641. What Does It Cost to Lead a Creative Life?

Summary

Freakonomics Radio: Episode 641 - What Does It Cost to Lead a Creative Life?

Release Date: July 18, 2025

In Episode 641 of Freakonomics Radio, host Stephen Dubner delves deep into the intricate and often tumultuous journey of playwright David Ajmee. Titled "What Does It Cost to Lead a Creative Life?", this episode unpacks the personal and professional sacrifices, collaborations, and challenges that accompany a life dedicated to the arts. Through an engaging conversation, listeners gain insight into Ajmee's acclaimed play Stereophonic, his financial struggles, the nuances of creative collaboration, and his contemplations on the future of theater.

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1. Introduction to David Ajmee and Stereophonic [01:18 - 03:14]

Stephen Dubner introduces David Ajmee, highlighting his long-standing career as a playwright primarily in regional and experimental theaters. Ajmee's breakout work, Stereophonic, marks his entry into the limelight, making significant strides on Broadway after a successful Off-Broadway run.

Notable Quote:

• David Ajmee: "Stereophonic is a play about a dysfunctional family and art making and about the struggle to become an artist." [01:55]

2. The Creation Process of Stereophonic [03:13 - 14:49]

Ajmee reflects on the decade-long gestation of Stereophonic, a play set in a 1970s California recording studio, mirroring the dynamics of a struggling five-piece band reminiscent of Fleetwood Mac. The play's minimalist plot is a vessel for deep emotional and psychological exploration, enhanced by music composed by Arcade Fire's Will Butler.

Notable Quotes:

• Stephen Dubner: "It's some of the most psychologically astute writing you'll ever hear on a stage." [02:44]
• Will Butler: "That's it." [02:34] (Highlighting the play’s focus)

3. Personal Struggles and Financial Challenges [05:27 - 08:09]

Ajmee shares candidly about the financial hardships faced during his playwriting journey. From living in unconventional spaces like attics and basements to accruing significant debt, Ajmee's dedication to authentic and exploratory writing often came at personal and financial costs.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "I sort of made some decisions and choices that compromised me in terms of the kind of life I would have." [05:29]
• David Ajmee: "I couldn't pay my taxes... I was willing to do that because I knew that my purpose here is really to do a certain kind of writing." [06:09]

4. Collaborations and Team Dynamics [10:07 - 19:21]

A pivotal aspect of Stereophonic's success is Ajmee's collaboration with director Daniel Alkin and musician Will Butler. Their "spiritual contract" emphasized unconditional trust and mutual respect, fostering a collaborative environment that was both challenging and rewarding.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "We just sort of decided that we would have unconditional faith in each other." [10:09]
• David Ajmee: "It's the kind of torture that gets crystallized in the play itself." [08:09]
• Will Butler: "I loved it." [03:13]

5. Success and Closure of Broadway Run [22:12 - 24:54]

Despite Stereophonic becoming a Broadway sensation, garnering multiple Tony Awards and selling out performances, it closed after nine months. Ajmee explains that external factors, particularly the Shubert Organization's decision to prioritize another show in their owned theater, necessitated the closure despite the play's profitability.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "We were kicked out of the house... let's just end on a high." [23:14]
• David Ajmee: "We had just recouped like a couple of weeks before we closed." [23:43]
• David Ajmee: "It's the unions... they're very hardcore in America." [24:59]

6. Moving to London and Future Projects [25:51 - 42:34]

Facing the bleak prospects of American theater, exacerbated by high costs and stringent union demands, Ajmee contemplates relocating to London. He discusses the cultural differences between Broadway and the West End, noting London's more sustainable and valued theater culture. Additionally, Ajmee touches upon his plans to adapt Stereophonic into a film and hints at upcoming plays.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "I'm feeling very, very lost." [25:33]
• David Ajmee: "I'm writing the film... I really want it to have the integrity that the play had." [42:00]
• David Ajmee: "I'm a compulsive and Peter is compulsive." [19:07]

7. The State of Theater [28:03 - 32:50]

Ajmee critiques the American theater industry's economic model, highlighting the exorbitant costs and union demands that hinder artistic innovation. In contrast, he praises the UK's theater culture for its accessibility and state support, emphasizing the democratic nature of theater-going in England.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "It's so expensive to put on shows... They're very hardcore in America." [24:54]
• David Ajmee: "There's a theater culture here that does not exist in America in general." [29:18]
• David Ajmee: "Theater and democracy, they go together." [31:18]

8. Filmmaking Adaptations and Artistic Integrity [40:10 - 43:41]

Transitioning Stereophonic to film presents unique challenges for Ajmee. He emphasizes maintaining the play's integrity while adapting its essence to a different medium. Ajmee is meticulous about preserving the narrative's depth, steering clear of superficial changes that might dilute the story's impact.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "I have to redo the whole thing in my mind." [42:19]
• David Ajmee: "This play is its own thing. And there's things that I'm gonna keep because they're gonna work in the movie." [42:38]

9. Personal Insights and Conclusion [43:41 - 49:52]

Ajmee reflects on his personal growth through the creative process, acknowledging his obsessive and compulsive traits while aspiring to emulate figures like Dolly Parton in balancing authenticity with professionalism. He underscores the importance of sustained attention and devotion to art, lamenting the declining attention spans in contemporary society.

Notable Quotes:

• David Ajmee: "I have so much to prove and I have so much to myself and to the world." [48:34]
• David Ajmee: "Edward Albee once said to me, 'That's a good sentence.'" [45:58]
• David Ajmee: "I'm going to do this. The end." [49:27]

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Key Takeaways

• Creative Sacrifices: Ajmee's commitment to authentic and exploratory playwriting involved significant personal and financial sacrifices, highlighting the often unseen costs of a creative life.

• Collaborative Dynamics: Successful artistic endeavors like Stereophonic rely heavily on trust, mutual respect, and understanding within creative teams.

• Economic Realities of Theater: The episode sheds light on the financial intricacies of Broadway productions, emphasizing how high costs and stringent union requirements can stifle creative expression.

• Cultural Differences in Theater: Contrasting American and British theater cultures reveals the impact of state support and cultural valuation on artistic sustainability.

• Adaptation Challenges: Transitioning from stage to film requires nuanced understanding to preserve a work's integrity while adapting its form.

• Personal Growth and Authenticity: Ajmee's journey underscores the importance of self-awareness, authenticity, and the balance between personal traits and professional demands in the creative process.

