Freakonomics Radio
Episode 629: How Is Live Theater Still Alive?
Host: Stephen J. Dubner
Release Date: April 11, 2025

Introduction: The Enduring Allure of Live Theater

Timestamp: [01:03]

Stephen Dubner opens the episode by exploring the persistence of live theater amidst the rise of digital and virtual entertainment. He introduces Rocco Landesman, a prominent Broadway producer and former chair of the National Endowment for the Arts, who offers a candid look into the economics and passion that sustain live theater.

The Economics of Broadway: High Stakes and Low Returns

Timestamp: [06:18]

Rocco Landesman delves into the financial challenges of Broadway productions, likening them to horse racing:

"It's a terrible investment, the Broadway theater. It's about, like, horse racing... 15 to 20% of the shows that are put on Broadway earn their money back."
[06:18]

Landesman highlights that with such a low return on investment (ROI), the allure of Broadway remains strong because investors "fall in love with the shows," driven by passion rather than profit.

Creating from Imagination: The Birth of a Musical

Timestamp: [11:17]

The discussion shifts to the genesis of a new Broadway musical, "Three Summers of Lincoln," co-written by Joe DiPietro, Daniel Watts, and Crystal Monet Hall. Dubner recounts how, in the early stages, Landesman collaborated with DiPietro to transform an imaginative idea into a tangible production.

Quentyn Darrington, initially skeptical about the musical's potential, shares his early struggles:

"I'd like you to write a Broadway musical... I had no producing credential of any kind. My credibility was zilch."
[03:55]

Development Challenges: From Concept to Workshop

Timestamp: [16:10]

The trio explains the conceptualization of "Three Summers of Lincoln," focusing on Abraham Lincoln's presidency during the Civil War and his relationship with abolitionist Frederick Douglass. Richard Winkler, co-producer, emphasizes the importance of factual accuracy and historical depth:

"What did Lincoln actually do? Let's get to the facts."
[16:10]

Despite initial reservations about combining historical figures with musical theater, the team persevered, driven by a desire to explore Lincoln's transformative leadership.

Collaboration and Creativity: Crafting the Musical

Timestamp: [25:22]

Daniel Watts and Crystal Monet Hall bring their diverse talents to the project. Watts, a seasoned Broadway performer and spoken word artist, complements Hall's strengths as a singer-songwriter. Their collaboration resulted in the creation of original songs that blend narrative storytelling with musical expression.

Alan Shore, co-writer, reflects on their creative synergy:

"He's much more of a poet than I am, and he is much more of a linguist than I am... It really opened my eyes."
[27:23]

Workshop Performance: Bringing the Musical to Life

Timestamp: [46:20]

The episode details a pivotal workshop performance of "Three Summers of Lincoln" at the La Jolla Playhouse, a renowned regional theater known for nurturing Broadway-bound productions. The workshop featured over 100 attendees, including potential investors and theater stakeholders, who responded enthusiastically to the evolving musical.

Crystal Monet Hall praises the dynamic relationship between Lincoln and Douglass portrayed in the show:

"Watching how a person moves from a very lawyerly careful and incrementalist way of thinking towards somebody who is capable of bold, radical action."
[47:26]

Casting Brilliance: Brian Stokes Mitchell as Abraham Lincoln

Timestamp: [51:24]

A standout moment in the development process was casting Brian Stokes Mitchell, a beloved Broadway performer, as Abraham Lincoln. Despite initial doubts, the creative team believed Mitchell's gravitas and charisma were perfect for the role.

Alan Shore recounts the unconventional casting decision:

"They both wrote Stokes as Lincoln... So Daniel and Chris took him out to dinner, and he goes, 'Well, now I'm interested.'"
[55:25]

This choice sparked discussions about historical accuracy and artistic interpretation, adding a layer of depth to the portrayal of Lincoln.

Implementation Hurdles: Financial and Logistical Struggles

Timestamp: [37:33]

Producing a Broadway musical is fraught with financial demands. Richard Winkler explains that initial funding for "Three Summers of Lincoln" was "mid to high six figures," covering workshops, hiring writers, and other developmental expenses. As the project progressed, securing additional investment became necessary to transition from workshop to full production.

Alan Shore highlights the disparity between theater and film financing:

"For theater, they're much more like 10, 20 if you're starting out... I'm at the point where I can ask for above 50, so..."
[39:16]

Unexpected Setbacks: The Departure of a Lead Actor

Timestamp: [63:50]

Just as momentum built towards a Broadway-bound premiere, the production faced a significant setback when Brian Stokes Mitchell unexpectedly quit the project for personal reasons. This development sent ripples through the team, raising concerns about the show's viability and casting integrity.

Daniel Watts reflects on the impact of Mitchell's departure:

"And that should have been a hit too. I was a co-producer on that."
[64:55]

The episode teases further exploration of this incident and its consequences in the upcoming parts of the series.

Conclusion: The Resilience of Live Theater

Timestamp: [63:55]

Stephen Dubner wraps up the episode by underscoring the resilience required to sustain live theater. Despite financial risks, creative challenges, and unforeseen obstacles, the passion of producers, creators, and performers keeps the magic of live theater alive.

Crystal Monet Hall encapsulates the emotional journey:

"We go up and we go down. We have hits, but in between those."
[63:50]

Dubner leaves listeners anticipating the next installment, which promises to delve deeper into the business side of theater and the hurdles facing productions like "Three Summers of Lincoln."

Key Takeaways

• Passion Over Profit: Live theater thrives on the deep-seated passion of its creators and audiences, often at the expense of financial profitability.

• Creative Collaboration: Successful productions require diverse talents and collaborative synergy, as evidenced by the partnership between DiPietro, Watts, and Hall.

• Economic Realities: The high costs and low ROI of Broadway productions present significant challenges, necessitating persistent investment and innovation.

• Casting Dynamics: Strategic and sometimes unconventional casting choices can redefine character portrayals and add depth to storytelling.

• Resilience Amidst Setbacks: Unexpected challenges, such as key personnel departures, highlight the fragile yet enduring nature of live theater productions.

Notable Quotes with Attribution

• Rocco Landesman:

  "It's a terrible investment, the Broadway theater... 15 to 20% of the racehorses that race at the tracks earn their oats."
  [06:18]

• Joe DiPietro:

  "I am just thinking, like, I'm gonna do it no matter what it is."
  [17:37]

• Crystal Monet Hall:

  "Watching how a person moves from a very lawyerly careful and incrementalist way of thinking towards somebody who is capable of bold, radical action."
  [47:26]

• Daniel Watts:

  "Oh my God, I made it this weekend."
  [41:27]

Episode Production Credits:
Produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. The series is produced by Alina Coleman with research assistance from Julie Kanfer. Mixing by Jasmine Clean and Jeremy Johnston. Special thanks to the Freakonomics Radio Network staff, including Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abawagi, Eleanor Osborne, and others.

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