying big money for the millions of eyeballs that will see them. And the parade itself is one big ad for Macy's. But let's start by focusing on the costs. There is of course, the expense of building and maintaining the balloons and floats. There is the casting and wrangling of the marching bands and other performers. And there are all sorts of city services, police and sanitation and counterterrorism that somebody's paying for. And then there are all the personnel costs for the Macy's Parade unit, which is a year round operation. So we figured we might as well start at the source, Will Coss.

[Will Coss]

And I'm the executive producer of Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

[Stephen Dubner]

And what does Will Coss actually do?

[Will Coss]

The executive producer oversees the entire production of the parade from our balloon and float design, construction, fabrication and delivery to New York City on parade day to all of the logistics as it relates to shutting down three and a half miles of New York City on the busiest travel day in New York.

[Stephen Dubner]

Kas grew up in New York in the Bronx, and he went to college nearby on Long Island.

[Will Coss]

I traveled really far.

[Stephen Dubner]

Have you ever lived outside of the New York City area then?

[Will Coss]

I've not.

[Stephen Dubner]

Kas now lives on the Upper west side with his wife and daughter. He's 44 years old. He started out as a producer for MTV, Nickelodeon, YouTube, and he got the Macy's job in 2021. But he sounds like a lifer.

[Will Coss]

We are part of the tradition of Thanksgiving morning for millions of people. If you love marching bands, we've got that. If you love giant balloons, we've got that. We've got floats, we've got celebrity. We've been a staple. Whether you're sat in front of the television or have it on in the background, just using us as the soundtrack to your Thanksgiving morning, we're there.

[Stephen Dubner]

Macy's itself was founded in 1858 by Roland Hussey Macy, a former whaler from Nantucket. He ran dry goods stores in Massachusetts and California before settling in New York City. They sold everything from clothing and furniture to groceries and books. By 1902, according to one history of the store, the human wants were few indeed that the Macy's store could not meet. By 1924, the Macy's flagship store in Herald Square was the world's largest store with over one and a half million square feet. That year, Macy's sponsored its first parade, a six mile march through Manhattan. It featured three horse drawn floats, four professional bands and camels, elephants and bears borrowed from the Central Park Zoo. In these early days, Macy's released big helium balloons into the sky after the parade and offered a $100 reward for their return. That tradition ended in 1932 when a novice pilot going for the reward crashed into a balloon in the sky. It has now been 100 years since the first parade, although this year's edition is only the 98th since they took three years off during World War II. The parade today looks a lot different than it used to when there are 30 million people watching on TV. Appearances matter.

[Will Coss]

We are the largest televised variety show of the year. There's something about the work that we do that connects multigenerational It's a responsibility that we don't take lightly knowing that we have that impact on so many folks.

[Jen Neal]

The demographics are far and wide and are representative of everyone that's in New York City and America, that is. Jen Neal and I oversee the strategy, the creative development and the operations for all of our live events and specials across NBCU.

[Stephen Dubner]

NBCUniversal is the network that has carried the Macy's parade for 71 years. Neil's team produces roughly three dozen big live events a year.

[Jen Neal]

Christmas at Rockefeller Center, New Year's Eve, the People's Choice Awards, red carpets around Hollywood's biggest nights like the Grammys, the Oscars. My role focuses on the entertainment side, but we have incredible teams on the sports side that do the super bowl and the Olympics.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can you compare the production and coverage of the parade to the Super Bowl? I mean obviously with the super bowl there are many, many, many elements and features and so on, but it is in the end a self contained athletic competition on one big patch of turf. Whereas the parade is this roving multi mile extravaganza through New York City.

[Jen Neal]

There's incredible complexity in terms of the production. Each year there are a number of elements that stay the same and each year we are evaluating what we want to evolve and change. Do the Broadway shows kick off the show? Is it better to have them in the second or third hour? A Super bowl is incredible and there's many dynamics that go into that. But you're still covering a football game which has the same rules and the same field of play each year.

[Stephen Dubner]

What is the timeline from your end? When do you start working on a given year's parade?

[Jen Neal]

We start looking at it right after the parade ends. Truly the week or two after. In fact, this year is the 98th year of the parade and we are already talking about the 99th and the 100th anniversary.

[Will Coss]

The parade is an 18 month pre production to execution process.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's Wilcox.

[Will Coss]

Again, my full Macy Studios team is over 65 full time folks that range from our partnership team to our creative team to our studio production team. Logistics, Project management, production management. The 65 number is our full time. As we get closer, we expand considerably.

[Jen Neal]

The week before they paint The Star on 34th Street. The Monday and Tuesday nights we shut down 34th street in front of Macy's. We're rehearsing with all the performers. Wednesday night we've introduced in the last two years a countdown show to bring to life the inflation of the balloons that happen magically on the Upper west side. And then Thursday we have a call time. The day of Thanksgiving, 2am and Jen.

[Stephen Dubner]

Where do you spend parade day?

[Jen Neal]

I'm in the truck. I'm in the truck on parade day which is where? On 34th street or adjacent to 34th Street.

[Stephen Dubner]

And what's that day like for you?

