631. Will "3 Summers of Lincoln" Make It to Broadway?

Summary

Freakonomics Radio Episode 631: Will "3 Summers of Lincoln" Make It to Broadway?

In Episode 631 of Freakonomics Radio, host Stephen Dubner delves into the intricate journey of bringing the new musical Three Summers of Lincoln to Broadway. This detailed exploration uncovers the creative processes, financial challenges, and personal stories behind the production, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of what it takes to stage a Broadway-bound musical.

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1. Introduction to "Three Summers of Lincoln"

Three Summers of Lincoln is a forthcoming musical that reimagines the relationship between President Abraham Lincoln and the abolitionist Frederick Douglass during the Civil War. Conceived by producers Alan Shore and Richard Winkler, the musical features a script by renowned playwright Joe DiPietro, with Daniel Watts as the co-lyricist and Crystal Monet Hall composing the score.

Dubner introduces the episode by highlighting the musical's journey from its initial workshop performances in New York to its anticipated world premiere at the La Jolla Playhouse in San Diego. The production aims to capture the epic narrative of the Civil War while providing a fresh perspective on Lincoln's personal and political struggles.

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2. Development and the Creative Team

The creation of Three Summers of Lincoln has been a collaborative effort spanning three years. Key contributors include:

• Joe DiPietro ([02:00]): Tasked with sharpening the narrative's beginning to ensure a coherent and compelling spine for the musical.

  "The challenge in a musical like this is you're telling an epic story. How can we have this spine as clear as quickly as possible?" – Joe DiPietro ([02:00])

• Daniel Watts ([02:22]): Co-lyricist who worked closely with DiPietro and composer Crystal Monet Hall to refine the musical numbers, such as "12 Rooms in Springfield," which delves into the Lincolns' contemplation of returning to Illinois amidst the war's uncertainties.

  "Disputes is great. That's fantastic." – Daniel Watts ([03:45])

• Crystal Monet Hall ([31:16]): As a first-time Broadway composer, Hall brings a sophisticated and soulful touch to the music, pushing the boundaries of traditional melodies.

  "Crystal is such a sophisticated, interesting, soulful. I love singing her stuff." – Carmen Cusack ([31:16])

• Christopher Ashley ([12:04]): The artistic director and director of the show, Ashley, will soon transition to the Roundabout Theater Company in New York. His leadership has been pivotal in steering the production through its developmental phases.

  "There are a bunch of hats on my desk. You're totally right." – Christopher Ashley ([13:37])

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3. Challenges in Production

a. Recasting Abraham Lincoln

One of the most significant hurdles faced by the production was the unexpected departure of the original actor portraying Abraham Lincoln, Brian Stokes Mitchell, just a day before tickets went on sale for the La Jolla premiere. This sudden change placed immense pressure on the team to find a suitable replacement swiftly.

"Do you think the show might fall apart?" – Carmen Cusack ([17:09])

Mitchell's exit led to speculation about the reasons behind his decision, ranging from personal circumstances to potential disagreements over the portrayal of Lincoln. However, his post-departure performances indicated that he remained a respected figure in the theater community.

The role was ultimately filled by Ivan Hernandez, a seasoned actor known for his work in film, television, and theater. Hernandez brings a unique presence and vocal prowess to Lincoln, ensuring continuity and depth in the character's portrayal.

"He's got Lincolniness, which is a hard thing to define, but you know it when you see it." – Christopher Ashley ([23:07])

b. Financial Funding and Cost Disease

Producing a Broadway-level musical is notoriously expensive, with costs ranging between $17 to $30 million. Three Summers of Lincoln aims to keep expenses on the lower end of this spectrum, striving for financial efficiency without compromising artistic integrity.

The La Jolla Playhouse, a nonprofit institution, utilizes an "enhancement model" to co-fund productions, relying on foundations, individual donors, and commercial producers. This collaborative funding approach helps mitigate the financial burden inherent in live theater.

"Any industry that requires a lot of human labor as opposed to automation is bound to get more expensive over time." – Debbie Buchholz ([08:59])

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4. Insights from the Creative Team

a. Joe DiPietro on Narrative Structure

DiPietro emphasizes the importance of a sharp and cohesive narrative to effectively convey the epic scope of the Civil War era.

"There needs to be a spine to it. How can we have this spine as clear as quickly as possible?" – Joe DiPietro ([02:00])

b. Christopher Ashley on Directing and Recasting

Ashley likens directing a complex musical to managing a battlefield strategy, highlighting the multifaceted responsibilities involved in aligning the creative vision with practical execution.

"It's maybe a little bit like being a general in a war. You're not making the individual decisions on the battlefield, but you're saying what the goals are and what the strategy is." – Christopher Ashley ([14:30])

c. Ivan Hernandez on Portraying Lincoln

Hernandez discusses the depth required to embody Lincoln, focusing on "Lincolniness"—a term Ashley uses to describe the gravitas and authenticity necessary for the role.

"He's really capturing something about Lincoln." – Christopher Ashley ([23:04])

He also touches on the technical aspects of his performance, such as adjusting vocal ranges to suit Hernandez's unique strengths.

"We changed the keys of the show. Ivan's a much higher singer." – Daniel Watts ([30:12])

d. Daniel Watts on Lyricism and Musical Composition

Watts explores the meticulous process of crafting lyrics that convey complex emotions and historical nuances, balancing traditional expressions of grief with innovative musical interpretations.

"It's almost a silent grief. I sing it right in the point of access between my eyes and my forehead." – Daniel Watts ([26:09])

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5. Financial Aspects of Theater Production

a. La Jolla Playhouse's Funding Model

The Playhouse relies on a balanced mix of ticket sales, philanthropy, and government support to sustain its operations. Approximately one-third of its revenue stems from each of these sources, with federal support during the pandemic providing significant relief.

"About a third of our revenue comes in as ticket revenue. A little more than a third comes in through philanthropy." – Debbie Buchholz ([11:06])

b. Cost Disease in Live Theater

Dubner and the guests discuss the economic principle of cost disease, where industries reliant on human labor, like live theater, face increasing costs over time due to rising wages and the lack of automation.

