632. When Did We All Start Watching Documentaries?

Summary

Freakonomics Radio Episode 632: "When Did We All Start Watching Documentaries?"

Host: Stephen Dubner
Guest: RJ Cutler, Emmy Award-Winning Filmmaker
Release Date: May 2, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 632 of Freakonomics Radio, Stephen Dubner delves into the burgeoning popularity of documentary films with acclaimed filmmaker RJ Cutler. This in-depth conversation explores the evolution of documentaries, Cutler's personal journey in filmmaking, his creative processes, and the shifting landscape of film distribution in the streaming era.

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RJ Cutler's Documentary Journey

Background and Early Influences

RJ Cutler, an Emmy Award-winning filmmaker, boasts an impressive portfolio that includes documentaries like Martha, Never Too Late about Elton John, and the critically acclaimed The War Room. Cutler's passion for storytelling was ignited during his formative years in Great Neck, New York, where he balanced interests in sports, journalism, and theater. At Harvard, he studied dramatic theory, absorbing lessons on engaging audiences deeply and meaningfully.

[05:28] RJ Cutler: "I can't remember the number of times a teacher said to me something like, 'you're gathering people in a theater. You've asked them to come and spend three hours of their lives with you. You better have, and you better damn well know what it is.'"

Transition to Documentary Filmmaking

Despite his early success in theater, Cutler harbored a latent desire to explore documentary filmmaking. This aspiration solidified after witnessing Barbara Kopple's Harlan County, USA during his college years, an experience that profoundly influenced his commitment to the art form.

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The Evolution of Documentary Films

Technological Breakthroughs

Cutler attributes the rise of modern documentaries to technological advancements in the 1960s, which made film equipment more portable and accessible. Pioneers like D.A. Pennebaker and Robert Drew utilized these tools to create immersive, character-driven narratives that rivaled scripted films in depth and engagement.

[06:35] RJ Cutler: "Documentaries are fully cinema, fully narrative, fully character-driven, and as I like to say, just like a real film."

Shift in Distribution and Popularity

Initially confined to art house theaters, documentaries found a broader audience through streaming platforms. Cutler notes Netflix's early support of documentaries like The War Room as pivotal in demonstrating the genre's mass appeal, leading to a significant increase in documentary production and viewership.

[12:03] RJ Cutler: "The art house audience is smaller than the multiplex audience, and it always was and it always will be. Now the art house comes to you through the streaming services."

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Making "Billie Eilish: The World's A Little Blurry"

Concept and Collaboration

Cutler's documentary on pop sensation Billie Eilish, The World's A Little Blurry, provides an intimate look into the life of a young artist on the cusp of superstardom. Embedding with Eilish and her family, Cutler captures the dynamics of creativity, family, and the pressures of rising fame.

[14:36] Stephen Dubner: "This was the 2020 Grammy Awards, when Eilish won Album of the Year, Record of the Year, Song of the Year, Best Pop Vocal Album, and Best New Artist. She was 18 years old."

Rekindling Passion for Documentary Filmmaking

During the production of the Eilish documentary, Cutler experienced a resurgence of enthusiasm for documentary filmmaking, which had waned during a period of lesser projects.

[15:00] RJ Cutler: "I made this film at a time when I was probably a little out of love with documentary filmmaking. A little bit had lost the spark, and this film rekindled that spark in a huge way."

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Filmmaking Process and Editing

Collaborative Editing

Cutler emphasizes the collaborative nature of documentary editing, working closely with his team to sift through extensive footage to identify "golden scenes." This meticulous process ensures the narrative remains compelling and true to the subjects' stories.

[21:10] RJ Cutler: "We spent a month, every day just looking at what we considered to be the golden scenes. And then we met for several days and then we talked about it and added some scenes and removed others."

Enjoyment in Discovery

Despite the daunting task of handling hundreds of hours of footage, Cutler finds the editing process both enjoyable and illuminating, allowing him to discover new facets of the story and characters.

[22:14] RJ Cutler: "Of course, of course it's fantastic. If it's not enjoyable, maybe consider a different line of work, I would say."

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Working with Subjects: Martha Stewart

Initiating the Project

Cutler's documentary Martha is a nuanced portrayal of Martha Stewart's rise, fall, and redemption. The project began serendipitously when Stewart expressed interest in having a film made about her, leading to a deep and trusting collaboration.

[26:57] RJ Cutler: "My wife, Jane, and I... were having dinner with our friend Alina, and that afternoon, Alina called and said, 'Would you mind? Martha Stewart would like to join us at dinner.'"

Balancing Access and Creative Control

A cornerstone of Cutler's approach is maintaining final cut over his films, ensuring that the narrative remains authentic and untainted by external influences. This boundary was clearly communicated and respected from the outset of his work with Stewart.

[44:51] RJ Cutler: "The line between access and approval is a conversation that I try to have with everyone as early in the process as possible. And that is the line of final cut."

Navigating Sensitive Topics

The documentary candidly addresses personal aspects of Stewart's life, including her divorce, using primary sources like personal letters to enhance authenticity. Cutler skillfully balances revealing personal vulnerabilities while maintaining a respectful portrayal.

[33:05] Stephen Dubner: "I found one of the most powerful pieces of that film was around a series of letters that she had written to her then-husband."

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Views on Fame and Documentary Ethics

Perception of Fame

Cutler offers a contemplative view on fame, distinguishing it from the subjects' inherent greatness. He critiques the culture of "famous for being famous," emphasizing his focus on the substantive achievements and personal stories of his subjects rather than their celebrity status.

[40:13] RJ Cutler: "I try to impress upon my kids that fame isn't what it looks like. And that from what I've seen, it's certainly a double-edged sword."

Ethical Filmmaking

Committed to authenticity, Cutler rejects commissioned projects that may compromise the integrity of his work. He values the independence to pursue truth without external pressures, ensuring that his documentaries remain unbiased and genuine.

[44:14] RJ Cutler: "I'm very blessed in that I have wise counsel from my partners."

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Upcoming Projects and Future Plans

"Fight for Glory"

Cutler's latest project, Fight for Glory, is a three-part series chronicling the 2024 World Series. Despite his allegiance to the New York Mets, Cutler immerses himself in the rival Los Angeles Dodgers and New York Yankees to capture the essence of baseball's drama and the human stories within.

[37:00] RJ Cutler: "Baseball is a beautiful game that has so much to teach us about life and about overcoming adversity."