[Jen Neal]

There's a lot of energy, a lot of adrenaline. We go live at 8:30 through noon. So it's three and a half hours of that coverage. We have preparation and contingencies and plans for every single thing that can happen along the way. And then I do once every parade, take 30 seconds during a commercial break and jump out into the streets and see the scale of, you know, Snoopy or the Minion or the Doughboy adjacent to the buildings in New York. And it's magic.

[Stephen Dubner]

It also sounds incredibly expensive to produce from your side. Not just the coverage part, but the coordination and the run of show and talent and so on. Can you just talk about how extensive that is?

[Jen Neal]

We don't really get into the cost of everything, but what I can say is we know that this is incredibly valuable to our advertising partners, and we know that advertising messages that are in the parade deliver stronger memorability and likability.

[Stephen Dubner]

I did see on the NBCUniversal site a report about the power of the parade from a consumer perspective said that the year over year growth demonstrates that NBCUniversal is moving consumers down the purchase funnel. What does that mean, moving consumers down the purchase funnel?

[Jen Neal]

First, our job is we got to make sure that this is incredibly entertaining and relevant and great tv. And second, brands want to be associated with this because their messaging is woven in. And each brand takes a different strategy to do that.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can you give me an example?

[Jen Neal]

When you are a Jennie O. Turkey and you want to have a turkey float, they're going to want to talk about the number of years of the big turkey spectacular and what Jennie O. Brings to you. Well, the star of the Thanksgiving meal has arrived on a green and gold platter, the signature colors of its gracious host. Jennie O. If you're the Jolly Green Giant, you're going to talk about holly traditions and some of those products. Well, there in the valley on the farm, the green Giant oversees the fall harvest, ensuring that each vegetable for your Thanksgiving table is picked at the peak of perfection.

[Stephen Dubner]

In other words, yes, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade is a parade. But unlike a memorial parade or a victory parade or a pride parade, this one is plainly a commercial venture, a marketing venture.

[Jen Neal]

If you have a Minions float, you're definitely going to talk about Stuart the Minions and the frantic bananas, Ronald McDonald, Smokey the bear. All of these are traditions and floats that have their own unique messaging. From forest fires to fundraising for children's hospitals to the Wondership float.

[Stephen Dubner]

If I were to spec this out from a Super Bowl, I know the super bowl generates around $600 million in ad revenue. That's at an ad rate of about $7 million per 30 seconds. And that's viewership of 110 million. So significantly more than the parade. But I could imagine that the total ad revenue for the Macy's Parade might be in the neighborhood of like 100 or 150 million. Does that seem ballpark, or do you not know?

[Jen Neal]

You know, I'm focused on the creative side. And how are we covering this event in the best way to bring audiences at home? This extraordinary tradition?

[Stephen Dubner]

We did later find an estimate from Vivix, a company that tracks commercial ad spending. They report that brands spent $76 million to advertise on NBC during last year's parade broadcast. Macy's would, as the saying goes, neither confirm nor deny. And that TV revenue presumably wouldn't include money. The brands pay Macy's directly for the rights to sponsor a balloon or a float. Although we should say not every balloon or float is bringing in sponsor money because some of them are promoting Macy's itself. Here's Will Coss again.

[Will Coss]

Tom, Turkey and Santa are Macy's owned and are the iconic elements that open and close the parade.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, so there's no royalties being paid to the Santa Claus foundation or anything like that? I assume so. I want to ask you about the relationships with the brands and whatever you're willing or able to tell me about the financial relationship. My wife's favorite balloon when she was a kid she grew up in New York, was the Pillsbury Doughboy. And the first year we lived on this block, when we woke up the next morning at like 6am and we looked down, it was just this magical sight with sunrise off the balloons, and there was the Doughboy. And we could see, like, the patches. His butt was taped a little bit. And it was just so beautiful and endearing. And I thought, wait a minute, is that still the Pillsbury dope? Like, does Pillsbury still even exist? Then I started to think about Snoopy. And I thought about Snoopy I knew was the emblem of MetLife for a while. And I thought, oh, does that mean it's a Met Life balloon? So let me just make it an open thread for you to tell me what you can about why the balloons that are in the parade are in the parade and how that relationship works.

[Will Coss]

Pillsbury Doughboy, Snoopy, our Peanuts characters, SpongeBob SquarePants. The goal with all of our balloons is to create a moment that's instantly recognizable in the sky. As it relates to selection of balloon, the most important goal is to ensure that each of the characters resonates with our Audiences, and our audience is 1 to 100. So we have some of those, we'll call them legacy characters. And then we have new characters that are appealing to a much younger audience.

[Stephen Dubner]

And Will, what if someone like me came to you and I said, hey, Will, I've got this brand. Freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio. In some ways, it's a pretty big brand, but, you know, it's kind of like a big niche brand. It's not Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It's not, you know, Spider Man. I recognize that. But I've also got a pretty beautiful visual image, what we call an orpal, right? It's an apple that you cut open, and it's an orange in the middle, and it's, you know, it's fruit. Who doesn't like fruit? And I think it would be worth my while to try to figure out how to get my brand in front of the world. These 30 million people that watch it on TV, these 3 million that are there. Would you even take a meeting with me?

[Will Coss]

We're taking the meeting right now. You're underselling the brand, my friend. We're open to taking every meeting and every conversation. This is not an exclusive members only type of event.

