Podcast Summary: Freakonomics Radio Episode 622 – "Why Does Everyone Hate Rats?"

Release Date: February 14, 2025
Host: Stephen J. Dubner
Title: Freakonomics Radio
Episode Title: Why Does Everyone Hate Rats?
Duration: Approximately 45 minutes
Transcript Coverage: [00:00] – [45:22]

Introduction to the "Rat Problem" in New York City

The episode opens with a provocative exploration of the pervasive dislike for rats, particularly in urban environments like New York City. Stephen Dubner introduces the central theme by highlighting a controversial job listing posted by New York City's Mayor, Eric Adams, aimed at hiring an individual dedicated to rat mitigation. Dubner points out the depth of Adams's resentment towards rats, framing them as "Public enemy number one" and emphasizing the mayor's unwavering commitment to combating them despite his legal troubles.

Notable Quote:

Stephen Dubner [00:45]: "Rats do something to traumatize you. And I hate rats. That is Eric Adams, the mayor of New York City."

Interview with Kathy Karate: NYC’s Rat Czar

Dubner interviews Kathy Karate, the Director of Rodent Mitigation for New York City, affectionately known as the "Rat Czar." She delves into her personal history with rats, tracing her early experiences growing up adjacent to railroad tracks where rat infestation was a persistent issue. Her professional journey from biology and urban sustainability to her current role illustrates the complexities of managing rat populations in one of the world's most densely populated cities.

Key Points:

• Rat Biology and Behavior: Rats thrive in urban settings due to their close proximity to human activities, making sanitation the cornerstone of effective pest management.
• Challenges in Rat Mitigation: One-time efforts, like cleaning harborage areas, offer temporary relief as rat populations quickly rebound, necessitating ongoing and comprehensive strategies.
• Impact on Public Health and Mental Well-being: Rats contribute to infrastructure damage (e.g., chewing through wires) and pose health risks through diseases like leptospirosis, though such incidents are relatively rare in large populations.

Notable Quotes:

Kathy Karate [07:36]: "It is true. I grew up in a house that was abutting railroad tracks. And what you need to know about rats... they need a place to live and they need food to eat."

Kathy Karate [08:27]: "Most people, when they think about sanitation, generally do not think of New York City. But trash on the sidewalks represents paradise for rats."

Historical Context: Rats and the Black Death

The conversation shifts to the historical association between rats and the spread of the bubonic plague, famously known as the Black Death. Science journalist Bethany Brookshire provides a nuanced view, challenging the long-held belief that rats were the primary vectors of this devastating pandemic.

Key Points:

• Plague Transmission Misconceptions: Brookshire explains that the traditional view attributing the Black Death to rats and their fleas lacks substantial historical and archaeological evidence.
• Alternative Transmission Models: Professor Nils Christian Stenseth introduces the idea that human ectoparasites (like body lice and human fleas) were more likely responsible for the rapid spread of the plague, aligning better with historical mortality rates and the speed of dissemination.

Notable Quotes:

Bethany Brookshire [12:29]: "We really hate them. We hate their success because their success feels like our failure."

Nils Christian Stenseth [16:07]: "And in 2018, Stenseth and his colleagues published a paper... they presented a different model."

Nils Christian Stenseth [22:02]: "It became very clear that rat could not have played a major role in the spread of plague in Europe."

Economic Perspectives: Insights from Ed Glazer

Ed Glazer, an economist from Harvard University, discusses the economic implications of rat populations in urban settings. He contextualizes rats as agents of negative externalities, contributing to public health risks and infrastructure damage while questioning any potential positive impacts.

Key Points:

• Economic Externalities: Rats impose costs on cities through property damage and health risks, necessitating public expenditure on mitigation efforts.
• Urban Success and Rat Proliferation: Glazer observes that successful urban environments inadvertently support thriving rat populations, which in turn can amplify public health and economic challenges.
• Post-Pandemic Rat Surge: The surge in rat populations post-COVID-19 is attributed to diminished city services and increased food availability from outdoor dining setups.

Notable Quotes:

Ed Glazer [22:27]: "Blaming the rat is pretty much, you know, game over in terms of the rat's global reputation."

Ed Glazer [24:51]: "Rats are... they're agents of usually negative externalities within cities."

