629. How Is Live Theater Still Alive?

Summary

Freakonomics Radio
Episode 629: How Is Live Theater Still Alive?
Host: Stephen J. Dubner
Release Date: April 11, 2025

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Introduction: The Enduring Allure of Live Theater

Timestamp: [01:03]

Stephen Dubner opens the episode by exploring the persistence of live theater amidst the rise of digital and virtual entertainment. He introduces Rocco Landesman, a prominent Broadway producer and former chair of the National Endowment for the Arts, who offers a candid look into the economics and passion that sustain live theater.

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The Economics of Broadway: High Stakes and Low Returns

Timestamp: [06:18]

Rocco Landesman delves into the financial challenges of Broadway productions, likening them to horse racing:

"It's a terrible investment, the Broadway theater. It's about, like, horse racing... 15 to 20% of the shows that are put on Broadway earn their money back."
[06:18]

Landesman highlights that with such a low return on investment (ROI), the allure of Broadway remains strong because investors "fall in love with the shows," driven by passion rather than profit.

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Creating from Imagination: The Birth of a Musical

Timestamp: [11:17]

The discussion shifts to the genesis of a new Broadway musical, "Three Summers of Lincoln," co-written by Joe DiPietro, Daniel Watts, and Crystal Monet Hall. Dubner recounts how, in the early stages, Landesman collaborated with DiPietro to transform an imaginative idea into a tangible production.

Quentyn Darrington, initially skeptical about the musical's potential, shares his early struggles:

"I'd like you to write a Broadway musical... I had no producing credential of any kind. My credibility was zilch."
[03:55]

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Development Challenges: From Concept to Workshop

Timestamp: [16:10]

The trio explains the conceptualization of "Three Summers of Lincoln," focusing on Abraham Lincoln's presidency during the Civil War and his relationship with abolitionist Frederick Douglass. Richard Winkler, co-producer, emphasizes the importance of factual accuracy and historical depth:

"What did Lincoln actually do? Let's get to the facts."
[16:10]

Despite initial reservations about combining historical figures with musical theater, the team persevered, driven by a desire to explore Lincoln's transformative leadership.

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Collaboration and Creativity: Crafting the Musical

Timestamp: [25:22]

Daniel Watts and Crystal Monet Hall bring their diverse talents to the project. Watts, a seasoned Broadway performer and spoken word artist, complements Hall's strengths as a singer-songwriter. Their collaboration resulted in the creation of original songs that blend narrative storytelling with musical expression.

Alan Shore, co-writer, reflects on their creative synergy:

"He's much more of a poet than I am, and he is much more of a linguist than I am... It really opened my eyes."
[27:23]

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Workshop Performance: Bringing the Musical to Life

Timestamp: [46:20]

The episode details a pivotal workshop performance of "Three Summers of Lincoln" at the La Jolla Playhouse, a renowned regional theater known for nurturing Broadway-bound productions. The workshop featured over 100 attendees, including potential investors and theater stakeholders, who responded enthusiastically to the evolving musical.

Crystal Monet Hall praises the dynamic relationship between Lincoln and Douglass portrayed in the show:

"Watching how a person moves from a very lawyerly careful and incrementalist way of thinking towards somebody who is capable of bold, radical action."
[47:26]

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Casting Brilliance: Brian Stokes Mitchell as Abraham Lincoln

Timestamp: [51:24]

A standout moment in the development process was casting Brian Stokes Mitchell, a beloved Broadway performer, as Abraham Lincoln. Despite initial doubts, the creative team believed Mitchell's gravitas and charisma were perfect for the role.

Alan Shore recounts the unconventional casting decision:

"They both wrote Stokes as Lincoln... So Daniel and Chris took him out to dinner, and he goes, 'Well, now I'm interested.'"
[55:25]

This choice sparked discussions about historical accuracy and artistic interpretation, adding a layer of depth to the portrayal of Lincoln.

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Implementation Hurdles: Financial and Logistical Struggles

Timestamp: [37:33]

Producing a Broadway musical is fraught with financial demands. Richard Winkler explains that initial funding for "Three Summers of Lincoln" was "mid to high six figures," covering workshops, hiring writers, and other developmental expenses. As the project progressed, securing additional investment became necessary to transition from workshop to full production.

Alan Shore highlights the disparity between theater and film financing:

"For theater, they're much more like 10, 20 if you're starting out... I'm at the point where I can ask for above 50, so..."
[39:16]

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Unexpected Setbacks: The Departure of a Lead Actor

Timestamp: [63:50]

Just as momentum built towards a Broadway-bound premiere, the production faced a significant setback when Brian Stokes Mitchell unexpectedly quit the project for personal reasons. This development sent ripples through the team, raising concerns about the show's viability and casting integrity.

Daniel Watts reflects on the impact of Mitchell's departure:

"And that should have been a hit too. I was a co-producer on that."
[64:55]

The episode teases further exploration of this incident and its consequences in the upcoming parts of the series.

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Conclusion: The Resilience of Live Theater

Timestamp: [63:55]

Stephen Dubner wraps up the episode by underscoring the resilience required to sustain live theater. Despite financial risks, creative challenges, and unforeseen obstacles, the passion of producers, creators, and performers keeps the magic of live theater alive.

Crystal Monet Hall encapsulates the emotional journey:

"We go up and we go down. We have hits, but in between those."
[63:50]

Dubner leaves listeners anticipating the next installment, which promises to delve deeper into the business side of theater and the hurdles facing productions like "Three Summers of Lincoln."

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Key Takeaways

• Passion Over Profit: Live theater thrives on the deep-seated passion of its creators and audiences, often at the expense of financial profitability.

• Creative Collaboration: Successful productions require diverse talents and collaborative synergy, as evidenced by the partnership between DiPietro, Watts, and Hall.

• Economic Realities: The high costs and low ROI of Broadway productions present significant challenges, necessitating persistent investment and innovation.

• Casting Dynamics: Strategic and sometimes unconventional casting choices can redefine character portrayals and add depth to storytelling.

• Resilience Amidst Setbacks: Unexpected challenges, such as key personnel departures, highlight the fragile yet enduring nature of live theater productions.

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Notable Quotes with Attribution

• Rocco Landesman:

  "It's a terrible investment, the Broadway theater... 15 to 20% of the racehorses that race at the tracks earn their oats."
  [06:18]

• Joe DiPietro:

  "I am just thinking, like, I'm gonna do it no matter what it is."
  [17:37]

• Crystal Monet Hall:

  "Watching how a person moves from a very lawyerly careful and incrementalist way of thinking towards somebody who is capable of bold, radical action."
  [47:26]

• Daniel Watts:

  "Oh my God, I made it this weekend."
  [41:27]

---

Episode Production Credits:
Produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. The series is produced by Alina Coleman with research assistance from Julie Kanfer. Mixing by Jasmine Clean and Jeremy Johnston. Special thanks to the Freakonomics Radio Network staff, including Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abawagi, Eleanor Osborne, and others.

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For more episodes and transcripts, visit freakonomics.com or find Freakonomics Radio on your favorite podcast platform.