[Stephen Dubner]

Well, maybe not quite members only, but it is a small club. This year, there are 17 giant balloons in the parade. Sadly, the Freakonomics Orpal is not one of them, but this guy has one.

[Jeff Kinney]

I pinch myself when I see the balloon fly down the main avenue there.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is Jeff Kinney.

[Jeff Kinney]

I'm an owner of an unlikely story bookstore in Plainville, Massachusetts, and I am the author of the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series.

[Stephen Dubner]

Now, for those who are children or have children who have read those books, you are somewhere between, I don't know, Jesus Christ. And pick your favorite cult hero ever. What's it been like to be you these last 15, 18 years?

[Jeff Kinney]

The ride for me has been a lot like the Truman Show. I feel like I created this character who's a stick figure, and somehow that has propelled me into the most unusual situations you could ever imagine.

[Stephen Dubner]

How many books have there been now and how many copies sold Globally?

[Jeff Kinney]

There are 19 books in the main series. I have four or five spin off books, and there have been about 295 million sold.

[Stephen Dubner]

For people who don't know the series or don't know the character, just talk to me for a minute about Greg Heffley. Who is he? What is his interior and exterior life like?

[Jeff Kinney]

Greg Heffley is a complicated character. He's a bit of A mess. He doesn't always do the right thing. At the time that I was writing Wimpy Kid, I was reading Harry Potter, which is about a boy who's an aspirational character. He's heroic. Greg isn't heroic. He doesn't really want to hear about his best friend Raleigh's vacation and their awesome adventures. He's like a Larry David type in a way. He's very flawed, but hopefully still lovable.

[Stephen Dubner]

Give me a little bit of the origin story of Wimpy Kid itself and Greg Heffley himself and how you brought them to life, how long it took, et cetera.

[Jeff Kinney]

My big dream was to become a newspaper cartoonist. When I was growing up, we got the Washington Post. Every morning my father opened the paper to the comics page. So when I got up, it was already open to the far side and Bloom county and Calvin and Hobbes.

[Stephen Dubner]

You had good taste in comics.

[Jeff Kinney]

Yes. And I was like, well, I know where I want to be. I want to be at the top of that page. And so in college, I created a comic strip that got the attention of the Washington Post. They did a big full page article on the style section and said, hey, this is the next big thing, this comic by this guy. And I believed it. Then I hit the reality of shrinking newspapers and the limits of my own talent, and I couldn't break into the comics. So after about three years of bonking my head into the wall, I realized that it wasn't going to happen for me. At the time, I was keeping a journal. The journal was an organic mix of text and cartoon illustrations that kind of showed what was happening in my life at the time. I looked at it and I said, hey, maybe I've got something here. I can't be in newspapers, but maybe I can be in books. I thought, I'll fictionalize this first. I'll write down every funny thing that happened to me in my life as a kid. I thought I could do that in about two months. Instead, it took four years. It was a 77 page sketch journal. But I filled it with enough ideas for five books.

[Stephen Dubner]

And then, as I understand, but correct me if I'm wrong, you're working as a game developer for Pearson Education and you begin to publish some of this work online on a Pearson site called funbrain.com. is that right?

[Jeff Kinney]

That's right. And my boss was looking for something to keep traffic up over the summer months. I said, hey, I'm working on this thing. It's not really for kids. It's more like The Wonder Years, where an adult is looking back on their childhood. But it could work. So I started publishing online after about a year. We had 12 million readers.

[Stephen Dubner]

Holy cow.

[Jeff Kinney]

And I got a lot of encouragement from adult readers who were following my almost blog like entries.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, and then that leads to a book contract. Just walk me quickly through the mechanics. What came first? Was there an agent? Was there a reach out from a publisher or editor?

[Jeff Kinney]

I went to New York Comic Con. I walked around with a sample packet. I heard about a guy who published a web comic called Mom's Cancer. I talked to the editor at a booth. He said, this is exactly what we're looking for. And I was off to the races.

[Stephen Dubner]

So you wind up publishing with Harry Ann Abrams, correct?

[Jeff Kinney]

Yes. At the time, Harry Ann Abrams would be known as an art book publisher. So those gorgeous picture books that you have on your coffee table, primarily, they weren't doing a lot of this kind of thing. What I really liked was that they treated books as an object to be valued. They put a lot of craftsmanship into their publishing. And I thought if I sign with Harry and Abrams, that might elevate the work itself. And that's the way it's been with Wimpy Kid. About two weeks after the book was published, it got on the New York Times bestseller list, which was just an absolute shock. I remember my wife and I were jumping up and down on our kids bed like we just couldn't believe it. Now it's been on the list a combined total of something like 900 weeks.

[Stephen Dubner]

And let's now talk about how you came to intersect with the Macy's parade.

[Jeff Kinney]

In about 2010, Diary of a Wimpy Kid was doing pretty well. And we had an ambitious publicist named Jason Wells who said, hey, I think we could get a balloon in the Macy's parade. So he approached Macy's and said, hey, how about a balloon? They said, it might not be ready for a balloon, but how about a float? The idea I remember was that there was going to be a standing Greg Heffley, and at the base of the float would be a bunch of kids reading. So it'd be a float to promote reading and literacy.