Cultural Perceptions: Beyond Western Views

Bethany Brookshire elaborates on the diverse cultural perceptions of rats, contrasting Western disdain with reverence in other societies. She highlights the Temple of Karni Mata in India, where rats are considered sacred and are revered rather than vilified.

Key Points:

• Subjectivity of Animal Villainy: The classification of animals as pests is largely subjective and influenced by cultural contexts rather than inherent traits of the animals themselves.
• Sacred Rats: In Deshnoge, India, approximately 25,000 black rats are worshipped as reincarnations of humans, receiving care and reverence from devotees.
• Historical Shifts in Perception: Brookshire discusses how societal roles and necessities dictate the status of animals, using pigeons as an example of species whose reputations have declined as their practical uses faded.

Notable Quotes:

Bethany Brookshire [31:42]: "I'm the author of the 2022 book How Humans Create Animal Villains."

Bethany Brookshire [37:23]: "The fact that we're so quick to blame the rat says a lot about us."

Economic and Urban Policy Recommendations

Kathy Karate emphasizes the importance of effective waste management as a critical factor in controlling rat populations. She argues that consistent and thorough sanitation efforts can significantly reduce the availability of food sources for rats, thereby mitigating their proliferation.

Key Points:

• Waste Management: Removing trash bags from streets is identified as the single most effective measure in reducing rat populations.
• Public Health Policies: While acknowledging that leptospirosis cases are relatively low, Karate underscores the potential for emerging public health risks due to rats carrying novel viruses.

Notable Quotes:

Kathy Karate [44:45]: "I believe that the single biggest swing that you can take at the rat problem in New York City is getting the trash bags off of the streets."

Conclusion and Future Directions

Dubner wraps up the episode by teasing a second part of the series, promising to delve deeper into strategies for managing rat populations and exploring successful rat-free environments. The episode underscores the multifaceted nature of human-rat interactions, intertwining historical misconceptions, economic impacts, and cultural narratives.

Notable Quotes:

Stephen Dubner [43:46]: "Could I interest you in Sympathy for the Rat?"

Ed Glazer [44:45]: "Sympathy for a creature that, you know, coexisted with us... seems like it makes more sense."

Key Takeaways:

1. Complex Relationship: The human relationship with rats is intricate, influenced by historical events, economic factors, and cultural perceptions.
2. Misattributed Blame: Traditional beliefs about rats as primary vectors of the Black Death are being reexamined, with potential alternative explanations gaining traction.
3. Urban Challenges: Effective rat mitigation requires comprehensive strategies focused on sanitation and waste management, highlighting the broader challenges of maintaining urban hygiene.
4. Cultural Relativity: The perception of rats varies globally, demonstrating that societal values and cultural narratives significantly shape how animals are viewed and treated.
5. Economic Implications: Rats represent negative externalities in urban economies, necessitating public policies that balance control measures with humane treatment.

Notable Moments and Quotes with Timestamps:

• [00:45] Stephen Dubner: "Rats do something to traumatize you. And I hate rats. That is Eric Adams, the mayor of New York City."

• [07:36] Kathy Karate: "I grew up in a house that was abutting railroad tracks... they need a place to live and they need food to eat."

• [12:29] Bethany Brookshire: "We really hate them. We hate their success because their success feels like our failure."

• [16:07] Nils Christian Stenseth: "In 2018, Stenseth and his colleagues published a paper... they presented a different model."

• [22:27] Ed Glazer: "Blaming the rat is pretty much... game over in terms of the rat's global reputation."

• [31:42] Bethany Brookshire: "I'm the author of the 2022 book How Humans Create Animal Villains."

• [37:23] Bethany Brookshire: "The fact that we're so quick to blame the rat says a lot about us."

• [44:45] Kathy Karate: "I believe that the single biggest swing that you can take at the rat problem in New York City is getting the trash bags off of the streets."

• [43:46] Stephen Dubner: "Could I interest you in Sympathy for the Rat?"

Final Thoughts

Episode 622 of Freakonomics Radio offers a comprehensive exploration of the ubiquitous disdain for rats, dissecting it through historical, economic, and cultural lenses. By engaging with experts like Kathy Karate, Bethany Brookshire, and Ed Glazer, Dubner provides listeners with a multifaceted understanding of why rats are so vilified and what can be done to manage their populations effectively in urban environments. The episode challenges preconceived notions and encourages a more empathetic and informed approach to dealing with one of humanity's oldest adversaries.