"Any industry that requires a lot of human labor as opposed to automation is bound to get more expensive over time." – Debbie Buchholz ([08:59])

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6. Broader Context on Theater Funding

The episode also touches on the ongoing debate about public funding for the arts. An opinion piece by Isaac Butler argues that American theater is "imploding," suggesting a need for federal bailouts. Economist Michael Rushton counters by highlighting the cyclical nature of theater's popularity and the consistent ebb and flow witnessed over decades.

"If you read cultural commentators in the 1920s, they talk about the death of theater because of the invention of cinema and the radio. It didn't really happen." – Michael Rushton ([38:51])

Quentin Earl Darrington, an arts economist, adds that high culture may not directly lead to economic wealth but enriches society through greater understanding and appreciation of beauty.

"Greater understanding, greater insight, greater appreciation of beauty, those intrinsic goods that make our lives better." – Quentin Earl Darrington ([40:27])

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7. Reception and Future of the Musical

The world premiere at La Jolla Playhouse received overwhelmingly positive reviews, with approximately 95% of the audience expressing satisfaction. Critics praised the performances of Quentin Earl Darrington as Frederick Douglass, Carmen Cusack as Mary Lincoln, and Ivan Hernandez as Abraham Lincoln.

"Tickets sold very well, and Christopher Ashley told me that the playhouse's surveys showed that roughly 95% of the audience was either satisfied or very satisfied with the show." – Stephen Dubner ([45:28])

However, some audience members missed the original Lincoln portrayal by Mitchell, indicating that the recasting was a delicate transition.

The producers are optimistic about moving Three Summers of Lincoln to Broadway in 2026, contingent on raising the necessary funds and securing an appropriate theater. The journey to Broadway remains fraught with challenges, including the need for further rewrites and financial backing.

"I believe that after La Jolla, people will be throwing money at the project." – Ivan Hernandez ([34:06])

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8. Concluding Thoughts

Stephen Dubner encapsulates the episode by reflecting on the collaborative and demanding nature of theater production. He underscores the passion and perseverance of everyone involved in Three Summers of Lincoln, highlighting the show's potential impact both artistically and culturally.

"It's intensely collaborative, the process of making a new show together every day you say something and then someone does something with that thing you've said that is better and richer and more exciting than you had in your head." – Christopher Ashley ([46:51])

As Three Summers of Lincoln continues its journey towards Broadway, the episode leaves listeners contemplating the broader implications of live theater in today's economic and cultural landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• "The challenge in a musical like this is you're telling an epic story. How can we have this spine as clear as quickly as possible?" – Joe DiPietro ([02:00])

• "He's got Lincolniness, which is a hard thing to define, but you know it when you see it." – Christopher Ashley ([23:07])

• "Any industry that requires a lot of human labor as opposed to automation is bound to get more expensive over time." – Debbie Buchholz ([08:59])

• "Greater understanding, greater insight, greater appreciation of beauty, those intrinsic goods that make our lives better." – Quentin Earl Darrington ([40:27])

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This episode of Freakonomics Radio offers a nuanced look into the world of musical theater production, blending economic principles with creative storytelling. For those unfamiliar with the show's inner workings, it provides valuable insights into the passion, challenges, and collaborative spirit that drive Broadway productions.

Transcript

[Stephen Dubner]

It's starting to sound like spring, but it's not official till you've lit up the grill with Kingsford Original Charcoal. This time of year as we break in the backyard with friends and family, everything tastes better cooked with authentic wood fired barbecue flavor.

[Christopher Ashley]

Thanks to Kingsford.

[Stephen Dubner]

Welcome spring.

[Christopher Ashley]

Visit kingsford.com for charcoal and more from America's grilling expert.

[Stephen Dubner]

Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Robert Half need contract help for those workload peaks and backlogged projects? You are not alone. At Robert Half they found that 67% of companies surveyed said they will increase their use of contract talent. That's why their recruiters leverage their experience and use award winning AI to quickly find the skilled candidates you want. Learn about their specialized talent in finance, accounting, technology, marketing, legal and administrative support at Robert Half. They know talent. Visit roberthalf.com talent today in the first episode of the series, we heard about the creation of a new musical called Three Summers of Lincoln. As in Abraham Lincoln, the show is set during the Civil War and centers around Lincoln's relationship with the abolitionist Frederick Douglass. The producers Alan Shore and Richard Winkler commissioned the playwright Joe DePieta to write the script. He brought along Daniel Watts as his co lyricist and then the composer Crystal Monet Hall. After three years of development, the Lincoln team held some workshop performances in New York that persuaded them they were ready to give the show its world premiere at the La Jolla Playhouse in San Diego. Or at least almost ready.

[Joe DiPietro]

I just felt the narrative at the beginning wasn't as sharp as the rest of the show.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's DiPietro.

[Joe DiPietro]

The challenge in a musical like this is you're telling an epic story. I mean, how many different versions of the Civil War could you write? There needs to be a spine to it. How can we have this spine as clear as quickly as possible? We felt, for instance, that the character of Mary Lincoln, she wasn't in the score as much, especially given the actress who is gonna play that role.

[Stephen Dubner]

That actress is Carmen Cusack, who has twice been nominated for a Tony Award on Broadway. And so DiPietro had Daniel Watts and Chris Crystal Monet hall come to his apartment on the Upper west side to work on a new song for Mary Lincoln. A duet with Abraham hall played a demo she'd made on her own, a song called 12 Rooms in Springfield. The song has the Lincolns thinking about going back home to Illinois if Abraham loses re election for the presidency, which, considering how badly the war is going, seems likely.

[Joe DiPietro]

Okay, that was actually good to hear.

[Stephen Dubner]

Again, the three of them are Sitting around Di Pietro's dining room table. They've got laptops open to a Google Doc and to rhymezone.com, the modern lyricist's best friend. They work together with the ease and trust of collaborators who have by now spent hundreds of hours like this.

[Joe DiPietro]

It could be something like, does he envision his life in Springfield? Like in what's there in Springfield? Like old dusty roads in grief I'm.