[Stephen Dubner]

That sounds a little. What's the word I'm looking for? More reverent, perhaps, than the Wimpy Kid brand is.

[Jeff Kinney]

That's right. And we said, we're going to hold out a little bit and see if we get into balloon territory and then what happens next. So the next year, I think I got named to Time magazine's Most influential people list.

[Stephen Dubner]

Congratulations.

[Jeff Kinney]

And that, thank you very much.

[Stephen Dubner]

Theoretically makes you balloon worthy. Yeah, right.

[Jeff Kinney]

So Macy said yes, please. We'd like to do a giant helium balloon and my publisher was kind enough to sign on for the terms.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tell me what you know about that negotiation and the terms of the deal.

[Jeff Kinney]

As you can probably imagine, the terms are proprietary, so I can't talk about that. But it was a multi year situation. You pay a certain amount to get the balloon made and then a certain amount to have it flown every year. That first balloon flew for three years and then we re upped and flew it for another three. And that's really the pattern we've been in for now a good long time. I have no idea what Macy's deals look like with other creators. If we're standard, if we have our own separate thing.

[Stephen Dubner]

Has Harry and Abrams continued to basically pay for or subsidize the participation?

[Jeff Kinney]

To their great credit, Abrams has continued to support the balloon. This past balloon I chipped in because of course I have a big stake in this as well.

[Stephen Dubner]

Any idea what it costs to make it?

[Jeff Kinney]

I don't know what the actual costs are to make a balloon, but I would guess it's somewhere around the low hundred thousand dollar range.

[Stephen Dubner]

I guess the big question is how do you and your publisher think about ROI and all that that implies, not just whether it extends and grows the brand and sells more books and so on, but if it creates a different sort of awareness around.

[Jeff Kinney]

That's a really good question. We think about it a lot. It's possible that the balloon is one of the legs of a chair and if you kicked out that leg, maybe the whole thing collapses. The fact that Wimpy Kid is going strong suggests that the balloon is a part of that equation. But there's also some real pride that's associated with the balloon. Everybody gets to hold the string and walk down the streets of New York City.

[Stephen Dubner]

So what's that like?

[Jeff Kinney]

It's nerve wracking in a way because you're sort of presenting yourself to the world. You're saying, hey, my property is worthy of being here. I remember the first few years we would walk the balloon down the main avenue and I think people were sort of scratching their heads. What's this? Is this Charlie Brown? Who is this? And over time, one of the rewards of this has been that Wimpy Kid is sort of seeped into the cultural consciousness. So now most people know what the.

[Stephen Dubner]

Cheese touch Explain the Cheese Touch. For those who aren't familiar, there's a.

[Jeff Kinney]

Piece of cheese in the first book that sits under a basketball hoop. And it becomes an existential threat to Greg and to all of the middle schoolers. Everybody's worried about getting the cheese touch because it means, you know, certain death. In the middle school popularity rankings.

[Stephen Dubner]

This year will be Wimpy Kidd's 14th consecutive Macy's parade. That puts him on the all time leaderboard, but he's still way behind Snoopy with 43 appearances and Pikachu with 24. Kinney told me that a balloon typically lasts three to five years. He is now on the third version.

[Jeff Kinney]

I think we've gotten better and better at it. And now Greg really looks exactly like I'd like him to look.

[Stephen Dubner]

Describe the current balloon.

[Jeff Kinney]

The current balloon has Greg sort of hunched over getting ready to touch the piece of cheese. So I said to Macy's, we really need to do something special. What can we do? And they came up with an idea that the cheese itself could be in a cart or a car that's like a motorized vehicle that could spin and sort of spew green smoke into the air to make the cheese look like it's emitting smells.

[Stephen Dubner]

Let's go back for a sec. Describe the design process and how involved you are.

[Jeff Kinney]

It's really exciting. It starts with a sketch, and then it moves to kind of a pen and ink drawing. And then Macy's has to turn that into a 3D model, which is not so easy with my character. My characters are two dimensional. Purposefully, I don't have any sense of 3D space at all. And so the first time we saw a Wimpy kid balloon was the first time we saw Greg Heffley articulated in three dimensions.

[Stephen Dubner]

He has a butt, right?

[Jeff Kinney]

In the early days with Macy's, I'd go down to Hoboken, New Jersey, and there would be a clay model waiting for me. The clay was still pliable. And then we would make changes on the fly with a really skilled artist. It would spin around on a pole so we could see it from every angle and really imagine what it would look like from the street level.

[Stephen Dubner]

Since Jeff Kinney's first Wimpy kid balloon, the Macy's Parade studio has moved from Hoboken to nearby Minaki, New Jersey. And rather than clay, balloon modeling now is done with 3D printers. Coming up after the break, let's go to Manaki.