Conclusion

Episode 641 of Freakonomics Radio offers a profound exploration of the complexities inherent in leading a creative life. Through David Ajmee's experiences, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the dedication, challenges, and intimate human elements that fuel artistic success. The conversation not only celebrates Ajmee's achievements with Stereophonic but also serves as a poignant commentary on the broader landscape of theater and the enduring spirit of creativity.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• David Ajmee: "I sort of made some decisions and choices that compromised me in terms of the kind of life I would have." [05:29]
• David Ajmee: "I couldn't pay my taxes... I was willing to do that because I knew that my purpose here is really to do a certain kind of writing." [06:09]
• Stephen Dubner: "It's some of the most psychologically astute writing you'll ever hear on a stage." [02:44]
• David Ajmee: "We were kicked out of the house... let's just end on a high." [23:14]
• David Ajmee: "It's the unions... they're very hardcore in America." [24:59]
• David Ajmee: "I'm a compulsive and Peter is compulsive." [19:07]
• David Ajmee: "Edward Albee once said to me, 'That's a good sentence.'" [45:58]
• David Ajmee: "I'm going to do this. The end." [49:27]

Transcript

[Stephen Dubner]

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[David Ajmee]

It wasn't necessarily a fait accompli that I would have this kind of hit or anything like that. I was taken to task by the critics and I was considered really polarizing and difficult.

[Stephen Dubner]

Um, let's back up for a second. Please say your name and what you do.

[David Ajmee]

David Ajmee is my name and playwright is my game.

[Stephen Dubner]

Ajmee has been a playwright for a few decades now. His work was typically staged in regional or repertory or experimental theaters, but never under the much brighter lights of Broadway or the West End. That changed last year with a play he wrote called Stereophonic.

[David Ajmee]

Stereophonic is a play about a dysfunctional family and art making and about the struggle to become an artist.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's another way of saying that Stereophonic is a play about the mind of David Ajmee.

[David Ajmee]

I always work off of tropes in the culture, but then it's always really a way for me to talk about me.

[Stephen Dubner]

The plot of Stereophonic is so slender that it barely sounds like a plot. A five piece band is struggling to record their second album.

[Will Butler]

The band very much resembles Fleetwood Mac, at least superficially.

[Stephen Dubner]

There are two sound engineers also, and the entire play takes place in California recording studios in the late 1970s.

[Will Butler]

That's it.

[Stephen Dubner]

But that slender plot supports an entire universe of emotion. It's some of the most psychologically astute writing you'll ever hear on a stage.

[Will Butler]

And then there's the music.

[Stephen Dubner]

Stereophonic is not a musical. Not even close. But the music says a lot of things. The characters aren't able to. And the music was written by Will Butler, a longtime member of the band Arcade Fire. Last year, as we were trying to make a series about the strange economics of the live theater industry, Stereophonic had just moved to Broadway from a well received Off Broadway run at Playwrights Horizons. I saw the play a few times.

[Will Butler]

I loved it.

[Stephen Dubner]

We wound up making a pair of episodes about it. We interviewed producers, we cast members, and David Ajme. Stereophonic went on to be nominated for more Tonys than any play in history and it won five, including Best Play. And so when I was recently in London for some other tapings and I saw that Stereophonic was in rehearsals for its debut in the West End, I asked AJME if he would meet up in a recording studio and tell us everything he's been up to. As you'll hear, he is a fun person to have a conversation with. He is super smart, but also earnest. He's remarkably candid. He's rarely mean spirited, except toward himself sometimes. And he's consistently interesting, at least to me, I hope you will agree. Today on Freakonomics Radio. After a Stereophonic size success, what can David Ajme possibly do now?

[Unknown]

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Stephen Dubner.

[Stephen Dubner]

David Ajmi grew up in Brooklyn in.

[Will Butler]

A turbulent Syrian Jewish family.

[Stephen Dubner]

He describes the turbulence well in a memoir called Lot 6. We also learn that Ajmi started reading the New York Times when he was two. He saw his first Broadway musical at five. He went to college at Sarah Lawrence and then grad school for playwrighting at both Juilliard and the University of Iowa. And then came the hard work. The last time we spoke, which was just as Stereophonic was starting to explode, you said there have been times when you thought about just quitting playwriting, but you didn't. And now you've been writing plays for roughly 30 years. And when you look around, you realize that almost nobody really does that anymore.

[Will Butler]

Yeah, I think it's true.

[David Ajmee]

I sort of made some decisions and choices that compromised me in terms of the kind of life I would have. I was willing to do that because I knew that my. My purpose here is really to do a certain kind of writing and to be very, very truthful and exploratory in the kind of work I do. And if I can't have that freedom to explore and sort of mull over what I believe, the truth is for me in this kind of dramatic, dialectical context of a play, I don't wanna do it. And I don't know if I wanna do anything. You know what I mean? That kind of feels like that is my reason for being. So I made a lot of sacrifices to get to right these plays.

[Will Butler]

What do you mean by sacrifices?

[David Ajmee]

I would live in people's homes. I'd live in attics, I'd live in basements. I'd find patrons. Essentially, I went into an enormous amount of debt.

[Will Butler]

Credit card debt, Credit cards.

[David Ajmee]

And, you know, I couldn't pay my taxes. The problem is they tax grants, which prior to Reagan, they didn't do. So when artists got grants, if I got Guggenheim, let's say, which I was fortunate enough to get one, then I would use that money to try to pay some of my debt. The grants were a huge boon. And then suddenly it became the bane of my existence because I was like, oh, my God, I'm running from the. You also go into a little bit of denial, like, I've got all this money, hooray. And then you want to go out and celebrate, and it's like, oh, no. I've got this albatross of these taxes.

[Will Butler]

That makes me sad because I feel like someone should have said to you, hey, the first thing you need to do is take 30% of that and.

[Stephen Dubner]

Just set it aside.

[Will Butler]

But nobody said that to you.

[David Ajmee]

Nobody said it. But I also think maybe I wouldn't have listened because I wanted to experience the ecstasy of money.

[Will Butler]

Were you somewhat hedonistic?

[David Ajmee]

Yes.

[Will Butler]

On what?

[David Ajmee]

Well, I took myself out for nice dinners. Maybe I bought a little outfit here and there.

[Will Butler]

That doesn't sound hedonistic.