[Stephen Dubner]

Trying to find a thing. He would. What would he be doing? Who would he be working with in the office?

[Joe DiPietro]

He'd be settling lawsuits with farmers.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right.

[Joe DiPietro]

You know, like, he's a country lawyer.

[Stephen Dubner]

Collection law. Lincoln was a collection lawyer who handled promissory notes which were common in frontier Illinois. They spend a few minutes searching for the right word before Watts comes up with it. So disputes. That's the word I was looking for. Disputes is good. No more country lawyer for farmers. For farmers. Disputes is great. That's fantastic.

[Joe DiPietro]

Do you want to do like, a little sing through of this?

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, man.

[Joe DiPietro]

Ms. Crystal, see if this works.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hall now sings Mary Lincoln's section of the song. We still own the deed 12 rooms in Springfield that's all that we need A side room for sitting where I'll take up knitting A pipe in your parlor where you can place color A bedroom for dozing A statesman reposing a porch Forations and curbside ovations and then Abraham's section Back to Springfield Old Abe's obsolete Abandon my post A coward's retreat to what's there in Springfield but legal pursuits One more country lawyer for farmers Disputes and what's wrong with that life have some hope, have some faith Our homes in Springfield On Jackson and Dave, I asked Joe DiPietro how he was thinking about the show's premiere at La.

[Joe DiPietro]

Jolla, the first preview in La Jolla. I will be as nervous as I am in a Broadway opening because this is the first time the show will meet an audience. Hopefully, we got a lot of it right, but there'll be surprises. There'll be things the audience doesn't understand. There'll be things they don't react to. There'll be jokes that I think are h. That the audience does not. I want people who sort of come in with their arms folded saying, a Lincoln musical. Prove it to me. And to leave saying, wow, that was a thrilling story, thrillingly told. And it's made me think about the state of our country. The anger and the turbulence we feel in this country is nothing new. We've had periods where it's been maybe muted a bit, and we're in a very loud period of turbulence right now, but it's nothing new. And I think like both Lincoln and Douglass, you have to fight for the good. You can't just push your ideas through either. You have to actually make people understand why you're doing what you're doing and why the way you think things should be is the way that they should be.

[Stephen Dubner]

Creating a show like this is both high wire act and marathon. Having tagged along with the Lincoln team for a couple years, I came to see their project as a bit like war itself. Every breakthrough haunted by setback, every confidence tempered by anxiety. For instance, this new song, 12 Rooms in Springfield was put into the show with great excitement, but then wound up being cut. And as we learned earlier in the series, there was much worse news than that. The actor who had been playing Abraham Lincoln quit the show exactly one day before tickets went on sale at the La Jolla Playhouse. This had me wondering what's more surprising? That one person backs out of a project that takes so long to develop or that anyone stays in? Today on Freakonomics Radio, in the third and final episode of our series, Broadway has always been the intended destination for Three Summers of Lincoln. Will it actually get there?

[Christopher Ashley]

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that.

[Quentin Earl Darrington]

Explores the hidden side of everything with your host Stephen Dubner.

[Stephen Dubner]

The La Jolla Playhouse was founded in 1947 by Gregory Peck, Mel Ferrer and Dorothy McGuire, summer stock for Hollywood luminaries, as one producer puts it. There are actually four theaters on the site. It is set on the campus of UC San Diego and it is a favorite out of town destination for ambitious new projects. Over the years it has sent 37 shows to Broadway, but as part of its nonprofit, the playhouse also collaborates with schools and the local military community. And producing a big new musical like Three Summers of Lincoln is expensive.

[Debbie Buchholz]

It's very hard to develop a new musical without something participating beyond just our budget, that is.

[Stephen Dubner]

Debbie Buchholz, La Jolla Playhouse Managing Director.

[Debbie Buchholz]

That can be foundation support, that can be individual support, or it can be a commercial producer.

[Stephen Dubner]

As we heard earlier in this series, live theater suffers from what economists call cost disease. Any industry that requires a lot of human labor as opposed to automation is bound to get more expensive over time since human wages keep rising even while technology gets cheaper. For a non profit theater like La Jolla, that means collaborating with commercial producers in what's called an enhancement model.

[Debbie Buchholz]

La Hoy actually started the enhancement model going back to Big River.

[Stephen Dubner]

Big river was a 1980s musical that we heard about in part one of this series. It launched the career of Broadway producer Rocco Landesman.

[Debbie Buchholz]

The commercial producer put more money into the show beyond what the playhouse was going to spend to enhance the playhouse's production. To say, could we more fully develop the dance numbers? Could we more fully orchestrate it so we would hear what a full orchestra would sound? Could we give it more rehearsal time?

[Stephen Dubner]

Give me a sense of how much money a commercial producer might put toward a production like yours. Dollar figures and or percentage figures, it varies widely.

[Debbie Buchholz]

It kind of depends at the moment that we're gonna do it, what the piece needs. That's in excess of the resources that we have at that moment to put into it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Could it be as much as 30 or 40%?

[Debbie Buchholz]

Yes, it could be.

[Stephen Dubner]

So when a show that originates at La Jolla does move on to Broadway, what's that deal look like from your end? Is it a dollar figure that you'd be guaranteed? Is it a percent of first dollars or after recoup?

[Debbie Buchholz]

How does that work when it moves on? The Playhouse participates in two levels. The reason that people come to the Playhouse is because of that well developed muscle of bringing new work forward. We are a creative participant. So we get a royalty percentage as well.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can you put a number on that?

[Debbie Buchholz]

I'd rather not. It's comfortably within the industry practice what's classically referred to as the regional theater royalty, which can be anywhere from half a percentage point, depending on a lot of different things.

[Stephen Dubner]

Let's talk about the Playhouse budget overall. What are the major contributors? Where does box office come in? Where does philanthropy come in? Government funding.

[Debbie Buchholz]

About a third of our revenue comes in as ticket revenue. A little more than a third comes in through philanthropy. We get some governmental support from the city of San Diego and from the county and from the state. There was actually a fair amount of federal support that came into most regional theaters during the pandemic. That was inordinately helpful. And I would hope that there's a world in which that could start again.