Greenland Documentary

Cutler is also embarking on a documentary about the United States' secretive military base in Greenland, exploring themes of environmental impact and geopolitical strategy amidst climate change.

[51:07] RJ Cutler: "The United States has had designs on Greenland for decades. In fact, for more than 150 years. And that's what this movie that we're making is about."

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Closing Thoughts

Stephen Dubner and RJ Cutler conclude their conversation by reflecting on the art of documentary filmmaking as a medium for uncovering the "hidden side of everything." Cutler's dedication to truthful storytelling and his nuanced understanding of his subjects underscore the enduring relevance and power of documentaries in contemporary culture.

[56:43] RJ Cutler: "If you're watching one news service, you should know the difference between it and another news service. I think if you're watching a documentary, you should know the source of that."

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Notable Quotes

• RJ Cutler on Documentary Evolution:
  "Documentaries are fully cinema, fully narrative, fully character-driven, and as I like to say, just like a real film."
  [06:35]

• RJ Cutler on Editing Enjoyment:
  "Of course, of course it's fantastic. If it's not enjoyable, maybe consider a different line of work, I would say."
  [22:14]

• RJ Cutler on Fame:
  "I try to impress upon my kids that fame isn't what it looks like. And that from what I've seen, it's certainly a double-edged sword."
  [40:13]

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Conclusion

Episode 632 of Freakonomics Radio offers a comprehensive exploration of the documentary film landscape through the lens of RJ Cutler's experiences and insights. Listeners gain a deeper understanding of the complexities involved in creating authentic documentaries, the importance of ethical filmmaking, and the factors driving the genre's increasing popularity in the streaming age.

For those intrigued by the intersection of economics, behavior, and storytelling, this episode provides a rich and engaging narrative that underscores the transformative power of documentaries in shaping public perception and cultural discourse.

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Produced by:
Zach Lipinski, Morgan Levy
Mixed by: Jasmine Klinger, Jeremy Johnston
Research and Contributions: Alina Coleman, Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abuaji, Elinor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Sarah Lilly, Teo Jacobs
Theme Song: "Mr. Fortune" by The Hitchhikers
Composer: Luis Guerra

Transcript

[Stephen Dubner]

Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. Dive into the market with E Trade's easy to use tools. Now there's even more to love. Get access to expert insights from Morgan Stanley to help navigate the markets. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Learn [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast. Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1NA member FDIC over the past few episodes of Freakonomics Radio, we dug into the economics of live theater and we followed one show on its long journey toward Broadway. In that series we learned that live theater has become very expensive to produce, so ticket prices have also risen and and at the same time attendance is falling. So if fewer people are watching plays and musicals, what are they watching? It turns out that a lot of people, and I mean a lot of them, are watching documentary films.

[RJ Cutler]

This explosion of documentary on streaming, the conviction that this was a popular art form and its full popularity was just waiting to happen, is what matters most.

[Stephen Dubner]

RJ Cutler is an Emmy Award winning filmmaker who has produced and or directed dozens of documentaries. You may not know his name, but there's a good chance you've seen his work. Martha, his film about Martha Stewart, has been a big hit on Netflix. He recently made a film about the young pop star Billie Eilish called the World's A Little Blurry, and a film about the old pop star Elton John called Never too late. His 2009 film the September Issue shadowed Vogue magazine editor Anna Wintour and her colleague and sometimes antagonist Grace Coddington. Cutler has also made a number of political documentaries like the World According to Dick Cheney and A Perfect Candidate, about the failed Senate race of Oliver north, and his first film, the War Room, which was about Bill Clinton's first presidential campaign. That one was nominated for an Academy Award. Cutler's most recent project is a docu series on Apple TV plus called Fight for Glory, about the 2024 World Series. You may also recognize Cutler's name if you are a regular freakonomics Radio listener. A few months ago, we did a live show in Los Angeles that was supposed to be recorded for this podcast, but the theater failed to record the show, which was a shame because we had two great guests that night. One was the Hollywood super agent and entrepreneur Ari Emanuel, and the other was RJ Cutler. As for Ari, him we had interviewed a couple years ago in a studio episode number 544. So you can hear that if you'd like, but RJ had never been on this show before, so we asked him to sit down in a studio and try again.

[RJ Cutler]

Oh, you mean we taped this?

[Stephen Dubner]

Yes, we did tape it, you wise ass. Today on Freakonomics Radio, the filmmaker becomes the subject. And it starts now.

[RJ Cutler]

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with.

[Stephen Dubner]

With your host, Stephen Dubner.

[RJ Cutler]

Hello, Stephen.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hello, R.J. robert James. What is R.J. jason.

[RJ Cutler]

Robert Jason.

[Stephen Dubner]

R.J. are such good initials.

[RJ Cutler]

They are. You know, my mother insisted on naming me R.J. well, she actually named me Robert Jason so that she could call me rj. That was her plan. Wouldn't let me change it. She passed away recently. One of the stories I recounted at her funeral was that when I was in 8th grade, there was a 9th grade girl from the other high school in town who I had a crush on, who called me Rob. I came home one day and said, I'm changing my name to Rob. And my mother would not hear of it. She didn't even want to discuss it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Robert Jason Cutler grew up in Great Neck, New York, on Long Island. He loved sports and journalism. He started his own underground magazine, and he also loved theater. At Harvard, he studied dramatic theory, and one important lesson stayed with him.

[RJ Cutler]

I can't remember the number of times a teacher said to me something like, you're gathering people in a theater. You've asked them to come and spend three hours of their lives with you. You better have, and you better damn well know what it is.

[Stephen Dubner]

After college, Cutler got work on some major theatrical productions, including the Stephen Sondheim musical Into the woods, assisting the playwright and director James Lapine. Cutler also directed a workshop of Jonathan Larson's first musical, Superbia. Years before Larson wrote Rent.

[RJ Cutler]

Even though I was a theater kid who was very committed to my career in the theater and pursued it, you know, with some real success, into my late twenties. I always had in the back of my mind that I would end up making documentaries and I would speak to people about it, and it was such an odd thing. It's not a well worn path talk.

[Stephen Dubner]

Me through the recent half century life cycle of documentary film, including your mentors and heroes and this evolution of documentary generally.