Transcript

[Stephen Dubner]

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[Rocco Landesman]

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[Stephen Dubner]

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[Rocco Landesman]

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[Stephen Dubner]

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[Rocco Landesman]

As of January 1, 2025, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch terms [e-mail].

[Stephen Dubner]

Making something out of nothing is hard. In the beginning, all you have is your imagination. It's your only tool, your only muscle. But if you are determined and lucky, that thing in your imagination can become real. And then, if you are very lucky, people will pay to see it.

[Quentyn Darrington]

There's been theater since the beginning of man. Really, what is theater? What is going to theater and being in a theater? What is it? What happens? What transpires at that moment? It's the same as the oldest human endeavor of all, which is gossip. Theater is gossip. This is a crazy idea, I know. Except that it's true. What do you do when you go to the theater? You overhear conversations. It's staged, but people are talking to each other and you're listening to them. You're making assessments about their moral character, about their intentions, about what's going to happen. This guy's not trustworthy. She's ambitious and is concealing it. He's got designs on this. There's nothing more human and more basic to what human beings do than observing people interact and talking about it among themselves. Gossiping. So theater is the most fundamental art of all.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is Rocco Landesman I'm a Broadway.

[Quentyn Darrington]

Producer and the former chair of the National Endowment for the Arts.

[Stephen Dubner]

I've known Rocco for a long time. He was one of the first important people I got to know when I was starting out as a writer in New York, and he was easily one of the most interesting too. Very sharp and also very blunt, with a reputation as a Bit of a rogue, which he seemed to enjoy when he was starting out. The thing in his imagination was a musical that he wanted to call Big River. The plan was to take an American.

[Quentyn Darrington]

Literary classic, Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn, it was my favorite novel, and set it.

[Stephen Dubner]

To music with new songs by the country legend Roger Miller.

[Quentyn Darrington]

I thought, and still do think, that Roger Miller is the greatest songwriter in American history.

[Brian Stokes Mitchell]

King of the road.

[Stephen Dubner]

When Landisseman heard that Miller was playing a club date in New York, he went to the show, and afterward he talked his way backstage.

[Quentyn Darrington]

I said, I'd like you to write a Broadway musical. He basically didn't know what I was talking about. Not only had he never written a Broadway musical, he'd never seen one. So he kind of pawned me off into his wife, Mary, and she said, well, write a letter. I wrote him a letter and didn't get a reply.

[Stephen Dubner]

And your credentials as a producer at this point were what?

[Quentyn Darrington]

Basically nil. I had been a professor at the Yale School of Drama for a number of years. I had no producing credential of any kind. My credibility was zilch. So I wrote a letter and don't get a reply. I write another letter and don't get a reply. I write another one. And months go by and nothing's happening. I keep writing. And finally I got a note call, actually, from one of his managers who said, you seem to be pretty insistent about this and pretty serious. Why don't you meet with Roger and tell him what you have in mind?

[Stephen Dubner]

So Landisman flew out to Reno, where Miller was performing, and once again, he went backstage afterwards.

[Quentyn Darrington]

It was one of the thrills of my life to be backstage with Roger Miller with his guitar and singing his songs. He didn't remember the lyrics to all of the songs, but I knew them all. So whenever we would come to a point where he couldn't remember a line, I knew it. And he said, so what's this about a musical? How does that work? I said, well, you have a book and you have a score. Someone writes the story, and you have music and lyrics, and you're gonna do the music and lyrics. And he says, but there's a book, right? I said, yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

He says, well, get me the book now. There was no book yet.

[Quentyn Darrington]

There wasn't anything. That's the show that I'll always love the most. It's like your first child. It's special to me.

[Stephen Dubner]

And.

[Quentyn Darrington]

And it was also a show that I created. I came up with the idea. I put the whole team Together. And luckily it worked. It was a hit. It won seven Tony Awards and Best Musical and ran over a thousand performances. I wouldn't have a career if it weren't for that show. I wouldn't have a career at all.

[Stephen Dubner]

But of course, Landesman did have a career, a big one. He produced several more hits. A Guys and Dolls revival, Angels in America, the Producers. And he wound up running Jujamson Theaters, the third largest Broadway landlord. So when a Freakonomics radio listener wrote in to say that they'd always wondered about the economics of live theater and that we should make a series about that, Rocco was one of the first people I thought of. Not just because he knows things. There are plenty of people in the industry who know things, but because he is willing to say them, which many people are not. For instance, I asked him about a couple of recent Broadway disasters. $25 million musicals that bombed.

[Quentyn Darrington]

It's a terrible investment, the Broadway theater. It's about, like, horse racing. I've owned racehorses, and I've owned theaters, and I've produced Broadway shows. 15 to 20% of the shows that are put on Broadway earn their money back. And it's the same with racehorses. 15 to 20% of the racehorses that race at the tracks earn their oats.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, so with such a terrible ROI for Broadway production, why do people invest?

[Quentyn Darrington]

They can't help themselves. They fall in love with the shows.

[Stephen Dubner]

So today on Freakonomics radio, investors who fall in love with shows, performers who fall in love with the stage, and audiences who fall in love with the whole enterprise. There is, of course, one huge problem.

[Quentyn Darrington]

The problem is that it's very, very expensive. There's no economy of scale, and there's no economy of mechanization. It's handmade live, every night.

[Stephen Dubner]

So here's the In a time with so much entertainment, including an infinite stream of digital and virtual entertainments, how can it be that this very expensive, handmade, live every night thing even exists? Theater isn't going away. People telling stories is not going away. We take a hard look at theatrical finances. Are you trying to get me killed? We try to figure out what drives these creators.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

I feel like every theater maker has a secret desire to change the world.

[Stephen Dubner]

And we follow one new musical from the very beginning.

[Daniel Watts]

One wrong decision. You're dead and you don't know it.

[Stephen Dubner]

To what will someday be the end.

[Joe DiPietro]

There's a long way to go. Yes, there is There's a long way to go. I guess I should be knocking wood.

[Stephen Dubner]

Please take your seats. Our show is about to begin.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with.

[Stephen Dubner]

Your host, Stephen Dubner. The live theater industry in the US is estimated at under 6 billion a year, with around 27,000 employees. So not very big. But there is a lot going on beneath the surface that most of us don't see when we buy a ticket. You could imagine a pyramid with Broadway at the top. Broadway is both a goal and the engine that drives a lot of the activity. Further down the pyramid in regional and repertory theaters, most of which are non profits, in community theater and high school and college theater, and in any number of church halls and garages and living rooms where someone decides to put on a show. But the Broadway economy is by far the most visible and the most influential. Over the past couple decades, it has gotten much more expensive to produce shows on Broadway, and ticket prices have also spiked. The average now is around $130. This leads some people to conclude that Broadway is unsustainable, that it is sick and perhaps dying. But keep in mind that people have been saying that forever. One of Broadway's many nicknames is the Fabulous Invalid, which comes from a Kaufman Hart play first produced in 1938. Lately, you may have seen encouraging headlines about Broadway box office, like when George Clooney decides to star in a play for a few months. This led one producer to complain that throwing movie stars at the Broadway model is just a way of cauterizing the bleeding. By the way, that producer was Scott Rudin, who had been sent into exile for throwing a stapler at his assistant, among other allegations. One thing about Broadway, it is not dull. This series won't be dull either. We will tell you about the real estate cartel that controls Broadway, the theatrical unions that get good wages for their members and drive producers absolutely crazy. The performers and other creatives who, in pursuit of their dreams, are willing to scrape by on relatively low pay. We thought the best way to tell this story was to follow one show. So that's what we'll do, with plenty of tangents. The show we're going to follow began five years ago as nothing but an idea. It is now significantly through its gestation period, but not yet on Broadway and with no guarantee it will ever get there. So let's start with the writer.