[Stephen Dubner]

Three Summers of Lincoln would have its debut at the La Jolla Playhouse in February of 2025. That meant starting to assemble cast and crew, a big cast and crew in January for rehearsals, costume fittings, choreography, tech rehearsals, and much more. Folks, it's now 1:30, 1:30.

[Ivan Hernandez]

We'll start up on stage.

[Stephen Dubner]

Start up on stage. At the end, we flew out to see for ourselves and we checked in with Christopher Ashley, the show's director.

[Christopher Ashley]

As we're speaking now, we're just starting day one of the second week of two weeks of tech.

[Stephen Dubner]

For the past 18 years, Ashley has also been the artistic director at La Jolla, although next year he'll be moving to New York to take over the Roundabout Theater Company. Ashley has already won a Tony Award for Best director, and it would surprise no one if he to win at least one more someday. He started directing theater in high school, studied English and math at Yale, and afterwards went to work at a bank.

[Christopher Ashley]

I did systems analysis in Foreign Exchange, which I enjoyed for a while until I realized, oh, actually my job is to figure out how to shield people's money from tax liability. And I was like, that doesn't seem like a way to spend a life to me.

[Stephen Dubner]

Ashley took an internship at an Off Broadway theater and he won a National Endowment for the Arts grant for early career directors.

[Christopher Ashley]

I was a freelance director for most of my 20s and 30s. It felt like dating audiences all the time. My interaction with them was two hours long, and then they would move on and I would move on. Part of why being artistic director for me was I didn't really want to date audiences. I wanted to have a relationship. I wanted to, like, talk to them. Across six plays in a season, that's a much richer, fuller conversation about the world than one play for two hours.

[Stephen Dubner]

Just give me your however you want to do it day in the life. General job description? Artistic director feels like you're wearing a different hat every 10 minutes. Can you just tell me what that job is?

[Christopher Ashley]

There are a bunch of hats on my desk. You're totally right. Together with Debbie, we run the theater. Artistic directors are kind of the primary responsibility for programming and figuring out what's on the stage at La Jolla Playhouse. It's also very much intended that I direct there and one or two shows a year. All the education and outreach also falls within artistic director purview. So we're out in the schools with a new play every year, which is an amazing experience to watch. 8 year olds see their first play, just like the flight of imagination that is happening in their heads. And then I also produce, along with our artistic producing director, each of the individual shows.

[Stephen Dubner]

And when Ashley is also directing a show, as he is with Three Summers of Lincoln, there is another leveling up.

[Christopher Ashley]

It's maybe a little bit like being a general in a war. You're not making the individual decisions on the battlefield, but you're saying what the goals are and what the strategy is.

[Stephen Dubner]

On an afternoon in early February, after four weeks of rehearsals for Three Summers of Lincoln, Ashley is now leading a Hundred thirty people through tech rehearsals.

[Christopher Ashley]

We have two weeks in the space to add the technical elements, how the set moves, all the automation and actors moving chairs and tables around the scenery that you've practiced in the studio. You add all the lighting aspects. Lighting designs are tremendously complicated technical feats. With these lights that move and change color, everything is computerized, right? So if you stand on the stage and you look back at the house during a technical rehearsal, you'll see 40 people uplit by their computer screens. There's a lighting desk, there's a sound desk, there's a stage management desk. There's a separate desk where all the scenery and props folks are. It's full of technicians, all of whom are simultaneously watching the show and building the technical structure.

[Stephen Dubner]

As Ashley describes the minutiae of tech rehearsal, I feel like he's giving a perfect illustration of what economists mean by cost disease.

[Christopher Ashley]

You painstakingly, moment by moment, work things out. Let's do these three seconds. All right, now we know what those three seconds are. Let's do the next seven seconds. It's very incremental. It's very layered. It's very stop and go. And then by a week later, hopefully you can run a number. And by the end of the two weeks, the goal is that you can actually run the show.

[Stephen Dubner]

They did get through all that, and they pretty much were ready to run the show with a brand new actor in the title role. For most of the show's development, Lincoln had been played by the Broadway veteran Brian Stokes Mitchell. When I asked Ashley about this late change, he found a positive way to spin it.

[Christopher Ashley]

We were fortunate enough to have Brian Stokes Mitchell in each of the three readings and workshops that led us up to the first production we're about to start. And then he had personal circumstances that didn't allow him to be part of the La Jolla Playhouse production.

[Stephen Dubner]

Stokes, as everyone calls him, was extraordinarily popular with the rest of the cast and the creative team. He was always checking in on folks, almost like a player coach. So he had a lot of goodwill in the bank. Still, his sudden departure made people edgy. I asked Carmen Cusack how she took the news as Mary Lincoln. Cusack had been working across from Stokes since the New York workshops.

[Carmen Cusack]

I had just come back from some heavy stuff, heavy family stuff going on in Texas that I was trying to help sort out. And as soon as I got back from that, because of that stress, I got the flu and was really in bed sick when I got the call from Christopher Ashley. So I Was already down in the dumps. And then he calls and then he says that. And I was just. I was like, yeah, just throw it on the heat, you know? Cause who else could do this role? He's perfect for this role.

[Stephen Dubner]

Did you think the show might fall apart?

[Carmen Cusack]

I was concerned. I was concerned. But I have full trust and admiration for Christopher and just the whole group. I said, well, are we gonna keep going? And he said, yep, we're gonna keep going.

[Stephen Dubner]

We had tried several times to interview Stokes before he dropped out. We finally got him and the studio booked, but he canceled the day before. I didn't know what it meant to leave a show for personal reasons, and it didn't seem right to pry too much. But in the absence of fact, rumors flew. Maybe Stokes dropped out because he just didn't think the show was good enough. Maybe he didn't want to spend a few months living in a hotel room in La Jolla. Maybe in this moment of such fractured politics, he didn't want to draw attention as a black actor playing Abraham Lincoln. Or maybe at 67 years old, he just didn't feel up for a long out of town run. He did perform in public shortly after quitting Lincoln in New York. He starred in a five day run of love Life, an old Kurt Weill Alan J. Lerner musical. And he was a featured performer on a five day Broadway cruise from Miami to Cozumel. I went to see him in Love Life and he looked as good as ever. Whatever the case or whatever the cause for his departure, three summers of Lincoln needed a new Lincoln asap. So they called in their casting director. Here's Christopher Ashley again.