[RJ Cutler]

The essence of the American documentary movement, which comes of age in the early 1960s in the hands of people like D.A. pennebaker and Ricky Leacock and Alan David Maisels and Robert Drew and others, is that the technology has advanced to the point where you can carry a camera on your shoulder, have sync sound and film people through their lives. This is an enormous breakthrough and it allows people to make what are extraordinary films. Films about politics such as Crisis and Primary, which tell stories of the Kennedys and others who were running for office. Films like Don't Look Back about Bob Dylan and Gimme Shelter about the Rolling Stones. Soon thereafter, films like Harlan County, USA by Barbara Koppel, which is a film that had an enormous personal impact on me when I first saw it. All of these films, they have many things in common, but the biggest one is that they are made by people who have a conviction that this art form is as viable as scripted filmmaking and that it has a place in cinema the same way that scripted filmmaking does. Documentaries are no longer just about education. They are fully cinema, fully narrative, fully character driven, and as I like to say, just like a real film. The idea was, if Cary Grant and Robert Redford could be movie stars, why too couldn't the coal miners from Harlan county be movie stars? Why couldn't Mick Jagger be a movie star? And they were right.

[Stephen Dubner]

At what point did you become a believer in that thesis?

[RJ Cutler]

I became a believer in that thesis without even knowing that I was being a believer. I became a believer when I saw these films as a. And as a college student, most of all as a 17 year old seeing Harlan County USA by the way, on a TV set, a PBS screening on a rainy evening that I can remember as if it were yesterday. And being so mesmerized not only by the narrative and the filmmaking, but by the voice of the director off screen, Barbara Koppel in the middle of what was essentially a war zone. These battles between the local coal miners and the thugs worked for the mining company who were threatening to kill them. And there she was in the middle of all of it. This was the film that made me think, this is what I want to do.

[Stephen Dubner]

In 1992, Cutler had an idea for a documentary that would track that year's presidential campaign, including the rise of the young Arkansas governor Bill Clinton.

[RJ Cutler]

When I started with the War Room, you could count the number of career documentary filmmakers on two hands.

[Stephen Dubner]

Two of those filmmakers were the Husband and wife team of D.A. pennebaker and Chris Hejadis. They liked Cutler's idea and they took on the project as directors. Only the Clinton campaign gave them access. So the film focused on James Carville, the campaign's lead strategist, and George Stephanopoulos, its communications director. Even today, there are many memorable moments in the War Room. This is the origin of it's the economy, stupid. One of my favorite moments is an emotional speech given by Carville to a room full of campaign workers when it's looking like their candidate will win.

[RJ Cutler]

There's a simple doctrine. Outside of a person's love, the most.

[Stephen Dubner]

Sacred thing that they can give is their labor. Labor is a very precious thing that you have.

[RJ Cutler]

The harder you work, the luckier you are. I was 33 years old before I.

[Stephen Dubner]

Ever went to Washington, New York, 42.

[RJ Cutler]

Before I won my first campaign. And I'm happy for all of y'all.

[Stephen Dubner]

You've been part of something special in my life.

[RJ Cutler]

Now.

[Stephen Dubner]

Never forget the job done.

[RJ Cutler]

Thank you.

[Stephen Dubner]

The War room premiered in 1993, and by documentary standards, it was a huge hit, grossing nearly a million dollars. Back then, most people who saw new movies still watched them in theaters. The biggest rental company was blockbuster. A few years later, Netflix would emerge.

[RJ Cutler]

As a competitor, as the producer of the War Room. I would run into Ted Sarandos at film festivals, the head of Netflix, when Netflix was a red envelope company that was sending out DVDs. And every time I'd see him, he would tell me that the War Room was one of the most pop films that he was sending out. His membership loved documentaries, and the War Room was one of their favorite films. So when Netflix started to do original programming with House of Cards, it was obvious to me that documentaries were going to soon follow. And what do you know? They soon followed. And now we have evidence. They have the data. They know how many people watch them. They know who watches them.

[Stephen Dubner]

They don't like to share the data, but they have it. They don't like to share it with the public.

[RJ Cutler]

They share with some of us.

[Stephen Dubner]

And the numbers are good on that point. Let me ask you this. The story you just told me about Ted Sarandos and the War Room being so popular among the early subscribers of Netflix would suggest to me, but please tell me if I'm wrong, that lying out there, sort of dormant or underserved this whole time, the last several decades, was a large audience for documentary films, but that the system, the filmmaking system, Hollywood and the theater system and so on, didn't Pay as much attention to documentaries as to the standard fiction films. Do you think that was the case, that there was dormant demand out there that nobody ever knew? And that's why we're seeing so much demand now, is simply there is a distribution technology that allows that demand to be satisfying.

[RJ Cutler]

Well, every town with an art house was showing documentaries. October films and Fine Line Films, part of New Line and Miramax, which became the Weinstein Company, and others were distributing documentaries. War Room ran for months and months in the art houses. George Stephanopoulos was a matinee idol as a result. But the art house audience is smaller than the multiplex audience, and it always was and it always will be. Now the art house comes to you through the streaming services. So if you are someone who loves a documentary, those people now have a healthy menu of films to see.

[Stephen Dubner]

I've seen you describe yourself as a theater director who makes documentary films. I mean, it's now coming clear to me that that is technically and literally true. But what does that mean? How does it manifest itself, do you think?

[RJ Cutler]

I mean, this is the foundation of my training. Structurally. I think of narrative as Aristotle taught me to. I want the audience to have a rollicking good time at the theater. I want them to laugh and cry and stomp their. I'm thinking cinematically as well, but I'm also thinking in terms of character and obstacle and overcoming obstacle, and the things we learn when we overcome obstacle. One of the things you look for when you're making a film is an inherent structure. There's nothing better than Election Day. There's nothing better than graduation. And if you're making a film about Billie Eilish, there's nothing better than the Grammys. But we didn't know that she was gonna win however many Grammy awards she won that night. And there were an armful.

[Stephen Dubner]

This was the 2020 Grammy Awards, when Eilish won Album of the Year, Record of the Year, Song of the Year, Best Pop Vocal Album, and Best New artist. She was 18 years old. Cutler had been embedded with Eilish and her family. Her older brother, Phineas, who's also her collaborator and producer, and their parents, Maggie and Patrick, who homeschooled the kids.

[RJ Cutler]

I made this film at a time when I was probably a little out of love with documentary filmmaking. A little bit had lost the spark, and this film rekindled that spark in a huge way.

[Stephen Dubner]

How did you meet the Eilish family?