[Will Coss]

Welcome to Macy Studios.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics Radio is Sponsored by T Mobile 5G Home Internet with new home Internet plus from T Mobile you get Internet right where you want it. With WI Fi Mesh, you can boost your connection to places it hasn't reached before, like a boring basement that you can turn into a podcast studio. For a limited time, get a free upgrade to T Mobile Home Internet plus while supplies last. Home Internet plus starts at 50 bucks a month with autopay and any voice line. Check [e-mail] home Internet and get Internet right where you want it during congestion. Customers this plan may notice speeds lower than other customers and further reduction if using greater than 1.2 terabytes per month due to data prioritization. After $20 bill credit plus $5 per month without autopay, debit or bank account required. Regulatory fees included for qualifying accounts. $35 connection charge applies Apple Card is the perfect card for your holiday shopping. When you use Apple Card on your iPhone, you'll earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including products at Apple like a new iPhone 16 or Apple Watch Ultra. Apply now in the Wallet app on your iPhone subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com what's your boldest, truly ambitious life goal? Everyone has one and everyone deserves a way to get there. That's why Estate street offers a wide variety of ETFs to give all investors access to the market and the chance to reach their goals. Like with DIA, where you get 30 US blue chip stocks in a single trade. Wherever you're heading, getting there starts here with State Street. Before investing, consider the fund's investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. Visit ssga.com for perspectives containing this and other information. Read it carefully. DIA Subject to risks similar to those of stocks all ATs are subject to risk, including possible loss of principal. Alps Distributors Inc. Distributor Will Coss, the Parade's executive producer, met us at the Macy's Parade studios in Menaki, New Jersey, just a few miles across the Hudson river from Manhattan.

[Will Coss]

This is our 3D printing room. So this is Diary of a Wimpy Kid.

[Stephen Dubner]

We're looking at a three foot plastic model of Greg Heffley.

[Will Coss]

We've got our character here actually laying on a table at the moment, but if he was sitting in flight position, he'd be pointing at the stinky cheese which will be preceding him down the line of March.

[Stephen Dubner]

We are inside a sprawling brick and glass building that from the outside looks like an office building, but Inside it's a 72,000 square foot warehouse with 44 foot ceilings and a variety of workshop stations, it's also a little bit noisy.

[Will Coss]

The floor that we're standing on right now is our fabrication floor.

[Stephen Dubner]

As we walk through, Koss points out some floats under construction, including a new float representing the Bronx Zoo.

[Will Coss]

So we'll have giraffes, we'll have tigers, we'll have gorillas, birds.

[Stephen Dubner]

These giraffes and tigers are not real the way they would have been back in the beginning.

[Will Coss]

Every element that you see here being sculpted by our very, very talented artists start as a block of foam. We're going to walk over to meet the legend himself, Mr. John Chaney.

[John Chaney]

Howdy.

[Will Coss]

Good to see you. I brought some friends and talked to you.

[Stephen Dubner]

John Chaney is a carpenter who has worked on nearly 50 Macy's parades.

[John Chaney]

I came to New York and I wanted to be an artist, so I went to the Art Students League, and in a few months I started running out of money. But my dad used to always have the parade on. And I met some girl who wanted to work in the costume shop. So I said, I'll just walk over to Macy's and see what's happening. Fifty years ago, it was a lot different than all the paperwork. Now they had this tiring rail. You got up to the rail and there were all these kids around with very nice suits and everything. And I got ripped up jeans and a T shirt on. I said, I want to work the parade. And that's how I got hired.

[Stephen Dubner]

And how does it feel for Chaney to work year round on something that'll be seen for just one day?

[John Chaney]

Well, millions of people see it, so the exposure is really great. But there is something mind boggling about doing all this work for one night and setting it all up for one day and now taking it down. And I guess that's part of the pressure. You have this incredible deadline, and we work all night in the beautiful weather because we don't even dare say that other words. The week before is maybe the hardest time. It's like getting into the water, you know, once you're in there, damn it, we're doing it. I don't care what's going wrong. Let's go.

[Stephen Dubner]

Chaney is one of a couple dozen members of a team of carpenters, sculptors, welders, electricians, costume designers, and what are called balloon technicians. Here's Will Coss again.

[Will Coss]

Right now we're on the balloon studio floor. Once our balloons are flattened, they make their way over to our heat ceiling tables. And this is essentially a sewing machine. But Instead of a needle and string, it's actually melting the two pieces together. And we actually have a balloon in process right now. This is Marshall, our Paw patrol pup.

[Stephen Dubner]

Marshall is a firehouse dalmatian from the animated kids show Paw Patrol.

[Will Coss]

So Marshall is presently rigged to one of our rigging points in the ceiling.

[Stephen Dubner]

At this point, he just looks like a big white round blob with no distinguishable limbs. That's because of how these giant balloons are built.

[Will Coss]

The head right now is the chamber that's inflated. The rest of the balloon is deflated because we're working specifically on the head unit. And that's how all of our balloons are fabricated. They're fabricated into chambers, which gives us some flexibility. We do run into a situation on parade day to quickly try to remedy that one specific area without it compromising the integrity of the entire balloon.

[Stephen Dubner]

Jeff Kinney had told us earlier about a mishap with the wimpy kid balloon.

[Jeff Kinney]

Yeah, I think Greg's hand popped this last year and it looked a little bit sad, but these things happen.

[Stephen Dubner]

Marshall the dalmatian is a new balloon in this year's parade, one of six. All the new balloons will need to have a dry run outdoors before the parade.