[Christopher Ashley]

She's like, here's 30 people that we think would be fantastic to consider. So we all bat them around, champion various names until we winnow that list down to, I think we ended up with six people. And then you start figuring out, okay, who's actually available to come and join us in a month.

[Stephen Dubner]

And then what do you do? You send the script to all of those six.

[Christopher Ashley]

No, no, no. You very much go one at a time. And most of those six someone in our group has worked with before, and all of us have seen many, many performances by them. It's a very known group. You're not just basing this on an audition. You're also basing it on a body of work. And very, very excited that we're being joined by Ivan Hernandez as Lincoln.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tell me about Ivan.

[Christopher Ashley]

For La Jolla playhouse aficionados, he was the Zhivago in the La Jolla playhouse production of Dr. Zhivag. If you Google him, you'll see him all over film, all over television, and all over theater stages. He's super smart, beautiful voice, has a kind of center of gravity that I think is a necessary part of Lincoln.

[Stephen Dubner]

Looks good in a top hat.

[Christopher Ashley]

I've not tried him in a top hat yet, but I did draw one on a picture of him to sort of see what he looked like in my imagination.

[Stephen Dubner]

And what number was Ivan on that list?

[Christopher Ashley]

I can't tell you that, but he was high.

[Stephen Dubner]

Coming up after the break.

[Alan Shore]

Hi, I'm Ivan Hernandez and I'm playing Abraham Lincoln in Three Summers of Lincoln.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Walmart plus actually designed to help you save more time and money. No statistics needed here. We all have reasons we need to save more time and money. Money. Whether you are a busy parent, dedicated pet parent or student on a shoestring budget, Walmart savings can be a lifesaver for anyone who shops at Walmart and wants to get even more savings. Another big plus is an included Paramount plus subscription so you can watch Blockbuster movies, original series and more. Walmart plus it's Walmart Plus plus free delivery, free shipping, gas discounts, video streaming plus so much more. Start a free 30 day trial at PlusWallmart.com see Walmart plus terms and conditions $35 order minimum Paramount plus essential plan only. Separate registration required.

[Christopher Ashley]

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[Stephen Dubner]

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[Christopher Ashley]

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[Stephen Dubner]

With Brian Stokes Mitchell out as Lincoln, Ivan Hernandez was in. After several weeks of rehearsal, the director, Christopher Ashley, declared himself pleased with the new casting.

[Christopher Ashley]

He's got Lincolniness, which is a hard thing to define, but you know it when you see it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can you describe it at least? What do you mean by Lincolniness?

[Christopher Ashley]

It's a gravitas. It's intelligent use of language in rehearsals. I was like, yeah, he's really capturing something about Lincoln. And then we put the costume on and I thought, wow, he's really Lincoln. And then we did a last thing, which is he'd been rehearsing with a beard and mustache, and we just shaved the mustache, which is unique to Lincoln. Right. You don't see a lot of beards, no mustaches in the world. And there was something about, like, all of the work that he'd been done in creating the character. Suddenly, with that tiny gesture, got all the way across the finish line for me.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hernandez has a strong musical theater background, including on Broadway. But in recent years, he's been doing mostly TV movies and commercials. He played Carrie Bradshaw's love interest on the recent Sex and the City reboot. I sat down with him backstage at the La Jolla Playhouse to see how he is adjusting to Lincoln.

[Alan Shore]

Normally, I don't do regional theater anymore. I mean, I'm married, I have kids, I live in Los Angeles. But. But I just kept thinking, I can't turn down this part. I mean, this is a once in a lifetime kind of a role. It's just an incredible story, part of history. So I felt like if I still want to be an actor, I have to do this. And I love doing musicals. I don't get to do them as often as I used to when I used to live in New York. It's incredibly hard work and it takes all of you, but it's very rewarding too, if it's the right piece.

[Stephen Dubner]

I asked Hernandez what tech rehearsal is like from the actor's perspective.

[Alan Shore]

They're long hours, but it's sort of relaxing too, because you're going through everything slowly. So you're just on stage getting the lights done. It's kind of the quiet before the storm of actually performing the show, which is nerve wracking too. Cause you're like, I still need to run these lines and go through the show.

[Stephen Dubner]

Especially you. You're the late edition. Yeah.

[Alan Shore]

Yes, that's true. It was a lot of words to learn.

[Stephen Dubner]

Are your fellow cast members particularly sympathetic to your.

[Alan Shore]

Yes, all of them. Have played giant roles on Broadway, and they know exactly what it's like and what it takes.

[Stephen Dubner]

The dialogue is one thing. His Lincoln character also has nine songs, including an early establishing song called this Impossible Position.

[Alan Shore]

All I want is a nation reunited All I want is a people set.

[Stephen Dubner]

Free.

[Alan Shore]

Oh, but I had a proud coalition amongst pitiful politicians who compromised with conditions putting me in this impossible position.

[Stephen Dubner]

I also caught up back backstage with Lincoln's foil, Frederick Douglass, played by Quentin Earl Darrington.

[Daniel Watts]

My focus right now is depth and breadth of his complexity in this story, to make sure that every T is crossed, every I is dotted and done so with love, brilliance, and excellence.

[Stephen Dubner]

How much of it is mental?

[Daniel Watts]

I'm very intentional about what comes out of my mouth, especially through songs. So there's a lot of thought and a lot of time with why I will place a certain thing a certain way or what I choose to land on, what operative words or colors that I want to shape. It's like a scalpel precision.

[Stephen Dubner]

Could you give an example? Could you? Yeah.

[Daniel Watts]

There's a moment in the show where I'm grieving, and the grief that is expressed could be very uncontrolled and boisterous and loud and kind of have no form or shape crying out. But we've been playing with it, and we're doing just the opposite. It's almost a silent grief. I sing it right in the point of access between my eyes and my forehead, and I just leave it there and don't push and allow the sound text to do what they do, and it just is received in a new way. You get used to the news you hear on the streets. More injured, more killed.