[RJ Cutler]

I was invited to meet with them. They had seen the September Issue, they had seen the War Room. I think they were familiar with my work, and I was one of the people that they met with, and we instantly connected.

[Stephen Dubner]

And so there were others they were interested in also.

[RJ Cutler]

I don't really know the full details. When someone invites you to a party, you don't ask them who else is invited, and you don't ask them why. In that case, I was thrilled to meet them and I was thrilled to work with them because it was very clear to me that there was a purely verite film to be made, a film that would tell the story of the coming period of their life. Billi, I think, was 16 at the time. She and Phineas were in the middle of writing When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? Their first full album. I was intrigued thematically. I was intrigued in terms of who they were. I saw in this a great film about family and a great film about raising kids. I saw in it a great film about being an artistic prodigy, as they both. Both Phineas and Billy are. And being kids coming of age in America at a very particular moment in the world, I saw that all at once. That much was very clear to me. And so once we started filming, you are doing what I call following the puck. At the height of his success, Wayne Gretzky was interviewed, and he was asked what was his secret. Wayne Gretzky being one of the greatest hockey players to ever live. Gretzky said, well, it's quite simple. I just follow the puck. And that's what we must do as verite filmmakers. We must follow the puck. We must try to see life as clearly as possible and tell the story that is unfolding in front of us.

[Stephen Dubner]

The Gretzky quote, as I've always heard it, is a little bit different from what you just said. It's something like, skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it is. So when you're thinking about the Billy, let's call it the Billy and Phineas story, because he's obviously so central to it as well. Tell us what you knew and thought about them when you started working with them and where you thought maybe they were going.

[RJ Cutler]

I saw them in their moment. I do have a different sense of it. I'm not looking for where you're going. I'm not expecting anything. I'm asking questions. I'm not answering anything. People would say to me, what were the biggest surprises you had in making the film about Billie Eilish? And I don't have surprises because that would mean that you're expecting one thing and something else happens.

[Stephen Dubner]

In One scene of the Billie Eilish documentary. A producer on Cutler's team named Chelsea Dodson asks Billy about choosing to speak out about the harmful effects of drugs. Billy's mom, Maggie, is also there. The first voice you'll hear now is Chelsea.

[RJ Cutler]

What do you both think about talking about your feelings about drugs and cigarettes and alcohol? My only thought is how, like, you say things and then maybe you grow up and feel differently and then get dragged for it. But I have my moment and then I do drugs and then people are like, ha, ha, I'm a wee.

[Stephen Dubner]

And then Maggie speaks up. Are you actually not gonna let her be authentic to who she is now in case she grows up to do drugs?

[RJ Cutler]

No, no, I don't mean doing any of that. Can you do this? Please stop yelling at Chelsea. I'm not yelling.

[Stephen Dubner]

I just.

[RJ Cutler]

I just think that's borrowing trouble and.

[Stephen Dubner]

Well, she's right, though.

[RJ Cutler]

She has a point. Well, maybe don't grow up to do that.

[Stephen Dubner]

What do you have to plan right now? That every person who does what you do has to grow up and up that way. And you have to plan it so.

[RJ Cutler]

That you don't get hate later when you do it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Because when you were younger, you said you wouldn't. You know, why are your parents with you all the time?

[RJ Cutler]

I mean, you've got a whole army.

[Stephen Dubner]

Of people trying to help you not decide to destroy your life like people in your shoes have done before.

[RJ Cutler]

So are we gonna literally not release.

[Stephen Dubner]

Something for fear that later she will do that? When you're that intimately involved in a family, in this case or a scenario of any sort, how concerned are you that your presence is influencing events?

[RJ Cutler]

I'm not concerned that it's influencing events in large part because I don't think of myself as a camera. I think of myself as a person, and I don't think of myself being there as a film crew or as a fly on the wall. One of the great misperceptions of what we do is that we're flies on the wall. You've met me. I'm six foot one. I'm no fly. I've got red hair and a beard. I come with a guy with a microphone and a woman with a camera. We're people. We' in a room and we're in a dynamic. We're in a relationship. And like all good relationships, the relationship thrives if there's trust. If we feel like we're impacting the environment, we get out of there. I'm always saying, let's stop shooting 15 minutes before they ask us to stop shooting.

[Stephen Dubner]

Talk to me about editing. I want to know who does what and how big your team is. I'm also thinking about what Sean Baker, the director of Enora, said when he won the Oscars. He won for direction and editing and something else.

[RJ Cutler]

And producing, right?

[Stephen Dubner]

Best Picture and best screenplay too. Anyway, in his acceptance speech for the editing award, he said, if you saw the footage, I saved this film in the edit. Trust me, that director should never work again. Which was funny, of course, because he was also the director. So in your case, how does it work? What kind of team do you have and what does everybody do?

[RJ Cutler]

Well, I have a very small team and it includes two editors in the case of this film. Greg Fenton, an editor who I had worked with since 1999 and who had edited many projects that I had done, and Lindsay Utes, a brilliant editor who I had never worked with before. They were my editing team. And Jonathan Ruane, who's a producer and a researcher, was a post production story producer for the project. And the four of us were the team. And you are starting at the beginning. You know, you have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of footage. You're identifying first everything that you have and then everything you think you need to look at. And we spent a month, every day just looking at what we considered to be the golden scenes. And then we met for several days and then we talked about it and added some scenes and removed others. And then the editors worked for another couple of months and then they had a 27 hour cut.

[Stephen Dubner]

Wow.

[RJ Cutler]

And we watched the 27 hours.

[Stephen Dubner]

Is this part of the process enjoyable at all? Because it sounds.

[RJ Cutler]

Of course, of course it's fantastic. If it's not enjoyable, maybe consider a different line of work, I would say. But for us, yes, it's enjoyable and it's illuminating. And sure, there are moments where your mind wanders, but that's illuminating too, right? And then there are moments where you're riveted and your heart is pounding, and that's illuminating. We discovered story and we discovered character and we discovered journey and we discovered how long the film wanted to be. You know, it's a 2 hour and 20 minute film with an intermission. And when Billy saw it, she said that she didn't think it was possible for anybody to see her the way she saw herself. It's a film I'm incredibly proud of.