[Alan Shore]

My name is Joe DiPietro. I write plays and musicals, and on the new musical Three Summers of Lincoln, I am the book writer, meaning I write the script.

[Stephen Dubner]

And the co lyricist, DiPietro remembers exactly how he started down this career path. His parents took him to see the musical 1776 on Broadway.

[Alan Shore]

It was the first show I saw as a, I don't know, 10 year old. I can still remember where I was sitting in the mezzanine and the lights came up on the Continental Congress. I was like, put a fork in me. I'm done. I'm gonna be a part of this somehow.

[Stephen Dubner]

He has now been writing for more than 30 years. His credits include the musical Memphis, for which DiPietro won two Tony Awards, and All Shook up, an Elvis Presley jukebox musical. So what is this new show he's working on? Three Summers of Lincoln.

[Alan Shore]

Three Summers of Lincoln picks up in the second summer of the Civil War when things are going terribly and there is no end in sight. It is a brutal, bloody war. Lincoln needs to figure out how to end this and he just can't. The south is fighting stronger than he thought.

[Stephen Dubner]

Where'd the idea come from? Was this sprung from the brain of Joe DiPietro?

[Alan Shore]

It did not sprung from my brain. Quite the opposite. I was sitting at home in the first December of the Pandemic. Theater was dead. I make my living as a writer on royalties from my productions all over the world, and there were exactly zero productions happening. It was a scary, uncertain time. And I get a call one day out of the blue from two producers I know and who invested in my shows named Richard Winkler and Alan Shore.

[Richard Winkler]

Alan Shore. I am the general partner for Three Summers of Lincoln.

[Daniel Watts]

Richard Winkler, general partner of Three Summers.

[Richard Winkler]

Of Lincoln this was our idea from the very inception.

[Daniel Watts]

It all has to start with the idea and the art, and then you figure out how to finance it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Richard Winkler worked for years on Broadway as a lighting designer.

[Daniel Watts]

I met hundreds of producers who I didn't think had very good taste and spent money in stupid, ridiculous ways. I kept thinking that I wanted to be a producer. When I turned 60 and had this realization that I don't want to be in the theater till midnight anymore, I said, well, I'm going to try this.

[Stephen Dubner]

That was 16 years ago. Alan Shore, who lives in Boston, spent most of his career in financial services. He started producing around 12 years ago. So what does a Broadway producer actually do? Here's Shore.

[Richard Winkler]

The best way I can analogize it is the producer or the lead producer is the CEO of a company that is producing a piece, piece of live theater. They're ultimately responsible for every decision that gets made.

[Stephen Dubner]

What have been your greatest hits as a producer thus far?

[Richard Winkler]

Leopoldstadt was the most recent. Prior to that, Lehman trilogy, I was involved With Come from Away, I will stop there.

[Stephen Dubner]

Have you had flops?

[Richard Winkler]

Flops? Yeah, we had one. It was called Diana.

[Stephen Dubner]

Diana, as in Diana, Princess of Wales? It was a musical also written by Joe DePietro, and it was scheduled to open on Broadway in March of 2020. Then came Covid. All 41 Broadway theaters shut down for what turned out to be 18 months. So what do you do now if you're a producer who has already spent millions to develop a show?

[Richard Winkler]

We had a production that we thought was great. So why not bring the cast back in a healthy way and live, capture it on stage and sell it to Netflix? Came to the production, said, we'd like to do this.

[Stephen Dubner]

And so a filmed stage version of Diana premiered on Netflix in October 2021. Critics hated it and so did viewers. Cringeworthy, they called it, and exploitative and tawdry. The Guardian named Diana the year's most hysterically awful hate watch.

[Richard Winkler]

When you have a new musical and you try to live capture it, you don't get the essence of really what's there. And so although it was a great idea at the time, some great ideas just don't necessarily work.

[Stephen Dubner]

The producers did finally bring Diana Live to Broadway. It didn't work there either. It closed after barely a month and reportedly lost around $10 million. Maybe Princess Diana just wasn't the right character to build a new around. So how about Abraham Lincoln? I asked Alan Shore to explain the genesis of that idea.

[Richard Winkler]

It first started the summer 2020 during COVID where none of us had anything to do but sit around and think. Literally, when George Floyd was murdered, our president at the time had mentioned that he had done more for black people than anybody since Abraham Lincoln. And that started me thinking, well, what did Lincoln actually do? Let's get to the facts. I had, obviously, books about Abraham Lincoln. I saw the movie Lincoln that Steven Spielberg produced, but that only told the story from 1864 through 1865. So the question in my mind is, what happened before that? How did Lincoln get there? So I called Richard, my partner, and I said, what do you think about doing a musical about Abraham Lincoln?

[Daniel Watts]

To which I said, those two words do not belong in the same sentence.

[Stephen Dubner]

Because why not?

[Daniel Watts]

Richard Lincoln and musical. I just didn't think they did.

[Richard Winkler]

So I said, well, I don't know if it does or not, but what else have we got to do? Let's explore it. And the first person that I called was an acquaintance, Doris Kearns Goodwin, who I thought was the authority on Abraham Lincoln.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's a pretty Handy acquaintance to have.

[Richard Winkler]

Well, she lives in Boston, so that helps. So I called her and asked her and her producing partner if this would be something she'd be interested in participating in. And fortunately for us, she readily agreed.

[Daniel Watts]

And then we called Joe DePietro and.

[Alan Shore]

They said, hey, Joe, we are commissioning some of our favorite writers. We just have a topic we'll give you, and then you can write anything you want about it. This was like a miracle. And I like Richard and Alan very much. So I'm just thinking, like, I'm gonna do it no matter what it is.

[Stephen Dubner]

Juggling mermaids. Fine, I'll write that.

[Alan Shore]

That'll work. That'll work. When do you want it? And they said, we want you to write a musical about Abraham Lincoln. I don't think I said this out loud, but my first thought was, absolutely not. That is a terrible idea. I'm just thinking, like, how does Lincoln sing? What is it about? And the Civil War, it was so awful. I was just thinking like, no.

[Daniel Watts]

Joe said, no, no, no. This is not a good idea. I don't want to do this. We talked him into a conversation with somebody else.

[Stephen Dubner]

That was Doris Kearns Goodwin was the other conversation.

[Daniel Watts]

Yes. And they got along like a house of fire. And then Joe said, well, let me do some research.

[Alan Shore]

And then I thought, well, you know, so many great musicals start out as terrible ideas, right?

[Stephen Dubner]

Name some.

