Freakonomics Radio Episode 632: "When Did We All Start Watching Documentaries?"

Host: Stephen Dubner
Guest: RJ Cutler, Emmy Award-Winning Filmmaker
Release Date: May 2, 2025

Introduction

In episode 632 of Freakonomics Radio, Stephen Dubner delves into the burgeoning popularity of documentary films with acclaimed filmmaker RJ Cutler. This in-depth conversation explores the evolution of documentaries, Cutler's personal journey in filmmaking, his creative processes, and the shifting landscape of film distribution in the streaming era.

RJ Cutler's Documentary Journey

Background and Early Influences

RJ Cutler, an Emmy Award-winning filmmaker, boasts an impressive portfolio that includes documentaries like Martha, Never Too Late about Elton John, and the critically acclaimed The War Room. Cutler's passion for storytelling was ignited during his formative years in Great Neck, New York, where he balanced interests in sports, journalism, and theater. At Harvard, he studied dramatic theory, absorbing lessons on engaging audiences deeply and meaningfully.

[05:28] RJ Cutler: "I can't remember the number of times a teacher said to me something like, 'you're gathering people in a theater. You've asked them to come and spend three hours of their lives with you. You better have, and you better damn well know what it is.'"

Transition to Documentary Filmmaking

Despite his early success in theater, Cutler harbored a latent desire to explore documentary filmmaking. This aspiration solidified after witnessing Barbara Kopple's Harlan County, USA during his college years, an experience that profoundly influenced his commitment to the art form.

The Evolution of Documentary Films

Technological Breakthroughs

Cutler attributes the rise of modern documentaries to technological advancements in the 1960s, which made film equipment more portable and accessible. Pioneers like D.A. Pennebaker and Robert Drew utilized these tools to create immersive, character-driven narratives that rivaled scripted films in depth and engagement.

[06:35] RJ Cutler: "Documentaries are fully cinema, fully narrative, fully character-driven, and as I like to say, just like a real film."

Shift in Distribution and Popularity

Initially confined to art house theaters, documentaries found a broader audience through streaming platforms. Cutler notes Netflix's early support of documentaries like The War Room as pivotal in demonstrating the genre's mass appeal, leading to a significant increase in documentary production and viewership.

[12:03] RJ Cutler: "The art house audience is smaller than the multiplex audience, and it always was and it always will be. Now the art house comes to you through the streaming services."

Making "Billie Eilish: The World's A Little Blurry"

Concept and Collaboration

Cutler's documentary on pop sensation Billie Eilish, The World's A Little Blurry, provides an intimate look into the life of a young artist on the cusp of superstardom. Embedding with Eilish and her family, Cutler captures the dynamics of creativity, family, and the pressures of rising fame.

[14:36] Stephen Dubner: "This was the 2020 Grammy Awards, when Eilish won Album of the Year, Record of the Year, Song of the Year, Best Pop Vocal Album, and Best New Artist. She was 18 years old."

Rekindling Passion for Documentary Filmmaking

During the production of the Eilish documentary, Cutler experienced a resurgence of enthusiasm for documentary filmmaking, which had waned during a period of lesser projects.

[15:00] RJ Cutler: "I made this film at a time when I was probably a little out of love with documentary filmmaking. A little bit had lost the spark, and this film rekindled that spark in a huge way."

Filmmaking Process and Editing

Collaborative Editing

Cutler emphasizes the collaborative nature of documentary editing, working closely with his team to sift through extensive footage to identify "golden scenes." This meticulous process ensures the narrative remains compelling and true to the subjects' stories.

[21:10] RJ Cutler: "We spent a month, every day just looking at what we considered to be the golden scenes. And then we met for several days and then we talked about it and added some scenes and removed others."

Enjoyment in Discovery

Despite the daunting task of handling hundreds of hours of footage, Cutler finds the editing process both enjoyable and illuminating, allowing him to discover new facets of the story and characters.

[22:14] RJ Cutler: "Of course, of course it's fantastic. If it's not enjoyable, maybe consider a different line of work, I would say."

Working with Subjects: Martha Stewart

Initiating the Project

Cutler's documentary Martha is a nuanced portrayal of Martha Stewart's rise, fall, and redemption. The project began serendipitously when Stewart expressed interest in having a film made about her, leading to a deep and trusting collaboration.