[David Ajmee]

For me it was. It's so funny because people thought I was so rich. I remember having dinner with a professor of mine from college, from my undergraduate, after my first play opened in New York. And she said, you must be doing so well now financially. And I said, they paid me $7,000.

[Will Butler]

What was she a professor of?

[David Ajmee]

She taught literary theory and literature.

[Will Butler]

I would have thought she would understand the economics of theater a little bit.

[David Ajmee]

She had not the vaguest idea. I saw her recently. We had dinner again a couple months ago. And she said, I remembered that day really vividly because it was such a shock to my system. People don't understand that playwrights make literally nothing and just how broken it is. And of course, now it's just we're going down even a darker black hole, which I didn't even think was possible.

[Will Butler]

But of course, it always is during.

[Stephen Dubner]

The 10 or 11 year gestation period of Stereophonic, which is the show that people now Know you for talk about how close you came or how many times you came close to quitting playwriting.

[David Ajmee]

What I realized making Seraphonic was that I couldn't give up. This is the kind of torture, I think, that gets crystallized in the play itself. Because I think people realize I love this too much. And the thing that I love is killing me, and I will never stop loving it. That's why the play rings, I think, with the intensity that it has. Because I was really living it for real. I made the play over 10 years. I thought it was never going to get done at some point. I mean, it's hilarious in a dark way, because it does mirror the trajectory of the play. Because the play is about this album that's never getting finished. And everyone's going insane and people are wondering, am I gonna make it alive out of this studio to see this record come out? And I was really feeling that.

[Will Butler]

And yet that was the thing that kept you in. It didn't make you run from it.

[David Ajmee]

It was a bit of a Beckett situation. You know, I think about the end of Strindberg's play. I think it's a dream play where the character says, you wan and you want to go. And wild horses are tearing you apart in both directions simultaneously. And I really felt those two opposite emotions with equal intensity. I learned how to be quite disciplined during that period and very, very rigorous and just put my emotions to the side as much as possible. But there were times when I really thought I was losing my mind. I had holes in my clothes and I couldn't afford anything. I mean, it got really, really bad for me. And my director, Daniel Alkin, was actually quite worried about me. Even to the point where, when we were in previews at Playwrights Horizons, I made sort of a dark joke. We were up in the roof. He was smoking a cigarette. And I sort of alluded to the fact that, well, if it doesn't go so great, maybe I'll just, you know. And I kind of nodded downward and he just burst into tears. Cause I think he was so worried about me.

[Will Butler]

The relationship you two have, along with Will Butler is, I think, quite remarkable. Because you were collaborators for years and years and years before there was a play. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you were a team. You formed a band. Essentially.

[David Ajmee]

We just sort of decided that we would have unconditional faith in each other. It was some sort of spiritual contract that we made. I don't know how we made it or why we did it, but we intuitively just knew that we could trust Each other and that we were going to be really decent with each other. And that I was going to learn how to be civilized, which I maybe wasn't prior to this process, because I am quite controlling and I am very demanding. Daniel sat me down prior to the process. Process and said, listen, you have a reputation of being very demanding. This is how I need to work. Can you work this way? And I said, yeah.

[Will Butler]

Just to be clear, you drafted these guys into your band several years before anyone would have ever heard of Stereophonic. And they worked for. Essentially Free for years.

[David Ajmee]

For 10 years.

[Will Butler]

So this is Will Butler, who was at the point, still in Arcade Fire.

[David Ajmee]

He was in Arcade fire. This was 2013. He's so smart. He's so dramaturgical, Will. He has the mind for theater. And that was something I did not know. It's an accident.

[Will Butler]

You went to him because you were able to find a connection. Yes. Or you reached out and he said.

[David Ajmee]

Yes, I reached out to Arcade Fire, period. I was like, I want Arcade Fire to do it. I don't.

[Will Butler]

Just because you love them.

[David Ajmee]

I love Arcade Fire. And I just thought there was something about the anthemic quality of some of the songs, especially in their first album. I was like, there's something about the intensity of this and the sort of fever of some of these songs that I think will rhyme with what I want for this show. And I love them. And then they were all busy. No, no, no, I can't do it. And Will was like, well, I'll meet with you. And I just thought, I like this guy. He's a bit like Peter Pan or something. I mean, he's kind of iconoclastic for a rock star. He's a sweet, sweet soul. He's goofy and he's silly and he's really fun and he's very, very brainy. When we were doing my show, he moved to Cambridge and got a degree in public policy from Harvard in the middle of recording for Arcade Fire. He's a unicorn in the world of rock music then.

[Stephen Dubner]

Daniel Aukin is a working director in New York. His father, I think, was head of the National Theater here in London for a time.

[David Ajmee]

Yeah, he was. Yeah.

[Will Butler]

So when you say, you know, we all made this contract where we agreed to be good to each other and to collaborate in a certain way, I could see why you would want to do that. Right. You're the writer and you need them, a director and a musician to write what is a very essential piece of this play. But what was in it for them?

[David Ajmee]

I have no Idea. I think Daniel, you know, we went to Sundance together. They have this theater lab. And I developed my first real play there called the Evildoers. Daniel saw the reading, which was quite extraordinary. Michael Stuhlbarg was in it, and it was great. He got really jazzed about it and thought, I wanna work with this guy. So we had been talking about doing something together. And I remember thinking, this is the play for Daniel. Like, I saw it in my mind's eye. And then I just went, that's for Daniel.

[Will Butler]

What did your script look like over the years?

[Stephen Dubner]

And how much archival stuff is there?

[Will Butler]

Are there car full of paper versions? Was it all on a computer?

[David Ajmee]

I'm really bad at archiving my stuff. Cause I'm so disorganized. What I was doing in the beginning was just taking notes of every single thing that I could learn about a recording process in the 70s, jargon, equipment, what they would say to each other, what their problems would be. Then I would riff on it and make dialogue. It was a very scattershot process. My assistant now is saying, like, what's your process? Explain to me so I can help you. And I'm like, I can't explain it because I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just following my intuitions.

[Will Butler]

Did all the characters already when all this was going on?

[David Ajmee]

No, no, no. They didn't exist. I didn't have an engineer for the first part because I didn't. I was just like, oh, it's a band. They go into the studio. I didn't know anything. And then I said, okay, I'll have an engineer. And then I showed it to John Kilgore, who is this very famous engineer producer who works with Philip Glass and Steve Reich and all these people. And John was amazing. And we said, could you be our advisor? He read through what I had, and he said, why is there only one engineer? He needs an assistant. And so that opened up the dramaturgical thing of, like, oh, there's two guys. And now it becomes like, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. So then that became the next draft. I developed it in workshops. So I do it like 10 or 15 pages at a time. 20 pages here and there.