[Alan Shore]

A hip hop musical about a founding Father. Terrible idea. A musical about the sinking of the Titanic. That's a terrible idea. A musical about cannibalism. And it becomes Sweeney Todd. So you're like, all right, maybe that instinct, you should be a little more open.

[Stephen Dubner]

The hip hop musical about a founding Father was, of course, Hamilton by Lin Manuel Miranda. Hamilton was such a sensation that it seemed to change the rules for producers, creators, performers, the audience. It opened up new possibilities. But for Joe DiPietro, there was a puzzle to solve. Alexander Hamilton had been relatively obscure to most people. Abraham Lincoln, quite the opposite.

[Alan Shore]

There are more books published about Abraham Lincoln than anyone except for Jesus. And they're all, according to my calculation, about 800 pages long. I was like, I don't want to sit in my house during the pandemic. Reading 800 page books about the Civil War. Like, that is not fun.

[Stephen Dubner]

When you feel like you're getting overwhelmed by American political history. It must be nice to have Doris Kearns Goodwin on your side.

[Alan Shore]

She wrote a book called Leadership in Turbulent Times, which is about what she considers to be the four most effective presidents. I read this one chapter which said, during the last three summers of the Civil War, Mary Lincoln dragged Abraham to a place called the Soldier's Home, which was the first US Home for indigent soldiers. It had a little cottage that the previous President Buchanan used as a summer getaway from the heat in the swamp of D.C. so he spent his three summers there. And I thought, oh, well, that three summers gives you structure. And it turns out those three summers were really consequential because the first summer, he came up with the idea and then at the very end of the summer, decreed the Emancipation Proclamation. The second summer, one of his biggest critics, though on the same side as him, was the great abolitionist Frederick Douglass. And Frederick Douglass, who had been a thorn in his side, one day decides, I'm going to go to the White House and wait online with all of the other people who are waiting online to see the President, and I'm going to demand to speak with him and tell him that he's moving too slow and ending this war. So Frederick Douglass does that, and they talk, and they quickly recognize that they might not agree with their methods of how to end the war, but they couldn't deny each other's brilliant. And then the third summer, when things were really going bad, this time, Lincoln calls Frederick Douglass. Cause he has a mission for him that he thinks will help end the war. My question about this show is always, okay, fascinating historical thing, but how does it relate to today? How is it in conversation with activism today, and how is it in conversation with the presidency today? All of those questions. And once the Frederick Douglass aspect came in, they started to really interest me. Then I was like, you know, I'll write an outline. Pay me a little money. Let me write an outline, and see if I get hooked.

[Stephen Dubner]

DiPietro did get hooked, but he's a playwright, not a composer. And a musical isn't a musical without music. So. Coming up after the break, a nation on the edge.

[Joe DiPietro]

On the verge. The center can't hold when two ideas can't merge. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We will be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Rocket Money. You sign up for something, forget about it. After the trial period ends, then you're charged month after month after month. That's where Rocket Money comes in. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money's dashboard gives you a clear view of expenses across all accounts. You can create a personalized budget with custom categories to track spending and view monthly trends to see exactly where your money goes. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Freakonomics today that's RocketMoney.com Freakonomics RocketMoney.com Freakonomics Freakonomics radio is sponsored by Peloton Everyone has a reason to change. Growing old, Heartbreak, A fresh start the road through life's biggest moments can feel uncertain and even endless. But along the way, something unexpected happens. You grow. You get stronger, faster and more grounded, stepping into the best version of you Peloton is just there to help you along the way with workouts that challenge and motivation that keeps you coming back. With Peloton's tread, an all access membership, you can set your targets, track your progress and get stronger, making your fitness goals a reality. Thousands of members have had their lives changed by Peloton. What will you accomplish? Find your push. Find your power peloton visit1peloton.com Freakonomics radio is sponsored by Amica Insurance. At Amica, you will receive coverage with compassion. When you choose Amica, they'll take the time to explain your options for auto, home and life insurance. You can feel confident knowing that they'll protect what matters most to you. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to ameca.com and get a quote today. The playwright Joe DiPietro had been commissioned to write the script for a new musical about Abraham Lincoln. DiPietro is white, as was Lincoln, but the story is really about slavery, ending slavery, and the other main character is the black abolitionist Frederick Douglass.

[Alan Shore]

Given the subject matter of the show, I was like, oh, it would be great to have a lyricist who would look at the subject matter from a different perspective than I did. Daniel J. Watts was a star dancer in a Broadway show I wrote called Memphis back in 2009. He was fantastic and has been in probably dozens of shows by now. He also at the time was a spoken word artist. A budding spoken word artist. I went to see his spoken word performances and I was like, wow, God, he's really good.

[Stephen Dubner]

And so you thought, oh, he can write.

[Alan Shore]

I thought, he can write. I think I called him out of the blue. In the pandemic, when theater was literally dead, there was no hope and no future. And we were all broke.

[J]

He was like, hey, there's this project I'm working on and I need a co lyricist. I recognize that I cannot speak for a lot of these people. I wonder if he would be interested.

[Stephen Dubner]

And that is Daniel Watts.

[J]

I am a co lyricist and co choreographer for Three Summers of Lincoln.

[Stephen Dubner]

As a kid growing up in the Carolinas, Watts played sports. He took dance and gymnastics. He has always had a high level of energy.

[J]

Everyone was like, sit down, Daniel, sit down. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, sure, sure. I got things to do.

[Stephen Dubner]

Watts has been performing on Broadway since 2006. He was nominated for Tony Award for playing Ike Turner in Tina, the Tina Turner musical. He has also appeared in the Little Mermaid, the Color Purple, and yes, Hamilton. So what did he think about the idea of a Lincoln musical?

[J]

I was like, oh, Lord, that just sounds silly. Like, oh, no, Joe, why is this the thing you're calling about? You know, I've been waiting for years for you to call me and like, this is the thing. But only because how I'm used to seeing Lincoln depicted is what I was, you know, coming from. But the other thing is that time period of how America broke and then came back together is really fascinating to me.

[Alan Shore]

I just was really excited when he said yes, because I thought, like, oh, I am actually going to learn so much from him. Daniel is probably 20 years younger than me and from a very different background. In this particular collaboration, I am very much about story, story, story. How does this song start? What dramatically happens in the middle to change the trajectory of it and then how does it end in a new way? He's much more of a poet than I am, and he is much more of a linguist than I am. He loves the origin of words, so he'll often, like, break down a word, which is what oftentimes rappers do. It really opened my eyes and we went to my house in Connecticut to start this together.

[J]

He'd written Act 1, I think, had an outline of Act 2. We read through it first, and whatever jumped out at us personally, we kind of just made our own little notes. It was like, let's maybe try to write two or three songs while we're here.

[Alan Shore]

We sat on my porch and the first thing we wrote for some reason was a campfire song called Scarlet the Harlot. It's just basically a dirty song that Civil War soldiers used to sing. And then it becomes about Abraham Lincoln. And then Abe enters and interrupts them and they're singing this filthy song about Abe. So as you're giggling now, we essentially sat around my porch and giggled for a day and wrote this silly song that we always liked. We kept putting it in drafts and cutting it and putting it in drafts again.

[J]

Scarlet, the harlot that got cut quickly and then found its way back in, in the last six months.