[26:57] RJ Cutler: "My wife, Jane, and I... were having dinner with our friend Alina, and that afternoon, Alina called and said, 'Would you mind? Martha Stewart would like to join us at dinner.'"

Balancing Access and Creative Control

A cornerstone of Cutler's approach is maintaining final cut over his films, ensuring that the narrative remains authentic and untainted by external influences. This boundary was clearly communicated and respected from the outset of his work with Stewart.

[44:51] RJ Cutler: "The line between access and approval is a conversation that I try to have with everyone as early in the process as possible. And that is the line of final cut."

Navigating Sensitive Topics

The documentary candidly addresses personal aspects of Stewart's life, including her divorce, using primary sources like personal letters to enhance authenticity. Cutler skillfully balances revealing personal vulnerabilities while maintaining a respectful portrayal.

[33:05] Stephen Dubner: "I found one of the most powerful pieces of that film was around a series of letters that she had written to her then-husband."

Views on Fame and Documentary Ethics

Perception of Fame

Cutler offers a contemplative view on fame, distinguishing it from the subjects' inherent greatness. He critiques the culture of "famous for being famous," emphasizing his focus on the substantive achievements and personal stories of his subjects rather than their celebrity status.

[40:13] RJ Cutler: "I try to impress upon my kids that fame isn't what it looks like. And that from what I've seen, it's certainly a double-edged sword."

Ethical Filmmaking

Committed to authenticity, Cutler rejects commissioned projects that may compromise the integrity of his work. He values the independence to pursue truth without external pressures, ensuring that his documentaries remain unbiased and genuine.

[44:14] RJ Cutler: "I'm very blessed in that I have wise counsel from my partners."

Upcoming Projects and Future Plans

"Fight for Glory"

Cutler's latest project, Fight for Glory, is a three-part series chronicling the 2024 World Series. Despite his allegiance to the New York Mets, Cutler immerses himself in the rival Los Angeles Dodgers and New York Yankees to capture the essence of baseball's drama and the human stories within.

[37:00] RJ Cutler: "Baseball is a beautiful game that has so much to teach us about life and about overcoming adversity."

Greenland Documentary

Cutler is also embarking on a documentary about the United States' secretive military base in Greenland, exploring themes of environmental impact and geopolitical strategy amidst climate change.

[51:07] RJ Cutler: "The United States has had designs on Greenland for decades. In fact, for more than 150 years. And that's what this movie that we're making is about."

Closing Thoughts

Stephen Dubner and RJ Cutler conclude their conversation by reflecting on the art of documentary filmmaking as a medium for uncovering the "hidden side of everything." Cutler's dedication to truthful storytelling and his nuanced understanding of his subjects underscore the enduring relevance and power of documentaries in contemporary culture.

[56:43] RJ Cutler: "If you're watching one news service, you should know the difference between it and another news service. I think if you're watching a documentary, you should know the source of that."

Notable Quotes

• RJ Cutler on Documentary Evolution:
  "Documentaries are fully cinema, fully narrative, fully character-driven, and as I like to say, just like a real film."
  [06:35]

• RJ Cutler on Editing Enjoyment:
  "Of course, of course it's fantastic. If it's not enjoyable, maybe consider a different line of work, I would say."
  [22:14]

• RJ Cutler on Fame:
  "I try to impress upon my kids that fame isn't what it looks like. And that from what I've seen, it's certainly a double-edged sword."
  [40:13]

Conclusion

Episode 632 of Freakonomics Radio offers a comprehensive exploration of the documentary film landscape through the lens of RJ Cutler's experiences and insights. Listeners gain a deeper understanding of the complexities involved in creating authentic documentaries, the importance of ethical filmmaking, and the factors driving the genre's increasing popularity in the streaming age.

For those intrigued by the intersection of economics, behavior, and storytelling, this episode provides a rich and engaging narrative that underscores the transformative power of documentaries in shaping public perception and cultural discourse.

Produced by:
Zach Lipinski, Morgan Levy
Mixed by: Jasmine Klinger, Jeremy Johnston
Research and Contributions: Alina Coleman, Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abuaji, Elinor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Sarah Lilly, Teo Jacobs
Theme Song: "Mr. Fortune" by The Hitchhikers
Composer: Luis Guerra