[Will Butler]

I think for people who aren't accustomed to making things, especially over a really long period of time, they show up, they buy a ticket, they see it. And in the case of your play, it's a long play. So maybe you feel like you're getting your money's worth. It's three hours long. But I think it's not natural to think about the ingredients or the process. You know, if you and I were to go to have a really nice dinner somewhere, we don't stop to think about all the growing and planting, harvesting, preparing, education that goes into that one meal.

[Stephen Dubner]

But it's years and years and years and years.

[Will Butler]

And similarly, what you're describing now is years and years of minute work that's gone into this thing that people will show up and buy a ticket and love it or not love it, whatever.

[Stephen Dubner]

And then it's over.

[Will Butler]

Does that get to you, that people don't generally think about or understand what it takes to make something like this?

[David Ajmee]

Well, that's why I wrote the play. I heard an interview. I think it was about Barbra Streisand. Barbra Streisand was in the studio and they were playing these violins. And she said, one of these, it's flat. And they were like, what are you talking about? There were like 12 violins. And she goes, which one? Play it. You. That's the kind of expertise that when you hear the anecdote, you're like, oh, my God. Barbra Streisand doesn't brag about this. Hey, do you know what I do? I have to listen to all these flat instruments. She's just focused on the work at hand. I find there's such nobility in that, for me, that artists often don't have to display their expertise. They just do their work. I find that very beautiful.

[Will Butler]

There are romantic relationships among the characters in your play that ebb and flow, but even among those for whom there's no romantic relationship, being in a band.

[Stephen Dubner]

Is a little bit like being married.

[Will Butler]

To several people simultaneously. Right.

[David Ajmee]

I like the idea that you're getting to there's something in there, but I don't understand it.

[Stephen Dubner]

The reason I'm asking is that I was in a band and I quit.

[Will Butler]

As we were kind of at the brink.

[Stephen Dubner]

We had gotten a record deal. We were in pre production on our first record, and I decided this was not the life that I wanted.

[Will Butler]

We were on Arista Records. It was the whole thing. And I'd been working toward it for Clive Davis. Yeah. Clive came to CBGB's to see us play. And then he led us out to his stretch limousine. It was very cold. He put his silk scarf around my neck.

[David Ajmee]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Will Butler]

And we went up to his office the next day, and he had Aretha Franklin get on the phone with us.

[David Ajmee]

To tell us how great Aerith is. What?

[Will Butler]

It was bomb. Stephen but anyway, once we got into the making of the record. And once I had exposure to people who were successful. I realized it was not the healthy lifestyle for me. Cause it's too much fun. But the band. I deeply loved every individual in that band. It's just a very hard relationship, which is one of many reasons I love. I think it's a dynamic that your play helps people understand about themselves.

[David Ajmee]

Maybe the thing that I started out with when I was writing the play was collaboration and working together. And being together and functioning as a collective. And also as individuals inside of a collective. Like that tension. How do you do it? How do you partner? Where are the nightmares? Because I do have trouble with that. I'm much better one on one than I am working inside of a group. However, ironically, with this play, with this group, I can't tell you how harmonious it is. It's very beautiful and very magical. And we do fight. And sometimes I want to fight more. Probably should be fighting more. But I just love them so much. I don't want to fight with them. I don't like conflict. I want to be loved and just everything to be nice with everybody. But I sometimes push things into conflict because of that.

[Will Butler]

But not gratuitously.

[David Ajmee]

I don't think it's ever gratuitous. Cause I love harmony. And I don't like to fight with people. But then I will sometimes push things.

[Will Butler]

One particularly compelling element of this play to me, and I think to many people, is Peter. He ends up being the leader of the band by merit. But it wasn't a vote. It just happened because he was the most, let's say, driven and talented. I'm just curious if that dynamic, that reality of, you know, a leader emerging. And everyone is kind of bitchy about his being the leader in the way that he is the leader. Because he is very exacting. But they also benefit hugely by his being that kind of leader. And so he's in this kind of difficult situation where he too wants to be loved. Like you just said, he wanted to be invited over for that chicken dinner. Does that have a connection to you or anyone in your life?

[David Ajmee]

I think that's like the obverse. That's like the Dark Night version of me. That's where it could have gone. But I think Peter couldn't have survived in doing theater. Because theater, you can't control it every night. And you can't record it and get all the levels exactly right. Which is sort of what I want to do.

[Will Butler]

Is that why you don't go to the performances, then that's part of it.

[David Ajmee]

Cause I am compulsive. I literally sometimes spasm when the actors don't do something the way I want them to.

[Will Butler]

So if you're sitting in the audience, you might shout, what are you doing?

[David Ajmee]

It's kind of what I'm doing the whole time in my head. And I think I would just my energy.

[Will Butler]

I don't mean to laugh.

[David Ajmee]

No, but it is. Or comedy. I am compulsive and Peter is compulsive. I am an obsessive person and I hear things at a frequency. Daniel keeps saying. My director, he just goes, you hear things at a frequency that normal people can't. And I'm like going, well, that doesn't help. He thinks that, oh, it's not a big deal that we don't do that because you hear it and it's so specific. But no one else will know. All I can do is tell you what I need to hear. But I have a really good bedside manner. I can be charming. I've cultivated this New York Jewish Persona that I work the room with. It's not just a Persona. I actually do have sort of sense of comedy about myself and my own obsessiveness and my neuroses. And I have a light touch and a kind of weird, hovering overview of the absurdity of everything that we're doing all the time. So that I don't get so, you know, annoying about things. I try anyway. I mean, I did, like, say to Will, this song needs a bridge and this song needs that, and I want it more intense and blah, blah, blah. And he'd be trying, and at some point, Will would just be like, God damn it. Da, da, da, da. And he'd just start screaming at me. And I was like, will, what can I do? Calm down. It's going to be good. What can I do?

[Stephen Dubner]

Stereophonic was good. It won all those Tony Awards and it sold out night after night in New York. So why did it close after just nine months? That's coming up after the break. I'm Stephen Dubner and this is Freakonomics Radio. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile. You know, it doesn't belong in your epic summer plans. Getting burned by your old wireless bill. Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks. A month. Month this year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a [e-mail] freak that's mintmobile.com freak upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 per month. Limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes. Bites on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Wells Fargo. This is an ad for the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs in a lot. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it. So whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it.