[Stephen Dubner]

Coming up after the break, from a teenager who's about to be a pop star to a superstar who's about to get busted Guilty, guilty, guilty on all these counts of whatever. That's Martha Stewart. I'm Stephen Dubner and this is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freeconomics Radio is sponsored by Walmart plus, actually designed to help you save more time and money. No statistics needed here. We all have reasons we need to save more time and money. Whether you are a busy parent, dedicated pet parent or student on a shoestring budget, Walmart Plus Savings can be a lifesaver for anyone who shops at Walmart and wants to get even more savings. Another big plus is an included Paramount plus subscription so you can watch blockbuster movies, original series and more. Walmart. It's Walmart Plus Plus. Free delivery, free shipping, gas discounts, video streaming plus so much more. Start a free 30 day trial at PlusWallmart.com See Walmart terms and conditions $35 order minimum Paramount plus essential plan only. Separate registration required. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Amazon. The last thing you want to do when you're sick is go to the pharmacy to pick up a prescription because then you're standing in a long line with a whole bunch of sick people and everyone is sick of being sick around other people who are sick. Amazon Pharmacy will deliver right to you fast so you can get meds without congregating amongst the contagious. Healthcare just got less painful. Amazon Pharmacy Netcredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line.

[RJ Cutler]

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[Stephen Dubner]

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[RJ Cutler]

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[Stephen Dubner]

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[RJ Cutler]

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[Stephen Dubner]

NetCredit credit to the People thanks to streaming services like Netflix and Amazon prime and Apple tv, documentary films are no longer confined to the art house theaters where RJ Cutler used to see them. Let me read you something from a recent piece in New York magazine. Between 2018 and 2021, demand for documentaries on streaming services more than doubled, and films that once had hoped to eke out a couple million bucks at the box office were now selling to streamers for 10 or 15 or 20 million dollars. When Cutler was coming up, deciding to make documentaries for a living was like taking a vow of poverty and probably obscurity too. But that is not the case today. Consider Cutler's 2024 film about Martha Stewart.

[RJ Cutler]

I'm told between 30 and 40 million people saw that movie.

[Stephen Dubner]

Stewart has been called the original influencer. She was also the first self made female billionaire in American history. Cutler's film tracks her life from her childhood in New Jersey to a couple of early successes as a model and a stockbroker, to the creation of her lifestyle empire, and then a conviction on felony charges related to insider trading that sent her to prison for five months and bruised her brand badly. But she has been rehabilitating herself ever since. Cutler's film is a chronicle of that comeback, and to some degree, a part of it. I asked Cutler how this project happened.

[RJ Cutler]

That film came about because my wife, Jane, and I, we go to Montauk, Long Island. We're both from Long island, and we love to go back to Long Island a couple of weeks every year, and we bring our kids. And we were having dinner with our friend Alina, and that afternoon, Alina called and said, would you mind? Martha Stewart would like to join us at dinner. And we both said, that sounds terrific. Let's have dinner with Martha Stewart.

[Stephen Dubner]

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Did it not make you a little bit nervous about what you were serving and maybe how the house looked?

[RJ Cutler]

I'm very confident in my cooking, but we were going out to dinner.

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh, good move.

[RJ Cutler]

And out to dinner we went, and I sat with Martha, and what a lovely evening we had. We talked all about her upbringing and her background and her family. And I learned that, counterintuitively, she was not a child of privilege, but one who came from a working class background, one of six children who herself had to go to work as a teenager to feed her family because her father had a hard time holding down a job. I learned all sorts of things about her, and I also got the strong sense that she was interested in having a film made about her.

[Stephen Dubner]

Is that why she invited herself to the dinner?

[RJ Cutler]

It seemed very clear that that's why she invited herself to the dinner. And so a conversation began, because I was certainly intrigued. I didn't know a lot about her going in, of course, I knew the fundamentals, but I wasn't somebody who subscribed to her magazine. I was not somebody who watched her show on a daily basis, But I was aware of her. And then at dinner, I became incredibly intrigued. And in subsequent meetings and conversations, we decided to make a film together.

[Stephen Dubner]

A lot of documentaries, including biographies, use talking heads to fill out the story. Friends and family of the subject may be a rival or critic. And you do use talking heads in Martha, but we never see them. We only hear their voices. So was that something that you did from the outset? Did you shoot them on film and then only use audio or did you decide early on to only record audio? And I'm just curious how much of the vision of the finished film was made as you were producing?

[RJ Cutler]

Yeah, that's a great question, because in this case, it shows how the form and content in post production can interface and get you where you're trying to go but don't know how to get to. I knew that we wanted to interview Martha on camera. She's Martha Stewart, and I wanted her to be at the center of her film. Her story has been told so many times before, but never by her. I knew that I wanted to interview Martha on camera, but I'm always looking and I'm always open to alternatives. I don't want analytical talking heads that pull you out of the moment. I want you to be in the moment. In this case, I nevertheless started interviewing people on camera and we would edit them in. And I just. I didn't like it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Did it take you out of the flow?

[RJ Cutler]

It took you out of the flow. I didn't understand why I was looking at people in their living rooms talking about something that had happened 30 years ago. It wasn't the cinema that I felt this story needed. One day he said, let's take everybody off camera, but keep Martha on camera. And what do you know? There it was. Martha emerged as the center of the film. Martha emerged as a complicated central character in a way that she hadn't been quite as much before. The fact that she's kind of an unreliable narrator became more of the. And that's a literary construct, but a very revealing one. People reveal themselves in the things they say and the things they don't say. They reveal themselves in the truths they share and in the mistruths that they share.

[Stephen Dubner]

So you could use that audio documentary, the voices of the people who were with her, but you would use them sometimes to challenge or to expand the version of reality that she's giving. As you're putting that together, how concerned are you about offending her? I remember one time you asked her about her feelings and she says, you know, I'd rather do things.

[RJ Cutler]

Have you had any relationships where you talk about your feelings? No. And that's probably why I haven't had very many personal relationships with men, for example, because I couldn't care less. I don't know what the real reason is. It doesn't interest me so much to know, you know, oh, Charles, how do you feel this second? I don't care. Actually, I do care about Charles. What are you doing? What are you thinking about? So I sort of gravitate towards people who are doing things all the time. And I think more about everything that I'm doing. Things that I'm working on, things that I'd like to work on, things that I'd like to accomplish. That's where I'm best.

[Stephen Dubner]

And it's so revealing about her, but it also is a little bit of a slap. Like, you know, hey, we're doing this in a certain way and not that way. I'm curious, when you're editing that, do you think about that as slightly hostile testimony in a trial kind of voice? Are you thinking about how she is going to respond to it?