[Stephen Dubner]

Why did it get cut?

[J]

We just didn't know where it went. You know, the story tells you what it is as you keep developing it. So how Scarlet ended up back was that we realized we didn't have any with Abraham and the soldiers, which we felt was very, very important.

[Stephen Dubner]

I haven't heard Scarlet yet. Can you sing me a little bit right now?

[J]

Scarlet the harlot the poor soldier's whore Open her legs as wide as a door that's all I can give you right now. It's Body. It's a very bawdy song that, you know. Hopefully it stays. You just never know.

[Stephen Dubner]

You never know the music and the lyrics. To me, it seems really, really hard to write lyrics for a musical first without the music. Is that not really hard? No.

[J]

Well, not for me. I don't want to speak for anybody else, or I only say for Joe and I, the poetry comes first. Right now, my musical theater nerd is going off in musical theater. First you say it, and then once the emotion overcomes you, you sing it. And if it's too much to sing, then you dance it. So it kind of goes the same way. Once you have lyrics, then you seek out composers that you think might both have music pouring out of them, but also would understand this story and want to apply their artistry to it.

[Stephen Dubner]

A composer, perhaps, like this one. And warning, there's a bit of off color language here.

[Joe DiPietro]

Scarlet the harlot the poor soldier's Whoa. Could open her legs as wide as a doll she'd welcome you in it wouldn't take long she'd pull off your pants and she'd pull on you down. My name is Crystal Monet Hall. I am a singer and a songwriter and a performer and a vocal arranger and a vocal producer and a composer and an educator. My mom has a beautiful voice, and I learned how to sing listening to her sing on Sunday mornings in church. I had my first solo in the choir when I was, like, I don't know, seven or eight.

[Stephen Dubner]

You remember what you sang?

[Joe DiPietro]

I do, I do. It's a song called I May Be Young.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can I hear a bit?

[Joe DiPietro]

The chorus is like, I may be young and never get old May not have money, silver and gold I Have a savior his name is Jesus I can feel him down in my soul and then my solo was like this. Oh, how I love him. That's how I sung it, too. Oh, how I love him it was like that.

[Stephen Dubner]

Sign me up for that church. And you went to the University of Virginia, correct?

[Joe DiPietro]

I did, yeah. It's a source of pride for me. My dad was in the first class of black people to ever matriculate there.

[Stephen Dubner]

You got a master's in education as well, is that right?

[Joe DiPietro]

I went to UVA for five and a half years. Got my master's, got two bachelor's degrees, and I took a position teaching high school English and drama in Charlottesville. And then I resigned on my birthday, which is October 1st, which means I taught for about a month.

[Stephen Dubner]

You loved it, huh?

[Joe DiPietro]

I loved it. No, I did, but I was like, I am not happy. I'm gonna go to New York and I'm gonna sing. And I don't even know if I knew what that meant. I guess in my mind I was gonna, like, lay across a piano in, like, a shiny dress.

[Stephen Dubner]

What was your first job?

[Joe DiPietro]

I came to New York. I auditioned, I took the first job I got. It was a Disney cruise line. And the next thing that I got was the Non Union tour of Rent. And I did that for a year.

[Stephen Dubner]

What's that like?

[Joe DiPietro]

It's like really short. Sits in cities. Like we would sleep on the floor of a bus. I mean, like a Greyhound bus. We didn't feel it at all. Could I do it today? Hell, no. But then I was ready for the world, honey. I was a road dog. After I did that Non Equity tour for a year, I went directly into the Broadway show.

[Stephen Dubner]

And you started as a swing, is that right?

[Joe DiPietro]

I started as a swing. I mostly played Joann and Mrs. Jefferson, the seasons of Love. Soloist. I closed it out. So I was there for about the last four or five years.

[Stephen Dubner]

Rent, like Hamilton, was another huge and groundbreaking Broadway hit. The kind of show that changes how people think about what's possible. Later in this series, we'll hear from Jeffrey Seller, a lead producer of both Rent and Hamilton. For Crystal Monet hall, performing in a Broadway hit was a great gig. But even a Union acting job barely covers the Rent. When the Rent is in New York City, almost every theatrical performer. As a side hustle, hall taught herself guitar and began writing songs. She went on tour with Mickey Hart of the Grateful Dead, and she released a record of her own. At one point she moved to California, but she soon came back to New York. She Performed in the Alicia Keys jukebox musical Hell's Kitchen at the Public Theater before the show moved to Broadway. And then she got a call from Joe DePietro and Daniel Watts about a new musical they were writing called Three Summers of Lincoln. Here's Di Pietro again.

[Alan Shore]

She had a self titled debut album and I was like, oh, I really like the sound of this. And I love what she does with melody. And so we had a chat and we gave her the script and we said, pick two or three songs and write something and send it to us.

[Stephen Dubner]

What'd she pick?

[Alan Shore]

What I very clearly remember her picking is the opening number, which is called 90 Day War. Initially a civil war, everyone thought it would last 90 days. And so by the second summer of the Civil War, it was over 400 days. And the big thing is an opening number. You want to introduce the sound of the show. All of those people sitting in the audience say, okay, you're writing a show about Abraham Lincoln. Prove that this is a good idea. Prove that this isn't Hamilton. Prove it's not 1776. Prove you have your own voice.

[Joe DiPietro]

The first lyrics in 90 Day War are A nation on the edge on the verge the center can't hold when two ideas can't merge.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can I hear a little bit of that?

[Joe DiPietro]

So it starts with everybody goes, whoa. Which I thought was so cute because it sort of sounds like the word war, but it like goes, a nation on the edge on the verge the center can hold when two ideas can't merge Whoa. You know what I mean? Suddenly we're in some sort of rock thing, but we're like in six, eight, and there's this military snare under it.

[Alan Shore]

The other song that she wrote was Pounding on the Rock, which Now opens Act 2. That is a song when Frederick Douglass and his son are trying to recruit folks for the 1st Black Regiment.

[Stephen Dubner]

We have the backing of the parade presidency pounding we must keep pounding, pounding.

[Joe DiPietro]

On the R.

[Alan Shore]

They're up in New England trying to get young black men to sign up for this war that young black men don't know why they should be fighting and dying for this country that has let them down at every place imaginable. It's this sort of rousing number. And I remember listening to her demo and minute into it without realizing it. I find myself standing up and, like, happily bouncing around. And the music was, you know, I wanted to join the army. It was just so exciting. I was like, I want to be in a room with this person for the next two years, three years Four years. However long it takes to create this musical.

[Stephen Dubner]

Two years, three, four years. Yes, it can easily take that long to create a musical. And who pays for all this? Well, it depends. In this case, the producers Alan Shore and Richard Winkler were writing the checks. Here's Shore.

[Richard Winkler]

Initially, my partner and I put up all the money. The reason for that, having come from the financial world, I've always looked at myself as a fiduciary. I am not willing to ask other people to put money into something that I don't feel comfortable with. And until we got to the point with Three Summers of Lincoln where we believed that we had something special, it was only at that point that we decided, okay, we're going to move to the next step. It's very expensive and we will bring in outside investors.