[Will Butler]

Let's say it together.

[Stephen Dubner]

The Active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells Fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply.

[David Ajmee]

If.

[Unknown]

You could hear love, what would it sound like? Son, can we talk about your drinking?

[Will Butler]

Yeah, Dad, I think we should.

[Unknown]

Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking. Maybe that's what love sounds like. [e-mail] An OHA Initiative.

[Stephen Dubner]

Stereophonic opened on Broadway in April 2024, and it was a runaway hit. Some hits play on for years, but stereophonic closed in January 2025 after just nine months. I asked David Ajmee why?

[David Ajmee]

Well, we were kicked out of the house. It's not up to me or the producers. We were trying to fight for more time, but the Shubert people wanted to put in another show.

[Stephen Dubner]

The Shubert Organization is the biggest landlord on Broadway. They own 17 of the 41 theaters.

[David Ajmee]

They made a promise to another show and we had maybe the opportunity to move to another theater, but then that's a whole other expense. We just decided, let's just end on a high. The good thing about closing when we did was like, we had sold out houses through the entire run.

[Will Butler]

But I can imagine that the producers must be saying, there's so much money we're leaving on the table.

[David Ajmee]

Yeah, I mean, we had just recouped like a couple of weeks before we closed. And I think that it would have been nice for the investors and everyone to make a little bit of money from it.

[Will Butler]

Can you explain that to someone who doesn't know the economics of Broadway? How can one of the biggest hits in a long time only recoup after eight or nine months and not make money?

[David Ajmee]

Well, because there are running costs every week they're paying the actors, they're paying the stagehands.

[Will Butler]

Yeah, but it's a relatively cheap cast, and you were able to charge quite a bit for tickets as it became a hit.

[David Ajmee]

We were. And yet we had to pay back the investors. It was something like a three or four million dollars production. So we had to pay all that back and also pay for the running costs every week. I don't understand exactly, like, the compass of how that all works. Cause I kept saying, when are we gonna recoup? I can't wait. And my agents were like, well, it's happening soon. We don't know. But also, they put in money for advertising, and then they put in money for this and then these campaigns, and. I don't know. It just all costs money somehow.

[Stephen Dubner]

Much more money in New York than here in London, though, right? Every producer talks about the huge spike in costs in New York. Everything from building sets to advertising to union labor.

[David Ajmee]

It's the unions, really, in America. They're very hardcore in America, and maybe not so much here.

[Will Butler]

They're definitely not. I'm guessing you're the kind of person who politically aligns with union.

[David Ajmee]

I do. I do. But I do think it might end up being the death of the American theater. It's so intense, the demands of the unions, and it's so expensive to put on shows. So then, you know, they put on these shows with movie stars, and then they charge $500, $800 for a seat. That's not going to help us build a theater culture in the United States. And it's heartbreaking for me.

[Will Butler]

Do you see a way around that? A way forward?

[David Ajmee]

Right now I'm feeling very, very lost.

[Will Butler]

And you haven't even spoken about the regional theaters. They're in even worse shape, I think.

[David Ajmee]

They're in worse shape. I think Covid really struck a blow to so many regional and so many nonprofit theaters in America. And then now what's happening with the new priorities of this particular administration? New plays isn't really something they care about.

[Stephen Dubner]

Is that why you're planning to move to London?

[Will Butler]

I don't know if that's for public consumption yet.

[David Ajmee]

I haven't announced it, but I've told my friends they have a special visa. It's called a global talent visa out here. And if you are talented enough.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's a humble title.

[David Ajmee]

I don't know what to do.

[Will Butler]

I'm not blaming you.

[David Ajmee]

I know. But when I found out about it, I thought, well, I'm gonna avail myself of this if I'm globally Talented enough to qualify. I'm gonna do it.

[Will Butler]

Did you decide this before you were over here for Stereophonic?

[David Ajmee]

We were out here for auditions. And I kept telling my music director, I really think you should move out here. You would love it here. Look how great it is here. And then I realized I was kind of doing some Freudian thing where really I was saying it to myself. And then I went to a party and this woman who's American, she told me about this special visa that I could get. Cause I was thinking, well, maybe I could live out here. But I don't know if I could get a visa. And she said, no, no, I think you can get one.

[Will Butler]

Why do you want to move here?

[David Ajmee]

I'm a little bit disconcerted by some of the political goings on in the United States right now. But also, I just like it here. I think New York has become crazily expensive and such a luxury playground for the rich and tech people. You know, I grew up there. I've seen the city change and change and change. I suddenly realized, like, maybe I feel a little alien here. I was looking for a new apartment. I was looking in Gowanus, which is not necessarily the most, you know, glamor. I mean, they're trying to build it up and turn it into Tribeca.

[Will Butler]

For those who don't know, just describe Gowanus. Most famous for its toxic canal.

[David Ajmee]

Well, they have the toxic canal. And so you'll probably get cancer and everything. But it can be nice. I remember growing up, there's Park Slope, and then there's Gowanus in between. And then there's Carroll Gardens. If there was a party at Park Slope, but then we wanted to go to Carroll Gardens, we'd just run through Gowanus. Cause we were so petrified. Cause there was just nothing there except for this toxic canal and maybe muggers. But then they said, oh, like, let's build this up and turn it into a playground for the rich.

[Will Butler]

So that's where you're looking.

[David Ajmee]

I was looking and I thought, I'd like to have an office. I'll get a two bedroom. And they were so expensive. I was like, do I really want to spend this kind of money and live here? I don't know that I do. So when I came out to London, I just thought, actually, it's a little bit less expensive here and I kind of like it. And maybe I'm ready for something new. So.

[Will Butler]

So let's talk, if you don't mind, about the state of theater in general.

[Stephen Dubner]

Let's Say New York versus London?

[Will Butler]

No, you make a sad face. The FT ran a piece on. I don't know how much you might agree with it or disagree with it, but it said that the West End has maybe surprisingly, become a better place to do good theatrical work. It's definitely cheaper to produce here than it is on Broadway. And that Broadway has become, as we all know, the redoubt of celebrity casting and or sitcom ish shows, et cetera, et cetera. So in that way, Stereophonics stood out. Have you sensed any significant ways in which writing for the stage in England is significant than writing for the States? And is that part of why you.