[RJ Cutler]

Honestly, I'm just thinking about making the film. I hear what you're saying and clearly I'm including those moments in the film because I want you to understand that it's very difficult for Martha to open up in this way. Cause it has to do with who she is as a person. It's great that I can be the foil because that illuminates who she is. And that's what I'm thinking about is clarity there. And same with the other voices. I'm looking for clarity and complexity and, you know, a journey towards truth on your behalf as a viewer.

[Stephen Dubner]

I found one of the most powerful pieces of that film was around a series of letters that she had written to her then husband. You're interviewing her about this marriage that ended up going bad. At one point she basically says to you, rj, you know, like I gave you the letters.

[RJ Cutler]

It's hard for me personally to talk about it. Some people revel in this self pity, et cetera, et cetera. I just don't. They handed over letters that were very personal. So guess what? Take it out of the letters. Dearest Andy, I cannot sleep, I cannot.

[Stephen Dubner]

Eat, my skin is worried. And many lines that were not there are now there. Talk to me about those letters, about what it's like to come upon material like that and how you think it through.

[RJ Cutler]

Well, it's a great resource for filmmaker who's looking to tell the truth in the moment. Letters are a verite element and they're better than someone describing what they remember or what they said. It's as valuable as a piece of film. And I was incredibly grateful to her for trusting us with them. And by the way, there's a 45 minute audio edit of the full length of letters that she gave us that is riveting and powerful and very emotional because it's the letters written during a divorce, you know, and a woman whose heart is broken, talked me through the.

[Stephen Dubner]

Completion and release of that film and especially Martha Stewart's reaction. Anyone who's read the media a little bit about her response will have, I think, a misperception of the reality. According to what you've told me earlier.

[RJ Cutler]

A person who's in a film like this, especially somebody who's used to controlling their image and their narrative for their whole career and who's had some ups and downs and difficult times, is going to be very vulnerable seeing the film. I mean, if I made a film about you and showed it to you, it would probably differ than the film you would make. If you made a film about me and showed it to me, it would different than the film I would make about me. It shouldn't surprise any of us that Martha Stewart would have made a different film than I did in those early days. She was public about the fact that she wished I had used different music. And there was a scene towards the end of the film where she felt it didn't depict her as flatteringly as she would have.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right. She said she just had an Achilles injury and it made her look older than she actually is.

[RJ Cutler]

Yes, yes.

[Stephen Dubner]

More fragile.

[RJ Cutler]

I'm, believe me, empathetic. And we might not have used the footage she was referring to if it wasn't also incredibly beautiful and powerful and poetic and if it didn't show her extraordinary landscaping abilities, which was a central metaphor in the film. It's not that I minded her having the criticism. It probably, you know, suggested to some people that they would want to see the film, to see what all the hullabaloo was about. Martha continues to be incredibly supportive of the film and we speak all the time. What Martha has told me is that everywhere she goes, young women come up to her to tell her that her story of overcoming adversity has inspired them and adversity at multiple times in her life. She is a survivor.

[Stephen Dubner]

Coming up after the break, who wouldn't RJ Cutler make a film about?

[RJ Cutler]

My mother used to say, don't do anything you don't want to read about on the front page of the New York Times. There's a version of that here.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm Stephen Dubner, this is freeconomics Radio. We'll be right back. Netcredit is here to say yes because you're more than a credit score. Apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. Loans offered by NetCredit or lending partner bank and service by NetCredit. Applications subject to review and approval.

[RJ Cutler]

Learn more at netcredit.com partners netcredit Credit.

[Stephen Dubner]

To the people to realize the future America needs. We understand what's needed from us to face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this. At LinkedIn we know hiring is a big deal for your small business. Sometimes it can feel a little, ah, overwhelming. LinkedIn uses data that you can't find anywhere else to give you the best candidates. All so you can feel confident you're hiring the best person for the job. And even a little hiring Bliss. See why 86% of small businesses who post a job on LinkedIn get a qualified candidate within a day. Post a job for [e-mail] acquire LinkedIn. Your next great hire is here. The latest release from the documentary filmmaker RJ Cutler is called Fight for Glory. It's a three parter about the 2024 World Series. Cutler and his crew were down in the dugouts of both the Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Yankees. Spoiler alert, the Dodgers win. Cutler is a lifelong and hardcore fan of the other New York baseball team, the Mets. His brother used to take piano lessons from one Mrs. Cohen, who happens to be the mother of the Mets current owner Steve Cohen. Cutler is very much hoping that the Mets make it to the World Series this year and that Apple asks him to make that version of Fight for Glory.

[RJ Cutler]

I will do anything to make the New York Mets Film. Baseball is a beautiful game that has so much to teach us about life and about overcoming adversity. It's a game of failure. A success rate in baseball is 30%. That means 70% of the time you're Juan Soto grounding into a double play with the bases loaded like he did yesterday at a critical moment.

[Stephen Dubner]

You know, rj, when you describe baseball as an exercise in overcoming adversity, it strikes me that every film you've ever made has had overcoming adversity at the core of the people you're following.

[RJ Cutler]

No, this is life, you know, this is life. It's certainly something that attracts me to the subjects I've made films about. And everybody has adversity that they've had to overcome. And it's the way who we are is defined.

[Stephen Dubner]

We might think of you as celebrity adjacent, right? You're not a celebrity quite. You're well known, but you've spent a lot of time with people who are really famous. So I wonder if you could just talk for a moment about fame and the costs especially. I think a lot of people think that being famous is mostly wonderful because it also comes with wealth and power. I would argue wealth and power are kind of separate. And if you could have those without the fame, it might be better. I wonder what you can tell us that you've seen about fame per se, having spent time with a number of people in a very intimate way, people who are famous and who have to deal with the upsides and downsides.

[RJ Cutler]

Well, I guess I will answer that by saying that I try to impress upon my kids that fame isn't what it looks like. And that from what I've seen, it's certainly a double edged sword. It's a culture that worships fame. Sometimes I'm not quite sure I understand why I get asked about, you know, fame as a subject, and I understand that it has become a subject of some of the films that I've done. But I don't really see that as what has attracted me to the famous people I've made movies about. I see their greatness as the thing that attracts me more than their fame.