[Will Coss]

Our volunteers, our balloon handlers, and our flight management team have an opportunity to see the balloons working in real time and reacting in wind conditions and take notes and prepare for Thanksgiving Day.

[Stephen Dubner]

This dry run is called Balloon Fest. It happens in the parking lot of MetLife Stadium in East Rutherford, New Jersey, about four miles from the Macy's studio in Menaki. Balloon Fest is always held on the first Saturday of November. Good morning, everyone.

[Jen Neal]

Welcome to Balloon Fest.

[Stephen Dubner]

There are several hundred volunteers to handle the balloons. On parade day, there will be 5,000 parade volunteers. Okay, I need 20 handlers. The six six new balloons, including Marshall and Minnie Mouse and a new spider Man. They are already inflated and held down under a net with sandbags. When the time comes, the sandbags are taken away, the nets are pulled off, and the volunteers slowly unroll the thin ropes that are attached to what they call the handling bones, which are plastic X shaped grips. Once the balloons are up in the air, the volunteers walk them around the parking lot. Will Coss is paying close attention. Everything looks good. Nearby is the helium truck. Here's the helium guy.

[Kevin Lynch]

The trailer is about 40ft long. There are 12 high pressure steel tubes in there. If you could get all the helium out of each one of those tubes, you could fill about six to eight of these balloons with a single trailer.

[Stephen Dubner]

His name is Kevin Lynch.

[Kevin Lynch]

I'm the vice president of global helium for Messer.

[Stephen Dubner]

Messer is one of the big players in the helium market. It and the companies it has acquired have been providing helium to the Macy's parade for decades.

[Kevin Lynch]

The helium that's here today started in an underground helium reservoir in Amarillo, Texas. And here we are filling balloons. But if you put too much helium in it, that whole crew of people would be, you know, rising up into the sky.

[Stephen Dubner]

Lynch tells us that each giant balloon takes around 15,000 cubic feet of helium. So how much does that cost Macy's?

[Kevin Lynch]

I can't tell you that. We can't talk about sensitive commercial topics out here.

[Stephen Dubner]

The price of helium itself is not a particularly sensitive topic. Helium is used widely in medical settings and elsewhere, and there's a strong global market for it. Believe it or not, giant balloons consume only a tiny share of the helium market. We did a rough calculation of what it would cost to fill the 17 balloons in this year's parade. If you paid market price, it was around $425,000. I asked Will Coss if this sounded about right, but he wouldn't take the bait. I also asked him what Macy's does about the occasional helium shortage.

[Will Coss]

We do have our finger on the pulse of helium. It's a market that adjusts over time, but we plan for it and have good relationships with our vendors across our helium supply teams.

[Stephen Dubner]

What's your biggest concern or anxiety or, you know, the thing on your to do list that keeps you up the night before? I guess I would assume the weather, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Will Coss]

The weather is definitely a concern for us. We are a rain or shine event. So unless there's significant weather that would impact the flight of the balloons, Wind particularly.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Will Coss]

Wind is one of the most potential risks on our overall parade. We've had some snow in our history. I don't wish that on us. I've been fortunate enough to have relatively good weather. I know my time is coming at some point.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's probably good for the broadcast though, isn't it? Snow?

[Will Coss]

It would look beautiful. But we do still have to get 5,000 people and 27 floats and 17 large balloons down the parade route. So I'd love it to snow at 12:01. How about that? Or 11:59.

[Stephen Dubner]

So far we've heard from the key people who create and broadcast the Macy's Parade. But there is one more partner, sort of a silent partner, without whom it could not happen.

[Dawn Tolson]

If there were no permits, it would be a free for all.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'M Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Anthropic. Anthropic's clawed family of models is AI backed by uncompromising integrity. Claude is run by responsible leadership who have an ethical approach to the development of AI while providing strong data security and putting humanity first. Whether you are brainstorming alone or building with a team, Claude can help many leading companies build with Claude. Claude can help you do your best work too. Claude can perform complex cognitive tasks, quickly translate between various languages, and even generate code. Plus, users love Claude. Softer, more humanistic interactions. Want to take Claude with you? Claude app is available on Apple and Android app stores. Discover how Claude can transform your work and [e-mail] Claude that's anthropic a N T H R o P I C.com Claude C L A U D E Free Economics Radio is sponsored by Amica Insurance. At Amica you will receive coverage with compassion. When you choose Amika, they'll take the time to explain your options for auto, home and life insurance. You can feel confident knowing that they'll protect what matters most to you. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to amica.com and get a quote today. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Lingo. You know how sometimes a meal leaves you energized and other times sluggish, foggy or even hungrier. That may be your glucose talking. Foods that are sugar and carb heavy cause your body's glucose levels to spike. Lingo by Abbott tracks your glucose 247 so you can see how your body responds to food. And over time, Lingo helps you learn to develop habits to steady your glucose which can support your everyday well being, your metabolism and your long term health. Lingo starts at $49 for a two week plan. For a limited time you can save 10% on your first order with code FREAKONOMICS@Hello Lingo.com the Lingo glucose system is for users 18 years and older not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. For more information please visit hellolingo.com yes, there are giant character balloons drifting through the sky. And yes, there are floats and marching bands, Broadway performers, but the real star of the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, if we're being honest. Come on, you know who it is. It's New York City.