[Stephen Dubner]

Want to be here?

[David Ajmee]

It's not actually a factor in my coming here, no. I did a show at the RSC about 20 years ago that was like one of my first ever productions at the Royal Shakespeare Company, at the Royal Shakespeare Company in Stratford. And it came to London as well. It was just like a one person show that the Royal Court commissioned when I was like a graduate student. And that was really fun. What I've noticed just in general is that it's a very humane place in a lot of ways. The funding is not what it was. Let's get that straight right now. In England, anywhere, the arts are underfunded. It's bad everywhere.

[Will Butler]

Although here there's much more from the state.

[David Ajmee]

Much, much more. And I'm sure that's going to be more pronounced once we lose, you know, our National Endowment of the Arts, which will probably happen very soon in America. So that's absolutely true. I think there's a theater culture here that does not exist in America in general. There's a certain kind of value placed on the arts in England. And that is the thing about this tradition, right? We're part of a history. This is part of how we do things. It's very codified and there's constricting elements of that and then there's very wonderful elements to it. So you really do feel that that theater going is part of our culture. And that's why like, you know, in the Royal Court they have seats in the bleachers for like 10 pence. So everyone can come because it's part of the democracy. That is part of democracy. That's how the Greeks thought of it as well.

[Will Butler]

I thought of you and this play the other day. We were up in Chester, England. It's an old Roman city. They've still got intact Roman walls and there's a thousand year old cathedral. And while we were there, we went to the Races. The oldest horse racing track in the world is there. It's almost 500 years old. It's fun. And it's also weirdly identical to what it must have been almost 500 years ago. You've got animals, you've got people on them. And other than, like the hats that the ladies wear that they call fascinators, them being made of things that I'm sure materials that didn't exist 500 years ago. Otherwise it's pretty much the same. I was thinking that that's a tradition that carries on. Maybe it's because it's a form of entertainment where you can also bet, but it's social, right? People get together in the sunshine. You drink. And I was thinking about, well, theater. The same time that Chester was happening. Shakespeare probably went to the Chester racecourse at some point. Right. And I'm just thinking about the trajectories of these two things in some ways are very similar. They're analog things that are events. But the theater, sadly to me, and I gather to you, has what would seem to be a different trajectory going forward. What do you think is lost for humankind?

[David Ajmee]

Oh, my God. Listen, I'm a playwright, so clearly I like it. I think there are a lot of bad plays. I think it's a very hard medium. I think some of the curators are a little bit boring. But I think in terms of people getting together in a shared space and having a collective experience, it can be breathtakingly beautiful and important. And, you know, again, I go back to the earliest democracies. I mean, it was a democratic requirement to go to the theater in ancient Greece. Not for women. Cause they weren't considered people or slaves. But still. Okay. There was this idea that theater and democracy, they go together.

[Will Butler]

And the theater was often about the ideas of the day. It wasn't pure entertainment. We should say, yes, yeah, there were.

[David Ajmee]

Ideas of the day. But then it was also, who knows, people were stabbing each other and killing their sheep and going crazy. I guess those. The idea is the day we're all going mad. But, you know, there was a kind of psychic penetration that those plays engaged. There was a shadow side of human behavior and what it meant to be part of a social contract. And also to be a leader of some kind or to be disenfranchised. Those are the plays that really move and interest me. Sometimes we go into phases of history where boulevard plays, I guess they're called, that are just lovely and entertaining and kind of throw away, but fine in the moment become more the order of the day. And then I think there are moments in history where the work can get more difficult.

[Stephen Dubner]

Speaking of work that can be difficult, the street that we're on today, Old.

[Will Butler]

Compton in Soho, Central London.

[Stephen Dubner]

Do you happen to know anything about.

[Will Butler]

Who lived on this street in the past?

[David Ajmee]

Gay people.

[Will Butler]

I'm guessing that.

[David Ajmee]

That's all I know. It's like a gay area.

[Will Butler]

Yeah, I'm guessing that's true.

[David Ajmee]

Who lived here?

[Will Butler]

Well, many people. But the most noteworthy one I looked up was Wagner. Ricard Wagner lived here?

[David Ajmee]

Oh, my God.

[Will Butler]

I asked my favorite AI search engine what Wagner and David Ajmey have in common.

[David Ajmee]

Oh, no, we're both control freaks.

[Will Butler]

Didn't give me that. It may not know you well enough yet. Says David Ajmee and Richard Wagner share several notable commonalities rooted in their contributions to the performing arts. You like it so far?

[David Ajmee]

This is crazy.

[Will Butler]

Particularly in how they both innovated within their respective mediums. Okay, so this is legit.

[Stephen Dubner]

Ready?

[Will Butler]

There are four pioneering theatrical storytelling. Richard Wagner as a composer and libretticist to revolutionize opera with this concept of. That word. I can never say. Gesamtkunstud.

[David Ajmee]

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

[Will Butler]

And David Ajmee as a contemporary playwright known for pushing the boundaries of dramatic form and content. I don't know what you call the face you just made. It's all right.

[David Ajmee]

It's like a Jewish face. It's like by Larry David.

[Will Butler]

Okay, if you say so. Number two, focus on music as central to their work. Work. Okay, not a bad point. I mean, he was a musician, but okay. Number three, exploration of artistic process and creative tension. Wagner's works often depict artists, gods and mortals struggling with creation, ambition, and interpersonal conflict. While ajmi's Stereophonic similarly dramatizes the intense, often fraught dynamics. And number four? Influence and controversy. Both have attracted controversy. Wagner for. For his personal views and the revolutionary nature of his art. Adj me for legal disputes over the sources and inspirations for plays, including Stereophonic and its alleged parallels to Fleetwood Mac's history. So that's what the AI machine has to say about Ewan Wagner. What do you think?

[David Ajmee]

No comment.

[Will Butler]

Can you give me some kind of response to this? The lawsuit that the AI brings up? This was a Fleetwood Mac adjacent lawsuit. There was a settlement. I understand. Say what you can.

[Stephen Dubner]

Or what?

[David Ajmee]

I can't say anything. You know, I'm not a lamp. We settled it. I'm so glad we settled it.

[Will Butler]

The play did not have to change as a result of the lawsuit, I assume or Am I wrong?

[David Ajmee]

No.

[Will Butler]

Was there serious concern at some point that you might have to either shut down the show or rewrite parts?

