Freakonomics Radio: Episode 641 - What Does It Cost to Lead a Creative Life?

Release Date: July 18, 2025

In Episode 641 of Freakonomics Radio, host Stephen Dubner delves deep into the intricate and often tumultuous journey of playwright David Ajmee. Titled "What Does It Cost to Lead a Creative Life?", this episode unpacks the personal and professional sacrifices, collaborations, and challenges that accompany a life dedicated to the arts. Through an engaging conversation, listeners gain insight into Ajmee's acclaimed play Stereophonic, his financial struggles, the nuances of creative collaboration, and his contemplations on the future of theater.

1. Introduction to David Ajmee and Stereophonic [01:18 - 03:14]

Stephen Dubner introduces David Ajmee, highlighting his long-standing career as a playwright primarily in regional and experimental theaters. Ajmee's breakout work, Stereophonic, marks his entry into the limelight, making significant strides on Broadway after a successful Off-Broadway run.

Notable Quote:

• David Ajmee: "Stereophonic is a play about a dysfunctional family and art making and about the struggle to become an artist." [01:55]

2. The Creation Process of Stereophonic [03:13 - 14:49]

Ajmee reflects on the decade-long gestation of Stereophonic, a play set in a 1970s California recording studio, mirroring the dynamics of a struggling five-piece band reminiscent of Fleetwood Mac. The play's minimalist plot is a vessel for deep emotional and psychological exploration, enhanced by music composed by Arcade Fire's Will Butler.

Notable Quotes:

• Stephen Dubner: "It's some of the most psychologically astute writing you'll ever hear on a stage." [02:44]
• Will Butler: "That's it." [02:34] (Highlighting the play’s focus)

3. Personal Struggles and Financial Challenges [05:27 - 08:09]

Ajmee shares candidly about the financial hardships faced during his playwriting journey. From living in unconventional spaces like attics and basements to accruing significant debt, Ajmee's dedication to authentic and exploratory writing often came at personal and financial costs.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "I sort of made some decisions and choices that compromised me in terms of the kind of life I would have." [05:29]
• David Ajmee: "I couldn't pay my taxes... I was willing to do that because I knew that my purpose here is really to do a certain kind of writing." [06:09]

4. Collaborations and Team Dynamics [10:07 - 19:21]

A pivotal aspect of Stereophonic's success is Ajmee's collaboration with director Daniel Alkin and musician Will Butler. Their "spiritual contract" emphasized unconditional trust and mutual respect, fostering a collaborative environment that was both challenging and rewarding.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "We just sort of decided that we would have unconditional faith in each other." [10:09]
• David Ajmee: "It's the kind of torture that gets crystallized in the play itself." [08:09]
• Will Butler: "I loved it." [03:13]

5. Success and Closure of Broadway Run [22:12 - 24:54]

Despite Stereophonic becoming a Broadway sensation, garnering multiple Tony Awards and selling out performances, it closed after nine months. Ajmee explains that external factors, particularly the Shubert Organization's decision to prioritize another show in their owned theater, necessitated the closure despite the play's profitability.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "We were kicked out of the house... let's just end on a high." [23:14]
• David Ajmee: "We had just recouped like a couple of weeks before we closed." [23:43]
• David Ajmee: "It's the unions... they're very hardcore in America." [24:59]

6. Moving to London and Future Projects [25:51 - 42:34]

Facing the bleak prospects of American theater, exacerbated by high costs and stringent union demands, Ajmee contemplates relocating to London. He discusses the cultural differences between Broadway and the West End, noting London's more sustainable and valued theater culture. Additionally, Ajmee touches upon his plans to adapt Stereophonic into a film and hints at upcoming plays.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "I'm feeling very, very lost." [25:33]
• David Ajmee: "I'm writing the film... I really want it to have the integrity that the play had." [42:00]
• David Ajmee: "I'm a compulsive and Peter is compulsive." [19:07]

7. The State of Theater [28:03 - 32:50]

Ajmee critiques the American theater industry's economic model, highlighting the exorbitant costs and union demands that hinder artistic innovation. In contrast, he praises the UK's theater culture for its accessibility and state support, emphasizing the democratic nature of theater-going in England.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "It's so expensive to put on shows... They're very hardcore in America." [24:54]
• David Ajmee: "There's a theater culture here that does not exist in America in general." [29:18]
• David Ajmee: "Theater and democracy, they go together." [31:18]

8. Filmmaking Adaptations and Artistic Integrity [40:10 - 43:41]

Transitioning Stereophonic to film presents unique challenges for Ajmee. He emphasizes maintaining the play's integrity while adapting its essence to a different medium. Ajmee is meticulous about preserving the narrative's depth, steering clear of superficial changes that might dilute the story's impact.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "I have to redo the whole thing in my mind." [42:19]
• David Ajmee: "This play is its own thing. And there's things that I'm gonna keep because they're gonna work in the movie." [42:38]

9. Personal Insights and Conclusion [43:41 - 49:52]

Ajmee reflects on his personal growth through the creative process, acknowledging his obsessive and compulsive traits while aspiring to emulate figures like Dolly Parton in balancing authenticity with professionalism. He underscores the importance of sustained attention and devotion to art, lamenting the declining attention spans in contemporary society.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "I have so much to prove and I have so much to myself and to the world." [48:34]
• David Ajmee: "Edward Albee once said to me, 'That's a good sentence.'" [45:58]
• David Ajmee: "I'm going to do this. The end." [49:27]

Key Takeaways

• Creative Sacrifices: Ajmee's commitment to authentic and exploratory playwriting involved significant personal and financial sacrifices, highlighting the often unseen costs of a creative life.

• Collaborative Dynamics: Successful artistic endeavors like Stereophonic rely heavily on trust, mutual respect, and understanding within creative teams.

• Economic Realities of Theater: The episode sheds light on the financial intricacies of Broadway productions, emphasizing how high costs and stringent union requirements can stifle creative expression.

• Cultural Differences in Theater: Contrasting American and British theater cultures reveals the impact of state support and cultural valuation on artistic sustainability.

• Adaptation Challenges: Transitioning from stage to film requires nuanced understanding to preserve a work's integrity while adapting its form.

• Personal Growth and Authenticity: Ajmee's journey underscores the importance of self-awareness, authenticity, and the balance between personal traits and professional demands in the creative process.

Conclusion

Episode 641 of Freakonomics Radio offers a profound exploration of the complexities inherent in leading a creative life. Through David Ajmee's experiences, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the dedication, challenges, and intimate human elements that fuel artistic success. The conversation not only celebrates Ajmee's achievements with Stereophonic but also serves as a poignant commentary on the broader landscape of theater and the enduring spirit of creativity.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• David Ajmee: "I sort of made some decisions and choices that compromised me in terms of the kind of life I would have." [05:29]
• David Ajmee: "I couldn't pay my taxes... I was willing to do that because I knew that my purpose here is really to do a certain kind of writing." [06:09]
• Stephen Dubner: "It's some of the most psychologically astute writing you'll ever hear on a stage." [02:44]
• David Ajmee: "We were kicked out of the house... let's just end on a high." [23:14]
• David Ajmee: "It's the unions... they're very hardcore in America." [24:59]
• David Ajmee: "I'm a compulsive and Peter is compulsive." [19:07]
• David Ajmee: "Edward Albee once said to me, 'That's a good sentence.'" [45:58]
• David Ajmee: "I'm going to do this. The end." [49:27]