Freakonomics Radio Episode 635: Can a Museum Be the Conscience of a Nation?

Released on June 6, 2025

In Episode 635 of Freakonomics Radio, host Stephen Dubner engages in an in-depth conversation with Nicholas Cullinan, the newly appointed Director of the British Museum. The discussion delves into the multifaceted role of the British Museum in contemporary society, addressing historical legacies, repatriation of artifacts, institutional challenges, and future aspirations.

Introducing Nicholas Cullinan

[01:22] Nicholas Cullinan: "Hans Sloane, our founder, of course, who offered an extraordinary collection of 80,000 objects to the nation, did it in a very deliberate way."

Stephen Dubner sets the stage by introducing Nicholas Cullinan, who took the helm of the British Museum in 2024. Cullinan provides historical context about the museum's foundation, emphasizing Hans Sloane's vision of creating a "museum of the world, for the world," aiming to benefit all individuals globally.

Defining Britishness and the Museum's Identity

[02:24] Stephen Dubner: "Can you define Britishness?"

Cullinan responds by focusing on cultural nuances, humorously highlighting the British penchant for saying "sorry" in various situations. He contextualizes the museum's purpose by distinguishing between "window" and "mirror" museums, with the British Museum serving as a window into diverse cultures and epochs.

Historical Accountability and Repatriation Issues

[02:43 - 04:35] Dubner discusses Britain's historical apologies for imperialism, the slave trade, and environmental impacts, contrasting this with the British Museum's limited public apologies regarding its extensive collection amassed during colonial times. Cullinan acknowledges the complex legacy of Britain’s history intertwined with the museum's collection.

Challenges and Controversies at the British Museum

[04:35 - 07:01] The conversation shifts to recent scandals, including art theft by a senior curator, leading to the resignation of the former director, Hartwig Fisher. Cullinan introduces himself as a director with a fresh perspective aiming to address longstanding issues within the institution.

[07:19] Cullinan: "We could show this collection in a much more compelling way. We could refresh the interpretation, we could reach new audiences."

Cullinan emphasizes his dedication to modernizing the museum's approach to exhibitions and audience engagement.

Cullinan’s Background and Career Path

[05:59 - 08:48] Dubner explores Cullinan's personal background, highlighting his working-class roots and the challenges he overcame to ascend to a leadership position in one of the world’s foremost museums. Cullinan shares anecdotes from his childhood and academic journey, underscoring his work ethic and commitment to the museum sector.

Comparing British and American Museums

[08:18 - 12:19] Cullinan contrasts the operational structures of British and American museums. He points out that British national museums rely more on public funding and government support, which has become increasingly constrained. In contrast, American museums benefit from private donors on their boards, providing more substantial financial resources and flexibility.

[09:55] Cullinan: "British museums are looking more to the American model. One of the big lessons I've learned from working in American museums... is not being afraid to ask for money, not being afraid to be enthusiastic."

Repatriation of Artifacts: Ethical and Legal Challenges

[27:16 - 37:21] A significant portion of the episode addresses the contentious issue of repatriation of artifacts. Cullinan discusses the British Museum's stance on objects like the Parthenon sculptures (Elgin Marbles) and the Benin Bronzes, highlighting legal barriers such as the 1963 Act of Parliament that prohibits deaccessioning. He advocates for collaborative approaches rather than unilateral repatriation, emphasizing reciprocal partnerships with institutions in countries of origin.

[28:10] Cullinan: "I'm not really a big fan of binary thinking... it's about finding ways to collaborate and to pioneer, I suppose, and to invent new things."

Renovation Plans and Future Vision

[14:11 - 20:43] Cullinan outlines the ambitious renovation plans for the British Museum's Western Range, including the Egyptian Galleries and other significant sections. He discusses the selection of Lina Gatma, a young Lebanese architect, to lead the architectural transformation. The renovation aims to enhance visitor experience, modernize displays, and better present the museum's vast collections.

[16:40] Cullinan: "The scale of work that's required here is 35% of the galleries of the British Museum. It's significant. It's hundreds of millions."

The Role of Museums in Society

[46:08 - 48:46] Dubner and Cullinan explore the broader societal impact of museums. Cullinan argues that museums serve as crucial platforms for knowledge transfer, cultural exchange, and fostering global understanding. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining and expanding the museum's role in connecting diverse cultures and histories.

[47:32] Cullinan: "It's about bringing people and cultures together. Personally, I think we need more of that, not less of that."

Engaging the Public and Future Initiatives

[51:38 - 53:20] The conversation highlights the British Museum's efforts to involve the public in archaeological discoveries through initiatives like the Portable Antiquities Scheme. Cullinan expresses enthusiasm for collaborative projects and public appeals to acquire significant finds, reinforcing the museum's commitment to accessibility and community engagement.

[52:51] Cullinan: "There's a heart shaped gold pendant... we're going to launch a public appeal to acquire this object because it is amazing."

Addressing Criticisms and Moving Forward

[44:16 - 48:20] Dubner raises concerns about the museum being perceived as a "trophy case" of Britain’s colonial past and questions the efficacy of repatriation efforts. Cullinan responds by acknowledging these criticisms while advocating for a balanced approach that honors both the legacy and the museum's educational mission.

[46:13] Cullinan: "The question for me is, is the British Museum an institution that is worth sticking with? ... It does a lot more good than harm."

Conclusion: A Vision for an Inclusive Future

Cullinan concludes by reaffirming his dedication to making the British Museum a more inclusive, transparent, and dynamic institution. He envisions a museum that not only preserves artifacts but also actively engages with global communities to foster mutual understanding and shared cultural heritage.

[48:46] Cullinan: "If you're really confident you can own up to mistakes or misdeeds... I think cultures and countries that are truly confident are confident because they know themselves in all of their glory and with all of their flaws."

Key Takeaways:

• Historical Legacy: The British Museum's vast collection reflects Britain's complex history, including its imperial past.

• Repatriation Challenges: Legal barriers and institutional policies complicate the return of looted artifacts.

• Modernization Efforts: Cullinan aims to renovate and modernize the museum to enhance visitor experience and operational efficiency.

• Cultural Responsibility: Museums play a pivotal role in cultural education, preservation, and international dialogue.

• Collaborative Approaches: Cullinan advocates for partnerships and reciprocal agreements to address repatriation ethically and effectively.

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the British Museum's current state and future direction, highlighting the intricate balance between preserving history and addressing its contentious aspects.