[David Ajmee]

Well, we couldn't do anything with the lawsuit hanging over us. We wouldn't have been able to go to London or do a tour or anything like that. It was too fraught.

[Will Butler]

I know the settlement amount is not made public, as it never is in these cases, but I would assume that might have been a contribution to why it took a little while to recoup. Yeah, a chunk must have gone there.

[David Ajmee]

I mean, I don't think I'm allowed to say, but no.

[Stephen Dubner]

The case had been brought by Ken Callet, a producer and engineer who worked on Fleetwood Mac's record Rumors and who wrote a memoir called Making Rumors. There are, as I mentioned earlier, a lot of Fleetwood Mac parallels in Stereophonic, from the makeup of the band itself itself to the way that the Peter character, like Lindsey Buckingham in real life, winds up taking over the project. There's also the fact that both Peter and Lindsay have a brother who's an Olympic swimmer. But now that the lawsuit has been cleared, Stereophonic is playing in London with sold out houses and rave reviews and there will be a US Tour later this year. I'm Stephen Dubner, this is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back.

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[Will Butler]

So what's different about the London production of Stereophonic from the New York production?

[David Ajmee]

The cast is. Three of them came from New York, and they all had the option to come, but the rest of them said, no, we don't want to come. Okay, so we recast.

[Will Butler]

But they all did have the option.

[David Ajmee]

They all had the option. Listen, it's a very, very draining play to do. They were just like, we've done it. We came out in January and we recast the four other roles. And it was very, very hard because it's not just about getting people who play instruments and who are good actors. They have to feel a certain way. I mean, I really cast for the quality. And then it's like, okay, how can you act and can you play instruments?

[Will Butler]

What do you mean? Cats for quality?

[David Ajmee]

First I wanted people who felt like artists and that they were a little bit weird. I didn't want people that felt like actors. A lot of actors are really good actors, but they feel like actors acting. I didn't want that for this show. And I really wanted to give the audience a very easy ramp into the kind of naturalism that we're asking in the play. And we found these actors. But there were like one or two, like, okay, you could play that role. You're the only one. You could do it in all of England, kind of. But that's what happened in America, too.

[Stephen Dubner]

Several cast members of Stereophonic in New York weren't really musicians. Tom Pasinka, who played the Peter character, had told me that before he started training for rehearsals, he only played what he called garbage guitar. But some of the London cast members are experienced musicians at Playwrights Horizons.

[David Ajmee]

It was like, you know, what's that movie where they were getting the ship up the hill?

[Will Butler]

Fitzcarralda.

[David Ajmee]

That's what that was. It was a little Bit like, oh, my God, this is gonna kill me. Whereas three days in, they were playing all the songs and it sounded great. They're musicians.

[Will Butler]

They can do this with zero disparagement toward American cast. Would it have been a different experience had you cast actors who were also musicians for the American version?

[David Ajmee]

I'm sure it would have been different. Would it have been better? Not necessarily. Because so much of the charm and the deliciousness of that experience was the meta story of, can we make ourselves a band? Can we do this? Can we play instruments? It was wild seeing them step up to that plate. For Will Brill to learn how to play bass. And for Tom to learn the riff for Masquerade, they were. They were so petrified. But inside of that fear was a kind of laser focus. Like a minute to win it. And it brought out something very primal and thrilling that made its way into the performance. So I actually think it helped us in a certain way.

[Will Butler]

I understand there's a new song for the London production.

[David Ajmee]

Yeah, it's not in the production. In the play, Diana speaks about this song, which is from the first album. And it's the song that starts creeping back up the charts. And then propels their album into success. So Will said, I'm gonna write that song. And then he said, I'm gonna give the cast something to do that's their own. To let the British cast shine for themselves. And they kill it.

[Will Butler]

I read that Brad Pitt's film production company has acquired rights to Stereophonic True.

[David Ajmee]

I don't know if they acquired the rights. They're just my producers for the film, which I'm writing right now.

[Will Butler]

Oh, so you're writing the film?

[David Ajmee]

I'm writing the film. I just decided not to sell it to a studio quite yet. Because I'd like to take my time and get it right and not have to take notes. Part of the problem is, like, okay, you like the play. Now what do you imagine the Hollywood version of it to be? I don't even know what it is yet. I have to redo the whole thing in my mind.

[Will Butler]

Is this gonna take another 10 years, roughly?

[David Ajmee]

I hope to God not. I mean, I am working on it right now, and I can't rush it. But I don't want to do a bad movie. I really want it to have the integrity that the play had. But it can't be a play.

[Will Butler]

Can you give a couple ideas just of how the film would be different from the play?

[David Ajmee]

I can't talk too much about the film. Cause I don't Want to jinx it? There are talky speeches that will never be in this film. I love them and they're central to the play and they can't have anything to do with it. There's a character who is alluded to, this receptionist who is an aspiring singer, model person who sort of works her way through the band, who becomes a character in the film. I love writing her. It's a big thing in the play, this demarcation between public and private. Those spaces are quite collapsed in the play. Everything becomes public. Cause they're just in the studio and there's no escape.

[Will Butler]

It's inspiring to me that you're so confident about this. Because it's a different kind of writing.

[David Ajmee]

It's totally different and you have to embrace it. But I don't have an ego about it all. So I think that's where playwrights get in trouble. Like, oh, my wonderful play. It's like, no, I've got to kill. It's like Oedipus. Kill the play, marry the movie. You know what I mean? That's how I'm approaching it. I can't deify this play. This play is its own thing. And there's things that I'm gonna keep because they're gonna work in the movie. But I have to figure out the proportions and stuff. It's just different.

[Will Butler]

What about other plays? What are you working on?

[David Ajmee]

I'm doing a play for the Public Theater that I can't really talk about. It's a two part play.

[Will Butler]

Is it contemporary?

[David Ajmee]

It is, but it also spans something like 50 years. It's very different from Stereophonic. It couldn't be more different. And I can't talk about it. I can't. I'm gonna get in trouble.

[Stephen Dubner]

Does it engage more with the outside world than Stereophonic does?

[Will Butler]

Whether that's political engagement or whatnot?

[David Ajmee]

Yeah, it does, but not because I felt an obligation to. I think that's where artists get into trouble when they're being pointed. Oh, let me write about the issue of the day because it's very. And I need to speak to it. I never do that. I don't like those kind of plays. And yet I've written one despite the fact that I dislike it. It came from a place of obsession and not understanding what I was examining. That's when I trust myself, when I'm coming from a place of rational inquiry. That's when I know I'm on the wrong track.