[Stephen Dubner]

At what point was that in the development in the show?

[Richard Winkler]

That was last November, December, when we did our three week workshop. Up until that point, essentially, myself and my partner were fully funding the project.

[Stephen Dubner]

And what did it cost up until that point?

[Richard Winkler]

Probably mid to high six figures. That went into hiring the people to write the show, the composer, the lyricist, the director, actors, actresses, for us to hear what it is that, that the writers actually came up with. That was a year and a half process where we had several workshops. And all of that cost money.

[Alan Shore]

Well, you generally get contracted for a series of drafts and I think it just depends who you are. That's Joe DePietro winning Tony Awards. My price increased, which was very, very nice. I always say the day after I won two Tony Awards, I wasn't a better writer, but everyone thought I was. Generally the advances for theater are much less than for movies. You hear about writers getting $50,000, $100,000 for movie stuff. For theater, they're much more like 10, 20 if you're starting out. I'm at the point where I can ask for above 50 or so.

[Stephen Dubner]

And here is Crystal Monet hall, the creative team.

[Joe DiPietro]

You get your upfront to work on the show, whatever that is. And that depends on, you know, how much cachet you have and how long you've been in the business and what you can command. But after that, you don't get paid, you don't get any money as you're going. You hope that it is something that is very, very lasting and that you will be able to get all of that back end. But that's not necessarily promised. It's a hope and faith thing, you know, you gotta love it. You gotta love it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Are you willing to tell me what you're Making for composing Three Summers of.

[Joe DiPietro]

Lincoln, I can say that first time composers are generally making for an upfront between 18 and 25,000.

[J]

Right now I am inside of the.

[Stephen Dubner]

Dream and that's Daniel Watts.

[J]

Like I literally flew in yesterday morning from Chicago. Cause I'm on a TV show called the Shy. I was like, hey guys, I gotta go fly back here to jump right into a workshop of a musical that I'm the co lyricist, the co choreographer of. Little Me is like, yeah. Older me is like, Daniel, you're doing a lot.

[Stephen Dubner]

How does your salary shooting a TV show compare to your salary and the time it takes also creating a musical?

[J]

Oh, it's night and day. It's just different economics, you know, when it comes to theater, there is a fixed amount of tickets that can be sold. There's only so much money that can come in. Also in theater you can only get paid if you're there. So if you miss a show, you lose pay, you get docked. That's just the economics of it versus TV film. I can show up and hit it and then I don't have to remember anything. I can leave it. I shot my whole episode in two days. That was two days of shooting. And I make a lot more money doing that. And there's also a residual check on the other side once it airs.

[Stephen Dubner]

So by the time Three Summers of Lincoln makes it to Broadway, assuming it makes it to Broadway, you will have been working on it for years by then. Years, right, years. And the fee that you get for being the co lyricist and choreographer on this show, you could make that much money in how many days or weeks of shooting TV or film?

[J]

I can make that in an episode. Oh my God, I made it this weekend.

[Stephen Dubner]

So basically we shoot. Be very grateful to TV and film for subsidizing theater work, essentially honestly. Yeah. The punishing economics notwithstanding, there came a time when the writing team of DiPietro, Watts and Hall had a real live Lincoln musical on paper ready to get up on its feet. But if you're going to make a musical about a big time historical figure, you will need a performer just as big time to play the role.

[Daniel Watts]

Brian Stokes Mitchell is an incredible star. He is exactly the right person to play the role.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's coming up after the break. I'm Stephen Dubner and this is Freakonomics Radio. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Walmart, actually designed to help you save more time and money. No statistics needed here. We all have reasons we need to save more time and money. Whether you are a busy parent dedicated pet, parent or student on a shoestring budget. Walmart Savings can be a lifesaver for anyone who shops at Walmart and wants to get even more savings. Another big plus is an included Paramount plus subscription so you can watch Blockbuster movies, original series and more. Walmart It's Walmart Plus plus free delivery, free shipping, gas discounts, video streaming plus so much more. Start a free 30 day trial at PlusWallmart.com See Walmart plus terms and conditions $35 order minimum Paramount plus essential plan only separate registration required. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Whole Foods Market At Whole Foods Market you can save every day. Look for the yellow low price signs that help you save money without compromising the quality you expect from Whole Foods Market. Find them with their responsibly farmed Atlantic salmon, no antibiotics ever, ground beef and boneless skinless chicken breasts. Plus more throughout the store. So basically, wherever you see yellow, you know you're saving money. Save on the best of spring with great everyday prices at Whole Foods Market. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. Dive into the market with E Trade's easy to use tools. Now there's even more to love. Get access to expert insights from Morgan Stanley to help navigate the markets. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Learn more@e trade.com terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley It's December 2023. We are in a big, well lit rehearsal space called Open Jar studios on the 11th floor of a building near the heart of the Broadway theater district. The theaters themselves are very visible with their marquees and their huge show posters, but the rest of the Broadway ecosystem is hidden away in buildings like this one. Not just rehearsal spaces, but production offices, ticketing agencies, PR firms and advertising firms, vocal and acting and dance coaches, agents and lawyers. It's a long list. Today I am seeing for the first time a workshop performance of Three Summers of Lincoln. There are well over 100 people in the audience, some family and friends, but also potential investors, producers, theater owners, etc. This workshop is being officially presented not by Alan Shore and Richard Winkler, the commercial producers who've been developing the show, but by the La Jolla Playhouse in San Diego. That is where Three Summers of Lincoln will eventually have its world premiere as it works its way toward Broadway. La Jol is considered one of the best regional theaters in the country, and over the years it has been a launchpad for many Broadway shows. Rocco Landisseman's Big river back in 1984. The outsiders, which won the Tony last year for best musical, also come From Away, a big hit that told the story of airline passengers stranded in Newfoundland after 9 11. La Jolla is a nonprofit theater that is very much part of the for profit ecosystem. And their partnership on Three Summers of Lincoln is what's called an enhancement deal. Here is the Lincoln writer, Joe DePietro.

[Alan Shore]

Generally, producers give them hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars to enhance their production on stage. So their audience sees a really glitzy, impressive presentation. And also it helps the theater to say, hey, we are producing musicals that are going to Broadway. You saw them here first.

[Stephen Dubner]

And here is the Lincoln producer, Alan Shore.

[Richard Winkler]

The fact that they're a nonprofit has nothing to do with the quality of the product that they're gonna be producing on our behalf in La Jolla. Artistically, they have no say so in the show. They are hatchery for something that we believe will move on very quickly to the commercial stage.

[Stephen Dubner]

In the case of this show, the symbiosis runs even deeper because Lincoln is being directed by Christopher Ashley, who is the artistic director at La Jo. Ashley won a Tony for his work on Come From Away. He also directed the musical, but we don't need to say any more about that. Ashley's attachment to this new show, Three Summers of Lincoln runs deep.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

One of the things that drew me to it is the relationship between Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. These two incredibly well educated, passionate writers, thinkers who started out really as enemies, and those two men sort of magnetically drawing each other toward each other's point of view. I sometimes think about subtitling Three Summers of Lincoln as the radicalization of Lincoln. Watching how a person moves from a very lawyerly careful and incrementalist way of thinking towards somebody who is capable of bold, radical action. That war was not going to get solved without a couple of radical moves being made. There were so many people who were so deeply economically invested in the institution of slavery and how you say, I understand that and I don't care that there is a moral imperative here that transcends the economic motive. And that seems to me like it's got a lot of resonance and applications in the current world.