[Dawn Tolson]

My name is Dawn Tolson and I'm the Executive Director of Citywide Event Coordination and Management and the Street Activity Permit Office and those are a lot of words.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tolson has worked in New York City government for a decade. Her office issues permits for many types of events. Street fairs and farmers markets, festivals, and of course the Macy's parade. We told her we were trying to put together the costs of the parade and she did give us a little bit of pricing information.

[Dawn Tolson]

An application fee is non refundable and that's $25. And then it ranges from zero, no cost whatsoever, up to something that be 66k per block depending on the use of space and the impact.

[Stephen Dubner]

The Macy's parade uses 40 plus blocks and it is undeniably high impact. Does that mean that Macy's pays the city something like $3,000,000? 40 some blocks times 66k per block?

[Dawn Tolson]

Oh, well, I can't say how much they pay. Good try. Macy's is a partner with the city. They put on two very iconic events in New York City that are birthdays and holiday events for America.

[Stephen Dubner]

The other one she's talking about is the Macy's fourth of July fireworks, which no offense to fireworks, is nowhere near as big a deal as the parade.

[Dawn Tolson]

And so we know the importance of that and we work with them. But I can say that they do work really hard with us to make sure that we are very cognizant of the amount of resources that we're using, that we're not overextending, that we're also being fair to the employees and the workers.

[Stephen Dubner]

When Tolson talks about the resources the city is using, these are serious resources, including law enforcement and emergency crews. Here is Will Coss again from Macy's.

[Will Coss]

The security plan is a quite detailed plan.

[Stephen Dubner]

You could imagine if you were throwing a parade for three and a half million people on the sidewalks and 30 million people watching a live broadcast that you would invest a lot in security planning and execution.

[Will Coss]

There's a variety of personnel that are visible on the parade route and other layers of security that are less visible.

[Dawn Tolson]

Hats off to the NYPD. There are people out there that were there since 1am in the morning putting barricades in place and moving vehicles around so you don't even hear a car honking. Then you've got, you know, counterterrorism working with the FBI on any kind of threat. You've got taru, their technical assistance unit, who are doing the counter drone stuff with the FBI. And then you've got the dcpi, their press group, doing press conferences with their chief of departments and Chief of patrols. So basically you're enacting the entire NYPD.

[Stephen Dubner]

And what does it cost to enact the entire nypd? And how much of that comes from Macy's? The parade, for all its goodwill and vibes, is a commercial event. So you could imagine Macy's contributing heavily to the city services. On the other hand, even if you don't buy my argument that New York City is the real star of the show, the city does get a lot out of the parade. When I was a kid and saw the parade on tv, I barely noticed the floats and balloons. I was staring at Central park west to a farm boy, which is what I was. The balloons and floats were cute, but the fantasy was New York. So does New York City kick in all those resources for free for the Macy's parade? Does the cost of the permit itself cover all these services? Those are questions that no one would directly answer on either the city side or the Macy's side. And there are other city resources to talk about, other city agencies that get involved.

[Dawn Tolson]

We have four walkthroughs with all of those agencies, as in we're walking the route four times. In New York City, the city of Scaffolding, there's a lot of obstructions along the path, and so we have to walk that path to see what construction's going on, what potholes are in the street, what is up above.

[Stephen Dubner]

Street lamps. For instance, in 1997, the parade was held on a very windy day at Central Park west and 72nd Street. The six story tall cat in the hat balloon hit a lamppost and knocked off part of it. Several people were injured, including one woman who was in a coma for 24 days. Macy's and the city now work together to prevent that kind of thing. Wilcox again.

[Will Coss]

All of our balloons and floats starting up at 77th street and all the way through 34th Street. That entire parade route has to be cleared of any aerial obstruction.

[Stephen Dubner]

This clearing process includes what Koss calls light swings.

[Will Coss]

We have a team to physically move all of the light poles out of the way. So they're loosening them and then we're actually swinging all of the poles. It's done. Under the dark of night and dawn.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tolson again.

[Dawn Tolson]

Sanitation. We haven't even talked about sanitation. I didn't know this until a couple years ago that there's a special unit that deals with the horse refuse.

[Stephen Dubner]

This horse refuse comes from the NYPD and Parks Department mounted units that march in the parade.

[Dawn Tolson]

So we forgot to call them. One year. It was not pretty.

[Jessica Tisch]

One of our responsibilities is to clean up the horse poop.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is Jessica Tisch. When we spoke with her, she was New York's sanitation commissioner.

[Jessica Tisch]

We have one to two sanitation workers for every four to five horses.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tish has just been named commissioner of the nypd. As sanitation commissioner, her job was to make the parade route as photogenic as possible on Thanksgiving Day, from 8:30am Eastern Time until noon, those streets, about 42.

[Jessica Tisch]

Blocks, they need to sparkle because New Yorkers and people from around the world all converge on that part of the city. And we want those streets to look really good after. The parade is obviously a huge effort. We have about 150 sanitation workers who are involved in the post parade cleanup. They are doing manual cleaning with brooms and baskets, but also our mechanical brooms which can sweep 1500 pounds of litter, are out in full force. About 71,000 pounds of trash is collected by the Department of Sanitation as part of the cleanup of the Thanksgiving Day parade.