[Stephen Dubner]

Each day it repeats.

[Daniel Watts]

You pray on your knees to your God up above that it's never your kinfolk, your blood. It's an interesting way of palletizing sound because you'll get a lot of force and power from me. And this is completely opposite, and it's perfect for the moment.

[Stephen Dubner]

So I think when the average ticket buyer, especially someone that doesn't know much about the theater or maybe doesn't see a lot of theater, when they come to buy a Broadway ticket, you know, it's pretty expensive. I think when you pay that much for something, you just want to sit back and say, okay, entertain me. My sense is that many theatergoers may not know or care or bother to think much. Why should they? About what it takes to get this thing on stage in front of them. So for them, it's an entertainment that they've bought. But behind that ticket Are, as we're seeing in the theater there during tech rehearsals, hundreds of people working for months and months.

[Daniel Watts]

Oh, yes.

[Stephen Dubner]

And when I look at it from the economic side, a 2 or $400 ticket, it's a lot of money. But it begins to seem like chump change when I look at what it takes to do this.

[Daniel Watts]

Indeed.

[Stephen Dubner]

So from the performer side, how does it work? Can you describe for me how it has been for you to earn your living as a theater performer?

[Daniel Watts]

Ooh, man, do we have enough time?

[Stephen Dubner]

I've got nothing to do.

[Daniel Watts]

It's interesting how you said that about the ticket price versus what it costs to build the thing. Right. It's a lot, and it seems like just a drop in the bucket. There's so many hours upon hours upon days upon years of our lives that we put into our projects. I asked myself many times, why do I keep doing this? For me, it's a calling. It's greater than me. So I keep going, and I just keep learning how to find peace, find balance, find resolve in the grueling aspect of it, I think that is one of the greatest successes of an artist's journey, is finding that balance. Because you will always have devastating days, and you will always have extremely joyful mountaintop days. But it's how you, in the midst of all of that, continue to keep saying yes to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next, that's difficult.

[Stephen Dubner]

So you got a new Lincoln between when we last saw the show and now, right?

[Daniel Watts]

Yes.

[Stephen Dubner]

What's that transition been like for you?

[Daniel Watts]

The transition was difficult because I was focused on where we were and what we were building. I'll tell you today where I am. We have our dear brother, Ivan Hernandez, and he is brilliant. I cannot wait for audiences to get a chance to see him.

[Stephen Dubner]

How did you have to adjust your work in this show to playing with a different Lincoln from Stokes to Ivan?

[Daniel Watts]

One clear example are keys. We changed the keys of the show. Stokes has a beautiful, rich baritone. Ivan's a much higher singer. So we lifted some keys and arranged some things. A duet. So I'm singing much higher than I was before, which is cool for me. My range is kind of all over the place. And it's fun. It's fun to sing there.

[Alan Shore]

He doesn't give an inch he certainly no fool he didn't even flinch as.

[Stephen Dubner]

Stubborn as a mule but could the.

[Alan Shore]

Man be right on some finer points he made? I did enjoy the fight. Round two. Another day.

[Stephen Dubner]

The songs in Three Summers of Lincoln fit comfortably in the Broadway idiom. But there is a freshness about them. The composer Crystal Monet hall is a first time Broadway composer. Here is Carmen Cusack, who plays Mary Lincoln.

[Carmen Cusack]

Crystal is such a sophisticated, interesting, soulful. I love singing her stuff. Just when you think you know what the melody is, you don't. She says, no, we're not going there. I kind of winked at her a few times when I knew I was hitting the wrong note and she wanted this other thing. And she would kind of look up at me and be like, I know, I know. I did it wrong. I'm sorry.

[Stephen Dubner]

And here's Cusack at tech rehearsal singing a song called in each letter where Mary Lincoln asks her husband to show mercy by pardoning Union soldiers who deserted their posts. Thank you. All right, Marvin, go ahead. You're more than a man. A commander in chief. Save a life while you can.

[Christopher Ashley]

Save a mother from grief.

[Stephen Dubner]

Each day brings bad news. Don't let it harden your heart. Put your power to use and make mercy in art. These tech rehearsals run for hours, sometimes late into the night. The pace is remarkably slow. The performers are in costume with full hair and makeup, but they spend most of their time just standing in place. While technical decisions are made and memorialized and rehearsed. The creative team takes notes, notes, more notes. It's easy to find yourself asking, what exactly does all this add up to? Yes, it's a commercial enterprise, but what's the larger purpose of all this work?

[Ivan Hernandez]

It tells a story that's important today.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is Alan Shore, the producer in Boston who came up with and commissioned the Lincoln idea.

[Ivan Hernandez]

It talks about leadership. It talks about how one man, two men could change the world. One of the lyrics, there's a country out there waiting for us better than this. And there is. We're a great country. But there is a country out there better than where we are today. And we should all strive to make this a better country.

[Stephen Dubner]

Let's talk about the capitalization of this show. What do you expect it to be capitalized at or cost to get it to Broadway?

[Ivan Hernandez]

As little as we possibly can. As a business person from the past and as a fiduciary, I will do everything that I can to keep cost at the lowest possible amount without sacrificing the art of the show. Today, an average musical costs anywhere from 17 to 30 million dollars. I think we'll be at the very low end of that number.

[Stephen Dubner]

Talk about how much you've raised so far and then what the plan is for the next 12 months or so.

[Ivan Hernandez]

We're raising about $4 million to get us through La Jolla.

[Stephen Dubner]

How many investors are involved in that?

[Ivan Hernandez]

There may be about 20 to 25.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can you just talk about the state of investing now? You know what's a typically small investment and typically large investment?

[Ivan Hernandez]

The smallest investment that most shows allow is $25,000 and it goes up from there. We've had people at this stage of our production coming in with $250,000. We're talking about pre Broadway right now. Once a show has established itself as something that's definitely going to Broadway, it really has the potential to be a great show. Then you will see 250, 500, even a million dollars come in. My guess is things will go great in La Jolla because I know the product that we've achieved so far. This really is a special, special musical. I believe that after La Jolla, people will be throwing money at the project.