[Stephen Dubner]

I mean, what you're pointing out about greatness, most people get famous because they're great. The problem is the thing that made them great at the thing they do has nothing to do with the ability to be famous. And indeed, even among some performers who set out to perform in public, they seem really overwhelmed if they happen to become famous. And then they have to deal with that. It just seems like it's a condition, a side effect of greatness. Maybe as much as anything.

[RJ Cutler]

If you were around before People magazine, which I was, you've seen the culture change. Remember when People was just a column in Time magazine and then it became its own magazine and we used to. You've seen the culture change and of course the Internet changes it. I remember meeting a famous person in my early 20s and thinking, oh, she's famous for being famous now. That's the culture. The culture is people who are famous for being famous. We have to understand fully what the real value is.

[Stephen Dubner]

Let me ask you this. I can go to Netflix and watch your documentary about Martha Stewart. And I appreciate that it's a real piece of documentary work and all the things that that entails. I believe it to be nonfiction. I don't think anybody's making up stuff, I don't think anybody's leaving anything substantial out, et cetera. So to me, it's not journalism, but it's a cousin at least of journalism. But then I can also watch a lot of other docs on Netflix or Amazon or elsewhere. About well known people that are made to feel and look pretty similar to, let's say, a Martha Stewart documentary, but I know are made with a very different level and type of cooperation. They're essentially commissioned portraits. And I, as both journalist and as a consumer, I'm not super thrilled about that. And I'm curious to know your take on this topic.

[RJ Cutler]

I think that it is absolutely critical that, you know, viewers have a sense of who's making the films that they're looking at. I'm a big proponent of media literacy. I think you should have a strong sense of what you're looking at and who the sources are. I think if you're watching one news service, you should know the difference between it and another news service. I think if you're reading a tweet online, you should know the source of that. And I think that if you're looking at a documentary, you should know the source of that. And I can only speak to my own work and the rigor with which we pursue truth. But we're filmmakers, we're artists, we're looking at the more poetic mysteries of life and its complexities rather than the journalistic facts of the matter. As much as we are equally obliged to the truth as journalists, what we do is very different.

[Stephen Dubner]

I assume no money changed hands. Martha Stewart does not commission you to make a film about her, correct?

[RJ Cutler]

Oh, no, of course not.

[Stephen Dubner]

Would you ever accept a commission if Bill Gates or someone comes and says, rj, I think your films are great. I want you to make an honest film about me, but I want you to make a film about me. And here's 5 million, $20 million to make it. What do you do?

[RJ Cutler]

Well, those are two different numbers.

[Stephen Dubner]

So that means 20, yes, five, no.

[RJ Cutler]

Let's just say I call some people to talk it through and they make sure I make the right decision. I'm very blessed in that I have wise counsel from my partners.

[Stephen Dubner]

I thought you were going to say you're blessed in that you've been able to make the work that you want to make without strings and get paid for it. That's also true.

[RJ Cutler]

Yes, all of that is true. That's an even better answer.

[Stephen Dubner]

What's the difference between or where is the line between access and approval?

[RJ Cutler]

The line between access and approval is a conversation that I try to have with everyone as early in the process as possible. And that is the line of final cut. I had that conversation with Martha that very first evening and she embraced it the way that Billie Eilish embraced it and her parents embraced it the way that Anna Wintour embraced it, the way that everybody who I've worked with since the beginning has embraced it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Define final cut for those who don't.

[RJ Cutler]

Know if the director has final cut. The director is making all the decisions. That doesn't mean that I don't respect the fact that the story belongs to the subject. It doesn't mean that I don't share the film beforehand and hear their feedback. But final decisions are mine.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tell me about a project that you've been offered and rejected.

[RJ Cutler]

Oh, goodness, I don't know.

[Stephen Dubner]

What if, for instance, In November of 2023, Hamas came to you and said, you know, RJ, we think we're being misportrayed here?

[RJ Cutler]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Stephen Dubner]

But we'll offer you a full embedding, full access to everything.

[RJ Cutler]

I mean, it depends on the circumstances. That doesn't sound like anywhere you should. Anybody who loves me would advise me to go. My mother used to say, bless her memory. My mother used to say, don't do anything you don't want to read about on the front page of the New York Times. But. But, you know, listen, I made a movie about Dick Cheney. It's called the World According to Dick Cheney. He is somebody with whom I have absolutely no political common ground. But I was fascinated by him. Here's perhaps the single most powerful and impactful non presidential political figure in American history. And he agreed to let me make a film.

[Stephen Dubner]

And sat for a deep interview with you.

[RJ Cutler]

Yes, five days of long interviews. And I'm really glad that I did. So I'm not saying I always would need to agree with the subject, but, you know, there's. We get into all sorts of complexities and I'm not going to make a propaganda film about anybody.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tell me, with the Chaney film, how did it change you? Or what did you learn about yourself? Not about him. But, you know, I think the reason all of us who write or make stuff do it is because it's thrilling to put yourself around people that are unlike you, to put yourself in situations that are unlike yours, because it changes you. So what happened in that case for you?

[RJ Cutler]

Certainly, talking with him for those five days, eight hours a day, required an intellectual rigor and a level of engagement that was very satisfying. I mean, Dick Cheney is a remarkable figure. And what was very interesting to me was how he had changed over time. He was the youngest presidential chief of staff in American history, as Gerald Ford's chief of staff, and somebody who had started his life. You know, his Adult life as a drunk forever dropping out of school and not really having a promising future until he got his alcoholism under control and then focused on his education and then on his career in Washington.

[Stephen Dubner]

Sounds like what you're saying you learned was that you could have afforded to drink more in your youth.

[RJ Cutler]

I learned a lot about him, but I also learned a lot about the conflict between duty and honor, which is something that he and I spoke about and differed on and the film differs from him on. He felt that duty outranked honor, and I think it led him to do some damaging things.

[Stephen Dubner]

So, rj, you've made a number of films about politics, politicians, the electoral process. I want you to talk to me about Donald Trump. What do you see when you see him on tv? How do you think about him shaping his image and influencing the public? Who does he remind you of, et cetera?

[RJ Cutler]

Well, I see a man who reminds me politically of Oliver north, who is the subject of A Perfect Candidate. The film that David Van Taylor and I made in 1994 about Oliver North's Senate campaign, I see a playbook that's very familiar, a playbook of grievance and one that taps into a kind of dark side of American history and identity. I see a master media manipulator. Those of us who grew up in New York and are New Yorkers know we've seen Donald Trump our whole careers. We know his playbook and we know Roy Cohn's playbook, and we see it in action. What Oliver north didn't have and Donald Trump does have is an incredibly powerful media machine in Fox News. And I see that as a difference maker, a very, very powerful difference maker in its impact on his political success. I don't think that the anger that Trump taps into is not genuine, but the manipulation of the truth becomes a lot easier in the culture that we're in right now.