[Stephen Dubner]

And now in this big rehearsal studio, the cast of Three Summers of Lincoln is spread out in a semicircle. They have their scripts in front of them on music stands. There will be some standing and some sitting, but no real moving about and certainly no choreography. There are also no costumes, no props, no scenery. This is just a chance to hear and feel the story and the song with real performers. The show opens on a tap dancer who has a prosthetic leg. His missing leg represents the war wounded. His tapping mimics a telegraph. For the purposes of this workshop, there is a narrator to fill in some details.

[Alan Shore]

We see text projected on the walls. June 1862. The war has been raging for 430 days. Estimated casualties 53,864. Lights rise on white Union soldiers and black field assists Silhouetted within fog rising from the battlefield.

[Stephen Dubner]

On the edge on the verge the center can hold when.

[Rocco Landesman]

Two ideas can merge.

[Stephen Dubner]

Whoa. And seated at the center of all this is Abraham Lincoln, played by Brian Stokes Mitchell. Lincoln has just arrived at the soldier's home where his wife Mary has promised he will find some peace and a pleasant breeze. For everybody who wondered at the beginning of this project, how would Abraham Lincoln sing? Well, this is how he the burden.

[Brian Stokes Mitchell]

I hold the coming deaths untold how to keep this union intact? Once a country loses its mind, can it ever get it back? Where's the idea?

[Stephen Dubner]

Where's the breeze?

[Brian Stokes Mitchell]

Where is the inspiration to ease these troubles, these tensions, these unmentioned terrors? How to mend these dissensions? Tween men and their efforts? Where's the breeze? Where's the breeze?

[Daniel Watts]

Brian Stokes Mitchell is an incredible star.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's the producer, Richard Winkler.

[Daniel Watts]

He is exactly the right person to play the role, which is why he is playing the role. He is tall, he is slender. He has not been on Broadway in eight years. This will be his return. He's a brilliant performer, and he can stand on a Broadway Stage and Command 1500 people without any difficulty.

[Stephen Dubner]

And here's the director, Christopher Ashley.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

He's so Lincoln y and he's also the most amazing collaborator. He's like game for anything. He will try anything. The most beautiful voice in America. Just like an extraordinary voice. Every time I have a conversation with him about a scene or Lincoln or the current world, I feel like I understand our story better. There is no one in the history of performance who I would rather have playing Lincoln for us than Brian Stokes Mitchell.

[Stephen Dubner]

Stokes, as everyone calls him, is one of the most beloved Broadway performers of his era. In addition to being, as we've already heard, tall and slender with the most beautiful voice in America, he's also a box office draw. Not the same as a George Clooney or Denzel Washington or a Hugh Jackman, but for the core Broadway audience, Brian Stokes Mitchell is a name brand in the 1990s, he appeared in Ragtime as Coalhouse Walker Jr. A Harlem musician navigating lost love, racial injustice and violence. In 2000, he won a Tony for his performance in Kiss Me Kiss Kate. Stokes is black, but he doesn't always play black characters. On stage, he exudes both charm and gravity. He doesn't seem to need attention the way some performers do, and this makes him even more charismatic. Offstage, he's known as kind and caring. He was a founding member of Black Theater United and chair of the Entertainment Community Fund. A leading man in every way. The Three Summers of Lincoln team was thrilled to have Stokes developing the role of Abraham Lincoln from the ground up. Here's Joe DiPietro again.

[Alan Shore]

When you do a reading or a workshop, you're essentially saying to the actor, hey, we're gonna pay you for this time. And the pay, I don't quite know, but it's not a lot. It's probably a few hundred dollars. Not only are we auditioning the folks in it, but Brian Stokes Mitchell is he. How it fits with him, if he enjoys it, if he thinks he really wants to play this role.

[Stephen Dubner]

In the workshop, I saw all the roles were played by black or white actors with what looked to be pretty much historical accuracy. Right. McClellan was played by a white guy. Douglas and his family played by black actors and so on. But then there's Brian Stokes Mitchell as Lincoln. Just talk about that casting choice.

[Alan Shore]

I'll tell you how that came about. We had done a reading of the first act of the show very early on, and it was going very well. And we sort of cast. Lincoln was a very talented white actor. We had talked about Stokes playing Frederick Douglass. Cause he's probably the preeminent male musical performer of that age. And he's, you know, just brilliant. So we're writing the show, and Crystal goes says, you know, the way I'm writing these characters, the Lincoln character has a much more traditional theatrical voice. And Douglas is much more soulful. And, you know, Stokes is super talented, but that's not where he lives as a performer. And we're like, he can do anything. Calm down. He's gonna be great. And then Daniel and Crystal come to me, and they were really a little gingerly, like, we have an idea. We don't know if you're gonna like it. I'm like, I have an idea too. I said, you write down your idea, and I'm gonna write down my idea. We do that, and we both, on a little piece of paper, wrote Stokes as Lincoln.

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh, my Gosh.

[Alan Shore]

So Daniel and Chris, who both were friends with him and had worked with him, said, hey, we have an idea for a show we want to pitch to you. So they take him out to dinner, and he goes, all right, what's the show? And he goes, well, it's called Three Summers of Lincoln, and it's about Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. Daniel said, do you still. Stokes eyes get a little glassy, like, oh, Frederick Douglass, okay. Then they said, well, we want you to play Lincoln. And he suddenly was like, oh, now I'm interested. And a black man playing him is certainly provocative, especially if every other role in the show is cast according to the race that historically they would be.

[Stephen Dubner]

Here again is the director, Christopher Ashley.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

The Frederick Douglass and Lincoln relationship live so much at the center of this musical. We're in three summers of the presidency of Lincoln, 18, 62, 63, and 64. They didn't actually meet until 63 in person. So we have the interesting problem dramatically, of how do you have two central characters who don't meet until after your intermission? So you have to kind of get them into contention and interaction from afar before they finally collide.

[Stephen Dubner]

And here's how that happens. Douglas is played by Quentyn Earl Darrington, a phenomenally intense and talented performer who appears in the first act, essentially in split screen with Lincoln.

[Rocco Landesman]

My name is Frederick Douglass, and let it be known, here I am. Did the man actually say the Constitution gives him no authority to end the inhumanity of slavery? This is what happens when you elect a lawyer president. If the Constitution protects a gross injustice, you don't equivocate, you don't hesitate. You change the goddamn Constitution.

[Stephen Dubner]

Quentin Darrington, who goes by Q, has been performing on Broadway for more than 15 years. His credits include Cats and MJ the Musical. He is a deeply religious man who sees his talent as something to be share. Here he is offstage, out of character.

[Rocco Landesman]

It's a gift. It's a precious gift from God, and I use it for him and for people.

[Stephen Dubner]

When did you discover the gift?