[Stephen Dubner]

After the break, three summers of Lincoln opens and maybe the future of theater isn't so bleak. I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Range Rover Sport. A vehicle that blends power, poise and performance with a distinctly British design, the Range Rover Sport is built to take on roads anywhere. Free from unnecessary details, its raw power and agility shine. Combining a dynamic sporting personality with elegance and agility, it delivers an instinctive drive. Its assertive stance hints at an equally refined driving performance. Defining true modern luxury, the Range Rover Sport features the latest innovations in comfort and convenience. The cabin air purification system alongside the Active noise cancellation creates a new level of quality, comfort and control. Terrain Response 2 offers seven terrain modes to choose from, fine tuning the vehicle for any challenging roads ahead of force inside and out. The Range Rover Sport is available with a choice of powerful engines, including a plug in hybrid with an estimated range of 53 miles. Build your Range Rover Sport at range rover.com USSport Freakonomics radio is sponsored by Stripe. When launching a new product, finding the right revenue model can be just as important as the product itself. That's why Stripe built Stripe Billing. Stripe Billing is the advanced billing software to grow any business from seat based subscriptions to usage based billing and every pricing model in between. Stripe Billing helps you grow your business your way fast. Learn how Stripe Billing can help your [e-mail] billing freakonomics radio is sponsored by Wells Fargo. This is an ad for the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs in a lot. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it. So whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Let's say it together the Active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply in 2023, the culture critic Isaac Butler wrote an opinion piece in the New York Times with the headline American Theater is Imploding before Our Eyes, and he called for a federal bailout of nonprofit theater. There's certainly plenty of evidence to back up his imploding thesis. Beloved regional theaters shutting down. The donor class, especially younger donors, showing a lack of interest in theater and live theater, faces massive competition from Netflix and other streamers. In response to Butler's piece, the Indiana University arts economist Michael Rushton wrote this you cannot save an art form if people are not interested in attending. But Rushton, when we called him up, noted that Butler's claim is not new.

[Quentin Earl Darrington]

If you read cultural commentators in the 1920s, they talk about the death of theater because of the invention of cinema and the radio. It didn't really happen. It may be that there is going to be a natural downsizing in theater industries. Ebb and flow. And the fact that some theaters are closing and some theaters are finding we can't do as many plays per year as we used to does not that theater is dying.

[Stephen Dubner]

I've seen data from the Broadway League that the average annual household income of a Broadway ticket buyer is do you want to guess the number?

[Quentin Earl Darrington]

I'm going to guess the average household income is going to be over $100,000.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, it's over 250. Okay, $250,000. How do you think about the population of Broadway ticket buyers then? Are they just rich by definition? Is is a Broadway ticket therefore a luxury good? And if so, is that a good thing or bad thing?

[Quentin Earl Darrington]

I'm not sure I would call live performance a luxury good because it's not necessarily that expensive relative to other things that people spend money on. So yes, a night out at live theatre is going to cost one a lot, but people do spend lots of money to go on trips or go to amusement parks or go to live sporting events. So. So I think that live theater needs to be thinking about how do we turn this into something people really want to do? Our biggest selling point is that there are live breathing individuals on a stage right in front of you.

[Stephen Dubner]

You recently published a book called the Moral Foundations of Public Funding for the Arts. What can you tell us about cause and effect with cultural institutions. Is it that successful economies and cultures have the wealth to support these institutions and that's why they exist, or do those cultural institutions contribute to the success of an economy and culture?

[Quentin Earl Darrington]

I'm not sure whether we can say that high culture necessarily leads to economic riches, but it can lead to riches in other ways. In terms of greater understanding, greater insight, greater appreciation of beauty, those intrinsic goods that make our lives better.

[Stephen Dubner]

Do you feel that the arts in the US have contributed to a greater culture of understanding and insight and appreciation of beauty?

[Quentin Earl Darrington]

One would hope so. And one would think that our greatest playwrights have given us insights into social dynamics and the family. If you think of Arthur Miller and Tennessee Williams and all of our great authors and poets and composers, they have helped us understand ourselves somewhat. And I think that has made our lives richer.

[Stephen Dubner]

I happen to be on your team, Michael. I feel very much the same way personally that you're describing. That said, when I look at the relatively tiny number of people who attend theater, who attend opera, who attend classical music, even who go to museums, I think, well, there is a small portion of any population that likes that stuff, and the vast majority in our country at this moment in time simply don't. So what's your best argument? That it does deserve public funding, even though the share of the population who partakes is relatively tiny, and that share of the population tends to be able to afford it themselves already.

[Quentin Earl Darrington]

The justification for public funding for the arts, even though the audiences tend to skew towards the well off, is that you want to preserve the very best of our culture for future generations. You want to preserve it for current generations who may not have discovered it, but who might find real meaning in it. So just keeping that opportunity alive and not letting those opportunities die out so that all we have is whatever commercial culture finds it can make a dollar out of, is important.

[Stephen Dubner]

What's the last thing you saw a live performance that moved you?

[Quentin Earl Darrington]

Last live performance I went to was a very, very low budget outdoor performance of Henry iv, Part one. And it was wonderful.

[Stephen Dubner]

Where was this and who were the performers?

[Quentin Earl Darrington]

This was in Bloomington and it was just a local amateur theater company. The audience was very diverse and sitting in lawn chairs or just on the grass. The costumes were really makeshift, but the actors and the audience alike were just so involved in the performance and all the action and the sword fights. There were no star performers at all. It's not Shakespeare's best known play, and yet it was just a terrific night out. And something that I will not forget.

[Christopher Ashley]

Musical theater is a Magic trick.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's Jeffrey Seller, a lead producer on Hamilton, Rent and others.

[Christopher Ashley]

When an artist lines up in the perfect way, music, dialogue, lyric, movement, character and story in a way that makes me go from the back of my seat to the front of my seat, that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up and makes me cry and fills me with joy and affects me in my. To use a Yiddish word, kishkas. My guts. We can get you in your guts. We're gonna entertain you and inspire you and do it with illumination and education. But most important, we're going to lift you out of your chair and take you to a place you've never been.