[Stephen Dubner]

Have you thought about making a film on Trump?

[RJ Cutler]

No, no, No. I mean, I would always be curious to film in a verite environment that involves the government of my country. Honestly, I would be very curious. But do I get final cut? If the answer is no, then no, I'm not interested.

[Stephen Dubner]

What if you did?

[RJ Cutler]

If I were invited to film for 10 days in the Oval Office?

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, sure.

[RJ Cutler]

I'd be honored and curious.

[Stephen Dubner]

So we do have a lot of listeners to this program in the White House. We hear from them, you know, now and again. It sounds as though if an invitation were extended, you would accept. Chief condition being final cut, correct?

[RJ Cutler]

Yes. And I'm grateful to you for negotiating this on my behalf.

[Stephen Dubner]

You're welcome. I can get one of those tiny, tiny, tiny co executive junior producer credits when it's own, no problem. Tell me about your Greenland film project, what it is and the status.

[RJ Cutler]

We're just beginning and it's incredibly exciting. In the wake of the Second World War, in the early 1960s, during the Cold War, the United States built an underground city in Greenland that was ostensibly meant to monitor environmental issues and demonstrate survivability in Arctic areas. The Danish government knew that we were there and supported our efforts to be there. What the US Government didn't tell the Danish government was that it was really a military base for nuclear armaments pointed at the Soviet Union. We invaded Greenland in the early 1960s and we didn't tell the Danish government that we were there.

[Stephen Dubner]

Just to be clear, the Danish government is the official keeper of Greenland, correct?

[RJ Cutler]

That is correct. And by 1966 or so, the US government abandoned the project, sent everybody home and got rid of the nuclear reactor, but left all the nuclear waste and just assumed that it would remain buried under the ice forever. And guess what? Guess what doesn't happen when you bury your secrets. They don't stay buried, and they especially don't stay buried. With global warming and the polar ice cap melting, at what point did the.

[Stephen Dubner]

Danish government make this discovery?

[RJ Cutler]

They discovered that the US had put missiles there right around the turn of the century.

[Stephen Dubner]

So it wasn't until around the turn of the century that the existence of the base was even known outside of the military.

[RJ Cutler]

The existence of the base as a nuclear arsenal, that didn't get revealed for many decades. And then it wasn't until 2017 that a glaciologist revealed a study that this nuclear waste was at the rate that the polar ice cap was melting and the ice around Greenland was melting, this nuclear waste would be exposed in a dangerous way within decades. And as you get into the history of this, you realize that the United States has had designs on Greenland for decades. In fact, for more than decades, for 150 years. And that's what this movie that we're making is about.

[Stephen Dubner]

I mean, plainly this intersects with your professed willingness or appetite to make a film about the Trump White House. What do you know about the US Government's current level of concern about the situation under the ground there? In other words, to what degree is this being factored into the Trump administration's ideas about Greenland?

[RJ Cutler]

We're going to find out and we're going to look to tell that story. I admire your craft and your craftiness. You asked if out of the blue I was to receive a phone call inviting me to film in the Oval Office for a period of time, would I accept the invitation? And I said under any circumstances I would accept that invitation because it's true. And then later in your interview, you referred to my desire to make a film about the Trump administration.

[Stephen Dubner]

I think I maybe amended desire with appetite or something like that.

[RJ Cutler]

Appetite even, which is a more ferocious desire. I would like for the record to clarify that it is not part of my current plan or appetite to make a film about this administration. I'm experiencing it as a citizen and I'm pursuing my art in other ways.

[Stephen Dubner]

Noted, however short addendum. I learned my craftiness by watching documentary films. If we're being honest, I know no.

[RJ Cutler]

Craftier storytellers than my colleagues in the documentary world. It's an extraordinary community with amazing work being done every year. New films that push the form and are rising to the call of the popular success of the form. And the challenges are greater now than ever because of the challenges in the entertainment industry and the fact that the bubble burst a few years ago in terms of peak programming. So craftiness has called on even more.

[Stephen Dubner]

We're just about at time. I have another 1800 questions I could ask you, but I'm just curious. Is there a film, a topic, an idea, a person, a family member, a pet, anything you do want to talk about that I haven't asked about?

[RJ Cutler]

No. I'm grateful that you've covered so much. My dog's name is Dexter. He gets very little attention in these interviews, but he taught my wife and I about how to raise kids. He teaches us every day about love and empathy, and he's a good man. So since you gave me the chance to sing his praises, I will.

[Stephen Dubner]

That was R.J. cutler, also known as Rob Cutler, briefly, a long time ago. I'd like to thank him for the conversation today and the films he's made over the years. He's got a dedication to storytelling that I really admire. I would love to know what you thought about this episode. Our email is radio freakonomics.com and if you have any ideas for Cutler, we'll be sure to pass them along. Coming up next time on the show. Baseball is not the only way to learn from failure. One big reason we don't learn enough from failures is that we don't share them systematically enough. It makes it look like maybe you were incompetent.

[RJ Cutler]

The brain just knows that you've been abandoned part of of My problem was.

[Stephen Dubner]

I did not ask enough questions.

[RJ Cutler]

I think that was my tipping point where I just went, I'm done.

[Stephen Dubner]

And it broke me. But we don't want you to be broken. We look at failed relationships, failures of the imagination, failures of determination and how to overcome them. That's next time as we revisit and update our series, how to Succeed at Failing. Until then, take care of yourself and if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app. [e-mail] where we publish complete transcripts and show notes. This episode was produced by Zach Lipinski with help from Morgan Levy. It was mixed by Jasmine Klinger with help from Jeremy Johnston. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Alina Coleman, Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abuaji, Elinor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Sarah Lilly and Teo Jacobs. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers and our composer is Luis Guerra. As always, thank you for listening. Just to be clear, we do have your patent approval and permission to use this material in the making of our project, correct?

[RJ Cutler]

Yes you do. You have. Final cut.

[Stephen Dubner]

The Freakonomics Radio Network the.

[RJ Cutler]

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[Stephen Dubner]

To realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us to face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this.