[Rocco Landesman]

Right around eighth, ninth grade. So I grew up in the church. I was in the choir, but I was in the back. I could not sing. They would never give me a solo, ever.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's hard for me to imagine.

[Rocco Landesman]

Insane. Listen, this is the truth. I wanted so desperately to sing, so I just started mimicry. Mimicking. I taught myself through copying some of my favorite artists of the time. John P. Key, who was a gospel singer, amazing legend Jodeci, which was my favorite group back then, R B group. And Stevie Wonder. I listened to every track they've ever made on repeat. And I taught myself to sing through just copying those wonderful, wonderful artists. And I started singing publicly after that.

[Stephen Dubner]

Before that, though. I mean, you were singing in the choir when. What were you missing?

[Rocco Landesman]

I was making noise. I was making a lot of noise. That's all.

[Stephen Dubner]

And here's a scene from the workshop. Frederick Douglass is at the White House about to meet the President for the first time. Lincoln's valet, William slade, introduces Douglass. Mr. President.

[Brian Stokes Mitchell]

This is no need for an introduction, William. I've devoured Mr. Douglass. Right, you have. Let's see. The President sports. Hold on, let me get this right. Ah, yes, the President sports pride of race and blood and contempt for Negroes. Is that what you said?

[Rocco Landesman]

Yes.

[Brian Stokes Mitchell]

Well, judging by your verbiage, I assume you're an avid reader, so we have much to discuss. Sit, please.

[Rocco Landesman]

He threw me off my game. He didn't seem to judge. He knew me by my fame and seemed to bear no grudge.

[Stephen Dubner]

The two men talk about their favorite authors. For Douglass, it's Charles Dickens. Because Douglass explains he writes of society's injustices. Lincoln's favorite author is Shakespeare, he says, for he writes of the burdens of kings.

[Rocco Landesman]

Well, I encourage you to read the novels of Dickens, Mr. President.

[Brian Stokes Mitchell]

And I encourage you to read the plays of Shakespeare, Mr. Douglass. I have all of them.

[Rocco Landesman]

At least twice.

[Brian Stokes Mitchell]

Twice he threw me off my game. He's not as I'd expect. I didn't know his aim. So defer the laid it flex. May I offer you a drink, Mr. Douglas?

[Stephen Dubner]

The relationship between Douglas and Lincoln and the interplay between Quentin Darrington and Brian Stokes Mitchell is riveting. And even though this was just a workshop, the story and songs and performances are undeniably moving. I was sitting next to Debbie Buchholz, who runs the La Jolla Playhouse. As soon as the performance was over, a friend rushed up to her and said, you better start practicing your Tony speech. Later, I spoke with the commercial producers.

[Richard Winkler]

Alan Shore, I think, without exception, everybody went away thinking, this is really something special.

[Stephen Dubner]

And Richard Winkler.

[Daniel Watts]

I have gone to hundreds of these. Not of mine, but colleagues. At the end of it, if people leave right away and say, thank you very much, congratulations, it's really nice. Let's be in touch, that tells you one thing about what they saw. If they stay around for an hour and talk to each other and talk to the cast to the point that the producer has to say, ladies and gentlemen, I'm really sorry our rental of this room ends in three minutes. Could you please leave? Well, that's what happened on Friday. You were there.

[Stephen Dubner]

I was there.

[Daniel Watts]

I was the one who had to say, folks, our rental is over in three minutes. People don't hang around at the end if it's not great. They just don't.

[Stephen Dubner]

It was exciting to see and hear so much excitement. To see the coming together of a story that was just a flicker in someone's imagination. To see it live and breathe and make people laugh and gasp and grieve. The gestation period for a new musical is so long and difficult, difficult and expensive that every time it moves forward it feels like a major accomplishment. But there is a lot more to be done. Next will come some rewrites and then more workshopping with the actors and then a whole other layer of creative work that will feed into the production at La Jolla. Lighting design and scenic design, costumes and choreography. The La Jolla Playhouse has a strong subscriber base and this new Lincoln show has begun to catch their attention. Attention. Subscribers are particularly jazzed about Brian Stokes Mitchell in the lead role. To have a performer of that caliber star in a new Broadway bound musical at a regional theater is a real attraction. But then, one day before tickets go on sale for the world premiere of Three Summers of Lincoln, I hear from one of the show's producers. Brian Stokes Mitchell has quit. Quit the project. Personal reasons. That's all anyone is saying. Everyone is shaken. Rumors fly. We'll hear more about that later in the series coming up next time. Part two is the theater business. Actually a business. We're not a real business.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

We go up and we go down. We have hits, but in between those.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hits, we have four flops in a row. That's next time on the show. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app. [e-mail] where we publish transcripts and show notes. This series is being produced by Alina Coleman and we had research assistants from Julie Kanfer. This episode was mixed by Jasmine Clean with help from Jeremy Johnston. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abawagi, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, John Schnarz, Morgan Levy, Neal Carruth, Sarah Lilly, Teo Jacobs and Zach Lipinski. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers and our composer is Luis Guerra. As always, thanks for listening. Nice work if you can get it.

[Daniel Watts]

Yeah yes, and that should have been a hit too. I was a co producer on that.

[Stephen Dubner]

The Freakonomics Radio Network. The Hidden side of Everything.

[Joe DiPietro]

Stitcher this.

[Stephen Dubner]

Is a message from sponsor Intuit TurboTax Taxes was getting frustrated by your forms. Now Taxes is uploading your forms with a Snap and a TurboTax expert will do your taxes for you. One who's backed by the latest tech which cross checks millions of data points for absolute accuracy. All of which makes it easy for you to get the most money back guaranteed. Get an Expert now on TurboTax.com, only available with TurboTax Live full service. See guarantee [e-mail] guarantees.

[Rocco Landesman]

Hi, I'm Roman Mars, host of the podcast 99% Invisible Design is Everywhere in our lives, but.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

It'S easy to not notice or take it for granted.

[Rocco Landesman]

99% Invisible is a weekly exploration of the process and power of design and architecture. It's stories of who we are through.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

The lens of the things we build.

[Rocco Landesman]

Like have you ever wondered why we use the 1kHz bleep sound to cover.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

Up inappropriate words on radio and TV?

[Rocco Landesman]

Or what aspects of infrastructure allow 5.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

Year olds in Japan to run errands.

[Rocco Landesman]

By themselves while kids in the US.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

Are completely dependent on their parents or their parents cars? Or why the historic flag of South Vietnam shows up at right wing protests all the time? Or why people are obsessed with houseplants? And when did we start bringing plants from halfway around the world into our.

[Rocco Landesman]

Homes to begin with? 99% invisible we'll explore all of that and more every Tuesday. Follow and listen to 99% invisible wherever you get your podcasts. If you've been having your McDonald's sausage.

[Brian Stokes Mitchell]

McMuffin with an iced coffee from somewhere.

[Stephen Dubner]

Else, now is a great time to reconstruct.

[Crystal Monet Hall]

Consider in the Pacific Northwest. It's never too cold for an iced.

[Stephen Dubner]

Coffee in the morning. Grab yourself a medium caramel, French vanilla or classic iced coffee for just $2.29. Warning beverage may cause craving for McMuffin or hash browns. Prices and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer or combo meal.