[Stephen Dubner]

Will Three Summers of Lincoln be able to do that? To lift people out of their chairs and take them to a place they've never been? We're about to find out.

[Christopher Ashley]

Hi, I'm Christopher Ashley, the artistic director here at LA Playhouse, also the director of the show. Thank you for your patience tonight.

[Stephen Dubner]

We're about to get started.

[Christopher Ashley]

So tonight is our very first public performance of this world for Dare Music. My Thumb Pieces. You are the first audience for this musical ever, and we are delighted to meet you.

[Stephen Dubner]

Audiences at the La Jolla Playhouse loved Three Summers of Lincoln. Tickets sold very well, and Christopher Ashley told me that the playhouse's surveys showed that roughly 95% of the audience was either satisfied or very satisfied with with the show. The San Diego Union Tribune called it a thrilling and handsome production and noted that the show seems to kick into a higher gear whenever Quentin Darrington is singing as Frederick Douglass. Carmen Cusack as Mary Lincoln and Ivan Hernandez. The Last Minute Abraham were also well received and well reviewed. Although, to be honest, I did find myself missing Brian Stokes Mitchell as Lincoln. And I did hear some audience members grumbling that they had come to see the show, expecting Stokes in lead role. But who knows? Maybe he'll be back in the show if and when it makes it to Broadway. The producer, Alan Shore, told me they hope to bring the show to New York in 2026, provided they can raise the rest of the roughly $20 million it costs to mount a show this size, and provided there is a suitable theater available, neither of which are guaranteed. Between now and then, there will be more rewrites, more streamlining, more reconsideration of everything. Here's Christopher Ashley again.

[Christopher Ashley]

I do think there's something about the process that is insane and also the most satisfying thing you can possibly do with your life. It's intensely collaborative, the process of making a new show together every day you say something and then someone does something with that thing you've said that is better and richer and more exciting than you had in your head. And that keeps on taking the process further, higher and deeper into the center of the story. Once you've had that experience, it's a little bit like crack and you don't want to give it up.

[Stephen Dubner]

For now, everyone in Lincoln is back to juggling their other projects. Quentin Darrington is producing a show called I Dream about Martin Luther King Jr. And Ralph Abernathy. Joe DiPietro wrote a play that recently opened in Kansas City called An Old Fashioned Family Murder. He told us that murder mysteries and comedies are what regional theaters are looking for these days. And how about Daniel Watts, the super energetic co lyricist and co choreographer on Three Summers of Lincoln? There's a piece about Pele that I have been writing that started what I thought was just a piece about him and his story, which is fascinating. Is that for you to perform in as well?

[Christopher Ashley]

Yes.

[Stephen Dubner]

I ended up going to Brazil during the last World cup and ultimately ended up being at Pele's bedside watching the World cup final with him 11 days before he passed away. You're kidding. I'm not kidding. How did that happen? See, now that's a whole other podcast. Is it a whole other podcast? I've heard worse ideas. This series was a blast to make and I'd like to thank everyone for letting us watch them work. The entire Three Summers of Lincoln crew, the La Jolla Playhouse crew, and all the producers and academics and others we spoke with, including a lot of people who, who were very helpful but whose voices you didn't hear, including Jane Abramson, Sue Frost, Frank Rich, Michael Riedel, and Scott Zeiger. Big thanks to everyone. Coming up next time on the show, you take a film like the Martha Stewart film. I'm told between 30 and 40 million people saw that movie. Documentary film used to be thought of as the unsmiling cousin of its flashy Hollywood counterpart. Thanks to streamers like Netflix, that has changed. And the director, RJ Cutler is one of the biggest beneficiaries. We talked to him about celebrity culture, life lessons from baseball, and what he won't do for his art. I'm not going to make a propaganda film about anybody. That's next time. Also, we need your voice if you are willing to lend it. We are working on an episode about how seemingly obsolete technologies like the candle continue to thrive. So tell us about something that you are not willing to let go of and why use your phone to record a voice memo and send it to radioreconomics.com make sure to get yourself in a quiet place and include your name and where you live. Again, send that voice recording to radio freakonomics.com subject line obsolete. We will be back next week. Until then, take care of yourself and if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app [e-mail] where we publish transcripts and show notes. This series was produced by Alina Coleman and mixed by Jasmine Klinger with help from Jeremy James Johnston. Thanks also to Jason Gambrell for field recording in New York and Alec Moore for field recording in La Jolla. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abuaji, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, John Schnarz, Morgan Levy, Neal Carruth, Sarah Lilly, Teo Jacobs and Zach Lipinski. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers and our composer is Luis Guerra. As always, thanks for listening. My big takeaway is that podcasts make the world go round. Yes, I promise you that is literally my belief system. The Freakonomics Radio Network the Hidden side of Everything Stitcher.

[Debbie Buchholz]

Some people get a wild haircut or book a spontaneous trip when life throws them a curveball. But Molly? Well, she dove headfirst into a world of no strings attached sex, secret rendezvous, forbidden affairs and unforgettable adventures. And together we tell every juicy detail in Dying for Sex, Wondery's award winning podcast that's now streaming on a TV near you, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate. And to top it off, we're dropping brand new bonus episodes where I sit down with the cast to spill all the spicy secrets, desire, friendship, self discovery and the ultimate bucket list of pleasure. This is a story that had everyone talking. Listen to the original Dying for Sex and brand new episodes wherever you get your podcast cast. Binge the original series before anyone else.

[Stephen Dubner]

When you open a Corona, you hear the sounds of wherever you are a little differently, a little more Corona and you think to yourself.

[Alan Shore]

Why am I just listening?

[Stephen Dubner]

Corona La Playa awaits. Relax responsibly. Corona Extra Beer imported by Crown Import Chicago, Illinois Hotels.com knows that planning your book club's annual trip can get chaotic. Self improvement Steve needs a hotel gym and horror. Harriet ghosted the group. Chat about budget, collaborate, vote on your favorites and book all in the app. Find your perfect somewhere with hotels dot com.