[Will Butler]

I've heard you talk about this notion of an event, a thing that happens in A given place and time, and that there's less and less appreciation of that. And I will say, as a human, that worries me a little bit because we've lived the entirety of our civilization with that notion. So, I don't know. Open thread on digital versus analog.

[David Ajmee]

I just think it's very troubling that it was so controversial that I had a play that was three hours. It was such an object of controversy that people couldn't bear to have the attention span to sit with a play like that. It was so daunting for them.

[Will Butler]

You sure your play was really singled out? It's just that you paid more attention because it was your play.

[David Ajmee]

Maybe I was paying more attention. I think that feels to me more like a symptom of a kind of tiktokification of people's attention span. And that worries me that people don't know what it is to really pay attention and to devote. Devote sustained attention to a work of art.

[Will Butler]

On the other hand, the way you just described it there, no offense, makes it sound a little bit like homework. Whereas the point of a piece of theater is that you become so immersed that you kind of are holding your breath.

[David Ajmee]

Edward Albee once said to me, that's a good sentence.

[Will Butler]

However it ends.

[David Ajmee]

I know, right? He once said, entertainment isn't just about you being entertained. It's about what you are willing to entertain. I think there is a fine line between edification, you might call it homework, and a certain kind of devotion and attention that really does pay dividends and pay rewards, but that it's not always instant gratification. And there's something about that ethos. I guess that's sort of how I was raised a little bit. When I read Hegel and Kant in college, I wasn't going, oh, my God, this is so riveting. Except ultimately, it was riveting to me.

[Will Butler]

I assume that this play has brought you already and will bring more financial security that is a little bit surprising and unusual to you?

[David Ajmee]

Yes, yes, up to a point. It's not like I'm set for life. The money has been unbelievably helpful for me and has kind of healed me. Poverty is just no fun. Feeling like you're constantly trying to figure out, how am I gonna pay my rent next month? How am I gonna pay my rent? I have three months of rent I can pay. Okay, now, what about this? That's a drag, and that been alleviated, and I'm very grateful for that.

[Will Butler]

Talking today, you seem pretty normal. You seem like you've I'm not adjusted. No, no, you're just faking. I'm faking it.

[David Ajmee]

It's an ass.

[Will Butler]

Cause I know you're very shy.

[David Ajmee]

I am shy.

[Will Butler]

Is that where the sunglasses came from?

[David Ajmee]

The sunglasses came from when I was at Playwrights Horizons and I was starting to get extremely anxious about having to do press. Not even press. It started on the first rehearsal. Something happened to me. Maybe I'm getting more neurotic as I get older, but I feel really naked and very nervous and shy and embarrassed. I feel so flayed.

[Will Butler]

More than other plays?

[David Ajmee]

Yeah.

[Will Butler]

Why do you think it was for this show?

[David Ajmee]

I think this is the most nakedly honest thing that I've ever written.

[Will Butler]

Even though from the outside there's nothing or anyone in the play that remotely resembles David Ajmee.

[David Ajmee]

Right. But there were times in auditions, actors were reading scenes over and over that I thought I was gonna have a nervous breakdown. Cause I couldn't keep hearing the lines anymore. I was like, I can't handle this play.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, so you write this play.

[Will Butler]

It does as well as one could possibly wish.

[Stephen Dubner]

You win the awards, you're selling out. All kinds of real rock stars are coming to see the play. People like Jeff Bezos are coming to see it. How did this whole experience change your self image, your self identity?

[David Ajmee]

I don't really think it has. I just think I have so much to prove. That's how I look at it. It's like I have so much to prove and I have so much to myself and to the world.

[Will Butler]

Do you wish you were able to kind of. I don't want to say normalize more, but respond in the way that most people might think you would respond. Or are you very satisfied having the same gestalt you've got?

[David Ajmee]

I feel like Dolly Parton is like a good North Star. She's totally who she is. She's self possessed. She respects her. She's an artist. And that's the end of it. That's the end of the conversation. And now it's like, let's get to work and be humane and be a good citizen. That's my goal.

[Will Butler]

I will say this. I hope theater continues to exist and thrive, if only so that future people who are as obsessive and compulsive will have a productive thing to do with their lives.

[David Ajmee]

Those people are gonna find their way into this no matter what. Because when you are really driven to do this, and this is your life, you are going do it no matter what. You will lay down whatever you need to lay down to make sure that it happens. I feel like that's what I learned about myself. Like this is what I have to do. I know it. There's no other life for me. I'm going to do this. The end.

[Stephen Dubner]

That again was David Ajme in a London recording studio on the street where Wagner used to live. I'd like to thank AJME for the conversation and I'd like to thank you as, as always, for listening. Please let us know what you think. Our email is radioreconomics.com Coming up next time on the show, we head back to the real world.

[Unknown]

At one point early on, after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, before I could.

[David Ajmee]

Actually get into Ukraine, I decided that.

[Unknown]

I would meet my Ukrainian counterpart, Dmytro.

[Will Butler]

Kuleba, on the border between Poland and Ukraine and technically set foot into Ukraine.

[Stephen Dubner]

I talked to former Secretary of State Tony Mountain Blinken on the fragility of democracy, the care and feeding of autocrats, and how diplomats like him do what they do. That's next week. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app [e-mail] where we publish transcripts and show this episode was produced by Alina Coleman with help from Zach Lipinski. It was mixed by Eleanor Osborne with help from Jeremy Johnston. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abuaji, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Jasmine Klinger, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Morgan Levy, Sarah Lilly and Teo Jacobs. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers and our composer is Luis Era.

[David Ajmee]

It's not like we're completely extirpated.

[Will Butler]

Good vocabulary user.

[David Ajmee]

Oh thank you, thank you.

[Unknown]

The Freakonomics Radio Network the Hidden side of Everything.

[David Ajmee]

Stitcher.

[G]

Are you on the right track? What do you want to be remembered for? Is this really all there is? Asking big questions about your life can feel overwhelming, but the Hidden Brain podcast, hosted by me, Shankar Vedantam, is here to help you get started. All through the month of July, Hidden Brain will bring you our your 2.0 series with a special focus on purpose, passion and meaning. If you're feeling adrift, alone or burned out, this series is for you. Join us.

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