[Stephen Dubner]

Once again, we couldn't learn anything significant about how these costs are allocated or perhaps shared. New York City plainly derives value from the parade. There's the marketing value of the broadcast, but also three and a half million in person spectators generate a lot of economic activity. How much those numbers too are shock of shocks hard to come by? If we began this episode hoping to run even a rough cost benefit analysis of the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, we have failed. Too many of the costs are privately held. We can guesstimate the overall TV ad revenues, but we don't know how that money is split between Macy's and NBC and whatever agencies or other middlemen are involved. So we took one more shot. We asked to speak to the man.

[Tony Spring]

At the top, Tony Spring, chairman and CEO of Macy's Inc.

[Stephen Dubner]

So Macy's refers to the parade as, quote, a privately sponsored and privately funded event and is regarded by Macy's as a its annual gift to the nation. I understand that as with most gifts, you don't tell people how much the gift costs when you're giving it to them. But why is it so important that no one knows how much the parade costs? Because we've been trying to figure it out and really failing.

[Tony Spring]

Why do I need to know how much lion can cost to produce?

[Stephen Dubner]

But I can figure that out.

[Tony Spring]

Okay, go to the Hayden Planetarium. And what did it cost?

[Stephen Dubner]

I can figure that one out too. Tony, I can't figure out the parade.

[Tony Spring]

I guarantee you you're bright enough, much brighter than me, you can figure this out. But I would like to focus more on the fact that 100 years later, 98 parades later, this thing is still relevant. And it's a great example of if we were still marching animals up and down the street, it wouldn't be as relevant today. But the fact that it evolved over time and includes a level of modernity, includes a level of history, floats that have been there over the years, floats that are new this year, balloons that are new this year, that is just like the fireworks, I think, what makes it such an amazing spectacular.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, so the Macy's parade is still relevant. Here's a bigger question, especially for Tony Spring. Is Macy's still relevant? Coming up next time in part two of our series, Brick and mortar retail has been declining for years and Macy's is planning to close 100, 150 of their stores. Tony Spring took over less than a year ago and he is pushing for a renaissance. At least he's optimistic.

[Tony Spring]

Now is the time to buy Macy's.

[Stephen Dubner]

Next time we go deep with Tony Spring and we get another view too.

[Jeff Kinney]

Macy's has a hell of a challenge.

[Will Coss]

Over the next few years to remain.

[Jeff Kinney]

Upright, let alone become successful as they once were.

[Stephen Dubner]

We also visited visit Wimpy Kid author Jeff Kinney up in Massachusetts, where he is trying to launch his own retail renaissance.

[Jeff Kinney]

If you invest in your downtown, can you change the fate of a town? And I don't know the answer to that.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's next time on the show. Until then, take care of yourself and if you can, someone else too. Also, if you'd like to learn more about helium, be sure be sure to follow another podcast we make, the Economics of Everyday Things. Host Zachary Crockett went deep on helium supply and demand in an episode that will be out very soon. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app. [e-mail] where we publish transcripts and show notes. This episode was produced by Alina Coleman. We also had recording help from Alexander Overington. And special thanks this week to Thomas Recupero for the research paper and to Harlan Coben. Our staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abuaji, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Jasmine Klinger, Jason Gambrell, Jeremy Johnston, John Schnarz, Lyric Bowditch, Morgan Levy, Neal Carruth, Rebecca Lee Douglas, Sarah Lilly, Teo Jacobs and Zach Lipinski. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers. Our composer is Luis Guerra. As always, thank you for listening.

[Dawn Tolson]

When I see a crowd, I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute, did I issue a permit for that?

[Jen Neal]

The Freakonomics Radio Network the Hidden side of Everything.

[Dawn Tolson]

Stitcher.

[Stephen Dubner]

Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Toyota Psst did you know Toyota has an all electric SUV, the BZ4X? It's a secret worth sharing. Skip gas stations and feel the thrill of electric driving from a brand you can trust. The BZ4X features smart tech that keeps you connected on every drive and its modern design helps you stand out in the right ways. It's all electric and it's all real. The Toyota BZ4X. Learn [e-mail] Toyota let's go places. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Robert Half Robert Half research indicates nine out of 10 hiring managers are having difficulty hiring. If you have open roles, chances are you are feeling this too. That's why you need Robert Half. Their specialized recruiting professionals engage their skills with their award winning AI to connect businesses of all sizes with highly skilled talent in finance and accounting, technology, marketing and creative, legal and administrative and customer support. At Robert Half they know talent. Visit roberthaff.com today the kind of burgers you get today tells you a lot about yourself.

[Jeff Kinney]

You're either someone who settles for sex, same old same old burgers or you're.

[Stephen Dubner]

At a Carl's Jr obsessed with a tangy OG Western bacon cheeseburger, demanding a house made guacamole, loaded guac bacon, fired.

[Jeff Kinney]

Up for the insanely hot El Diablo or craving a classic char world famous star.

[Stephen Dubner]

Give into your flavored cravings.

[Will Coss]

Get your mouth to Carl's Jr.

[John Chaney]

Good Burger.